The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Continue the Blog Conversation => Topic started by: NaN on April 29, 2023, 07:07:17 AM
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Title based on comment in the recent article (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2023/04/27/why-buy-model-y/). I get there are other points the guy is trying to make (1-don't be cheap and don't feel guilty about not, 2-electric cars may be good). However, what stood out to me was this:
But yes, it’s also okay to set aside a portion of the money you’ve earned, for frivolous spending on yourself and those closest to you. You’re not a bad person for having a few nice things.
The last sentence reminds me of a life ago hearing preachers in middle to upper class neighborhoods trying to make people feel not guilty about their plush area of town, spending money on lavish things, etc.
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I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.
Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(
Edit: I feel compelled to clarify that my issue is not with the dollar amount (sure, he can afford it), but with supporting and promoting Tesla in particular (because Musk, obviously). The richer you are, the MORE conscious you can afford to be about your spending. Comparing features is for early stage Mustachians. Late stage Mustachians should be focused on making the world better first.
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Anyone stumbling on the MMM blog now would probably laugh.
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The guy carefully amassed a fortune, needs a car, and bought a vehicle that will cost about as much as a base model Camry over the life of the car. I think we can cut him a break.
I still greatly appreciate MMM circa 2013, though I appreciate the more mature perspective that time affords. Living very frugally works great in your 20s, in your 30s and above it's worth recognizing that spending money often solves problems that are worth solving.
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The guy carefully amassed a fortune, needs a car, and bought a vehicle that will cost about as much as a base model Camry over the life of the car. I think we can cut him a break.
I still greatly appreciate MMM circa 2013, though I appreciate the more mature perspective that time affords. Living very frugally works great in your 20s, in your 30s and above it's worth recognizing that spending money often solves problems that are worth solving.
While I don't disagree with your comments here, MMM in 2013 would absolutely disagree with them.
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I think the arc of the MMM "story" is what will inevitably happen to most of us. Those of us seeking FIRE are statistically likely to oversave because of course we would. No one wants to run their portfolio to zero. At some point you reach the point of realizing that your stash has grown well beyond your means to spend, and that you're even older now which means it's even more inconceivable that you could spend it.
Personally, I find myself in this same boat. Short of the next stretch of years being the worst the US has ever experienced, financially, we've won the game. Period. Full stop. And I too sometimes find myself needing to make a purchase where I am unable to optimize the cost and mentally debate the alternatives with myself. And I too sometimes realize that in my now current position it isn't worth altering or missing out on whatever experience it is I would have had for the sake of optimization alone.
Would I buy a Tesla? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't something else out there that might be an equivalent scenario I'd break my frugality for.
To assume a person would live the entire arc of their life with unchanging frugality rules is to discount the perspective that most of us will end up facing when we have amassed a "too big" stash. On the one hand, I find MMM's recent blog posts to be detrimental to his brand circa 2013. On the other hand I can appreciate that rather than simply ending the blog, which is what he would have to do, he is showing the very real side of what comes after. I appreciate it because I know that it's a reality that many people will go through when they reach that point and I also hope that they don't choose to forgo whatever bread they had planned for a special breakfast with friends the next morning over an inefficiency in price. It is absolutely a more privileged position to be in, but it's still reality nonetheless.
I suppose someone could make the argument that this is a slippery slope to truly obscene spending, whatever that would be from each of our perspectives. I would simply say that it has to go somewhere. The man is clearly charitable. He's given away a whole helluva lot more money than I have so far. Would we really begrudge the person who gave away millions during their lifetime, but one less million than the next guy because he chose to spend that one on his own happiness?
You can't take it with you. Earlier today that meant instead of spending a couple hours fashioning a barbell hanger for our garage out of scrap wood I surely have laying around and am capable of making, I spent $20 on a steel one from Amazon because I just wanted to hang it and be done with it rather than fuss over it. Current me is just fine with that. 2013 me would have made the wooden one. And that's okay.
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It sounds like he’s moved from the accumulation stage to the decumulation stage and is starting to challenge what some of the forumites here call their “Inner Bag Lady”.
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It's a bit of a tough situation for the blog. MMM has earned something like millions of dollars from the blog, right? And the blog was started after he had already retired. What else is he supposed to do with his money? The obvious answer is donate it, but I must admit he's already donated several hundred thousand. I hope he continues to do so, but he can certainly spend his money how he likes.
The unfortunate part is that people reading the blog for the first time need to be told not to buy clown cars! MMM has written extensively on how to reduce car use and buy inexpensive used cars, but now people coming to the homepage will see this bit about the Tesla instead.
I did reread the article Our shared ongoing battle to not buy a Tesla (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/05/08/tesla-procrastination/) to see how this battle was finally lost. He has been anticipating this purchase for at least 4 years, and the points that he raises in to procrastinate on his purchase have all been resolved now. He has a destination to drive to; I'm going to assume he built the deck/carport combo he planned to build; he's not planning to drive cross-country at a go (and besides, he can afford the additional expense vs air travel); and he did rent some extensively. He did a good job procrastinating!
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I appreciated the bit about the Minimum Spending Budget/Dedicated Money Wasting Account. I myself do not have such an account, though I've considered using one and may do so in the future. I think it is a useful tool to have in the toolbox. The MMM philosophy is that you can greatly reduce your spending without hurting (in fact perhaps helping) your quality of life. Nevertheless sometimes here or on reddit I read of people who are saving so hard that they go past the peak and do hurt their quality of life. They live with roommates they hate or stay in a job they hate or never spend time with friends or work too many hours, because they want to save save save. These people might benefit from a minimum spending budget.
Then there are the people who are saving hard and are content but would just like to relax a little. Good option for them too.
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This whole situation reminds me a lot of Should you reverse any advice you hear? (https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any-advice-you-hear/) Two pieces of exactly opposing advice can each benefit different groups of people. However, people are more likely to hear advice that they have already heard and hence don't need to hear. In this case, "you should stop spending all your money on your clown car or your Dave's bread or your Vitamix, save it instead" vs. "you're saving too much money, set some aside to have fun with".
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I don't see any issue with buying an expensive electric vehicle that he can afford, if it fits his needs. He probably should have done this far sooner, because I think you have a duty to stop burning fossil fuels if you can afford to.
His approach seems backwards though. If you realize you have too much money you should allow yourself more spending on what you find valuable.
You shouldn't decide you need to spend $X then find the valuable things to spend on. You shouldn't have an account of money you're forced to waste. This seems like thinly veiled treat yo' self consumerism.
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I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.
Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(
Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.
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Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it. It sounds like he wants it for dating as well - to show off his fancy whip to girls which he is apparently taking out to fancy restaurants when not jetting around first class. Why?
