Author Topic: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus  (Read 8500 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« on: March 04, 2020, 08:02:00 PM »
I would've thought MMM had learned his lesson after Tweeting about how more people die in car accidents than from the Coronavirus, and getting a firm rebuke against trying to compare apples and oranges.  He even responded -
Quote
You are right and I am being sloppy here - they are totally different phenomena with different math.

But I still wanted to take the opportunity to highlight that car culture should be viewed as a global emergency. Even while we take big precautions against novel viruses as well.

So why then double down a week later with an article that includes a statement like
Quote
Even scarier: every year, about 2.8 million people die in the US alone, and a full 70% of these deaths (over two million people per year) are caused by “lifestyle factors”, which to put it plainly means ignoring Mr. Money Mustache’s advice about bikes, barbells and salads every day.

So if we start with the common flu, which is surprisingly scary, choosing car-based transportation and TV-based entertainment and consuming processed high-carbohydrate food and soft drinks should feel at least an additional hundred times scarier than that.

I understand that MMM has an agenda to get people to drive and consume less, but using the Coronavirus as a catalyst to make his point is really tone deaf and could backfire spectacularly.  The virus could likely continue to spread in an exponential manner, whereas our car culture is what it is and I hardly see his poorly reasoned argument looking any smarter or changing any minds if Covid-19 becomes a pandemic and/or causes a Recession.  Hopefully scientists will learn more and discover more effective ways to slow the spread or counteract the symptoms, but comparing this rapidly evolving economic and social situation to being 'unMustachian' is again comparing apples and oranges.

Last but not least, the article ends with the following advice (in addition to the obvious one, hand-washing):

1.  Continue the usual program of living a healthy life. Just the incredibly simple steps of cutting cars, sugar and television out of your life as much as possible will virtually eliminate the 70% fatality risk factor of being inactive and unfit – and yet only a tiny percentage of people – even those lucky enough to still have fully able bodies – actually follow this advice. On top of that, this strategy will also greatly boost your immunity to Covid-19, and decrease your chance of serious illness or death if you do catch it.

2.  Don’t try to out-guess the stock market. Just celebrate the fact that we have a temporary sale on stocks. While the endless stream of meaningless market commentary every day means absolutely nothing, one fact remains indisputable: stocks you buy today at a 15% discount from their peak, will be 15% more profitable for you over your lifetime.

It's nice to have confidence / ignorance about your risk if exposed to Covid-19, but healthy people have died after contracting the virus.  It's better to be young and healthy than not, but let's not consider a healthy lifestyle to be a vaccine.  Certainly more data is headed our way in the coming weeks.

It's reassuring that stocks have always gone on to new record highs, but the timeline is uncertain.  A 15% discount on stocks is not like a 15% discount on a $20 bill.  There is a lot of talk that earnings will be depressed by the economic disruption caused by the virus, and we do not yet know how widespread or long-lasting the effects will be.  The 15% discount could become a 45% discount and/or could remain a discount for months or years.

Not trying to cause fear or panic, but I would've hoped MMM had read the Twitter responses and just avoided this post altogether.

LifeHappens

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7968
  • Location: SnowBirdLand
  • Downshifting from 5th to 3rd Gear
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2020, 08:46:26 AM »
Beyond the basics (eat vegetables and exercise) MMM's advice on health has ALWAYS been tone deaf. It is glaringly obvious he's never had more than a sniffle in his life and thinks lifestyle choices prevent all illness. He's good at lots of things. Health care advice is not one of them.

Aunt Petunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1127
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2020, 02:47:54 PM »
Hey, the article reminded me to check mortgage rates again and I actually applied for a refinance today. I am qualified to get a 15 year at 3.25 with no closing costs.

He neglected to mention that many more people are thought to have had mild cases that were missed at first, which means the virus is much less deadly than originally thought.


Garrett B.

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 237
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2020, 04:51:23 PM »
I thought this was an odd blog post. If I wanted medical info on coronavirus I could have googled that myself. Not what I'd expect from MMM.

Aunt Petunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1127
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2020, 05:41:19 PM »
I thought this was an odd blog post. If I wanted medical info on coronavirus I could have googled that myself. Not what I'd expect from MMM.

Collins and Millennial Revolution did posts on it before him. It’s difficult to avoid in the news and on social media too. I think the main point was to remind everyone not to panic.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6502
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2020, 08:31:39 PM »
I haven’t read the blog post so I can’t comment on the tone deafness or not. Certainly that is possible.

I do agree with the broader point that humans are really bad at putting risks into perspective. Any pregnant woman has probably lived this at some point. I was reading earlier today that the last flu season hit something like 45 million people in the US, hospitalized 800k, and had tens of thousands of deaths. Yet I didn’t hear anything about it in the news and we have to urge people to get their vaccinations each year.

Yes, there is the unknown component that adds fear because it makes it harder to quantify the risk. But even still, if we all reacted with as much concern to known and proven risks out there then life would be a whole lot different than it is today. The truth is that we see new threats as scarier than the familiar ones.

