Author Topic: Advice on water heaters  (Read 12990 times)

Tami1982

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Advice on water heaters
« on: November 01, 2012, 12:12:40 AM »
My water heater died today.  I do not have gas in my area so it has to be electric.  After all the reading I've done, and experiences from friends, I do not believe a tankless water heater to be a great option.  There seems to be a lot of water waste, and an inability to trickle water, plus extra maintenance.  In addition, I'm pretty sure that I can't run that in my old house.  I have original knob and tube wiring with a Federal Pacific box.  (I know, not good.)   So right now my choices seem to be to replace it with a traditional electric water heater (albeit a smaller size)  Or do the new heat pump water heaters - which while expensive, do offer tax rebates and operate at a 1/3 of the annual cost.   Either choice has to be put on a credit card:(   

Any input or advice?

gooki

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 02:18:09 AM »
How long do you intend to live in your current home?

How fast will you pay down the CC debt on the more expensive option?

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 08:29:29 AM »
I expect to be here at least a decade.  It would take two - three months to pay off the more expensive option.  (I will get a bonus in January that will cover it.)

CB

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 10:34:56 AM »
...heat pump water heaters - which while expensive, do offer tax rebates and operate at a 1/3 of the annual cost...

Be aware that there's no longer a federal incentive for HP water heaters, though there are state and utility rebates.  I was just about to pull the trigger on a HPWH to replace our 20-year-old electric unit but the price of the one I was eyeing went from $1000 to $1200.  Now I'm back to considering a traditional storage WH.

Have you read up on HP water heaters?  Make sure you know what you're getting into in terms of noise, space requirements, recharge time, etc.

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 11:00:22 AM »
What is your traditional water heater size and what are you considering reducing it to?  Also what is your house size and household usage like? What was the age of the old heater?

In my last rented place (1000 sq ft 1 level condo; 2 showers, 3 sinks, dw, washer) the landlord replace the 40 gallon HWH with tank less water heater.  Because it was only two people living there; who never showered/laundered at the same time (also longest run was maybe 40ft) it was an economically solution. I've seen a lot of complaints about the tank less WH as well and would discourage if your usage rate or line length are too large. I do like the Heat Pumps if your utility room conforms to the install requirements, though i do see the challenge in justifying the cost now.

If you are replacing an old HWH that is at least 15 years old then you will automatically see a nice saving on utilities due to design improvements.  The mention of putting heater on credit would have me encouraging a straight 1 for 1 replacement (of course with downsizing).


*Also consider pairing point of use tank less heater (<2.0 gpm) with the system you are installing if it falls short on heating all the water you use.  Currently looking to install one in my kitchen due to the sink taking 84 seconds to get hot (longest line and runs up an exterior wall).

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 11:16:50 AM »
I did not know the federal incentives ended!  Argh. 
I have a 520 sqft home with two sinks and a shower.  I am the only one here, so it's just me for usage.  The water heater is a 50 gallon and is 14 years old.

I figured I could drop to 40 gallons easily - do you think less?  All I care about is being able to have a nice hot bath periodically.  (My mom's water tank runs out before she gets it full, but she has huge tub and it has to travel from one end of home to the other - a very long way.)

The distance from my tank to my kitchen sink is only 10 ft?  Of course, lines could be longer under teh house.  My bathroom sink takes longest to warm up, but I don't think it's even a minute.

CB

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 12:02:01 PM »
Don't despair yet about the tax credit; with minimal digging around I found that our local electric utility offers a $700 rebate on HPWHs.  You should check your utility's website as well as http://www.dsireusa.org for potential incentives.

All I care about is being able to have a nice hot bath periodically. 

With such a small house and single-person usage you could consider a couple of small 115V point-of-use units (e.g., one for shower, one for kitchen) and then use a bucket heater for hot baths.  I just ordered this one (reviews indicate it works well for baths given enough time) and will be trying it out for hot baths as an interim solution until we can get our main HWH replaced.