My spouse still insists we clip digital coupons at Safeway, especially as inflation pushes prices up. We may buy an electric vehicle one day (never a Tesla!) after driving our existing cars into the ground. We withdraw 2-3% but I'm not bothered by this in the least. We may decide to relocate and re-allocate the stash into more housing in a VHCOL area for quality of life which could put us closer to 4% with the remaining invested.
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I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.
Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(
Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.
Is he? Can we tell who is actually paying for it with all the people Musk has given it away to?
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It all sounds very reasonable except that there is a complete absence of considering the environmental costs of consumerism - some of this "luxury" spending has little or no additional environmental cost but some of it has a lot. Plus of course more of us have the room for this luxury spending than the planet can afford, there's nothing that answers that problem.
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Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it.
I admit that I don’t know the math on the ecology of this car purchase.
But MMM wasn’t supposed to be about the money. Accumulating money was a side effect of living responsibly and not trashing the planet.
If he wants to buy expensive bread — whatever. You have to eat, who cares what the bread costs at this point in his life. He actually has the freedom to buy a better bread.
What stuck in my craw was not taking the train to the airport because it takes an hour! An hour! So he and his buddies have enough money to take an Uber. What about the big picture? What about the emissions and the congestion and the reduced train usage? Because you can’t sit in peace for an hour?
I think this came up in other recent blogs, where flying first class was perfectly rational for him as a rich dude. Maybe financially since he has money to burn. But he used to pretend to care about the planet.
So I wonder about the stereotypes of rich people and their selfish behavior. I always figured selfishness was the cause and wealth was the effect. Watching MMM progress here I do wonder if there is more to it.
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You shouldn't decide you need to spend $X then find the valuable things to spend on. You shouldn't have an account of money you're forced to waste. This seems like thinly veiled treat yo' self consumerism.
Ironically, this is how it's going to happen for us in practice. I do extensive modeling of our financial situation, planned spending over our lifetime with an emphasis on maximizing long term taxation efficiency and access to our money. The most optimum way for us to handle that now that we're FIRE with "too much" is to plan to spend a certain amount each year. I get into this pretty extensively in my Dying With Zero journal. Whether we actually spend all that money or if we donate whatever we just don't feel the need to spend is irrelevant to what the model proposes. If we don't spend it down, we end up with multiple six-fogure RMDs when we're older. We're definitely giving a bunch of money away then if we couldnt figure out out to loosen the purse strings a little when we were younger.
We're still early enough in our FIRE journey that I don't know exactly what that looks like yet but we're already able to put brackets around the range of options. Right now we spend 45-55k per year depending on how adventurous we are. It's clear that under no circumstances should we spend less than 80k if we want to optimize taxation and access to our money over our lifetime. Extremely first world problem. We're already starting to think about what kind of charitable giving we'll do once our daughter is old enough for us to know she wont have any developmental delays that could require atypical financial support. In a few years we'll really be able to have some fun with it.
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I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.
Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(
Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.
Is he? Can we tell who is actually paying for it with all the people Musk has given it away to?
He has well under 1m followers, so yes. Even the MadFientist is paying for it.
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Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it.
I admit that I don’t know the math on the ecology of this car purchase.
But MMM wasn’t supposed to be about the money. Accumulating money was a side effect of living responsibly and not trashing the planet.
If he wants to buy expensive bread — whatever. You have to eat, who cares what the bread costs at this point in his life. He actually has the freedom to buy a better bread.
What stuck in my craw was not taking the train to the airport because it takes an hour! An hour! So he and his buddies have enough money to take an Uber. What about the big picture? What about the emissions and the congestion and the reduced train usage? Because you can’t sit in peace for an hour?
I think this came up in other recent blogs, where flying first class was perfectly rational for him as a rich dude. Maybe financially since he has money to burn. But he used to pretend to care about the planet.
So I wonder about the stereotypes of rich people and their selfish behavior. I always figured selfishness was the cause and wealth was the effect. Watching MMM progress here I do wonder if there is more to it.
Yeah, exactly. I think when MMM first retired he was probably much more relatable to a lot of people in his audience. At the start he could scream 'badassity' ideas about taking a train that takes an extra hour vs an Uber. But I think he is in an entirely unique situation now where he is screaming ideas to the wrong audience. It is understandable - how could he expect gaining such fame and fortune from this effort? I do think he has changed because of the success of his blog. His original ideas are mostly good, but don't apply to him now, or have just a different impact on him than it does on most of his readers.
What I do think applies to everyone that he seems to gloss over with this most recent post is his idea about treating oneself. To me, it is really about the overall mental health of every person should take priority over even the most frugal badass habit. I think what he might be addressing is his own state specifically having spending deficits (budget surplus) for years while abiding, but maybe with increasing stress of more money to know what to do with, to some very frugal tendencies. Sounds like a challenging situation to spread his original ideas, and then find himself in a situation he never expected, and then tries to justify his behavior of some more spendy behavior. To be honest, if I retired tomorrow and started something that gave me more wealth than I knew what to do with then I think that situation would have a toll on me.
I think he could make the mental health challenges of people striving for FIRE a more forefront topic, and be more open about the situation he finds himself in.
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I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?
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Personal growth is hard, and rife with learning opportunities. MMM is doing his growth in the public eye, warts and all (not calling this particular one a wart, just in general). It takes gumption to do that.
Some of y'all would never survive under the kind of scrutiny and cattiness you feel empowered to spray at him from a distance for making a decision different than you. Disagree if you wish, but when you stray into calling him a loser it says more about you than he. <shrug>
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I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?
Funny, but not even close.
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Personal growth is hard, and rife with learning opportunities. MMM is doing his growth in the public eye, warts and all (not calling this particular one a wart, just in general). It takes gumption to do that.
Some of y'all would never survive under the kind of scrutiny and cattiness you feel empowered to spray at him from a distance for making a decision different than you. Disagree if you wish, but when you stray into calling him a loser it says more about you than he. <shrug>
Anyone who has helped so many people achieve FI/RE on their own terms is anything but a loser. I suspect a lot of the snark is coming from people who are not yet FI.
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I think the arc of the MMM "story" is what will inevitably happen to most of us. Those of us seeking FIRE are statistically likely to oversave because of course we would. No one wants to run their portfolio to zero. At some point you reach the point of realizing that your stash has grown well beyond your means to spend, and that you're even older now which means it's even more inconceivable that you could spend it.
Personally, I find myself in this same boat. Short of the next stretch of years being the worst the US has ever experienced, financially, we've won the game. Period. Full stop. And I too sometimes find myself needing to make a purchase where I am unable to optimize the cost and mentally debate the alternatives with myself. And I too sometimes realize that in my now current position it isn't worth altering or missing out on whatever experience it is I would have had for the sake of optimization alone.
Would I buy a Tesla? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't something else out there that might be an equivalent scenario I'd break my frugality for.
