The Gift of Not Worrying About Money

[odput]

I'll open with the fact that the irony of asking this forum (that is filled with people constantly talking/worrying about money) about not worrying about money is not lost on me, but here goes...

I debated starting a journal for this, but I think it's more appropriate here:

While I don't have a spreadsheet that predicts vast riches, I do have a spreadsheet that details out the repayment of a large amount of student loan debt until the end of 2016.  I've reviewed it hundreds of times - multiple times per day, every day for several weeks now.  The numbers never change, and I can't* optimize it further, and I also realize that 2.5 years is a relatively short span over a lifetime, especially one that will reach FIRE around 40.  And yet, I can't stop compulsively checking the spreadsheet, projecting the next month's pay-down, looking for something I might have missed.

And same goes with the blog/forums.  I've read every article ever written on MMM.  Multiple times.  Again in search of something I may have missed.  Some perspective to get it all to "click".  Acutely aware of the law of diminishing returns.

So fellow mustachians, how many of you still struggle with this?  Have you conquered it, and are only here for companionship (and maybe some schadenfreude in the Antimustachian Wall of Shame)?  How did you do it?  How do you continue to execute the plan while liberating yourself of worry?  Don't plans need some oversight to make sure they are carried out accurately, or am I creating a false dichotomy, and the two aren't mutually exclusive?

In short, how did you give yourself the gift of not worrying about money (particularly while still in debt, even though you'll be out and FI in a relatively short time)?

*read: can't get DW to agree to move, and even then the economics of it aren't that great

[sheepstache]

I'm not sure if I'm responding to the right question, but basically I'd say having a plan to deal with a problem and carrying it out in a competent fashion doesn't necessarily mean you don't worry about it.  I know that once you've done everything you can that you should stop worrying...but the human brain is not always rational like that.

Perhaps reassuring yourself that it's normal to worry about being in debt would at least mean you'd stop worrying about being worried.

[Rollin]

It sounds as though you have done a good (or great) job in laying out a plan.  That's half the battle, but you do at some point have to just remind yourself that you've done the best you can at this point - and give yourself permission to relax for a bit.  It's hard to continually optimize, as MMM does.  I do that a lot, much more than anyone around me, but not as much in my estimation as MMM.  I found that can wear me out if I chase every penny (i.e., try to continually optimize).

So, I give myself permission to "stand down" now and then.  Live in the moment and place period check dates on the calendar, instead of keeping them in my head.

Another thought - this stuff (saving, Mustachianism, etc.) is not as exciting as buying something for instant gratification.  In other words, it doesn't have as big a bang.  For example, when I became debt free over ten years ago only I knew it (unless I told someone).  Nobody gave me a present (actually I told a friend and they very thoughtfully send me a congrats card!), the bank didn't call me and congratulate me, etc.  It just happened without any fanfare.  So, if we are looking for fanfare it isn't going to happen.  Just be happy that you are on the right path.

[trailrated]

This might be the opposite of what you are looking for... but I find myself in a similar position of having read and re-read all the articles and constantly looking at spreadsheets etc. For me it doesn't feel like a burden to do so...it feels quite liberating, maybe even like a new hobby. I know I have a plan and that I am on track. And although the numbers might not be climbing at a staggering rate when I look back at where I was when I started there is a sense of pride associated with it.

[Stashy McStasherton]

It sounds as though you have done a good (or great) job in laying out a plan.  That's half the battle, but you do at some point have to just remind yourself that you've done the best you can at this point - and give yourself permission to relax for a bit.  It's hard to continually optimize, as MMM does.  I do that a lot, much more than anyone around me, but not as much in my estimation as MMM.  I found that can wear me out if I chase every penny (i.e., try to continually optimize).

So, I give myself permission to "stand down" now and then.  Live in the moment and place period check dates on the calendar, instead of keeping them in my head.

