Author Topic: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!  (Read 30564 times)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2021, 08:25:10 AM »
Most people I know in my life are . . . if not exactly 'dumb' then let's just say badly misguided on many issues.

I know many who are making a huge salary and yet live paycheque to paycheque because they blow all that money on stupid stuff.  And they buy that stuff to make themselves happy, yet are constantly miserable because when the slightest thing goes wrong that impacts their finances.

Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

Anon-E-Mouze

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2021, 05:56:28 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2021, 08:09:39 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Damn you autocomplete!

Anon-E-Mouze

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2021, 12:18:52 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Given this forum's interest in real estate investments, you could say that it was a Freudian autocomplete.

Damn you autocomplete!

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2021, 12:44:16 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Damn you autocomplete!
Given this forum's interest in real estate investments, you could say that it was a Freudian autocomplete.

With Freud it was always one thing or amother.

:P

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4579
  • Age: 51
  • Location: SoCal
    • Our Sea Story
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2021, 12:51:47 PM »
Looking at these folks and deciding that I can live better/be smarter is kinda a core tenant of this website and the blog.  I feel like that was the point that MMM was trying to get across (maybe clumsily).

I know many people in this forum are keen on real estate investments, but nevertheless, "core tenant" is not the right phrase here. It's "core tenet" :)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tenet

Damn you autocomplete!
Given this forum's interest in real estate investments, you could say that it was a Freudian autocomplete.

With Freud it was always one thing or amother.

:P

I, eye, aye, almost missed that...

Chris Pascale

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2022, 01:52:33 PM »
Whenever I have shared this thought in real life to friends who are frustrated with our dumb, irrational world, it has gone well and sparked a positive discussion. So I thought I'd try it on Twitter - on average the result seems pretty positive as well.

.................you could do everyone here a favor by closing out your account and doing something else with your time. We just do NOT need negative, critical behavior around here, ever.

The name calling is unhelpful, but I've been able to engage pretty nicely on here with people who've been negative and critical.

I've certainly been both in a couple threads recently (Luxury SUV, Living with Parents, and the "Tight 5" posts).

Having said that, I do put my real name on my posts, so if I'm gonna be like "Pete's a real stupid head," then this Pete feller might just head out to New York and find me.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 04:08:31 AM by Chris Pascale »

getsorted

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1715
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Deepest Midwest
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2022, 12:13:13 PM »
My sister texted me recently and said, "Did you read the latest MMM post? He has really softened up!"

Most of us get both softer and tougher as we grow up and life kicks us around a little. Our simple rules don't work out as well as we hoped. It doesn't mean they're without value. It's just that things in this world have a nasty habit of not staying as straightforward as we all thought when we were young and full of big thoughts.

Frugality tends to be marketed around that "I'm smarter than you" rhetoric, which I personally dislike, but it goes back further than MMM. Amy Dacyzyn capitalized it in "The Tightwad Gazette" in the 90s.

To quote Alfred Adler, "Any teaching which cannot be offered in the spirit of friendship is not good teaching." If you've got a hot tip, and instead of offering it to your neighbor, you crow about your neighbor not being smart enough to figure it out? Well, then you're an asshole. But that's okay. Most of us are assholes about something.

I also am not a fan of "face punches" MMM jargon... but then, I've actually been punched in the face, and it turns out it's actually not a super motivating experience.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2022, 12:24:53 PM »
I also am not a fan of "face punches" MMM jargon... but then, I've actually been punched in the face, and it turns out it's actually not a super motivating experience.

I boxed for more than a decade, and would have to disagree at least somewhat with this sentiment.  :P

getsorted

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1715
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Deepest Midwest
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2022, 12:36:32 PM »
I boxed for more than a decade, and would have to disagree at least somewhat with this sentiment.  :P

Can I submit that it might feel a little different when there are a lot of rules about fairness and who can do the punching, and someone who intervenes if they are broken? Because punches in the wild, don't be like that.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7351
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2022, 04:27:42 PM »
I boxed for more than a decade, and would have to disagree at least somewhat with this sentiment.  :P

Can I submit that it might feel a little different when there are a lot of rules about fairness and who can do the punching, and someone who intervenes if they are broken? Because punches in the wild, don't be like that.

Truth. Lol.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3035
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2022, 11:38:08 AM »
I used to think exactly the same way that Pete did and I was astonished at the repeated bad/suboptimal decisions so many people made. 

Then one day I realized that most people make decisions based on emotion, and everything made a lot more sense.

Later on I realized that I too make decisions primarily based on emotions and then I became a lot more understanding/empathetic to the people around me.

eyesonthehorizon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: Texas
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2022, 06:03:47 PM »
I used to think exactly the same way that Pete did and I was astonished at the repeated bad/suboptimal decisions so many people made. 

Then one day I realized that most people make decisions based on emotion, and everything made a lot more sense.

Later on I realized that I too make decisions primarily based on emotions and then I became a lot more understanding/empathetic to the people around me.
The thing I wonder so much about is why other people's emotional decisions differ so much from my own.

I know my own tendency to irrationality is to pursue too much safety. Anecdotally I perceive that a majority of others pursue "too much" gratification - but don't seem to find any gratification in safety. What gives?

I'm glad Pete is getting to speak both as himself (gentle) & as MMM (vehement.) I get a lot out of both, on different sorts of days.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1243
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2022, 08:04:35 PM »
Quote
I'm glad Pete is getting to speak both as himself (gentle) & as MMM (vehement.) I get a lot out of both, on different sorts of days.