To assume a person would live the entire arc of their life with unchanging frugality rules is to discount the perspective that most of us will end up facing when we have amassed a "too big" stash. On the one hand, I find MMM's recent blog posts to be detrimental to his brand circa 2013. On the other hand I can appreciate that rather than simply ending the blog, which is what he would have to do, he is showing the very real side of what comes after. I appreciate it because I know that it's a reality that many people will go through when they reach that point and I also hope that they don't choose to forgo whatever bread they had planned for a special breakfast with friends the next morning over an inefficiency in price. It is absolutely a more privileged position to be in, but it's still reality nonetheless.
I suppose someone could make the argument that this is a slippery slope to truly obscene spending, whatever that would be from each of our perspectives. I would simply say that it has to go somewhere. The man is clearly charitable. He's given away a whole helluva lot more money than I have so far. Would we really begrudge the person who gave away millions during their lifetime, but one less million than the next guy because he chose to spend that one on his own happiness?
You can't take it with you. Earlier today that meant instead of spending a couple hours fashioning a barbell hanger for our garage out of scrap wood I surely have laying around and am capable of making, I spent $20 on a steel one from Amazon because I just wanted to hang it and be done with it rather than fuss over it. Current me is just fine with that. 2013 me would have made the wooden one. And that's okay.
I wonder if he saw your post lol!!
I think there are a lot of mustachians who retired 4-5 years ago and fall into the "rich" side of rich, broke, or dead, and he provides pretty good advice for those in that group. As a class of 21 person that article does not apply to me at this time and that's ok. He did not seem advocating for anyone to work longer and strive for that level of wealth, nor implying that it's necessary for happiness.
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The next time I have to buy a car, I want to buy an EV. But it definitely won't be a Tesla.
I'm sure there are some smart people working for Tesla who want to save the planet. It's not their fault they have an asshole for a boss. But Elon Musk has proven himself to be a flaming garbage pile of a person, and I don't want to support his unhinged behavior.
As for MMM, he can get whatever car he wants for himself. He can certainly afford it. He could probably buy a Tesla every year and not make a dent in his stash. I find it odd that complete strangers feel entitled to tell him how to spend his money.
But anyone who wanted to argue that this decision isn't consistent with the philosophy he espoused on his blog at the beginning... that wouldn't be wrong. And it does raise questions about how feasible it is to plan on living a lean-FIRE lifestyle forever.
I think I've said before that it would make more sense for him to divide his articles into "beginner Mustachianism", for people who are just getting started on their FIRE journey, and "advanced Mustachianism" like this post, for people like him who've won the game - who've been frugal investors for many years and now have more money than they could spend in their lifetimes.
I kind of agree that, if you're a multimillionaire who's been retired for many years, it doesn't make sense to agonize over a couple of extra dollars when buying a loaf of bread. But it's dangerous for young people who've just discovered FIRE to think that way. It would help to make it clearer which audience he's addressing.
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I think MMM is engaging in consumerism for one of the main reasons anyone (including me) engages in it: he doesn’t know what else to do with himself. Over the past few years he’s seemed adrift. Divorce, looking for a relationship, his kid reaching adulthood, blog on autopilot, moving to a new state potentially, etc. It seems like he is entering a new life stage and just kind of doesn’t know what to do now, doesn’t know how to spend his time.
I think this is a very common struggle for people and many fill that time with buying stuff and experiences! Car, house, and travel purchases can take up a lot of brain space which has the benefit of making people feel busy and it can be used as a way to avoid more uncomfortable self-examination. That’s why many people will go from big purchase to big purchase for their entire lives. It’s a way of avoiding ‘touching the void.’
Anyway, it would be interesting and I think useful to others for him to do some self-examination in this regard. As it is this post is a bit silly. But we’re all silly at moments, so.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with MMM buying a Tesla--not that he needs my approval.
But I find it funny that he's making choices now that he can and did judge harshly in the past, and he hasn't addressed that, as far as I can tell. If you run around publicly and loudly calling people basically idiots for doing X and then you later do X, you sort of look like a hypocrite. (Yes, I know it was at least partly a schtick, but he said it none the less.) I think a blog post acknowledging that perspectives change, and talking about his rationale would go a long way. Maybe retroactively give people the grace he couldn't muster back then, but that he now offers himself. As far as I can tell, he hasn't done that anywhere. To me, it makes him look like a hypocrite. His brand was made calling this behavior "consumer sucka-ism" and offering virtual face punches for choices just like this one. Nothing wrong with growing and learning and changing, but to just sort of pretend nothing has changed and hope no one notices, or something like that, is somewhat laughable to me. IMO, he looks like an idiot. Not because he bought a Tesla, but because he went against so many of the things he said definitely and repeatedly, and hasn't acknowledged any of that. He doesn't owe anyone that, but people are going to form and have opinions.
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I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.
Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(
Edit: I feel compelled to clarify that my issue is not with the dollar amount (sure, he can afford it), but with supporting and promoting Tesla in particular (because Musk, obviously). The richer you are, the MORE conscious you can afford to be about your spending. Comparing features is for early stage Mustachians. Late stage Mustachians should be focused on making the world better first.
He made a post about five years ago predicting he'd buy one this year, but he'd be buying used.
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I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?
Funny, but not even close.
I listened to a Ramit Seti podcast yesterday about a youngish couple who had $200,000 in the bank and maybe some 401(k)s, I can’t remember. In my book, they didn’t have a whole lot of money. Ramit was urging them to go take their wildly imagined big vacations, I mean expensive ones. Wow.
The man in the couple gets laid off regularly.
The woman in the couple said she wouldn’t feel comfortable going on this wild ass vacation of many months until they had about $1 million in the bank.
I agree with her.
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There are two issues here:
There's Pete buying a car he's wanted for years and there's MMM writing an article justifying consumerism.
Pete buying a car is Pete's business, he's got way more money than he could ever need and as we all know, he was wanted this for a very long time.
On the other hand, MMM, kind of facepunches and ridicule for this *exact thing* writing an article justifying consumerism is...a choice, one that is guaranteed to trigger backlash and accusations of hypocrisy.
Because it is hypocritical. People are allowed to change their minds, they are allowed to be hypocritical. That's fine, that's normal human behaviour. But when you create a persona with a very vocal agenda, normal human hypocrisy is a complex thing to try and justify within the paradigm of that agenda.
I think there's A LOT of value in discussing what the hell to do with the excess gobs of money that a lot of people in this community will end up with.
I would LOVE to see a series of articles exploring the complex relationship to large wealth when your wealth came from espousing frugality and promoting how little wealth one actually needs to live an optimal life.
I would really like to see more depth.
I'm absolutely going to end up with way more money than I need, and I would appreciate some more genuine exploration of what that will really mean to me. Mr. Green has engaged in some deep thoughts on this, as have other forum members.