Another thought - this stuff (saving, Mustachianism, etc.) is not as exciting as buying something for instant gratification.  In other words, it doesn't have as big a bang.  For example, when I became debt free over ten years ago only I knew it (unless I told someone).  Nobody gave me a present (actually I told a friend and they very thoughtfully send me a congrats card!), the bank didn't call me and congratulate me, etc.  It just happened without any fanfare.  So, if we are looking for fanfare it isn't going to happen.  Just be happy that you are on the right path.

I agree with Rollin. Also, thanks for posting this. I am feeling the same way. I spend much of my day stalking my finances. I, like yourself, am still in debt. I have only recently found MMM. When I paid off one of my student loans (5 more and $25,000 to go!) I called the lender to make the final payment over the phone. I was expecting a siren to go off in the background and some sort of congratulatory fanfare to play. It was an anticlimactic "Yay" from me while the employee on the other end of the line asked if there was anything else he could help me with. It is so exciting to bitch slap those debts, but no one else can be as excited as you are about it. That is what we are here for! Wooohooo!! You are rocking it out! Smash those debts! You are doing great!

Don't forget too- Mustachianism is a lifestyle. Go live it! Feel the breeze run through your hair as you ride your bike, get lost in that library book, and bask in the glow of knowing you are not going to spend your entire adult life in a cubicle. Live your life now that your finances are looking spiffy- don't sit at a computer and stare at them. Work on some hobbies so you have something to do when you are not working anymore!

[Aphalite]

I think it's important to realize that your finances are only a part of your overall life satisfaction, albeit a very important part. The way to not obsess about finances excessively is to expand your focus to other areas of your life, like health, fitness, work, friends, learning, etc. and give it just as much focus as you do your finances. Our host keeps a variety of interests and commits equal amounts of attention to them as he does extinguishing debt and investing in the market. Once you have your action plan in order, you have the energy to focus on other things - MMM's most recent articles have discussed his farming out tax financial matters to a CPA, for example.

[thepokercab]

OP, i definitely know where you are coming from.  I'd say, that I had a very similiar experience as yours.  I feel like mine has had three distinct phases. 

Phase 1: The discovery.  I stumble across the MMM and the FIRE community in general.  Lightbulbs are going off everywhere as I immerse myself in countless blog postings and forum writings.  I start cutting out a bunch of useless stuff- overpaid cell plan, second car, eating out (or at least less of it), etc..  I set up my investments, and new accounts. I start creating multiple spreadsheets, plotting out a FIRE timeline.  I spend an incessant amount of time on it, and thinking about how awesome it will be to get to FIRE.  Its like a new toy.  I'd say this period for me lasted about 3 months. 

Phase 2: The Lull.  After the initial 3 or so months, the newness of it has worn off.  I find myself checking Personal Capital multiple times per day, and the amount of time to fire (for me 10 years) seems like an eternity and never moves.  I'm pretty bummed actually.  I want to FIRE, don't want to work at my stressful job.  I've optimized most of what I can, so I don't feel like I can make much more progress. My spending is down, but I kind of engage in a sort of "keeping up with the frugal Jones'" mindset.  I envy the posters who are at or near FIRE. I chastise myself for not getting my grocery budget down to like $150 a month like some people here apparently can.  This last multiple months. 

Phase 3:  Moving On.  I honestly think this is where I am at now.  At some point, I stop trying to compare myself with other people's journey and learn to just be happy with where I am at. I can't pinpoint when Phase 2 ended and when Phase 3 begin, but something definitely clicked at some point.  My spending actually upticks a bit because I realize that if something actually makes me truly happy then its ok to spend some money on it, as long as I keep the bigger picture in perspective.  I start busying myself with learning new skills.  I want to start programming.  I start taking some courses. Re-examine my family life.  The striving for self improvement starts to go beyond the spreadsheet.  I log into personal capital less and less.  The automatic investments are just that, automatic.  I spend less time thinking about them.  Sure, FIRE is some years away, but I start to think about it a bit less.   I even visit MMM and the forum a bit less. 

Anyway,  that's just my experience, but I hope it helps! 