Missy B

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2020, 12:26:28 AM »
At this point I'm glad to see anyone calling for calm, pointing out irrational behaviour, and advising people to focus on the things they can control.
MMM is going to write about  stuff he thinks is important. He is not doing focus groups to see if people want to read his opinion about a particular topic, nor is he going to harvest twitter responses in advance and back away from a topic if a lot of people don't agree with him. He is not that guy. If he was that guy, this would be a very different blog.
There seems to be more and more criticism of MMM as insensitive, tone-deaf, or mean. I find his tone and blogger 'voice' to be remarkably consistent over the years, so I wonder where these expectations are coming from. Newer people perhaps? It feels to me like there is an expectation that MMM should shift what he does to conform to other people's expectations, at least a little bit. Again, wrong guy.

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2020, 05:19:58 AM »
At this point I'm glad to see anyone calling for calm, pointing out irrational behaviour, and advising people to focus on the things they can control.
MMM is going to write about  stuff he thinks is important. He is not doing focus groups to see if people want to read his opinion about a particular topic, nor is he going to harvest twitter responses in advance and back away from a topic if a lot of people don't agree with him. He is not that guy. If he was that guy, this would be a very different blog.
There seems to be more and more criticism of MMM as insensitive, tone-deaf, or mean. I find his tone and blogger 'voice' to be remarkably consistent over the years, so I wonder where these expectations are coming from. Newer people perhaps? It feels to me like there is an expectation that MMM should shift what he does to conform to other people's expectations, at least a little bit. Again, wrong guy.

+1

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2020, 07:00:20 AM »
That's why I like this 'continue the blog conversation', I personally think the post made MMM sound like the crazy uncle - "if people just ate healthy, exercised, and stopped driving then we wouldn't have to worry about this coronavirus".  But I like to hear from the people that got something positive out of it.

thorto0803

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2020, 07:10:37 AM »
I guess MMM's new MO is to moderate out any comment that doesn't conform with his agenda and view. Over the past few days I've tried to post comments on the actual blog article twice and both have vanished, not making it to the comment section. So much for free speech and calling out bullshit. I guess that is only true if you agree with MMM's opinions. Given every reputable health organization in existence is saying that a society with 0 response to COVID-19 would certainly have its health systems overrun with serious cases, it's quite disingenuous of MMM to leave the post as it was originally and bury his head in the sand, pretending this isn't the biggest global health crisis in decades. 

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2020, 08:12:49 AM »
I guess MMM's new MO is to moderate out any comment that doesn't conform with his agenda and view. Over the past few days I've tried to post comments on the actual blog article twice and both have vanished, not making it to the comment section. So much for free speech and calling out bullshit. I guess that is only true if you agree with MMM's opinions. Given every reputable health organization in existence is saying that a society with 0 response to COVID-19 would certainly have its health systems overrun with serious cases, it's quite disingenuous of MMM to leave the post as it was originally and bury his head in the sand, pretending this isn't the biggest global health crisis in decades.

I think Pete is somewhat upfront that he moderates comments on his blog.  He'll let a few dissenting opinions through in order to comment on them, but he likes to keep his blog 'on message'.  The forum is a better place to have a frank discussion, as long as it is constructive and does not just attack the individual.  As for his blog post, I he doesn't arbitrarily take it down and act like it never happened.  The right thing, given the evolving situation, would be to amend his thoughts if they begin to change.  He has done this with other outdated posts.

projekt

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 323
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2020, 10:21:03 PM »
I haven’t read the blog post so I can’t comment on the tone deafness or not. Certainly that is possible.

I do agree with the broader point that humans are really bad at putting risks into perspective. Any pregnant woman has probably lived this at some point. I was reading earlier today that the last flu season hit something like 45 million people in the US, hospitalized 800k, and had tens of thousands of deaths. Yet I didn’t hear anything about it in the news and we have to urge people to get their vaccinations each year.

Yes, there is the unknown component that adds fear because it makes it harder to quantify the risk. But even still, if we all reacted with as much concern to known and proven risks out there then life would be a whole lot different than it is today. The truth is that we see new threats as scarier than the familiar ones.

Here's a good CDC article on the influenza burden of the 2018-2019 year. It's fun to crunch the numbers. In the course of about 4 months every year we see a large number of infections. Actually, we don't see them because they are estimated - people who aren't going to the doctor. But it's all in the model. Some of them get hospitalized. Some eventually die. The interesting thing is that old people don't get sick as often as younger people. (Table 2). But they go to the hospital and/or die much more when they do.  That acquired immunity from either repeated exposure as younger people or from vaccine is very important. Since 65+ made up roughly 25,000 (75%) of the deaths, if their infection rate were the same as the 18-49 group then there would be 50,000 more deaths.

I think this is why Italy is out of control. These old/sick people who usually get flu shots and may have prior immunity anyway are getting sick with coronavirus.

El_Viajero

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 205
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2020, 06:40:50 AM »
In light of the developments with COVID-19 over the last few days, the latest MMM post rings particularly hollow. Might it even be irresponsible to leave it up without issuing some kind of apology or revising it in some way? I'm not necessarily saying MMM should do that; I'm just saying it might be prudent.

At this point, I think we've all realized this virus isn't just the equivalent of another flu strain or a new H1N1-type epidemic. The pictures MMM posted of a fully-stocked Whole Foods produce section and people happily guzzling beers at the local haunt no longer reflect reality. At my local grocery store, the produce section is practically empty. Nobody with any sense is congregating at bars, and many of them have closed.

