Deck redo/remodel

[venvis2001]

I live in NorCal on a hilly area. My backyard (sloping) has a nice exterior two story deck (down: 250 sqft; upstairs 160 sqft) wooden deck & has three large posts (two 16 ft 8x8 & one 8 ft 8x8 posts) - Deck attached to bacckside of the house. All 20 plus years old & show signs of rot. The posts are on concrete pillar base (done by original builder). I have to replace the entire structure (since the posts are slowly rotting). I asked couple of contractors for quotes. The deck work needs City Permit, with drawings from architects/structural engineers, etc. (that is what everyone says, which is fine). I would like to get all the required drawings done by someone (pro) & have just the posts & beams alone done (frame); We are DIY capable & can do the rest (joist/decking, rails, stairs, etc).
I got two quotes just for structural engineering drawings (including arch design/drawings - there is not much here to design -same deck dimensions or very slight modifications); One person quoted 24K just for structural drawings; Another person quoted 17K for arch drawings & structural drawings. These don't include soil report & city permit.
Does this price look reasonable? To me this looks steep price! Just for design/drawings, it may take a few days of work by the architect/structural engineer after inspecting my deck/area for an hour!

Any suggestions or experience shared will be helpful. Thanks.

[uniwelder]

Sorry. Where I live, we’re on the opposite side of the spectrum. The small deck I built 10 years ago probably cost me $50 for the permit and I was given a 10 page guideline for deck construction requirements. It listed allowable spans, steps, balusters, posts, attachments, etc. Granted it was much simpler than yours, but I’m so glad not to live in California if those are the hoops you need to jump through.

[Greystache]

I live in SoCal and my city gave me a different answer regarding permit requirements.  I was told I could do maintenance to an existing deck without submitting engineering and architectural drawings as long as the original work was permitted and I was not changing the design.

[lthenderson]

Four years ago, I paid $5k for a full set of architectural and structural drawings for an addition to our house. So, yes, the prices you are throwing out for a simply deck redo seem quite high but I live in rural VLCOL America and not in California. If it were me, I guess I would ask the two places that quoted you why the cost is so high and perhaps they might give you some insight. I have questioned quoted prices before and sometimes I have had to correct my thinking about certain things.  Another avenue is just to simply ask how they can get the quote price down to a much more tolerable level. Perhaps they have some bells and whistles you don't really need.

[Fishindude]

I can't speak for the price, but you have set this up to where it is not a very desirable project for a contractor by wanting to give them all the technical and difficult work, and keeping all the nice finish work and expensive finish materials in house.   You're probably not going to get any bargains, approaching it like that.

[bacchi]

I live in SoCal and my city gave me a different answer regarding permit requirements.  I was told I could do maintenance to an existing deck without submitting engineering and architectural drawings as long as the original work was permitted and I was not changing the design.

This is the answer.

You're not adding on to the deck, right? Same piers, same beams location, same joists location, but just replaced with new lumber? Then it's not a new deck. It's maintenance.

[Sandi_k]

@Dicey - bat signal for contractor input...

[affordablehousing]

This all depends on your neighbors. The easiest thing in my mind would be to support and jack the deck, replace the posts, and call it a day. If you want to spend $30K on new Ipe decking that's up to you but super easy to do yourself. I'm not sure why you'd deal with replacing the rest of the structure if it isn't rotten.

In the Bay Area, if you want to do a project the "right" way, aka, the Atherton way, this could easily cost $100K. It's a big deck. If you want to do it the Sacramento way, and you just "get it done" this could cost $4K. A big part of this is how design-forward you get with this, and the value of your house. If you put a crappy deck on a $4MM house, you are just making a liability for the next people to tear off and redo. If you do it the right way, really do it the right way, and have a landscape architect provide some input.

Or like I said, just replace the posts with a supported deck. You can borrow house jacks from a lot of the libraries around us.

[Dicey]

@Dicey - bat signal for contractor input...

Batsignal received. DH wants to know how the posts are attached to the piers. Can you attach photos?

Pro tip: if the photos won't load, they're too big. Re size and try again. If that doesn't work, shoot me a PM.

[sonofsven]

I guess I'll chime in; I had to think about what I would say.
I think the price is outrageous, I'm also not surprised at the price.
You've got a lot of red flags right from the start: Northern California, and hilly.
So, earthquake potential, expensive real estate, lots of bureaucracy, maybe even litigious neighbors?
As a contractor, or a structural engineer, there is tons of liability here and you can be sure they want to cover their a**.
But the structure you're describing does not sound very complicated to justify such an extreme price.
I agree that it might be possible to think of this as a repair, or maintenance, and simply replace what needs replacing, possibly with some upgrades, as long as the footings were substantial and still intact with no settling. Twenty years old? Do you have the original plans, and the original building permit? Was the deck originally built under the building permit for the house or was it added afterwards? If it was inspected and approved twenty years ago I would feel better about just rebuilding it now.
I also agree with Dicey that how the posts are attached is important. It's also important that the deck ledger is securely attached to the framing. I use deck ledger screws. A good lumber yard with a Simpson catalog (maker of metal anchors, hold downs, straps, etc, all stuff for earthquake country) can point you in the right direction here, they sell the stuff every day.