[sandandsun]

This might be the opposite of what you are looking for... but I find myself in a similar position of having read and re-read all the articles and constantly looking at spreadsheets etc. For me it doesn't feel like a burden to do so...it feels quite liberating, maybe even like a new hobby. I know I have a plan and that I am on track. And although the numbers might not be climbing at a staggering rate when I look back at where I was when I started there is a sense of pride associated with it.

Totally agree with this- I don't check daily, but usually once or twice a week... there's just something comforting about seeing things play out exactly as planned (sometimes even better, thank you S&P 500).  I don't do it from the standpoint of worry though- it's a very positive thing for me- kinda like checking on my vegetable plants even when I know they are doing fine, but not ready yet...  it's pretty much my only source of positive feedback as we don't share this info with others.  Paying off house, hitting 1mil NW, etc. - seeing it play out and get closer month by month was very gratifying...
So I would say this is only a problem if you aren't enjoying it and/or it is a source of stress...

[odput]

/snip
kinda like checking on my vegetable plants even when I know they are doing fine, but not ready yet...

This is a perfect analogy...I know everything is going to be fine, and indeed sometimes better than planned, but I still can't stop "checking in".

Maybe worry was the wrong word, more compulsively checking because I want very badly to be at the "end of the road" (at least in terms of the SL debt),and yeah, maybe I am yearning for some fanfare when we finally get there, although, to Stashy's point, it is unlikely to come, so I might as well try to put that hope to bed.

Getting to phase 3 I think is the difficult part...letting the automatic things do their thing and not think about it is why we set them up, so maybe I need some new interests

Good things to reflect on, thanks all for the responses...I'll keep working at it

[steveo]

I think that the constant thinking about it is part of what pushes you to continue the lifestyle and move towards FIRE.

We always hear about goals and how to achieve stuff but I think that this is often more about doing stuff that isn't in congruence with what you really want or who you really are. So when you think about it a lot maybe its because it is more meaningful to you.

[Less]

OP, i definitely know where you are coming from.  I'd say, that I had a very similiar experience as yours.  I feel like mine has had three distinct phases. 

Phase 1: The discovery.  I stumble across the MMM and the FIRE community in general.  Lightbulbs are going off everywhere as I immerse myself in countless blog postings and forum writings.  I start cutting out a bunch of useless stuff- overpaid cell plan, second car, eating out (or at least less of it), etc..  I set up my investments, and new accounts. I start creating multiple spreadsheets, plotting out a FIRE timeline.  I spend an incessant amount of time on it, and thinking about how awesome it will be to get to FIRE.  Its like a new toy.  I'd say this period for me lasted about 3 months. 

Phase 2: The Lull.  After the initial 3 or so months, the newness of it has worn off.  I find myself checking Personal Capital multiple times per day, and the amount of time to fire (for me 10 years) seems like an eternity and never moves.  I'm pretty bummed actually.  I want to FIRE, don't want to work at my stressful job.  I've optimized most of what I can, so I don't feel like I can make much more progress. My spending is down, but I kind of engage in a sort of "keeping up with the frugal Jones'" mindset.  I envy the posters who are at or near FIRE. I chastise myself for not getting my grocery budget down to like $150 a month like some people here apparently can.  This last multiple months. 

Phase 3:  Moving On.  I honestly think this is where I am at now.  At some point, I stop trying to compare myself with other people's journey and learn to just be happy with where I am at. I can't pinpoint when Phase 2 ended and when Phase 3 begin, but something definitely clicked at some point.  My spending actually upticks a bit because I realize that if something actually makes me truly happy then its ok to spend some money on it, as long as I keep the bigger picture in perspective.  I start busying myself with learning new skills.  I want to start programming.  I start taking some courses. Re-examine my family life.  The striving for self improvement starts to go beyond the spreadsheet.  I log into personal capital less and less.  The automatic investments are just that, automatic.  I spend less time thinking about them.  Sure, FIRE is some years away, but I start to think about it a bit less.   I even visit MMM and the forum a bit less. 

Anyway,  that's just my experience, but I hope it helps!

