Author Topic: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!  (Read 2013 times)

ChpBstrd

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Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« on: October 12, 2018, 07:35:50 PM »
A 3BR / 2BA house was recently foreclosed in my area that has most of the features I'm looking for and can probably be had for $80-100k. If I could obtain a fixed-up house for under $150k all-in, the math says I'd shave a little over a year off my working career (and have a freshly remodeled house instead of a worn out place). I am currently about 5y from retirement at age 45, and this would make it 4 or 3.5y. Plus, the house is in a good school zone for the kiddo, is 5 miles to work, and in a safe walkable neighborhood across the street from a small park.

The entire remod job is too much detail, and finances are not a problem, so let's just talk foundation work in this post.

It's a typical 2-story Craftsman with a central staircase, so half the weight of the 2nd story and roof transmits down the walls of the staircase to the floor joists. The downstairs area is about 30x30'.

The floor joists that span the house are nailed to each other in the middle of the house, and the middle is supported by a pair of 2x10s resting on brick piers. The piers have settled and tilted over the past eight decades, causing the support beam to tilt the opposite way. I estimate the sag at between an inch and two inches, and some twisting has occurred causing the hardwood floors to separate at the bottom of the stairs. At some point probably in the last 20 years, someone installed additional 6x6 treated support beams (i.e. deck posts) and piers on each side of the tilting original 2x10s - but not under the staircase. These supports are mostly under the middle of rooms instead of under the staircase walls as would be ideal, yet they are probably responsible for preventing further collapse. It appears the staircase continues to transmit weight to the middle of the house, flexing the floor in the middle downward because the nearest support is several feet away. The floor joists are somewhat cantilevered, and therefore sagging under tons of weight. The crawl space is semi-tight, but in amazing condition with no signs of rot, mold, or termites.

The plan would be to slide a 20 foot "I" beam made of 3/8" steel (already available) under the center of the house right next to the existing, tilting beam. Placement would be directly under where the joists are nailed together. Small logs would be used to roll the new beam into position, Egyptian-style. Three large concrete footings would be poured and cinder blocks filled with concrete would form the piers for the new beam. The beam would be placed on top of the piers. Additional temporary footings would be poured under the beam for the purpose of supporting very large hydraulic bottle jacks. Then I say "hold my beer", crawl under there, and jack the middle of the house up as things creak and pop over my head. I would use tight strings to measure level against the bottom of the floor joists. When level or slightly above level is obtained, I would use shims to wedge the I beam to the piers and then lower the jacks. After this is done, it may be necessary to re-shim the newer support beams on each side.

I know this sounds intimidating to most people, but I've done this procedure with two other houses on a DIY basis - just never anything this big and never without ripping the floor out. In the context of the larger project, the foundation work is a predecessor to all subsequent tasks. That is, you want all the cracks to form and flexing to occur BEFORE you install a new bathroom, paint the drywall, or tile the kitchen. Definitely jack it up before you move additional weight into the house! So if I DIY the foundation, I have to complete that task before I can hire contractors or start on literally anything else. During that time, I'm making two mortgage payments and unable to sell or move out of my more expensive house.

Questions:

1) My main concern is whether the floor joists themselves are warped and will not come un-warped when I jack them up. How many of you think the circa 1930 2x10s will remain bowed even when no longer cantilevered?

2) I guesstimate I would save $5,000-$8,000 doing the above work. Worth it? In terms of savings/time to FIRE, we're talking a couple months. Time to perform the work is probably eight to ten entire weekends. However, a setback delays the entire project. During the time I carry two mortgages, I'm paying a shitload of interest - maybe so much I would come out ahead paying a contractor to get it done ASAP, allowing me to sell my current house more quickly. The math gets very assumption-laden, but the gist is doing it DIY is financially risky due to interest costs. That is, assuming a contractor would actually get to it faster. 

3) Is the plan over-complicated in some way I do not comprehend? For example, another approach would be to bolt additional 2x10s to the original support beam, jack that up, and then rebuild the piers. The question is whether I could get away with knocking out the old piers in order to straighten the existing beam or if doing so would cause the joists to break/twist because it may still be holding up significant weight. Creative ideas are welcome.

Pics:
1) General view of the tilting main beam and crawl space conditions
2) Newer support posts holding up the middle of a room. There is one of these on each side of the main beam, a few feet away from the main beam.
3) Close-up of how the joists are nailed together above the main beam
4) Close-up of the tilting main beam
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 07:37:39 PM by ChpBstrd »

jpdx

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 12:31:14 AM »
Are cinder blocks the best choice for supporting the I-beam, or would it be better to pour a sonotube?

If the joists are warped, can you fix this by adding perpendicular blocking?

Can you get a contractor to give you a bid and see what they recommend? Then you can make a more educated choice if DIY is the way to go.

former player

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 01:21:17 AM »
I may be wrong, but didn't @Prospector do something like this?

Papa bear

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 06:04:09 AM »
Sounds like you know what you’re doing and what to expect.  Your plan sounds reasonable.

I jacked up part of a house (1910 era) about an inch near the staircase.  Everything creaked and popped but I had no issues structurally.  I used joist hangers to keep the floor joists attached back to the double beam that I moved after leveling it back out.

