Author Topic: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?  (Read 83317 times)

katon

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basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« on: January 05, 2014, 06:20:59 PM »
Hi,
With very little expertise and a desire to learn as much as I can (preferably from those with more experience), I'm undertaking finishing our basement!
I've been looking up options and alternatives to drywall and found a couple that look interesting (dricore smartwall and amdry wall).  But both seem to be fairly new products and I can't find much info online, so not sure if they're worth considering and really have advantages over drywall, or if they're just marketed well.  I live in rainy Vancouver so mould and moisture are both real concerns, especially with a concrete basement.
Any voices of experience with either of these (or similar products) - or thoughts on drywall in a basement in a wet climate would be very much appreciated!
I'm looking forward to learning new skills but would hate to get bitten by something a few years out that I would have known now with a little more experience, so very much appreciate being able to ask y'all.  Thanks!

GuitarStv

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2014, 06:50:52 AM »
First warning . . . if you have any moisture problems of ANY kind, do not finish your basement.  It's heartbreaking to have to tear out everything because you forgot to do the right prep work.  Moving on:


I just finished my basement (over about a year of working on my own) and although our basement is bone dry and has no water issues, we wanted to prepare for future issues as much as possible.

We used XPS foam board as insulation directly against the walls, tuck taped all the seams so that it made a continuous insulative moisture barrier, then used furring strips over top (with concrete anchors) to attach the drywall.  Then we tuck taped over each screw head.  Looked something like this:


The beauty of this system (besides all the space you save over traditional framing) is that if the basement walls ever leak, they shouldn't get the drywall wet . . . and since the insulation is waterproof you don't have to worry about all the problems that come with regular pink fluffy crap getting wet and molding behind your wall.

We then lay down dri-core.  If we get a wall leak down the road, the water should be able to leak down behind the walls, under the dri-core, and out the drain in the laundry room.  The dry core has an air gap around the perimeter of the room that should permit some airflow so that wet spots are able to dry.  The air gap under the dry core also makes for a very comfortable floor to walk on (nicely insulated).

Now, this approach won't work if your basement floods with two feet of water . . . but there's not much that's going to help you in that scenario.  It's also a lot of work, and slightly more expensive that traditional basement finishing . . . but you get a lot of peace of mind.  Just an idea I wanted to throw out there.

Longwaytogo

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2014, 08:32:01 AM »
First warning . . . if you have any moisture problems of ANY kind, do not finish your basement.  It's heartbreaking to have to tear out everything because you forgot to do the right prep work. 




^ This times 100!! As a professional remodelor I have finished 20-30 basements but missed out on many more because I refused to finish one if there were any signs of moisture or the homeowner said something like "it's only leaked once or twice in the 10 years we lived here"... unless they hired me or another company to solve the moisture issues first. I did a few where they spent their entire budget fixing leaks and then had to wait a few years to finish it off but in the long run they were way better off.

I have not either of the exact products that you mention but we did a basement back in like 2007-2008 with some kind of "paperless drywall" that I believe was made by Georgia-Pacific. The problem we had with it was it looked like hell when painted so we ended up having to skim the entire board with mud using a 24" float (instead of just doing seams/screw holes like regular drywall) which was a lot of extra labor and dust/mess with the additional sanding. I f you do not have any moisture issues (or resolve them first) then usually drywall is fine. I typically leave it a good 2 inches short of the floor (assuming your base is tall enough to cover this) just as pre-caution to prevent any wicking if you did have any water (sometimes basements can flood from plumbing issues, power outages affecting sump pumps etc even if you have everything right)

Are your walls pored concrete or cinder block? If cinder block I would recommend painting them with a product like dry-lok first even if you have not had problems in the past. It would not keep running water out but helps with small moisture/humidity from transferring through walls into insulation/ back of drywall.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:25:46 AM by Longwaytogo »

Midwest

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2014, 10:05:25 AM »
2nding the recommendation on correcting water problems first.  I filled all cracks with epoxy injection prior to construction. 

Similar to the other poster, we used 2" xps directly against the concrete taped seams and foamed to and bottom.  For framing, we used 2 x 3's to save space.  The firring strips work great, but they don't allow for easy fishing of wires or other items if you didn't get it right the first time.  We used the water resistant drywall for the walls. 

On the dricore floor, great stuff.  We had a sump pump fail and the water ran under the floor to the drain.  No damage to anything.  Won't work for feet of water, but will work for small amounts. 

Lastly, building science has great information on finishing basements.  I built mine based on their recommendations.

Midwest

katon

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 07:20:05 AM »
Thanks to each of you for the great info!  I really appreciate the suggestions - and that great picture.  I'll look into the firring or furring strips, and check out the building science website - thank you all.  As far as the question about poured concrete or cinder blocks; I'm not sure - I think poured concrete but that's exactly the kind of thing I need to know, and didn't even know the question to ask, so much appreciate it.
Thanks, too, Longwaytogo, for the info about the challenges of painting paperless drywall - I've never heard of that but will definitely avoid :)
The good news is that we don't have moisture problems; the only issues in the last 8 years have been one sump pump failure (fixed) and one hot water heater that died and did a mini flood just after buying the place.  So maybe I'm being overly cautious... But thanks so much for the expert advice and thoughts and questions - I'll do more research on some of the ideas you all suggested and let you know how it goes!