There is a demand for this discourse, but it's going to have to come from a more humble perspective in order to resonate. Not so much a "hey, I did a thing and here's why it's good" and more of a "here's why I've been conflicted and here's how I feel about it and why it now feels right but before it didn't."
Pete can do whatever he wants. He doesn't need MMM to be a voice that pleases people. At the end of the day he can share whatever he wants and frame his experiences and choices however he sees fit. He's beyond FI, MMM can be whatever the hell Pete wants him to be.
That doesn't mean people won't have opinions about it.
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I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?
Funny, but not even close.
As someone who has read tons of content by both, they are far more similar than appears.
Both have pretty much the exact same goal, the only difference is their mechanisms are changed. Ramit is basically the SWAMI end game. But focused on getting you to the SWAMI point.
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Meh, he replaced his van after 24 years with an equally nice vehicle that costs what another van would.
My wife inquired a few years back if I want a Tesla or Range Rover, but our 2010 van is still hanging in there. I do think that around summertime she'll be getting a vehicle (we share the van currently). She's got her eye on the Subaru Forrester - good for taking the dog around and camping. When the van goes, I perhaps I'll have some grand kids to think about. If so, it'll probably be a 2-year-old van. Maybe it'll just be mine. Maybe it'll go wherever those kiddos go - like when they summer at our house, we have a van, but when it's the school year, my wife and I are sharing the not-yet-purchased Subaru.
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I feel like I have permission from my finance guy to go buy a Tesla now...
and a few other things to go with it.
(j/k)
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People change over time and Pete is no different than many others. His original message still has value.
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Funny story... A couple of years ago a fellow alaskan mustachian and I met up while he was in my town. We were both a little embarrassed by how nice our respective vehicles were. He was actually driving a Tesla, turns out neither of us really felt the need to judge the other. He gave me a ride, it was a very impressive car.
I think the arc of the MMM "story" is what will inevitably happen to most of us. Those of us seeking FIRE are statistically likely to oversave because of course we would. No one wants to run their portfolio to zero. At some point you reach the point of realizing that your stash has grown well beyond your means to spend, and that you're even older now which means it's even more inconceivable that you could spend it.
Personally, I find myself in this same boat. Short of the next stretch of years being the worst the US has ever experienced, financially, we've won the game. Period. Full stop. And I too sometimes find myself needing to make a purchase where I am unable to optimize the cost and mentally debate the alternatives with myself. And I too sometimes realize that in my now current position it isn't worth altering or missing out on whatever experience it is I would have had for the sake of optimization alone.
Would I buy a Tesla? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't something else out there that might be an equivalent scenario I'd break my frugality for.
To assume a person would live the entire arc of their life with unchanging frugality rules is to discount the perspective that most of us will end up facing when we have amassed a "too big" stash. On the one hand, I find MMM's recent blog posts to be detrimental to his brand circa 2013. On the other hand I can appreciate that rather than simply ending the blog, which is what he would have to do, he is showing the very real side of what comes after. I appreciate it because I know that it's a reality that many people will go through when they reach that point and I also hope that they don't choose to forgo whatever bread they had planned for a special breakfast with friends the next morning over an inefficiency in price. It is absolutely a more privileged position to be in, but it's still reality nonetheless.
I suppose someone could make the argument that this is a slippery slope to truly obscene spending, whatever that would be from each of our perspectives. I would simply say that it has to go somewhere. The man is clearly charitable. He's given away a whole helluva lot more money than I have so far. Would we really begrudge the person who gave away millions during their lifetime, but one less million than the next guy because he chose to spend that one on his own happiness?
You can't take it with you. Earlier today that meant instead of spending a couple hours fashioning a barbell hanger for our garage out of scrap wood I surely have laying around and am capable of making, I spent $20 on a steel one from Amazon because I just wanted to hang it and be done with it rather than fuss over it. Current me is just fine with that. 2013 me would have made the wooden one. And that's okay.
I think of all the comments this best matches where I'm at. I commented on another thread recently how our wealth is up something like 14 fold since I started reading the blog and later joined this forum. We are FI and I am RE and now a stay at home dad, but DW still like her work and we're still saving money on just the one income... It's no longer financially a problem to buy a Tesla... I think I'll hold out a bit longer, but eventually our 08 Honda fit (not the vehicle above) will die...
A couple years ago I spent more than an hour standing in front of a shelves in Lowes calculating the Cost/Benefit of getting LED Christmas lights... I nearly didn't buy them because they were 3x the price and given the hours of use I wasn't sure how many years it would take to break even... Were talking like three stings of lights this was not worth more an hour of my life! I've had exactly the same thought as MMM when it comes to Dave's bread too. Usually I'm in some smaller town and the bread is twice the price of Costco. In 2013 MMM and I would both have made a "Millionaire skips toast and saves 15 cents" post. The struggle is real.
I'm not going to adopt a minimum spend budget for a while longer though. We'll give more generously while DW is working and see where things land when she decides she is done. I want to keep our spending (including giving) at a sustainable level so we don't ever need to pinch pennies the way we did in 2013 again.
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I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?
Funny, but not even close.
As someone who has read tons of content by both, they are far more similar than appears.
Both have pretty much the exact same goal, the only difference is their mechanisms are changed. Ramit is basically the SWAMI end game. But focused on getting you to the SWAMI point.
Frankly, aiming to be "rich" kind of squicks me out. My goal has always been to be financially secure. I see that as a huge difference. I had cancer when I was young and never wanted to be vulnerable if it happened again. It has, and I am reveling in the security I feel.
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I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.
What is debatable is how this relates to Pete's previously professed belief that frugality is a virtue, because it has the potential to save the planet and allows you to make choices. So how does it relate to that? he clearly has the choice now to buy a Tesla, cause he has the money and all the other things required to have a car. Will it save the planet more than a second hand gas car? The jury is probably out on that one. I certainly wouldn't know how to compare them.
I also agree with Malcat, there is value in the discussion on what to do with accumulated wealth once you are there. Its totally different from being in accumulation. One part I have seen on this forum is the struggle to let go on the cramped hold on the wallet, that doesn't produce joy, or happiness. That doesn't mean to let go of any reigns and I don't think anybody is suggesting that. So now you have it all, what choices do you make and on the basis of which values? Is the frugal framework linked to sustainability a race to the bottom? I don't think that is the right approach.
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I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.
Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.
And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.
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I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.
Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.
And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.
I think a lot of those replies were jokes.
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I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.
Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.
And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.
I think a lot of those replies were jokes.
Yeah - I was definitely joking.
I guess I need to start adding a (j/k) flag to my joke posts...
Or I need to start telling funnier jokes.
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I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.
Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.
And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.