Ah, nuance. So nice to read it.

I also loved your points about pursuing too much safety or too much gratification.

getsorted

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1715
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Deepest Midwest
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2022, 09:04:37 AM »

Then one day I realized that most people make decisions based on emotion, and everything made a lot more sense.


Interesting thing - I read in a textbook at some point that people with substantial damage to the parts of the brain that control emotion - people who are incapable of feeling or expressing emotion who have a "flat affect" - are incapable of making decisions. Without emotion, there is no decision-making at all.

We act as if reason and emotion are in opposition. People talk about the mind and the emotion, the body and the brain, etc. But we are ultimately one organism. What we call emotion is really just thinking from another part of the brain, sending out signals to the body.

If I can nerd out on psychology for a minute: The psychologist Alfred Alder said that feelings are a response to thinking. "A person must first perceive, then feel, then act." When people make decisions that don't make sense to us, it's because they are following a set of internal rules that don't match ours-- Adler called it private logic. There is always a goal. Often the goal is just to have what we think we need to feel equal to the people around us. We perceive shortcomings in ourselves and act to compensate. It's not hard to see why someone might choose to buy a very nice car instead of keep a very nice savings balance - they want to appear equal to (or maybe superior to) the people around them. Savings accounts are private. Everyone can see what you drive!

Adler said the only real antidote to the constant striving for superiority was connection. When we feel like we have something to offer the people around us, and can give and receive and feel like a vital part of our community - that is wellness. Abraham Maslow incorporated that into his theories as well- that when we can move from trying to be better than others to striving for "mastery" of ourselves, we are moving toward self-actualization.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2022, 09:31:34 AM »
The understanding of decision making that I've read based on brain state measurements of electrical activity seems to show that the choices we make typically occur well prior to activation of the part of the brain responsible for human consciousness . . . our consciousness seems to function as a post-hoc rationalization rather than cause of the choice.

We've got a fake steering wheel to give us confidence, but it kinda appears that we're passengers in these bodies, not the real drivers.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1243
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2022, 03:56:38 PM »
Quote
We've got a fake steering wheel to give us confidence, but it kinda appears that we're passengers in these bodies, not the real drivers.

Absolutely, we tell the story *after* the whole system averted disaster (or felt it). Proprioception as such an interesting sense. If you run on a trail it's amazing how your foot (mostly) avoids rocks that your eyes can't see.

The perfect analogy is the web of life on this planet. We act like we humans are outside of it when we are at best commenting on the massive engine of homeostasis outside of which we cannot exist.

I don't know much about it but the whole mitochondria thing is super cool too.

Love Adler & Maslow!

Quote
Adler said the only real antidote to the constant striving for superiority was connection. When we feel like we have something to offer the people around us, and can give and receive and feel like a vital part of our community - that is wellness. Abraham Maslow incorporated that into his theories as well- that when we can move from trying to be better than others to striving for "mastery" of ourselves, we are moving toward self-actualization.

getsorted

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1715
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Deepest Midwest
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2022, 04:12:16 PM »

Love Adler & Maslow!


We'll have to be friends, then!

Adler would have said, yes, we rationalize, and tell ourselves stories after the fact, BUT - our initial responses are based on other stories - our private logic and hidden goals. He called those stories "pre-conscious," and devised exercises to bring them into full consciousness, so that they could be re-jiggered to better suit our current circumstances.

The most common of which is to write down (or tell a therapist) your earliest memory, and see what it offers you as a metaphor for who and what you are, what the world is like, what other people are like, and therefore, what you must do. He also did this with dreams. Some Adlerian therapists use art or music or group activities - not everyone wants to deal with childhood. The point is to uncover the hidden rules we live by, and where they may be creating problems for us. It's super weird, but it is an interesting form of self-reflection!

clarkfan1979

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3359
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Pueblo West, CO
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2022, 09:06:02 AM »
I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology and studied social norms in graduate school. This niche falls into the judgement and decision making category. We are social creatures. Many of our behaviors are automatic and we just follow the crowd. Beyond that, there are many cognitive biases that still exist within our brains that allow us to survive 1,000 years ago. Many of these cognitive biases are no longer helpful, but we still follow them and are correlated with making less than optimal decisions. For judgement and decision making, I personally think Daniel Kahneman's book "Thinking Fast and Slow" is the best available book on how humans make decisions with an emphasis on why humans make less than optimal decisions.

It's very common for all humans to have overconfidence in their abilities. It's very healthy to have a positive self-image and confidence in yourself. The only downside is that if you need accuracy when making predictions about your own abilities, just realize that your judgments will be "best case scenario" and more likely higher than reality. 

People are born with different personalities, so I subscribe to "different strokes for different folks" or "to each their own". However, I will shake my head when people constantly complain about not reaching their goals when they repeatedly make poor decisions. I won't say anything unless someone specifically asks for my advice. However, I will admit that I do pass judgement (privately). I ask myself, "Why can't they see that their decisions are less than optimal?" 

I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate. However, I personally think there is much more to life than a high salary. When I teach my courses students will ask about different career paths. I will admit, that I throw shade at jobs with a high salary on paper, but are soul crushing in real life. I just want students to realize what they are signing up for when they get that "high paying job".