Spork

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 07:23:54 AM »

I am not a pro, have no experience with basements.  I am only asking this out of curiosity.

Would it be at all possible to redgaurd the walls similar to the underlay under tile in a shower?

Heather

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2014, 07:40:56 AM »
What about insulating a basement that is known to have water issues?

We had a flood 2 years back, and have ripped everything out back to the bare concrete walls.  So, we have a completely un-insulated basement in a very cold climate.  The flood was not caused by leaks, but by spring ground water, which our sump pump couldn't keep up with. We have two pumps now which both run in the spring, but such systems are vulnerable to power outages, and mechanical breakdowns, so I wouldn't trust it would never happen again.

How can we insulate in a way that is not damaged by water?
We have thought about spray-on, but are not sure if it fumes are a health hazard. We have a 5 year old.
Advice?


GuitarStv

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 08:43:28 AM »
Stay away from any fluffy/fiberous type insulation.  It will get wet and hold water.  The last thing you want is for high humidity in a dark, cool place.  That's basically building a custom mold hotel.

Your best bet would likely be some kind of waterproof foam insulation.  XPS attached to the wall (as in the picture above) would work, but the problem is that you can't leave it uncovered . . . the foam releases toxic chemicals when there's a fire, so you need some sort of fire retardant (like drywall) to cover it to meet code.

Spray foam insulation works great, and adheres really well . . . but it's toxic as all hell.  Not sure if if requires the same covering as XPS to meet fire code.

You might be better off insulating that basement ceiling so the rest of the house stays warm and treating the basement as a big assed cold room/unheated storage place.

ritchie70

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 10:03:07 AM »
We used XPS foam board as insulation directly against the walls, tuck taped all the seams so that it made a continuous insulative moisture barrier, then used furring strips over top (with concrete anchors) to attach the drywall.  Then we tuck taped over each screw head.  Looked something like this:

My dad did our basement in a similar way in the 1970's, but only one layer of foam and lots of construction adhesive instead of any studs or fasteners. He didn't put any electrical in the exterior walls. Still looks as good as it ever did (he wasn't a great finish carpenter) and that thing flooded several times a year until maybe 1982 when my grandpa bought the house to live in and wasn't putting up with a flooding basement, so had it "de-watered."

The kitchen floor in my prior house was built up in a similar way, pink foam sheathing with wood between then plywood. As far as I could tell the dishwasher leaked at some point and the wood rotted out so I had to rip the whole mess out. If they'd just used all foam it would have been fine.

GuitarStv

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 06:14:05 AM »
We used XPS foam board as insulation directly against the walls, tuck taped all the seams so that it made a continuous insulative moisture barrier, then used furring strips over top (with concrete anchors) to attach the drywall.  Then we tuck taped over each screw head.  Looked something like this:

My dad did our basement in a similar way in the 1970's, but only one layer of foam and lots of construction adhesive instead of any studs or fasteners. He didn't put any electrical in the exterior walls. Still looks as good as it ever did (he wasn't a great finish carpenter) and that thing flooded several times a year until maybe 1982 when my grandpa bought the house to live in and wasn't putting up with a flooding basement, so had it "de-watered."

The kitchen floor in my prior house was built up in a similar way, pink foam sheathing with wood between then plywood. As far as I could tell the dishwasher leaked at some point and the wood rotted out so I had to rip the whole mess out. If they'd just used all foam it would have been fine.

It's a great way to build!  Pink fluffy has no place in a basement IMHO.

ritchie70

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 07:45:21 AM »
We used XPS foam board as insulation directly against the walls, tuck taped all the seams so that it made a continuous insulative moisture barrier, then used furring strips over top (with concrete anchors) to attach the drywall.  Then we tuck taped over each screw head.  Looked something like this:

My dad did our basement in a similar way in the 1970's, but only one layer of foam and lots of construction adhesive instead of any studs or fasteners. He didn't put any electrical in the exterior walls. Still looks as good as it ever did (he wasn't a great finish carpenter) and that thing flooded several times a year until maybe 1982 when my grandpa bought the house to live in and wasn't putting up with a flooding basement, so had it "de-watered."

The kitchen floor in my prior house was built up in a similar way, pink foam sheathing with wood between then plywood. As far as I could tell the dishwasher leaked at some point and the wood rotted out so I had to rip the whole mess out. If they'd just used all foam it would have been fine.

It's a great way to build!  Pink fluffy has no place in a basement IMHO.

Definitely agree!