Norman Johnson

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 01:59:11 PM »
With knob and tube wiring, I would go with a tank hot water heater. The wire should have been upgraded to the tank right even if the rest of the house hasn't been? Also, you may not have enough room left in your panel (amperage wise) to have a tankless heater. Those things are pigs for power.

strider3700

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 02:31:24 PM »
Yeah I'd go 30 or 40 gallon tank.  50 gallon usually use more amps and it sounds like your wiring is questionable as is.    40 gallon is the standard size around here,  anything smaller then that will be frowned upon when you go to sell. 

Nords

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 02:33:48 PM »
I have original knob and tube wiring with a Federal Pacific box.  (I know, not good.)
Holy crap.  That's not a house, that's a firefighter's training museum.  Are you sure you're going to get another decade out of it?

Well, if you're going to stay longer than 5-8 years then you'll probably get the payback on a high-efficiency EnergyStar model.  Here's another thread with more suggestions:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/replace-electric-water-heater-diy/msg33065/#msg33065

I realize you may decide to go with a plumber instead of DIY.  If you choose to use a plumber, you'd want them to do the same 11 things.

Bakari

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 04:20:04 PM »
I did not know the federal incentives ended!  Argh. 
I have a 520 sqft home with two sinks and a shower.  I am the only one here, so it's just me for usage.  The water heater is a 50 gallon and is 14 years old.

I figured I could drop to 40 gallons easily - do you think less?

Up until it died and I replaced it with a tankless, I had a 5 gallon water heater.
And its a 2 person household.

I believe the maintenance issues with tankless come from the overly complicated ones sold at big box stores and by contractors.  Since you have such a small place, and only one person, you may very well get enough hot water from a 115V 30A instant heater.

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 07:08:55 PM »
Thank you everyone for the input - I really appreciate it.  I think I am going to have to swap out one for one, albeit a smaller one for ease of installation and due to wiring.  I was really hoping the tank was going to make it to next year. It was very noisy for being a water tank and I knew it had to be close to its end.  Now to find out where you can recycle these things.

@nords - LOL!  I know, it's terrible.  I just bought this house in July:)  It had better last!  I'm redoing the whole house wiring next year.   

@strider3700  I have thought about the selling aspect, but, unless my life changes drastically - I'll probably live here until I die! 

@lilacorchid - I don't know yet about the wiring for the tank.  It all appears to be behind it where I can't see anything.  There has been some remodeling in the kitchen and bathroom so there are some upgrades, but it's mostly original.

@cb - Is a point of use unit similar to a tankless?  And if so, is that something I can do with my wiring?  Plus it would have to be wired and plumbed in at each point, yes? 

Final thought: If any of you are dads - teach your daughters how to fix things!  I am a well educated single woman who did not learn how to do any of this as a kid.  I am really not mechanically inclined. (In high school I took the asvab.  Scored 99% in almost everything...60% in mechanics.)  I regularly feel like an idiot now.  Like the other day when I caulked all my windows.  I have the tube in the gun and I cut the tip off, but it just wouldn't go.  I thought I must have gotten old dried up caulking.  I'm sure you are all already laughing, but I had no idea you had to puncture the tube inside and it is not anywhere on the label!  My dad had to tell me on the phone, while laughing his butt off at me.  Because it's just one of those things you are "supposed to know."  So, if you have sons (I have a brother) be sure to include the daughter too.  I was way more interested in reading, but would have hung out one on one with dad as I always wanted his attention.

Norman Johnson

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2012, 07:59:36 PM »
Lol, my husband doesn't know much about typical "man" things, so I will be teaching our children! I have always been somewhat mechanically inclined, but the vast majority of my practicle knowledge came from asking people who knew more then me (later became watching YouTube videos or reading tutorials), trying out what I could, and knowing what was over my head so I didn't kill myself or burn the house down. I've now been living on my own for a long while and finally feel I'm at the point where I can use skills from one job to figure out how to fix something else.

