Help my washing machine wash the clothes!

[jac941]

TLDR: Washing machine is lousy at washing. Is it fixable?

Our 7 year old HE front-loading Frigidaire washing machine does a lousy job actually washing the clothes. It's fine on items that aren't really dirty (e.g. professional clothing for work), but does a lousy job of washing things that are actually dirty like my kids clothing, napkins, etc. And I'm not even super finicky about cleanliness -- for example, I have no problem with my kids clothing being stained, but I do expect things to smell good coming out of the machine & I expect it to remove dirt that I can brush off, superficial bits of food on the napkins, etc. Our machine fails at both.

We do not have hard or soft water. I have already tried a wide variety of detergents including Charlie's Soap, Seventh Generation, Tide, All, Biokleen, several store brands, etc. & I've tried adding oxyclean and bleach (for colorfast things like the napkins). I've tried using more soap, I've tried using less soap. I've tried the various baking soda and vinegar recipes to "strip" detergents out of the washer. So far, none of those things have really made an appreciable difference.

So my questions to the group:
What can I do to improve the washing efficiency of the current washing machine? Are there mechanical fixes that I'm unfamiliar with that might help improve the performance?
Should I just give up on this machine & buy a new one? I hate to replace the machine if it's fixable.
What washing machines do people recommend? The LGs and Samsungs get great reviews and are water and energy efficient. But they're super expensive & it's unclear if the people reviewing are actually washing truly dirty stuff.

I'm just super frustrated & want to do the "mustachian" and environmentally friendly thing and make this machine actually do what I need it to do so I don't have to get rid of it. But I'm running out of ideas & the frequent need to "rewash" stuff that doesn't get clean is a huge time sink & waste of resources. After trying so many things to improve the performance, I'm reaching the point where I want to throw money at the problem by buying the fanciest best reviewed machine on the market. Definitely a NOT mustachian solution.

I really appreciate any help / assistance this group can provide!

[Frugal Lizard]

I just had a consultation with my favourite appliance repair man (Charlie).  I had him in for something else but since I was paying for a service call and had one hour of his time, I pinned him down and had a mini fix-it / questions session about every one I own.  Charlie is good that way.
First off - I have a Kenmore HE.  Has similar trouble.  My guys play soccer rain or shine and change the colour of their socks they are so encrusted with mud. Charlie says : stop overfilling the thing.  I know it says that in the instructions.  But if the clothes aren't falling down through the water, they won't get clean. 

So I now do about twice as many loads because Charlie says you have to be able to see the back of the tub without packing everything down and be able to touch it with both hands.
Charlie also says:  clean out the gasket all the time.  There are little holes in that thing to send the water back into the tub part and they get clogged.

Now if Charlie could only make the waste water smell less like a sewer when it pumps out the water.

[Miss Piggy]

I don't really have an answer for you, but I know your frustration.

We bought a nice HE washer about 5 years ago. Had Lowe's come and pick it up about 2 weeks later. It was so damn efficient that it hardly used ANY water at all. So nothing got clean, and everything was heavily wrinkled. Every load. It was horrible. Got one of the old-fashioned inefficient models instead...you know...the kind that actually use water.  I dread the day we have to replace this one, since everything will be HE by then.

[lthenderson]

I used to design and test front load washing machines for a living. My first suggestion is to put less clothes in at a time. Manufacturers of these things live and die by the gallons of water used per wash which means they have incentive to dial back the water levels. This unfortunately means it takes more time to clean the clothes and can't hold as many. The second option depending on your model is if there is a way to increase the water level through your programming. This would allow you to keep putting in the same amount of clothes but get them cleaner. Some higher end models can but many lower end models can't. If you were handy, you can adjust the pressure sensors that detect water levels to increase them on your own. I do that all the time when doing tests to keep dialing water levels back. Finally, make sure you are using proper temperature baths. Hot and warm water removes dirt better than cold. Soap can also make a difference but from your post, it sounds like you have tried other brands.

[jac941]

Thank you so much for the responses! Very helpful!

Charlie says : stop overfilling the thing...you have to be able to see the back of the tub without packing everything down and be able to touch it with both hands.