 


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2022, 10:49:24 AM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17599
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2022, 11:56:07 AM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Sure, but medicine has just as much pseudo science in it as psychology. If anything psychology waaaaaaay over corrected in the 90s towards limiting itself to quantitative research methods and throttled a lot of its own capacity to discover new information.

It has since swung back towards accepting qualitative research as a rather necessary adjunct to quantitative research, with experiments often running the two in parallel to glean both controlled quantitative data and richer qualitative data, which gives a much better lens through which to interpret the quantitative results.

The cultural bias against psychology has been very far out of proportion to the reality of the discipline for a very long time.

I say this as someone who did a psych degree 20 years ago and is doing another psych degree now, and may have studied just a little bit of hard science and medicine I'm between, lol.

clarkfan1979

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3359
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Pueblo West, CO
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2022, 08:50:23 PM »
TL;DR:  Thinking you're smart means you aren't.  Thinking every else is dumb means you're smart.

Toque.

I've read your post about four times, and I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion.

My understanding of the Dunning-Kruger Effect is that it has to do with your own personal biases as it relates to your own abilities. It has nothing to do with understating your own abilities as a reflection of those around you.

I can see the first point, that thinking you're smart means you aren't. I don't know that I agree with it, but I can see how you think it might be true (I've worked with dozens of geniuses or near geniuses that knew they were the smartest person in the room). But I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that thinking others around you are dumb makes you smart (I've seen countless times that people have walked into a courtroom, surrounded by incredibly smart attorneys, expert witnesses, judges, and clerks, and the person that dropped out of 7th grade because it was "stupid" equally believes everyone else in that room is an absolute moron).

In my opinion, if you think everyone around you is dumb, you're greatly underestimating the people around you, and will likely get called out on your shit rather quickly.
Perhaps I have a simplistic interpretation of what the Dunning-Kruger Effect is.   My interpretation is that less skilled people will think they're brilliant they can do 'X' and will have an over-inflated belief that 'X' is hard and because they can do it, they're hot shit.....a very skilled person will find that 'Y' is easy for them, and assume that it is easy for everyone so that it's not big deal.   It was easy for them, it's easy for everyone.   In this way, less intelligent people will over-estimate their skill set because things are 'hard' for them, intelligent folks will under-estimate their skill set because things come so easily for them.

I guess I'm fortunate in that I work with a lot of very smart people - they always keep me humble, because I'm not the smartest person in the room.....although, venturing out in the 'real world', I am shocked at how few people 'get' things.   


Sure: when you feel like you're surrounded by smart people, it's very likely you have a realistic - or slightly humble - opinion of your own abilities.  If you think, "I'm smarter than everyone in this room", there's a good chance you aren't.

But if you feel, "I got this really easily, why is it taking everyone else so long to understand it", then you're actually doing quite well.

Honestly, I think who Pete was speaking to in that tweet was people who get angry on the Internet too much.  Like, dudes, it's okay.  If you see stupid people out there, don't waste your time getting angry, just be glad you're smart enough to see the error of their ways and enjoy your life.

Toque.

If you ever had dinner with my extended family, I think you might reconsider this statement.

clarkfan1979

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3359
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Pueblo West, CO
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2022, 08:56:26 PM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Therapists are accepting of pseduoscience, which goes back all the way to Freud. Academic in Psychology do not accept pseduoscience. We tend to be very sensitive to this concept because we realize that it hurts our field.

When I was a graduate student in my Ph.D. program, the Psychology program got a brand new building because we brought in the most amount of research dollars than any other field. People in the "hard" sciences were upset and would say very untrue things about psychology and how it's not a real science. The president replied, "If you want a new building, be like the Psychology program and bring in more money."

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17599
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2022, 06:55:16 AM »
I think society in general passes judgement on Psychology majors and the Social Sciences in general because you are not guaranteed a high salary when you graduate.

Psychology in particular has a serious problem with it's acceptance of pseudoscience as a valid part of the field.  At least for me, that's where judgement gets passed.

Therapists are accepting of pseduoscience, which goes back all the way to Freud. Academic in Psychology do not accept pseduoscience. We tend to be very sensitive to this concept because we realize that it hurts our field.

When I was a graduate student in my Ph.D. program, the Psychology program got a brand new building because we brought in the most amount of research dollars than any other field. People in the "hard" sciences were upset and would say very untrue things about psychology and how it's not a real science. The president replied, "If you want a new building, be like the Psychology program and bring in more money."

My first degree is in research psychology from the early 2000s, and yep, it was *staunchly* scientific with an obsessive commitment to ultra controlled RCTs, to the point of hurting the their ability to interpret data. Thankfully more flexible qualitative methods have become accepted, which is helping provide much more context to the findings of psych RCTs and making them more applicable and useful.

This isn't just psych though, it's happening in all research that is relevant to human health, because RCTs are painfully limited when applying their findings to actual, complex systems like human beings who don't exist in RCT conditions. Qualitative research is actually becoming critical in medicine.

My most recent degree is in counselling psychology, which isn't so much pseudoscience as it is philosophy, which is a very important distinction.

Psychology as a research discipline grew out of psychoanalytic theories, which weren't scientific to begin with, so psych research epically shit on its own beginnings to differentiate itself from it's founding field. This was because of academic politics, not actual need. Many early psychoanalytic philosophers were medical doctors and perfectly comfortable with the need for scientific analysis of the field.

This tension between philosophy and science is historical and silly. You don't need to reject philosophy in order to be scientific.

