Ceiling Joist Question

[brkuhn1]

I noticed a crack in the drywall on my ceiling so i crawled up in the attic and saw that there was a ceiling joist (hope i'm using the right term) that seeemd odd right where the crack was happening. I didn't have my phone to take a picture so in order to avoid crawling up there again i've attempted to draw it out in sketchup the best i could.

The joist is made up of 2 2x6's running East and West where it meets up near a set of 3 2x6's running North and South in the middle. It does not actually attach to the 2x6's running Norht and South nor do the 2 2x6's touch.

It appears to me, even though i don't know my top from bottom on this subject, that there should possibly be a support or wall under this joist but there is nothing under the 2x6's running East/West or the set of 3 2x6's running North/South. Any ideas from fellow mustachians on how to fix this joist or if i even have anything to worry about.

[Milspecstache]

Nice sketchup!

So the joists are not tied into the ceiling or to the floor below in that spot?  I agree that it seems strange that there is nothing carrying the load below.  Any chance there used to be a wall there that was removed?  How old is your house?

[Fireman]

Nice sketchup!

Indeed!  The knots in the boards really give the drawing depth! 

At any rate, it appears that the triple 2x6 in the center should be supported from the bottom or tied secured to the rafters above it.

[brkuhn1]

Well thanks for the compliments on the sketch up. If anyone needs sketch ups done let me know. I really enjoy using that program.

Looking at my house (built in 68ish) it appears there probably was a wall there at one time... how would I go about tying them to the rafter because a support or wall under that spot would really look terrible and make this small house seem even smaller.

Also another idea I wondered was could I put another 2x6 to bridge the gap in the odd one and lag bolt them together

[Weedy Acres]

So the joists in question touch, but are not attached to, the triple beam coming perpendicular to it?

Easy enough to attach them, either:
1. Nail the joist into the beam
2. Use a reinforcing angle like this, nailed on the inside corners of the joint. http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/l-ls-ga.asp#

Does the beam just truncate there and float?  Or is it resting on a wall on one end?

[brkuhn1]

The north end of the triple rests on the outside wall and the south end is just sitting there. The joist in question is about an inch from the triple 

[Fireman]

I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night but I would think that you could secure the 'floating' section to the rafter or ridgepole above it.

[Greg]

Probably a supporting wall was removed at some point without paying attention to the detail you've noticed.  Fit a sister rafter in the gap (one sister rafter will be the thickness of the gap) between the joists and the 3x set of joists.  Add another to the other side of the 2 separate rafters.  If it were me I'd jack up the area from below to relieve any loading (check with level on the ceiling) before doing this.  The sistered rafters should be at least as long on each side as 1/2 the existing rafter span.  Best is the full length if you can get it up there.  Use (3) 10d nails every 16"-24" along the length of each sister (nail for both sides into existing).  Remove jack from below, repair plaster.

Something like this should fix the situation and prevent future problems.

[brkuhn1]

I crawled up there and did some measuring I probably will not be able to get sister rafters as long as you recommended up there. Could I use a metal plate on both sides of the joist and then run bolts through both plates and the joist. If this plan is acceptable how long an what gauge of plateshould I use. The length of a full joist is 23 feet.

[Greg]

What's the longest board you think you can fish up there?

Plates would probably work but there are few pre-designed options.    Just about anything you add would help. 

A "best design" option would be to install a beam over the existing 3x center rafter assembly that reaches out over the floating rafter ends, and then use top flange hangers for 2x12's to reach down and carry the floating rafter ends.  The beam would have to extend back about 4' and be strapped to the 3x rafter assembly to prevent the opposite end lifting.

[Weedy Acres]

What's further to the south in your sketchup?  Are we at the edge of the house?  Are there more E/W joists?  Any other N/S joists that don't quite butt up to the floating one or something?

[brkuhn1]

Further south is full joists, directly under the middle of the full joists is a wall which i would assume is the load bearing wall. Under the N/S floating joist there is no wall to the South but the Exterior wall to the North. all the other e/w joists butt up perpendicular to the N/S floater and are secured to it with a metal hanger.

I've updated the sketchup to hopefully show my situation a little clearer

[brkuhn1]

I just realized i forgot to put a part of it in the sketchup. The boards running at an angle are nailed to the N/S 3 (and also nailed to all the other joists through out the house excluding the split in the half one, i just didn't put them in so i could take a clear screenshot) but dont seem to be doing anything because you touch them and they move freely other than the nails that are in them (they aren't tight against the n/s 3).

Sorry for asking a million questions on this and thanks for all the help btw, this forum is awesome and I hope to someday be knowledgable enough about something to help contribute to it.

[brkuhn1]

What's the longest board you think you can fish up there?

To answer your question i could probably get 5-6 foot long boards up there.

[Fireman]

Can you extend the NS3 to the partition wall and make it load bearing?  Butt joints aren't the strongest but better than floating.

[Weedy Acres]

That's what I was thinking.  Use strap ties to extend the N/S 3-beam to the wall a couple joists down.  Slice through those joists, just the width of the NS3 and use joist hangers to attach them to the beam. 

Someone messed up when they pulled out that old wall.

[Spork]

What about a sandwich of steal plate or 2x wood (as long as you can make it) that are bolted every few inches to sister the two fragments together?  I'm not a carpenter or anything even close... just trying to think of a solution that is doable in the area you have.

[brkuhn1]

Well I had a buddy that knows construction pretty well come over and look (only cost a few beers) at it and had a decent solution. He sistered a 6 foot 2x6 on the South side. Ripped a 6 foot 2x6 down to about a 1.25x6 for a spacer on the North side and then put a 2x6 on the spacer and butted up to each each side of the n/s3 and hooked it on using a hurricane clip.

His reaction when he looked at it made me laugh though. He spent at least 5 minutes up there looking around and every 30 seconds he'd say "why the f$%^ did they do that... that's stupid... what the f$%^"

[Fireman]

His reaction when he looked at it made me laugh though. He spent at least 5 minutes up there looking around and every 30 seconds he'd say "why the f$%^ did they do that... that's stupid... what the f$%^"

Happy for a solution!  I can definitely think of a few times that's been said!