My first suggestion is to put less clothes in at a time.

Thanks. Point taken here. I didn't realize how little clothing I should be putting in the machine. I don't pack the thing tight or anything, but I certainly can't see & touch the back of the tub for each load. I'll try doing half of what I've been doing and see how that goes.

Charlie also says:  clean out the gasket all the time.  There are little holes in that thing to send the water back into the tub part and they get clogged.

I'm pretty good about cleaning the gasket, but I do have issues with socks (especially kids socks) getting stuck in it on some loads. That definitely has a negative impact on the cycle.

Finally, make sure you are using proper temperature baths. Hot and warm water removes dirt better than cold.

Hmm, my hot water heater is pretty far from my machine. With how little water the machine uses, I'd be surprised if it was getting warm or hot water even when it's set that way.

If you were handy, you can adjust the pressure sensors that detect water levels to increase them on your own.

I am somewhat handy, so I might try this if the above suggestions don't work. My brief google search for this hasn't turned up my machine, but if it comes to it, I'll put a little more effort into figuring it out.

[Miss Piggy]

I used to design and test front load washing machines for a living. My first suggestion is to put less clothes in at a time. Manufacturers of these things live and die by the gallons of water used per wash which means they have incentive to dial back the water levels. This unfortunately means it takes more time to clean the clothes and can't hold as many.

What's the point if you have to do twice as many loads. How very short-sighted.

[lthenderson]

I used to design and test front load washing machines for a living. My first suggestion is to put less clothes in at a time. Manufacturers of these things live and die by the gallons of water used per wash which means they have incentive to dial back the water levels. This unfortunately means it takes more time to clean the clothes and can't hold as many.

What's the point if you have to do twice as many loads. How very short-sighted.

From the consumer side, I agree. From the manufacturer's side the point is that if you show a spec sheet showing your machine versus your competitor's machine and your machine used 5 gallons less per cycle which adds up to $$$/year, whose machine are you going to buy? There isn't a spec on how clean the clothes get.

[Daley]

First, I never saw Borax as one of your tried additives.

Second, use the extended soak cycle of your machine (if you have one), or learn how to fake it. Unfortunately, front loaders don't really seem to do extended soak cycles quite as well as top-loaders.

Third recommendation if Borax and extended soaks don't help beyond "more water to laundry ratio" as others have pointed out? STPP (sodium tripolyphosphate) as an additive to the laundry, like one teaspoon per load, and only when you absolutely need it due to heavy soiling. Make sure it's 100% legal to use phosphates for cleaning in your municipality first, though, and be aware of the ecological consequences of using the stuff. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a tightrope walk between effective cleaning and reducing water pollution at times... especially with these newer HE machines. Sadly, there's really no good substitute for phosphates in cleaning certain types of messes and stains in machines short of abandoning your washing machine entirely and going back to hand washing with a washing board and lye soap.

Fourth, machine recommendations if you just can't get the current HE machine to work. Older Whirlpool top-loaders, pre-2010. Otherwise, Speed Queen top loader with mechanical controls, which is surprisingly rated as an HE machine itself. As others have pointed out, what good is reducing water usage per load if load size dramatically shrinks with it and/or you wind up having to re-wash clothes?

[dycker1978]

I owned and operated an appliance repair shop for many years here.  A couple of good points have been made, don't load them too full.  Keep the gaskets clean.  Also when the machine is not in use, prop the front door open, as well as the slid where the soap goes.

About once every 6 months or so use a cleaner(https://www.lowes.ca/laundry-cleaning-supplies/affresh-3-pack-4-2-oz-washing-machine-cleaner_10366269.html?af=3632&cse=3632&gclid=CjwKEAjwgbG5BRDp3oW3qdPiuCwSJAAQmoSDQ1tNDzdSXrjsPu68JlJPEolzIkb836TJMl0bMaXT3hoCrJ_w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) one tab is all that is needed, just the tab, no clothes.  This, along with the propping open of the door will keep the smell out.

