Author Topic: Outrageous Optimism  (Read 17456 times)

Forcus

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Outrageous Optimism
« on: October 03, 2012, 10:36:52 AM »
So I will admit I was born a pessimist and I may die one. I totally believe everything MMM is saying but just don't know how to get there. Any ideas?

arebelspy

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Osprey

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 12:05:59 PM »
Thanks for the book recommendation. Maybe most people are born optimistic but sink into learned pessimism. I wonder if Mr. MM doesn't have it backwards this time though. Here's my theory:
Good life experiences --> Optimism --> Good life experiences ...
Or is it a case of the chicken and the egg?

arebelspy

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 12:08:43 PM »
Good life experiences --> Optimism --> Good life experiences ...

Okay, so if you don't have step 1 there, force step 2, to lead to step 3.

Yes?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

totoro

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 12:20:48 PM »
I don't have a book but I may have learned optimism from my grandma.  She managed to focus on the best in everything even in negative circumstances.  I have a hard time being pessimistic, but I do sometimes worry too much.  I like the advice in the MMM blog from the seven habits: never worry about what you cannot control.  That one principle has done me a lot of good.

velocistar237

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 12:26:18 PM »
never worry about what you cannot control.

Reminds me of this post.

kisserofsinners

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 12:41:17 PM »
It is totally learned and takes time to build up a trach record of success. The first step for me was forcing myself to take a more active role in my life. I spent a few years whiney about how life was happening to me, until i fucking snapped. I got sick of my own whining and forced myself to take action. It was small and trivial at first, but over time my life has improved incrementally and then by leaps and bounds. I've never looked back, except to say, "well done, Monkey."

My wife is new to this game and she outright accuses my optimism is stupidity, but she just married my so it can't be all bad. :)

Good Luck.

unitsinc

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 12:52:19 PM »
I guess I've always been very optimistic.

My thought process is, when you're being negative, it helps absolutely nothing. It doesn't make you happy. It doesn't make you productive. It doesn't make those around you happy(or even want to continue to be around you.) It has no redeeming qualities that I can think of. So, why do something that is just about as good for you as say smoking a cigarette?

tooqk4u22

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 01:01:16 PM »
I have a hard time being pessimistic, but I do sometimes worry too much.  I like the advice in the MMM blog from the seven habits: never worry about what you cannot control.  That one principle has done me a lot of good.

This is interesting to me...on one hand I feel like I am a born pessimist as the OP indicated but everytime I think about why I am that way it relates more to worrying and preparing for the downside scenario.  However, I completely disagree - worrying about things you can't control is what matters, although I look at differently.......I don't worry about what I can't control, I worry about how the stuff I can't control can impact the things that are important to me.  To me it makes no sense to worry about the things you CAN control, because that is the point - you can control them so who cares.  The idea is to mitigate the risks related to things you can't control (i.e. I can't control if my house burns down, but I can minimize the potential causes and buy insurance....there risk mitigated, no worries - except for the family getting out in time - ah smoke detectors, exit plan, but not perfect mitigants.)

Many people view it as thinking negatively/being pessimistic, but I view it as being prepared. Obviouslly there are limits, but as look back it has worked. If I was a pure pessimist I wouldn't invest, I wouldn't have had the confidence to do well in my profession and ask for raises, I wouldn't have had the confidence that I could take care of a child (let alone three), and it goes on.

The biggest change for me in the pessimism/worry discussion was when I had kids as ensuring that they will always have their needs met is the #1 priority and thing I worry about, but because of preparing this not something I truly worry about because it will never happen - the worse case would be that I don't FIRE if something does happen.

So are there any others that are perceived as pessimists when they are really just peolpe that plan and prepare for things?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:04:58 PM by tooqk4u22 »

Jamesqf

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 01:16:09 PM »
If I was a pure pessimist I wouldn't invest...

True.  A real pessimist would stuff everything under the mattress, and sit up nights with a shotgun, guarding it.  But the pure optimist wouldn't save or invest, either.  S/he would go through life like Dicken's Mr. Micawber, firmly convinced that "something will turn up".

unitsinc

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 01:23:44 PM »
I have a hard time being pessimistic, but I do sometimes worry too much.  I like the advice in the MMM blog from the seven habits: never worry about what you cannot control.  That one principle has done me a lot of good.

