Ceiling Leak

[153]

I am hoping that the mustache universe has a timely answer to my question.

There is a bulge in the ceiling in my bathroom from a leak from the condo above ours. This is not the first leak- maybe 6 months ago we had another major one, although this is at least cosmetically worse.

Issues:
1) Most immediate: how to handle the approx 2ft by 1ft bulge in the ceiling? Poke a hole? Leave it alone? I've already placed a bucket underneath and removed the linens and TP from the room, and put some old towels on the floor at the threshold.

2) We rent privately from an owner, and the family upstairs rents privately from another owner. I spoke to our LL, and he seems to think, from his conversation with the other LL, that this is the result of over zealous toddler bath time or some other tenant-related issue. (FWIW, my LL lived here prior to us, and he never had an issue with leaks). I spoke to the husband upstairs today, and he seemed baffled when I asked if they noticed a leak. What is the likelihood that this is a plumbing/fixture issue that the other landlord needs to address? Are there any clues I can look for from my end? I am a little bit feeling like the other LL is quick to dismiss this as an issue of improper usage, rather than something he needs to repair. Not sure what I can do here, since my LL seems content to accept that and hand the matter over to his homeowners insurance.

I can forsee this becoming a circus of us going through our LL, them going through theirs, the LLs insurance companies duking out payment, and would appreciate any insight on how to preclude that. If anyone thinks cross posting this in the LL section makes sense, I can do that.

[Greg]

I find it hard to believe any LL would not investigate a leak immediately and thoroughly.  If there's a leak that continues, and brings the ceiling down, they could be liable for damages to your family or property.  Put a reminder in writing, and check your renter's insurance to see if water damage would be covered, which is unlikely.  If it's a sewage leak, there are health considerations beyond potential mold issues.

If it were my own place, I'd use a finish nail to poke a hole in the center of the bulge.  This could result in the bulge breaking and a huge mess, or a dribble of water or effluent, or nothing.

Eventually the ceiling will need to be opened up to see if the leak is active and where it's from.  Likely a tub drain or overflow.  Once the leak is fixed, the ceiling will have to be fixed.

In some states if a LL doesn't fix a problem like this you can have it done and withhold the cost from your rent, but that's kind of a nuclear option and always results in hard feelings.

[GuitarStv]

Once drywall gets wet and bulges it needs to be cut out and replaced.  This isn't a particularly difficult job, but it's time consuming and very, very messy (between the cutting and sanding the drywall mud you're going to have TONS of dust floating around).

The leak could be from a kid splashing lots of water around in the bathroom that's finding a way through the floor boards or some missing caulk around the tub seal.  If the pipes have developed a drip I would expect the area on the ceiling to never dry out.  You would really need to take a look behind the drywall, and around the bathroom upstairs to find out for sure.  Of course, as a tenant the only thing you're responsible for s reporting the problem to your landlord and getting it fixed.

I'd make it very clear to your landlord that you want the problem fixed ASAP.  That puts the ball in his court to figure out the problem.  If he doesn't and it leaks through again he's responsible again.

[Nords]

Issues:
1) Most immediate: how to handle the approx 2ft by 1ft bulge in the ceiling? Poke a hole? Leave it alone? I've already placed a bucket underneath and removed the linens and TP from the room, and put some old towels on the floor at the threshold.

Poke a hole-- very, very gingerly, and perhaps using a power drill or power screwdriver with a small bit.  Stand by for leaks with a rag and a two-gallon bucket.

Every time the upstairs tenant drains the bathtub or the sink, or flushes the toilet, you'll get more drips out of the ceiling. 

When we got the dreaded "ceiling bulge" from a roof leak, I drained a couple quarts of water through the hole.  The soaking-wet "dry"wall was squishy & flexible so we braced a 2'x2' sheet of plywood against the ceiling with an eight-foot 4"x4" and a car jack.  It dried out (48 hours after the rainstorm) and regained some of its structural integrity.  But then of course we found the leak and plugged it.  The drywall lasted for another six years until our major renovation and roof alterations.

When your landlord's plumber cuts out that portion of the ceiling, the source of the leak will probably be all too apparent. 

2) We rent privately from an owner, and the family upstairs rents privately from another owner. I spoke to our LL, and he seems to think, from his conversation with the other LL, that this is the result of over zealous toddler bath time or some other tenant-related issue.
What is the likelihood that this is a plumbing/fixture issue that the other landlord needs to address? Are there any clues I can look for from my end? I am a little bit feeling like the other LL is quick to dismiss this as an issue of improper usage, rather than something he needs to repair. Not sure what I can do here, since my LL seems content to accept that and hand the matter over to his homeowners insurance.

Well, the technical plumbing term for your landlord's rationale is "bullshit".  There's a leak.  It's not leaking when there's no water (or other fluids), but regardless of how the water hits the floor (or the drain pipe) it's not supposed to leak on to your ceiling.

You could motivate your landlord with the news that you think the ceiling is turning moldy from an upstairs sewage leak (which you'll see on the upper surface of the drywall as soon as it's cut out), and that you're pretty sure your local landlord regulating authorities would feel that it needs to be repaired now. 

Insurance companies hate to hear the words "moldy" and "sewage" associated with their insured properties.  Especially when it's accompanied by the word "liability"...

[jay]

After poking a small hole and draining as much water as possible, as others suggested, you can use a hair dryer to dry the sheetrock.

[Kevan]

The hole can be poked with a screwdriver or just about anything else.

The sheetrock needs to come down eventually because it's gotten soaked enough to bulge.  There's nothing to be gained by delaying its removal, so remove it promptly.  Just knock a hole in it with a hammer and tear it open with your hand or with the claw of the hammer.  Once it's open, as noted above, a strong flashlight will indicate where the water came from.  That will cut down on the landlords' buck-passing and evasive maneuvers.