Thanks PokerCab. This was really great to read. I am finding myself in The Lull at the moment and am not totally sure about where to look next. I keep getting onto the train of thought of quitting my acutallynottobadifithinkaboutit job and just putting off pursuing FIRE for a few years to do some soul searching first. Seems like a little bit of a waste though. I think a broader approach to life improvement is probably more constructive then wholesale change just to break out of the rut.

[Beric01]

OP, i definitely know where you are coming from.  I'd say, that I had a very similiar experience as yours.  I feel like mine has had three distinct phases. 

Phase 1: The discovery.  I stumble across the MMM and the FIRE community in general.  Lightbulbs are going off everywhere as I immerse myself in countless blog postings and forum writings.  I start cutting out a bunch of useless stuff- overpaid cell plan, second car, eating out (or at least less of it), etc..  I set up my investments, and new accounts. I start creating multiple spreadsheets, plotting out a FIRE timeline.  I spend an incessant amount of time on it, and thinking about how awesome it will be to get to FIRE.  Its like a new toy.  I'd say this period for me lasted about 3 months. 

Phase 2: The Lull.  After the initial 3 or so months, the newness of it has worn off.  I find myself checking Personal Capital multiple times per day, and the amount of time to fire (for me 10 years) seems like an eternity and never moves.  I'm pretty bummed actually.  I want to FIRE, don't want to work at my stressful job.  I've optimized most of what I can, so I don't feel like I can make much more progress. My spending is down, but I kind of engage in a sort of "keeping up with the frugal Jones'" mindset.  I envy the posters who are at or near FIRE. I chastise myself for not getting my grocery budget down to like $150 a month like some people here apparently can.  This last multiple months. 

Phase 3:  Moving On.  I honestly think this is where I am at now.  At some point, I stop trying to compare myself with other people's journey and learn to just be happy with where I am at. I can't pinpoint when Phase 2 ended and when Phase 3 begin, but something definitely clicked at some point.  My spending actually upticks a bit because I realize that if something actually makes me truly happy then its ok to spend some money on it, as long as I keep the bigger picture in perspective.  I start busying myself with learning new skills.  I want to start programming.  I start taking some courses. Re-examine my family life.  The striving for self improvement starts to go beyond the spreadsheet.  I log into personal capital less and less.  The automatic investments are just that, automatic.  I spend less time thinking about them.  Sure, FIRE is some years away, but I start to think about it a bit less.   I even visit MMM and the forum a bit less. 

Anyway,  that's just my experience, but I hope it helps!

Hah, I like it. Right in the middle of "The discovery" and hoping I can keep riding this train for a while!

[arebelspy]

OP, i definitely know where you are coming from.  I'd say, that I had a very similiar experience as yours.  I feel like mine has had three distinct phases. 

Phase 1: The discovery.  I stumble across the MMM and the FIRE community in general.  Lightbulbs are going off everywhere as I immerse myself in countless blog postings and forum writings.  I start cutting out a bunch of useless stuff- overpaid cell plan, second car, eating out (or at least less of it), etc..  I set up my investments, and new accounts. I start creating multiple spreadsheets, plotting out a FIRE timeline.  I spend an incessant amount of time on it, and thinking about how awesome it will be to get to FIRE.  Its like a new toy.  I'd say this period for me lasted about 3 months. 

Phase 2: The Lull.  After the initial 3 or so months, the newness of it has worn off.  I find myself checking Personal Capital multiple times per day, and the amount of time to fire (for me 10 years) seems like an eternity and never moves.  I'm pretty bummed actually.  I want to FIRE, don't want to work at my stressful job.  I've optimized most of what I can, so I don't feel like I can make much more progress. My spending is down, but I kind of engage in a sort of "keeping up with the frugal Jones'" mindset.  I envy the posters who are at or near FIRE. I chastise myself for not getting my grocery budget down to like $150 a month like some people here apparently can.  This last multiple months. 

