The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Continue the Blog Conversation => Topic started by: windawake on June 06, 2015, 09:30:35 AM
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Regarding the newest post: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/06/05/success-even-after-self-destruction/
MMM is quick to point out that the Medium article is very complainypants, but that really rubs me the wrong way. I think the Medium article touches on (briefly) a very important, very relevant criticism of the MMM philosophy, which is that all of us who retire early or are on track to are RIDICULOUSLY PRIVILEGED.
Okay, okay, if MMM is only targeting people who have enough money and who waste it needlessly, then I guess this post is pointless. However, the idea that 'I worked hard for what I got', especially in light of the recent reader case study, is problematic. That user says he didn't finish a college degree, was a former addict, and ex-convict. However, he is also male and (I'm guessing) white, in America. Think about if he was black, a woman, transgender, a person with a disability, someone with a different background, different support, and different opportunities.
A lot of people work hard. A lot of people work really fucking hard and had hard fucking lives and continue to have really hard lives. A lot of people experience institutionalized racism, sexism, ableism, etc. that prevents them from the opportunities you think you achieved from mere hard work alone. I understand that it's hard to target everyone, and yeah maybe some people need to hear that 'hard work is all it takes.' However, that completely disregards the experience of so many people.
I'd recommend reading this for a much better explanation of why 'I worked hard for what I got' is still completely laced with privelege: http://www.vagabomb.com/This-Comic-Will-Forever-Change-the-Way-You-Look-at-Privilege/
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Look, I don't mean to mock, but I'm sure someone over on Tumblr is writing a blog about the underprivilegedness of :
Think about if he was black, a woman, transgender, a person with a disability, someone with a different background, different support, and different opportunities.
The person writing that blog is likely white and female.
That's not what this blog is about. MMM could write every blog post about privilege, but it wouldn't be particularly helpful to anyone. Not every blog post needs a big asterix and a footnote saying "* EXCEPT FOR PRIVILEGE."
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I'd recommend reading this for a much better explanation of why 'I worked hard for what I got' is still completely laced with privelege: http://www.vagabomb.com/This-Comic-Will-Forever-Change-the-Way-You-Look-at-Privilege/
Yes, that cartoon has been mentioned several times. What is not clear (at least to me) is, if we assume privilege exists, what one is supposed to do as a consequence. Any thoughts?
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Interesting cartoon. I just don't like the fact there is no way to independently verify the story. When someone makes incredible claims that aren't typical, it would be nice (like in mainstream reporting and journalism) to know if any significant details were left out or embellished. Like that cartoon shows, it might not even be on purpose, but a flaw of limited perspective (or wanting something to fit the narrative). Just seemed a little too easy for someone who REALLY screwed their life up...
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I get the priviledge thing maybe MMM could have a disclaimer that says "results aren't typical" like those weight loss commercials...all kidding aside I see this from a different angle. MMM has wisely avoided posting about political or social topics, things like racial inequality, policing for profit, income inequality etc because at the end of the day he is status quo. The system is corrupt and heavily tilted against the little guy--that's the prevailing meme of our times--while MMM is doing this "Stop whining the American Dream still works I'll show you how" and there's a lot of people even supporters of MMM who are saying "The American Dream is dead." A deeper problem is that corruption has turned me away from the entire system I for one do not want to spend time away from my children even attempting to work my way up just to see my tax dollars go to droning people in Syria or giving bombs and guns to warlords in Africa...basically 99% of what our taxes are spent on I disagree with outright or have major qualms with the implementation of it. So I see the only solution as withdrawing my support for the system--they can't tax money I don't earn. MMM is partially there he talks a good game about lowering the carbon footprint (implying he believes those scientists) but no doubt in his Vanguard index funds he's got all those evil Monsantos and Syngentas and Goldman Sachs and all the FIRE companies that consume everything in their path. MMM seems to think highly of eugenicist Bill Gates and has even expressed support for the hugely unpopular bank bailouts...to me I love the homebuilding stuff but roll my eyes when he hazards opinions about how the world works for everyone else he's filled with the same contradictions as the rest of us...okay rant over...
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The person profiled didn't just work hard, he worked hard and smart, creating opportunities for himself. Bouncing back from prison is not some minor hurdle that can be erased away with "privilege".
Mad props to him.
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The person profiled didn't just work hard, he worked hard and smart, creating opportunities for himself. Bouncing back from prison is not some minor hurdle that can be erased away with "privilege".
Mad props to him.
So you believe that he failed hard on drugs, ended up a hardcore criminal, and then got on-line, found MMM, and will be FIRE before many of those that didn't have those setbacks... I don't know the details, but my nephew is working to become a surgeon and this guy is apparently just as FI, over the same timeframes...
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I don't know the details, but my nephew is working to become a surgeon and this guy is apparently just as FI, over the same timeframes...
Achieving FI is about your savings rate, not your income. That's the beauty of it. It doesn't matter how much you make or how good your job is (both of which tend to increase with your level of privilege) it only matters how far below your means you decide to live.
While it's certainly easier to live far below your means on a big income you earned by being born a straight white male, I might argue that most people born into privileged circumstances have more difficulty with living below their means than people of more modest beginnings.
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I don't know the details, but my nephew is working to become a surgeon and this guy is apparently just as FI, over the same timeframes...
Achieving FI is about your savings rate, not your income. That's the beauty of it. It doesn't matter how much you make or how good your job is (both of which tend to increase with your level of privilege) it only matters how far below your means you decide to live.
While it's certainly easier to live far below your means on a big income you earned by being born a straight white male, I might argue that most people born into privileged circumstances have more difficulty with living below their means than people of more modest beginnings.
I do appreciate the overall idea you present. Savings rate is what matters. That it is privilege independent, not so much..
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I do appreciate the overall idea you present. Savings rate is what matters. That it is privilege independent, not so much..
Even the hard-line, pull yourself up by your bootstraps-type conservatives, recognize that some have to shoot from half court while others just have an easy layup. There's also the blind midget black single mother, and she's still in the locker room where she can't even see the basket.
We're all really just arguing over how far you have to be from the basket for gloating to be acceptable.
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While I feel bad for the underprivaleged, I have a couple questions for the OP. How many privaleged white males are in america? Maybe 200,000,000; I'm not really sure but I think that's kind of close. Ok, now, how many early retirees? Rough guess, depending on your definition, maybe 1,000-20,000. I think the greater point of the article, and the point I'm trying to make, is people need to stop making excuses and start making shit happen.
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While there are some areas that are definitely spend thrifty, I am actually one who thinks we need to rethink the view of commuting in general. It is sometimes a necessity as there are many factors at play.
Comparing long commuted to buy a new luxury car for someone in need of cutting back is crazy. I would love to relocate. My wife would not. I dislike the house, the location is not all great to find sports groups for me, there are very few little kids in our neighborhood, and it leads to long commutes for me.
The pros - it is a great school district, close to main roads to get anywhere , and close to her parents.
Some people also change jobs. Moving families every few years is not exactly ideal.
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There are so many things I could say, but the real one word reply is choices. Wherever we started out and wherever we are now defines the spectrum of life possibilities open to us. Where we end up on that spectrum depends on choices. What interferes with making good choices is what keeps people on the bad side of the spectrum of life open to them. So whether it is a bad start, bad nutrition, bad health, lack of sleep, too much stress, whatever, the road to improvement is identifying the obstacles, figuring out a way to overcome one, seeing how much (if any) improvement there is, and then redoing the whole process over again with another. And possibly identifying what is impossible so dreams are not misdirected.
A lot of what MMM posts about is related to this - where are you wasting your money (money spent without any life joy recompense)? Too long a commute? Fix it - move, new job, whatever. Too much money spent on toys? Adopt a more stoic (versus hedonistic) lifestyle. What are the weak areas of your life, and how are they interfering with where you want to be? Identify them, figure out possible solutions, apply.
If you think the big issues are societal instead of individual, what are you doing to fix them? Complaining on this board may help you brainstorm what to do, but just whinging will not help you or the greater good.
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Again the challenge with commute is that not all jobs are created equal and moving is not always an option without maybe divorce or other costly means.
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As I felt with the 'mustachianism ruining marriage' reader post earlier (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/is-mr-money-mustache-ruining-your-marriage/msg346736/#msg346736),
this just does not seem like an ex drug addict felon posting to MMM:
'Over the course of those months, I have noted a relatively infrequent but painfully vocal subculture of readers who fervently believe the Vital Tenets of Mustachianism (VTOM) are irrelevant to them, due to what they posit is a lack of fortune or privilege at their own less than ideal starting point. I am here to refute the Waah brigade with my own tale.'
I copy and pasted that word for word (supposed email message), but it sounds a whole lot more like Pete than some other tattooe'd bad-ass working his way up and just finding MMM. I really don't care either way, but I would like to high-light a little 'internet skepticism'.
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While I feel bad for the underprivaleged, I have a couple questions for the OP. How many privaleged white males are in america? Maybe 200,000,000; I'm not really sure but I think that's kind of close. Ok, now, how many early retirees? Rough guess, depending on your definition, maybe 1,000-20,000. I think the greater point of the article, and the point I'm trying to make, is people need to stop making excuses and start making shit happen.
There are 320?? million people in the US, so assuming half are men, that is 160 million. 65% are white, which is around 100 million. So you're off by about 100 million. And, of course that assumes that 100% of white males are "privileged".
As to 1,000 - 20,000 early retirees? Maybe there are...in one medium sized city.
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As I felt with the 'mustachianism ruining marriage' reader post earlier (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/is-mr-money-mustache-ruining-your-marriage/msg346736/#msg346736),
this just does not seem like an ex drug addict felon posting to MMM:
'Over the course of those months, I have noted a relatively infrequent but painfully vocal subculture of readers who fervently believe the Vital Tenets of Mustachianism (VTOM) are irrelevant to them, due to what they posit is a lack of fortune or privilege at their own less than ideal starting point. I am here to refute the Waah brigade with my own tale.'
I copy and pasted that word for word (supposed email message), but it sounds a whole lot more like Pete than some other tattooe'd bad-ass working his way up and just finding MMM. I really don't care either way, but I would like to high-light a little 'internet skepticism'.
Or possibly just sounds like someone who has spent 6 months reading and re-reading all MMM posts and has assimilated the MMM style of writing as well as its content.
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While I feel bad for the underprivaleged, I have a couple questions for the OP. How many privaleged white males are in america? Maybe 200,000,000; I'm not really sure but I think that's kind of close. Ok, now, how many early retirees? Rough guess, depending on your definition, maybe 1,000-20,000. I think the greater point of the article, and the point I'm trying to make, is people need to stop making excuses and start making shit happen.
There are 320?? million people in the US, so assuming half are men, that is 160 million. 65% are white, which is around 100 million. So you're off by about 100 million. And, of course that assumes that 100% of white males are "privileged".
As to 1,000 - 20,000 early retirees? Maybe there are...in one medium sized city.
The numbers, which were all guesswork, are largely irrelevant. The greater point is we all need to make the most of whatever opportunities we have. Privaleged or or not.
However, if you think there are 20k early retirees in a medium sized city, you are mistaken. There might be 20K early retiree candidates in this entire movement. Or 200k if you are crazy optimistic. But the numbers are largely irrelevant and purely speculative.
Either way, it doesnkt change the argument. Stay positive. Do the best with what you have. Try to create more. Don't make excuses.
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Ok, so for me the part of the current blog post that ties into this topic most if the following: "Again, I work like it counts, and it turns out all you need to do to get ahead is BE BETTER THAN THOSE AROUND YOU, which is shockingly easy, because MOST PEOPLE DO A HALF-ASS JOB AT MOST THINGS."
Who are these "most people" doing "a half-ass job"? Are they people doing their best but just not measuring up? Are they people giving what they can of themselves at their jobs but having little left for that, after their home obligations are met?
If it is "shockingly easy" to be better than most people at work... you are probably above average in intelligence or stamina or something like that. Which is great for those who actually are above average... but not everyone is.
I posit that there are likely loads of people who may appear to others to be doing a half-ass job but are actually going at it as full-ass or badass as they realistically can.
Sure, there are loads of others half-assing it our of laziness, lack of motivation or similar things, who would have the ability to perform better in their jobs. But they are not the only kinds of "underperformers" out there.
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While I feel bad for the underprivaleged, I have a couple questions for the OP. How many privaleged white males are in america? Maybe 200,000,000; I'm not really sure but I think that's kind of close. Ok, now, how many early retirees? Rough guess, depending on your definition, maybe 1,000-20,000. I think the greater point of the article, and the point I'm trying to make, is people need to stop making excuses and start making shit happen.
There are 320?? million people in the US, so assuming half are men, that is 160 million. 65% are white, which is around 100 million. So you're off by about 100 million. And, of course that assumes that 100% of white males are "privileged".
As to 1,000 - 20,000 early retirees? Maybe there are...in one medium sized city.
The numbers, which were all guesswork, are largely irrelevant. The greater point is we all need to make the most of whatever opportunities we have. Privaleged or or not.
However, if you think there are 20k early retirees in a medium sized city, you are mistaken. There might be 20K early retiree candidates in this entire movement. Or 200k if you are crazy optimistic. But the numbers are largely irrelevant and purely speculative.
Either way, it doesnkt change the argument. Stay positive. Do the best with what you have. Try to create more. Don't make excuses.
In the UK it's pretty common for people 50 or 55 and up to have difficulty finding new full-time jobs, so there is a significant cohort of unwillingly early retired or semi-retired who are under the state pension age. They might not meet the MMM definition of either FI or RE, but a lot of them will count as "early retirees" in terms of economic activity. I would be surprised if there wasn't a similar situation in a lot of parts of the USA.
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See http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-many-extremely-early-retirees-are-there/ for some discussion on this issue.
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Who are these "most people" doing "a half-ass job"?
You can find some at http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-art-of-not-working-at-work/
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I appreciate the discussion that's happened here, and I'm glad to see that many of you have thought about the issue from a perspective of privilege. I think it's easy to see other people and assume they're just like you, it's just human nature. I just think this is an important thing to consider, especially when talking about 'hard work is all it takes.' Sure, hard work is all it takes IF you've had certain opportunities in your life and IF you have had certain supports and IF you don't have serious limitations (mental illness, disability, etc.) holding you back.
What can we do about it? I don't know, besides generally working to end poverty, discrimination, and towards justice and equality for all. I think it's important to bring compassion and understanding when evaluating others' financial lives. I know I can be a judgmental asshole sometimes, and I'm trying to work on that in all realms of life.
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As I felt with the 'mustachianism ruining marriage' reader post earlier (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/is-mr-money-mustache-ruining-your-marriage/msg346736/#msg346736),
this just does not seem like an ex drug addict felon posting to MMM:
'Over the course of those months, I have noted a relatively infrequent but painfully vocal subculture of readers who fervently believe the Vital Tenets of Mustachianism (VTOM) are irrelevant to them, due to what they posit is a lack of fortune or privilege at their own less than ideal starting point. I am here to refute the Waah brigade with my own tale.'
I copy and pasted that word for word (supposed email message), but it sounds a whole lot more like Pete than some other tattooe'd bad-ass working his way up and just finding MMM. I really don't care either way, but I would like to high-light a little 'internet skepticism'.
Or possibly just sounds like someone who has spent 6 months reading and re-reading all MMM posts and has assimilated the MMM style of writing as well as its content.
Oh, this was totally a fake email. It's obvious as soon as you start reading it. Glad someone else pointed it out. Not that it really matters. He's probably gotten a few similar ones and came up with an amalgam. But it's funny how "Ethan's" writing style is indistinguishable from MMM's :) No one picks it up that well from a few months of reading.
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Alright, I haven't read the rest of the conversation. I just want to post my own thoughts on this. People always say because someone is white and male, they're obviously privileged and got a lot of things without having to do anything for them.
I am a white male.
My parents made sure I ate and was clothed, even if it was hand-me-downs and very basic, home cooked meals. My parents both grew up in poverty and have remained in debt for the entirety of their married life (I think they're almost out of it now, after thirty four years). There were five children in my family, with me being the fourth. I was told that if I wanted anything in life, I had to work for it. My grades were expected to be high, and I was expected to go to college. I didn't have a tutor, because they didn't have the money and studying does wonders (not that I did it that much). I wasn't given money to spend on my own. If I wanted food at home, I had to work the land and the house. If I wanted money from the parents, I had to go do jobs for my dad's business from a young age.
When I went to college, I had never held a job outside my dad's business, in which I'd never been on payroll. I got my first job at a Taco Bell where I knew no one so I could pay for my second semester. By this time my older three siblings had left home and I couldn't get grants. I got only unsubsidized loans, which I refused to take at first. I paid that first semester out of my own pocket, with money I'd saved for the entirety of my time in high school doing odd jobs and working for my dad.
One day, I went to the financial aid office to ask about some help for my second semester. While in there I said, "Hello ma'am. I've paid for this first semester out of pocket, and all I qualify for is these loans. I can't make the payments on them with this interest rate. I've saved up money from a half time job this semester, but I need another two thousand dollars to make tuition for next semester. Is there any way I could get a lower-interest loan or a grant in that amount?" Her answer was "No. If you can't pay for the semester, you'll be kicked out. Have the money". Tuition, by the way, was at most ten thousand a semester. That's the most expensive housing and meal plans, along with the highest allowed course load. As I was leaving, a black man walked in and said "Bitch, I need $22,000." To this, instead of being offended or asking the man any details, asked for his student ID and said "We'll get that for you, sir."
As I was applying for college, fully two thirds of the scholarships I otherwise qualified for had requirements that I be a different race or gender or sexual orientation. I would like to posit that, at least where I'm from, white people are at a disadvantage. I graduated number seven in my class in high school, but at college I had to drop out and go military because I could not get good enough jobs to pay for school, and the financial aid office refused to help me.
In the late eighties and early nineties, my father was attempting to get a business off the ground. This was the same tiny one that I worked at for most of my life. He'd had big dreams to make it his only source of income, but because of what I've got to tell you here, he never was able to make it. He needed a bit of help to get started and make it what he wanted. He called the SBA several times a year for a couple of years, until the phone receptionists got to know his name. Finally, after being denied yet another time, he asked why they wouldn't give him a loan. It wasn't large, smaller than the maximum his credit would allow, and he had a good business plan with customers and a modest revenue, including a growth plan. However, to answer his question he was told "You're white. You'll never get help from us. Quit calling." And like that, they hung up on him.
Let me stress the fact that neither of my parents nor myself nor my siblings have never been given money, cars, jobs, connections to jobs, houses, or any other thing that would set us ahead of others in life. All we got was a place to sleep and eat, and a requirement (not encouragement) that we pay our own way, blaze our own trail, and go far in life. So fuck that. You can't tell me that because I look like other people that are privileged I am too. You can't even tell me that all of us on track to retire early are privileged, because I am. And, just so you know, I've never made more than $22,000 a year, and that was only one year. The rest of the time has been less than $11,000. I am not privileged. And neither are a lot of others. If you work hard and make smart decisions, you can retire early and rich, despite the media and your presuppositions.
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Also, to continue the conversation on opportunity, I'll say something else.
A lot of people appear to think opportunity is something given to you by someone else. I'm sure it can be, but in my experience opportunity is something you make happen. I didn't have a job. Then, I went and applied and got back in touch with the company and then had an interview and then got back in touch with them and then I was hired. You know who wasn't hired? The people who waited for the company to give them a job. You have to work hard to get a job. You don't get to sit on your ass, send in one piece of paperwork, and hope they contact you. Not if you want the job. There is zero opportunity in that, or, at most, as much as you'd get playing the lottery.