I have trouble assessing your tone. Do you mean me when you say 'you' in the bit above? Cause if so, thats needlessly rude and non sequitur.
Also, is a person not allowed to change their mind? Pete wrote lots of things 10 years ago when his life and circumstances were different. I have said lots of stuff only last year that I no longer agree with. Since when is that weakness?
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I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.
Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.
And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.
I have trouble assessing your tone. Do you mean me when you say 'you' in the bit above? Cause if so, thats needlessly rude and non sequitur.
No, never. I'm agreeing with you. I'm talking about the hypothetical "person who would buy an expensive car they can't afford just because Pete did" that some folks are wringing their hands about.
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To me, Pete has obviously made himself enough money to retire several times over. He is at the stage where he can purchase things that don’t align with the frugality needed to originally reach the goal. That doesn’t change his advice on getting to the goal initially.
Let’s say, for example, his blog was about how to stop house fires and we all read the blog because our houses are on fire. Some of us are pouring buckets of water on to the fire, some of us are just letting the fire get worse. Some of us have the hose at full power but we're watering the garden. Pete says, "Hey, use this hose and it will put the fire out!"
Now, he put his own house fire out years ago. His house is not on fire. So Pete decided to use the hose to water his garden. For those of us whose houses are still on fire, his advice to point the hose at the house still makes sense, even if it no longer applies to his situation. It makes no sense for people whose house is on fire to say, "Well, why do YOU get to water the garden?"
Maybe not the best analogy...but that's my feelings on the matter.
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I think a lot of those replies were jokes.
There are definitely people who not-jokingly believe that Pete has devalued his earlier advice by not following it with this car purchase. Which IMO entitles them to a full refund and not much else. I think there's still a lot to get out of the advice, personally.
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I think a lot of those replies were jokes.
There are definitely people who not-jokingly believe that Pete has devalued his earlier advice by not following it with this car purchase. Which IMO entitles them to a full refund and not much else. I think there's still a lot to get out of the advice, personally.
My guess is that he would have gotten even more flack if he'd tried to keep it to himself instead of posting about it.
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Am I the only one who came away from that post not caring much about the car but wanting ot know more about the recreational property purchase? And whether they are going to rent out any of the space?
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The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.
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I think a lot of those replies were jokes.
There are definitely people who not-jokingly believe that Pete has devalued his earlier advice by not following it with this car purchase. Which IMO entitles them to a full refund and not much else. I think there's still a lot to get out of the advice, personally.
Totally agree.
Am I the only one who came away from that post not caring much about the car but wanting ot know more about the recreational property purchase? And whether they are going to rent out any of the space?
I'm curious, too.
The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.
^This^
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The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.
It's beyond my comprehension what we'd have done if we'd saved what we did but then built an ongoing six-figure income from passion work afterward. I guess I'd be doing what he's doing. You get to a point where the money has to go somewhere. Co-working space. Recreational property. All of those things allow him to help benefit others while also benefiting himself, which is a best case scenario in my book. Creating your own happiness while making others happy is always a win. And the guy has donated half a million dollars to charity! It's a damn fine start. If everyone who suddenly found themselves wealthier than they expected followed that example I imagine this world would be an exponentially better place.
@lhamo I'm wondering about the recreational property too! We spent time in Salida two years ago and will be again this summer. It's a lovely spot.
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Frankly, aiming to be "rich" kind of squicks me out. My goal has always been to be financially secure. I see that as a huge difference. I had cancer when I was young and never wanted to be vulnerable if it happened again. It has, and I am reveling in the security I feel.
Rich in the sense of fulfillment, moreso than monetarily.
Both are all about using money as a tool to achieve your "rich" life. Just different mechanisms to get there for Ramit vs MMM. Dramatically different, really.
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Mustachianism isn't about being frugal. Mustachianism is about optimizing for happiness. Frugality can be a part of that for many people, but isn't universally applicable.
Most of the earlier MMM posts are targeted at an audience in the accumulation phase, who have little to no retirement savings, who are spending money unwisely, and who are unhappy at least in part because of that unwise spending (racking up debt, lots of monthly payments, living paycheck to paycheck, etc). For people in that situation, the "get a used minivan, quit the starbucks habit, and shop at Aldi" advice is probably right, since doing so will reduce stress from feeling financially strapped, tied to a job, and feeling like they're going nowhere.
But that core tenet of optimizing for happiness means that for someone in MMM's position (retired early, no debt that can't be easily paid off, mindful spending), the advice can be exactly the opposite. Yes, you can buy the Tesla, the Starbucks, *and* the Trader Joe's bread, if that's what makes you happy. Because doing so won't bring on the negative consequences that people in the first group are dealing with.
EDIT: a couple proofreading errors
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Mustachianism isn't about being frugal. Mustachianism is about optimizing for happiness. Frugality can be a part of that for many people, but isn't universally applicable.
Most of the earlier MMM posts are targeted at an audience in the accumulation phase, who have little to no retirement savings, who are spending money unwisely, and who are unhappy at least in part because of that unwise spending (racking up debt, lots of monthly payments, living paycheck to paycheck, etc). For people in that situation, "get a used minivan, quit the starbucks habit, and shop at Aldi" advice is probably right, since doing so will reduce stress from feeling financially strapped, tied to a job, and feeling like they're going nowhere.
But that core tenet of optimizing for happiness means that someone in MMM's position (retired early, no debt that can't be easily paid off, mindful spending), the advice can be exactly the opposite. Yes, you can buy the Tesla, the Starbucks, *and* the Trader Joe's bread, if that's what makes you happy. Because doing so won't bring on the negative consequences that people in the first group are dealing with.
Completely agree
Its amazing how so many comments on the blog post and here are negative. He isn't in the accumulation phase anymore, he has more than enough money. Let the man enjoy it. He is buying an electric car, no more fossil fuels - living his environmentalism best life, from the most respected and advanced EV brand. The eccentricities of the CEO are what made the company survive when it probably should have failed.
Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it. It sounds like he wants it for dating as well - to show off his fancy whip to girls which he is apparently taking out to fancy restaurants when not jetting around first class. Why?
My spouse still insists we clip digital coupons at Safeway, especially as inflation pushes prices up. We may buy an electric vehicle one day (never a Tesla!) after driving our existing cars into the ground. We withdraw 2-3% but I'm not bothered by this in the least. We may decide to relocate and re-allocate the stash into more housing in a VHCOL area for quality of life which could put us closer to 4% with the remaining invested.
MMM doesn't have to be frugal any more and neither do you. He still preaches frugality for those in the accumulation phase. Let the man grow.
"What got you there, won't get you here"
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That “what got you here won’t get you there” quote rang hollow for me.
Where does it come from? Is it something rich people say to themselves to justify excess? I don’t remember reading it in Your Money or Your Life. And it certainly depends on where you are and where your going.
