Are these shelves over-engineered?

[cgc007]

Are these shelves over-engineered? Because I think they probably are.

This is my 2nd foray into building shelving, and this unit will be my first freestanding one. I've attached my building plan that I made in excel. Each cell is 1/2 inch. If someone would like to take the time to tell me if I can do anything better/cheaper/easier, please let me know!

Thanks!

[Goldielocks]

SAGULATOR to the rescue!

Using a front shelf edging strip and then fixing the shelf at the ends (to the upright supports) make a HUGE difference in the structural integrity.  You can cut down a lot of material by using a front edging strip.  I did not see one in your materials..?

Check out this website for the "Sagulator" and put in the weight you want to bear, and you will find out what size of shelving and supports you need.    We cut down our shelving material costs a LOT using this.

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm

[cgc007]

My design is basically this for a shelf:

5/8" to 3/4" plywood floor, bordered around each edge by a 2x4.

So, from the top, it'd simply look like a sheet of plywood (with spots for the legs to go through), but from the bottom, it'd be bordered by 2x4 all the way around.

These will be supporting multiple rubbermaid tubs full of various things, probably no more than 150-200lb per shelf. Sagulator, with what I can figure out, only needs edging on 1 side, where I have it on 4 sides, and even with only 1 side with edging, my math shows that it can support 950lbs the way I have it designed.

So, my other question is, with multiple shelves up and down the structure, (3 total) do I need to take any other shelf into account for the leg strength? I'm tying it together with 3" screws for the 2x4 connections and putting the edges to the plywood with 1.5" screws.

??? I'm a carpentry noob for sure! I think my biggest problem is that I don't have a carpentry vocabulary yet. =(

[deborah]

Do you have any crossbracing?

[cgc007]

If you mean diagonal pieces, no. Everything I have designed is currently square, with the "front edging" going around all the sides, which keeps it extremely sturdy.

[deborah]

I'm sure the shelves themselves are overengineered. I have a very similar setup in an old built in cupboard (I think you call them closets), and have no worries about the weight. But I'm not sure how yours will react to shear force (the reason for crossbracing). As yours are an L shape, the two arms of the L should fix that problem. However, if they are not attached to one another, there could be problems. Of course it depends on how the 2x4s on the bottom of the shelves are attached to the 2x4 struts. How are you going to get at the tubs in the corner of the L?

[deborah]

The other problem is whether the floor can bear the weight of the shelves and what is in them.

[cgc007]

The floor definitely can, its the concrete floor of our unfinished basement.

As for getting the tubs out of the corner of the L, they'll have to be removed from the outer edge of the short side first. Most likely we won't be putting tubs back there, but misc stuff we can slide out without it (or things we won't need for a while, like holiday decorations and whatnot).

The L will be connected to itself with yet more 2x4s.

The benefit of this overengineered-ness is that it's still a $150 project (I have a leftover sheet of plywood from a previous project which is dropping the cost a bit). So that's not too bad given the size and amount of weight the shelves can presumably hold, however, if I could design it smarter and save some money in the process, I'm all ears.

[Sparafusile]

If you have a table saw, buy yourself a bunch of 2x6's instead of 2x4's, cut them lengthwise in half to make two 2x3's. They will be straighter, better quality, and cheaper. You wont lose much in strength and you'll have a nice smooth, flat surface (the one that was cut) to glue if you go that route.

[deborah]

Actually, I've just realised that my shelves are all 2x1s rather than 2x4s - but I have 2 underbed tubs per shelf rather than 2 normal size tubs, so I have twice the number of shelves you do, but each uses 1/4 the wood. Each of the tubs hangs out over the shelves by 7 inches (I didn't want to build out further than the original cupboard). I decided on underbed tubs because they each hold less weight, and are thus easier to get down from higher shelves. They all have fairly heavy stuff in them. The bottom shelf has full sized tubs for the few things that need the height.