Opportunities come from hard work. There's dozens of people who worked hard for years at something, then were suddenly "discovered" and then became "overnight successes". That shit doesn't happen overnight. It comes from years of dedication and persistence, and if you don't have those, then you'll never have the opportunity to expand (or move up, if you will) and be mislabeled as an overnight success.
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All a person can do is work to improve their own situation regardless of the position on the court they are (to use Paul's analogy). There isn't much else to do. I get the argument that telling people all they need to do is be more bootstrappy sucks. But it is in fact the only thing that they can do. They have to be the ones looking to improve their own situation. I know it isn't easy, but no one will do it for them. To use one of my favorite sayings, "You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, which fills up first?" The point is that forward action is the only path. It is unfortunate that someone can try to move forward time and time again and never get anywhere. These things exist. If you are that person then there is only picking yourself up and keep going. If you are not that person then you are at a point where you are now generating a surplus that is more than enough to provide future security, and that is where charity comes in.
At the very least if you're capable of attempting FIRE then you should also be giving to charity IMO. You're life is a fountain of excess at that point that a small siphon won't change things for you but can change things for others.
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Oh, this was totally a fake email. It's obvious as soon as you start reading it. Glad someone else pointed it out. Not that it really matters. He's probably gotten a few similar ones and came up with an amalgam. But it's funny how "Ethan's" writing style is indistinguishable from MMM's :) No one picks it up that well from a few months of reading.
Similar arguments have been made by internet conspiracy theorists that MMM is not a human person, but the fictitious face of a business enterprise concocted by a team of writers working diligently to ensure consistency of style and message across various platforms. In fact, posters like you and the conspiracy theorists themselves may actually be part of the conspiracy, strategically seeding false doubt to circumvent genuine skeptics who may otherwise question why no one else is questioning the legitimacy of this just-a-guy-named-Pete-typing-shit-into-his-computer story.
I'm not quite sure why this type of skepticism develops to such extremes. The explanation that one of MMM's readers simply assimilated his writing style seems perfectly plausible to me. But I agree that in the end it doesn't really matter either way.
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I don't know how this turns into a full blown conspiracy, I just read the email and wonder why these people sound so fake. I mean, 'The Waah Brigade'? It then undermines the novelty of the point, that there is a specific someone out there that has implemented Mustachinanism. To me, it seems like more of the same, that living below your means is possible for anyone and Pete is just coming up with clever ways to play the same message that pretty much every financial independence blog has as its foundation. But I don't think there are any conspiracies afoot.
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What is the point of articles like the one on Medium? The author doesn't want to make any sacrifices or get out of their comfort level at all to better their financial situation? Why is that news?
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I don't know how this turns into a full blown conspiracy, I just read the email and wonder why these people sound so fake.
I didn't mean to suggest anyone in this thread is a conspiracy theorist level skeptic. I was just pointing out that questioning the genuineness of the reader email is one tiny step in that direction, and I was deliberately a bit extreme in my language in a failed attempt at humor - I should have included some smiley's in my post. I just find the skepticism about MMM in general kind of funny - the blog is not holding itself out as a Pulitzer-seeking news organization adhering to the highest standards of journalistic integrity. Even if there is no guy named Pete, and no reader emails, the math and the message are still true.
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What is the point of articles like the one on Medium? The author doesn't want to make any sacrifices or get out of their comfort level at all to better their financial situation? Why is that news?
The point is to generate 500 words to post on some unpopular website. Notice how there aren't any comments and only 4 people "recommended" it? Apparently not too many people were interested in that guy's opinion.
The editorial was likely written in 15 minutes or less with an additional 15 minutes of reading (the author probably read a different article about MMM, but not the blog). "My opinion of X is WORD VOMIT." It's the lowest form of writing cred - very little research or thought is required. The author probably gets paid $10 an article for web site content - if he got paid at all.
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Okay, okay, if MMM is only targeting people who have enough money and who waste it needlessly, then I guess this post is pointless. However, the idea that 'I worked hard for what I got', especially in light of the recent reader case study, is problematic. That user says he didn't finish a college degree, was a former addict, and ex-convict. However, he is also male and (I'm guessing) white, in America. Think about if he was black, a woman, transgender, a person with a disability, someone with a different background, different support, and different opportunities.
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See this post from 2011:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/20/yeah-mr-money-mustache-good-for-you-but-what-about-real-people/
Not every person is a good candidate for the MMM way of life. If you’re already supporting a large number of children (or have other unstoppable life-and-death expenses) on a very small income, you are probably more frugal than me already and can gain very little from reading on.
But what I keep finding every time I meet new people, is that almost everyone has a pretty reasonable income – higher than what we currently live on – yet they all seem to be just barely keeping above the waves financially. Still others have a super-high income (defined by me as over 100k per year for a household – 50k for each person in a couple), yet STILL tend to borrow money for things like cars or even carry a credit card balance. These are my target audience! These are the people who have the power to start feeling like lottery winners on the gusher of income they are currently sitting on, instead of being a slave to their current inefficient spending patterns.
His target audience is stated here, and in many subsequent posts. One dude in CO is not going to come up with a panacea to eradicate world hunger. He's talking to folks who spend wastefully and find themselves in a bind because of it.
Regardless of where you started from, spending mindfully will only help your situation.
It seems silly to throw out his entire idea just because it won't work for every American, or because there are problems it can't solve. There's a subset of the population for whom it'll work brilliantly.
That aside, I found this post less interesting than some due to the somewhat defensive nature of it. I guess that's the side-effect of becoming an accidental public figure- you end up dealing with a lot of opinions.
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Okay, okay, if MMM is only targeting people who have enough money and who waste it needlessly, then I guess this post is pointless.
Well, yeah a little. Did you miss this line in the blog post?
The point is WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE WHO MAKES EVEN MORE THAN ME STILL BROKE, EVEN AFTER 10 YEARS OF ADDITIONAL CRAZY INCOME!?!?
(Bold added)
I don't ever get the feeling that MMM (or the community) thinks that black, blind, transgendered, single mothers with no social support network or education should retire in 5 years or less. I also don't feel like "I worked hard so that's all you need to do" is what MMM was saying in that post. But it is disingenuous to say that hard work doesn't play a role - it's pretty obviously does. The vast majority of Americans are not in the difficult situation you describe, despite the fact that most belong to at least one minority group.
I did think the Medium article was complainy-pants, and it was especially funny (to me) because the author said, "If Mr. Mustache had started with (only!) $20,000 in student debts and gotten a job for $33,000 a year—still over the median per capita income—his story might be very different." I personally had over $40k in student loans, started my first real job making $35k <10 years ago, and am on track to FIRE at about age 35. Sure, it's 5 years later than MMM, but still. And I'm female in a male-dominated career field, raised by uneducated, poor parents.
When we are discussing policy, or institutions, or macroeconomic trends it is useful to look at the disadvantages different groups suffer. We should be working (fucking hard!) to end systemic racism and sexism and ableism and discrimination in all its forms. But when we are speaking to an individual, or when we are thinking about our own lives, it isn't helpful to dwell on the bad cards we were dealt. As individuals, we should make the best use of the cards we're dealt, create the best life we can, and use any excess we create along the way to help those who come after us.
Alright, I haven't read the rest of the conversation. I just want to post my own thoughts on this.
I always skip comments that start with sentences like this. Why should I read your thoughts if you weren't wiling to do likewise?
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Why should I read your thoughts if you weren't wiling to do likewise?
Because they were entertainingly racist? And the anecdotes were obviously fabricated? And some people just need to be shouted down?
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Two things to add here ...
- from the blog post I quote MMM:
The point is WHY THE FUCK IS EVERYONE WHO MAKES EVEN MORE THAN ME STILL BROKE, EVEN AFTER 10 YEARS OF ADDITIONAL CRAZY INCOME!?!?
This is really what MMM is about ... helping many who struggle financially even with crazy income. - A couple of my favorite movies for their inspirational stories :The Pursuit of Happyness (spelled incorrectly by design) ..... The Blind Side ......
There are countless stories about people without privilege overcoming adversity and beating the odds. These are just two examples that come to mind but throughout much of what MMM writes is that all too familiar note of how important attitude matters. Having a shitty attitude about your circumstances is going to get you no where period. Have a great attitude, even when the chips are down .. chances are somebody is going to notice but even still, a positive outlook will move you in the right direction.
Even those of us with 'privilege' .. we've had ups and downs .. and have to adjust our attitudes or a mere downward trend will turn into a death spiral.
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[...] it isn't helpful to dwell on the bad cards we were dealt. As individuals, we should make the best use of the cards we're dealt, create the best life we can [...]
Exactly. Like Kenny Rogers says in The Gambler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4nJ1YEAp4):
'Cause every hand's a winner
and every hand's a loser
and the best you can hope for
is to die in your sleep
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As I felt with the 'mustachianism ruining marriage' reader post earlier (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/is-mr-money-mustache-ruining-your-marriage/msg346736/#msg346736),
this just does not seem like an ex drug addict felon posting to MMM:
'Over the course of those months, I have noted a relatively infrequent but painfully vocal subculture of readers who fervently believe the Vital Tenets of Mustachianism (VTOM) are irrelevant to them, due to what they posit is a lack of fortune or privilege at their own less than ideal starting point. I am here to refute the Waah brigade with my own tale.'
I copy and pasted that word for word (supposed email message), but it sounds a whole lot more like Pete than some other tattooe'd bad-ass working his way up and just finding MMM. I really don't care either way, but I would like to high-light a little 'internet skepticism'.
Or possibly just sounds like someone who has spent 6 months reading and re-reading all MMM posts and has assimilated the MMM style of writing as well as its content.
Oh, this was totally a fake email. It's obvious as soon as you start reading it. Glad someone else pointed it out. Not that it really matters. He's probably gotten a few similar ones and came up with an amalgam. But it's funny how "Ethan's" writing style is indistinguishable from MMM's :) No one picks it up that well from a few months of reading.
I like MMM. I like the blog, and I agree with most of the stuff written on it.
The voice of the person writing this letter is identical to MMM. It would be shocking to me to discover that this letter wasn't written by him. I was saddened to read it.
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I like MMM. I like the blog, and I agree with most of the stuff written on it.
The voice of the person writing this letter is identical to MMM. It would be shocking to me to discover that this letter wasn't written by him. I was saddened to read it.
I'm going to backpedal a bit from my earlier posts in this thread.
Let's assume for the sake of argument the letter is fake--not embellished by MMM for preservation of privacy and/or enhancement of reading entertainment value or anything like that, but totally, completely made up out of whole cloth. I suppose there are some "the ends justify the means" or (along the lines of my earlier posts) "this blog isn't the New York Times" arguments that can be made to defend that action, but if it were true then I would definitely lose some respect for Pete.
However, I still don't accept the argument that he necessarily fabricated the email merely because it sounds to our ears like it's speaking in the same voice. I'm giving MMM the benefit of the doubt -- I'm sure the guy receives fan-mail by the truckload, and maybe I'm naïve but the possibilities that the reader in question adopted MMM's style or that some editing of his emails occurred both seem perfectly plausible to me.
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Two trends in this thread caught my interest. Although I have read many forum posts, I actually registered just to comment on this thread. Hopefully I don't find myself eviscerated by forum veterans and come to regret my decision.
Firstly, with regard to the OP's assertion that "privilege" plays an undeniable role: I agree, privilege is real, whether it be the support of a family with more money (I do NOT come from a family with money) or race (the OP is dead-on correct, I am a white male). Would I have achieved less if I lacked this "privilege?" Possibly, or at the very least it might have taken more time and more effort to reach the same place. But it would not stop me trying, and it would certainly not be my go to excuse for not doing so. If citing disadvantage as a reason to give up was my kind of thing, I would have ample ammunition.
Secondly, I was rather shocked to see that many people seem to think this story was written by MMM himself. I did indeed alter the tone of my writing to fit the purpose, but I honestly thought the differences in our writing were not that subtle. There were NO changes made to my submission by MMM (with the exception a few typos that he corrected).
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Secondly, I was rather shocked to see that many people seem to think this story was written by MMM himself. I did indeed alter the tone of my writing to fit the purpose, but I honestly thought the differences in our writing were not that subtle. There were NO changes made to my submission by MMM (with the exception a few typos that he corrected).
Always good to hear the first-person version - thanks for posting.
Of course...how does one know this is the real, actual, honest-to-goodness Ethan of blog fame, and not some MMM-launched forum bot...? ;)
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Dammit, someone beat me to it. I was just contemplating whether I would squelch or fan the flames of the conspiracy theorists if I made a new account and posed as Ethan, claiming to be the origin of that content.
The internet is a beautiful thing.
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Secondly, I was rather shocked to see that many people seem to think this story was written by MMM himself. I did indeed alter the tone of my writing to fit the purpose, but I honestly thought the differences in our writing were not that subtle. There were NO changes made to my submission by MMM (with the exception a few typos that he corrected).
Always good to hear the first-person version - thanks for posting.
Of course...how does one know this is the real, actual, honest-to-goodness Ethan of blog fame, and not some MMM-launched forum bot...? ;)
Proof = Ethan, holding cheetos bag and MMM blog in background ;)
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Secondly, I was rather shocked to see that many people seem to think this story was written by MMM himself. I did indeed alter the tone of my writing to fit the purpose, but I honestly thought the differences in our writing were not that subtle. There were NO changes made to my submission by MMM (with the exception a few typos that he corrected).
Always good to hear the first-person version - thanks for posting.
Of course...how does one know this is the real, actual, honest-to-goodness Ethan of blog fame, and not some MMM-launched forum bot...? ;)
Proof = Ethan, holding cheetos bag and MMM blog in background ;)
Alas, I was painfully aware of my inability to offer anything resembling proof that I, actualethan, am the Actual Ethan. How about this screenshot of my (secondary) gmail account, which clearly shows my correspondence with MMM stretching back to early May, when I originally submitted my story, along with a brief exchange after it was posted to the blog, and then finally followed by my joining the forum today?
Also - I hate cheetos.
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Secondly, I was rather shocked to see that many people seem to think this story was written by MMM himself. I did indeed alter the tone of my writing to fit the purpose, but I honestly thought the differences in our writing were not that subtle. There were NO changes made to my submission by MMM (with the exception a few typos that he corrected).
Always good to hear the first-person version - thanks for posting.
Of course...how does one know this is the real, actual, honest-to-goodness Ethan of blog fame, and not some MMM-launched forum bot...? ;)
Proof = Ethan, holding cheetos bag and MMM blog in background ;)
If he is, awesome, welcome to the forums - hopefully you'll stick around and share your experiences. If not - does it really matter?
If MMM embellished or amalgamated or fabricated - does it really matter? Is it really worth your finite time on this planet to argue/debate/get your underwear in a knot?
Every one of us is intelligent and capable of free thought and the ability to take away (or not) any message that anyone on the great internet posts and find the useful nuggets, or spend all their time projecting/speculating/theorizing minute details of the message or delivery - which you are free to do, but is it really worth your time? Will you be on your death bed wising you had had one more minute to dissect and theorize a random dude's blog post?
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Ok, so for me the part of the current blog post that ties into this topic most if the following: "Again, I work like it counts, and it turns out all you need to do to get ahead is BE BETTER THAN THOSE AROUND YOU, which is shockingly easy, because MOST PEOPLE DO A HALF-ASS JOB AT MOST THINGS."
Who are these "most people" doing "a half-ass job"? Are they people doing their best but just not measuring up? Are they people giving what they can of themselves at their jobs but having little left for that, after their home obligations are met?
If it is "shockingly easy" to be better than most people at work... you are probably above average in intelligence or stamina or something like that. Which is great for those who actually are above average... but not everyone is.
I posit that there are likely loads of people who may appear to others to be doing a half-ass job but are actually going at it as full-ass or badass as they realistically can.
Sure, there are loads of others half-assing it our of laziness, lack of motivation or similar things, who would have the ability to perform better in their jobs. But they are not the only kinds of "underperformers" out there.
Having worked with 100s if not 1000s of people and supervised 100s - I would say that 50% of the people are above average when it comes to work.
For me it always comes down to dedication. Do you prioritize your job? Do you show up? Do you innovate and solve? Do you sell? Do you generate a positive team environment. So it is easy to see how someone in the top 10% of employees stands out and is promoted. You don't even need to be above 100 IQ.
I think, the poster may be a very bright individual who was motivated, articulate, worked smart and hard. He also was lucky as hell --- don't underestimate that.
My guess is that 50% of the people that read on this forum could be earning over 200K per year within one year in a number of sales and or tech positions if they so desired. For example -- top final expense insurance sales people take home after taxes 200K. They have to be self motivated, focused and work like a fine tuned machine.
So yeah, this success story is an anomaly but is also a real possibility.
I for one am an example of the opposite story. I had a cush government job and decided to give home building a shot. You know, be and entrepreneur. Fail big time. Then stock broker -- failed to have the stamina and time to be successful, although had I the time I could have been making 200K within 5-7 years.
You hear about the success stories --- the failures don't sell. But the truth is that MMM himself is an off the curve anomaly.
But that doesn't mean we can't learn and strive towards that end of the scale. We may fail to achieve at his or anyone else's level but we sure as hell can't win by sitting around whining about how the deck is stacked. That is a guaranteed loser's game.
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I actually have a question for you, Ethan -- how did you deal with your addiction? That was one piece of the story that I thought could have been fleshed out a bit, and that would help explain your climb back out of "rock bottom."
Hope you will join the next Seattle area MMM get together -- I'm going to try to put one together in July, most likely.
I honestly think doing so is MUCH harder in the real world. I was fortunate, and I use that term very loosely and with no small degree of bitter sarcasm, to be completely removed from temptation long enough to get me (more or less) back to square one. It is much easier to resist such temptation when you a) know where that road leads, and b) have moved past any physical dependance by way of years of forced sobriety. Anyone who overcomes addiction out here in the real world should be commended, because it is no easy feat. I also think good old boring willpower played and continues to play a big role; I am able to drink socially (weekends, holidays, camping trips) without being excessive or becoming dependent. That would not have true of the former me, though back in those days alcohol was never my drug of choice.
Hmm, reading over what I just wrote it would appear my advice to struggling addicts is to just go to prison then switch over to hard liquor...? Quick, everyone stop listening to me, I give terrible advice ;)
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Alright, I haven't read the rest of the conversation. I just want to post my own thoughts on this.
I always skip comments that start with sentences like this. Why should I read your thoughts if you weren't wiling to do likewise?
Well, I'm currently preparing to move out of the country in three days and didn't have a massive amount of time. I have more now. I'm just waiting for movers to come grab my gear today. Yesterday I was in the middle of attempting to clear post and run a bunch of stuff because the two brigades can't get their heads out of their asses. As for the next guy that says I'm racist, I'm not. I'm going to tell you my experiences, and when people are talking about "whites are privileged" I'm going to have to reference skin color. I don't give a fuck about your skin color. Every person can do whatever they want, and all bad situations can be either turned to good or moved out of. It's never easy, but it can happen. Also, I didn't fabricate anything. I gain nothing by lying on the internet or in real life. The college thing and my dad's story shocked the hell out of me when I heard them, but if you want to believe I'm lying about it then go ahead.
