Pipe noise at night: anything I can test/check or time to call plumber?

[Lake161]

While our pipes occasionally clunk when a high flow fixture turns on, lately we've been hearing a louder and different noise at night, when no fixtures are running. It is a rumble like a big truck downshifting followed by a clunk at the bathtub tap. Anything I can check or test or is it time for the plumber? The 3am wake up call is getting annoying.

[BudgetSlasher]

A few thoughts:

1) We have a water cooler with a way too long coil of plastic tubing connecting it to the water supply. You wouldn't happen to have anything connected that would be running at 3am (plastic tubing connection would be my first suspect, but anything with a low flow or a valve that could vibrate would do it)? Think ice maker, hard plumbed humidifier, maybe a water softener (first few times ours ran I thought a pipe had failed) has started to recharge every night . . . If you can think of anything that *might* (maybe someone in the house sets the dishwasher running before bed or on a delayed start) be operating water at that time turn it off or close its supply valve (one a night) and see if that corrects the problem.

2) Are you certain it is your pipes or your pipe alone? Could your water heating system be firing up (our boiler has a low rumble) at that hour (coupled with what sounds like poorly secured pipes the vibration of a heating system and pumps could cause issues); but that depends on how you heat the water. For your water heating/heating system you might want to check that the pressure relieve valves do not show signs of leaking (but they are supposed to pop open and closed, not chatter).

3) What is your source of water? While unlikely you could always turnoff your well pump/close the valve on your water main and see if that addresses the issue (it means you would not have water over night and I would also turn off your water heater).

4) Do you have a whole house expansion tank and have you checked it and its pressure recently? On more than one occasion I have solved a ghost in the plumbing with an expansion tank (or correctly inflating/replacing one).

5) Do you what what you water pressure is? If it is too high it can do weird things to appliance valves when they operate, but something would have to be running at that hour.

6) Do you have anything mechanical that could be kicking on at that hour, like a sump pump?

If I were you I'd do some basic investigation before calling in a plumber to start tracing down the problem.

[Lake161]

A few thoughts:

1) We have a water cooler with a way too long coil of plastic tubing connecting it to the water supply. You wouldn't happen to have anything connected that would be running at 3am (plastic tubing connection would be my first suspect, but anything with a low flow or a valve that could vibrate would do it)? Think ice maker, hard plumbed humidifier, maybe a water softener (first few times ours ran I thought a pipe had failed) has started to recharge every night . . . If you can think of anything that *might* (maybe someone in the house sets the dishwasher running before bed or on a delayed start) be operating water at that time turn it off or close its supply valve (one a night) and see if that corrects the problem.

2) Are you certain it is your pipes or your pipe alone? Could your water heating system be firing up (our boiler has a low rumble) at that hour (coupled with what sounds like poorly secured pipes the vibration of a heating system and pumps could cause issues); but that depends on how you heat the water. For your water heating/heating system you might want to check that the pressure relieve valves do not show signs of leaking (but they are supposed to pop open and closed, not chatter).

3) What is your source of water? While unlikely you could always turnoff your well pump/close the valve on your water main and see if that addresses the issue (it means you would not have water over night and I would also turn off your water heater).

4) Do you have a whole house expansion tank and have you checked it and its pressure recently? On more than one occasion I have solved a ghost in the plumbing with an expansion tank (or correctly inflating/replacing one).

5) Do you what what you water pressure is? If it is too high it can do weird things to appliance valves when they operate, but something would have to be running at that hour.

6) Do you have anything mechanical that could be kicking on at that hour, like a sump pump?

If I were you I'd do some basic investigation before calling in a plumber to start tracing down the problem.

Thanks for such a comprehensive list to explore.

1) the only things hooked up to water besides the sinks/toilet/bath/hosepipes are the hot water heater, washer, and drip irrigation (I'm thinking the latter might be the culprit)
2) no boiler, just a standard hot water tank
3) good idea. Will try this if #6 is not the culprit.
4) no expansion tank. It's a small log cabin with pretty basic plumbing.
5) I do have a water pressure gauge. I will google where best to hook it up and see what it says.
6) just dawned on me that maybe it is the drip irrigation system. Testing now.

[Lake161]

Tried running irrigation system and listening. No noises from plumbing. Reset the timer to run it at 7am just to be sure it is not causing the 3am noises.

Tested water pressure: 58 PSI.

I'm thinking that if changing the drip system timing doesn't solve the problem, then maybe it is time for a plumber and potentially installing an expansion tank.

[sokoloff]

There are dedicated "water hammer arrestors" that can be permanently installed near fast-closing valves to solve the problem. Around $40-60 at a supply house, but you'll need to plumb them in, so add in the cost of fittings and labor if you can't DIY.

If you have a water hammer problem, using one of those is smaller and easier to install than an expansion tank. (Don't fall for the "air trapped in a tube" BS non-solution. You need something with actual passive components inside.)

[sailinlight]

We had an issue in our house there there was a really loud noise in the pipes at certain times for just a few seconds.  "Watter hammer" kind of describes it.  But it turned out that the backflow preventor to the city water source was going bad.  Swapping it out fixed that problem.