Phase 3:  Moving On.  I honestly think this is where I am at now.  At some point, I stop trying to compare myself with other people's journey and learn to just be happy with where I am at. I can't pinpoint when Phase 2 ended and when Phase 3 begin, but something definitely clicked at some point.  My spending actually upticks a bit because I realize that if something actually makes me truly happy then its ok to spend some money on it, as long as I keep the bigger picture in perspective.  I start busying myself with learning new skills.  I want to start programming.  I start taking some courses. Re-examine my family life.  The striving for self improvement starts to go beyond the spreadsheet.  I log into personal capital less and less.  The automatic investments are just that, automatic.  I spend less time thinking about them.  Sure, FIRE is some years away, but I start to think about it a bit less.   I even visit MMM and the forum a bit less. 

Anyway,  that's just my experience, but I hope it helps!

Great post.

Once everything's on autopilot and clicking, it just sort of fades into the background.

The wife and I dream and talk about FIRE, but not really any of the financial aspects of it, or the finances that it will take to get there.  That's all settled.

[fallstoclimb]

While I don't have a spreadsheet that predicts vast riches, I do have a spreadsheet that details out the repayment of a large amount of student loan debt until the end of 2016.  I've reviewed it hundreds of times - multiple times per day, every day for several weeks now.  The numbers never change, and I can't* optimize it further, and I also realize that 2.5 years is a relatively short span over a lifetime, especially one that will reach FIRE around 40.  And yet, I can't stop compulsively checking the spreadsheet, projecting the next month's pay-down, looking for something I might have missed.

I did that with my debt for years.  And I do think it helped accelerate my payoff, although I question if it was really worth that much mental energy.

I just paid off my loans last month and am disappointed to find I'm still not 'relaxed' about money, although that might be because we emptied all our accounts to do it and so have basically no money on hand, which is inherently stressful to me.  Plus it's a transition period to switch from paying off debt to saving.

Fingers crossed that when we rebuild the emergency fund and establish a solid savings rate I'll finally be able to let up about this (although I think getting to 50%, which is my goal, will be a big struggle for us).

BUT one ray of light:  yesterday I was on my own for dinner because my husband was working late.  As I was leaving work I started to think, 'man, it sure would be nice to just get take-out for tonight' -- there was a period of time where whenever one of us was out, the other would just get take-out -- but then my next thought was, 'nah, I'd rather be FI.'  Which is way more fun than thinking, 'no, I SHOULD save the money for my loans.'  So you have that to look forward to!

[MetalCap]

First Post on Here:

We're a year away from being debt free thanks to Dave Ramsay.  I just recently found MMM and am pretty excited about the dream of FI.

Through the past 5 years of paying off debt, when I find myself in that Lull, I look for a new skill/ side project/ improvement I can do to either the house, myself, my family.  It gives you something else to focus on and builds equity/marketability and enjoyment.  It helps break things up and keeps you sane.

Also scheduling bike rides and walks and taking a break during the weekends has become mandatory.  No money on the weekends is the preference.

Hang in there as it gets easier!

[Philociraptor]

odput, I know exactly how you're feeling. We have about $73k left on my student loans, and the progress is downright GLACIAL! I check Mint and PC almost hourly, even though I know money only goes in and out a few times a month. My conservative plan has us FI in 15 years, which feels like an eternity; 15 years ago I was in 5th grade! But the checking doesn't make it go by any faster.

I think it's important to realize that your finances are only a part of your overall life satisfaction, albeit a very important part. The way to not obsess about finances excessively is to expand your focus to other areas of your life, like health, fitness, work, friends, learning, etc. and give it just as much focus as you do your finances. Our host keeps a variety of interests and commits equal amounts of attention to them as he does extinguishing debt and investing in the market. Once you have your action plan in order, you have the energy to focus on other things - MMM's most recent articles have discussed his farming out tax financial matters to a CPA, for example.

This is great advice! If I throw my focus at food, fitness, and friends, it takes away some of the time I spend obsessing over our finances, plus has other benefits (sexiness and happiness). Thanks for posting!