I thought we are going to a car free future. The conveniences of a luxury car certainly got us to this despicable car culture and luxury cars are definitely not getting us to different place. MMM meant his unattributed quote to justify not exercising his frugality muscles, but he should have applied it to the car culture he sometimes dislikes.
I thought there is an aspect of Enough involved in wealth accumulation which doesn’t change the definition of enough as you keep getting more. Obviously MMM has surpassed that. As have many people on the forum. There have been several “how do I spend it” posts on here lately. This MMM post is timely in that sense. Though I would have preferred he not buy a new car and instead promote spending more on buying more ethically produced food. Or not traveling by airplane.
Honestly why did he buy a personal car and not just start a ride share services. I am getting a little worked up thinking about how he could have bought four teslas and set up his own local rideshare rental business at his co-working space or on his street. Maybe he could have facilitated another person to go car free.
The blog post reads like MMM has been hanging out with rich people. Like he is entitled to spend the money because he has it. Which is something I am picking up from this thread also. And is also a question I ask myself living in this rich place. Am I entitled to spend this money because I have it?
It is a question that pushes me to spend in the best way possible. MMM wasn’t only about spending less money. It is a philosophy that describes optimizing. DIY. Health. Experiences, Family, and Friends. Though MMM did have some strong opinions and many early blog posts were a lot about making a point.
I do think there is an upper limit to how much wealth a family should be able to have. MMM used to describe his income as a fire hose of money. When he once directed people to point that hose at their debt and to fill their savings, he now is recommending people waste it. I don’t like wasting water. I feel less strongly about wasting money, but I still don’t like to read about it.
Which is fine. I haven’t read all MMMs posts and there are others of them that I also don’t want to read.
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Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/) ...Aren’t I Mr. Fancypants? No, actually I am not. This stuff isn’t anything to brag about. Although I am enjoying it at the moment, it is actually an indulgence of a weakness, and I had better watch myself....“I am Mr. Bigshot”, I thought to myself. “I sit in bigass cars..
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/) ... our current life is already more than enough. We don’t want to lose the challenge and the spice that is part of life right now. I have only one digestive system, so I can’t eat any more spectacular food than I already do. My house is already big enough to hold everything I own, plus all my friends. My subcompact Scion hatchback can easily hold the whole family and our stuff, and exceed any legal speed limit. How could an even fancier car possibly make us any happier?...I’d like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So I’d rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness....
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/18/reader-case-study-the-black-hole-second-home/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/18/reader-case-study-the-black-hole-second-home/) ...Buying a second home is usually a bad financial proposition, because you are instantly creating an average 50% vacancy rate in each house. And that’s before accounting for the duplicate furniture, appliances, and all the commuting you’ll do between them. In business, idle resources are a red flag, and they should be in your personal life as well. Instead, focus on making your own house the one you want to live in, having more fun close to home, and renting vacation spots when you need them....
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The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.
That was literally the exact message I took from the blog. Lol.
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There are two issues here:
There's Pete buying a car he's wanted for years and there's MMM writing an article justifying consumerism.
I like the way you divided "Pete" and the "MMM" persona here. It's an interesting solution. MMM lately is closer to plain Pete, but early on it was more clearly a larger-than-life persona with a lot more bravado than Pete himself would personally display in interviews, for example. It would have been a cute workaround if this blog article were prefaced with "Special Guest Poster: Pete" or even bring back our short-lived friend "The Realist!" It would allow Pete to be transparent with his community while still allowing the "MMM" character to be a "pure" icon of "badassity".
Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?
Yeah, I remember the sentiments where Pete would be questioned about his uncommon frugality and respond that he in fact lives with an embarrassing or shameful degree of luxury already! The classic MMM articles sold the mindset and philosophy not merely as a path to wealth but as the correct way to live both for the planet and for your own happiness and well-being. Not a sacrifice, but the most fulfilling way of life. I do find it makes it harder to read the old articles and believe in that message to the same degree when the message has evolved over time. I definitely understand those who feel betrayed or disillusioned by "MMM", especially if they took the original philosophy deeply to heart, becoming an adherent of what MMM jokingly called his "cult" of frugality, and held Pete as the shining example and prophet of the One True Way to live. MMM even encouraged the mindset that non-adherents of the "doctrine" were "heretics": "clowns" or "suckas".
Of course, I don't begrudge Pete anything, and MMM owes nothing to anyone. But, I can't help but feel a growing disappointment in recent years that the self-appointed examplar of the message no longer embraces it. Maybe "convenience is a weakness that makes you a worse person" isn't a great truth of the universe spoken by the holy prophet. It's just something you tell yourself to get through the grind of the "accumulation phase". But I still want to believe there's more to the original message than that.
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There are two issues here:
There's Pete buying a car he's wanted for years and there's MMM writing an article justifying consumerism.
I like the way you divided "Pete" and the "MMM" persona here. It's an interesting solution. MMM lately is closer to plain Pete, but early on it was more clearly a larger-than-life persona with a lot more bravado than Pete himself would personally display in interviews, for example. It would have been a cute workaround if this blog article were prefaced with "Special Guest Poster: Pete" or even bring back our short-lived friend "The Realist!" It would allow Pete to be transparent with his community while still allowing the "MMM" character to be a "pure" icon of "badassity".
Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?
Yeah, I remember the sentiments where Pete would be questioned about his uncommon frugality and respond that he in fact lives with an embarrassing or shameful degree of luxury already! The classic MMM articles sold the mindset and philosophy not merely as a path to wealth but as the correct way to live both for the planet and for your own happiness and well-being. Not a sacrifice, but the most fulfilling way of life. I do find it makes it harder to read the old articles and believe in that message to the same degree when the message has evolved over time. I definitely understand those who feel betrayed or disillusioned by "MMM", especially if they took the original philosophy deeply to heart, becoming an adherent of what MMM jokingly called his "cult" of frugality, and held Pete as the shining example and prophet of the One True Way to live. MMM even encouraged the mindset that non-adherents of the "doctrine" were "heretics": "clowns" or "suckas".
Of course, I don't begrudge Pete anything, and MMM owes nothing to anyone. But, I can't help but feel a growing disappointment in recent years that the self-appointed examplar of the message no longer embraces it. Maybe "convenience is a weakness that makes you a worse person" isn't a great truth of the universe spoken by the holy prophet. It's just something you tell yourself to get through the grind of the "accumulation phase". But I still want to believe there's more to the original message than that.
To be fair, I don't actually see a conflict, but that's because of my particular way of living.
For me, I see it that frugality often produces more creative, interesting, healthier, superior outcomes.
There's no question that the vast majority of consumerism doesn't really improve one's quality of life.
That said, I see early retirement as an extremely expensive luxury, but it's not the only luxury worth saving for.