This is interesting to me...on one hand I feel like I am a born pessimist as the OP indicated but everytime I think about why I am that way it relates more to worrying and preparing for the downside scenario.  However, I completely disagree - worrying about things you can't control is what matters, although I look at differently.......I don't worry about what I can't control, I worry about how the stuff I can't control can impact the things that are important to me.  To me it makes no sense to worry about the things you CAN control, because that is the point - you can control them so who cares.  The idea is to mitigate the risks related to things you can't control (i.e. I can't control if my house burns down, but I can minimize the potential causes and buy insurance....there risk mitigated, no worries - except for the family getting out in time - ah smoke detectors, exit plan, but not perfect mitigants.)

Many people view it as thinking negatively/being pessimistic, but I view it as being prepared. Obviouslly there are limits, but as look back it has worked. If I was a pure pessimist I wouldn't invest, I wouldn't have had the confidence to do well in my profession and ask for raises, I wouldn't have had the confidence that I could take care of a child (let alone three), and it goes on.

The biggest change for me in the pessimism/worry discussion was when I had kids as ensuring that they will always have their needs met is the #1 priority and thing I worry about, but because of preparing this not something I truly worry about because it will never happen - the worse case would be that I don't FIRE if something does happen.

So are there any others that are perceived as pessimists when they are really just peolpe that plan and prepare for things?

I guess the distinction comes in your mindset. If you prepare for possible negative outcomes while always seeming like a downer/doomsdayer, and expecting everything to go wrong, then that is detrimental in my opinion.

Where as if you prepare for possible negative things to occur while still fully enjoying the things going on in your life and not giving up hope, then that is an excellent mindset to have.

Most of my pessimistic friends tend to complain about everything and feel hopeless about their situation.

I believe there has to be a correlation between optimism/pessimism and your own level of confidence in yourself.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-superheroes/201009/mental-toughness

vwDavid

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 01:35:07 PM »
I must concede with the OP...I too understand and accept everything MMM said today- but my learned pessimism is SO strong that it has already negatively effected my mind and my health and my outlook on life...its really bad.

I just enrolled in a 25 week 12 step program to try to deal with it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:36:50 PM by vwDavid »

unitsinc

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 01:38:06 PM »
I must concede with the OP...I too understand and accept everything MMM said today- but my learned pessimism is SO strong that it has already negatively effected my mind and my health and my outlook on life...its really bad.

I just enrolled in a 25 week 12 step program to try to deal with it.

I'm sorry you've had such a poor outcome from everything, but I'm very happy to hear that you're taking steps to work on the issue. I wish you all the best.

If you think it may help, you could keep a journal here to document your progress and eventual recovery.

Jamesqf

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2012, 02:28:58 PM »
I believe there has to be a correlation between optimism/pessimism and your own level of confidence in yourself.

Even there, there's room for learning from experiences.  As for instance, I'm quite confident in my ability to do almost anything physical pretty well, or to learn science/engineering stuff as needed.  But after having spent quite a bit of time & money on lessons & practice. I'm pretty pessimistic about my musical talent - or maybe I should say I'm confident in my lack thereof :-)

unitsinc

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2012, 02:34:42 PM »
I believe there has to be a correlation between optimism/pessimism and your own level of confidence in yourself.

Even there, there's room for learning from experiences.  As for instance, I'm quite confident in my ability to do almost anything physical pretty well, or to learn science/engineering stuff as needed.  But after having spent quite a bit of time & money on lessons & practice. I'm pretty pessimistic about my musical talent - or maybe I should say I'm confident in my lack thereof :-)

Haha, I see your point, but it seems like music is just for fun in your life. Maybe if you depended on that for your bread and butter you could somehow use your optimistic outlook and turn your lack of skill into your selling point.

Posthumane

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 02:53:31 PM »
I don't think that thinking through possible negative outcomes and taking action is indicative of pessimism at all. On the contrary, I think these things will boost your confidence in your ability to handle those situations adequately, and will make you more optimistic about the outcome.