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It's nice to the see the original case study person chime in. It's also nice that this hasn't degenerated into three pages of arguing about privilege and race (yet). To the OP's point, here is a nicely written article that raises the concern you had: The Privilege Of Pursuing Financial Independence (http://www.frugalwoods.com/2015/02/16/the-privilege-of-pursuing-financial-independence/)
It's a big Internet out there, and you can find many opinions. Or perhaps in this case, lack of opinion.
I saw the original case study as simply an anecdote of what happened in one person's situation, not as a treatise on society as a whole.
Society has bigger problems, everyone (mostly) agrees. They aren't easy to solve.
Either way, good for the people who turn their life into something awesome.
Thanks OP for raising a point that might have been missed otherwise.
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Somebody I knew once accused me of causing him to lose his personal voice, because after six months of dealing with me (in text), he had adopted all of my writing quirks and sounded identical to me. It's a real phenomenon. That said, I didn't think the letter sounded identical to MMM. It's easy to identify various differences.
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Thanks to CanuckExpat for the link. I've added to my reading list for tomorrow. I appreciate all the discussion here, except Michael's input and stories and talking about how it's harder to be white than not. Um, no. If I even try to respond I'll get real pissed.
Anyways, I just think it's worthwhile to keep a compassionate orientation especially on this blog where we do sometimes like to ridicule people for their terrible decisions. It's a delicate balance of poking fun at people who should know better vs. judging decisions that someone made to the best of their ability.
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What is this supposed "white privilege" and where can I get some? I swear to god, if I never hear the word "privilege" again I will be the happiest random person on the internet...
Anyway, Ethan, thank you so much for sharing your story! It was a kick in the mental pants that I needed! I had been comfortable telling myself that since I am not one of these 200k a year engineer folks that there was no point in trying for ER and I should just cut back on the old spending and watch everybody else have fun. You've inspired me to take another look at the numbers and see if I can't come up with some sort of plan.
And for what it's worth I thought this last post was the most "MMM sounding" we've had in a long time. It reminded me of when I was busting through the archives at four blogs per day!
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Both sides in the privilege wars like to set up straw men and then obliterate them.
Of course not every _____ thinks _____, although it sure makes it easier to argue one's own feelings when allowed to fill in the blanks and remove the word "not".
It's harder when one has to acknowledge that there is some validity to an opposing viewpoint.
And the really interesting discussions are "so what do we do as a consequence of agreeing that ______?"
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If nothing else, this thread has been a ripping read with hints of conspiracy, privilege, and some flaring of emotions. What's not to like :)
But honestly, I apologize, actualethan, if I called your claims into question unnecessarily. You just have to see how it looks 'on the other side of the screen'. You were basically the perfect storm of disadvantages (other than race and skin color - maybe you can work on that :) But your story was one of those broadly appealing tales (didn't finish college but had student loans, self destructive behaviors, maxed out credit cards, a felony record...). Pretty much covers everything and then some... But then you work your way up, kicking and scratching, 'which is shockingly easy', arriving at a $60k/yr salary. Cue the Rocky music, you are married, new house and car loan - then you find MMM and will also retire early. As you say: "If a college dropout former drug addict ex-convict with a mountain of bad debt who did not even start seriously working until he was 35 years old can destroy his debts and be on track to retire early after 15 years, or possibly sooner, then ANYONE CAN DO IT, regardless of the obstacles."
I don't disagree that financial independence is possible for anyone, but it's not necessarily 'shockingly easy' (unless you are one of those six-figure engineers that lands a job out of college. Us pampered white guys should be capable of FI in 10 years or less without breaking a sweat. But that was not the message MMM wants to be known for, and your story conveniently makes ER broadly applicable).
The only thing I would like to add is, as some folks have touched on, one of the best things people with solid foundations can do is vouch for people who have felony records or substance abuse in their background. Houston is chock-full of people that need an opportunity to get their foot in the door, and it is shockingly hard to compete for entry-level jobs when you have to check-off that you are a convicted felon, no matter how awesome and badass a worker you are.
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If nothing else, this thread has been a ripping read with hints of conspiracy, privilege, and some flaring of emotions. What's not to like :)
But honestly, I apologize, actualethan, if I called your claims into question unnecessarily. You just have to see how it looks 'on the other side of the screen'. You were basically the perfect storm of disadvantages (other than race and skin color - maybe you can work on that :) But your story was one of those broadly appealing tales (didn't finish college but had student loans, self destructive behaviors, maxed out credit cards, a felony record...). Pretty much covers everything and then some... But then you work your way up, kicking and scratching, 'which is shockingly easy', arriving at a $60k/yr salary. Cue the Rocky music, you are married, new house and car loan - then you find MMM and will also retire early. As you say: "If a college dropout former drug addict ex-convict with a mountain of bad debt who did not even start seriously working until he was 35 years old can destroy his debts and be on track to retire early after 15 years, or possibly sooner, then ANYONE CAN DO IT, regardless of the obstacles."
I don't disagree that financial independence is possible for anyone, but it's not necessarily 'shockingly easy' (unless you are one of those six-figure engineers that lands a job out of college. Us pampered white guys should be capable of FI in 10 years or less without breaking a sweat. But that was not the message MMM wants to be known for, and your story conveniently makes ER broadly applicable).
The only thing I would like to add is, as some folks have touched on, one of the best things people with solid foundations can do is vouch for people who have felony records or substance abuse in their background. Houston is chock-full of people that need an opportunity to get their foot in the door, and it is shockingly hard to compete for entry-level jobs when you have to check-off that you are a convicted felon, no matter how awesome and badass a worker you are.
You make an excellent point here. The use of the words "shockingly easy" was not only subjectively inaccurate, but actually serves more to undermine my overall point than augment it. I would have been better served to say "surprisingly attainable."
I have always seen the MMM blog as not so much focused on hoarding wealth or retiring early, but rather improving one's quality of life. I think this is why his topics are so far ranging; he touches not only on finances but also physical fitness, nutrition, home improvement, etc. From this I draw an implied message that the ONLY competition in life is competition with one's self. If I were forced to measure my success against others on this forum, for example, I suspect I would be near the bottom in terms of financial success. $60k is, in this crowd, likely nothing special. So for me, when I say (perhaps erroneously) that success is "shockingly easy," what I really mean is that doing better than the you of yesterday is actually not as hard as it might seem. Whether that means saving a little more, spending a little less, eating a little better, lifting a little more or wasting a little less time, they are all battles that can be won by just about anyone. And forward progress can be very intoxicating :)
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If nothing else, this thread has been a ripping read with hints of conspiracy, privilege, and some flaring of emotions. What's not to like :)
But honestly, I apologize, actualethan, if I called your claims into question unnecessarily. You just have to see how it looks 'on the other side of the screen'. You were basically the perfect storm of disadvantages (other than race and skin color - maybe you can work on that :) But your story was one of those broadly appealing tales (didn't finish college but had student loans, self destructive behaviors, maxed out credit cards, a felony record...). Pretty much covers everything and then some... But then you work your way up, kicking and scratching, 'which is shockingly easy', arriving at a $60k/yr salary. Cue the Rocky music, you are married, new house and car loan - then you find MMM and will also retire early. As you say: "If a college dropout former drug addict ex-convict with a mountain of bad debt who did not even start seriously working until he was 35 years old can destroy his debts and be on track to retire early after 15 years, or possibly sooner, then ANYONE CAN DO IT, regardless of the obstacles."
I don't disagree that financial independence is possible for anyone, but it's not necessarily 'shockingly easy' (unless you are one of those six-figure engineers that lands a job out of college. Us pampered white guys should be capable of FI in 10 years or less without breaking a sweat. But that was not the message MMM wants to be known for, and your story conveniently makes ER broadly applicable).
The only thing I would like to add is, as some folks have touched on, one of the best things people with solid foundations can do is vouch for people who have felony records or substance abuse in their background. Houston is chock-full of people that need an opportunity to get their foot in the door, and it is shockingly hard to compete for entry-level jobs when you have to check-off that you are a convicted felon, no matter how awesome and badass a worker you are.
You make an excellent point here. The use of the words "shockingly easy" was not only subjectively inaccurate, but actually serves more to undermine my overall point than augment it. I would have been better served to say "surprisingly attainable."
I have always seen the MMM blog as not so much focused on hoarding wealth or retiring early, but rather improving one's quality of life. I think this is why his topics are so far ranging; he touches not only on finances but also physical fitness, nutrition, home improvement, etc. From this I draw an implied message that the ONLY competition in life is competition with one's self. If I were forced to measure my success against others on this forum, for example, I suspect I would be near the bottom in terms of financial success. $60k is, in this crowd, likely nothing special. So for me, when I say (perhaps erroneously) that success is "shockingly easy," what I really mean is that doing better than the you of yesterday is actually not as hard as it might seem. Whether that means saving a little more, spending a little less, eating a little better, lifting a little more or wasting a little less time, they are all battles that can be won by just about anyone. And forward progress can be very intoxicating :)
You're supposed to drop the mic after that.
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It's infuriating when white men say, heh heh where's this white privilege and how can I get some? The fact that you are unaware of it is indicative of the fact that you have it. Do you fear walking your safe neighborhood at night because someone might assault you based solely on your gender? Are you targeted by police disproportionately because of your skin color? No. You have so many benefits that many others do not have. You're more likely to be hired and paid better, more likely to be accepted to college, and others. Just stop with that attitude.
Privilege doesn't mean you're bad or that you didn't work hard for what you have. It just means that a person with similar qualifications would have to work much harder if they were of a minority group.
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It's infuriating when white men say,
I infuriate you, you infuriate me, I guess we're even? ;)
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It's infuriating when white men say,
I infuriate you, you infuriate me, I guess we're even? ;)
Either of you care to write a serious example of when the other's viewpoint would be accurate?
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I haven't had a chance to thoroughly read the whole thread of comments, but I did skim them. My apologies if someone else brought this up, but one thing that jumped out at me reading the post and the MMM's claim that it proved that Mustachianism works no matter what was that this was a single anecdote with a heavy dose survivor bias. In the relatively brief narrative we see a person who climbed out of a hole and then later got on the Mustachian bandwagon. That in and of itself is definitely praiseworthy and evidence that success is possible, but it doesn't really prove MMM's assertion that Mustachiansim cannot be defeated. Even if one removes the question of privilege, I find it difficult to accept that the same pluck and resolve will necessarily be rewarded with the same outcome and that every outcome will be met with success. Thus the narrative makes for great personal testimony, but not much else.
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It's infuriating when white men say, heh heh where's this white privilege and how can I get some? The fact that you are unaware of it is indicative of the fact that you have it. Do you fear walking your safe neighborhood at night because someone might assault you based solely on your gender? Are you targeted by police disproportionately because of your skin color? No. You have so many benefits that many others do not have. You're more likely to be hired and paid better, more likely to be accepted to college, and others. Just stop with that attitude.
While I appreciate windawake's attempts to highlight inequality in the world, I think her specific examples here are probably not the best ones available.
I fear walking in lots of neighborhoods at night. Sometimes because of my gender (men are disproportionately the victims of physical violence) and sometime because of my skin color (I have only been beaten to a bloody pulp once in my life, and it was because I was a white kid in a black space). Yes, violence against women is a terrible problem and a blight on our civilization. It's just less prevalent than violence against men.
Everyone fears walking in a bad neighborhood at night. Don't confuse rational evaluation of a safety hazard with targeted race or gender discrimination.
I agree with the assessment of police bias. I've never encountered a police officer who wanted to harm me, as long as I was polite and compliant. Some of my less polite and less compliant friends, of all skin colors, have been less "fortunate" in their police encounters. I'm sure there are some cops who are inadvertently racist, but I'm also pretty sure that ALL cops are deliberately aggressive with people who have bad attitudes. I'm not discounting race as a factor in police treatment, I just don't think it's number one on the list of determinative factors.
I also agree that as a white male I am more likely to be hired for most jobs. Not my particular job, not even my category of job, but across the economy I think white people and male people both receive some degree of subconscious preferential treatment in hiring decision. Some jobs are harder for men to get (primary schoolteachers, for example) and some jobs are harder for white people to get (explicit racial minority hiring quotas still exist in some places) but on the whole employment bias favors men, because hiring managers of both genders still perceive men as more qualified than equivalent female candidates. You can hardly fault the applicants for this, though.
I disagree that men are more likely to be accepted to college. Women make up the majority of college applicants, a larger majority of college students, and an even larger majority of college graduates. For the past 20 years male students have faced an increasingly uphill battle in accessing quality education. I suggest avoiding this example if you're trying to highlight bias against women, because this is one area where bias works in their favor.
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This thread has been great. Thank you, Actual Ethan, for joining and clearing things up.
To the people who thought I was making this up: I am insulted by your allegations! I don't lie on the blog - if you look at the other fictional tales/characters I've used, you will see I always labeled them as such.
As for the similar writing style: you are right, the man does bust some fine sentences, which is of course why I found his stuff to be worth sharing. It was survivorship bias - I get hundreds of reader stories, but most aren't entertaining like this story was so they tend to go into the "maybe share this great story later" folder.
He practices "Outrageous optimism", and when you do that in your real life, it leaks out into your writing.
Privilege, as I always say, is real but it doesn't matter for the mission of this blog. It is specifically targeted at high-earners, whether privileged or not, as a part of a mission to slow the pace at which they (we) destroy the Earth, and get us interested in something else besides consumption. The principles apply just as well or better with real hardship, but I don't often write from that perspective because there is still plenty of work left to do on Mission #1.
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Crikey, the conspiracy runs deeper than we thought! Now they've concocted an MMM impersonator to weigh in on this thread in a feeble attempt to buttress the nonexistence of a conspiracy! :)
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It's infuriating when white men say, heh heh where's this white privilege and how can I get some? The fact that you are unaware of it is indicative of the fact that you have it. Do you fear walking your safe neighborhood at night because someone might assault you based solely on your gender? Are you targeted by police disproportionately because of your skin color? No. You have so many benefits that many others do not have. You're more likely to be hired and paid better, more likely to be accepted to college, and others. Just stop with that attitude.
While I appreciate windawake's attempts to highlight inequality in the world, I think her specific examples here are probably not the best ones available.
I fear walking in lots of neighborhoods at night. Sometimes because of my gender (men are disproportionately the victims of physical violence) and sometime because of my skin color (I have only been beaten to a bloody pulp once in my life, and it was because I was a white kid in a black space). Yes, violence against women is a terrible problem and a blight on our civilization. It's just less prevalent than violence against men.
Everyone fears walking in a bad neighborhood at night. Don't confuse rational evaluation of a safety hazard with targeted race or gender discrimination.
I agree with the assessment of police bias. I've never encountered a police officer who wanted to harm me, as long as I was polite and compliant. Some of my less polite and less compliant friends, of all skin colors, have been less "fortunate" in their police encounters. I'm sure there are some cops who are inadvertently racist, but I'm also pretty sure that ALL cops are deliberately aggressive with people who have bad attitudes. I'm not discounting race as a factor in police treatment, I just don't think it's number one on the list of determinative factors.
I also agree that as a white male I am more likely to be hired for most jobs. Not my particular job, not even my category of job, but across the economy I think white people and male people both receive some degree of subconscious preferential treatment in hiring decision. Some jobs are harder for men to get (primary schoolteachers, for example) and some jobs are harder for white people to get (explicit racial minority hiring quotas still exist in some places) but on the whole employment bias favors men, because hiring managers of both genders still perceive men as more qualified than equivalent female candidates. You can hardly fault the applicants for this, though.
I disagree that men are more likely to be accepted to college. Women make up the majority of college applicants, a larger majority of college students, and an even larger majority of college graduates. For the past 20 years male students have faced an increasingly uphill battle in accessing quality education. I suggest avoiding this example if you're trying to highlight bias against women, because this is one area where bias works in their favor.
Hey sol,
Yeah I kinda pulled those examples out of my ass because I'm too busy today to look up stats.
I would argue that the fear most women and LGBT people have walking at night is different and more pervasive than what men may experience. Anytime I'm walking home, even in my safe neighborhood, I clutch my keys in my fist so they jut out like I'm Wolverine. Sure, all people experience fear and danger in certain situations. In this particular case, it's about fear when there shouldn't be fear because of one's gender or sexual orientation.
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Do other areas of the world have the same types of discussions? Are people wringing their hands in Africa about black privilege? The Chinese about Chinese privilege? Serious question.
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Do other areas of the world have the same types of discussions? Are people wringing their hands in Africa about black privilege? The Chinese about Chinese privilege? Serious question.
Well frankly in Africa is a huge place, attempting to paint it in one way is kind of stupid, they suffer from different socioeconomic cultural concerns depending on the country/region but I imagine a similar concept happens in many places. I'm quite certain white privilege exists in South Africa. If the overall concept of privilege can be described as having an advantage socioeconomically due to... reasons, then yes it can be said it exists elsewhere, whether that is being discussed is a different matter. I imagine you'd have to immerse yourself a bit more in those cultures in order to answer that.
Quick google check though shows that Singapore has problems with privilege. (https://medium.com/chinese-privilege/to-my-dear-fellow-singapore-chinese-shut-up-when-a-minority-is-talking-about-race-48e00d7c7073)
So yes probably other places have these discussions too. I think what's more important is to still focus on the self and improve your situation no matter where you are on the start line.
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Do other areas of the world have the same types of discussions? Are people wringing their hands in Africa about black privilege? The Chinese about Chinese privilege? Serious question.
Yes. Africa is the most racist place I've ever been.
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Do other areas of the world have the same types of discussions? Are people wringing their hands in Africa about black privilege? The Chinese about Chinese privilege? Serious question.
I'd guess, from limited experience, that every culture and nation has its own ideas about 'privilege' and perception of social injustice. For instance, in the U.A.E., an American would perceive there to be an issue in how locals treat immigrant labor (construction workers, gardeners, nannys, etc.), but it is not perceived as an 'issue' by the locals. On the flip side, Norway is very egalitarian, but perceptions of social and moral injustices dominate their headlines. I'm sure China and countries in Africa have their 'quirks', but I haven't spent as much time there to get to know the cultures.
So I guess, as a quick answer, 'yes', most nations also have their versions of 'privilege', but some are more and some are less concerned or progressive about dealing with it.
As to relevance to MMM, you'd definitely be screwed trying to implement FIRE starting as a Pakastani taxi driver who moved to the U.A.E. because it afforded a better life for his family back home, and certainly have an easier time if you are born in Norway. Kinda depressing, but it's worth being aware of, just in case you are ever feeling like busting out your own 'FIRE is too hard' pity party :)
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MMM is quick to point out that the Medium article is very complainypants, but that really rubs me the wrong way. I think the Medium article touches on (briefly) a very important, very relevant criticism of the MMM philosophy, which is that all of us who retire early or are on track to are RIDICULOUSLY PRIVILEGED.
I don't know why people don't believe there is some level of privilege/luck involved to early retiring. I fully admit that I have been incredibly blessed, first by my parents being competent/present, having a nuclear family growing up, having parents who parent me and actually attempt to raise me, and being intelligent.
Any of us here are capable of a basic level of self control with money that the majority of the population doesn't have (privilege? learned character quality? all a matter of perspective) and in general we have decent incomes/careers.
Most here as individuals make more than the median income of $51k/year.
It's not badass to save 40% of your income if you make 100k a year. It's badass if you save 40% of your income if you make $30k/year and support a family. That latter category is the one which is missing the "privilege" that the former has.
MMM's audience has never been the latter category, though, it's people who make that 100k a year and manage to save -5% a year.