Sadly, I'm pretty sure pink fluffy (or actually yellow fluffy) is lurking behind the drywall in my current house's basement.

ksfrank

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 11:33:29 AM »
Married to a carpenter/construction supervisor here.  I don't see anyone else stating this so here goes.  Maybe it's just too obvious or too corny but this is what we've done.

After several years of discussing finishing the basement walls, I was getting no where.  He just refused.  And twenty years later, I'd have to say he was right.  He's spent too much of his career gutting, troubleshooting and working in non-ideal finished basements.  He insisted that our basement walls stay bare and have clear access.  Not only does water try to seep in from the outside and you have to constantly be aware of the humidity buildup while guessing on the amount of damage, if your basement is like ours, the heavy hitters - plumbing, heating/air and electrical - are all routing through there.  They were never meant to be enclosed. 

The reason he insists that they stay exposed is because he does a constant monitoring of all these things and has saved us alot of money over the years by catching things early.  Also, about once a year, invariably, either the washing machine, toilet or kitchen sink develop an overflow or leak problem and we have water in the basement or need to haul equipment down there to clear pipes. 

He says that since the earth is warm just a short distance under the surface, most of the surface areas of the basement walls (which are essentially big hunks of rock/concrete) hold their own temperature.  Heat is not being transferred out.  And in the summer we gain some cooling because they hold the earth's coolness longer than the upper floors of the house. 

Our compromise is that he agreed to install thin sheets of 4 ft x 8 ft particle board on the ceiling with screws.  That way he can take down an individual sheet and follow a plumbing line without damaging anything I want to look nice.  I painted the walls (which are hand poured, very rough, uneven concrete) and some areas of the floor for my workroom.  He agreed on carpet in the biggest areas we use for an extra tv area/guest room.  The carpet just lays directly on the concrete floor so it can easily be flipped back and allowed to air dry if we notice any dampness or water leaks. 

People are always commenting that they think it looks cool down there.  I guess it's a bit "industrial" decor looking but it's nice and functional.  And the contractors who have had to come out (installing a new heat/air system, a plumbing line tied in for an additional 1/2 bath, etc) immediately smile and comment on the open access to where they need to work.  I believe they cut us a bit of slack in their billing because they have a straight shot to get in and out of the space they need to work in without having to be careful.  No one talks about that in their per hour rates.  But, I know the contractors talk about it amongst themselves, sharing stories of unbelievable challenges getting to the functional equipment in a home -working all scrunched up on their knees with their elbows held in tight, and incurring the wrath of the homeowners for mud on the new carpet or a ding in the corner of the sheetrock as they tried to turn the corner with their ladders and such.  They HATE working in these circumstances, as you probably would if you were in their shoes!

Only other mustachians would appreciate this discussion!     
 

Greg

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 01:11:57 PM »
All pretty good except, the idea that "Heat is not being transferred out."  Heat moves toward the cold, so if the walls are cool to the touch they're absorbing and transferring the heat to the ground outside.  But, earth makes a great insulator and can help keep the heat in when it's very cold outside.

GuitarStv

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 06:28:06 AM »
There are two reasons that I like an insulated basement:

Winter - around here temperatures can drop down pretty low.  Ground temperatures are moderated somewhat, but they average 10 degrees C.  That's pretty cool . . . and it's quite noticeable in the winter that the bare basement walls and floor are cold to the touch.  It makes the room uncomfortable.

Summer - Cool temperatures sound like a great thing in the warm months, but we get very hot/humid air for a good chunk of the summer.  When the hot humid air makes it's way down to the cold basement it has a tendency to condense on the walls . . . looks like they're sweating.  I don't like having that kind of humidity in the basement, as it can cause mold growth.  When the walls and floor are properly insulated, the hot air hits the insulated barrier . . . not the cold wall.  This prevents the condensation from happening.

Granted, all of this will depend on where you're living . . . but there are some very valid reasons to insulate the basement (at least in cold/damp climates).

Christiana

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 11:54:08 AM »
I agree heartily with the comment above about leaving things minimally finished, for access and water resistance.  Take the money you would have spent on the basement, and build yourself a posh shed in the yard.

Midwest

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Re: basement drywall alternatives - any experience?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 03:48:46 PM »
If you have a dry basement and finish correctly, I prefer insulation and drywall.  Our basement has been finished for 4 years and no water issues, no smells, etc. because the water issues were corrected prior to finishing and we raised the floor using dricore. 

Without the raised floor, we would have had wet carpet once due to a sump pump issue.  Raised floor ='s no issue for us.   

With regard to access, you can always use a drop ceiling for access.  When I priced it out, however, it was much cheaper to drywall than to use the drop ceiling I was looking at.  If/when we need access, I'll just have the drywall repaired or find another alternative.

The one time we have needed access thus far, I simply opened the 1st floor subfloor up rather than the basement below and rerouted the plumbing that way.

Others may have different opinions, but at $15 or $16 a square foot to finish and no additional cost to heat or cool, I like my finished basement.

Midwest
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 03:51:24 PM by Midwest »