To use tooq's example of a house fire, a pessimist viewpoint might go like this:
"Man, my house might burn down and then what would I do? I'd be screwed. I'd have no house, no money, my family might die and I'd be alone and grieving. I can't believe scientists haven't come up with fireproof houses and give them out for free!"

A "realistic optimist" on the other hand might say something like this:
"Well, I bought this house, but it could burn down. I guess I should get some fire insurance for it, then at least if that did happen, I'd get money back from them to buy another house. Of course, my family might get killed. I guess what I should do then is install smoke alarms and have an evacuation plan, that way they're less likely to get hurt. Now that I think about it, a fire isn't the end of the world and we'd probably get through it with those measures in place."

Now, a "delirious optimist" might simply say: "That'll never happen to me, so why worry about it?"

One could point out that neither optimist is worry about things he can't control (i.e. whether his house accidentally catches fire) but the realistic optimist IS thinking about things he CAN control (i.e. his level of preparedness).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 02:55:24 PM by Posthumane »

totoro

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2012, 03:46:34 PM »
I like the wording "responsible optimism".   Preparing for the worst but always hoping and believing in the best.  Negative analysis paralysis is pretty stressful.  Not a good hobby to take up.

Jamesqf

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 10:37:48 PM »
The house fire example resonates with me, as I was in that situation not so long ago.  I live in northern Nevada, where wind-driven brush fires can move pretty fast, and burn large areas.  So I had about 15 minutes to load up the critters and check on the neighbors before heading out, with spot fires in the fields to either side.  Stayed with friends for a couple of days, not knowing whether my house was one of those that burned, and they couldn't understand why I wasn't worrying my head off about the place, when it's just stuff, and insured.

kisserofsinners

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 10:30:17 AM »
I don't think that thinking through possible negative outcomes and taking action is indicative of pessimism at all. On the contrary, I think these things will boost your confidence in your ability to handle those situations adequately, and will make you more optimistic about the outcome.

To use tooq's example of a house fire, a pessimist viewpoint might go like this:
"Man, my house might burn down and then what would I do? I'd be screwed. I'd have no house, no money, my family might die and I'd be alone and grieving. I can't believe scientists haven't come up with fireproof houses and give them out for free!"

A "realistic optimist" on the other hand might say something like this:
"Well, I bought this house, but it could burn down. I guess I should get some fire insurance for it, then at least if that did happen, I'd get money back from them to buy another house. Of course, my family might get killed. I guess what I should do then is install smoke alarms and have an evacuation plan, that way they're less likely to get hurt. Now that I think about it, a fire isn't the end of the world and we'd probably get through it with those measures in place."

Now, a "delirious optimist" might simply say: "That'll never happen to me, so why worry about it?"

One could point out that neither optimist is worry about things he can't control (i.e. whether his house accidentally catches fire) but the realistic optimist IS thinking about things he CAN control (i.e. his level of preparedness).

I just submitted this to the wife as proof i'm not outright stupid. ...Interestingly enough, i just setup an emergency plan 7 months ago for us and our neighbor friends. We live in earthquake country.

Jamesqf

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 12:57:41 PM »
Yeah, I see two different ways of thinking here.  One is the Panglossian optimist who has convinced himself that only good things are going to happen, because all things are for the best in this best of all possible worlds.  The other, being more of a realist, accepts that bad things will happen, is prepared for them, and is ready to work through whatever happens.

Osprey

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2012, 01:41:19 PM »
Good life experiences --> Optimism --> Good life experiences ...

Okay, so if you don't have step 1 there, force step 2, to lead to step 3.

Yes?

YES! Force all the optimism! I found that just by reading MMM and YMOYL I became more optimistic, responsible and self-directed, without even trying.

happy

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 05:27:01 PM »
Reforming pessimist here. Try all means to become more optimistic.

If you're a true pessimist its not likely you'll ever end up completely unrealistically optimistic....


kkbmustang

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 06:02:04 PM »
I tend towards optimism. The Hubs tends toward pessimism. I guess you could say we balance each other out.

Forcus

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2012, 10:44:49 AM »
If you're a true pessimist its not likely you'll ever end up completely unrealistically optimistic....