As far as machines go, I have owned an LG front load since 2006.  I love it, it works good, and cleans good, as long as you follow my tips above.  As far as Samsung goes.... well lets put it this way, my shop was the warranty depot here for Samsung for a while.  I will NEVER buy anything Samsung, but a phone.

[zolotiyeruki]

I used to design and test front load washing machines for a living. My first suggestion is to put less clothes in at a time. Manufacturers of these things live and die by the gallons of water used per wash which means they have incentive to dial back the water levels. This unfortunately means it takes more time to clean the clothes and can't hold as many.

What's the point if you have to do twice as many loads. How very short-sighted.

From the consumer side, I agree. From the manufacturer's side the point is that if you show a spec sheet showing your machine versus your competitor's machine and your machine used 5 gallons less per cycle which adds up to $$$/year, whose machine are you going to buy? There isn't a spec on how clean the clothes get.

Sadly, government policy (in this case, with respect to environmental impact) too often conflicts with the realities of life, especially when it comes to appliance "efficiency" standards.  Much of the reduction in water and energy usage is driven not by consumer demand, but by DoEnergy regulations.  Arbitrary standards create perverse incentives (more smaller loads to get the same result as before) and creative workarounds (like adjusting the pressure sensors, or removing the flow restriction in your shower head).

They'll be prying my top-load, water-chugging washer from my cold, dead hands. :)

[Another Reader]

"They'll be prying my top-load, water-chugging washer from my cold, dead hands. :)"

Washing clothes requires water and surfactants to allow the water to "wet" the fibers.  I have said this on multiple occasions.   Older top loaders that actually wash fabric are going to become like 1950's American cars in Cuba.  Very well maintained and available at high prices.

[zolotiyeruki]

"They'll be prying my top-load, water-chugging washer from my cold, dead hands. :)"

Washing clothes requires water and surfactants to allow the water to "wet" the fibers.  I have said this on multiple occasions.   Older top loaders that actually wash fabric are going to become like 1950's American cars in Cuba.  Very well maintained and available at high prices.

Heh.  Not to mention that the HE washers tend to be more electronic (and prone to failure) rather than electromechanical.  Oh, and a door that's just begging to leak a whole load's worth of water on the floor.  I guess there IS an upside--you'll get less water on your floor when it leaks! :P

[GuitarStv]

Second, use the extended soak cycle of your machine (if you have one), or learn how to fake it. Unfortunately, front loaders don't really seem to do extended soak cycles quite as well as top-loaders.

This.

Pre-soaking a wash for an hour or two makes a tremendous difference to how clean the clothes come out.

[Frugal Lizard]

Fisher Paykell makes a toploading high efficient washing machine with a direct drive motor.  Unfortunately they are mighty expensive.

I am going to try the soaking before running the cycle - but as my machine doesn't have the option - I will presoak in a bucket in the laundry sink and then dump the mess in the machine.

[lizzzi]

Now that I have a puppy, I have dog items that need to be washed...the bathmat he sleeps on, the washrags I use for his face, etc. I hate like crazy putting that stuff in my low-water HE washer. (Sure wish I had brought along my good old top-loader with me when we moved, instead of getting stuck with this HE turkey in the new house. I just didn't realize.)  Anyway, the suggestions above are very helpful. I can't be the only person in the world who has to wash pet stuff.

[jac941]

I can't be the only person in the world who has to wash pet stuff.

I definitely wash pet stuff too, but haven't found that nearly as hard to get clean as the kid stuff. Pet stuff is lots of fur with some mud. My kid stuff is mud and caked on food. Ugh!

Thanks to all who responded! I am trying all of your suggestions and it's helping. Still not great, but better. I'm also putting a little more effort into sorting the filthy stuff from the normal dirty stuff so I can just "under load" the washer and run the more complex cycle with the soak, hot water (really lukewarm due to distance from water heater), and extra rinses for the stuff that needs it. If I'm still frustrated in a few months, I'm going to modify the water level & if I break the machine in my attempt, I'll buy something new. Probably whatever LG my preschool has because it seems to work much much better than anything else HE I've seen.

