Author Topic: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!  (Read 25051 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2021, 08:25:10 AM »
Most people I know in my life are . . . if not exactly 'dumb' then let's just say badly misguided on many issues.

I know many who are making a huge salary and yet live paycheque to paycheque because they blow all that money on stupid stuff.  And they buy that stuff to make themselves happy, yet are constantly miserable because when the slightest thing goes wrong that impacts their finances.

Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

Anon-E-Mouze

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2021, 05:56:28 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

GuitarStv

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2021, 08:09:39 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Damn you autocomplete!

Anon-E-Mouze

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2021, 12:18:52 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Given this forum's interest in real estate investments, you could say that it was a Freudian autocomplete.

Damn you autocomplete!

GuitarStv

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2021, 12:44:16 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Damn you autocomplete!
Given this forum's interest in real estate investments, you could say that it was a Freudian autocomplete.

With Freud it was always one thing or amother.

:P

ixtap

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2021, 12:51:47 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Damn you autocomplete!
Given this forum's interest in real estate investments, you could say that it was a Freudian autocomplete.

With Freud it was always one thing or amother.

:P

I, eye, aye, almost missed that...

Chris Pascale

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2022, 01:52:33 PM »
Whenever I have shared this thought in real life to friends who are frustrated with our dumb, irrational world, it has gone well and sparked a positive discussion. So I thought I'd try it on Twitter - on average the result seems pretty positive as well.

.................you could do everyone here a favor by closing out your account and doing something else with your time. We just do NOT need negative, critical behavior around here, ever.

The name calling is unhelpful, but I've been able to engage pretty nicely on here with people who've been negative and critical.

I've certainly been both in a couple threads recently (Luxury SUV, Living with Parents, and the "Tight 5" posts).

Having said that, I do put my real name on my posts, so if I'm gonna be like "Pete's a real stupid head," then this Pete feller might just head out to New York and find me.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 04:08:31 AM by Chris Pascale »

sadiesortsitout

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2022, 12:13:13 PM »
My sister texted me recently and said, "Did you read the latest MMM post? He has really softened up!"

Most of us get both softer and tougher as we grow up and life kicks us around a little. Our simple rules don't work out as well as we hoped. It doesn't mean they're without value. It's just that things in this world have a nasty habit of not staying as straightforward as we all thought when we were young and full of big thoughts.

Frugality tends to be marketed around that "I'm smarter than you" rhetoric, which I personally dislike, but it goes back further than MMM. Amy Dacyzyn capitalized it in "The Tightwad Gazette" in the 90s.

To quote Alfred Adler, "Any teaching which cannot be offered in the spirit of friendship is not good teaching." If you've got a hot tip, and instead of offering it to your neighbor, you crow about your neighbor not being smart enough to figure it out? Well, then you're an asshole. But that's okay. Most of us are assholes about something.

I also am not a fan of "face punches" MMM jargon... but then, I've actually been punched in the face, and it turns out it's actually not a super motivating experience.

GuitarStv

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2022, 12:24:53 PM »
I also am not a fan of "face punches" MMM jargon... but then, I've actually been punched in the face, and it turns out it's actually not a super motivating experience.

I boxed for more than a decade, and would have to disagree at least somewhat with this sentiment.  :P

sadiesortsitout

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2022, 12:36:32 PM »
I boxed for more than a decade, and would have to disagree at least somewhat with this sentiment.  :P

Can I submit that it might feel a little different when there are a lot of rules about fairness and who can do the punching, and someone who intervenes if they are broken? Because punches in the wild, don't be like that.

Kris

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2022, 04:27:42 PM »
I boxed for more than a decade, and would have to disagree at least somewhat with this sentiment.  :P

Can I submit that it might feel a little different when there are a lot of rules about fairness and who can do the punching, and someone who intervenes if they are broken? Because punches in the wild, don't be like that.

Truth. Lol.

Tyson

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2022, 11:38:08 AM »
I used to think exactly the same way that Pete did and I was astonished at the repeated bad/suboptimal decisions so many people made. 

Then one day I realized that most people make decisions based on emotion, and everything made a lot more sense.

Later on I realized that I too make decisions primarily based on emotions and then I became a lot more understanding/empathetic to the people around me.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2022, 06:03:47 PM »
I used to think exactly the same way that Pete did and I was astonished at the repeated bad/suboptimal decisions so many people made. 

Then one day I realized that most people make decisions based on emotion, and everything made a lot more sense.