Oh, and when ever we do something to our house we haven't done before, we yell out, "Practice house!" and start the project. ;)

Bakari

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 08:29:10 PM »

@cb - Is a point of use unit similar to a tankless?  And if so, is that something I can do with my wiring?  Plus it would have to be wired and plumbed in at each point, yes? 

A point of use is usually a tankless - not just similar, but identical.  It's just smaller.  Many of the 30A, 120V units are marketed as point of use.
Anything that is 30A (amps) or 120V (volts) will probably work with your existing wires.  A regular standard household outlet is 30A 120V.  In other words, you just plug it in.  You can find about 10 different models on ebay right now, mostly priced between $100 and $200.

The last time I recommended a single low flow unit in the MMM forums, the person said they wanted to be able to sell in a few years, but since you plan to stay, you can do whatever works.  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/replace-electric-water-heater-diy/msg33068/#msg33068

I have found 1.6gpm to be plenty enough as a "whole house" water heater - in other words, if its a small house, and you don't need massive amounts of hot water (two showers and a dishwasher all running at once) you can potentially use a "point f use" as a main heater.
Another option would be a (relatively) big (<2gpm) POU instant heater for the bathroom, (for showers), and a tiny one (<1gpm) for the kitchen, where you really never need much hot water anyway.  This would mean twice as much plumbing, but wiring just means plugging into any available outlet.


Incidentally, though I happen to be male, I didn't learn this stuff from my dad.  I learned it by being interested and curios and taking stuff apart as a kid, and from being too poor to buy new things so fixing them was the only option.  Most of it isn't really that hard.  The fact that you are even thinking about doing this stuff on your own is more than 1/2 the battle. 

Norman Johnson

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 08:43:58 PM »
"Anything that is 30A (amps) or 120V (volts) will probably work with your existing wires.  A regular standard household outlet is 30A 120V.  In other words, you just plug it in. "

Not true, at least in Canada. 15A, 120V is the standard residential circuit. 30 amps is what you would run to the dryer and usually has a special plug. AWG 14 is meant for 15 amps, you would need a size 10 for 30 amps.

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 09:42:12 PM »
@Bakari -

Just to make sure I understand.  Something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Point-Of-Use/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbqo7/R-100051412/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UJM_K2_k8sk  Could make enough water for my whole house?  And I could put it where the old water tank was (because of existing connections) and just plug it in any working outlet? 

I really like the idea of that.  I think my current one has a bigger plug though - aren't water heaters on big plugs like dryers?  So I don't have a working regular outlet there.   Herm. 

@lilacorchid - you are showing more knowledge than I know!  I'm not sure of amps and volts and things.  But if I can plug a big window ac in, I would think I could do this.  Going to look into it.

Bakari

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 10:37:09 PM »
"Anything that is 30A (amps) or 120V (volts) will probably work with your existing wires.  A regular standard household outlet is 30A 120V.  In other words, you just plug it in. "

Not true, at least in Canada. 15A, 120V is the standard residential circuit. 30 amps is what you would run to the dryer and usually has a special plug. AWG 14 is meant for 15 amps, you would need a size 10 for 30 amps.

doh!  yes, ofccourse, you are right.  It is the same in the US, and in retrospect I am very well aware of it.  I was just not thinking carefully.  My apologies. 
I shouldn't try giving advice while I'm at work and distracted.

30A would need thicker wires, (or, I believe, but not 100% sure, you could combine two existing 15A circuits). 

What I should have meant to say is if there is already an electric water heater, there should already be a 30A circuit there, which you could use for a small whole house electric.
If you wanted to go the separate heater for bath and kitchen, those are the ones that could potentially use a regular 15A plug.

Something 30A would use a big plug - like this:

A 50A plug is like this:


Something POU that was 120V and 15A would plug into a standard household outlet.

The home depot example actually uses a tiny tank, not a tankless system - it would def. not work for a whole house.