[Lake161]

Tried testing two things:
Night 1: changed timing of drip irrigation so it wasn't going on at night. No change in noise at night.
Night 2:  shut off water to house and opened one tap to be sure no pressure on line. At the same time in the middle of the night (3 am), instead of the growling followed by a chunk, there was a loud gurgling like a toilet flushing.

Could there be a big enough pressure variation that even the closed valve didn't stop it? Or could it be a sewer or drain issue?

[zolotiyeruki]

The fact that the noise changed tells me there's something else using water in the middle of the night.  By any chance, do you have a water softener that could be regenerating at 3am?

[ketchup]

The fact that the noise changed tells me there's something else using water in the middle of the night.  By any chance, do you have a water softener that could be regenerating at 3am?

Water softener could definitely do it.  My parents' old house had a water softener and if you were in the basement at 3am, it sounded like the apocalypse down there.

[Lake161]

The fact that the noise changed tells me there's something else using water in the middle of the night.  By any chance, do you have a water softener that could be regenerating at 3am?

Here's the total list of connections:
Kitchen sink
Bathroom sink
Toilet
Shower
Hot water heater
Washing machine
Drip irrigation

No water softener, water hookup to frig, etc.

Short list as it is a small and simple cabin.

I guess I can switch the drip irrigation off entirely, just in case it is going off at a time that doesn't match the programming. I don't think there is anything else to turn off.

[NathanP]

Tried testing two things:
Night 1: changed timing of drip irrigation so it wasn't going on at night. No change in noise at night.
Night 2:  shut off water to house and opened one tap to be sure no pressure on line. At the same time in the middle of the night (3 am), instead of the growling followed by a chunk, there was a loud gurgling like a toilet flushing.

Could there be a big enough pressure variation that even the closed valve didn't stop it? Or could it be a sewer or drain issue?

Based on the Night 2 results, I would suspect it is a drainage issue and not a supply issue. Are you on a city sewer system? Do they activate a pump at night that would change the pressure in the lines? Check the venting of the lines to verify that there is no blockage. Also, check the toilet water level in the morning to see if it has changed.

[BudgetSlasher]

The fact that the noise changed tells me there's something else using water in the middle of the night.  By any chance, do you have a water softener that could be regenerating at 3am?

Here's the total list of connections:
Kitchen sink
Bathroom sink
Toilet
Shower
Hot water heater
Washing machine
Drip irrigation

No water softener, water hookup to frig, etc.

Short list as it is a small and simple cabin.

I guess I can switch the drip irrigation off entirely, just in case it is going off at a time that doesn't match the programming. I don't think there is anything else to turn off.

What kind of shower head do you have? We have this lovely "rainfall" shower head that seems to have a lot of water left in it after a shower . . . and it often decides to all come pouring out a good while after the last shower is taken (often after I am asleep).

How old is the cabin? Any chance that there is a hidden connection, say something like a humidifier attached to a duct that has subsequently been walled over?

There are dedicated "water hammer arrestors" that can be permanently installed near fast-closing valves to solve the problem. Around $40-60 at a supply house, but you'll need to plumb them in, so add in the cost of fittings and labor if you can't DIY.

If you have a water hammer problem, using one of those is smaller and easier to install than an expansion tank. (Don't fall for the "air trapped in a tube" BS non-solution. You need something with actual passive components inside.)

Arrestors are great if water hammer is the issue (and I forgot to mention them, d'oh), I have used them on a washing machine and I would use them in instead of an expansion tank in case.

There are water hammer arrestors that thread onto connections (at least washing machine connections) as well and would not require hiring labor out.

In any case you will still have to run down the source of the noise (if it is supply side) to ID where to install one.

Tried testing two things:
Night 1: changed timing of drip irrigation so it wasn't going on at night. No change in noise at night.
Night 2:  shut off water to house and opened one tap to be sure no pressure on line. At the same time in the middle of the night (3 am), instead of the growling followed by a chunk, there was a loud gurgling like a toilet flushing.

Could there be a big enough pressure variation that even the closed valve didn't stop it? Or could it be a sewer or drain issue?

If the water pressure could overpower the valve on your incoming line, it would likely also damage/overpower just about every valve in the fixtures and appliances.

You could try opening all or at least two fixtures (both the highest and lowest in the house) both hot and cold to ensure the pipes drain.

The noises you describe on night two, could indicate that something opened and the gurgling was air being sucked into and moved through the pipes via the fixture you left open; especially in the faucet you left open was higher than the device that might be drawing water. I would try, as I suggested above, draining the lines and see of the noise reoccurs or changes.

[Lake161]

Night 3 update: unplugged the irrigation system, left water on, then set alarm for 3am to make sure I could see/hear exactly what was going on. Silence! Sat awake for a half hour and heard nothing.

So it could be a fluke, or maybe I've found the problem. I have erased all programming from the irrigation controller, and redid all of it from scratch. I ran it during the day and no sounds. It's now programmed to only go off during the day. Hoping for another quiet night tonight.

[Lake161]

Final (I hope) update.

First of all, thanks to all who gave advice. It helped me run down alternatives.

After a second night of silence, I've concluded that somehow the culprit was the irrigation system. The landscaper seems to have programmed it with all three lines set to "on", even though only one line was connected to anything. I still can't figure out what inspired it to come on at 3:30am, but erasing all programming and starting over seems to have done the trick.

So big save. No call to the plumber needed.