Author Topic: Bike brakes - wet weather  (Read 9749 times)

JT

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Bike brakes - wet weather
« on: April 19, 2013, 04:07:32 PM »
Hi Moustachians

The ol' commuter bike is a great all rounder, except for the one achilles heal - the brakes.

In wet weather the linear brakes are simply not pulling me up and this has lead to some knuckle clenching moments.

I've tried braking before braking but that doesn't improve things much.

So, here are my queries:

Does anyone currently have great linear brake pads that are good in winter? (ie heavy rain and road dirt)
What are disc brakes like? - mechanical vs hydraulic

It would be great to find a solution for the linear brakes.

But at the end of the day, a safe commute is paramount.

Thanks for reading :)




 

« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 04:19:35 PM by JT »

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 06:41:29 PM »
Except for reduced tyre traction, I find the hydraulic disk brakes on my bike utterly unaffected by any weather, dirt, mud... anything. It's why I bought the bike, in fact. The worst thing about hydraulic disk breaks, IMO, is that they work too well-- the first time I went riding with them I almost face-planted myself locking up the front tire. I've heard reports of overheating and 'break fade' on long downhills with continuous breaking, but have never run into it myself. (and it should not be a problem with proper technique : pulse the breaks and glide rather than riding them softly the whole way down)

I have heard of special break pads for all weather riding, but have never had the chance to try them out (and will never go back to rim brakes, now).

Sparky

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 08:05:00 PM »
Disk brakes are amazing. I run a pair of them on my touring bike (think big heavy bike) and love them. I personally use mechanical brake (Avid BB7), only due it being much easier to fix in a developing nation than a hydraulic brake. Hydraulic breaks are amazing to use, nearly effortless, stops you like nothing else, affordable and extremely reliable.

There is nothing to worry about in the brake fading if your using disk brakes on a commuter bike with a normal load. Its more of an issue when your doing some serious descents, stopping with an extremely heavy load or travelling at extremely high speeds.

Russ

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 02:58:10 AM »
Kool Stop Salmon pads + regular maintenance to scuff the inevitable glaze off the pads every month or so and rims less often. I stop on a dime.

Or brake less.

Disc brakes are nice in the rain but have a whole slew of other problems... Overall I consider them more or less equal to rim brakes for midpaced road riding in all weather conditions.

BlueMR2

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 07:57:17 AM »
I just don't go as fast in the wet weather.  I think I mentioned elsewhere on here my experiences.  My mountain bike brakes are next to useless in the wet.  I've tried a lot of compounds and sizes of brake pads over the years.  All the "commuter" and "mountain bike" pads for old school caliper based bikes are equally sad.  Aggressive road bike pads dramatically improve all around performance.  However, a couple problems with that.  They grip so hard that the calipers bend and the pads then rotate and start to cut into the tire sidewall.  AND, they grip so hard that it's easy to lock the tires on dry pavement and a certainty during a panic brake on wet pavement (locking the front wheel *rarely* ends up well, for those that haven't done it yet).

So, I'm just living with minimal brakes in the wet.  I keep the speed down enough that I can still stop (sometimes needing to drag my feet though) in a not totally unreasonable distance.  Same brakes work fine in the dry.

I hear wonderful things about disc brakes, but the bike just has no support for them at all.  I don't want to replace the bike.  Maybe some day I'll find a new front fork that supports them and fits all my other old bits, so I can at least have a front disc...  Or, I need to make friends with someone that has a nice CNC lathe, welding rig, and other misc metal working tools in their shop so I can build my own disc brake system.  :-)

Russ

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 09:38:01 AM »
Or, I need to make friends with someone that has a nice CNC lathe, welding rig, and other misc metal working tools in their shop so I can build my own disc brake system.  :-)

How close are you to Columbus? No CNC, but that sounds like a fun project for a manual + rotary table :-)

Kid_Sneelock

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 11:38:32 AM »
+1 on the Kool Stop salmon pads. Also, you could look into some slightly nicer/beefier brake cable housing. Probably won't make a huge difference on your front brake (since there's not much housing between the brake lever and the brake), but it could help for the rear.  I used Yokozuna brake cable/housing recently and found that the rear brake was noticeably less "squishy" than before.

Finally, make sure you're utilizing both of your brakes when you stop. On a bike, the majority of your stopping power comes from the front wheel, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be utilizing your rear brake as well.