Frugality, for me, has opened up levels of luxury that I never thought possible in a middle class lifestyle, and not wasting money on literal crap frees up so much for spending on things that have a real impact, whether that's more free time or my recent $1000 pillow buying spree, which trust me, sounds crazy but was worth every penny in context.
As I've said many times, thanks to the influence of MMM, I'm not cheap, I'm just a snob about spending.
It is very true that very few luxuries are worth the premium you have to pay for them, and I've learned that being able to afford a lot of luxuries still doesn't make their value worthwhile.
But there are some that offer disproportionate value in terms of quality of life, and freeing up purchase power to easily buy them when they come up is, for me, the biggest benefit of frugality.
We eat rice and beans, do DIY, and minimize driving, etc, etc, etc so that we have the flexibility and freedom to work as much or as little as we want to AND to be able to pull the trigger when something spectacularly worth spending on comes along.
Do *I* think a Tesla is spectacularly worth spending on? Absolutely not. But I'm not Pete. He's wanted this for so long, it obviously means something significant to him. I couldn't care less about the experience of driving and owning a Tesla, but I am freakishly obsessed with the ocean and paid about the same amount so that I can spend my summers sitting around watching whales.
Would that be worth it to Pete? Obviously not, or he would have spent on it already.
The key is to truly know yourself and know what luxuries can actually substantially improve your quality of life. Being able to walk away from work is just one of those luxuries, but there are others.
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The key is to truly know yourself and know what luxuries can actually substantially improve your quality of life. Being able to walk away from work is just one of those luxuries, but there are others.
Great post Metalcat, I like this way of looking at things.
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For me, I see it that frugality often produces more creative, interesting, healthier, superior outcomes.
There's no question that the vast majority of consumerism doesn't really improve one's quality of life.
That said, I see early retirement as an extremely expensive luxury, but it's not the only luxury worth saving for.
Wow @Metalcat, That was a great summary and it's good to remember the early retirement is an absurd luxury many of us have chosen to purchase... Also thanks for reminding me that I need to go make some more beans :)
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Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/) ...Aren’t I Mr. Fancypants? No, actually I am not. This stuff isn’t anything to brag about. Although I am enjoying it at the moment, it is actually an indulgence of a weakness, and I had better watch myself....“I am Mr. Bigshot”, I thought to myself. “I sit in bigass cars..
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/) ... our current life is already more than enough. We don’t want to lose the challenge and the spice that is part of life right now. I have only one digestive system, so I can’t eat any more spectacular food than I already do. My house is already big enough to hold everything I own, plus all my friends. My subcompact Scion hatchback can easily hold the whole family and our stuff, and exceed any legal speed limit. How could an even fancier car possibly make us any happier?...I’d like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So I’d rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness....
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/18/reader-case-study-the-black-hole-second-home/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/18/reader-case-study-the-black-hole-second-home/) ...Buying a second home is usually a bad financial proposition, because you are instantly creating an average 50% vacancy rate in each house. And that’s before accounting for the duplicate furniture, appliances, and all the commuting you’ll do between them. In business, idle resources are a red flag, and they should be in your personal life as well. Instead, focus on making your own house the one you want to live in, having more fun close to home, and renting vacation spots when you need them....
I am not the same as I was ten years ago either. Many people do not aspire to preference stasis. Learning about your values and what makes you happy is not a bad thing.
Also, frugality is, like most things, a spectrum. Pete was never the most frugal person in the world. There's at least two billion people in China, India, and Africa who get by on less than he did, even in his most frugal period. A single instance of splurging (on something easily afforded, no less) does not a spendthrift make.
So, yes, this action is not consistent with certain absolutist statements Pete made in the last fifteen years. Those statements were things he probably believed at the time, or maybe felt, and thought would be edifying to his readers. And he was right. Many people, myself included, benefitted greatly from his insights on hedonism.
But, his views and preferences have changed, and now he finds that what he felt in the past is not quite as universal as he believed it to be at the time. He's human, in other words.
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When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE. MMM bought a fancy car. Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life. Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons. Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.
It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind. Even the idea of "know yourself" seems dubious...things I thought would never change in my life that felt like unchanging values have indeed changed from decade to decade so the most reasonable assumption going forward is I will indeed change again, sometimes drastically. I take the ideas from MMM and others that truly make me introspective about what it means to live a meaningful life and discard the other stuff that doesn't resonate. For instance, he posts a lot about DIY home improvement & repair. My personal torture box is poring over DIY YouTube videos trying to figure out how to do something and then spending my entire weekend cursing because everything goes completely went off the rails. I've just accepted that some DIY stuff is not for me and I prefer various other forms of voluntary hardship. I find I'd just rather use my FI status to pay someone to do those painful DIY projects and spend the weekend with my family on a hike.
But a still like reading some of the OG posts on the MMM blog...a lot of bangers that are timeless
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When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE. MMM bought a fancy car. Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life. Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons. Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.
It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind. Even the idea of "know yourself" seems dubious...things I thought would never change in my life that felt like unchanging values have indeed changed from decade to decade so the most reasonable assumption going forward is I will indeed change again, sometimes drastically. I take the ideas from MMM and others that truly make me introspective about what it means to live a meaningful life and discard the other stuff that doesn't resonate. For instance, he posts a lot about DIY home improvement & repair. My personal torture box is poring over DIY YouTube videos trying to figure out how to do something and then spending my entire weekend cursing because everything goes completely went off the rails. I've just accepted that some DIY stuff is not for me and I prefer various other forms of voluntary hardship. I find I'd just rather use my FI status to pay someone to do those painful DIY projects and spend the weekend with my family on a hike.
But a still like reading some of the OG posts on the MMM blog...a lot of bangers that are timeless
Consistency is the most overrated virtue. There are contexts where it is important, but in general it is overvalued in modern society.
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I dunno, I've recently been looking at EV cars because we are moving countries and a Tesla 3 is basically the same price as a Nissan Leaf*. Like, this doesn't seem like The Height Of Luxury for someone replacing a 20year old van that's been driven into the ground.
I guess in the frugality race to the bottom we are all sinners but I have no interest in casting the first stone.
*in New Zealand, prices in your country may differ
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When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE. MMM bought a fancy car. Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life. Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons. Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.
It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind...
Except one can't help wondering if
a) maybe they didn't change their mind and it was all a sham from the beginning
b) they are only fessing up to the parts they thing they will get caught at, which may be only the tip of the iceberg.
There are countless examples of popular swamis who ended up being defrocked for assorted violations of the very practices they preached.
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The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.
(https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-i-ve-been-involved-in-a-number-of-cults-both-as-a-leader-and-a-follower-you-have-more-creed-bratton-63-28-94.jpg)
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When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE. MMM bought a fancy car. Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life. Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons. Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.