However, to categorize clinical psychology as "accepting of pseudoscience" is simply not accurate. Just because we study and utilize the tools created by psychological philosophers doesn't mean we "accept pseudo science."

To say this would be to say that ALL medical professionals "accept pseudo science." Because my previous are of expertise was a "hard medicine" area where I worked purely in the realm of treating clearly identifiable physiological health problems with drugs and cutting.

And yet, in most medicine, our treatments are based on just as much historical clinical practice as psychotherapy is. Many of our treatments in medicine, dentistry, PT, RMT, etc, etc were not developed out of RCTs, they were developed out of clinical ideas and trial and error.

This is *exactly* how psychotherapy has been developed.

Clinicians have ideas, they know some of the relevant science, but nowhere near all of it, and they try shit out and see if it works. Just like in psychotherapy, most of the RCTs of treatment effectiveness occur AFTER the treatment was developed and has been circulated within the profession. Not before.

Likewise, we've been RCTing psychotherapeutic interventions for many, many decades and always generally coming up with the same results: they all pretty much work. This is actually MUCH better scientific evidence than every single "hard" medical treatment I've personally had in the last 3 years and that's A LOT of medical treatments. My main treatment right now has ZERO scientific evidence, but is becoming very respected in orthopedic and sports medicine, because it's low risk and sometimes it works. That's often the best you can get in medicine.

Dentists don't even have a single RCT supporting that flossing is important. Hell, I don't think dentists even have a single RCT supporting the benefit of doing fillings. Does that mean they are "accepting of pseudoscience?"

This is the same lack of RCTs supporting most of our treatment of infections. Why? Because we know from clinical experience that infections kill, and it would never be ethical to run RCTs where you just let infections kill people to prove that treating infections actually works.

Most medicine is founded in clinical knowledge, not RCT knowledge, and it's the exact same for clinical psychology.

Clinical psychology works, we know this from research psych RCTs. It works in general, pretty much regardless of the intervention, but definitely correlates with the level of expertise of the counsellor. We don't know how it works, or really why, we just know it works.

This is similar to much of medicine. We don't know how or why so, so much of it works, but we know it works...sometimes...for some people, but we usually can't predict who or how much.

If anything, clinically psychology is actually *more* scientifically defensible than A LOT of medicine.

I'm about to let a surgeon break my legs and he has no RCT defense to back up that this treatment works. None whatsoever, just clinical knowledge and experience. My psychologist has the exact same type of clinical knowledge and experience backing up her interventions with me.

I can only hope and pray that my surgeon is as effective as my psychologist.

roomtempmayo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2022, 04:54:49 PM »
Sometimes I struggle to believe he can actually be as blind to his privileges as he seems, or if he does indeed see society as a very unproblematic place.

His latest set of tweets on used cars just stunned me.

Three tweets run together:

Quote
Has anyone successfully bought a car recently? I hear it's tough out there with all the shortages and jacked-up prices.

If you beat the odds, are you willing to share:
- what car you bought
- for how much $$
-  and where you found it?
I have heard lots of scary stories, until my business-whiz next door neighbor just came home with 2007 VW Jetta
which still looks/drives pretty nice, which she got for $500 through a friend-of-a-friend who was going to give it away to a dealer for that price.
Like so many things in life, it seems like personal connections often grant you an exception to prevailing market conditions.
They are also the main source of FUN in life, so maybe the ultimate shortcut to financial independence is just becoming a friendlier person?

Yes MMM, the solution to having all sorts of financial largess come your way is friendliness.  That's how this all works.

My parents gave me a couple cars when I was young.  How in the world did that happen?  Where did that wealth come from?  Well,  my great-grandparents all came to the US to get free land that the United States government stole from Native Americans.  They used that land to build wealth that sent my grandparents to college, which led them to comfy professional jobs with good paychecks.  Rinse and repeat for another generation, and by the time I came around the value of a used car was no big deal.

Turns out that when you are part of a community - by birth, by profession, by race - where wealth has been compounding for generations, there's more largess that sloshes around.

I don't know how much of his desire to ignore structural forces is willful performance, and how much is genuinely reflective of his worldview.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3035
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2022, 06:22:53 PM »
Sometimes I struggle to believe he can actually be as blind to his privileges as he seems, or if he does indeed see society as a very unproblematic place.

His latest set of tweets on used cars just stunned me.

Three tweets run together:

Quote
Has anyone successfully bought a car recently? I hear it's tough out there with all the shortages and jacked-up prices.

If you beat the odds, are you willing to share:
- what car you bought
- for how much $$
-  and where you found it?
I have heard lots of scary stories, until my business-whiz next door neighbor just came home with 2007 VW Jetta
which still looks/drives pretty nice, which she got for $500 through a friend-of-a-friend who was going to give it away to a dealer for that price.
Like so many things in life, it seems like personal connections often grant you an exception to prevailing market conditions.
They are also the main source of FUN in life, so maybe the ultimate shortcut to financial independence is just becoming a friendlier person?

Yes MMM, the solution to having all sorts of financial largess come your way is friendliness.  That's how this all works.

My parents gave me a couple cars when I was young.  How in the world did that happen?  Where did that wealth come from?  Well,  my great-grandparents all came to the US to get free land that the United States government stole from Native Americans.  They used that land to build wealth that sent my grandparents to college, which led them to comfy professional jobs with good paychecks.  Rinse and repeat for another generation, and by the time I came around the value of a used car was no big deal.