BlueMR2

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 11:51:59 AM »
Or, I need to make friends with someone that has a nice CNC lathe, welding rig, and other misc metal working tools in their shop so I can build my own disc brake system.  :-)

How close are you to Columbus? No CNC, but that sounds like a fun project for a manual + rotary table :-)

2.5 hours by anti-mustachian car...  :-)

It does sound like a fun project.  Maybe once I get all my other projects off my plate (I've been making great progress this year, my project list is getting knocked down much faster than I'd hoped!), I'll tackle that.

JT

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2013, 03:55:21 AM »
Hi All

Thanks so much for all your comments.

Happy biking!!!

cheers
JT

Rollin

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 05:42:11 AM »
Disc brakes are nice in the rain but have a whole slew of other problems... Overall I consider them more or less equal to rim brakes for midpaced road riding in all weather conditions.

I have hydraulic (Shimano XTR) on my mountain bike of 10 years old and cable driven (Avid BB7s) on my commuter of 2 years old (and about 4,000 miles) and have never had an issue.  I adjusted the pads once on both and never again.

Rollin

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 05:46:06 AM »
I just don't go as fast in the wet weather.  I think I mentioned elsewhere on here my experiences.  My mountain bike brakes are next to useless in the wet.  I've tried a lot of compounds and sizes of brake pads over the years.  All the "commuter" and "mountain bike" pads for old school caliper based bikes are equally sad.  Aggressive road bike pads dramatically improve all around performance.  However, a couple problems with that.  They grip so hard that the calipers bend and the pads then rotate and start to cut into the tire sidewall.  AND, they grip so hard that it's easy to lock the tires on dry pavement and a certainty during a panic brake on wet pavement (locking the front wheel *rarely* ends up well, for those that haven't done it yet).

So, I'm just living with minimal brakes in the wet.  I keep the speed down enough that I can still stop (sometimes needing to drag my feet though) in a not totally unreasonable distance.  Same brakes work fine in the dry.

I hear wonderful things about disc brakes, but the bike just has no support for them at all.  I don't want to replace the bike.  Maybe some day I'll find a new front fork that supports them and fits all my other old bits, so I can at least have a front disc...  Or, I need to make friends with someone that has a nice CNC lathe, welding rig, and other misc metal working tools in their shop so I can build my own disc brake system.  :-)

Not sure of the cost, but you could consider replacing the front fork with a disc ready one.  This may be cheaper than buying a new bike, but maybe not since you have the fork, the brake (which come in sets), and a new wheel.  However, if you keep your eye out for a bike complete with discs you can occasionally find good deals.  Also, look to BikesDirect for some pretty awesome prices.  I haven't used them, but have heard a lot of success has been had from others.

GuitarStv

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 07:11:07 AM »
I ride all winter through slush and snow on cheap v-brakes.  They stop very well for me.  Kool-stop salmon pads seem to work best.

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 09:22:52 AM »
Disc brakes are nice in the rain but have a whole slew of other problems... Overall I consider them more or less equal to rim brakes for midpaced road riding in all weather conditions.
You can't just say that-- you've piqued my curiosity. What are the slew of other problems we disk breakers need to be looking out for?

BlueMR2

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 01:25:23 PM »
Not sure of the cost, but you could consider replacing the front fork with a disc ready one.  This may be cheaper than buying a new bike, but maybe not since you have the fork, the brake (which come in sets), and a new wheel.

After popping the chain off twice in 6 miles today, I headed down to the local bike shop (just down the street) and bought a chain measurement gauge (and yeah, my chain is WAYYY out of spec)...  On topic though, I snagged a bike's worth of Shimano XT S70C v-brake shoes...  They're thinner and narrower than the one's I'd seen before, and also have the mounting point offset forward.  Pricy, but I was able to wedge them into my old school wide MTB calipers and they work wonderfully.  Good controllable braking power, AND with them being narrower and offset, they don't pivot and rub against the tire!

So, problem solved for only a little bit too much $ (those Shimano pads are pricy) instead of WAAY too much money (albeit I miss out on the fun of doing it) for a disc brake retrofit.  :-)

Rollin

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 05:37:51 PM »
That's great to hear.  You solved your problem with a good fix, and it didn't cost you a ton.  Quality is sometimes expensive, but it lasts longer, fits better, works better - most the time...plus you took your time yo research it.  Had you rushed in you might have spent much more to get a similar solution.