So, I guess I'm saying that you could probably cut down your wood to 2x1s, and have a shelf for each tub, rather than having 2 shelves per tub, and still be fine. I would personally prefer this, as it means you aren't trying to sort out two tubs at once and potentially having both fall on your head. This would also cut down your wood costs by half, even though you would have twice as many shelves.

[zolotiyeruki]

Several years ago, I built some storage shelves for my sister.  They're 24" deep, and hold 5-gallon buckets of food storage--sugar, flour, beans, etc.  It's heavy stuff--like 40-50lbs/sqft.  I used 1x2's on the walls as furring strips, screwed through the drywall to the framing.  The 3/4" plywood shelves were screwed down to the furring strips.  At the front of the shelves, I used 2x2's as vertical supports, with 1x2's holding up the front edge of the shelves.  Those shelves are solid to this day.

Bullet-point version: 
--3/4" plywood for the shelves, 24" from front edge to back
--1x2 furring strips at the front and back of shelves
--back furring strips screwed through drywall to framing
--2x2 vertical supports in front

[cgc007]

Bullet-point version: 
--3/4" plywood for the shelves, 24" from front edge to back
--1x2 furring strips at the front and back of shelves
--back furring strips screwed through drywall to framing
--2x2 vertical supports in front

This shelf is going to be freestanding, since the wall it's adjacent to is concrete that I don't feel like drilling into (nor do I have the tools to do so effectively). If I put a 1x2 at the back as well would that strengthen it enough to make it worth it?

[ampersand]

Mother of Pearl!!! what are you planning on storing on these things? Solid Gold Bars?

I fully appreciate the awesomeness of over engineering, but are you taking it to far? Based on your cost of about $150, would it be cheaper to buy decent SS wire shelves for about $50 a piece? Just a thought.

Also... awesome spreadsheet sir... Very impressive.

[cgc007]

Mother of Pearl!!! what are you planning on storing on these things? Solid Gold Bars?

I fully appreciate the awesomeness of over engineering, but are you taking it to far? Based on your cost of about $150, would it be cheaper to buy decent SS wire shelves for about $50 a piece? Just a thought.

Also... awesome spreadsheet sir... Very impressive.

Well, if I had a lot of gold bars, I suppose I have a shelving system to store them on!

But no. I just don't want them to have any danger of falling down, however, now I'm thinking that they'll be left standing when the apocalypse occurs.

I guess I'll go back to the drawing board and see what I can come up with. Thanks for the input, and I always appreciate others who like my excel handiwork =D

[deborah]

This shelf is going to be freestanding, since the wall it's adjacent to is concrete that I don't feel like drilling into (nor do I have the tools to do so effectively). If I put a 1x2 at the back as well would that strengthen it enough to make it worth it?

Yes. We made floor to ceiling (12 foot) bookcases that had 2x1s as the uprights. Still standing FULL of books after more than 20 years.

[GuitarStv]

Mother of Pearl!!! what are you planning on storing on these things? Solid Gold Bars?

I fully appreciate the awesomeness of over engineering, but are you taking it to far? Based on your cost of about $150, would it be cheaper to buy decent SS wire shelves for about $50 a piece? Just a thought.

Also... awesome spreadsheet sir... Very impressive.

Well, if I had a lot of gold bars, I suppose I have a shelving system to store them on!

But no. I just don't want them to have any danger of falling down, however, now I'm thinking that they'll be left standing when the apocalypse occurs.

I guess I'll go back to the drawing board and see what I can come up with. Thanks for the input, and I always appreciate others who like my excel handiwork =D

In my experience shelving is more likely to fall forwards than fall down.  Secure the back of the shelf to the wall and it should be pretty rock solid with regards to this.

[cgc007]

Ok, I've taken out a LOT of 2x4s. I decided to still go with using 2x4s just because they're relatively inexpensive, they work with the lumber reduction according to the sagulator (whereas 1x2s won't), and I can better use the scrap in other random projects.

