Author Topic: Air leaks  (Read 8834 times)

Exflyboy

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Air leaks
« on: February 14, 2014, 01:59:33 PM »
One of my tasks since a retired 5 weeks ago is to track down the cold drafts in this house.

We doubled the size of the house 8 years ago but since then its always been cold at floor level.

Now we have gorgeous wood floors and nowhere for there to be air leaks so I was confused So I began to look closer and found these things in order of importance.. I.e when they were fixed made the biggest difference.

We have a forced air system. I would not have gone this way as an HVAC engineer but it was what was expected in the local market at the time..

Anyway.. the list of leaks were as detected by the back of the wet fingernail (most sensitive way to detect moving cold air without a thermal imaging camera)

1) Around the floor boxes where they attach to the subfloor. These were tiny leaks, some of them not visible! but when using the wet fingernail were quite pronounced! Sealing them made a big difference. But it was still cold!

2) Back of the hall closet: I had made the drywall panels removable so to access the plumbing to the back of the shower if necessary so the panels were not taped and mudded.. Nor were they sealed. There was also about a 2*3" hole at the bottom that I had forgotten about right at the back where a vent pipe went though... Spray foam and caulked around the edges of the panels.. Huge improvement!

3) crawlspace access.. also in hall closet.. Amazing the little gap around the edge of the access was leaking a lot of cold air... I caulked this up with decorating caulk.. easy to just cut it with a box cutter to gain access and the caulk is $1:19 a tube.. I have several in stock!

4) Pipe penetrations under sink and in laundry room.. Surprisingly large drafts again.. out with the spray foam.

Thats what I have done so far.. the thermostat last night was 4 degrees lower and my Wife was still warm and cozy!

But of course we are mustacians and if this perfectly built house had these air leaks right under my nose... what other leaks are there?

Well we have the gorgeous wood floor with stained molding at the base of the walls.. wet finger test along the bottom of this molding has detected unmistakable air leaks..WHAT?.. Well the old part of the house has 2*10 planks as a subfloor then tap paper and the oak strip floor laid on top. At the edges of the floor there is a small gap to allow for expansion, and this gap is covered by the molding. Now because the molding is stained it does not have any caulk thus is not sealed to the floor, plus the subfloor also has 1/4" gaps in the planks.

Bottom line, air is getting up between these planks, up through the gap between the floor and the walls behind the molding and into the room, even though the underside of the house is fully insulated between the joists.

To test this in our bedroom we have a section of wall that we didn't finish wallpapering and so I left the molding off so the gap is exposed.. wet fingernail in the gap.. sure enough there is a tiny draft.

I am considering what to do next.. Easiest is to use some brown caulking under the molding to seal it to the floor (but not the wall). Not perfectly effctive.

Alternatively (but more work) is to remove the molding.. seal between the edge of the wood floor and the wall with spray foam and replace the molding.. With a brad nailer this could all be done in about a day.

So there you are, tiny leaks that I never thought would ever be a problem when we built the house but added up made a significant difference.

Frank

Greg

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 02:06:50 PM »
What about clear caulking?  I use this when sealing clear wood finished trim against other surfaces.  I use the kind that acts a bit like elmer's glue; it goes on opaque white but dries clear.  This could also be used in some of the larger flooring gaps. 

Of course I've done this to other people's houses but not my own...

Exflyboy

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 02:13:03 PM »
Thanks Greg,

You mean using clear silicone?.. I'm a bit reluctant.. But I can't see why not except for the fact that it all looks so darned nice and clear silicone has a habit of ruining stuff.. especially if you ever have to get it off again.

A clear acrylic caulk (I've never seen any personally) might work.

Greg

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 04:27:07 PM »
Not silicone (yuck) but clear acrylic.  There are a few out there now.  10 years ago they were not that great, they were kind of sticky when dry.  The newer ones are pretty good!  It's also paintable, but in most cases I would use white where I plan to paint it.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/DAP-Alex-Plus-10-1-oz-All-Purpose-Caulk-Clear-18072/100024624

I hate silicone caulk.  Except in the garage, but that's pretty different from household use.

Exflyboy

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 04:45:15 PM »
Excellent.. Thanks Greg I will check that out.

That shouldn't look bad at all.