I was thinking more something like these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lorenzetti-Tankless-in-line-instant-electric-water-heater-110-v-130-v-/300798516769?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4608fd1e21
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PowerStar-Point-of-Use-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-AE12-USED-NEVER-INSTALED-/190748185853?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c697a54fd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stiebel-Eltron-DHC-E10-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-10KW-/200841373223?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec3142627
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-9-kW-RTE-9-NEW-/280977828910?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416b956c2e
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stiebel-Eltron-DHC-3-1-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-/190748597443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c69809cc3


CB

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2012, 09:29:21 AM »
...Something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Point-Of-Use/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbqo7/R-100051412/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UJM_K2_k8sk  Could make enough water for my whole house?  ...

With a 2.5-gallon tank you may need to limit your showers to 2~3 minutes (assuming you have a low-flow shower head).  You may also have only lukewarm baths if your bathtub holds more than 2.5 gallons (which would be a pretty tiny bathtub).  Unfortunately 1500W maximum is not going to heat water instantaneously, though if you just use the bucket warmer I linked above to heat your baths, it might work just fine and save you a lot of money.

You could also consider larger point of use units but past the 6-gallon size they become comparable in price to a standard WH.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 09:32:20 AM by CB »

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2012, 11:14:41 AM »
Contacted my utility - they do not participate in any rebate programs period.  (Were pretty abrupt about it to!)  I can't really complain, they have one of the lowest rates in the country at $0.049, but still, not great. 

Looks like at this point I'm going with a 40 gallon standard heater for ease of installation and lower initial cost (since this is going on credit.)  I do not want to mess with any wiring given the age of it.  I need  it to make it to next July issue free!  My math estimates the annual cost of running it at $233.87.  Not as nice as I'd like, but likely better than I was doing with my 14 year old one.

I really appreciate the advice and time every one has taken and I wish another option looked better at this time.  Now I just have to figure out where to recycle the old one.

Nords

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2012, 03:49:00 PM »
Final thought: If any of you are dads - teach your daughters how to fix things!  I am a well educated single woman who did not learn how to do any of this as a kid.  I am really not mechanically inclined. (In high school I took the asvab.  Scored 99% in almost everything...60% in mechanics.)  I regularly feel like an idiot now.  Like the other day when I caulked all my windows.  I have the tube in the gun and I cut the tip off, but it just wouldn't go.  I thought I must have gotten old dried up caulking.  I'm sure you are all already laughing, but I had no idea you had to puncture the tube inside and it is not anywhere on the label!  My dad had to tell me on the phone, while laughing his butt off at me.  Because it's just one of those things you are "supposed to know."  So, if you have sons (I have a brother) be sure to include the daughter too.  I was way more interested in reading, but would have hung out one on one with dad as I always wanted his attention.
We're on it.  I haven't changed my own oil since our daughter got her learner's permit-- over four years ago.

But don't sell yourself short.  When I was growing up I would practically gnaw my arm off to get out of Dad's workshop where he was building furniture, grinding lawnmower valves, making wooden bowls & candlesticks on the lathe, rewinding washing-machine motors... I just wasn't interested in that stuff.  I learned most of my electrical, plumbing, and sewage skills courtesy of the U.S. Navy.

Today you don't need to consult your dad.  Instead use FamilyHandyman.com and FixItNow.com.  Between the magazine and the Samurai Appliance Repair Guy you'll take care of most of your home's maintenance.

But call a real pro for the house electrical wiring.  You want at least two 100-amp feeds replacing everything in the walls.

By the way, I've never seen a plug-in water heater.  Ours have all been hard-wired.

I really appreciate the advice and time every one has taken and I wish another option looked better at this time.  Now I just have to figure out where to recycle the old one.
Your local trash utility may have a once-a-month "bulk pickup" program.  They send the appliances (including water heaters) to repair stores or to recyclers.  Another place to recycle a water heater might be the store you buy the new one from (which will send it to a repair store or a recycler).  A third option is a solar water-heating supplier, who moves plenty of water heaters and is also selling to repair stores & recyclers.