Now I'm down to a total project cost of $108, instead of $145, and instead of 57 2x4 cuts, I need 18. That should make the project go considerably faster!

With the massive reduction in lumber, the shelf fronts are also easier to access.

Now, since I cannot attach the shelf to the wall, is it "good enough" if I attach it to the ceiling joists? We're not planning on finishing this portion of our basement, and I plan to extend the legs of the shelves all the way to the ceiling joists. I can definitely align the back side of the shelf (long side) with a ceiling joist, which I figure should be plenty of stability.

Thoughts?

[zolotiyeruki]

Tying the tops of the vertical supports with the joists is a very good idea--it will keep the shelves from tipping side to side or to the front.  I would still recommend you add furring strips (1x2's) underneath the front and back edges of the plywood--they will dramatically reduce the amount of bowing you see.

[Goldielocks]

My design is basically this for a shelf:

5/8" to 3/4" plywood floor, bordered around each edge by a 2x4.

So, from the top, it'd simply look like a sheet of plywood (with spots for the legs to go through), but from the bottom, it'd be bordered by 2x4 all the way around.

These will be supporting multiple rubbermaid tubs full of various things, probably no more than 150-200lb per shelf. Sagulator, with what I can figure out, only needs edging on 1 side, where I have it on 4 sides, and even with only 1 side with edging, my math shows that it can support 950lbs the way I have it designed.

So, my other question is, with multiple shelves up and down the structure, (3 total) do I need to take any other shelf into account for the leg strength? I'm tying it together with 3" screws for the 2x4 connections and putting the edges to the plywood with 1.5" screws.

??? I'm a carpentry noob for sure! I think my biggest problem is that I don't have a carpentry vocabulary yet. =(

Why build shelves that will carry up to 5x the weight of what you will use them for?

Also, I built shelves using 2x4's for an apartment storage locker once.  I think it was 4ftx5ft with sheliving around the perimeter.   I used 2x4 as they were quick and available, but it took up so much space that my storage capacity was received by 25%.   I definitely regretted it but maybe you have excess space in the basement?

[cgc007]

We do have quite a bit of excess space, and now with the reductions in wood thanks to the comments above, and the sagulator, the only space being wasted by the 2x4s is in the back.

Another primary reason I would rather not attempt with anything smaller is I'm not confident in how to work with it. I know I can attach my 2x4s how I'm planning to, because I've done it before. But I have bad experiences with smaller woods. I always end up splitting them, which I imagine greatly reduces their strength. I just don't want to fight that battle. Cutting the amount of 2x4s needed in half fits the bill, though, and it will pretty evenly match the weights we plan to put on each shelf.

Whereas 1x2s would need more bracing and more of them period, or thicker plywood for the decking of the shelves. I think I've found a happy medium =)

[Goldielocks]

Well 2x4's will also allow some wrong partial cuts or allow you to notch them to make shelf supports!  Good luck, this actually sounds like a fun project and the material is very forgiving.

[cgc007]

So here's the final design, drawn up in sketchup to make it a little easier to visualize. I think it should hold together nicely. I decided to use a lot of half-lap joints for my corners, and that should keep everything extremely sturdy. My only worry is that long front, but it's 3/4" plywood, so it shouldn't have any issues (sagulator said it wouldn't).

Time to build it and find out!

Thoughts?

[zolotiyeruki]

Just one thought: Run a 1x2 furring strip under the front edge of that long shelf, with screws going through the plywood into the 1x2 every foot or so.  You'll gain tremendously in stiffness.

[cgc007]

I was going to try it like this and see what happened, and add those if needed. They shouldn't be too hard to install after the fact.

[Milspecstache]

What are you putting on the shelves?  Canned goods will load it differently than stuffed animals...

[cgc007]

Standard 20 gal plastic tubs, with about 25-50lbs of stuff in them

[ProfWinkie]

+1 zolotiyeruki

Also pre drill pilot screw holes - you will not split the wood