My only concern, personally, would be working in the crawl space.  How much room do you have there to work with?  Sounds like a pain in the butt!!


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Le Poisson

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2018, 07:24:42 AM »
I may be wrong, but didn't @Prospector do something like this?

Indeed I did.

To make the lifting easier, and if your reno plans are to gut/redo, you may want to consider stripping the plaster off the walls above first.  It will mean less load to move, and the walls will be able to move more easily.

Is there actual foundation/footer work to be done, or just the piers need replacing? On ours an exterior foundation wall has bowed, and I now wish I had paid a house mover to lift the whole thing and redo the foundation. Would have been a $20K repair, but no future issues. I'm headed up today to review the situation and see how much movement there has been over the course of this summer. Tenants haven't reported any issues though, so that's a good thing.

Beware before you open things up - at our place, what we thought was just rotten wood turned out to be a powder-post beetle infestation from years ago. While the beams were all 8X8 barn beams, the beetles had reduced their integrity to something close to that of cardboard. Our home inspector had missed it. A contractor who did a walk-through flagged the problem by tapping the beams with a hammer and collecting the frass that fell out. It took him under a minute to identify which beams were compromised. We only replaced the worst one.

If you care to look at ours, the story is here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/the-barnhouse-transformation/ - jacking the house is around post 26.

Fishindude

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2018, 08:05:31 AM »
Sounds like a reasonable plan, however I'd probably use a self constructed laminated lumber beam as it would be much easier to handle and could be built right at the work area.   I would also pour some new foundation pads and use several steel jack posts as the supports, which gives you the ability to gradually raise and adjust the house to level.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 09:35:59 AM »
I may be wrong, but didn't @Prospector do something like this?

Indeed I did.

To make the lifting easier, and if your reno plans are to gut/redo, you may want to consider stripping the plaster off the walls above first.  It will mean less load to move, and the walls will be able to move more easily.

Is there actual foundation/footer work to be done, or just the piers need replacing? On ours an exterior foundation wall has bowed, and I now wish I had paid a house mover to lift the whole thing and redo the foundation. Would have been a $20K repair, but no future issues. I'm headed up today to review the situation and see how much movement there has been over the course of this summer. Tenants haven't reported any issues though, so that's a good thing.

Beware before you open things up - at our place, what we thought was just rotten wood turned out to be a powder-post beetle infestation from years ago. While the beams were all 8X8 barn beams, the beetles had reduced their integrity to something close to that of cardboard. Our home inspector had missed it. A contractor who did a walk-through flagged the problem by tapping the beams with a hammer and collecting the frass that fell out. It took him under a minute to identify which beams were compromised. We only replaced the worst one.

If you care to look at ours, the story is here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/the-barnhouse-transformation/ - jacking the house is around post 26.

Excellent series, but it makes me want to just mortgage an already-done house and work in a cubicle longer!

Adam Zapple

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 07:19:14 AM »
I'd consider it assuming that the finished product will be worth the time and money investment.  Maybe you could make an offer contingent on a structural engineer's report. 

As far as the flooring holding you back, it is hard to say but I have a roof section over my garage that is sagging due to footings settling.  The sheathing is 1X6 tongue and groove.  I was told it would need to be removed in order to return the structure to proper form.  If your flooring is old/original and does not have a subfloor, you could consider running a sawzall between the floor joists and floorboards, jacking the house up, then nailing the boards in place again.  This is assuming face nailing will be aesthetically OK.  I tend to think leaving the flooring in place will work against you.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 07:20:48 AM by Adam Zapple »

TomTX

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Re: Buying house w/ collapsing foundation - pics!
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2018, 12:52:03 PM »
Sounds like a reasonable plan, however I'd probably use a self constructed laminated lumber beam as it would be much easier to handle and could be built right at the work area.   I would also pour some new foundation pads and use several steel jack posts as the supports, which gives you the ability to gradually raise and adjust the house to level.

This. Why bother with all the effort, mess and time delay of concrete piers?

So, my grandmother-in-law lived in an old, basically unmaintained Craftsman. When we went to visit one time, I noticed the living room floor would sag alarmingly when stepped upon.

Upon investigation, she had a couple of floor joists with rotten sections, and the support beam underneath had tilted since the rotten ones were on one side of the steel jack post. So, support beam wasn't supporting.

Available resources: One Saturn, misc old hand tools onsite.

Action: Measure carefully, and off to Home Depot. Get Home Depot to cut lumber to size. Load into the Saturn - great squared off passthrough from the trunk, BTW. Amazing car for hauling lumber. Wife had to ride behind me so we could put the other front seat down - but temporary post, temporary beam, replacement joists, new beam - we just loaded it all.

Next, set up a temporary spreader beam and post offset from the jack post far enough to be under sound joists. Use the car jack to gently lift the center of the house while MrsTx holds the old wooden support beam in place and grandma holds the steel jack post steady to keep it from falling.

Remove old wooden support beam, set jack post aside. Knock out rotten wood, sister new joists in place. Place new support beam on the old jack post, everyone back in place and slowly drop the car jack.

Completed in less than a day.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!