Turns out that when you are part of a community - by birth, by profession, by race - where wealth has been compounding for generations, there's more largess that sloshes around.

I don't know how much of his desire to ignore structural forces is willful performance, and how much is genuinely reflective of his worldview.

Does it matter if he's blind to his privilege or not?  If so, why?  And would it change anything about his situation?  Or your situation?  Or mine? 

I mean, the entire premise of the MMM community is to game the system so we all end up with obscene amounts of wealth.  That we become so wealthy, in fact, that we never have to work again.  I would say Pete is no more privileged than any of us here on the MMM forums. 

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1243
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2022, 08:05:12 PM »
So if MMM had performatively complained about the cruel, unfair struggle of buying a car (which he doesn’t think anyone needs in the first place) in an overpriced market, you would be happier?

Also if you’re asking him to go against his instinctive lifelong optimism and iconoclasm, you’re not going to win. Clearly that’s his personality and was what drew us all to his writing. Not only that, he is an immigrant to the United States who recognizes the financial opportunities here as compared to his native Canada. His financial optimism is common among US immigrants.

And if you don’t believe me you can go back to the classic Millionaire Next Door book which has a whole section about enterprising immigrants. Granted, at that time in the book the immigrants were all European but I think it still applies based on the nonwhite immigrants in my family.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17599
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2022, 04:20:43 AM »
So if MMM had performatively complained about the cruel, unfair struggle of buying a car (which he doesn’t think anyone needs in the first place) in an overpriced market, you would be happier?

Also if you’re asking him to go against his instinctive lifelong optimism and iconoclasm, you’re not going to win. Clearly that’s his personality and was what drew us all to his writing. Not only that, he is an immigrant to the United States who recognizes the financial opportunities here as compared to his native Canada. His financial optimism is common among US immigrants.

And if you don’t believe me you can go back to the classic Millionaire Next Door book which has a whole section about enterprising immigrants. Granted, at that time in the book the immigrants were all European but I think it still applies based on the nonwhite immigrants in my family.

Not arguing with your main points, but didn't he make all of his money in Canada and then mostly retire to the US for lifestyle purposes?

Or am I remembering wrong?


uniwelder

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Appalachian Virginia
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2022, 05:34:46 AM »
So if MMM had performatively complained about the cruel, unfair struggle of buying a car (which he doesn’t think anyone needs in the first place) in an overpriced market, you would be happier?

Also if you’re asking him to go against his instinctive lifelong optimism and iconoclasm, you’re not going to win. Clearly that’s his personality and was what drew us all to his writing. Not only that, he is an immigrant to the United States who recognizes the financial opportunities here as compared to his native Canada. His financial optimism is common among US immigrants.

And if you don’t believe me you can go back to the classic Millionaire Next Door book which has a whole section about enterprising immigrants. Granted, at that time in the book the immigrants were all European but I think it still applies based on the nonwhite immigrants in my family.

Not arguing with your main points, but didn't he make all of his money in Canada and then mostly retire to the US for lifestyle purposes?

Or am I remembering wrong?

I think he moved to the US for his first computer programming job after graduating college in Canada.  He seems to have to moved to the US sometime between the first programming job in Canada and before retiring.  It sounds like a job hopping period for better pay, as US tech was paying 2x what he would make in Canada.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 07:10:29 AM by uniwelder »

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2022, 06:23:31 AM »
Sometimes I struggle to believe he can actually be as blind to his privileges as he seems, or if he does indeed see society as a very unproblematic place.

His latest set of tweets on used cars just stunned me.

Three tweets run together:

Quote
Has anyone successfully bought a car recently? I hear it's tough out there with all the shortages and jacked-up prices.

If you beat the odds, are you willing to share:
- what car you bought
- for how much $$
-  and where you found it?
I have heard lots of scary stories, until my business-whiz next door neighbor just came home with 2007 VW Jetta
which still looks/drives pretty nice, which she got for $500 through a friend-of-a-friend who was going to give it away to a dealer for that price.
Like so many things in life, it seems like personal connections often grant you an exception to prevailing market conditions.
They are also the main source of FUN in life, so maybe the ultimate shortcut to financial independence is just becoming a friendlier person?

Yes MMM, the solution to having all sorts of financial largess come your way is friendliness.  That's how this all works.

My parents gave me a couple cars when I was young.  How in the world did that happen?  Where did that wealth come from?  Well,  my great-grandparents all came to the US to get free land that the United States government stole from Native Americans.  They used that land to build wealth that sent my grandparents to college, which led them to comfy professional jobs with good paychecks.  Rinse and repeat for another generation, and by the time I came around the value of a used car was no big deal.

Turns out that when you are part of a community - by birth, by profession, by race - where wealth has been compounding for generations, there's more largess that sloshes around.

I don't know how much of his desire to ignore structural forces is willful performance, and how much is genuinely reflective of his worldview.

I think he would do better acknowledge a good chunk of the luck he's had in his life, rather than the privilege. His next-door friend is not someone everyone has the opportunity to meet, and it's not exactly like you can go out and find such friends the way you can find a job or shop for used cars at a dealer.

Her neighbor's friend 'giving away' the car for such a low price is also somewhat fortuitous. Sure, neighbor had to recognize the bargain and had to be willing to capitalize on the opportunity, but again that's quite a bit of luck that someone in your social network is selling a car for that price.