Well there you go.. now I'm pessimistic about ever becoming optimistic .. lol

tooqk4u22

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2012, 10:46:01 AM »
If you're a true pessimist its not likely you'll ever end up completely unrealistically optimistic....

Well there you go.. now I'm pessimistic about ever becoming optimistic .. lol

LMAO. 

simonsez

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 11:22:58 AM »
I grew up as neither or maybe I was a certain way but I never philosophized about it but higher education made me an optimist.  I got really into Gary Becker and utility theory in economics as it relates to consumer actions and finances.  i.e. a key concept was that in maximizing utility when dealing with positive and negative outcomes, rational actors will separate positives while lumping negatives.  The theory is obviously debatable but this allows a viewpoint of many positives and just a singular (or least a mitigated #) negative, thus a pleasurable life.  That is much easier said than done and it does require practice but now I find myself breaking down a positive event into so many pieces and analyzing all the good for as long as I can (not taking my life for granted and all of its awesome components is a big one) while enduring a negative event and just rolling with the punches and getting over it.  It's become second nature to also immediately identify silver linings.  Very good tool for dealing with the wife, co-workers, parents, friends, (anyone really) and helping them cope with a negative situation and seeing the best to improve their mood.

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 12:43:33 AM »
Check out the book Learned Optimism: http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-Mind/dp/0671019112

I've just finished this book on Saturday (thanks for the recommendation!) and I can't recommend it enough. It turned out to be exactly the kind of a book I love reading: 2 out of 3 main sections are devoted to analyzing the optimism vs pessimism situation and goes through great pains to explain exactly why optimism is the better choice. But it does highlight the pessimisms' advantages too. Only the last section of the book is dedicated to learning optimism.

Quite a lot of the book is focused on optimism in children, so it's a good read for already optimistic parents.

Again thank you for the book recommendation!

arebelspy

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 12:57:08 AM »
No problem.  Glad you enjoyed it!  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2012, 09:27:59 AM »
I'm reminded of what my dad always told me - "You are who you hang out with" (he was trying to influence a teenager).
But he had a point.  I have a tendency to be pessemistic, but have inadvertently surrounded myself with optimists.  It rubs off - has definitely helped me to maintain and enhance an optimistic outlook on life.  I think this has been a key part of striving towards FI.

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:27 PM »
Somebody mentioned Voltaire's Pangloss, and I want to point out is that Pangloss wasn't optimistic in the way most poeple mean it nowadays-- he did not _assume_ good things would happen to him. He just accepted that whatever happened, it was for the best. He went to the gallows content in the knowledge that all was for the best in the best of possible worlds. That is a curious, happy sort of fatalism, I should think, but not strictly what most would consider optimism.

I have to admit, I am not much of an optimist, and maybe I misunderstand the entire concept. In the glass half-full, half-empty analogy, that implies the optimist is able to focus on the bright side of a situation rather than its drawbacks... so perhaps that's what  Pangloss is doing, and the coloquial definition of optimism in that an optimist is someone who expects good things to happen is flawed. Is it that the optimist does not expect good things to happen, but takes the good that which does? That sounds more Stoic than anything.

Pessimism (in the cooquilal sense) has actually been linked in some studies to increased happiness -- if you always expect things to turn out worse than they in fact do, you're always plesantly surprized. I suppose the key is to not sink too far into pessimism that you are not able to capitalize on the good because you're too busy doubting?

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2013, 06:19:51 PM »
No problem.  Glad you enjoyed it!  :)

I had to add it to my list of books to read.  I think I saw on here that someone mentioned The Antidote, which looked similar.

velocistar237

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2013, 01:18:23 PM »
Check out the book Learned Optimism

Just got it and took the test. Turns out I'm very pessimistic. No worries; it's temporary, specific, and not a true reflection of myself.

Gerard

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Re: Outrageous Optimism
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2013, 11:02:36 AM »
I'm reminded of what my dad always told me - "You are who you hang out with" (he was trying to influence a teenager).

My ex is a teacher, and she says one of the most useful pieces of advice she was given when she started was "Don't hang out in the staff room." That's where all the whiners and pessimists spend their day rehearsing their grievances. Since hearing that, I've noticed the same thing in a couple of the places that I've worked. It's like you have to study the geography of gloom.