Later on I realized that I too make decisions primarily based on emotions and then I became a lot more understanding/empathetic to the people around me.
The thing I wonder so much about is why other people's emotional decisions differ so much from my own.

I know my own tendency to irrationality is to pursue too much safety. Anecdotally I perceive that a majority of others pursue "too much" gratification - but don't seem to find any gratification in safety. What gives?

I'm glad Pete is getting to speak both as himself (gentle) & as MMM (vehement.) I get a lot out of both, on different sorts of days.

Fru-Gal

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2022, 08:04:35 PM »
Quote
I'm glad Pete is getting to speak both as himself (gentle) & as MMM (vehement.) I get a lot out of both, on different sorts of days.

Ah, nuance. So nice to read it.

I also loved your points about pursuing too much safety or too much gratification.

sadiesortsitout

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2022, 09:04:37 AM »

Then one day I realized that most people make decisions based on emotion, and everything made a lot more sense.


Interesting thing - I read in a textbook at some point that people with substantial damage to the parts of the brain that control emotion - people who are incapable of feeling or expressing emotion who have a "flat affect" - are incapable of making decisions. Without emotion, there is no decision-making at all.

We act as if reason and emotion are in opposition. People talk about the mind and the emotion, the body and the brain, etc. But we are ultimately one organism. What we call emotion is really just thinking from another part of the brain, sending out signals to the body.

If I can nerd out on psychology for a minute: The psychologist Alfred Alder said that feelings are a response to thinking. "A person must first perceive, then feel, then act." When people make decisions that don't make sense to us, it's because they are following a set of internal rules that don't match ours-- Adler called it private logic. There is always a goal. Often the goal is just to have what we think we need to feel equal to the people around us. We perceive shortcomings in ourselves and act to compensate. It's not hard to see why someone might choose to buy a very nice car instead of keep a very nice savings balance - they want to appear equal to (or maybe superior to) the people around them. Savings accounts are private. Everyone can see what you drive!

Adler said the only real antidote to the constant striving for superiority was connection. When we feel like we have something to offer the people around us, and can give and receive and feel like a vital part of our community - that is wellness. Abraham Maslow incorporated that into his theories as well- that when we can move from trying to be better than others to striving for "mastery" of ourselves, we are moving toward self-actualization.

GuitarStv

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2022, 09:31:34 AM »
The understanding of decision making that I've read based on brain state measurements of electrical activity seems to show that the choices we make typically occur well prior to activation of the part of the brain responsible for human consciousness . . . our consciousness seems to function as a post-hoc rationalization rather than cause of the choice.

We've got a fake steering wheel to give us confidence, but it kinda appears that we're passengers in these bodies, not the real drivers.

Fru-Gal

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2022, 03:56:38 PM »
Quote
We've got a fake steering wheel to give us confidence, but it kinda appears that we're passengers in these bodies, not the real drivers.

Absolutely, we tell the story *after* the whole system averted disaster (or felt it). Proprioception as such an interesting sense. If you run on a trail it's amazing how your foot (mostly) avoids rocks that your eyes can't see.

The perfect analogy is the web of life on this planet. We act like we humans are outside of it when we are at best commenting on the massive engine of homeostasis outside of which we cannot exist.

I don't know much about it but the whole mitochondria thing is super cool too.

Love Adler & Maslow!

Quote
Adler said the only real antidote to the constant striving for superiority was connection. When we feel like we have something to offer the people around us, and can give and receive and feel like a vital part of our community - that is wellness. Abraham Maslow incorporated that into his theories as well- that when we can move from trying to be better than others to striving for "mastery" of ourselves, we are moving toward self-actualization.

sadiesortsitout

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2022, 04:12:16 PM »

Love Adler & Maslow!


We'll have to be friends, then!

Adler would have said, yes, we rationalize, and tell ourselves stories after the fact, BUT - our initial responses are based on other stories - our private logic and hidden goals. He called those stories "pre-conscious," and devised exercises to bring them into full consciousness, so that they could be re-jiggered to better suit our current circumstances.

The most common of which is to write down (or tell a therapist) your earliest memory, and see what it offers you as a metaphor for who and what you are, what the world is like, what other people are like, and therefore, what you must do. He also did this with dreams. Some Adlerian therapists use art or music or group activities - not everyone wants to deal with childhood. The point is to uncover the hidden rules we live by, and where they may be creating problems for us. It's super weird, but it is an interesting form of self-reflection!

clarkfan1979

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2022, 09:06:02 AM »
I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology and studied social norms in graduate school. This niche falls into the judgement and decision making category. We are social creatures. Many of our behaviors are automatic and we just follow the crowd. Beyond that, there are many cognitive biases that still exist within our brains that allow us to survive 1,000 years ago. Many of these cognitive biases are no longer helpful, but we still follow them and are correlated with making less than optimal decisions. For judgement and decision making, I personally think Daniel Kahneman's book "Thinking Fast and Slow" is the best available book on how humans make decisions with an emphasis on why humans make less than optimal decisions.