I'll admit that until 10 days or so ago, I also thought this was kind of a "new flu" and that the whole of society seemed to be overreacting. I was mistaken, and I'm willing to eat crow. Should MMM do the same?

I will note that he's right about this being a good stock buying opportunity. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out! But when it comes to how we should react during a global pandemic, perhaps a personal finance blogger's best move is to humbly acknowledge a lack of expertise and resist the urge to publicly opine.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 06:51:06 AM by El_Viajero »

thorto0803

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2020, 07:16:41 AM »
In light of the developments with COVID-19 over the last few days, the latest MMM post rings particularly hollow. Might it even be irresponsible to leave it up without issuing some kind of apology or revising it in some way? I'm not necessarily saying MMM should do that; I'm just saying it might be prudent.

At this point, I think we've all realized this virus isn't just the equivalent of another flu strain or a new H1N1-type epidemic. The pictures MMM posted of a fully-stocked Whole Foods produce section and people happily guzzling beers at the local haunt no longer reflect reality. At my local grocery store, the produce section is practically empty. Nobody with any sense is congregating at bars, and many of them have closed.

I'll admit that until 10 days or so ago, I also thought this was kind of a "new flu" and that the whole of society seemed to be overreacting. I was mistaken, and I'm willing to eat crow. Should MMM do the same?

I will note that he's right about this being a good stock buying opportunity. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out! But when it comes to how we should react during a global pandemic, perhaps a personal finance blogger's best move is to humbly acknowledge a lack of expertise and resist the urge to publicly opine.

100% agree. MMM needs to revise this article. His 2 week old views are now more dangerous due to giving a false sense that this will most likely all blow over. This could lead to many people disregarding recommendations from the CDC and government authorities about how to slow the spread. He even noted in the article that we should listen to scientists not the media. Well now, everyone is saying the same thing. This is the real deal and our best chance of slowing it is to act now.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2020, 01:08:02 PM »
Another moron who thinks he's a pandemic and healthcare expert, telling us the CDC and WHO experts are wrong, actually.

Pete has a lot of "my way of living is the best, everyone else sucks" type of posts.  It's really off-putting.  And now with covid-19, he's being made to look like a fool.  He should stay in his lane.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 01:11:27 PM by DarkandStormy »

thorto0803

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2020, 11:37:42 AM »
Another moron who thinks he's a pandemic and healthcare expert, telling us the CDC and WHO experts are wrong, actually.

Pete has a lot of "my way of living is the best, everyone else sucks" type of posts.  It's really off-putting.  And now with covid-19, he's being to look like a fool.  He should stay in his lane.

Exactly. Comparing death by virus to death by lifestyle factors is apples to oranges. Humans are much more sensitive to unexpected/sudden death than slow health deterioration. Also, heart disease, cancer and the like are always going to be high killers, because a big part of that is just aging. If I had to choose between them, I'd much rather lose a parent/grandparent to cancer or heart disease than to a virus that shows up out of nowhere and kills them within 10 days.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6696
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2020, 12:53:58 PM »
I think some of y'all got butthurt by Pete's blog entry when you shouldn't have.

He was very careful in what he said in this blog.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 01:27:53 PM »
I think some of y'all got butthurt by Pete's blog entry when you shouldn't have.

He was very careful in what he said in this blog.

Butthurt?  Please explain what that means and why you think that?  Do you think everything he said in his blog post is accurate?  Like I have said, I'm interested in differences of opinion, but calling people 'butthurt' sounds offensive (or silly, given the seriousness of the economic and health consequences of this pandemic, I'm not really sure).

Tegus

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2020, 01:14:03 PM »
This post really did not age well. I'm now embarrassed I sent it to some family members. It should be revised or removed.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 11:25:29 AM »
Just in case people are still reading Pete's post and are taking social distancing lightly -

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/dj-conrad-buchanan-coronavirus-death/index.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/490771-chris-cuomo-reveals-coronavirus-symptoms-fever-shivering-hallucinations

Being young and healthy is not a 'get out of jail free' pass.

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 11:59:02 AM »
Just in case people are still reading Pete's post and are taking social distancing lightly -

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/dj-conrad-buchanan-coronavirus-death/index.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/490771-chris-cuomo-reveals-coronavirus-symptoms-fever-shivering-hallucinations

Being young and healthy is not a 'get out of jail free' pass.

FIRE podcaster Paula Pant has tested positive for it as well. She was posting daily updates on Twitter - a straight week of 103+ temperature doesn't sound fun, on top of uncontrollable coughing.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2020, 02:18:02 PM »
@DadJokes Thanks for the update.  Paula was a headliner at the one FINcon I attended (in Dallas) - the very definition of young and healthy!

FIRE Artist

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 694
  • Location: YEG
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2020, 03:19:33 AM »
A 34 year old died in my province of this for the sin of having asthma. 

MMM’s posts on COVID-19 have been eye roll worthy at best. I stopped reading around his “statistical analysis” (I work in healthcare and have my fill of real, relevant statistics on the daily now), but somehow doubt he even touched on the fact that long term impacts are unknown but expected to be significant for those who were ventilated for this. Good fucking luck hopping back on a bike after that. 


verfrugal

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Location: Vermont
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2020, 06:44:59 PM »
I think those calling MMMs post “tone deaf” are “word blind”.  What was actually written is not the problem, they are bothered that the post was not sufficiently morbid, scary or “serious” to match their own mental state.  A stream of corona-porn news is not enough, all must genuflect to the threat which is so grave it must define all our actions — for it is the one true thing by which we can judge our behavior and the behavior of others as truly right, or wrong.