Also , where are the posts rotting? They shouldn't be rotting at this point, in my opinion, so that worries me that the deck may have not been built (or designed?) well from the start.

[BudgetSlasher]

I cannot speak the requirements of NorCal ... I live in an area where the CEO basically collects permits fees, the only thing the inspect is septic installs, any other questions result it "we do not have a code". I've asked about decks and he gave me a how to build a deck handout that was really just advertising for strong-ties.

People have already pointed out your locations is going to add costs. To me is also feels like you have a job people don't want (redesign an existing deck or partially build a new deck); there legit reasons for this, it is boring, it omits the most profitable parts for building, and it muddies the waters about who is at fault should something go wrong. But they will do it if you pay enough.

I also agree that it seems odd the posts are rotting so soon. There are plenty of places that I could see water getting trapped and rotting at 20 years, but the posts are not that. Are you able to post these signs of rot or have you determined what might have contributed.

If the posts are the only rotten potions and the rest of the deck is in good condition and safe, you should not have to replace the deck. You, or a contractor, should be able to install temporary supports and swap out the deck.

If I were in your shoes I would talk to the town and see what permits and/or materials (if any, but NorCal so probably) are needed for maintenance or repairs. And go from there.

[zolotiyeruki]

This is the answer.

You're not adding on to the deck, right? Same piers, same beams location, same joists location, but just replaced with new lumber? Then it's not a new deck. It's maintenance.

Seconded.  Or thirded.  Or whatever.  Jack the deck up, replace the posts, secure deck to new posts.

Heck, if you're ambitious, you could do a whole Ship-of-Theseus thing :)

[venvis2001]

Thank you all for your replies. I am attaching a few pictures of the deck showing the 'rots' at the bottom of the posts.
I am thinking of the following options:
1. Remove the entire deck (the flat boards & railings are also very bad; I plan to replace them anyways in all the options) & new posts at the same locations: raise the concrete 'pillars' & have posts installed without touching concretes (that is what caused the moisture to stay & rot the bottoms). New deck & railings. Based on the materials, etc - this could cost $$$. City permits not required (I checked with the city).
2. Remove the entire deck; New deck with some extensions (I have more space to extend the deck & the view); If I extend, I need new drawings, reports, City Permits, etc. since I will end up adding one or two more posts. This will also cost $$$.
3. Jack existing beams, cut posts at bottom (12 inches or so), raise concrete, refix posts; This will keep existing posts/beams/joists; but the other parts of the deck to be replaced; no City permit needed; Least expensive option. My wife doesn't like this option. She prefers to redo the deck & make it look much better with good quality construction & materials.
I am leaning toward either option 1 & 2 even though they may cost more, we plan to definitely continue living here & enjoy the deck/views.
I will update once I make my decision. The City told us that they don't need fancy drawings for any existing structures (but they need basics) + new structural drawings (if needed based on option). Our City is very friendly and give good advice.
Thanks

[venvis2001]

I guess I'll chime in; I had to think about what I would say.
I think the price is outrageous, I'm also not surprised at the price.
You've got a lot of red flags right from the start: Northern California, and hilly.
So, earthquake potential, expensive real estate, lots of bureaucracy, maybe even litigious neighbors?
As a contractor, or a structural engineer, there is tons of liability here and you can be sure they want to cover their a**.
But the structure you're describing does not sound very complicated to justify such an extreme price.
I agree that it might be possible to think of this as a repair, or maintenance, and simply replace what needs replacing, possibly with some upgrades, as long as the footings were substantial and still intact with no settling. Twenty years old? Do you have the original plans, and the original building permit? Was the deck originally built under the building permit for the house or was it added afterwards? If it was inspected and approved twenty years ago I would feel better about just rebuilding it now.
I also agree with Dicey that how the posts are attached is important. It's also important that the deck ledger is securely attached to the framing. I use deck ledger screws. A good lumber yard with a Simpson catalog (maker of metal anchors, hold downs, straps, etc, all stuff for earthquake country) can point you in the right direction here, they sell the stuff every day.

Also , where are the posts rotting? They shouldn't be rotting at this point, in my opinion, so that worries me that the deck may have not been built (or designed?) well from the start.