It's very common for all humans to have overconfidence in their abilities. It's very healthy to have a positive self-image and confidence in yourself. The only downside is that if you need accuracy when making predictions about your own abilities, just realize that your judgments will be "best case scenario" and more likely higher than reality. 

People are born with different personalities, so I subscribe to "different strokes for different folks" or "to each their own". However, I will shake my head when people constantly complain about not reaching their goals when they repeatedly make poor decisions. I won't say anything unless someone specifically asks for my advice. However, I will admit that I do pass judgement (privately). I ask myself, "Why can't they see that their decisions are less than optimal?" 

I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate. However, I personally think there is much more to life than a high salary. When I teach my courses students will ask about different career paths. I will admit, that I throw shade at jobs with a high salary on paper, but are soul crushing in real life. I just want students to realize what they are signing up for when they get that "high paying job".


 


GuitarStv

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2022, 10:49:24 AM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Malcat

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2022, 11:56:07 AM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Sure, but medicine has just as much pseudo science in it as psychology. If anything psychology waaaaaaay over corrected in the 90s towards limiting itself to quantitative research methods and throttled a lot of its own capacity to discover new information.

It has since swung back towards accepting qualitative research as a rather necessary adjunct to quantitative research, with experiments often running the two in parallel to glean both controlled quantitative data and richer qualitative data, which gives a much better lens through which to interpret the quantitative results.

The cultural bias against psychology has been very far out of proportion to the reality of the discipline for a very long time.

I say this as someone who did a psych degree 20 years ago and is doing another psych degree now, and may have studied just a little bit of hard science and medicine I'm between, lol.

clarkfan1979

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2022, 08:50:23 PM »
TL;DR:  Thinking you're smart means you aren't.  Thinking every else is dumb means you're smart.

Toque.

I've read your post about four times, and I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion.

My understanding of the Dunning-Kruger Effect is that it has to do with your own personal biases as it relates to your own abilities. It has nothing to do with understating your own abilities as a reflection of those around you.

I can see the first point, that thinking you're smart means you aren't. I don't know that I agree with it, but I can see how you think it might be true (I've worked with dozens of geniuses or near geniuses that knew they were the smartest person in the room). But I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that thinking others around you are dumb makes you smart (I've seen countless times that people have walked into a courtroom, surrounded by incredibly smart attorneys, expert witnesses, judges, and clerks, and the person that dropped out of 7th grade because it was "stupid" equally believes everyone else in that room is an absolute moron).

In my opinion, if you think everyone around you is dumb, you're greatly underestimating the people around you, and will likely get called out on your shit rather quickly.
Perhaps I have a simplistic interpretation of what the Dunning-Kruger Effect is.   My interpretation is that less skilled people will think they're brilliant they can do 'X' and will have an over-inflated belief that 'X' is hard and because they can do it, they're hot shit.....a very skilled person will find that 'Y' is easy for them, and assume that it is easy for everyone so that it's not big deal.   It was easy for them, it's easy for everyone.   In this way, less intelligent people will over-estimate their skill set because things are 'hard' for them, intelligent folks will under-estimate their skill set because things come so easily for them.

I guess I'm fortunate in that I work with a lot of very smart people - they always keep me humble, because I'm not the smartest person in the room.....although, venturing out in the 'real world', I am shocked at how few people 'get' things.   


Sure: when you feel like you're surrounded by smart people, it's very likely you have a realistic - or slightly humble - opinion of your own abilities.  If you think, "I'm smarter than everyone in this room", there's a good chance you aren't.

But if you feel, "I got this really easily, why is it taking everyone else so long to understand it", then you're actually doing quite well.

Honestly, I think who Pete was speaking to in that tweet was people who get angry on the Internet too much.  Like, dudes, it's okay.  If you see stupid people out there, don't waste your time getting angry, just be glad you're smart enough to see the error of their ways and enjoy your life.

Toque.

If you ever had dinner with my extended family, I think you might reconsider this statement.

clarkfan1979

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2022, 08:56:26 PM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Therapists are accepting of pseduoscience, which goes back all the way to Freud. Academic in Psychology do not accept pseduoscience. We tend to be very sensitive to this concept because we realize that it hurts our field.