I think one can have a sound scientific, medical and epidemiological undertsanding of the extent of this pandemic and still conclude that humanity will come out the other side, that lifestyle and other health factors are still threats that will impact us beyond the timeline of this acute threat, and that we can and should continue to live life thankful and happy until this virus or any of the other threats inevitably cut us down.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2020, 07:49:31 PM »
I think those calling MMMs post “tone deaf” are “word blind”.  What was actually written is not the problem, they are bothered that the post was not sufficiently morbid, scary or “serious” to match their own mental state.  A stream of corona-porn news is not enough, all must genuflect to the threat which is so grave it must define all our actions — for it is the one true thing by which we can judge our behavior and the behavior of others as truly right, or wrong.

I think one can have a sound scientific, medical and epidemiological undertsanding of the extent of this pandemic and still conclude that humanity will come out the other side, that lifestyle and other health factors are still threats that will impact us beyond the timeline of this acute threat, and that we can and should continue to live life thankful and happy until this virus or any of the other threats inevitably cut us down.

I can only speak for myself, but I would have preferred the post having not been made over a post weighing in on something he knows nothing about and comparing it to his favorite hobby horses of how not riding bikes is killing people.  Pete is very good at making the typical US lifestyle sound unappealing and clownish, which is great when life is normal and folks need to be shaken out of complacency, but now is not the time.  Anyway, the post (and my critisim made a month ago) has been up long enough now that reality has caught up and overtaken it.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2020, 11:18:35 AM »
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2020/04/02/no-you-didnt-just-lose-half-of-your-retirement-savings/

Pretty clear to me in Pete's follow-up from a couple weeks ago that he lives in a privileged bubble.

Quote
On the human side, we have seen a death toll of thousands of people per day in the US alone with best-case forecasts of 200,000 by the time things calm down, which implies several million worldwide.

And so far, we have not been performing like a best-case country so these numbers will probably be higher.

But...you told us in your original post that this was basically the flu.

Quote
It makes sense that many people are fearful and pessimistic. So why is it that I remain as optimistic as ever, with the full expectation that you and I will come through this humbled but also wiser and better than ever?

It’s because I already know how this all ends.

Ah yes, the usual smugness we all know.  Pete knows all (as long as you ignore his original moronic post on the coronavirus pandemic in March).

Quote
So How Does This Affect my Retirement?

Once you really get the big picture above, you can see that we are going to come through this better in every way.

He presents a few anecdotes prior to making this statement.  No comment on the record millions of people who are now out of a job, in most cases due to the government shutting businesses down in many states.  No comment on the fragility of our healthcare systems.  No comment on folks living precariously close to the edge because our country ties healthcare to employment status.  Just, "people are driving less = clean air and look! kids are walking with their parents.  Fun!"

Quote
Are things a bit hard right now?

GOOD.

Probably one of the most privileged, smug takes you can find on the internet about covid-19.

grantmeaname

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4927
  • Age: 27
  • Location: NYC
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2020, 11:59:57 AM »
*Clutches pearls*
*Faints*

Why does one internet stranger's opinion so profoundly affect your personal happiness? He's taken up residence in your brain rent free!

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2020, 01:26:44 PM »
*Clutches pearls*
*Faints*

Why does one internet stranger's opinion so profoundly affect your personal happiness? He's taken up residence in your brain rent free!

Yes, I immediately came here to post about his follow-up blog post...*checks notes*...13 days after he published it.  You got me!

Thanks for ignoring any and all substance in this thread! Wonderful contributions to the forum!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 10:16:12 AM by DarkandStormy »

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2020, 02:01:17 PM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

grantmeaname

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4927
  • Age: 27
  • Location: NYC
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2020, 02:53:38 PM »
The sunny tone is a bit out of place compared to how most of the media is covering it. But for many of us in stable desk jobs, there are no permanent, direct impacts from the crisis, just a lot of minor discomfort as we are inconvenienced a little bit, and a reminder that things aren't objectively as terrible as the news narrative is a helpful thing.

Given that he's not 1) belittling the sacrifices by the people who don't match that description, or 2) encouraging people to do anything destructive to society's containment efforts, like go spring breaking or hold meetups, it's hard for me to see what the direct harm from the post is.

I just don't see why it's worth climbing up onto the internet soapbox that his feelings are different than your feelings. So?

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2020, 10:17:49 AM »
The sunny tone is a bit out of place compared to how most of the media is covering it. But for many of us in stable desk jobs, there are no permanent, direct impacts from the crisis, just a lot of minor discomfort as we are inconvenienced a little bit, and a reminder that things aren't objectively as terrible as the news narrative is a helpful thing.

There is the exact privileged bubble I'm talking about.  Unemployment is nearly 20%.  Do you guys care at all about your neighbors, friends, etc. or is it "meh, I've got my job and my money so it's not too bad?"
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:42:46 PM by DarkandStormy »

grantmeaname

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4927
  • Age: 27
  • Location: NYC
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2020, 01:29:17 PM »
I'm aware. My wife is one of those 20%.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2020, 02:48:32 PM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

Kind of missing the point.

