Author Topic: 2024 spending report sets me off for some reason  (Read 8547 times)

roomtempmayo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1416
Re: 2024 spending report sets me off for some reason
« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2025, 03:24:44 PM »
There's also a reading of his self-efficacy creed that could mean that poor people are poor because they've made bad choices, and so deserve their poverty.  He never quite says that, because he doesn't really think (out loud) about social structures.  But he also doesn't disavow that line of thinking, which is in direct conflict with his generally progressive politics.

I think all of this is well-said-- it's not that Pete says this directly, or maybe even believes it directly, it's that it's such a common cultural attitude that not to read it into his blog almost requires... I'm not sure how to put it. Something like suspension of disbelief?

/snip

Yeah, in a United States context, if you start talking about financial efficacy and choices without explicitly disavowing (religious or secular) prosperity gospel, you're tacitly endorsing it.  It's just in the water.

What grinds me about MMM is that it's all efficacy all the time, which is a very partial view of the world and doesn't make the mental effort to acknowledge that all of us simultaneously both have agency and also have varying degrees of constraint on our choices, often patterned along lines of race, gender, and class, that are outside of our control.  A focus on efficacy works for making personal choices, but it's not an accurate portrayal of the world.

And we all know the way to fight the prosperity gospel is to angrily consume goods and services as much as possible.

At no point have I argued anything of the sort.  Not sure where this is coming from.

The world is complex, full of nuance, and heavily influenced by decisions made in the past.  It's a red flag to me whenever someone wishes that away.  The end.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2055
Re: 2024 spending report sets me off for some reason
« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2025, 04:02:55 PM »
The points were made upthread re the concerns that he isn't addressing people with different issues than him. Others pointed out that him putting a disclaimer before every post also seems unnecessary. I provided a long list of FIRE/financial influencers with diverse backgrounds and quite a few who preach a scarcity gospel.

There have been times in the past where people left this forum in favor of one where terminology like "face punches" wouldn't be used and they felt the message was more female-centered.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 04:04:30 PM by Fru-Gal »

getsorted

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1385
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Deepest Midwest
Re: 2024 spending report sets me off for some reason
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2025, 04:30:43 PM »
I would point out that the Internet is awash with wealthy people who are telling people who aren't wealthy how to become wealthy, and that everyone who reads a post by MMM or anyone else is going to look for key indicators that the person has something to say, and isn't just another grifter writing nonsense for clickbait or to sell books.

One of the metrics by which I evaluate such people is whether they appear to believe that thoughts are magic-- as in, if we simply think the right thoughts, money will come to us, health will come to us, and nothing unfortunate will ever befall us (or if it does, the right thoughts will make the consequences of that thing go away).

Usually grifters have stories about people who something bad happened to, but managed to make the thing they wanted to happen, happen anyway. And then they universally apply that story to every single human being who has ever lived.

For example, "I was on my way to interview for my dream job. It was an opportunity I knew was made just for me. On the way to the office, I fell into a puddle and got soaked through. I went to the interview anyway. Nothing was going to stop me! And they were so impressed, they hired me anyway. If I can do it, anyone can! Never let anything stop you!"

But it's very easy to see that this story is not very applicable if, for example, you were on your way to a job interview and got hit by a bus, and spent the next eight weeks in traction, and the position was filled while you were in the hospital. In that case, the strategies you will need to get your dream job are going to have to be substantially revised, along with your timeline.

It's useful to get lots of different stories about how people met their financial and life goals. It's not useful to be told that a single strategy will always get the same results with the same amount of effort for every single living soul who ever was or will be. The harder someone swings that line, the more I think they don't know what they're talking about.

Are there people who will simply raise objections because they just don't want to do anything? Sure! But I have been saying for years that there are probably a lot of people who would dig a little deeper into FIRE if they heard about it from someone who said, "Here's what I did. The way you do it will look different, but I think you can learn some useful strategies from my story. Here is what I would do in your shoes." Instead of, "Everyone who isn't doing it my way is doing it wrong. In fact, you're dumb suckers who are lazy and self-indulgent." Maybe that attitude is good marketing and drives lots of clicks from the right niche; who knows. I would like to see more inclusive phrasing simply because I would like to share what I've learned here, but I would frankly be embarrassed for anyone I know in real life to associate Pete's blog and his obnoxious rhetoric with me.

Fru-Gal

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2055
Re: 2024 spending report sets me off for some reason
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2025, 04:49:11 PM »
BTW, I apologize if I made you or anyone angry. Like MMM, I have an agenda. I get frustrated when it slips by unnoticed, as it did in this exchange.

I wrote it upthread:

Quote
I know a lot of this is upsetting. Why? Because we’ve been lied to. We’ve been told we have no agency. We’ve been told by oil oligarchs that we have to live in far off suburbs and drive a motorized couch one hour to work every day. We’ve been told that endless wars are necessary to keep the flow of black gold going into our cars. We’ve been told that public transportation is always dirty and only for the poors. We’ve been told that America has no trains when in fact our country was built on trains and maintains a vast network of very nice trains.We’ve been distracted by lies about our own abilities so that we won’t recognize our own greatness. Madison Avenue has done a number on us, but there’s not one single bad guy. It’s just time to wake up that’s all.

Having done a lot of hard labor and low-income work in my life (though I was raised middle class), it took decades for me to see that my experiences were my super power. When I finally got a high-paying job, I was surrounded by rich people who didn't know they were rich. While I was biking and taking assorted forms of transit to work, they were paying off new cars and other toys. I still had that residual feeling that I was some kind of loser when I didn't show up to a meeting in a fancy new car (mine is decades old). But environmentalism, ephemeralism and essentialism made me realize these are not only pointless pursuits, they are destructive.

So if I defend MMM it's because it saddens me when his environmental message is missed. That's a message of efficiency, in the end. It's not "live in a tent", it's "you don't need a truck". That's "tiny details syndrome" in his parlance, the focus on little "luxuries" that keep you on the hedonistic treadmill.

The only other FI blogger I know who is also an environmentalist is Early Retirement Extreme.