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... just to see my tax dollars go to droning people in Syria or giving bombs and guns to warlords in Africa...basically 99% of what our taxes are spent on I disagree with outright or have major qualms with the implementation of it. ...
The problem with rants is that grammatical precision is often lost and therefore one's meaning is often unclear.
First of all, 99% of our tax money does NOT go to bombing people in Syria and guns to warlords in Africa (or anywhere else, or even preparing to do so 'just in case'). That is a matter of pure fact that a few minutes of actual research could prove to any reasonably open mind.
Social services and military defense comprise the overwhelming bulk of our federal expenditures. Education and social services comprise the bulk of our state and local tax expenditures.
If you're complaint is that the government wastes a lot of money in meeting those needs, you would be right.
I would ask you what you have personally done about it in a get-off-your-ass and do the work sort of way. Have you volunteered to be on any city, county or state commissions or boards of trustees? There are host of such positions available and in need of volunteers to do them. They are a real way in which a regular citizen can have a much bigger voice in their government than you would ever believe. Your local government website probably has a listing of them.
For example, I've served on an advisory committee to the mass transit authority in my city. We regular citizens advised the transit authority and the city government as to what its priorities should be in the mass transit realm and our recommendations were largely followed.
As another example, I served on the board of directors for my county's department of mental health. This was more than an advisory position. All departmental employees were county employees except for the head of the agency. The head of the agency worked at the pleasure of the board of directors. In other words, if the head of the agency doesn't do what the board of directors thinks should be done, that person could be out of a job pronto. Let me tell you, that sort of arrangement provides proper motivation to listen to the regular citizens on the board.
And how did I get on said committees or boards? I showed up at their meetings, listened and took notes. I filled out the application and sent it in. No one knew who I was ahead of time, I'm not part of the old boy's club, etc.
No plan will work for all people in all circumstances. To think otherwise is to be foolish in the extreme. MMM gives useful, pragmatic, workable advice that will help darn near anyone improve their situation. Will everyone end up FI at age 35? No. Will everyone end up FI at age 45? No. Will everyone end up better off by following his advice? No. But damn near everyone will. And you can take that to the bank.
So, instead of revving up the whining engine about those it won't help, why don't we focus on getting those that will be helped this kind of good advice and expect them to follow it? They are bound to end up better off than simply listening to you whine excuses for them.
Then, with those who can help themselves no longer needing as much help to get ahead, we can focus our resources on helping those for which MMM's advice truly won't help. That would be people with something more serious than a severe case of whiner's brain.
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This thread has been great. Thank you, Actual Ethan, for joining and clearing things up.
To the people who thought I was making this up: I am insulted by your allegations! I don't lie on the blog - if you look at the other fictional tales/characters I've used, you will see I always labeled them as such.
As for the similar writing style: you are right, the man does bust some fine sentences, which is of course why I found his stuff to be worth sharing. It was survivorship bias - I get hundreds of reader stories, but most aren't entertaining like this story was so they tend to go into the "maybe share this great story later" folder.
He practices "Outrageous optimism", and when you do that in your real life, it leaks out into your writing.
Privilege, as I always say, is real but it doesn't matter for the mission of this blog. It is specifically targeted at high-earners, whether privileged or not, as a part of a mission to slow the pace at which they (we) destroy the Earth, and get us interested in something else besides consumption. The principles apply just as well or better with real hardship, but I don't often write from that perspective because there is still plenty of work left to do on Mission #1.
Well, hats off to Ethan! I have a little experience trying to emulate particular writing styles in book editing, for flow, and it's damn hard to do! He could make some use of that skill.
And, BTW, I met MMM once and he didn't seem much like a bot. Unless they're making them beer-fueled these days :)
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It's infuriating when white men say, heh heh where's this white privilege and how can I get some? The fact that you are unaware of it is indicative of the fact that you have it. Do you fear walking your safe neighborhood at night because someone might assault you based solely on your gender? Are you targeted by police disproportionately because of your skin color? No. You have so many benefits that many others do not have. You're more likely to be hired and paid better, more likely to be accepted to college, and others. Just stop with that attitude.
While I appreciate windawake's attempts to highlight inequality in the world, I think her specific examples here are probably not the best ones available.
I fear walking in lots of neighborhoods at night. Sometimes because of my gender (men are disproportionately the victims of physical violence) and sometime because of my skin color (I have only been beaten to a bloody pulp once in my life, and it was because I was a white kid in a black space). Yes, violence against women is a terrible problem and a blight on our civilization. It's just less prevalent than violence against men.
I've heard this before from the men's right's people. But isn't that statistic higher because men get into certain situations more than women? I mean like fighting with each other. And also, because a lot of that violence happens in prison and there are more men locked up than women? I'm actually asking because I'm not sure and curious about it.
I agree with the assessment of police bias. I've never encountered a police officer who wanted to harm me, as long as I was polite and compliant. Some of my less polite and less compliant friends, of all skin colors, have been less "fortunate" in their police encounters. I'm sure there are some cops who are inadvertently racist, but I'm also pretty sure that ALL cops are deliberately aggressive with people who have bad attitudes. I'm not discounting race as a factor in police treatment, I just don't think it's number one on the list of determinative factors.
A friend and I jumped a turnstyle at an NYC subway once just because we were in a hurry. A cop saw us and made us go back and miss our train, but that was it. I couldn't help thinking if we hadn't been white (male/female) the response would have been different. Here in Seattle we've had so many cases of profiling lately. It's come out that certain cops in particular have a record of this (one was suspended in the case against the black man who used a golf club as a cane - maybe you've heard of that case?)
I also agree that as a white male I am more likely to be hired for most jobs. Not my particular job, not even my category of job, but across the economy I think white people and male people both receive some degree of subconscious preferential treatment in hiring decision. Some jobs are harder for men to get (primary schoolteachers, for example) and some jobs are harder for white people to get (explicit racial minority hiring quotas still exist in some places) but on the whole employment bias favors men, because hiring managers of both genders still perceive men as more qualified than equivalent female candidates. You can hardly fault the applicants for this, though.
Totally agree that some jobs are more likely to hire one men and others women (but mostly men). However, the primary school teacher example may not be right. Because there aren't many male teachers schools actually want more. I taught in Seattle schools briefly and they were always saying they wished they had more male teachers. Same with child therapists and social workers. Those are currently female-dominated fields so any man walking in the door gets put at the top of the list. BTW, most principals, superintendents and district administrators are male even though most teachers are female (and in theory they draw from the educator pool for those jobs). I would say there are jobs where more women are hired than men but they don't tend to be the high level jobs.
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If you're complaint is that the government wastes a lot of money in meeting those needs, you would be right.
I would ask you what you have personally done about it in a get-off-your-ass and do the work sort of way. Have you volunteered to be on any city, county or state commissions or boards of trustees? There are host of such positions available and in need of volunteers to do them. They are a real way in which a regular citizen can have a much bigger voice in their government than you would ever believe. Your local government website probably has a listing of them.
For example, I've served on an advisory committee to the mass transit authority in my city. We regular citizens advised the transit authority and the city government as to what its priorities should be in the mass transit realm and our recommendations were largely followed.
As another example, I served on the board of directors for my county's department of mental health. This was more than an advisory position. All departmental employees were county employees except for the head of the agency. The head of the agency worked at the pleasure of the board of directors. In other words, if the head of the agency doesn't do what the board of directors thinks should be done, that person could be out of a job pronto. Let me tell you, that sort of arrangement provides proper motivation to listen to the regular citizens on the board.
And how did I get on said committees or boards? I showed up at their meetings, listened and took notes. I filled out the application and sent it in. No one knew who I was ahead of time, I'm not part of the old boy's club, etc.
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately too many people (myself included) find complaining about the state of things is easier than spending the time and energy figuring how how to get involved and then doing it.
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If you're complaint is that the government wastes a lot of money in meeting those needs, you would be right.
I would ask you what you have personally done about it in a get-off-your-ass and do the work sort of way. Have you volunteered to be on any city, county or state commissions or boards of trustees? There are host of such positions available and in need of volunteers to do them. They are a real way in which a regular citizen can have a much bigger voice in their government than you would ever believe. Your local government website probably has a listing of them.
For example, I've served on an advisory committee to the mass transit authority in my city. We regular citizens advised the transit authority and the city government as to what its priorities should be in the mass transit realm and our recommendations were largely followed.
As another example, I served on the board of directors for my county's department of mental health. This was more than an advisory position. All departmental employees were county employees except for the head of the agency. The head of the agency worked at the pleasure of the board of directors. In other words, if the head of the agency doesn't do what the board of directors thinks should be done, that person could be out of a job pronto. Let me tell you, that sort of arrangement provides proper motivation to listen to the regular citizens on the board.
And how did I get on said committees or boards? I showed up at their meetings, listened and took notes. I filled out the application and sent it in. No one knew who I was ahead of time, I'm not part of the old boy's club, etc.
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately too many people (myself included) find complaining about the state of things is easier than spending the time and energy figuring how how to get involved and then doing it.
Thus, as these threads eventually do, it circles back to the main point of the mustache philosophy - building a position of strength. You can get caught up in the details, mired in minutia, pick apart individual posts and argument for entertainment sake...
...but if you have read enough of MMM's posts and spend time giving and receiving in the community, you come to realize that irregardless of the buzz words you use, the whole thing comes down to building up and approaching life from a position of strength - whatever that may be for you. Identifying what is important to you and optimizing your life to make it the best it can possibly be.
There are many different ways to do this: increasing income, building social networks, gaining skills, limiting your impact on the earth, GETTING INVOLVED in social issues or working to right injustices. These are things ANYONE can do. Not everyone call do all of them, but everyone can do something.
THAT, ladies and gents is the take home message. Sure we can all sit behind out computers and complain, debate and dissect the different ways of doing it, but ACTION speaks louder then any words on a screen.
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While I feel bad for the underprivaleged, I have a couple questions for the OP. How many privaleged white males are in america? Maybe 200,000,000; I'm not really sure but I think that's kind of close. Ok, now, how many early retirees? Rough guess, depending on your definition, maybe 1,000-20,000. I think the greater point of the article, and the point I'm trying to make, is people need to stop making excuses and start making shit happen.
There are 320?? million people in the US, so assuming half are men, that is 160 million. 65% are white, which is around 100 million. So you're off by about 100 million. And, of course that assumes that 100% of white males are "privileged".
As to 1,000 - 20,000 early retirees? Maybe there are...in one medium sized city.
The numbers, which were all guesswork, are largely irrelevant. The greater point is we all need to make the most of whatever opportunities we have. Privaleged or or not.
However, if you think there are 20k early retirees in a medium sized city, you are mistaken. There might be 20K early retiree candidates in this entire movement. Or 200k if you are crazy optimistic. But the numbers are largely irrelevant and purely speculative.
Either way, it doesnkt change the argument. Stay positive. Do the best with what you have. Try to create more. Don't make excuses.
Population (319mil) x 49% male x 63% white x 63% between 18 and 65 (i.e. eligible for ER) = apprxoximately 62mil population set.
Approximately 18% of population has net worth of $500k+ (typically bottom end of FIRE but is somewhat false as it includes home equity) so that means that there are potentially 11MM FIREd white guys.
A higher standard, 5% of population has $1mil+ (also including home equity) translating to 3.1MM potentially FIREd white guys.
Even more realistic is that probably less than 5% of the the $1mil people are MMM/FIRE oriented then that leaves 155,000 potentially more realistically FIREd white guys.
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And re: your comic lesson -- one of my best friends when I was growing up was actually the "Paula" to my "Richard." She grew up in a shack with her unemployed dad. No running water. She had a really hard time, and we tried to help her/them as much as we could. My mom still hires her dad (now in his 60s) to mow her lawn. But she made it out of poverty. It does happen. Maybe not always or even not often, but it happens. And part of that happening is because people like MMM and many of us on these forums are sharing our knowledge about how to make financial and other choices that will set a person up for success rather than failure. Choices like not buying your dream car, but instead buying one that will get you from point A to point B for the next 5 years or so at a reasonably monthly cost. Choices like waiting until you have generated a bit of side income to splurge on those high end speakers, and then finding ways to bring the price down (buying used, buying floor models, etc). CHoices like working your way through school or learning how to apply (successfully) for scholarships and grants.
And maybe, just maybe, these "challenges" provided the motivation and work ethic to pull herself up.....some people want a crutch for their burdens, others use it as a lever to pry open the doors of opportunity.
Privilege does make opening the door easier though, and in some cases the door is wide open, I see it all the time with the hiring of clients kids and whatnot....but once you are in willingness to learn and work hard trump privilege the rest of the way....at the end of the day an employer only cares about productivity/bottom line...they don't care where you come from.....you still have to make it once you are in the door.
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I can see both sides of the argument here. First of all, the majority of MMM's readership are people making $100k or more per year. If you are making $100k or more (like my family), then it's insanely easy to FIRE. All it takes is living like someone making $30k or less per year and slumming it. The average person makes nowhere near $100k per year and it's not because they are worthless. It's because there are very few $100k jobs and most of those are possessed by the children of other people who made $100k. That's just how reality works.
On the other hand, if you are dealt a shitty hand, you still have to play it and that's where "complainypants" stuff comes into play. I was born into poverty and for a long time I used that as an excuse not to improve my life. Eventually, I decided that I didn't want my life to be shitty anymore, so I kissed a lot of ass and worked really hard (mostly in that order) to get where I am today in life. I am extremely privileged to have been born with above average intelligence and an aptitude for a few marketable skills. Not everybody has my talents and intelligence, but you still have to do what is necessary with what you have. And that's this discussion in a nutshell.
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I've gotta say this guy Ethan's story has been among my favorite posts so far. I found it pretty invigorating to read, and very encouraging as a late starter to Mustachianism myself. (Although I didn't eff up quite as colossally as he did; I was a terribly spoiled, clueless, and drifting failure-to-launcher until the age of 25 when I finally forced myself outta the parents' nest by joining the Army, and even then didn't start getting into a serious rate of savings for another ten years.)
I was never quite in as much debt as he was, which had a lot to do with luck and privilege, but I had a terrible mindless-shopping-for-fun habit which made saving for any big ticket item I would've liked (such as adventure vacations, home upgrades, and last but not least the dream of financial freedom) exceedingly difficult and seemingly impossible even with a large salary... that is until I discovered this blog and a whole new world of self-made possibilities was unveiled to me.
So Ethan's story is brilliant for folks like me who are swimming in a world of wealth and privilege and simply need to pull our heads out of our a$$#s and learn how to work toward financial freedom instead of away from it.
But I think even many less lucky folks can take a lesson from it too - that even if your starting point is far behind a more privileged starting line, there's a good chance that there is still plenty you can do to improve your own situation.
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Why should I read your thoughts if you weren't wiling to do likewise?
Because they were entertainingly racist? And the anecdotes were obviously fabricated? And some people just need to be shouted down?
Nah man it's totally likely that a black guy walked into the financial aid office and demanded $22k in unmarked bills and they just gave it to him, no questions asked, because that's what life is like for black Americans. Why doubt that?
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The “privilege” debate always rubs me the wrong way.
It is disrespectful to the supposed recipient of the privilege. It implies that their hard work, positive attitude and good choices meant nothing and the only reason they achieved what they did is because of who they are. Think of this scenario, Michael Jordan (now retired for how long?) plays a high ranked but mostly unknown semi pro basketball player in a one on one match. No matter how much he trains and practices to get back in shape, everyone will say “of course he won, he’s Michael Jordan”. Hard work+positive attitude=better than luck. Hard work+positive attitude+luck=life is a breeze.
It is disrespectful to the people who aren’t recipients of the privilege. It implies that only a select few of non-white males can achieve success. So black people can’t be successful through hard work and smart living? Women can’t? Hispanics? How do you explain people like Ben Carson? Colin Powell? Thomas Sowell? Fucking Frederick Douglas started out his life as PROPERTY!!! There is no situation that makes success more difficult than that.
It encourages people to accept bad situations, rather than work to change them. If you can’t succeed with “privilege”, then why try? What’s the point of improving your situation if the system is rigged against you? Accepting your bad situation traps you in poverty and struggle much more than “privilege” ever will.
It doesn’t represent the reality of the problem or the world. I don’t believe that Michael792’s story happened as he described it, but there are a lot of resources that are only available to non-white males, such as scholarships and financial aid. Women are now attending and graduating college more than men are, as well as preferred for a variety of growing sectors: nursing, physicians assistants, nurses assistants, childcare, etc. Minorities are given preferential hiring in almost every government job and contract, some of the most stable and lucrative jobs around. Minority communities also tend to be more closely knit than white communities, offering opportunities for networking and support. Minority communities are also more often the target of non-profit support.
Do these things offset the problems faced by minority communities? Clearly not. However, perhaps the debate should be about how we encourage people to embrace better choices and take advantage of every opportunity, rather than how people only succeed if the system has labeled them a preferred class. MMM is clearly on the right side of this debate. As MMM and the rest of us get more and more people on board, creating their own success and not worrying about “privilege”, their success will give their families access to “privilege” and work towards eliminating any “privilege”.
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Personally, I cannot see any reason why an early retiree with a $25k annual budget should be arsed to fabricate correspondence to bump up his readership. So either Pete is a total fake, or I'll just continue assuming that he's legit and ignore authorial tone.
The original article IS entitled and whiny. He deserves to be slapped on the face for having the gall to post it. I'm sitting here at the age of 37 with really no tangible assets and I have made a plan to retire before 50, and if it goes well before that. If it doesn't go to plan, I'll retire later - maybe 55, maybe 60. Who knows, right? Point is, it's not rocket science. The only variable is what percentage of income you can manage to live on, which determines your endpoint.
If you don't WANT to retire early because you want a nice car and a commute from the suburbs and your daily Starbucks, don't blame MMM for misleading you. And for goodness sake, a newly minted 22 year old college grad with $25k of student loans and a $33k starting salary isn't going to stay that way for very long if they have some ambition and the ability to cut down on expenses to repay the loan. They've still got 40 years of working life ahead of them in which to raise their income, repay their debts, and make a plan to FIRE. To me it just sounds like the writer of the article is quite content scraping by till 65.
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As to relevance to MMM, you'd definitely be screwed trying to implement FIRE starting as a Pakastani taxi driver who moved to the U.A.E. because it afforded a better life for his family back home, and certainly have an easier time if you are born in Norway. Kinda depressing, but it's worth being aware of, just in case you are ever feeling like busting out your own 'FIRE is too hard' pity party :)
But here's the important point: if I am a Pakistani taxi driver in the UAE, I can't become a Norwegian by wishing. An American observer can look at the Pakistani and the Norwegian and say "gal #2 has a much easier path than guy #1", and they're right, but that's not really actionable advice for guy #1.
One half of this argument is sociology - whether privilege is real, and how we should treat or think about others. To me the concept of privilege is important here, and the idea of compassion even more so. But the other half of this is how we should conduct our lives. No matter how much privilege you've got, whether it's a whole lot or none, the way up is hard work (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/27/get-rich-with-good-old-fashioned-hard-work/) and acknowledging you suck (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/07/10/to-achieve-greatness-you-must-first-acknowledge-that-you-suck/) (even if you're a Pakistani taxi driver in the UAE, or worse (http://www.forbes.com/sites/katiasavchuk/2015/03/02/the-face-of-frances-future/)). Hard work and saving your pennies is all that can ever get you to riches, and wishing you were Norwegian, or taller, or white, or straight does no good. Treat others compassionately, especially if they know more struggle than you do, but be a hardass on your expectations to yourself and treat your background as outside of your locus of control (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/07/how-big-is-your-circle-of-control/). Minimizing your attention to things outside the circle of control is a productive habit when it comes to achieving FIRE, but the other side of the coin may disregarding privilege when thinking about others.