Pete downplayed the threat of the virus from the start, getting all covid-19 truther on us and trying to compare it to rates of death of other diseases.

Then, once he got caught with his pants down, he pivoted to "it's not bad, I know how this plays out," during a global pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years (and the world is very different today than it was in 1918).  "We're going to come through this better in every way."  Like wtf?  That is an asinine take when over 30k Americans are DEAD.  Thousands of families couldn't be there for loved ones when they died, couldn't hold funerals.  Life will fundamentally change post-coronavirus.  It's not all going to be *better.*

Of course, that's about all he can pivot to since he published one of the dumbest initial takes on the internet.  And yet, the cultists still eat it up.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 08:33:57 AM by DarkandStormy »

Scandium

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2317
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2020, 03:00:29 PM »
I think those calling MMMs post “tone deaf” are “word blind”.  What was actually written is not the problem, they are bothered that the post was not sufficiently morbid, scary or “serious” to match their own mental state.  A stream of corona-porn news is not enough, all must genuflect to the threat which is so grave it must define all our actions — for it is the one true thing by which we can judge our behavior and the behavior of others as truly right, or wrong.

I think one can have a sound scientific, medical and epidemiological undertsanding of the extent of this pandemic and still conclude that humanity will come out the other side, that lifestyle and other health factors are still threats that will impact us beyond the timeline of this acute threat, and that we can and should continue to live life thankful and happy until this virus or any of the other threats inevitably cut us down.
Wow, this might be the most absurd strawmanning I've seen in quite a while! Wanna say anything more about what people are"really" thinking..?

Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1685
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2020, 02:11:37 AM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

Kind of missing the point.

Pete downplayed the threat of the virus from the state, getting all covid-19 truther on us and trying to compare it to rates of death of other diseases.

Then, once he got caught with is pants down, he pivoted to "it's not bad, I know how this plays out," during a global pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years (and the world is very different today than it was in 1918).  "We're going to come through this better in every way."  Like wtf?  That is an asinine take when over 30k Americans are DEAD.  Thousands of families couldn't be there for loved ones when they died, couldn't hold funerals.  Life will fundamentally change post-coronavirus.  It's not all going to be *better.*

Of course, that's about all he can pivot to since he published one of the dumbest initial takes on the internet.  And yet, the cultists still eat it up.

I can't speak for the American experience, but in my country only 65 people have died, which is fewer than in a typical flu season. I don't see life fundamentally changing at all. We're about 4 weeks away from dispensing with some of the social exclusion measures and after that we will slowly resume normality.

A lot of things will be worse and a fair few things will be better.



DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2020, 08:37:31 AM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

Kind of missing the point.

Pete downplayed the threat of the virus from the state, getting all covid-19 truther on us and trying to compare it to rates of death of other diseases.

Then, once he got caught with is pants down, he pivoted to "it's not bad, I know how this plays out," during a global pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years (and the world is very different today than it was in 1918).  "We're going to come through this better in every way."  Like wtf?  That is an asinine take when over 30k Americans are DEAD.  Thousands of families couldn't be there for loved ones when they died, couldn't hold funerals.  Life will fundamentally change post-coronavirus.  It's not all going to be *better.*

Of course, that's about all he can pivot to since he published one of the dumbest initial takes on the internet.  And yet, the cultists still eat it up.

I can't speak for the American experience, but in my country only 65 people have died, which is fewer than in a typical flu season. I don't see life fundamentally changing at all. We're about 4 weeks away from dispensing with some of the social exclusion measures and after that we will slowly resume normality.

A lot of things will be worse and a fair few things will be better.

Here's the thing - all it takes is one, fairly large country to completely eff this up (which Pete says is the U.S. and I agree) and start the exponential spread all over again if/when we re-open international travel to pre-covid levels.  So while Australia may have gotten this under control, are you going to trust the thousands of international citizens coming into your country?  Because if *they* didn't get it under control in their countries, there is a decent chance they will come there and start spreading it again.  Unless you guys have covid-19 tests set up for travelers coming into your country or something.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6696
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2020, 08:41:24 AM »
Golly folks.  Pete has been writing strong opinions since 2012?  2011?   8 or 9 years?

And OMFG!!!!   He was WRONG on something.     

Golly Whillickers!    WRONG!   Who would have thought that someone could be wrong at least once in an 8-9 year time period?

Really, get over it.



Bloop Bloop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1685
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2020, 09:19:31 AM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

Kind of missing the point.

Pete downplayed the threat of the virus from the state, getting all covid-19 truther on us and trying to compare it to rates of death of other diseases.

Then, once he got caught with is pants down, he pivoted to "it's not bad, I know how this plays out," during a global pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years (and the world is very different today than it was in 1918).  "We're going to come through this better in every way."  Like wtf?  That is an asinine take when over 30k Americans are DEAD.  Thousands of families couldn't be there for loved ones when they died, couldn't hold funerals.  Life will fundamentally change post-coronavirus.  It's not all going to be *better.*

Of course, that's about all he can pivot to since he published one of the dumbest initial takes on the internet.  And yet, the cultists still eat it up.

I can't speak for the American experience, but in my country only 65 people have died, which is fewer than in a typical flu season. I don't see life fundamentally changing at all. We're about 4 weeks away from dispensing with some of the social exclusion measures and after that we will slowly resume normality.