[Trudie]

"They'll be prying my top-load, water-chugging washer from my cold, dead hands. :)"

Washing clothes requires water and surfactants to allow the water to "wet" the fibers.  I have said this on multiple occasions.   Older top loaders that actually wash fabric are going to become like 1950's American cars in Cuba.  Very well maintained and available at high prices.

Yup.  Love my old top load Maytag... made when they still made them here.  The thing is a battle ax and does a helluva job.

[serpentstooth]

"They'll be prying my top-load, water-chugging washer from my cold, dead hands. :)"

Washing clothes requires water and surfactants to allow the water to "wet" the fibers.  I have said this on multiple occasions.   Older top loaders that actually wash fabric are going to become like 1950's American cars in Cuba.  Very well maintained and available at high prices.

My parents' appliance guy told them to never, ever, ever replace the 1983 Whirlpool washer that's original to the house, unless they were going to buy a Speed Queen. Everything else is "crap."

[serpentstooth]

First, I never saw Borax as one of your tried additives.

Second, use the extended soak cycle of your machine (if you have one), or learn how to fake it. Unfortunately, front loaders don't really seem to do extended soak cycles quite as well as top-loaders.

Third recommendation if Borax and extended soaks don't help beyond "more water to laundry ratio" as others have pointed out? STPP (sodium tripolyphosphate) as an additive to the laundry, like one teaspoon per load, and only when you absolutely need it due to heavy soiling. Make sure it's 100% legal to use phosphates for cleaning in your municipality first, though, and be aware of the ecological consequences of using the stuff. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a tightrope walk between effective cleaning and reducing water pollution at times... especially with these newer HE machines. Sadly, there's really no good substitute for phosphates in cleaning certain types of messes and stains in machines short of abandoning your washing machine entirely and going back to hand washing with a washing board and lye soap.

Fourth, machine recommendations if you just can't get the current HE machine to work. Older Whirlpool top-loaders, pre-2010. Otherwise, Speed Queen top loader with mechanical controls, which is surprisingly rated as an HE machine itself. As others have pointed out, what good is reducing water usage per load if load size dramatically shrinks with it and/or you wind up having to re-wash clothes?

The phosphates are the only thing I've found that completely eliminates the vomit smell and removes formula stains from clothing, and I've tried everything.

[meg_shannon]

Our new apartment came with a top loading HE machine. It's crap. With the first load of laundry washed, the top layer of clothes were DRY at the end. I sympathize with machines that don't wash well.

To fix the problem, I manually add a bucket of warm water to the machine before starting the cycle. Seems like it tests for load size (and this thing has a large wash tub) by weight, and adding water tricks it into adding yet more water. I also switched to liquid detergent or I pre-dissolve any powder detergent/additives.

When we lived in Germany last year we had an old British Bosch machine that took 3+ hours to run, used very little water, but got the clothes clean. Also, the coolest setting was 30 C (about 80-85 F). You need warm water and time to wash clothes. I think that's part of the problem with American HE machines. They want to use cold water, low water amounts, non-phosphate detergents, and still wash/rinse a load of laundry in about an hour. That doesn't work.

I'll look into the phosphates. I would hate to use them due to environmental concerns, but I still have issues with stuff coming clean, and my little one has had some severe reactions to stronger detergents.

One more thing, Walmart is selling Persil now. A German laundry detergent. I haven't purchased it here in the US yet, but in Germany that stuff is almost magic!

[zolotiyeruki]

I'll look into the phosphates. I would hate to use them due to environmental concerns, but I still have issues with stuff coming clean, and my little one has had some severe reactions to stronger detergents.

Yes, phosphates can be bad for the environment.  And yet it's only in our household detergents that they're banned, and not in the gazillions of tons of fertilizer we use in this country. Personally, I feel no guilt in using laundry and dishwasher detergent that contain phosphates.  Oh, and by the way, phosphates are still allowed in commercial settings (like laundry services and restaurants) in many areas.  in other words, the regulation has near-zero actual impact on the environment, but is a tremendous nuisance to every homeowner.