Now, that's not to say that deals like that can't be had all the time, if you dig enough you'll eventually find them. But even then, you have no idea what's going to happen when you buy the thing. It's equally likely that the Jetta could have major engine issues that are crippling but haven't killed it.

It's been a number of years since I've read more than one or two blog posts to I may be misremembering, but I don't believe Pete ever acknowledges the luck (rather than the privilege[which does exist]) in a meaningful way. He does sort of get near the topic when discussing insurance, but never points to it head on.

As @Fru-Gal points out, Pete is an unabashed optimist. That had a huge impact on his ability to draw readers into the blog, because you have to be intentionally almost blind to the pitfalls of life in order to practice and the preach his ethos. To that end, I don't really see him taking the 'luck' aspect of his life head on in a public setting, because it would be almost completely counterintuitive to the messaging of the blog and his MMM persona.

In fact, in pointing out his fortune for having such a friend, or living in such a great area, or being in good health, or any of the other things in his life that are at least somewhat out of his control, he would probably scoff and rebuke the individual as a pessimist/naysayer/consumer sukka.

But it is important for those of us consuming his messaging to acknowledge the fact that not all of us will be granted the same opportunities as he has enjoyed. That's how I look at the blog, and anything I hear about him these days. When I started consuming MMM, I was ready to emulate every single thing the blog championed. But then I started to have more kids than he had, with a career that has a lower initial earning potential. I had shake the notion that I, too, could be exactly like him. That nuance is easily overlooked in the blog because a lot of it reads like "I did this, and you can too!" when his actual underlying messaging and approach to life was what was more translatable across demographics.

roomtempmayo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2022, 10:12:27 AM »
Does it matter if he's blind to his privilege or not?  If so, why?  And would it change anything about his situation?  Or your situation?  Or mine? 

I mean, the entire premise of the MMM community is to game the system so we all end up with obscene amounts of wealth.  That we become so wealthy, in fact, that we never have to work again.  I would say Pete is no more privileged than any of us here on the MMM forums.

I think we may be here for different reasons.  I'm not here because I'm trying to make every dollar possible, or even necessarily retire early.  I'm just thinking about how to be financially secure enough that I can not think very much about money.

For me, the lack of self-awareness would indicate that MMM is not a great role model.  Living my life without thought to my luck (good framing @chemistk) and advantages implies that I am where I am mostly or entirely because of luck/hard work/virtue.  I'm not.  Most of what I have in life is based on being lucky enough to be born into a family and society and era where my life was possible.  Most people in history, and even in the world today, are not similarly lucky, and no amount of effort would have put them in a similar position.  My experience has been that keeping that reality at the front of my mind tends to humble me and make me more empathetic for those who have been less fortunate.

uniwelder

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1721
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Appalachian Virginia
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2022, 10:31:12 AM »
For me, the lack of self-awareness would indicate that MMM is not a great role model.  Living my life without thought to my luck (good framing @chemistk) and advantages implies that I am where I am mostly or entirely because of luck/hard work/virtue.  I'm not.  Most of what I have in life is based on being lucky enough to be born into a family and society and era where my life was possible.  Most people in history, and even in the world today, are not similarly lucky, and no amount of effort would have put them in a similar position.  My experience has been that keeping that reality at the front of my mind tends to humble me and make me more empathetic for those who have been less fortunate.

I think MMM recognizes all this and has mentioned it at various times.  Maybe thats not the main focus he's preaching about, but it does come up.

roomtempmayo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2022, 10:43:57 AM »
As @Fru-Gal points out, Pete is an unabashed optimist. That had a huge impact on his ability to draw readers into the blog, because you have to be intentionally almost blind to the pitfalls of life in order to practice and the preach his ethos. To that end, I don't really see him taking the 'luck' aspect of his life head on in a public setting, because it would be almost completely counterintuitive to the messaging of the blog and his MMM persona.

Yeah, it's the seemingly willful disengagement from life's difficulties that just puzzles me, but maybe it's totally performative. 

I think back to a few years ago when he got divorced.  For most people, getting divorced is a major life event that prompts lots of reflection.  For MMM, it was like a blip in the introduction to a post about how he was renovating a new house.  While it's totally reasonable to not want to air your marital problems on a blog, marriage and divorce are huge parts of personal finance for lots of people.  The nothing to see here, let's move on dynamic leaves me with the taste of a financial influencer's curated portrayal of their life, not anything representative of their reality.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1243
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2022, 11:42:57 AM »
The victimology some seem to prefer is also performative, is what I’m saying.

I have more kids, more pets, a different gender, more low income family to support, more family with terrible health problems dealt randomly by fate, a traditionally very low income career, more crime-ridden VHCOL area than MMM — yet his advice changed my life and allowed me to FIRE as a multimillionaire.

That said of course I am lucky. Some would say anyone typing into this forum is statistically luckier than most humans on the planet based on where they live, the language used, the economic and government structures they enjoy, the freedoms, etc they have.

MMM is telling us to wake up to this fact! We are all so fricking lucky yet we complain about our cup holders!!

Tigerpine

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2022, 11:58:38 AM »
I don't know if Pete ever said this explicitly, but I think a good part of his message is to eschew the victim mentality, look at your life objectively, identify the resources available to you, and employ said resources appropriately to achieve your goals.

Is Pete lucky?  Absolutely.  Is he privileged?  I suppose in certain ways.  But really, so what?  He has to live his life, you have to live yours, and I have to live mine.  We have to take personal responsibility for our own lives. 