The most likely cause is water running along the front or rear edge  of the tub and falling onto the floor. There are many other good possibilities, such as a drip where the shower arm screws into the ell, a drip from a hot or cold handle that runs back into a wall, a slip joint on the tub drain, or possibly a leak at the toilet's wax seal.  It's amazing how often it's a perfectly visible leak at the toilet's shutoff valve, but folks miss it because of bad lighting.

[TrMama]

Doesn't the condo's HOA usually get involved in situations like these? Isn't that what it's for? Mediating maintenance/repair issues between units? I'd give the HOA a call.

[paddedhat]

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with poking a hole in a ceiling that you do not own, and have zero responsibility for maintaining. Particularly in light of the fact that the issue is caused by a failure in a property that your LL doesn't even own!
A few facts here.
#1-Both LLs are either clueless, or unfit for the mission. There is no way for    anybody to diagnose a plumbing leak, determine that it is attributable to a "toddler", and dismiss it, until the damaged ceiling area has been removed for a visual inspection by a competent person.  With the silly drivel about out of control toddlers, both LLs have made it clear that they fail to meet the definition of "competent" in this case.
#2  You DO NOT go off poking holes in a bulge, located above your head, when said bulge could be the bottom of a bowl shaped reservoir of contaminated sewage!!!! If you need a visual, you could be talking about liquid shit cascading down your face, while you are looking up, screwdriver in hand. Still think plumbers are overpaid?
 #3 You need to tell your worthless LL that his failure to appreciate the gravity of the potential health issues in this case is disappointing, but that unacceptable.  You then explain that he has 48hrs. to correct the problem, or you will hire the appropriate experts to do so.

I don't care if your LL is a saint, and you want to bear his children, this is wrong, and he or she needs a boot in the ass.

[153]

Hi All- Thank you for your input! Your generous and quick responses confirmed much of what I was thinking. Here's where we stand now:

The bubble tore open, presumably from the weakened integrity. A smallish amount of water drained out.

My LL did contact the HOA (as renters, the HOA won't work directly with us, just with the LL) for advice on getting the upstairs guy to cooperate. The upstairs landlord did some kind-of-hilarious-if-we-weren't-talking-about-my-house posturing (My dad and I will be by next week to take a look kind of thing), but my LL was like no- professionals, the kind that are bonded and insured, and now.

The upstairs LL and my LL's handyman came over last night to inspect the damage. Verdict: surprise! There *is* a leak! Handyman seems to think it's the pipe supplying water to the toilet. They went upstairs to inspect that home, and then the handyman came back down and told us that both units have water damage, and that the next steps are that the landlords need to talk and decide who is going to pay for what, and if upstairs LL wants to go through his homeowner's ins. As per the handyman, until he receives deposit/payment for the work, he's not going to fix it. He can't fix our ceiling until he replaces their plumbing. I asked if turning off the valve to their toilet would stop the leak in the meantime, and was told NO.

So where I stand is: under a hole where the soggy drywall was removed last night. I could live with the inconvenience of an ugly hole, but:

1) The leak is still there, and the bucket I had to catch it now is ineffective, because rather than running down the intact bulge to the lowest point to drip it now drips along the entire length.

2) Handyman said upstairs LL is "going out of town on business until Monday", and said he definitely wouldn't know before then what he was planning on doing. I was also given the impression that upstairs LL still doesn't think he needs to pay for damage to our house, and is generally going to drag his feet on this.

So my bullshit alarm fired a few times last night, and I'm hoping you will again be able to help me.
-What is a reasonable time frame for this sort of repair to be initiated and completed? Both for the leak and the drywall replacement.
-Am I nuts to think that it's not okay to leave the leak until Monday-at-the-earliest?
-What can I do to make this go faster? I do believe that my LL understands that this is a problem, and wants to fix it, and I don't want to be an a-hole tenant, but the money conflict and insurance questions are a big fat load of not my problem.

Thanks!

[bogart]

Glad some progress has been made.  Assuming you can talk to your own LL in a calm tone and that he or she is a reasonable person, I think I'd contact them and say that this is detracting significantly from the value of the rental and you'd like a reduction in rent while it gets sorted out.  If thing are really bad, you might want to go stay in a hotel for the weekend or something (I'm not clear e.g. whether there is another bathroom in your home you can use or if this is the only one?) and could of course identify the cost of that as the cost, but you could also just pick some reasonable ballpark number and propose it and see what he/she says.  That shifts the incentive (further) for seeing the work gets done in a timely fashion.

I don't know about the other LL's tardiness/availability, but certainly it is my experience that things like getting a plumber in can take several days, so given that it's now Friday I don't think waiting 'til Monday is nuts.  That said, you want to be sure that this gets prioritized (within reason), see above ...

[GuitarStv]

Take a rope or string or something and loop it in the area where the water is dripping from, then let it hang down to a bucket.  Hopefully the water should soak into and follow the string/rope to the bucket so your whole bathroom floor isn't getting soaked.

[Greg]

I'm a DIYer at heart, but also a contractor and landlord, and am shocked at the landlord response.  This is the kind of thing that needs to be handled immediately, not when they have time.  If I had this happening to my rental, and was not going to be around, I'd just have my "handyman" (I don't have one, it's me) fix it while I was away.

Hopefully this gets resolved quickly and without too much more work on your part.  Sounds like a headache.

[Guizmo]

I'm a landlord and your situation happened to me in the condo I own. It was very easy to work with the LL upstairs in my case. If I was you, I would tell your landlord that you believe the situation is potentially hazardous to your health and if you see no progress being made, you will call the proper authorities to investigate. At least in the city where I am from, the city inspectors would be on it like flies on .....