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Minimizing your attention to things outside the circle of control is a productive habit when it comes to achieving FIRE, but the other side of the coin may disregarding privilege when thinking about others.
I am sympathetic with many of the ideas you linked to, they generally work well if you an American, but the conclusion to 'disregard privilege when thinking about others' has become a sore spot for Mustachianism. Basically, it puts YOU as the only important thing in this world and OTHERS that might need some of that excess you gained (perhaps through privilege, even if you're not aware of it) as 'outside your control'.
If we don't fully acknowledge that privilege exists, and that hard work isn't going to compensate for that in many cases, then you are ignoring the issue. How does that help anyone?
As to what to do about it? Well, being grateful that you are closing in on FI in your youth and have a job that is easier and pays better than many is a start. From there, maybe you work past ER (at something that you enjoy, or using FI to downshift to a lower paid job that helps others more) and or/give to charity... But this flies in the face of being able to claim that you retired in your 30's (or 20's), so nobody around here wants to hear that.
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Minimizing your attention to things outside the circle of control is a productive habit when it comes to achieving FIRE, but the other side of the coin may disregarding privilege when thinking about others.
I am sympathetic with many of the ideas you linked to, they generally work well if you an American, but the conclusion to 'disregard privilege when thinking about others' has become a sore spot for Mustachianism. Basically, it puts YOU as the only important thing in this world and OTHERS that might need some of that excess you gained (perhaps through privilege, even if you're not aware of it) as 'outside your control'.
If we don't fully acknowledge that privilege exists, and that hard work isn't going to compensate for that in many cases, then you are ignoring the issue. How does that help anyone?
As to what to do about it? Well, being grateful that you are closing in on FI in your youth and have a job that is easier and pays better than many is a start. From there, maybe you work past ER (at something that you enjoy, or using FI to downshift to a lower paid job that helps others more) and or/give to charity... But this flies in the face of being able to claim that you retired in your 30's (or 20's), so nobody around here wants to hear that.
I think that's part of the disconnect. FIRE != doing nothing charitable or not working forever. You can still do those things in order to be beneficial to others around you who may not have had the same opportunities that you have while still succeeding in your own goals.
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I am sympathetic with many of the ideas you linked to, they generally work well if you an American,
I think the point of the ideas is that they generally work well whether or not you're an American. Could you elaborate on why they won't work for me when I move to the UK in two months so I can totally reinvent my life plan?
but the conclusion to 'disregard privilege when thinking about others' has become a sore spot for Mustachianism. Basically, it puts YOU as the only important thing in this world and OTHERS that might need some of that excess you gained (perhaps through privilege, even if you're not aware of it) as 'outside your control'.
If we don't fully acknowledge that privilege exists, and that hard work isn't going to compensate for that in many cases, then you are ignoring the issue. How does that help anyone?
I may not have written that clearly. I wasn't trying to say "and you should also ignore privilege when thinking of others", I was trying to say "the internal locus of control is a productive mindset but can lead to an unfortunate blind spot that we should all make sure to watch out for."
As to what to do about it? Well, being grateful that you are closing in on FI in your youth and have a job that is easier and pays better than many is a start. From there, maybe you work past ER (at something that you enjoy, or using FI to downshift to a lower paid job that helps others more) and or/give to charity... But this flies in the face of being able to claim that you retired in your 30's (or 20's), so nobody around here wants to hear that.
That's not a very charitable view of the mustachians to hold after spending a year and a half here and contributing hundreds of posts of discussion. From the blog's early days (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/11/getting-started-2-the-higher-cause/), to the forum's early days (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/your-mustache-might-be-evil), to discussions ongoing (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/'one-more-year'-strikes-the-rich-the-hardest) today (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/charity-and-omy-syndrome), getting rich by standing on the heads of others just isn't what it's about. If you're not happy with the amount of attention paid to the topic, don't knock the community. Start a thread!
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It's infuriating when white men say, heh heh where's this white privilege and how can I get some? The fact that you are unaware of it is indicative of the fact that you have it. Do you fear walking your safe neighborhood at night because someone might assault you based solely on your gender? Are you targeted by police disproportionately because of your skin color? No. You have so many benefits that many others do not have. You're more likely to be hired and paid better, more likely to be accepted to college, and others. Just stop with that attitude.
Privilege doesn't mean you're bad or that you didn't work hard for what you have. It just means that a person with similar qualifications would have to work much harder if they were of a minority group.
There's a reason one of the introductory terms is "the invisible knapsack." It's easy to see from the outside, and very hard to see from the inside. Speaking as someone who's benefited enormously from white privilege, from the very obvious (my Virginia-born mother is well-off because her father was well-off because his father was well-off because: slavery) to the very subtle (why did my last employer pay me 20% more than my Indian colleagues with the same basic qualifications? Maybe she just liked me more. ... which is likely because I seemed "more like our kind of people." Ahem).
But it takes paying a lot of attention to see that kind of thing. It would be very easy to say "my family was well-off because they worked hard (because they did), I earned more because I work hard (because I ... sort of do), I was accepted for this apartment because I seem like a good bet (maybe), I don't get followed around stores because I dress well (not hardly), the police have never shot me because I'm not a threat (why are so many unarmed black people "a threat"? Hundreds every year?). That's a very comfortable place to be: it's all because I'm great, and never because I get handouts that aren't clearly identified as handouts.
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Oh good Lord. Life isn't fair. You don't get to choose whether you're white, black, tall, handsome, ugly, pretty, fat, thin, smart, dumb, handicapped, or a million other things. Everyone denounces overt racism but that isn't enough for the "tsk tsk" crowd, there's always something to tsk-tsk as long as life isn't 100% completely fair. This whole discussion is the epitome of complainypantsness. Privilege exists everywhere human beings exist, all over the world.
I agree with the people who said, "well what are you doing about it, besides tsk-tsking the rest of us?" because it gets to the heart of the matter. Some people just want to scold other people. It's not about life not being fair, it's about your compulsion to tsk-tsk. If we all woke up tomorrow and privilege was eradicated, the tsk-tskers would embark upon a new campaign. They would say it's not fair that some people are smarter than others, or better-looking, or more athletic. They would try to shame us into genetically-engineering people to be identical.
It's never-ending with these people. They're never going to be satisfied. You can write a blog post extolling a human virtue - hard work - that's been considered a human virtue since time immemorial, and these people will miss the point, ignore your inspirational message, and tsk-tsk you for life not being 100% fair. They're like the ethical equivalent of grammar nazis.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/25285915.jpg)
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Oh good Lord. Life isn't fair. You don't get to choose whether you're white, black, tall, handsome, ugly, pretty, fat, thin, smart, dumb, handicapped, or a million other things. Everyone denounces overt racism but that isn't enough for the "tsk tsk" crowd, there's always something to tsk-tsk as long as life isn't 100% completely fair. This whole discussion is the epitome of complainypantsness. Privilege exists everywhere human beings exist, all over the world.
I agree with the people who said, "well what are you doing about it, besides tsk-tsking the rest of us?" because it gets to the heart of the matter. Some people just want to scold other people. It's not about life not being fair, it's about your compulsion to tsk-tsk. If we all woke up tomorrow and privilege was eradicated, the tsk-tskers would embark upon a new campaign. They would say it's not fair that some people are smarter than others, or better-looking, or more athletic. They would try to shame us into genetically-engineering people to be identical.
It's never-ending with these people. They're never going to be satisfied. You can write a blog post extolling a human virtue - hard work - that's been considered a human virtue since time immemorial, and these people will miss the point, ignore your inspirational message, and tsk-tsk you for life not being 100% fair. They're like the ethical equivalent of grammar nazis.
Consider changing your username.
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Why do you assume that this person is white and has not been victimized in other ways?
Are you implying that if the person was a minority that they wouldn't be capable of succeeding?
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^^+1
Not having read the whole thread here (sorry), my gut reaction to reading that blog post was the same as the OP's.
And I loved the cartoon. So so very true. I get to see the Richards and Paulas of the world right at the halfway point in that cartoon, in the differences at that point are really profound even if they are both at the same exact university. The way the cartoon frame scenes merge at the end is absolutely brilliant.
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It's never-ending with these people.
They are talking about the tsk-tskers ...
How do you determine privilege anyway?
African American Male - grows up in upper class family, attends and graduates college with honors (parents pay for college)
Caucasian Male - grows up in poverty, struggles to get ahead and pays his way through college with honors.
Who has the privilege in that example? Both enter the workforce. The recruiter doesn't know their history. Who is going to get the job? Because he was raised in a affluent household, the guy in the first example is wearing an expensive suit and is well put together. Likewise, the guy in example two doesn't have enough money to buy a proper suit so he's not very well put together. Who is going to get the job? Maybe guy #2 is very handsome and well spoken and guy #1 is not .. who is going to get the job?
I wouldn't care if you were purple or green .. blind or sighted .. If i'm going to be paying you for a job I want the most qualified person.
Anyway .. I chimed in earlier on this thread ... the entire point of MMM's BLOG post, as with most of his posts, is about attitude .. about making the best with the circumstances and keeping a productive attitude .. about having a spirit of optimism. I grew up the youngest of five kids and the best compliment my Dad ever gave me .. I actually learned through my mother, is that he said he never had to worry about me or my future. I was resourceful and if there was something in life I wanted I set out to get it. One of my brothers, on the other hand is a total complainypants, and sits around moping about his life .. boo hoo hoo .. not very productive and a constant source of worry for my parents.
Nobody cares more about you than you .. only you can make it happen ...
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It's never-ending with these people. They're never going to be satisfied. You can write a blog post extolling a human virtue - hard work - that's been considered a human virtue since time immemorial, and these people will miss the point, ignore your inspirational message, and tsk-tsk you for life not being 100% fair. They're like the ethical equivalent of grammar nazis.
Okay, come on. There are systematic prejudices that prevent people from getting ahead in such an important and fundamental way that it is wrong to just say "hard work is all it takes." Yes, things are not fair. That is what I am calling out in this post. It's ridiculous to generalize and say that everyone can do it if they try hard enough. That's not true, and was what I found problematic about this post in the first place.
How do you determine privilege anyway?
African American Male - grows up in upper class family, attends and graduates college with honors (parents pay for college)
Caucasian Male - grows up in poverty, struggles to get ahead and pays his way through college with honors.
I don't know about your example above, there are so many factors that we cannot know. What I do know is that evidence has shown that just having a black sounding name can prevent you from getting asked to an interview in the first place, same goes for having a man's name vs. a woman's name. And sure, you can say that you would choose the most qualified person, but many of us have ingrained racism/sexism/classism/ablism and it takes significant work and soul-searching to start to recognize and eradicate it.
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It's never-ending with these people.
How do you determine privilege anyway?
African American Male - grows up in upper class family, attends and graduates college with honors (parents pay for college)
Caucasian Male - grows up in poverty, struggles to get ahead and pays his way through college with honors.
Who has the privilege in that example? Both enter the workforce. The recruiter doesn't know their history. Who is going to get the job?
This is clear: the first guy has wealth privilege and the second guy has white privilege. They both have male privilege.
Which privilege is more important depends on the circumstances.
Are they walking down a street after a crime has been committed? The white guy will be better off.
Are they standing next to each other at a job interview? Probably the black guy has the advantage.
But if his first name is "Jamal" or something obviously non-white, he may not have gotten that interview and a chance to show off his superior suit and ease with the English language.
But once they are both in that interview, they both have the privilege of not wondering if their ability to bear children or the fit of their skirts will be a factor in getting the job.
This is mostly beside the point, which is that everyone is wrong who thinks privilege is either
a) a way to vilify people who rolled lucky on the parental lottery or
b) an excuse for not making the best of your life
Anyway .. I chimed in earlier on this thread ... the entire point of MMM's BLOG post, as with most of his posts, is about attitude .. about making the best with the circumstances and keeping a productive attitude .. about having a spirit of optimism.
Yes. Yes, that is the point.
Toque.
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^^ this....+1000
Couldn't have said it better myself
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I don't know about your example above, there are so many factors that we cannot know.
Exactly .. there are so many factors .. factors meaning everybody has some handicap in life .. yes some are fortunate to have the entire package and they sail through life without any hardship. Things are handed to them on a silver platter. But for the majority we have to work with what we have to work with. Somebody is born with white privilege and a slow metabolism so they are white (yeah!) and fat (boo) .. they can whine about it .. let it hold them back in life or go to the gym and work out.
You make the choices.
I was really inspired by this last MMM blog post. I'm sure the majority of people who were dealt Ethan's cards would have folded and not even bothered to ante up.
"The best way to deal with any bad situation is to believe in yourself and have confidence that things will get better." - Yogi Berra
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The “privilege” debate always rubs me the wrong way.
It is disrespectful to the supposed recipient of the privilege. It implies that their hard work, positive attitude and good choices meant nothing and the only reason they achieved what they did is because of who they are. Think of this scenario, Michael Jordan (now retired for how long?) plays a high ranked but mostly unknown semi pro basketball player in a one on one match. No matter how much he trains and practices to get back in shape, everyone will say “of course he won, he’s Michael Jordan”. Hard work+positive attitude=better than luck. Hard work+positive attitude+luck=life is a breeze.
It is disrespectful to the people who aren’t recipients of the privilege. It implies that only a select few of non-white males can achieve success. So black people can’t be successful through hard work and smart living? Women can’t? Hispanics? How do you explain people like Ben Carson? Colin Powell? Thomas Sowell? Fucking Frederick Douglas started out his life as PROPERTY!!! There is no situation that makes success more difficult than that.
You're right its disrespectful. Its OK though, because in the last 10 years it has become acceptable to say terrible things about white men because clearly they get everything in their life from luck and kicking black / hispanic people, women and babies in their face (no one can explain how East Asians are so successful though, must be the boot of white males can't find them).
This kind of hate / self-hate will never end until all jobs have a ration system where jobs are given based on the % of population race/gender. I guess this is what everyone is looking forward to? Soviet Russia?
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So your point is that since some other people have said things you consider disrespectful, you are now above engaging with other people on their ideas and can refute their point through petty non sequiturs alone?
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Its OK though, because in the last 10 years it has become acceptable to say terrible things about white men because clearly they get everything in their life from luck and kicking black / hispanic people, women and babies in their face ...
I would like you to examine what you've written above.
Next, try to find a black, female or disabled person who has complained about not getting ahead because of white, male, able-bodied privilege, because she can't get into a building without a wheelchair ramp or because the other scientists in her lab keep mistaking her for the custodial staff.
See if you can tell the difference.
Then, look at the average people in each group and see if you can tell who is making out better when it comes to: poverty, getting a taxi, being called for a job interview, being ripped off by a mechanic, being innocent and getting harassed by police.
Finally, make the realization that your complaint is without merit and turn away from a life of Complainypants.
This kind of hate / self-hate will never end until all jobs have a ration system where jobs are given based on the % of population race/gender. I guess this is what everyone is looking forward to? Soviet Russia?
I hope it is clear now how crazy your hyperbole is here.
Toque.
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I don't even know why I'm going to wade deeper into this, but here I go :)
from: LiseE on June 12, 2015, 10:49:01 AM
Anyway .. I chimed in earlier on this thread ... the entire point of MMM's BLOG post, as with most of his posts, is about attitude .. about making the best with the circumstances and keeping a productive attitude .. about having a spirit of optimism.
Yes. Yes, that is the point.
Toque.
When people of privilege start all agreeing that the status quo and even the point of this blog is all to their liking, I am a bit put off. I've already admitted that I am more privileged than I even realized when I started my life, when I started to travel the world a bit, and even before I started to read this thread. Telling others to do the best they can with the cards they are dealt and stay optimistic is simply too smug for my liking. Sorry, but it just is. When you are talking about being FI for the rest of your life at an early age, and telling others that are struggling to get their feet under them that they just need to work harder and spend less, they will probably look at you like you are from a different planet. I get plenty of that already when I talk to 'privileged' people (which this blog is intended for). I can't even imagine how it would be received at a homeless shelter, or jail, or bankruptcy court.
There are people that need real help. If we think FIRE is hard, but we are close or have achieved it, why not spread the wealth a little. It won't kill you! Maybe it will delay your RV travel or homesteading plans, but holy crap will it ever be appreciated! There are plenty of lost causes out there, sure, but don't write people off as 'lazy, complainy, and face-punch worthy' just because they haven't been able to implement Mustachianism (and probably never could, because they are working so hard they don't have time and energy to move up Maslow's pyramid, let alone the skills or a mentor).
So, yeah, from now on when I read posts, I come wondering if this is all just about being privileged and just cutting back on silly consumption to reach FIRE earlier (which applies to maybe 30% of the First World workforce (which is but a small fraction of the global workforce)). And that's fine, that's good for the environment in a small way, but I'd hoped it would be something bigger. Something universal.
And the fact that people with privilege change the subject to 'the message is all about making the most of everything' (which of course applies to us people of privilege, so we of course agree) is like watching a beautiful racehorse put blinders on. Run straight ahead until you see the wall, and then veer left a little at full speed, because that's progress.
The message is 'make the most of privilege', plain and simple. And then, once you accept that, maybe you can start to balance that with helping others.
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Oh boy what a thread.
If you are privileged, make the most of it. Don't waste it. Recognize that you are privileged.
If you are not privileged, you'll have to work even harder. But that's about all you can do, because you didn't choose that circumstance. No one is going to give you anything. So make the most of what you can.
Either way, hard work and optimism is the way to go. But yes, the majority who "make it" will be privileged. It certainly helps. But it doesn't help the individual either way, they are or aren't, but still need to do what they can.
I'm ridiculously privileged and lucky. But I also had to do some work.
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Oh boy what a thread.
If you are privileged, make the most of it. Don't waste it. Recognize that you are privileged.
If you are not privileged, you'll have to work even harder. But that's about all you can do, because you didn't choose that circumstance. No one is going to give you anything. So make the most of what you can.
Either way, hard work and optimism is the way to go. But yes, the majority who "make it" will be privileged. It certainly helps. But it doesn't help the individual either way, they are or aren't, but still need to do what they can.
I'm ridiculously privileged and lucky. But I also had to do some work.
THIS.
I would add: If you ARE privileged, and you HAVE made the most of it, and you have NOT wasted it, and you have RECOGNIZED it, then by all means DO practice compassion and do your part to help those who need it.
There is NO SCENARIO where trying to be a better version of yourself will fail to benefit both you and (almost definitely) others. If you struggle against adversity, strive to overcome it, and then share your story. If you manage to inspire even a single person to BELIEVE, to STRIVE, then you have done well. If it is only the most marginal of victories, well, it counts regardless. For my part, it was MMM who inspired me. Not to strive to be average (which was, in all honesty, a pretty big accomplishment for me, after the massive level of fail I achieved in my earlier years), but to strive to do SOMETHING MORE.
I believe in compassion. I am not some bootstrap pushing conservative. Far from it. But compassion, to my view, is something to be applied to OTHERS (I am very familiar with Kristin Neff, in case anyone cares to cite her work). When it come to the SELF, nothing beats inspiration.
End rant.