We don't have the original plans (we bought it new from Standard Pacific, they don't give original plans; we asked the City; they don't seem to have it). City permits would have been given to the original builder. The deck was part of the original new house. So, I am 100% sure, it is to the standards required by City, I am very confident about the concrete pillar base. Yes, my assumption is the new built houses inspected/approved by the city. We will use one of the good lumber yards in NorCal if we go that route & we have spoken to them already. Like you said, they will give good direction on the materials to use.
thanks.

[zolotiyeruki]

If it were me, I would seriously consider raising the concrete and shortening the posts.  The rot doesn't look too bad, so I don't think the whole post needs to go, and getting the wood further from the ground will help with long term durability.

[sonofsven]

I would use pt posts but the most important thing is to install a standoff post base there, another Simpson product, I think it's an AB66
It's a galvanized metal bracket you install onto the concrete, drill with a roto hammer and install a 4"-6" Titen anchor screw (that's actually the correct spelling). Yes, another Simpson product.
This will keep the wood off the concrete.

[BudgetSlasher]

If it were me, I would seriously consider raising the concrete and shortening the posts.  The rot doesn't look too bad, so I don't think the whole post needs to go, and getting the wood further from the ground will help with long term durability.

Taking the post out of direct contact with the concrete will help too. There are plenty of brack options (I've used ABA ZMAX in the past) that will prevent the post from sitting on the concrete and moisture wicking through the concrete into the post.

I'd lean toward option 3 or option 3 with replacing the posts in their entirety. I am not sure I understand the OPs wife's objection all the ugly or worn materials can also be replaced (deck boards, railing, and so on) or look much better with better quality materials. Presumably if you rebuild the framing will be made out of the same materials in the same size.

[Greystache]

If you choose not to raise the concrete, I would recommend that you route the downspouts away from the bottom of the posts. 

[affordablehousing]

This looks more like a "looking for reasons to redo it" rather then, it becoming unsafe. I would go al out on this with ipe, nice construction, larger deck, engineered, the whole kazoo. Go big!

[uniwelder]

This looks more like a "looking for reasons to redo it" rather then, it becoming unsafe. I would go al out on this with ipe, nice construction, larger deck, engineered, the whole kazoo. Go big!

Of course thats what you would do, affordablehousing, and the OP does seem to lean in that direction as well.  Those that call ourselves mustachians would not.

[affordablehousing]

Well Uniwelder, I think the OP has been presented with a lot of good options, both truly mustachian (do nothing) and not mustachian at all (my suggestion). He or she also got plenty of 5 hour solutions, that could be dealt with with moderate effort, and dismissed them. What's the fun of the forum if we don't inspire people to an extreme? Either just let the deck be and move on to other worries, or make it a big deal and blow it out. It may seem crazy, but plenty of folks are silly enough on our local Craigslists to give away bunches of ipe deckboards, and I've found many at the local salvage yard for $2 a foot, or about a third of retail. I know not everyone delights in home improvement, nor do they like scrounging for material, but in my mind there's nothing worse than a rebuilt, half-assed anything.

[nereo]

Well Uniwelder, I think the OP has been presented with a lot of good options, both truly mustachian (do nothing) and not mustachian at all (my suggestion). He or she also got plenty of 5 hour solutions, that could be dealt with with moderate effort, and dismissed them. What's the fun of the forum if we don't inspire people to an extreme? Either just let the deck be and move on to other worries, or make it a big deal and blow it out. It may seem crazy, but plenty of folks are silly enough on our local Craigslists to give away bunches of ipe deckboards, and I've found many at the local salvage yard for $2 a foot, or about a third of retail. I know not everyone delights in home improvement, nor do they like scrounging for material, but in my mind there's nothing worse than a rebuilt, half-assed anything.

Why do you think "do nothing" is the most mustachian approach here?
From my experience Pete (the "original mustachian") would opt for something along the lines of what zolotiyeruki or sonofsven suggested, doing the work himself of course and maybe enlisting a few of his buddies in exchange for helping them out with other projects. 

[affordablehousing]

The posts looked ok to me, not an immediate issue and I would assume another 15 years from the deck as-is. The time spent doing this project, then two other projects for the friends that helped me is a significant cost or burden.

[nereo]

The posts looked ok to me, not an immediate issue and I would assume another 15 years from the deck as-is. The time spent doing this project, then two other projects for the friends that helped me is a significant cost or burden.

ok, fair enough.
Hard to tell from photos, but if the posts were "sound enough" at the base I'd probably let them go another season before doing what was suggested by zolotiyeruki. I was operating under the assumption that the posts should be replaced now, but I see you had stated otherwise.  Thanks for responding.