A lot of things will be worse and a fair few things will be better.

Here's the thing - all it takes is one, fairly large country to completely eff this up (which Pete says is the U.S. and I agree) and start the exponential spread all over again if/when we re-open international travel to pre-covid levels.  So while Australia may have gotten this under control, are you going to trust the thousands of international citizens coming into your country?  Because if *they* didn't get it under control in their countries, there is a decent chance they will come there and start spreading it again.  Unless you guys have covid-19 tests set up for travelers coming into your country or something.

We will have to keep international travel banned for a while. I'm not fussed about that. I just want businesses (local ones, like restaurants) to open again so that people can get back to work and the tax/welfare bill won't soar to sky high levels that later have to be paid off.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2020, 10:01:48 AM »
Golly folks.  Pete has been writing strong opinions since 2012?  2011?   8 or 9 years?

And OMFG!!!!   He was WRONG on something.     

Golly Whillickers!    WRONG!   Who would have thought that someone could be wrong at least once in an 8-9 year time period?

Really, get over it.

Even worse than the people pointing out Pete has bad takes for which he never issues corrections are the cultists who feel the need to post nothing of substance, pointing out Pete has opinions or "why are you upset that Pete posted his opinion?"  Either engage in the substance of the discussion or stop posting, Jesus.

grantmeaname

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4927
  • Age: 27
  • Location: NYC
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2020, 10:17:20 AM »
I engaged and you shot me a false ad hominem and moved on. To reiterate, if my mental state cannot directly harm you, and Pete is not advocating that I take any actions that transmit the disease or otherwise harm public health efforts, then how does Pete asking me to change my mental state harm you?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 10:23:35 AM by grantmeaname »

Scandium

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2317
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2020, 10:50:19 AM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

Kind of missing the point.

Pete downplayed the threat of the virus from the state, getting all covid-19 truther on us and trying to compare it to rates of death of other diseases.

Then, once he got caught with is pants down, he pivoted to "it's not bad, I know how this plays out," during a global pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years (and the world is very different today than it was in 1918).  "We're going to come through this better in every way."  Like wtf?  That is an asinine take when over 30k Americans are DEAD.  Thousands of families couldn't be there for loved ones when they died, couldn't hold funerals.  Life will fundamentally change post-coronavirus.  It's not all going to be *better.*

Of course, that's about all he can pivot to since he published one of the dumbest initial takes on the internet.  And yet, the cultists still eat it up.

I can't speak for the American experience, but in my country only 65 people have died, which is fewer than in a typical flu season. I don't see life fundamentally changing at all. We're about 4 weeks away from dispensing with some of the social exclusion measures and after that we will slowly resume normality.

A lot of things will be worse and a fair few things will be better.
"they did all these drastic measures,and only a few people got sick. So hey you guys that proves we didn't need the drastic measures!"
*Palm-to-face

OtherJen

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2881
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2020, 11:02:58 AM »
Pete has posted about stoicism and outrageous optimism in the past, and you're upset that his recent post espouses stoicism and outrageous optimism?

Kind of missing the point.

Pete downplayed the threat of the virus from the state, getting all covid-19 truther on us and trying to compare it to rates of death of other diseases.

Then, once he got caught with is pants down, he pivoted to "it's not bad, I know how this plays out," during a global pandemic, the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years (and the world is very different today than it was in 1918).  "We're going to come through this better in every way."  Like wtf?  That is an asinine take when over 30k Americans are DEAD.  Thousands of families couldn't be there for loved ones when they died, couldn't hold funerals.  Life will fundamentally change post-coronavirus.  It's not all going to be *better.*

Of course, that's about all he can pivot to since he published one of the dumbest initial takes on the internet.  And yet, the cultists still eat it up.

I can't speak for the American experience, but in my country only 65 people have died, which is fewer than in a typical flu season. I don't see life fundamentally changing at all. We're about 4 weeks away from dispensing with some of the social exclusion measures and after that we will slowly resume normality.

A lot of things will be worse and a fair few things will be better.
"they did all these drastic measures,and only a few people got sick. So hey you guys that proves we didn't need the drastic measures!"
*Palm-to-face

It is absolutely astounding to me that so many people fail to understand this concept.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2020, 12:41:00 PM »
I didn't read the latest guest post, 'The Medicine of Mustachianism', but I think I spotted the phrase 'Mustachinaism really is the best medicine'.  When I'm in the ICU because the coronavirus inevitably made its rounds to everyone in the US, and maybe I'm just unlucky enough to get hit hard, I'll be sure to ask for an IV of Mustachianism!

/sarcasm mode back to off

Maybe it's a good post, but I don't read guest posts after being burned so many times in the past.  Padding and filler 99.9% of the time.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2020, 12:58:09 PM »
I engaged and you shot me a false ad hominem and moved on. To reiterate, if my mental state cannot directly harm you, and Pete is not advocating that I take any actions that transmit the disease or otherwise harm public health efforts, then how does Pete asking me to change my mental state harm you?

Again, this isn't about what Pete is asking you to / what you're doing.  I already pointed out his entire viewpoint on this is very privileged.  He never once acknowledges how hard it is that 1 in 5 workers are out of a job, how hard it is for thousands of families to have loved ones die alone, to not be able to hold a funeral. 