Frank

Milspecstache

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 07:40:12 PM »
Few questions:
Where do you live, or at least what outside temp are we talking about?
Crawlspace/slab/basement?
Any insulation under the main floor (if crawlspace/basement)?

phred

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 11:56:57 AM »
what is a floor box?  the heating vent?  I caulked where the duct box meets the subfloor.  Around the perimeter of the floor vent I taped on that sponge-foam type weatherstriping.
As you wisely pointed out, wood floors definitely need that expansion gap so they don't buckle as the humidity changes.  And, as you've also said, baseboard trim should not be nailed to both the wall and the floor.  In one of my houses I was able to caulk the part of the subfloor that supported walls from the crawlspace.  With a newer house, I had to remove the baseboards in the cold rooms so I could caulk between the subfloor and the bottom wall plate.  Just for the heck of it I also ran a bead where the drywall 's bottom edge met the bottom wall plate.  I then put down new tar paper with a 6 inch overlap, and ran it about an inch up the bottom plate.  I chose not to remove any of the finished floor; probably couldn't.
  My larger air leaks happened to be around the exterior door and some of the windows.  I did insulate the crawlspace sill area.  I don't know if that made any difference, but it made me happy

Exflyboy

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 12:47:41 PM »
Few questions:
Where do you live, or at least what outside temp are we talking about?
Crawlspace/slab/basement?
Any insulation under the main floor (if crawlspace/basement)?

Western Oregon.. Off course the drafts became more pronounced in the cooler weather.. I think we got down to the high teens one night but that is pretty unusual for us.

It has a crawlspace and there is insulation between the joists.

As I said I was amazed at how much air leaked in through seemingly very small gaps.

Frank

Milspecstache

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 12:54:55 PM »
Your vents on the foundation should be closed during this time to prevent air movement, I believe.  Are they?  I installed automatic vents on one of our rentals to where they only open during the day when it is very warm:
http://www.airvent.com/professional/products/foundation-auto.shtml

Not sure if you ever crawl the crawlspace but if you do, take some cans of expanding foam and wire insulation holders.  My house had missing areas of insulation, some areas where the insulation had fallen down, etc.  I used the expanding foam around plumbing pipes.  Good idea to crawl it once a year.

Exflyboy

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 12:59:06 PM »
what is a floor box?  the heating vent?  I caulked where the duct box meets the subfloor.  Around the perimeter of the floor vent I taped on that sponge-foam type weatherstriping.
As you wisely pointed out, wood floors definitely need that expansion gap so they don't buckle as the humidity changes.  And, as you've also said, baseboard trim should not be nailed to both the wall and the floor.  In one of my houses I was able to caulk the part of the subfloor that supported walls from the crawlspace.  With a newer house, I had to remove the baseboards in the cold rooms so I could caulk between the subfloor and the bottom wall plate.  Just for the heck of it I also ran a bead where the drywall 's bottom edge met the bottom wall plate.  I then put down new tar paper with a 6 inch overlap, and ran it about an inch up the bottom plate.  I chose not to remove any of the finished floor; probably couldn't.
  My larger air leaks happened to be around the exterior door and some of the windows.  I did insulate the crawlspace sill area.  I don't know if that made any difference, but it made me happy

Yes I think you did a fine job and prevented the air leaks I am talking about. If I were building the house again I"d do what you did.. I.e run a strip of tar paper up from the subfloor under the sheetrock.. That would completely seal the area.

Caulking between the outside edges of the ductbox and the subfloor is what I was talking about in #1.. This made the biggest difference.. As I said I could feel cold air even in sections where there was no gap at all!.

Frank

Exflyboy

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 01:08:41 PM »
Your vents on the foundation should be closed during this time to prevent air movement, I believe.  Are they?  I installed automatic vents on one of our rentals to where they only open during the day when it is very warm:
http://www.airvent.com/professional/products/foundation-auto.shtml

Not sure if you ever crawl the crawlspace but if you do, take some cans of expanding foam and wire insulation holders.  My house had missing areas of insulation, some areas where the insulation had fallen down, etc.  I used the expanding foam around plumbing pipes.  Good idea to crawl it once a year.

Vents are open.. in fact in the old part of the house you can't close them anyway.. The other problem is I have a lot of decking with no access underneath so I'd have to do it from the inside.. seeing as the old part of the house  the framing is within 10" of the dirt (with vapour barrier) it would be very difficult to access all the vents.

The floor is fully insulated however.

I like the idea of spray foaming the pipes holes from underneath.. One could potentially do the gaps in the subfloor too (if there is enough gap to get the tube in?) but that would be a pretty arduous task pulling down the insulation above my head thats been there since 1937..:)

I need to get down there in the Summer to inspect all the ductwork as its been a few years.. so this might be a good time to go all out on those gaps.