Russ

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2013, 11:56:22 AM »
Disc brakes are nice in the rain but have a whole slew of other problems... Overall I consider them more or less equal to rim brakes for midpaced road riding in all weather conditions.
You can't just say that-- you've piqued my curiosity. What are the slew of other problems we disk breakers need to be looking out for?

I mean, nothing that would be a deal-breaker, but just a couple things people don't usually think about. Here's the whole rundown on rim vs. disc...

System standardization:
Rim brake mechanisms are more transparent, easier to replace individual parts, and parts are available worldwide. Disc brakes usually use difficult to rebuild proprietary caliper parts so you have to toss the whole thing if anything breaks, if you're in a country that even has those parts.

Pads:
Disc brake pads last longer but are more expensive and are more susceptible to decrease in performance due to oil contamination

Adjustability:
Rim brakes are generally more adjustable, so squeals and chirps are easier to resolve

Rims:
Rim braves will wear out the rims after some time; how long depends on how much much abrasive muck you ride through. My oldest pair of road rims had 20k miles on them and were probably OK for another 5k when I sold them. On the other hand I know mountain dudes who like the mud and replace their rims every 10k miles or so.
Rim brakes also don't work well with out-of-true rims, although you shouldn't ride out-of-true rims anyway and could just use the rim brakes as a handy reminder to true up in that case. Disc brakes eliminate rim wear obvs, don't care if your rim is wobbly, and allow for lighter/stronger rim designs.

Rotors:
Can be bent, which kind of negates the rim truing argument in favor of discs above. Also more finicky to true back up, since disc brakes have tighter clearances and require a straighter rotor than rim brakes require of rims. Wear part that wears slower than pads but faster than rims, so they will need to be replaced every so often if you ride lots.

Wheel strength:
Disc brakes transfer braking torque through the hubs and spokes, which rim brakes do not. This adds a whole bunch of stress to the wheel, meaning beefier hubs and more spokes are required. You'd never know except that things will weigh more though, it's not like they're less safe. Just need to put a bit more metal there to make up for it.
Discs also require space for the rotors, so the spokes are set narrower on the hub, requiring more dish in both wheels. This does make the wheel weaker/less stiff laterally compared to a nondished wheel of equal spoke count, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Frame strength:
Disc frames/forks need to be a little beefier on the non drive side to handle the heavy forces applied through the calipers. Seen by users as heavier components.

Dry stopping power:
Both will make you skid. Once you hit this point it's impossible to apply more braking torque, so although disc might have more available braking torque, it's useless on the bike.

Wet stopping power:
Discs win here. Although an iron oxide rim pad like Kool-Stop Salmon makes a HUGE difference for rim brakes. I never wish I had more stopping power in the wet. Doesn't mean other people don't want more though I guess.

Heat:
Can lead to blowouts in rim brakes at continuous application at ~800W. Discs can handle ~900W continuous before rotor warping, brake fluid boiling or hydraulic seals melting. Disc brakes also transfer heat to bearings through the hubs so that's not good. These cases (for both rim and disc) are both SUPER RARE and pretty much mean you're using your brakes wrong, so don't worry about them too much.

Commuterbro accessories:
Disc brakes usually are in the way of rack/fender/kickstand mounts

Lever feel:
Mechanical disc brakes feel awful because there's nothing soft between your fingers and the rotor. With rim brakes you get a little compliance in the pads, and in hydro discs, that compliance comes from the brake fluid. The feeling of modulation between nice hydros and nice rim brakes is about even. Mechanical discs again are worse.

Other:
The position of the caliper relative to the dropout leads to a tendency for hard braking to pull the front wheel out of the front dropout with disc brakes. Not an issue if you're on tight and that's part of what the lawyer tabs are for, but it's still a thing.
Bikes running hydraulic discs can have a problem with air getting into the system in some weird cases, such as if the bike is flipped upside down or if you squeeze the levers without the rotor between the pads. This is very bad and means you won't be able to stop very well until you bleed the system, which is expensive and a PITA.

I think that's about it, I'll update if I remember anything else.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 12:02:15 PM by Russ »

capital

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Re: Bike brakes - wet weather
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 03:43:53 PM »
Kool-Stop Salmon pads, new cable/housing if you feel a lot of friction on the current ones, and better v-brakes if you have super-cheap ones (like unbranded ones on department store bikes). A quality new V-brake is $15ish on Amazon.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!