My point, for the umpteenth time, is that Pete made a moronic post initially about the coronavirus outbreak.  It was misinformed, misleading, and dangerous to spread that kind of false information to his (presumably) thousands of readers.  Instead of acknowledging that or updating his article to reflect reality, he instead pivots to how it's not that bad (for the folks who still have a job) and that things are good, actually.

Step 1: Make a misinformed post, comparing covid-19 to the flu
Step 2: Your initial post is immediately challenged and proven to be pretty inaccurate
Step 3: Pivot away form playing armchair epidemiologist and transition to being an "outrageous optimist."

He never acknowledges his shortcomings in his first post, never offers an apology, never notes to his readers that he mis-read the situation.  And of course, readers/commenters can't see the pushback in the comments on his site because he filters out nearly all critiques.  This forum and twitter replies are basically the only place where that happens.  And even here, basically every critique (on this subject or any) is immediately met with response from supporters asking, "Why are you criticizing Pete for having an opinion??!!" or "Why does Pete posting something make you angry?? tRiGgErEd!!!" Pete likes to joke he started a cult, but plenty of folks are proving it wasn't a joke.  And I say that as someone who thinks Pete has both good and bad ideas!  But if I'm questioned *every time* for saying Pete made a bad point, it's a cult.

So, sure, if you want to ignore our hospital systems becoming precariously close to running out of ventilators, or >30k people dying in the U.S. alone from this virus, or all of the people forced out of work because of government shut downs...feel free.  If you want to live your life that privileged and that uncaring about others, I don't care.  Whatever you decide to do with your life has no impact on me. 

I'm also not even really sure of Pete's point in his follow up - as long as we have a society we're fine?  Cool.  Thanks for the incredible wisdom.  Some kids are walking with their parents more?  YEAH NO SHIT.  There's literally nothing else to do.  Whenever "normal" comes back I highly doubt we're going to think back fondly of doing about the only physical activity we were allowed to do with our families.  Maybe I'm wrong, though.  I'm just not *optimistic* enough.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2020, 02:08:08 PM »
...
He never acknowledges his shortcomings in his first post, never offers an apology, never notes to his readers that he mis-read the situation. 
...

It's actually a bit worse than that.  In his followup post, he states -
Quote
The pandemic has spread much further and faster than most uninformed people (including me) would have ever guessed, and the whole world is on some form of lockdown. Nothing quite like this has ever happened before in the modern world.

My initial point in the OP is that he WAS informed when he posted an uninformed, off-base comment on Twitter.  Lots of smart, informed people told him you can't compare the spread of a virus with lifestyle factors and that we have to take this thing seriously until we know what we're dealing with.  Initial reports were showing the novel coronavirus to be more contagious and severe than the flu, it just hadn't spread very widely - which was a good thing. 

But then, like all of the leaders in the US apparently, he shrugs and says it was unpredictable.  And then he goes on to predict a whole bunch of other wonderful things that are going to happen in the future.  I guess it's good to keep up some optimism, but a little humility would be more in line with our current reality - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/16/coronavirus-leading-cause-death/

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2020, 07:12:30 AM »
...
He never acknowledges his shortcomings in his first post, never offers an apology, never notes to his readers that he mis-read the situation. 
...

It's actually a bit worse than that.  In his followup post, he states -
Quote
The pandemic has spread much further and faster than most uninformed people (including me) would have ever guessed, and the whole world is on some form of lockdown. Nothing quite like this has ever happened before in the modern world.

My initial point in the OP is that he WAS informed when he posted an uninformed, off-base comment on Twitter.  Lots of smart, informed people told him you can't compare the spread of a virus with lifestyle factors and that we have to take this thing seriously until we know what we're dealing with.  Initial reports were showing the novel coronavirus to be more contagious and severe than the flu, it just hadn't spread very widely - which was a good thing. 

But then, like all of the leaders in the US apparently, he shrugs and says it was unpredictable.  And then he goes on to predict a whole bunch of other wonderful things that are going to happen in the future.  I guess it's good to keep up some optimism, but a little humility would be more in line with our current reality - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/16/coronavirus-leading-cause-death/

Right.  You put it better than I did.  If you give him the benefit of the doubt, the generous read of it was that he was uninformed/misinformed.  Despite, like you said, plenty of experts telling us this virus had a very high R0 value. 

I didn't realize just how bad his first blog entry was.  He compares it to the seasonal flu, which is flawed for a couple reasons.  Both the R0 value and estimated mortality rate of covid-19 are MAGNITUDES WORSE than the seasonal flu.  And at the time, he was trying to compare deaths from a virus that had been in the U.S. for about a month with A FULL SEASON'S worth of flu deaths.  COVID-19 deaths have now surpassed the average yearly count of flu deaths over the last 10 years.  And that's in just three months.  He also compares it to previous viruses - Ebola, H1N1, etc.  SARS-CoV-2 has a higher R0 value, has no widely available vaccine, etc.  So again, comparing a FULL RUN of a virus to the first month of a global outbreak is just as idiotic as it gets.

Quote
So there’s still a lot of uncertainty. But when faced with a lack of information, we can choose one of two options on where to learn more:

Good looking news anchors with fake tans and no scientific background, who make more money if they generate more viewership hours and advertising revenue, which is proven to multiply if they can cause their viewers to experience fear, or

Scientists and mathematicians who study this stuff for a living, and use incoming data to make a series of continually refined predictions.