Focusing on Pete's or anyone else's luck and privilege takes away from focusing on working toward your own goals, and it won't change anything.

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3035
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2022, 12:13:39 PM »
I don't know if Pete ever said this explicitly, but I think a good part of his message is to eschew the victim mentality, look at your life objectively, identify the resources available to you, and employ said resources appropriately to achieve your goals.

Is Pete lucky?  Absolutely.  Is he privileged?  I suppose in certain ways.  But really, so what?  He has to live his life, you have to live yours, and I have to live mine.  We have to take personal responsibility for our own lives. 

Focusing on Pete's or anyone else's luck and privilege takes away from focusing on working toward your own goals, and it won't change anything.

Exactly.  Speaking for myself, I'm 1 generation removed from poor white trash.  Generational poverty.  And I've gone through a divorce.  And I have heart disease.  And I'm a (recovering) alcoholic.  And I'm a high earner on his way to becoming a millionaire.  Am I lucky?  Haha, I guess it depends on how you define luck. 

I can say this, luck is not enough, the vast majority of the time.  Luck, plus hard work, plus rational decisions over a long period of time, those things equal long term success and 'grinding it out' till you become wealthy.  I know plenty of people that were born better off than me and those people are struggling financially.  So, 'luck' is not enough. 

It is true that many people have external circumstances that prevent them from becoming high earners or becoming wealthy.  Those people are unlucky.  I feel bad for them, and empathize with them.

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1743
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2022, 12:35:59 PM »
I don't know if Pete ever said this explicitly, but I think a good part of his message is to eschew the victim mentality, look at your life objectively, identify the resources available to you, and employ said resources appropriately to achieve your goals.

Is Pete lucky?  Absolutely.  Is he privileged?  I suppose in certain ways.  But really, so what?  He has to live his life, you have to live yours, and I have to live mine.  We have to take personal responsibility for our own lives. 

Focusing on Pete's or anyone else's luck and privilege takes away from focusing on working toward your own goals, and it won't change anything.

This is definitely the healthiest approach, and to his credit, he offers plenty of tools and real-world examples of how to accomplish this.


Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1243
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2022, 01:06:43 PM »
Quote
willful disengagement from life's difficulties

Also I have to call BS on this because, for example, he has focused consistently on bike infrastructure and redesigning commutes to be bike friendly. He understands people don’t want to bike when they try to share the road with oblivious and entitled car drivers. He has talked about being frustrated when somebody sits and idles their car for no reason. He has used statistics to challenge the idea that biking is more dangerous than the sedentary, environmentally damaging and impatient lifestyle enabled by driving. If he were blind to the obstacles that prevent people from biking then he would not have tried to systematically solve each of these problems and teach people a “third way” of riding a bike that circumvents carbrain.

Then you can go on down the list of points he has addressed in the blog such as how to eat delicious food for less, how to find a much higher paying job than you think is possible, how to cut commute by moving close to work, how to cut driving expenses in half by using one car or eliminate them completely by using your feet, not spending for far-away vacations, buying a used EV or using a minivan or bike trailer instead of a truck, DIY installing solar panels, etc…

He’s also had more controversial advice such as suggesting having only one child, home schooling, not having pets, self-insuring your house or your health, not going to the dentist… much of this advice is accessible to anyone low-income (not always by choice of course).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 01:12:00 PM by Fru-Gal »

eyesonthehorizon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: Texas
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2022, 12:12:16 AM »
I think the unacknowledged elephant in the room with his blog persona's aggressive optimism & downplaying of challenges is that he's said repeatedly he's writing primarily to an intended audience of wealthy, privileged people who pose the greatest risk of harm to fellow humans & the planet if they slide into the consumerism trap. Especially in the United States, where "we're all middle class!" with willful blindness to extreme income inequality, this often requires calling this pampered target audience out when they complain they "can't afford" to make better choices with firehose incomes, go without yet another luxury on top of exploding-volcano-of-wastefulness lifestyles, etc. etc.

Any accounting for actual financial constraints on choices is basically irrelevant, in practical terms, to the intended audience blowing through salaries 10-20x the federal poverty income - & worse, if it comes up it gets reinterpreted by those same people as applicable to their "need" for that non-negotiable third car/ seasonal wardrobe update/ private flight lest they pause on the hedonic treadmill long enough to feel a moment of relative deprivation. Those are the people in "victimhood mentality" for whom the facepunches are doled judiciously out, not the working poor. Constant reminders of how great their lives are, & how easy things are for them, are both appropriate & necessary in that context.

People who aren't living with those means are therefore not centered in the main blog conversation.* I certainly don't get the impression Pete/MMM cares less about people of lower affluence, but they aren't an existential planetary threat on the same level: their consumption is already limited by necessity. He wants people, generally, to be happy, & the philosophy of his writing is aimed at what makes people happy, generally. But the particular material objective of his blog was to get already-affluent people in developed economies to do less catastrophic damage with their outsized privilege, since they do almost all of it, often while begrudging & continually grasping for what they still don't have.

... nuance is easily overlooked in the blog because a lot of it reads like "I did this, and you can too!" when his actual underlying messaging and approach to life was what was more translatable across demographics.
Exactly this.