When I was a graduate student in my Ph.D. program, the Psychology program got a brand new building because we brought in the most amount of research dollars than any other field. People in the "hard" sciences were upset and would say very untrue things about psychology and how it's not a real science. The president replied, "If you want a new building, be like the Psychology program and bring in more money."

Malcat

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Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2022, 06:55:16 AM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Therapists are accepting of pseduoscience, which goes back all the way to Freud. Academic in Psychology do not accept pseduoscience. We tend to be very sensitive to this concept because we realize that it hurts our field.

When I was a graduate student in my Ph.D. program, the Psychology program got a brand new building because we brought in the most amount of research dollars than any other field. People in the "hard" sciences were upset and would say very untrue things about psychology and how it's not a real science. The president replied, "If you want a new building, be like the Psychology program and bring in more money."

My first degree is in research psychology from the early 2000s, and yep, it was *staunchly* scientific with an obsessive commitment to ultra controlled RCTs, to the point of hurting the their ability to interpret data. Thankfully more flexible qualitative methods have become accepted, which is helping provide much more context to the findings of psych RCTs and making them more applicable and useful.

This isn't just psych though, it's happening in all research that is relevant to human health, because RCTs are painfully limited when applying their findings to actual, complex systems like human beings who don't exist in RCT conditions. Qualitative research is actually becoming critical in medicine.

My most recent degree is in counselling psychology, which isn't so much pseudoscience as it is philosophy, which is a very important distinction.

Psychology as a research discipline grew out of psychoanalytic theories, which weren't scientific to begin with, so psych research epically shit on its own beginnings to differentiate itself from it's founding field. This was because of academic politics, not actual need. Many early psychoanalytic philosophers were medical doctors and perfectly comfortable with the need for scientific analysis of the field.

This tension between philosophy and science is historical and silly. You don't need to reject philosophy in order to be scientific.

However, to categorize clinical psychology as "accepting of pseudoscience" is simply not accurate. Just because we study and utilize the tools created by psychological philosophers doesn't mean we "accept pseudo science."

To say this would be to say that ALL medical professionals "accept pseudo science." Because my previous are of expertise was a "hard medicine" area where I worked purely in the realm of treating clearly identifiable physiological health problems with drugs and cutting.

And yet, in most medicine, our treatments are based on just as much historical clinical practice as psychotherapy is. Many of our treatments in medicine, dentistry, PT, RMT, etc, etc were not developed out of RCTs, they were developed out of clinical ideas and trial and error.

This is *exactly* how psychotherapy has been developed.

Clinicians have ideas, they know some of the relevant science, but nowhere near all of it, and they try shit out and see if it works. Just like in psychotherapy, most of the RCTs of treatment effectiveness occur AFTER the treatment was developed and has been circulated within the profession. Not before.

Likewise, we've been RCTing psychotherapeutic interventions for many, many decades and always generally coming up with the same results: they all pretty much work. This is actually MUCH better scientific evidence than every single "hard" medical treatment I've personally had in the last 3 years and that's A LOT of medical treatments. My main treatment right now has ZERO scientific evidence, but is becoming very respected in orthopedic and sports medicine, because it's low risk and sometimes it works. That's often the best you can get in medicine.

Dentists don't even have a single RCT supporting that flossing is important. Hell, I don't think dentists even have a single RCT supporting the benefit of doing fillings. Does that mean they are "accepting of pseudoscience?"

This is the same lack of RCTs supporting most of our treatment of infections. Why? Because we know from clinical experience that infections kill, and it would never be ethical to run RCTs where you just let infections kill people to prove that treating infections actually works.

Most medicine is founded in clinical knowledge, not RCT knowledge, and it's the exact same for clinical psychology.

Clinical psychology works, we know this from research psych RCTs. It works in general, pretty much regardless of the intervention, but definitely correlates with the level of expertise of the counsellor. We don't know how it works, or really why, we just know it works.

This is similar to much of medicine. We don't know how or why so, so much of it works, but we know it works...sometimes...for some people, but we usually can't predict who or how much.

If anything, clinically psychology is actually *more* scientifically defensible than A LOT of medicine.

I'm about to let a surgeon break my legs and he has no RCT defense to back up that this treatment works. None whatsoever, just clinical knowledge and experience. My psychologist has the exact same type of clinical knowledge and experience backing up her interventions with me.

I can only hope and pray that my surgeon is as effective as my psychologist.