In his own blog post he's ignoring the scientists and mathematicians!  Just the height of hubris.  In the *very next paragraph* he says if you follow his Mustachian advice/lifestyle tips you will "greatly boost your immunity to Covid-19, and decrease your chance of serious illness or death if you do catch it."

Pete is not a doctor.  He's not an epidemiologist.  If he wants to post why he's optimistic or how he thinks investing strategies shouldn't change, have at it.  But he's dispensing medical advice when he's not a medical doctor.  And he's trying to frame a global pandemic as not that bad while also telling us to listen to scientists and mathematicians who have been saying this is bad for months.  His posts are full of contradictions.

You're right.  He appears to have followed the blue print of Trump, Musk, Dr. Drew, etc. "It's like the flu."  (Data comes in showing it's much worse)  "Meh, this was unpredictable."

remizidae

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 239
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2020, 05:35:37 PM »
Beyond the basics (eat vegetables and exercise) MMM's advice on health has ALWAYS been tone deaf. It is glaringly obvious he's never had more than a sniffle in his life and thinks lifestyle choices prevent all illness. He's good at lots of things. Health care advice is not one of them.

I think this relates to his idea about "circles of control." There are a lot of things about your health you cannot control. You CAN control whether you eat well and live an active and fit lifestyle. And actual health experts endorse this advice too. The five biggest things people can do for their health are 1) maintain a healthy weight, 2) exercise, 3) don't smoke, 4) drink in moderation or not at all, 5) eat a healthy diet. Yet, when public health people try to measure this, almost no one does all five. So, it may be obvious, but a lot of us still haven't gotten the message!

wanderlustNW

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2020, 05:46:14 PM »
So, it may be obvious, but a lot of us still haven't gotten the message!

Oh I think if you asked people if they got these messages a majority would say 'yes'. The problem is self control, which I lack lot of. I like dessert, I like a beer, and these give me pleasure. The reward center of my brain crave these, so I give into them. So what if I'm a few pounds overweight. I'm going to enjoy my cake, and perhaps I might get diabetes when I'm 75. Right now I'm enjoying these things damn it.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2020, 09:55:59 AM »
Beyond the basics (eat vegetables and exercise) MMM's advice on health has ALWAYS been tone deaf. It is glaringly obvious he's never had more than a sniffle in his life and thinks lifestyle choices prevent all illness. He's good at lots of things. Health care advice is not one of them.

I think this relates to his idea about "circles of control." There are a lot of things about your health you cannot control. You CAN control whether you eat well and live an active and fit lifestyle. And actual health experts endorse this advice too. The five biggest things people can do for their health are 1) maintain a healthy weight, 2) exercise, 3) don't smoke, 4) drink in moderation or not at all, 5) eat a healthy diet. Yet, when public health people try to measure this, almost no one does all five. So, it may be obvious, but a lot of us still haven't gotten the message!

Ah, yes...those contagious cases of obesity or the contagious nature of alcohol-related deaths.  You can say smoking causes harm to others via second-hand smoke, sure.  Other than that, entirely irrelevant when discussing a highly-contagious virus.  Of course, when you want to downplay the seriousness of such a virus, you do have to resort to comparing it to things out of context and that aren't really related at all.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2870
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Lessons in Fear and Wealth from the Coronavirus
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2020, 11:43:58 PM »
This was the part of the article that I thought was good, and even that was written quite weakly given the stakes -
Quote
And finally, still important but statistically less urgent is taking actual steps related to dodging this and other viral illnesses. Wash your hands a few times a day and avoid unnecessary large gatherings of people in close quarters, until the health organizations tell us we are in the clear.

One really should re-read the article just to get that 'oh we were so innocent back then' feeling.  But, because Pete won't update his article with the times (to include measures like explicit social distancing and wearing a facemask - Mustachians really should be the vanguard of enlightened, not the clueless masses), I might as well continue to comment here on it being misplaced to rely on your healthy lifestyle and non-urgent social distancing...   https://www.chron.com/news/article/Doctors-keep-discovering-new-ways-coronavirus-15260162.php

Quote
Deborah Coughlin was neither short of breath nor coughing. In those first days after she contracted the novel coronavirus, her fever never spiked above 100 degrees. It was vomiting and diarrhea that brought her to a Hartford, Connecticut, emergency room on May 1.

"You would have thought it was a stomach virus," said her daughter Catherina Coleman. "She was talking and walking and completely coherent."

But even as Coughlin, 67, chatted with her daughters on her cellphone, the oxygen level in her blood dropped so low that most patients would be near death. She is on a ventilator and in critical condition at St. Francis Hospital, one more patient with an increasingly diverse constellation of symptoms physicians are racing to recognize, explain and treat.

This is not over folks, people that don't seem ill are spreading this thing - don't be that person!  This virus can be beaten, as New Zealand and Australia show, and many places are showing infections are on the decline or are stamping out quickly-identified and contact-traced embers...  but it takes the effort of all, discipline and being well-informed, and not giving in to blind hubris and optimism.  Being healthy might keep you alive (no guarantees), but certainly won't prevent an infection and spreading the virus further.