*There are plenty of bloggers doing accessible personal finance too, it's not like his blog takes space from them! But when it comes to the concrete examples, MMM's impact helping convert people like one of my high-earning government contractor buddies - probably the single highest-net-carbon individual I knew at the time, multiple flights per weekend - to as little as mustachianism-lite takes their absolutely gigantic planetary toll (which falls mostly on the poor) off the table in a single stroke.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1243
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2022, 08:50:29 AM »
Quote
But the particular material objective of his blog was to get already-affluent people in developed economies to do less catastrophic damage with their outsized privilege, since they do almost all of it, often while begrudging & continually grasping for what they still don't have.

Powerfully well put!

And that is a unique niche: environmentalism from a positive standpoint. Most environmentalism is talking about loss, sadness, guilt, shame… and these emotions make people shut down, deny and ignore the problem. Of course there’s a place for all the approaches but that is where he is coming from and I have found it to be effective. It’s well known that personal agency is a key factor in behavior change. And his tips are providing agency to people.

Also there’s a demographic of affluent engineering-minded white guy that is drawn to the petulant billionaire Musks of the world so it’s nice that MMM is pulling from that same demographic but demonstratng an alternate, less-carbonized, non-corporate lifestyle. Because again, going back to behavior, humans are imitative social apes. So an affluent engineer may not be attracted to a guy who looks like a hippie or a woman of color etc.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 08:58:09 AM by Fru-Gal »

eyesonthehorizon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: Texas
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2022, 06:48:15 PM »
Quote
But the particular material objective of his blog was to get already-affluent people in developed economies to do less catastrophic damage with their outsized privilege, since they do almost all of it, often while begrudging & continually grasping for what they still don't have.

Powerfully well put!

And that is a unique niche: environmentalism from a positive standpoint. Most environmentalism is talking about loss, sadness, guilt, shame… and these emotions make people shut down, deny and ignore the problem. Of course there’s a place for all the approaches but that is where he is coming from and I have found it to be effective. It’s well known that personal agency is a key factor in behavior change. And his tips are providing agency to people.

Also there’s a demographic of affluent engineering-minded white guy that is drawn to the petulant billionaire Musks of the world so it’s nice that MMM is pulling from that same demographic but demonstratng an alternate, less-carbonized, non-corporate lifestyle. Because again, going back to behavior, humans are imitative social apes. So an affluent engineer may not be attracted to a guy who looks like a hippie or a woman of color etc.
I suspect the underemphasis on social agency is on purpose. Despair is paralyzing, creates desperation for escape: a profitable way to neutralize threats to status quo hegemony, who are best served if the public continues to either see climate warming as a nonissue, a necessary problem, or one too big to fix. Agency in the public on any issue is a threat to both private corporate interests & governmental powers. (Of course, it's also scary or inconvenient to the portion of the public who find comfort in the familiar.)

So most counternarratives are painted as coming from losers & the deluded or the rare exception who proves the rule. MMM's veneer of "I did this, & you can too!" narrative both flaunts success & attacks excuses at the same time. On the environmental front, it's perfectly tuned to provoke & engage actively the people who are most empowered, even if least motivated (by belief climate action would diminish their quality of life) by offering them a higher quality of life, sneaking the underpinning philosophy past the gate. The rest of us who cared already find it doubly affirming because we came pre-tuned to the philosophical message. It's not without flaws, but it's really clever because of who it works best on, exactly as you call out.

People need to see themselves in their role models in some way, & a lot of people's unconscious (or conscious) biases narrow the field of potential candidates to a slim few, so using that privilege just amplifies the message in the direction of the same powerful who we most need to hear it.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2023, 07:26:17 AM »
Does it matter if he's blind to his privilege or not?  If so, why?  And would it change anything about his situation?  Or your situation?  Or mine? 

I mean, the entire premise of the MMM community is to game the system so we all end up with obscene amounts of wealth.  That we become so wealthy, in fact, that we never have to work again.  I would say Pete is no more privileged than any of us here on the MMM forums.

I think we may be here for different reasons.  I'm not here because I'm trying to make every dollar possible, or even necessarily retire early.  I'm just thinking about how to be financially secure enough that I can not think very much about money.

I realize the conversation has shifted beyond this, but I want to say that this right here sure sounds like an important ethic. Should we discuss whether MMM would agree with it?

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4826
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: When did Pete turn into such an a**hole?!
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2023, 01:17:25 PM »
Does it matter if he's blind to his privilege or not?  If so, why?  And would it change anything about his situation?  Or your situation?  Or mine? 

I mean, the entire premise of the MMM community is to game the system so we all end up with obscene amounts of wealth.  That we become so wealthy, in fact, that we never have to work again.  I would say Pete is no more privileged than any of us here on the MMM forums.
I think we may be here for different reasons.  I'm not here because I'm trying to make every dollar possible, or even necessarily retire early.  I'm just thinking about how to be financially secure enough that I can not think very much about money.
I realize the conversation has shifted beyond this, but I want to say that this right here sure sounds like an important ethic. Should we discuss whether MMM would agree with it?

I got the impression from the latest blog post (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/12/10/the-california-effect/) and the backlash in the comments, that MMM is indeed blind to his privilege.  He attacks San Francisco, of all places, like it's canker sore on the otherwise beautiful face of human existence.  Pete even came back to amend the post with a double asterisk pushing back against the backlash in the comments where real people from San Fran and the Bay Area took issue with MMM's broad brush strokes on how broken they are.

IMHO, Pete has only become further out of touch the longer his blogging continues...