[Less]

odput, I know exactly how you're feeling. We have about $73k left on my student loans, and the progress is downright GLACIAL! I check Mint and PC almost hourly, even though I know money only goes in and out a few times a month.

I have had to limit myself to only recording progress fortnightly. Otherwise i am just tracking market fluctuation and miscellaneous money shuffling and I get despondent at the lack of real progress.

[EDSMedS]

I'll open with the fact that the irony of asking this forum (that is filled with people constantly talking/worrying about money) about not worrying about money is not lost on me, but here goes...
[…]
I've reviewed it hundreds of times - multiple times per day, every day for several weeks now.  The numbers never change, and I can't* optimize it further, […] And yet, I can't stop compulsively checking the spreadsheet, projecting the next month's pay-down, looking for something I might have missed.
[…]
I've read every article ever written on MMM.  Multiple times.  Again in search of something I may have missed.  Some perspective to get it all to "click".  Acutely aware of the law of diminishing returns.
[…] In short, how did you give yourself the gift of not worrying about money?
 

I come here to plan about money, not worry about it.  MMM is simple enough to provide more time for me to pursue my interests, in this case money and society.  I’d like to address two social functions at work in this query: 1) the 40 hr, 8-5, 52 weeks each year that drives an understanding that time given to an activity equals improvement; 2) the frequently repeated, perceived financial woe and complexity that MMM often speaks against. 

1)   My passion is wildly violent and vascilating and cannot be defined or constrained by absolute yet arbitrary parameters such as 8-5.  I hate fluorescent lights.  I have worked in windowless rooms.  Leaving 8-5 is my #1 FIRE reason!!!  During times of brief unemployment it was both frightening and liberating to wake up without a plan for the day.  At first I felt that if I wasn’t staring at my communication devices from 8-5 for any incoming job prospects that I might miss the one perfect opportunity because someone else called back faster.  It was magical thinking and did not drive a healthy day.  After reorganizing my priorities, I realized that I am an early bird!  I had previously hated waking up for constant monotony and thought I was a night owl.  I really enjoy waking up for exercise outside somehow then having a big breakfast soon after.  I can check email every two or four hours and still stay in motion.

a.   I recommend making your role in your personal financial maintenance very explicit.  Write down what you have to do and why (pay monthly rent/mortgage so we can enjoy our home together; student loan debt to deliver higher earning potential; retirement funds so we can leave 8-5).  Once you are comfortable with your responsibilities, you can forget about them until necessary.  For example
i.   ensure that account balances support automatic withdrawals (monthly)
ii.   ensure automatic payments occurred (monthly)
iii.   check for fraudulent activity (monthly)
iv.   budget and track budget (monthly/bi monthly)
v.   check investment progress (annually)

2)   As MMM describes, it can be difficult to snap your brain’s dependency on certain structures that have become hidden reality.   But with finances, I now no longer believe the 8-5 theme that involvement = progress.  I propose: managing requirements = progress.  MMM's system of financial automation and self-exploration seems too simple.  It should be harder.  I too made amazing spreadsheets with variability in income, expenses, interest rates, career choices, and accidents and the numbers always come back ridiculous against my need.  If you have a decent income, can understand how to live a ridiculous life of true comfort while barely spending, and can do basic math, it's pretty fucking simple.  Numbers become irrelevant soon, and you start to think about what to do with your time.

a.   Know what you need to do, take care of it, and then remind yourself that it is taken care of, then redirect!  If MMM has become a space for you to worry about money, it won't help to be here.

b.   When you have a good financial plan that you can trust, it should be easier to start replacing negative financial themes with positive themes.  You can actively say to yourself, “finances are simple.  I can focus on something else now.”  Execute your plan. and live your ridiculously truly comfortable life.  Then you can focus on something else.  Learn something new.  Teach something new.  Make something.  Introduce discomfort!  This is how I use the MMM community: for growth and gusto, including financial.  I am empowered by MMM.

c.   My chosen financial theme is “my choices now are providing options later.”

Best o luck!