Disclaimer: I posted this comment in spite of great reluctance, as I was told, by matchewed, to drop the mic. It is quite likely I should have listened. I do not have enough forum prowess to know if there was any kind of veiled meaning in his instruction, but I took it as a massive compliment.
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Oh boy what a thread.
If you are privileged, make the most of it. Don't waste it. Recognize that you are privileged.
If you are not privileged, you'll have to work even harder. But that's about all you can do, because you didn't choose that circumstance. No one is going to give you anything. So make the most of what you can.
Either way, hard work and optimism is the way to go. But yes, the majority who "make it" will be privileged. It certainly helps. But it doesn't help the individual either way, they are or aren't, but still need to do what they can.
I'm ridiculously privileged and lucky. But I also had to do some work.
THIS.
I would add: If you ARE privileged, and you HAVE made the most of it, and you have NOT wasted it, and you have RECOGNIZED it, then by all means DO practice compassion and do your part to help those who need it.
Great addition. Love it.
Thanks!
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We say we have compassion, but that is just a word, unless you read something like this (linked below) and realize that we need to do something in our off-line life -
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/life/article/A-homeless-man-rides-out-the-storm-6309862.php
Sorry to be melodramatic Mustachianism will be a powerful source of good, I'm still wondering where Pete will take it...
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We say we have compassion, but that is just a word, unless you read something like this (linked below) and realize that we need to do something in our off-line life -
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/life/article/A-homeless-man-rides-out-the-storm-6309862.php
Maybe that's a good heart tugger for others, but doesn't do it for me, when I think of the people who've never gotten multiple, multiple chances and continued to make self-destructive choices. Girls in third world countries not able to go to school just because of the circumstances they were born in make me more sad than him. I do feel for him, and wish him the best. I hope he makes the right decision, as they end the article with, but I don't feel as compelled to act on that versus the many other poor out there that--with a hand up--might have a lot better chance.
Sorry to be melodramatic Mustachianism will be a powerful source of good, I'm still wondering where Pete will take it...
Financial education is a great place to start. Environmentalism (resource reduction) another.
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If you are privileged, make the most of it. Don't waste it. Recognize that you are privileged.
If you are not privileged, you'll have to work even harder. But that's about all you can do, because you didn't choose that circumstance. No one is going to give you anything. So make the most of what you can.
Either way, hard work and optimism is the way to go. But yes, the majority who "make it" will be privileged. It certainly helps. But it doesn't help the individual either way, they are or aren't, but still need to do what they can.
I'm ridiculously privileged and lucky. But I also had to do some work.
I believe in helping people who can help themselves to help themselves. I believe in helping people who cannot take care of themselves do so.
I sure as hell do not believe in helping people who can help themselves but choose not to do so.
I'm helping the young man who lives next door to rental #1 get a yard business established. I'm overpaying him for services to prime the pump a bit. I 'll offer mentoring advice on an as-need and as-wanted basis.
I'm helping the son of one of my best friends. He's learning a lot of useful skills, making some money helping me out, and hopefully picking up some entrepreneurial thinking skills. Plus some self discipline.
I hire unemployed people I know to do tasks for me at above market rates as I can afford it. I've hired folks to deliver my car to another city so I could drive back instead of fly, dig French drains, organize my garage, etc. Why? Because they are good people trying hard and I can help. I pay taxes for social services to help those I don't know, plus taxes for schools, medical care, etc.
But help folks who choose to be ignorant, choose not to graduate from school, choose not to work, choose not to work hard, choose to fail? F them. They can starve for all I care.
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Okay.
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Ethan's story and the rebuttal that follows reminds me of every diet/blog about healthy living in the history of mankind. There are always outliers, always amazing stories of people who have beaten the odds and we are left to ponder whether that applies to us. Obviously the contestants on biggest loser work very hard, but is it healthy for other people to be exposed to that standard? In terms of dieting, a 60% savings rate is questionable, and pushing the envelope leads to long term psychological issues.
I think the same could be said about this blog post, which is cherry picked as not average results for mustachian concepts. How far away from average is it? Three standard deviations, four? I went through a completely different career reboot, and I did eventually succeed but on his scale I would have been running the organization in 5 years. There's nothing wrong with working your tail off, which I/Ethan did, but society does throw these outlandish expectations at us. It would be nice if mmm bucked that trend.
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Outliers provide better inspiration than averagers.
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I graduated with a degree that was largely useless where I settled. I did not have a decent paying job until I was over 30. Before that my wife and I (together) made about 1/3 the median family income - and we paid child support, too. That first decent job got me to just over median family income. My wife (10 years older than me) went to college in her early 40s and graduated with a phd 10 years later. She didn't have a decent paying job until she was over 50 years old.
During those years before she was gainfully employed I worked my ass off to get ahead. I studied on my own time. I practiced on my own time. I wrote professional articles and conference papers on my own time. I wrote a book on my own time. I volunteered to edit software user group technical journals on my own time. As my skills and professional connections improved my salary improved.
So we won't be retiring very early - but we could EASILY have done so had we known MMM principles two decades ago.
Hard work, smart work, spending discipline, investing discipline, and optimism beat whining pessimism every time.
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We say we have compassion, but that is just a word, unless you read something like this (linked below) and realize that we need to do something in our off-line life -
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/life/article/A-homeless-man-rides-out-the-storm-6309862.php
Sorry to be melodramatic Mustachianism will be a powerful source of good, I'm still wondering where Pete will take it...
It does require some privilege to retire at 30 even with excellent habits, like Pete. It doesn't take privilege to learn how to be badass and very happy living below your means and below the income levels that most people would consider survival level. That's something universal. Or to learn to manage money or pursue opportunities... I remember one post where he cited a case of a badass dad who raised his kids with practically nothing and made it work.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Outliers provide better inspiration than averagers.
Maybe. They can also push people away from the message by being so fantastical and unusual that they seem to be untrue and unrealistic.
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I don't even know why I'm going to wade deeper into this, but here I go :)
from: LiseE on June 12, 2015, 10:49:01 AM
Anyway .. I chimed in earlier on this thread ... the entire point of MMM's BLOG post, as with most of his posts, is about attitude .. about making the best with the circumstances and keeping a productive attitude .. about having a spirit of optimism.
Yes. Yes, that is the point.
Toque.
When people of privilege start all agreeing that the status quo and even the point of this blog is all to their liking, I am a bit put off.
...
When you are talking about being FI for the rest of your life at an early age, and telling others that are struggling to get their feet under them that they just need to work harder and spend less, they will probably look at you like you are from a different planet.
I'm just going to quote this part, because that's the point where I've clearly failed to communicate my position.
If you are a poorly privileged person, the best you can do for yourself is to make the best of your life. That is obviously true. It doesn't mean I'm going to berate someone without privilege as lacking in effort. It doesn't mean I'm without sympathy.
If you are a privileged person, you obviously have more opportunities to do good with your life. Part of that is, obviously, an obligation to help out those less fortunate. It's why I give to charitable causes, why I agitate wherever I am for greater fairness and justice, and why I spend so much time explaining the concept of privilege to people on the Internet who don't understand it.
I am not pleased with the status quo, although the message of this blog is something I agree with. I am not saying that people in poor positions of privilege should be left to their own devices. I am not saying we live in a fair and just society.
I am interested to know, though: how should the message of this blog change to accommodate privilege? Should MMM say, "Here is some advice, but it's okay not to use it if ... if what?"
Toque.
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Much of what is espoused here in the forum and in the blog surround the little changes that we can all make in our lives. Privileged or not, most of us can find areas where we are being wasteful with spending and make changes that will impact the bottom line. I recently watched a documentary on three families who were struggling to get off of government support. They were all hard working families ... it was their spending habits that were killing them. At one point, they had a home and lost it .. spent some time in a shelter .. also living in their car .. and throughout the story (which spanned six months) I noticed that the mom in this one family always had her nails done .. complete with a full set of tips. Here they are struggling to put food on the table for their kids but have money for nails? Really .. is that the priority? Even if she is doing them herself .. that shit costs money and quite a bit.
DO NOT GET ME WRONG .. I'm totally not judging here ... I realize that many .. dare I say most people in this country are not taught about finance and how to manage money. It wasn't until last year and reading this blog that I took a look at our own finances and started working it all out and it's been an ongoing project but we've come a long way. But until finding MMM last year, like many people .. I was just spending blindly .. and on credit .. etc. Dug a big debt hole and worked our asses off to get out of it.
MMM pushes us to look at our lives and find the areas where we spend wastefully. To analyze what you are purchasing and the relative need for that item. Sometimes he pushes too hard for my liking but you take what you agree with and apply it.
If you are privileged, make the most of it. Don't waste it. Recognize that you are privileged.
If you are not privileged, you'll have to work even harder. But that's about all you can do, because you didn't choose that circumstance. No one is going to give you anything. So make the most of what you can.
Either way, hard work and optimism is the way to go. But yes, the majority who "make it" will be privileged. It certainly helps. But it doesn't help the individual either way, they are or aren't, but still need to do what they can.
I'm ridiculously privileged and lucky. But I also had to do some work.
+1
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I don't even know why I'm going to wade deeper into this, but here I go :)
from: LiseE on June 12, 2015, 10:49:01 AM
Anyway .. I chimed in earlier on this thread ... the entire point of MMM's BLOG post, as with most of his posts, is about attitude .. about making the best with the circumstances and keeping a productive attitude .. about having a spirit of optimism.
Yes. Yes, that is the point.
Toque.
When people of privilege start all agreeing that the status quo and even the point of this blog is all to their liking, I am a bit put off.
...
When you are talking about being FI for the rest of your life at an early age, and telling others that are struggling to get their feet under them that they just need to work harder and spend less, they will probably look at you like you are from a different planet.
I'm just going to quote this part, because that's the point where I've clearly failed to communicate my position.
If you are a poorly privileged person, the best you can do for yourself is to make the best of your life. That is obviously true. It doesn't mean I'm going to berate someone without privilege as lacking in effort. It doesn't mean I'm without sympathy.
If you are a privileged person, you obviously have more opportunities to do good with your life. Part of that is, obviously, an obligation to help out those less fortunate. It's why I give to charitable causes, why I agitate wherever I am for greater fairness and justice, and why I spend so much time explaining the concept of privilege to people on the Internet who don't understand it.
I am not pleased with the status quo, although the message of this blog is something I agree with. I am not saying that people in poor positions of privilege should be left to their own devices. I am not saying we live in a fair and just society.
I am interested to know, though: how should the message of this blog change to accommodate privilege? Should MMM say, "Here is some advice, but it's okay not to use it if ... if what?"
Toque.
Bolding the part I'm responding to but I share your sentiments completely. I think MMM has done us all a great service. However, in the last year or so I've started to think that at some point the blog content could expand a bit to include people born into clearly underprivileged circumstances. Once you have the following that he has, and the level of influence that comes with it, isn't it a matter of ethics to go there? I know mustachianism can help the poor in many ways, but it will be different than what we 'the privileged' get out of it. Maybe it's not 10 years to FI but something else. I'm sure someone that smart and charismatic could come up with some helpful posts speaking directly to that demographic, even if it's not his personal experience. I keep getting the sense lately that he's preaching to the choir and the choir doesn't need any more help! I know, I know, I say this because I'm a longtime reader but the message still hasn't reached everyone. I just keep thinking there are people out there who are really struggling and could use this type of guidance so much more than we 'the privileged'. This is mostly my own frustration with not being able to do much to help. Giving to charity and a little activism feels so impotent in comparison to what this blog could do. Big sigh...
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So, let's assume that "privilege" exists and that some people have it and some do not.
That's not a hard assumption to make, it's simply true. :)
So what.
What portion of MMMs advice would be different for someone who has "privilege" and someone who does not?
I posit that nothing about his advice of spend less, spend wisely, improve yourself and your skills, and invest what you can would change one iota. Regardless of privilege, those who follow that advice are far more likely to get ahead than those that do not.
So, what's the point of bringing it up?
If you want to use it as an excuse for choosing not to do the right things to improve one's circumstances then you're full of horseshit. In fact, you're evil to be preaching a doctrine based on choosing to fail when a better option that increases the odds of success is available.
If you just want to point out that those with "privilege" will have an easier time of it than those without, you win the "Mr. Obvious" award. Whoopee. Tell us all something we don't know.
Me? I'm going to continue going to my local professional real estate investors group to learn more about how to make money in real estate from really savvy folks who really know how - most of whom are black and don't seem to have gotten the memo about how they can't succeed because of my white privilege. They are too busy making money and helping other people learn to do the same to feel sorry for themselves.
So, if you want to really help those who need help, insist that there are ways that they can improve their lot in life. It will require lots of hard and smart work, improving themselves, and growing as a person. Point them to MMM for good ideas. There are plenty of other sources of inspiration, too. But don't sell them short, they are capable of great things if they are pointed in the right direction and held accountable for staying that way. After all, they are part of the human race, which is the single most adaptable higher order species on the planet.
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Ok, ignoring the weird belligerance in the above response (horseshit, evil, yada yada)... All this talk about using lack of privilege as an excuse for doing nothing is kind of annoying. Are people doing that? Ok, yeah, that's lame. But I'm not talking about them. I’m talking about* the guy from the hood who can’t get a job better than night-shift clerk at the mini mart. The single mom of 3 working a couple jobs to make ends meet. The kid from the foster system who has trouble staying in school. The religious girl who got pregnant at 18 and married the father out of obligation, both leaving school to work at the local supermarket. The immigrant who spent the last decade surviving on dog food at a refugee camp and suddenly finds himself in the land of opportunity with no education or work experience. And on and on. People like that. Don't tell me the advice is exactly the same. I won’t even mention race since that is such a touchy issue around here. I know MMM can’t be Jesus Christ to everyone in every situation. But expanding out a little bit beyond the usual software engineer, farther even than the Ethans of the world would be very interesting and could do a lot of people a lot of good. It’s no use to say ‘just apply the same principles to those examples on a different scale’. People don’t really listen if the message isn’t directed at them. They barely listen when it is. I’m talking about taking Mustachianism to the people who need it most, the poor. Maslow’s hierarchy and all that. But maybe mustachianism doesn’t work for the poor and disenfranchised? Is that the case? Is it hopeless? I’m actually asking. Because if it is, then one admission of that would suffice. That might put an end to the privilege or no privilege debate for good.
*Actual people I’ve met.
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Ok, ignoring the weird belligerance in the above response (horseshit, evil, yada yada)... All this talk about using lack of privilege as an excuse for doing nothing is kind of annoying. Are people doing that? Ok, yeah, that's lame. But I'm not talking about them. I’m talking about* the guy from the hood who can’t get a job better than night-shift clerk at the mini mart. The single mom of 3 working a couple jobs to make ends meet. The kid from the foster system who has trouble staying in school. The religious girl who got pregnant at 18 and married the father out of obligation, both leaving school to work at the local supermarket. The immigrant who spent the last decade surviving on dog food at a refugee camp and suddenly finds himself in the land of opportunity with no education or work experience. And on and on. People like that. Don't tell me the advice is exactly the same. I won’t even mention race since that is such a touchy issue around here. I know MMM can’t be Jesus Christ to everyone in every situation. But expanding out a little bit beyond the usual software engineer, farther even than the Ethans of the world would be very interesting and could do a lot of people a lot of good. It’s no use to say ‘just apply the same principles to those examples on a different scale’. People don’t really listen if the message isn’t directed at them. They barely listen when it is. I’m talking about taking Mustachianism to the people who need it most, the poor. Maslow’s hierarchy and all that. But maybe mustachianism doesn’t work for the poor and disenfranchised? Is that the case? Is it hopeless? I’m actually asking. Because if it is, then one admission of that would suffice. That might put an end to the privilege or no privilege debate for good.
*Actual people I’ve met.
Even MMM said that the principles of FIRE can't necessarily work as easily for everyone in all situations. There's a couple of articles where he tried to coach people with much more difficult situations than his and it isn't always easy to provide an answer. If there is no spare money, it's very tough to get one's saving rate high enough to achieve early retirement. Right now with what I earn in this country with my family responsibilities, I can't see an easy way of doing it - but I'm fortunate in that I can still make the changes in time.
It doesn't mean that people can't be helped to live a more badass lifestyle. Even the disenfranchised and hopeless can improve their situations and take some measure of control over their finances. They can get out of debt, understand the principles of money, budget properly, and find a way to increase their incomes. Even if they could manage to save 10% more than they were doing, that can mean a huge improvement in living standard - much more than it does for someone who earns a large salary. So yeah, I think there is some universality to the principles.
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I know MMM can’t be Jesus Christ to everyone in every situation. But expanding out a little bit beyond the usual software engineer, farther even than the Ethans of the world would be very interesting and could do a lot of people a lot of good. It’s no use to say ‘just apply the same principles to those examples on a different scale’. People don’t really listen if the message isn’t directed at them. They barely listen when it is. I’m talking about taking Mustachianism to the people who need it most, the poor. Maslow’s hierarchy and all that. But maybe mustachianism doesn’t work for the poor and disenfranchised? Is that the case? Is it hopeless? I’m actually asking. Because if it is, then one admission of that would suffice. That might put an end to the privilege or no privilege debate for good.
Why is it MMM's responsibility to reach everyone? His gift is being able to communicate with a specific market. He doesn't necessarily have the same life experiences or skills that would make his message immediately relevant to large segments of the population.
He does what he can with the tools he has - why is he anymore responsible to fix these social problems then the rest of us? We are ALL responsible. We can sit here and ask "why isn't he doing more, or different, or x" Or we can take what we have learned and help others.
How many mustachians out there are using their skills/interests and abilities and making a real difference in the wold? How many of MMM's target audience have been able to use their position of strength to help others? (hint: quite a few) I have rebuilt community non-profits, I have created programs that mentor at-risk youth, put on free programs to teach life and parenting skills to low income families, worked to raise money for Canadian Doctors volunteering in Syria... None of which I could have done if I hadn't taken and applied the lessons MMM has shared.
There are other people on the boards engaged in volunteer and social non-profit work and using their own skills, gifts, and talents to make a difference in their world - none of which would be possible if they had not built a position of strength/financial security from which to live from. There is a trickle down effect I think you are discounting.
The Mustachian lifestyle is not a religion. MMM is a messenger, not a deity. We can sit around on the forums and constantly argue about how the message is delivered.... or we can get off our asses and use OUR talents and skills to help in the areas we can.
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But maybe mustachianism doesn’t work for the poor and disenfranchised? Is that the case? Is it hopeless? I’m actually asking. Because if it is, then one admission of that would suffice. That might put an end to the privilege or no privilege debate for good.
Honestly, I think most people living in poverty could teach courses on mustachianism (though presumably they'd call it something else)--they don't need to be taught it by high-income people. Making do and making your own are how people manage when they don't have any way of getting around it. There's some hubris in suggesting that a bunch of well-paid professionals should show poor people how to stretch a dollar--they're definitely already doing it.
I do a fair bit of poverty law, and I frequently work with people who live on $8-12,000 a year with no access to credit and a minimal financial support network (eg they might be able to borrow $100 from mom, once every few months). When it comes to cash side hustles, finding deals, living with roommates (or staying with subpar spouses because you can't afford to leave), stretching a bag of rice--believe you me, they should be teaching the class, not taking it.
If y'all have ever read Poorcraft (http://poorcraft.com/)--that's basically the badassery parts of mustachianism, for people who didn't grow up poor but have found themselves in tough circumstances.