Frank


Greg

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 01:10:29 PM »
In new construction where I live the minimum air sealing that my insulation subs do is to caulk the joint between wall framing bottom plates and the subfloor, caulk wire openings in outer wall outlet and switch boxes, that sort of thing. 

So for older places I try to reproduce the effect of that kind of air sealing even when I can't actually do it.  Meaning cracks around trim at windows and doors, base, light fixture boxes.  This last one is often difficult as there's often a lot of hole in the boxes as well as a lot of wires in the way.  Foam gaskets are available.

One area that gets overlooked is the gap under baseboard in a carpeted room.  This is often a drafty gap as evidenced by the soot-like staining that light colored carpeting shows in these areas.  I've tried lots of solutions but my favorite involves removing the carpeting, sealing the plate/floor gap, installing new smooth flooring, trim and caulking.

phred

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2014, 01:18:27 PM »
I was taught never to caulk the bottom of a window casing on its exterior side.  Somehow this was supposed to leave a vent to help keep the wall's interior dry.  Any truth to this?

Exflyboy

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 01:39:55 PM »
In new construction where I live the minimum air sealing that my insulation subs do is to caulk the joint between wall framing bottom plates and the subfloor, caulk wire openings in outer wall outlet and switch boxes, that sort of thing. 

So for older places I try to reproduce the effect of that kind of air sealing even when I can't actually do it.  Meaning cracks around trim at windows and doors, base, light fixture boxes.  This last one is often difficult as there's often a lot of hole in the boxes as well as a lot of wires in the way.  Foam gaskets are available.

One area that gets overlooked is the gap under baseboard in a carpeted room.  This is often a drafty gap as evidenced by the soot-like staining that light colored carpeting shows in these areas.  I've tried lots of solutions but my favorite involves removing the carpeting, sealing the plate/floor gap, installing new smooth flooring, trim and caulking.

Good points Greg,

In fact I have one carpeted room and did the wet fingernail test while pulling back a few inches of carpet, sure enough there are air leaks here. I do have smooth sheet underlayment under the carpet so the subfloor gaps are taken care of.. but not at the edges.

I am thinking that I can pull back the whole carpet and caulk the gap as you suggest and re-lay the carpet with a rented carpet streatcher.

Frank

Milspecstache

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2014, 01:53:32 PM »
Your vents on the foundation should be closed during this time to prevent air movement, I believe.  Are they?  I installed automatic vents on one of our rentals to where they only open during the day when it is very warm:
http://www.airvent.com/professional/products/foundation-auto.shtml

Not sure if you ever crawl the crawlspace but if you do, take some cans of expanding foam and wire insulation holders.  My house had missing areas of insulation, some areas where the insulation had fallen down, etc.  I used the expanding foam around plumbing pipes.  Good idea to crawl it once a year.

Vents are open.. in fact in the old part of the house you can't close them anyway.. The other problem is I have a lot of decking with no access underneath so I'd have to do it from the inside.. seeing as the old part of the house  the framing is within 10" of the dirt (with vapour barrier) it would be very difficult to access all the vents.

The floor is fully insulated however.

I like the idea of spray foaming the pipes holes from underneath.. One could potentially do the gaps in the subfloor too (if there is enough gap to get the tube in?) but that would be a pretty arduous task pulling down the insulation above my head thats been there since 1937..:)

I need to get down there in the Summer to inspect all the ductwork as its been a few years.. so this might be a good time to go all out on those gaps.

Frank

A lot of it depends on the condition of the crawlspace.  Mine was damp so I first put down 10mil poly, overlapped, and anchored with bent over insulation wires.  That helped with moisture but I wanted to do more with the vents.  If your crawlspace is dry already, perhaps you don't need all of them and can just block off the ones that you can't easily get to, say with rigid styrofoam insulation cut into pieces to fill the hole in the foundation.

Greg

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Re: Air leaks
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2014, 03:45:01 PM »
I was taught never to caulk the bottom of a window casing on its exterior side.  Somehow this was supposed to leave a vent to help keep the wall's interior dry.  Any truth to this?

In the rainy PNW this is also done but mostly to allow water that does get in a way to get out. 

Nowadays window assembly flanges are caulked and flashing taped to the house wrap, so leaving the bottom of the exterior trim uncaulked would not vent anything unless done as part of a specially designed rainscreen/venting wall layer.

 

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