If nothing else works, try FreeCycle or Craigslist's "free" category.

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 10:07:45 PM »
SAD DAY!!!!  It is not the water heater - it looks to be the wiring.  I was hoping to postpone the wiring until I had lived here a year.  Once I was here a year there were grants that would help pay for it.  And if I have to replace the wiring and (i'm guessing) the panel too, might as well do whole house.  Don't know how I am going to do that, but will figure something out!

@Nords - Thanks for the kid words, and I love the picture!  That's awesome.  I have no idea how to do that.  Should probably learn instead of paying almost $40 each time. 

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2012, 10:56:05 AM »
NEWS!!  It was the circuit breaker.  A federal pacific circuit breaker is, unfortunately, three times the cost of a standard breaker at $75, but I have hot water.  I also have a new hot water tank that I didn't need, but my dad and brother are unwilling to uninstall so I can return.  Which I can understand, as old one was old and it was a lot of work.  And since it was removed it has been on its side, tooling around in the back of dad's truck getting beat up.  But still.  Spent $215 on a credit card for that. 

LOL, when you think about it, I paid $290 to fix a $75 problem.  Damn.  So, from now on we back track as far as possible to make sure we are treating the problem and not the symptom!

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2012, 01:47:21 PM »
LOL, when you think about it, I paid $290 to fix a $75 problem.  Damn.  So, from now on we back track as far as possible to make sure we are treating the problem and not the symptom!
A 14-year-old water heater?  Don't beat yourself up.

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2012, 10:19:53 PM »
A 14-year-old water heater?  Don't beat yourself up.

lol, thanks!  My dad was like, "I'm sorry."  And very Eeyore about it too.  "Dad!  I called to say thank you again for all the stuff you did!  You had no way of knowing that it was the breaker - you aren't an electrician.  I called and said water heater went out and you accepted.  Let it go."

He's really the one who is being hard on himself.   Going to have to show more appreciation for help.  Oh, and he bought the $75 breaker, not me.  Was very nice of him, but I feel a bit uncomfortable about it because I think it stems from guilt and not general nice dad type behavior.   Herm.  Ponder!

PJ

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2012, 11:17:44 PM »
Oh, and he bought the $75 breaker, not me.  Was very nice of him, but I feel a bit uncomfortable about it because I think it stems from guilt and not general nice dad type behavior.   Herm.  Ponder!
   
 
Or maybe just concern that you should have to pay for two separate repairs to fix one problem, when you're on a tight budget?  I know my dad would be worried about it! 
 
Maybe you can thank him with a nice dinner or something like that ...

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2012, 12:57:01 PM »
At least you learned a valuable lesson you can apply in the future:

A $10 tester can save hundreds or thousands in repairs.
In this case a "multi-meter", which is a voltmeter, ammeter, and ohm-meter in one.
Put it on AC voltage mode, stick the prongs in the outlet, you know if the outlet has power or not.

Tami1982

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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2012, 10:29:28 PM »
Or maybe just concern that you should have to pay for two separate repairs to fix one problem, when you're on a tight budget?  I know my dad would be worried about it! 

I know he was that, but he was really beating himself up and saying he was sorry because he didn't realize it was the breaker and not the tank.  I just kept telling him it wasn't his fault.  I feel like he went and bought it out of guilt because he didn't figure it out:(  I appreciate it a lot, but it makes me feel sad that he should be so mad at himself. 

I have thanked him profusely a few times now and will do something nice  for him too:)


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Re: Advice on water heaters
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 07:25:10 AM »
Thanks to OP for mentioning heat pump water heaters...I didn't even know they existed!  We have a 15yo electric that I was planning on replacing soon before the basement floods. :)  It just so happened that Sears had a GE heat pump model that was a floor display unit for $925 (instead of $1150), and my utility in MD offers a $350 rebate on HPWHs.  So now, it should pay for itself in 2-3 years.  yay!