So I'd say yes, mustachianism isn't really a useful tool for people living in poverty. The parts they can use, they already know or deserve to learn from sources meant specifically for them; other parts just aren't very useful (like "it's easy to save half your income by cutting minor luxuries"). And I'd say that MMM has acknowledged this in the past, using case studies of people who have clearly cut their spending to the bone already and who just don't have the options that many of us do for easy reductions.
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I think the relationship between poverty and MMM's philosophy is something he mentioned himself in a couple of blog posts.
For example, here: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/26/reader-case-study-minimum-wage-with-a-baby-on-the-way/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/26/reader-case-study-minimum-wage-with-a-baby-on-the-way/)
"...due to the 20 year period since my own Minimum Wage Days, I have not known what to say."
There's another post/comment where he mentions that his only real experience with minimum wage was while he was still in high school, living with his parents. From that point of view, he didn't feel it appropriate to lecture people on minimum wage, since he'd never really had to live it himself. (except to say that human beings deserve way better for themselves than to take such low wages).
So part of the issue is simple humility: it's inappropriate for people like us to condescend like that. It's better to have people like Ethan and the "young guy" in that article explain what they've done, how they've overcome obstacles, as they understand it better and won't accidentally trivialize something serious.
Toque.
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.....However, in the last year or so I've started to think that at some point the blog content could expand a bit to include people born into clearly underprivileged circumstances. Once you have the following that he has, and the level of influence that comes with it, isn't it a matter of ethics to go there? I know mustachianism can help the poor in many ways, but it will be different than what we 'the privileged' get out of it. Maybe it's not 10 years to FI but something else. I'm sure someone that smart and charismatic could come up with some helpful posts speaking directly to that demographic, even if it's not his personal experience. ....
Well that is not sensational....that is more normal and doesn't "sell" so to speak.....but I agree with you....some stories/examples of people that started in poor circumstances and climbed out through education, hard work, risk taking, being financially prudent, etc would be great and resonate more with the general populous.....but it still wouldn't be exciting or dream worthy.
....I’m talking about* the guy from the hood who can’t get a job better than night-shift clerk at the mini mart. The single mom of 3 working a couple jobs to make ends meet. The kid from the foster system who has trouble staying in school. The religious girl who got pregnant at 18 and married the father out of obligation, both leaving school to work at the local supermarket. The immigrant who spent the last decade surviving on dog food at a refugee camp and suddenly finds himself in the land of opportunity with no education or work experience. And on and on. People like that. Don't tell me the advice is exactly the same. ....
These are largely societal issues....where education, mentorship, community involvement would go a long long way.
Honestly, I think most people living in poverty could teach courses on mustachianism (though presumably they'd call it something else)--they don't need to be taught it by high-income people. Making do and making your own are how people manage when they don't have any way of getting around it. There's some hubris in suggesting that a bunch of well-paid professionals should show poor people how to stretch a dollar--they're definitely already doing it. this in the past, using case studies of people who have clearly cut their spending to the bone already and who just don't have the options that many of us do for easy reductions.
Agree but poor people (out of circumstance) still make poor decisions, spending on crap food, video games, cars, large TVs - although I struggle with this a bit because it is hard to be poor and climb out living in areas where crab-mentality prevails - so these things provide a bit of escapism from their lives even if they are misaligned.
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MMM and Mrs MM had a high joint income when they were working and that certainly helped their situation. Saving 50% or more of a higher income is always going to be more than an equivalent percentage saved from a lower income.
That said, I don't think this was their greatest privilege.
Their greatest privilege, if you could even call it a privilege was learning about the principles of FIRE/Mustachianism/ERE/whatever at a young age.
I started learning about the principles at the age of 31, and I am going to turn 33 in a few months.
MMM was already retired by that age.
I also read a post from someone on the forum a while back who was just 19 years of age. I was insanely jealous. Imagine learning about Mustachianism when you were that young?
Even if it was pre-internet and investing was harder work, you could still compile a very fat stache before 30 and save yourself a whole heap of heartache over debt and all that consumer driven nonsense.
If I'd learned about the principles even at the age of 25, I'd be so much further down the road than I am now.
I guess I just have to be grateful that I found this place at all.
So even if you're from an ethnic minority and you never went to college and you work a minimum wage job, and you're a woman, and you're in poverty, if you stumbled across this blog and started reading it in an internet cafe before the age of 20, that could be all you need to completely transform your life.
Mustchianism is a mindset. The earlier you can adopt it, the better. Right?
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If I'd learned about the principles even at the age of 25, I'd be so much further down the road than I am now.
Yeah, this is very true.
I started on this journey about 3 years ago around that age and we should pretty easily be at $300k+ net worth at age 30.
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I started learning about the principles at the age of 31, and I am going to turn 33 in a few months.
MMM was already retired by that age.
This is true. Presumably though, you're in a better position than the 19 year old learning about it now. You should be further in your career and making more money . . . so retirement should be sooner for you.
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I started learning about the principles at the age of 31, and I am going to turn 33 in a few months.
MMM was already retired by that age.
This is true. Presumably though, you're in a better position than the 19 year old learning about it now. You should be further in your career and making more money . . . so retirement should be sooner for you.
I've had these thoughts as well. However, I've come to the conclusion that I wasn't ready to truly "listen" to a message like this until I was around 30. I found this site at 35. I might be retired by now if I found it at 30. I would've likely laughed at this site when I was 23 even though I was already relatively frugal. I was just too thick headed and self absorbed to listen to anyone else at that age.
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I started learning about the principles at the age of 31, and I am going to turn 33 in a few months.
MMM was already retired by that age.
This is true. Presumably though, you're in a better position than the 19 year old learning about it now. You should be further in your career and making more money . . . so retirement should be sooner for you.
I've had these thoughts as well. However, I've come to the conclusion that I wasn't ready to truly "listen" to a message like this until I was around 30. I found this site at 35. I might be retired by now if I found it at 30. I would've likely laughed at this site when I was 23 even though I was already relatively frugal. I was just too thick headed and self absorbed to listen to anyone else at that age.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear sort of thing?
Whenever I found it, I'm glad I did.
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I started learning about the principles at the age of 31, and I am going to turn 33 in a few months.
MMM was already retired by that age.
This is true. Presumably though, you're in a better position than the 19 year old learning about it now. You should be further in your career and making more money . . . so retirement should be sooner for you.
I've had these thoughts as well. However, I've come to the conclusion that I wasn't ready to truly "listen" to a message like this until I was around 30. I found this site at 35. I might be retired by now if I found it at 30. I would've likely laughed at this site when I was 23 even though I was already relatively frugal. I was just too thick headed and self absorbed to listen to anyone else at that age.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear sort of thing?
Whenever I found it, I'm glad I did.
I was much older when Jacob, JD and finally Pete appeared on the scene. Had they been there earlier, I'm sure I could have FIRE'd sooner. Either way, I'm glad each of them cared enough to make time in their lives to raise the lamp to light other's paths. Talk about makng a difference in the world.
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This post really rubbed me the wrong way. Privilege as a concept is stupid. I am not a long time reader, but the entire point of this blog to me seems to be based around the idea that if save money, you can make that money work for you and not live a worse life because of it.
The reason I've started reading through the articles on this blog is because of the "retire early" article. I don't know how I ended up there, but basically the idea resonated with generally how I felt about life in the first place, but it just put it in a more numerical perspective.
That being said, while this is anecdotal evidence, people always seem to bring up the problems others incur that make their situation impossible to manage like another person does, simply because the other person has incurred some magical "privilege" that allowed them to do so.
I am a young black male. I come from a family that commonly lived my entire life below the poverty level. FAR below the poverty level. The total household income for 6-7 of us has only exceeded 20 thousand dollars once, and generally is around 15 thousand dollars. Because of this, there were times when I was hungry, and had no food, and we could not afford air conditioning in a very hot area (40-47c in summer, meaning I live in the worst part of California) and statistically not much is expected from me from pretty much anyone because I was a poor inner city youth where the only thing going for me is I had both a mother and father (disabled) in my home.
My life felt pretty bad, but luckily I was an ok mathematician and a realist. Rather than sitting around being hungry, I asked my mother how much money we made total in the house. The main issues I wanted to solve was the issue of never having money and the issue of being hungry at the end of the month. To my surprise, when I ran the numbers I figured easily even being extremely poor we could save out money every month and have a reasonable (at least I thought it was reasonable at the time) food budget combine with assistance the government gives us to actually live an ok life.
My mother told me I was young, stupid, and had no idea what I was talking about.
Fast forward a few years to when I was an adult and still lived with her, and I refused to give her any money for anything unless she attempted the plans I had refined over the years to keep money in the house. The plans worked, but my mom simply did not want to sacrifice the changes in life style that had incurred upon us because of my choices, EVEN THOUGH IT IS AN EXTREME DETRIMENT TO US BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL OF POVERTY WE LIVED AT.
Do you see the pattern? Regardless of any privilege, it's exactly as the owner of this blog has said. Being poor, middle class or whatever was irrelevant. The mentality is the only thing stopping my mother from saving money. She refuses to give up cable, and even on cable wants some "premium" packages, and spends lots of money on cigarettes, and buys microwavable processed food from the store.
It has started to annoy me when I see on the news how poverty is never the fault of people who are in poverty, or their lifestyle choices aren't. We did not have a car, so it is hard to go to the grocery store. Thankfully, I don't live in a food desert, but if I did, a car would be a necessity. Why then, does my mother not give up cable to be able to quickly accumulate the money required to get the car?
And this pattern was not something I only observed in my own family, I observed it in OTHER families as well while living in poverty, around people in poverty. Eventually I moved to a neighborhood that was bussed to a school with kids you would consider "privileged," and the habits of them and their parents did not seem to change. Nothing changed. People were the same at all income brackets.
Personally, I figured there was no reason to live like this. Without going to college I taught myself how to program and began work in the field. When everybody else through high school was screwing around, I was learning how to code and making things. Instead of wasting time in college like others around me were doing shuffling through degrees, I studied all day to learn skills because I enjoyed them and it could become a career.
To put that in perspective I was black, poor, and live in America and was able to overcome all of that to become successful. Even before learning this blog existed, I lived frugally because not having much as a child made me quickly realize having "much" beyond being able to eat and not having to sit in 47 degree weather in your home (Sorry Mr. Mustache guy, 42+ degrees is fucking hot and no human should subject themselves to that in their own house, but I do agree bringing down the temperature relatively at peak heat times is a much better alternative to aiming for 20 degrees at all hours) Meanwhile, at my age everybody around me is still eating out, working dead end jobs, giving up everything they pursue, buying tons of crap they don't need and cannot think in terms beyond a few months at best.
But I'm sure the only reason they will never be successful is simply a "privilege" they didn't have, only the people with well off parents I know are the bad ones!
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This post really rubbed me the wrong way. Privilege as a concept is stupid. I am not a long time reader, but the entire point of this blog to me seems to be based around the idea that if save money, you can make that money work for you and not live a worse life because of it.
The reason I've started reading through the articles on this blog is because of the "retire early" article. I don't know how I ended up there, but basically the idea resonated with generally how I felt about life in the first place, but it just put it in a more numerical perspective.
That being said, while this is anecdotal evidence, people always seem to bring up the problems others incur that make their situation impossible to manage like another person does, simply because the other person has incurred some magical "privilege" that allowed them to do so.
I am a young black male. I come from a family that commonly lived my entire life below the poverty level. FAR below the poverty level. The total household income for 6-7 of us has only exceeded 20 thousand dollars once, and generally is around 15 thousand dollars. Because of this, there were times when I was hungry, and had no food, and we could not afford air conditioning in a very hot area (40-47c in summer, meaning I live in the worst part of California) and statistically not much is expected from me from pretty much anyone because I was a poor inner city youth where the only thing going for me is I had both a mother and father (disabled) in my home.
My life felt pretty bad, but luckily I was an ok mathematician and a realist. Rather than sitting around being hungry, I asked my mother how much money we made total in the house. The main issues I wanted to solve was the issue of never having money and the issue of being hungry at the end of the month. To my surprise, when I ran the numbers I figured easily even being extremely poor we could save out money every month and have a reasonable (at least I thought it was reasonable at the time) food budget combine with assistance the government gives us to actually live an ok life.
My mother told me I was young, stupid, and had no idea what I was talking about.
Fast forward a few years to when I was an adult and still lived with her, and I refused to give her any money for anything unless she attempted the plans I had refined over the years to keep money in the house. The plans worked, but my mom simply did not want to sacrifice the changes in life style that had incurred upon us because of my choices, EVEN THOUGH IT IS AN EXTREME DETRIMENT TO US BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL OF POVERTY WE LIVED AT.
Do you see the pattern? Regardless of any privilege, it's exactly as the owner of this blog has said. Being poor, middle class or whatever was irrelevant. The mentality is the only thing stopping my mother from saving money. She refuses to give up cable, and even on cable wants some "premium" packages, and spends lots of money on cigarettes, and buys microwavable processed food from the store.
It has started to annoy me when I see on the news how poverty is never the fault of people who are in poverty, or their lifestyle choices aren't. We did not have a car, so it is hard to go to the grocery store. Thankfully, I don't live in a food desert, but if I did, a car would be a necessity. Why then, does my mother not give up cable to be able to quickly accumulate the money required to get the car?
And this pattern was not something I only observed in my own family, I observed it in OTHER families as well while living in poverty, around people in poverty. Eventually I moved to a neighborhood that was bussed to a school with kids you would consider "privileged," and the habits of them and their parents did not seem to change. Nothing changed. People were the same at all income brackets.
Personally, I figured there was no reason to live like this. Without going to college I taught myself how to program and began work in the field. When everybody else through high school was screwing around, I was learning how to code and making things. Instead of wasting time in college like others around me were doing shuffling through degrees, I studied all day to learn skills because I enjoyed them and it could become a career.
To put that in perspective I was black, poor, and live in America and was able to overcome all of that to become successful. Even before learning this blog existed, I lived frugally because not having much as a child made me quickly realize having "much" beyond being able to eat and not having to sit in 47 degree weather in your home (Sorry Mr. Mustache guy, 42+ degrees is fucking hot and no human should subject themselves to that in their own house, but I do agree bringing down the temperature relatively at peak heat times is a much better alternative to aiming for 20 degrees at all hours) Meanwhile, at my age everybody around me is still eating out, working dead end jobs, giving up everything they pursue, buying tons of crap they don't need and cannot think in terms beyond a few months at best.
But I'm sure the only reason they will never be successful is simply a "privilege" they didn't have, only the people with well off parents I know are the bad ones!
Oh hey, fake MMM account guy :p
I got an immense amount of enjoyment from reading that, thanks.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Oh hey, fake MMM account guy :p
I got an immense amount of enjoyment from reading that, thanks.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Maybe I should take a picture with a timestamp lol.
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Oh hey, fake MMM account guy :p
I got an immense amount of enjoyment from reading that, thanks.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Maybe I should take a picture with a timestamp lol.
Yuuki, welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your story.
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Oh hey, fake MMM account guy :p
I got an immense amount of enjoyment from reading that, thanks.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Maybe I should take a picture with a timestamp lol.
If you are real and really from America then why do you say 47 degrees is hot? Are you a snowman?
(http://i.imgur.com/r3xPjAR.jpg)
probably my favorite map btw
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Regarding the newest post: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/06/05/success-even-after-self-destruction/
MMM is quick to point out that the Medium article is very complainypants, but that really rubs me the wrong way. I think the Medium article touches on (briefly) a very important, very relevant criticism of the MMM philosophy, which is that all of us who retire early or are on track to are RIDICULOUSLY PRIVILEGED.
Okay, okay, if MMM is only targeting people who have enough money and who waste it needlessly, then I guess this post is pointless. However, the idea that 'I worked hard for what I got', especially in light of the recent reader case study, is problematic. That user says he didn't finish a college degree, was a former addict, and ex-convict. However, he is also male and (I'm guessing) white, in America. Think about if he was black, a woman, transgender, a person with a disability, someone with a different background, different support, and different opportunities.
A lot of people work hard. A lot of people work really fucking hard and had hard fucking lives and continue to have really hard lives. A lot of people experience institutionalized racism, sexism, ableism, etc. that prevents them from the opportunities you think you achieved from mere hard work alone. I understand that it's hard to target everyone, and yeah maybe some people need to hear that 'hard work is all it takes.' However, that completely disregards the experience of so many people.
I'd recommend reading this for a much better explanation of why 'I worked hard for what I got' is still completely laced with privelege: http://www.vagabomb.com/This-Comic-Will-Forever-Change-the-Way-You-Look-at-Privilege/
I think this is what people always miss in the privilege conversation. He's not comparing privileged people to unprivileged people. He's comparing privileged people to privileged people. There are plenty of people with plenty of privilege who still complain and don't work to have the same success as the people they complain about.
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It does require some privilege to retire at 30 even with excellent habits, like Pete. It doesn't take privilege to learn how to be badass and very happy living below your means and below the income levels that most people would consider survival level. That's something universal. Or to learn to manage money or pursue opportunities... I remember one post where he cited a case of a badass dad who raised his kids with practically nothing and made it work.
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This sums it up. You don't need privilege to live MMM's ideas. You need to be (or become) a badass. In some ways coming in from behind is actually quite helpful! How many posters here came from poor families who knew how to stretch a buck? Lots! How many had to learn to bust their ass? Lots!
Privilege abounds in these forums, but even the most disadvantaged can take MMM's words and put them to action. Or do you think its impossible for them? Go tell that to their face. "Yeah, this here writer helped me dropmy phone bill from $1200 a year to $130 a year, save me $2000 a year in gas after I traded my Explorer for a Civic and gave me a shit ton of ideas for changing my job to something better paying. Nothing useful to you, since you're poor, black, and female though." Does this make any sense?
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But maybe mustachianism doesn’t work for the poor and disenfranchised? Is that the case? Is it hopeless? I’m actually asking. Because if it is, then one admission of that would suffice. That might put an end to the privilege or no privilege debate for good.
Honestly, I think most people living in poverty could teach courses on mustachianism (though presumably they'd call it something else)--they don't need to be taught it by high-income people. Making do and making your own are how people manage when they don't have any way of getting around it. There's some hubris in suggesting that a bunch of well-paid professionals should show poor people how to stretch a dollar--they're definitely already doing it.
I do a fair bit of poverty law, and I frequently work with people who live on $8-12,000 a year with no access to credit and a minimal financial support network (eg they might be able to borrow $100 from mom, once every few months). When it comes to cash side hustles, finding deals, living with roommates (or staying with subpar spouses because you can't afford to leave), stretching a bag of rice--believe you me, they should be teaching the class, not taking it.
If y'all have ever read Poorcraft (http://poorcraft.com/)--that's basically the badassery parts of mustachianism, for people who didn't grow up poor but have found themselves in tough circumstances.
So I'd say yes, mustachianism isn't really a useful tool for people living in poverty. The parts they can use, they already know or deserve to learn from sources meant specifically for them; other parts just aren't very useful (like "it's easy to save half your income by cutting minor luxuries"). And I'd say that MMM has acknowledged this in the past, using case studies of people who have clearly cut their spending to the bone already and who just don't have the options that many of us do for easy reductions.
I'd say this mostly hits the nail on the head. However, I would add that in my experience there is still a pressure among the poor to keep up with the consumptive habits of the middle and upper classes. I have seen this working as a mental health counselor as well as working in youth centers that serve underprivileged populations. I remember a mother who was living in a shelter, getting a check from the government and buying her 3 sons each $30 haircuts. Or kids from impoverished families coming in with brand new smart phones and/or sneakers.