[serpentstooth]

I'll look into the phosphates. I would hate to use them due to environmental concerns, but I still have issues with stuff coming clean, and my little one has had some severe reactions to stronger detergents.

Yes, phosphates can be bad for the environment.  And yet it's only in our household detergents that they're banned, and not in the gazillions of tons of fertilizer we use in this country. Personally, I feel no guilt in using laundry and dishwasher detergent that contain phosphates.  Oh, and by the way, phosphates are still allowed in commercial settings (like laundry services and restaurants) in many areas.  in other words, the regulation has near-zero actual impact on the environment, but is a tremendous nuisance to every homeowner.

Yup. In fact, old fashioned Cascade with phosphates is still marketed to restaurants to clean out fryers and people use it in their dishwashers:

http://www.amazon.com/Pack-Cascade-Phosphates-Professional-Fryer/dp/B00PT0324C

But you're mustachians! Go buy normal detergent and a $10 box of STPP; it's a lot cheaper.

[Daley]

But you're mustachians! Go buy normal detergent and a $10 box of STPP; it's a lot cheaper.

Remember kids, it's:

STPP for the washing machine.
TSP for the dishwasher.

But again, check your local laws first. :)

[serpentstooth]

But you're mustachians! Go buy normal detergent and a $10 box of STPP; it's a lot cheaper.

Remember kids, it's:

STPP for the washing machine.
TSP for the dishwasher.

But again, check your local laws first. :)

Oh, right! And if you are transferring it to plastic bags, wear a respirator or tie a bandanna over your mouth. The very fine parts of the powder before airborne and can be quite caustic if inhaled. I don't know if it's dangerous, but it burns.

[zolotiyeruki]

Remember kids, it's:

STPP for the washing machine.
TSP for the dishwasher.

But again, check your local laws first. :)

Ooh, thanks for the distinction--I was unaware of STPP.  That stuff seems more expensive/harder to find...

Here's my question:  If you've got soft water, will TSP/STPP still be beneficial, or will their effectiveness decrease, since there are fewer minerals in the water?

[Daley]

Ooh, thanks for the distinction--I was unaware of STPP.  That stuff seems more expensive/harder to find...

Here's my question:  If you've got soft water, will TSP/STPP still be beneficial, or will their effectiveness decrease, since there are fewer minerals in the water?

The problem with TSP in the laundry is the precipitate, it's a little... harsh... on fabric and the machines. You need to use STPP for fabrics. TSP is more for hard surfaces.

As for the soft water question, the benefits of phosphates are greatly reduced unless you're dealing with heavy soiling, even after pre-rinsing. Also, Borax is frequently an excellent substitution to boost cleaning power under most circumstances, and can be reasonably effective with sufficient presoak under normal cleaning.

[jac941]

When we lived in Germany last year we had an old British Bosch machine that took 3+ hours to run, used very little water, but got the clothes clean. Also, the coolest setting was 30 C (about 80-85 F). You need warm water and time to wash clothes. I think that's part of the problem with American HE machines. They want to use cold water, low water amounts, non-phosphate detergents, and still wash/rinse a load of laundry in about an hour. That doesn't work.

Now that I think of it when I've traveled to Japan and used the HE machines there, they've done a fabulous job of washing the clothes. They're smaller & do take hours to run, but that doesn't really bother me. I don't have tons of laundry -- I can work with a 3 hour cycle.

Maybe the solution is to import a machine and rewire my laundry room. Ha! ;-)

[Seeking the Brass Ring]

You can get warmer water into the machine if you run the hot water tap on a sink close to the washer until the water runs hot.  This will pull more hot water close to the machine before it starts the cycle.

[Drifterrider]

Have you tried soaking your clothing in the tub (with soap and some agitation) before putting them in the washer?

[zolotiyeruki]

Have you tried soaking your clothing in the tub (with soap and some agitation) before putting them in the washer?

Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of *having* an automatic washer? :P

[mousebandit]

I haven't read all the replies yet (kids want lunch), but we got a new HE washer last year and I was appalled at how little water it used.  SO, I pulled the top off, watched some youtube videos, and hacked it.  There's a little mechanical water regulator -thingy in there, and you can adjust it with a screwdriver to trick the machine into putting more water in.  I got it to a nice sweet spot where the clothes (even filthy kid clothes) get clean, but it didn't trigger the "overfull" alarms.  We still use WAY less water than my old top-loader machine, too, so I am very happy with the compromise.

I made a little youtube video about it.  Your machine will probably be slightly different, but I'm guessing they all use a similar water regulator.  There's also comments on the youtube page from others who had more recent models with more-difficult-to-hack housing around the regulator.  Samsung is on to us, LOL! 

HTH!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoFszdEOCww 

MouseBandit

[lthenderson]

I haven't read all the replies yet (kids want lunch), but we got a new HE washer last year and I was appalled at how little water it used.  SO, I pulled the top off, watched some youtube videos, and hacked it.  There's a little mechanical water regulator -thingy in there, and you can adjust it with a screwdriver to trick the machine into putting more water in.  I got it to a nice sweet spot where the clothes (even filthy kid clothes) get clean, but it didn't trigger the "overfull" alarms.  We still use WAY less water than my old top-loader machine, too, so I am very happy with the compromise.

I made a little youtube video about it.  Your machine will probably be slightly different, but I'm guessing they all use a similar water regulator.  There's also comments on the youtube page from others who had more recent models with more-difficult-to-hack housing around the regulator.  Samsung is on to us, LOL! 

HTH!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoFszdEOCww 

MouseBandit

Most machines monitor water amount using a pressure regulator. There will be a hose attached to it that runs down to the bottom of the tub somewhere. They come preset to have different pressure levels before tripping that can be adjusted most times with a simple screwdriver. The computer of the machine simply checks after a certain amount of time to insure the upper limit has been tripped before proceeding on with the wash cycle. Likewise, it checks the lower limit to ensure that the water has completely drained before proceeding into spin and unlocking the door.

[Drifterrider]

Have you tried soaking your clothing in the tub (with soap and some agitation) before putting them in the washer?

Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of *having* an automatic washer? :P

Not if the automatic washer doesn't get the clothes clean.  With a top loader it is easy to "pre-soak" (always hated the overuse of the word "pre").\

With a front loader, not so easy.

[Dicey]

Following so I can show this thread to handy DH in the morning.

[Choices]

We have a HE front-loader and have had much better luck since we started doing a few things:

1. Wash a cycle on sanitary (super-hot) every week or two. We normally do this with towels and it keeps the mildew smell away much longer so we don't have to wash them as often. It's also good for synthetic gym wear that starts to stink after a while.

2. Leave the door open so it can dry when it isn't in use. This also helps avoid mildew.

3. Check the drain (on the front somewhere, hopefully) as well as the folds of the door seal for pennies, hair, twigs, etc.

4. Change the settings to tell the machine that a load is extra dirty and use warm water rather than cold for those loads. Don't fill these loads as full so the clothes get agitated more.

5. Use vinegar instead of fabric softner in every load.

6. Add an extra rinse cycle to super-dirty loads.

7. Use less detergent. It sounds counterintuitive, but sometimes it just builds up residue on clothes.

8. We usually use homemade detergent: 1 cup borax, 1 cup washing soda, 1 cup baking soda, and 1 bar of soap, all mixed together in a food processor. Use 1-2 Tbsp per load.

Good luck!

[CowboyAndIndian]

Now if Charlie could only make the waste water smell less like a sewer when it pumps out the water.

I had this for a long time. The laundry room smelled of sewer gases.

Figured out that I had put in the output hose too far and it had broken the seal of the p-trap by going past the water barrier.

[TomTX]

I'm very happy with my LG top loading HE washer. No spindle, just texture on the stainless tub.

[pbkmaine]

Hearing the horror stories is making me want to keep my 15-year-old GE top loader with agitator for as long as I possibly can, then buy a Speed Queen top loader mechanical.

[Kaydedid]

+100 for the speed queen.  4 years of heavy use (allergies and cloth diapers), no issues.  IL's fancy HE samsung, bought at the same time and used less?  After beaucoups repairs, died in January.

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