This is an area where I believe MMM's message can further support folks in poverty. Consumerism certainly impedes folks in the middle class, but it's even more damaging to those people who stretch their budgets to incorporate extraneous consumer goods when they can barely afford the basics. Certainly this isn't a universal trend, but I think there is a real urge among the folks I've worked with to not appear to be poor, and thus to display some semblance of a middle class lifestyle.
I don't mean any of this as a "the poor bring it upon themselves" message. I'm simply concluding that I have seen our Bullshit Consumer Culture be incredibly damaging to the people with the least. In my view, MMM's unabashed criticism of this strain of Western culture is indirectly helpful to the poor.
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Hmm, reading over what I just wrote it would appear my advice to struggling addicts is to just go to prison then switch over to hard liquor...? See, we knew it! You are privileged! You had prison to help with your addiction! It's so unfair, why can't I go to prison???
Seriously, seeing that you are in the Seattle area now, I wanted to give you a heads up about Grocery Outlet. If you don't got there already, check it out. I think they are the best money savers around here.
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Hmm, reading over what I just wrote it would appear my advice to struggling addicts is to just go to prison then switch over to hard liquor...? See, we knew it! You are privileged! You had prison to help with your addiction! It's so unfair, why can't I go to prison???
Seriously, seeing that you are in the Seattle area now, I wanted to give you a heads up about Grocery Outlet. If you don't got there already, check it out. I think they are the best money savers around here.
Don't forget Winco. And the 99 Cents Only Stores. There are only three genuine 99 Only Stores in the greater Seattle area, don't settle for copycat stores. Funny, just did a google search and it looks like there are only three Winco's, too. Map it out and make a visit, because both are budget stretchers, along with Grocery Outlet.
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Ok, ignoring the weird belligerance in the above response (horseshit, evil, yada yada)... All this talk about using lack of privilege as an excuse for doing nothing is kind of annoying. Are people doing that? Ok, yeah, that's lame. But I'm not talking about them. I’m talking about* the guy from the hood who can’t get a job better than night-shift clerk at the mini mart. The single mom of 3 working a couple jobs to make ends meet. The kid from the foster system who has trouble staying in school. The religious girl who got pregnant at 18 and married the father out of obligation, both leaving school to work at the local supermarket. The immigrant who spent the last decade surviving on dog food at a refugee camp and suddenly finds himself in the land of opportunity with no education or work experience. And on and on. People like that. Don't tell me the advice is exactly the same. I won’t even mention race since that is such a touchy issue around here. I know MMM can’t be Jesus Christ to everyone in every situation. But expanding out a little bit beyond the usual software engineer, farther even than the Ethans of the world would be very interesting and could do a lot of people a lot of good. It’s no use to say ‘just apply the same principles to those examples on a different scale’. People don’t really listen if the message isn’t directed at them. They barely listen when it is. I’m talking about taking Mustachianism to the people who need it most, the poor. Maslow’s hierarchy and all that. But maybe mustachianism doesn’t work for the poor and disenfranchised? Is that the case? Is it hopeless? I’m actually asking. Because if it is, then one admission of that would suffice. That might put an end to the privilege or no privilege debate for good.
*Actual people I’ve met.
So, what about the advice would be different?
Let's see:
Work harder. How would not working at all, or slacking off, or just putting in a so-so effort help them more?
Work Smarter. FYI, Work Smarter includes the concept of taking stock of your circumstances, strengths and weaknesses. It includes capitalizing on one's strengths (and improving them) and minimizing one's weaknesses (or removing them) in order to improve one's situation. If a strength that one has is qualifying for aid or assistance or needs-based scholarships or earned-income tax credits, then working smarter would include making use of those strengths if no better option existed. It would include thinking out of the box to find something, anything, to give oneself an edge.
So, again, how would failing to collect money and resources one is due, or a better job, or failing to learn skills so one could get a better paying job, or doing things as dumb as possible help them more?
Minimize Spending. How would spending money on things that won't improve their situation help them more? How will spending money on things that will actually make their situation worse help them more?
Increase Income. How would never trying to get more money for the same amount of labor, or never trying to improve one's income with a side gig help them more?
Invest Surplus Income. Well, obviously, until the income and spending issues aren't solved, there won't be any regular surplus. But, if they have a surplus at some point in their life (a windfall or they get their income/spending issues solved), how would failing to invest their money in a sensible way help them more?
Be Optimistic Going back to Ethan's story, do you know what got him that job that started it all off? His attitude. His unwavering determination to do the absolute best job for his employer he could possibly do. The absolute faith that if he did all that he could, given copious amounts of work and some time, make things work out. I have to tell you, when I find someone like that, I do what I can to help them along. They are a treasure to know. And other people I know who have been successful thru following the same principles tend to help them along, too.
So, how would being so pessimistic that they never even try to improve things help them more? How would being so pessimistic that they are a downer to everyone around them help them get a better paying job, better networking prospects, or even a life partner?
As for my "weird belligerence", I don't think it's weird at all. I have suffered thru too many people expounding upon how people can't get ahead today when it's a well demonstrated fact that people can do so. Telling someone they must suffer in poverty because there is no way out while knowing there is a way that can work IS evil. How else would you describe stealing the hope that might have fueled their success? And that includes telling them they are helpless until society comes along and gives them a hand out. That brings out the belligerence in me pretty darned fast.
To believe that they must suffer in poverty because their is no way out in the face of repeated examples of how someone has succeeded is true folly based on horseshit logic.
Now, to be completely fair, it WOULD be better if we did not have structural inequalities in our systems. It would be better if society made the playing field more fair and just. I vote for people who want to do that. And maybe, in some future day, maybe even while the poor persons we are giving advice to today are alive and young enough to benefit from, it will happen. Or maybe things will get worse for the poor. It's not in my control and it's not in their control.
But when I make that point, I make DAMN SURE that I NEVER say they can't get ahead unless we fix the system. FYI - the system will NEVER be completely fair for all people until there is only one human left alive.
In the meantime, I choose to help people help themselves. I choose to offer advice to people who are making poor choices and only help them if they start making better choices. Otherwise I'm wasting my limited time and resources when I could help someone else out instead.
The simple answer is that trying the MMM philosophy in life is often going to be the best (and only!) way for people to succeed. The worse their situation the MORE they need to try it, not less.
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I wish people would be more compassionate. :<
And educated on these fields. Social science has been researching and validating things like privilege, microaggressions, tokenism, and the glass escalator for years at this point. These are entry level concepts for people studying these fields or living these realities. Talking about them is not whining or anything like that and it's not up to debate whether they exist or not - they exist and we need to talk about these issues to fix them. It's several data driven fields of study. ++ to the invisible backpack.
Privilege isn't discounting the hard work of privileged people. I really like the comic from the op's post bc it highlights that they both worked hard. It's just that the system is set up to work better for a person from a certain background but also make invisible the benefits received. The comic also highlights how it's compassion that lets us learn about the roadblocks in the waiter's path to a different career even though she made a lot of the right boot-strappy choices. And the few ppl from marginalized communities who managed to make it into places of capital and wealth aren't enough; the talented 10th is kind of a shot theory.
Sometimes I think MMM needs a careful application of compassion and the Audre Lorde quote "caring for myself is not self indulgence. it is self preservation and that is an act of political warfare" [for a black lesbian]. Sometimes people need to take a break and sometimes taking care of yourself can mean something different if you didn't grow up with stability or certain middle class type things.
I do like the point that MMM simply isn't in the place to preach to poor people or structurally disadvantaged people bc I think about that a lot myself when trying to help and advise, but there may be some language slippage in most of his posts wrt 'anyone can do it! everyone should be a badass!' enthusiasm vs his actual 'this is much harder for min wage and i haven't actually done this on min wage' nuance. Certainly a lot of forum posters didn't get the nuanced view or weren't clearly expressing it to my eyes.
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Think about if he was black, a woman, transgender, a person with a disability, someone with a different background, different support, and different opportunities.
......I understand that it's hard to target everyone, and yeah maybe some people need to hear that 'hard work is all it takes.' However, that completely disregards the experience of so many people.
I agree that MMM is suited for the privileged, indeed.
I disagree that only a few people have that privilege in North America, Europe, etc. A great many of the people you mention above, have a lot of privilege available to them, by virtue of being born in a country with social supports, permission to move to gain employment, free education, etc. etc. etc.
My guess is that 80% of people in North America could be considered Privileged to some degree. I know I am, and I am a woman. Do i run into disadvantages at times? of course! But net, net, the privilege I received is still larger.
I am sure many (of course not all, but many) black persons can point to net advantages over the disadvantages, as can those with some disabilities, or hard upbringing, etc. Perhaps it is moreso in Canada, with a minimum family support level (cash) combined with a MUCH lower incarceration rate, but perhaps not?
So from my viewpoint, yes, MMM is suited for privileged persons, and that is pretty much all of us with access to this blog and MMM.
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I'll bite on this one. I'll be the first one to say that things don't start out fair. But notice what I said...I didn't say life isn't fair.
I think that's a huge misconception that many people have. Life is VERY fair over the long term. If you're familiar with statistics then you know about volatility. You can be sure your life will swing with an 85% or so confidence interval. Bad things will happen to you, but good things will to. If you put in your salt and sweat though for DECADES and YEARS while others squander their time, you better believe the universe will reward you for it, and I'm not even religious or anything.
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I'll bite on this one. I'll be the first one to say that things don't start out fair. But notice what I said...I didn't say life isn't fair.
I think that's a huge misconception that many people have. Life is VERY fair over the long term. If you're familiar with statistics then you know about volatility. You can be sure your life will swing with an 85% or so confidence interval. Bad things will happen to you, but good things will to. If you put in your salt and sweat though for DECADES and YEARS while others squander their time, you better believe the universe will reward you for it, and I'm not even religious or anything.
So, in your opinion there are no hard working people in a place like . . . Malawi, Niger, or the Democratic Republic of the Congo for example?
Where you end up depends a lot on how hard you work. It also depends an awful lot on where you start. There are more opportunities in North America than a lot of places around the world, but there are still circumstances that can heavily conspire against you. Claiming that success is solely due to hard work is a comforting thing to cling to (particularly if you're a successful person), but the dark side of holding that view is that it enables you to place blame that isn't always deserved at the feet of people who may have worked hard but not been as lucky as you.
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Hello, everybody!
I am new to this forum and this is my first post.
I wanted to say that Ethan's letter to MMM is very inspirational to me. I am not this blog's target demographic (at least, as I perceive it) as I am currently unemployed because of mental health problems.
But, let me tell you that even my situation does not stop me from getting my life back on track, mustachian style. My husband and I are paying off our mortgage quickly and I am investing the rest of the money for our retirement. I started saving like a madwoman (no pun intended) since I got ill and discovered that it actually helps me get better because it creates peace in my life. That is my main motivation to stay on track. Financial stability creates a peace of mind and that is essential for people with mental health problems.
As I am trying to get back to work, Ethan's letter motivates me a lot. I saved it and I read it every day. It's not easy to find a job and keep a job if one has metal health issues, but I know I can do it.
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That's terrific, Nera. Good luck!
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Hello, everybody!
I am new to this forum and this is my first post.
I wanted to say that Ethan's letter to MMM is very inspirational to me. I am not this blog's target demographic (at least, as I perceive it) as I am currently unemployed because of mental health problems.
But, let me tell you that even my situation does not stop me from getting my life back on track, mustachian style. My husband and I are paying off our mortgage quickly and I am investing the rest of the money for our retirement. I started saving like a madwoman (no pun intended) since I got ill and discovered that it actually helps me get better because it creates peace in my life. That is my main motivation to stay on track. Financial stability creates a peace of mind and that is essential for people with mental health problems.
As I am trying to get back to work, Ethan's letter motivates me a lot. I saved it and I read it every day. It's not easy to find a job and keep a job if one has metal health issues, but I know I can do it.
This totally made my day. I hope everything goes great for you Nera, you are awesome.
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Thank you, guys!
Ethan, you are truly an inspiration.
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I'd recommend reading this for a much better explanation of why 'I worked hard for what I got' is still completely laced with privelege: http://www.vagabomb.com/This-Comic-Will-Forever-Change-the-Way-You-Look-at-Privilege/
Yes, that cartoon has been mentioned several times. What is not clear (at least to me) is, if we assume privilege exists, what one is supposed to do as a consequence. Any thoughts?
Be aware of your bias. Ask yourself if you would judge the person as harshly if that person was like you. If you are in a hiring situation, look at qualifications prior to the name (which will influence your judgement of the qualifications).
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I'd recommend reading this for a much better explanation of why 'I worked hard for what I got' is still completely laced with privelege: http://www.vagabomb.com/This-Comic-Will-Forever-Change-the-Way-You-Look-at-Privilege/
Yes, that cartoon has been mentioned several times. What is not clear (at least to me) is, if we assume privilege exists, what one is supposed to do as a consequence. Any thoughts?
Be aware of your bias. Ask yourself if you would judge the person as harshly if that person was like you. If you are in a hiring situation, look at qualifications prior to the name (which will influence your judgement of the qualifications).
Those all seem very reasonable suggestions, whether one assumes privilege exists or not. If that is all that is being suggested by the comic writer and others, then there seems no problem. Always thought there was something "more" implied but maybe not....
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Hello, everybody!
I am new to this forum and this is my first post.
I wanted to say that Ethan's letter to MMM is very inspirational to me. I am not this blog's target demographic (at least, as I perceive it) as I am currently unemployed because of mental health problems.
But, let me tell you that even my situation does not stop me from getting my life back on track, mustachian style. My husband and I are paying off our mortgage quickly and I am investing the rest of the money for our retirement. I started saving like a madwoman (no pun intended) since I got ill and discovered that it actually helps me get better because it creates peace in my life. That is my main motivation to stay on track. Financial stability creates a peace of mind and that is essential for people with mental health problems.
As I am trying to get back to work, Ethan's letter motivates me a lot. I saved it and I read it every day. It's not easy to find a job and keep a job if one has metal health issues, but I know I can do it.
Yeah, you! Woot!
You made my day, too!
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I wish people would be more compassionate. :<
What does that mean, exactly?
Let's pretend we have a young boy sitting here with us. He's from a very poor family. The family line has been poor for several generations so there is no "in-family" knowledge of any other way of life. Let's say he's 13 years old. His name might be Antoine, Bobby, or Carlos. Let's settle on (rolls dice here) on Antoine.
Antoine lives in the south side of Philly. If things don't change he'll end up poor, or dead from gang violence, or in prison.
SwordGuy says, "Hi Antoine. I'm SwordGuy. Here are all my friends from the MMM website. They are glad to meet you to."
Antoine says, "Hi."
SwordGuy says, "We just want you to know that we feel really badly about the situation you are in. It sucks to be poor and to live in a gang-infested neighborhood with bad schools."
Antoine says, "So what? Does that make you feel better about yourself? What's in it for me?"
Antoine is a bright fellow, you see. He's figured out that empathy for his situation, by itself, isn't worth a damn to him. He'll still be hungry. He'll still be poor. And he doesn't give a rat's behind that we'll feel better about ourselves for being such caring, compassionate, empathetic people. I don't blame him.
SwordGuy, being an honest and very direct fellow, says, "Well, you hit the nail on the head there, Antoine. But not to worry, we're waging a 'War on Poverty' this very minute. In fact, we've been doing so for 50 years! Things are bound to get better for you."
Antoine says, "50 years! You folks have been fighting a war on poverty for 50 years? When are you going to win it? I'm hungry when I go to bed. I'm only 13 years old and I'm already tired of being poor!"
"Well, not such good news for you there, Antoine," answers SwordGuy. "According to this Pew Research study (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/13/whos-poor-in-america-50-years-into-the-war-on-poverty-a-data-portrait/), the poverty rate in 1964 was 19% and in 2012 it was down to 15%. So, at that rate, you can sit on your ass awaiting victory and your family members will no longer be poor in another 200 years. Unless you're one of the lucky ones who get out of poverty at the front of the line. Tell me, Antoine, do you feel lucky?"
"FU and your friends! And your F'n empathy!" answers Antoine.
Antoine doesn't need platitudes. He doesn't need our empathy. He needs help because getting out of poverty is hard.
We can try to help him out as a group, by trying to get appropriations for needed programs to help him out, but that's a slow process that, frankly, hasn't been working very well. A 4% drop in poverty over a 50 year period is in no way a rousing success rate for this approach.
Since the War on Poverty sure as hell isn't getting the job done, he's going to need to plan to make it on his own while leveraging whatever help he can manage to find along the way.
And that's where we as individuals can help out.
We can set correct expectations, that it will take hard work, smart work, and time to get out of poverty.
We can supply knowledge that will ease the way in getting such institutional help as is available.
We can provide training.
We can provide employment.
We can loan tools or other resources.
We can teach the mindset of "Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!".
We can provide sample plans that can spark different ideas about how to improve their circumstances.
We can help organize folks to band together and help one another out.
And we can aggressively do all we can to squash the idea that the poor are helpless and can't make things better for themselves.
And educated on these fields. Social science has been researching and validating things like privilege, microaggressions, tokenism, and the glass escalator for years at this point. These are entry level concepts for people studying these fields or living these realities. Talking about them is not whining or anything like that and it's not up to debate whether they exist or not - they exist and we need to talk about these issues to fix them. It's several data driven fields of study.
Talk about them all you want. Study them all you want.
Shucks, that might even help someone someday - provided that absolutely nothing in that process includes the idea that the poor are just helpless pawns in life who are totally incapable of doing anything for themselves.
That's because teaching people that they are helpless when they are not is just plain evil.
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I wish people would be more compassionate. :<
What does that mean, exactly?
/Snip
And educated on these fields. Social science has been researching and validating things like privilege, microaggressions, tokenism, and the glass escalator for years at this point. These are entry level concepts for people studying these fields or living these realities. Talking about them is not whining or anything like that and it's not up to debate whether they exist or not - they exist and we need to talk about these issues to fix them. It's several data driven fields of study.
Talk about them all you want. Study them all you want.
Shucks, that might even help someone someday - provided that absolutely nothing in that process includes the idea that the poor are just helpless pawns in life who are totally incapable of doing anything for themselves.
That's because teaching people that they are helpless when they are not is just plain evil.
It's called a "culture of low expectations" down here. The privileged expect that people from low socioeconomic backgrounds dow not have the capability to better themselves... therefore apply unconscious bias when not selecting them for opportunities for advancement in education and work.
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Hey, guys!
I'm back with some great news - I got the job!!!
After a few years of not working because of my mental illness I am finally taking my life back on tracks.
This all happened after I've found this blogpost with Ethan's letter. It inspired me so much!!! It litteraly gave me the courage to go out there and get my life sorted out.
Nobody ever believed I could do it, but I did it. And I love what I do as well. I used all the tactics Ethan described. I even worked for free, just to prove myself that I can do it. And it payed off. I will get descent salary which will go directly to the mortgage payment.'
I have noticed that even I, years on the disability checks, am ahead of many of my colleagues with their living above their means. My mortgage is almost payed off and Ihave some savings on the side. It shocked me how the working people live so richely (multiple vacations, mortgage, 2 cars, takeouts for lunch,...) Hey, I can now join the "I overhead on work" thread ;-)
Anyway, I just wanted to share this and to thank Ethan again.
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Wow, I love to hear that! Congrats! Thanks for the one year update. :)
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That's great Nera! Really glad to hear you are doing well.