It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind. Even the idea of "know yourself" seems dubious...things I thought would never change in my life that felt like unchanging values have indeed changed from decade to decade so the most reasonable assumption going forward is I will indeed change again, sometimes drastically. I take the ideas from MMM and others that truly make me introspective about what it means to live a meaningful life and discard the other stuff that doesn't resonate. For instance, he posts a lot about DIY home improvement & repair. My personal torture box is poring over DIY YouTube videos trying to figure out how to do something and then spending my entire weekend cursing because everything goes completely went off the rails. I've just accepted that some DIY stuff is not for me and I prefer various other forms of voluntary hardship. I find I'd just rather use my FI status to pay someone to do those painful DIY projects and spend the weekend with my family on a hike.
But a still like reading some of the OG posts on the MMM blog...a lot of bangers that are timeless
I don't frequent the blog much but RootOfGood seems to still be living the same ethos a decade into retirement and watching their stash more than double in the same time period. Ironically I wonder why they aren't spending more money. Ha!
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Except one can't help wondering if
a) maybe they didn't change their mind and it was all a sham from the beginning
b) they are only fessing up to the parts they thing they will get caught at, which may be only the tip of the iceberg.
There are countless examples of popular swamis who ended up being defrocked for assorted violations of the very practices they preached.
You might wonder if that but I think the balance of evidence is pretty clear.
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I wonder where the blog goes from here. Personally, I wish he would've quit while he was on top (like ERE did), a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies. The problem with publishing new posts from his 'rich' perspective is that this has become the Mustachianism message and drowns out what I thought was his most valuable early content...
I liked what Metalcat said about his Pete vs. MMM persona. MMM was intended to be an aspirational character hyperbolizing about environmentalism, stoicism, hardship, and independence to make valuable points. The blog is now about the regular guy behind the curtain who is rich and lives like other wealthy people do.
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I wonder where the blog goes from here. Personally, I wish he would've quit while he was on top (like ERE did), a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies. The problem with publishing new posts from his 'rich' perspective is that this has become the Mustachianism message and drowns out what I thought was his most valuable early content...
I liked what Metalcat said about his Pete vs. MMM persona. MMM was intended to be an aspirational character hyperbolizing about environmentalism, stoicism, hardship, and independence to make valuable points. The blog is now about the regular guy behind the curtain who is rich and lives like other wealthy people do.
That's the challenge. The recent entries absolutely damage his original brand. But I do recognize the value in showing how the person to created the MMM persona is changing as their FIRE journey continues. I think there would be interest from folks seeing how Pete's life has evolved but some type of arm's length language would help better preserve the MMM persona. I think people can read the blog and see both sides.
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a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies.
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If I stumbled upon MMM now like I did in 2014, as a not wealthy, young, dissatisfied professional and the first article I read was a self-justification on spending big bucks on a luxury vehicle I don't think I would have cared to finish the blog post let alone read any other blog entries.
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a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies.
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If I stumbled upon MMM now like I did in 2014, as a not wealthy, young, dissatisfied professional and the first article I read was a self-justification on spending big bucks on a luxury vehicle I don't think I would have cared to finish the blog post let alone read any other blog entries.
oh totally. I am not sure Pete understands this part, or just doesn't care. l am just disappointed MMM, *not Pete, ended up like he did from all his earlier posts. I mean a post about a f'ing brand new $50k car. All the other stuff in the latest post about learning to live a good life, not sweat about $7 bread, etc. Okay. I get those. Makes sense. But a whole new article about justifying a brand NEW car, too. Like @Metalcat sort of talked about, he could have just been Pete, bought the car, and not posted about it by keeping MMM separate from Pete. It seems there is some understanding here that people can change, do what the want, indulge in their choice of luxuries when they have the funds, etc. Could you imagine if the earlier MMM articles had a disclaimer at the bottom: "WARNING: in 2023 I will post relentlessly about buying a new car and I'll love it"?
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I remember articles about stoicism, learning to be happy with less, consuming fewer resources, and eschewing commercialism as being what initially drew me to the site. This seems like such a far departure from that message.
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I liked what Metalcat said about his Pete vs. MMM persona. MMM was intended to be an aspirational character hyperbolizing about environmentalism, stoicism, hardship, and independence to make valuable points. The blog is now about the regular guy behind the curtain who is rich and lives like other wealthy people do.
I wouldn't go that far. A new Tesla is definitely a luxury purchase, but unless Pete has made some big lifestyle upgrades I haven't heard about, he still leads a more modest life than the vast majority of people with his net worth.
Now, if he hires a personal chef or a private jet share...
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I’ll even go so far as to say I’m disappointed Pete is not more of a crazy environmental philanthropist’ now that he has the means and the platform. Warren Buffett isn’t perfect, but most people admire that he has kept ‘middle class’ tastes (at least persona wise), Gates has made a good name for himself with his active philanthropy, etc…. Pete doesn’t have to live up to my expectations, but I honestly thought wealthy world saving environmentalist or some such thing was where this was all eventually headed. Who knows, maybe this is his midlife crisis??
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It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.
In the end, none of this really matters. All of us here are small potatoes, including Pete.
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I dont have extensive knowledge about the FIRE blogosphere, but the most prominent ones, by force of being the most prominent ones, generally end up in a situation where what preached (live frugally, accumulate enough financial wealth, retire early, enjoy lifte) doesn't match what happens to themselves as the blogging about said things end up bringing in a fuckton of money in the most successful cases.
I don't really care what someone chooses to do with their own money and the purchase of a Tesla doesnt bother me (I drive one myself) but it at least shows that it can be diffuciult at young age to predict what your future self would like and what to spend money on and how much to spend. Life happens and people change.
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It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.
In the end, none of this really matters. All of us here are small potatoes, including Pete.
As a human who likes to read things on the internet, I agree with the bolded. That is what I would like to read.
As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.
But I've never been a fan of the Mr. Money Mustache persona, I've just appreciated the community (and migrated over here after the Dave Ramsey boards shut down).
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As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.
At least the dude can get some credit for admitting it. I alwats found the spending reports tad iffy as there were obv stuff omitted to make it look low and that you would spend money on if it wasn't part of a business and hence magically disappeared from personal spending.
So guess its "live frugally, amass financial wealth so you don't have to live frugally anymore" is the current message. A variant of it is "go big early, then chill" - if you accumulate a good stash early in life chances are good it will compound past your spending needs.
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But there are some that offer disproportionate value in terms of quality of life, and freeing up purchase power to easily buy them when they come up is, for me, the biggest benefit of frugality.
We eat rice and beans, do DIY, and minimize driving, etc, etc, etc so that we have the flexibility and freedom to work as much or as little as we want to AND to be able to pull the trigger when something spectacularly worth spending on comes along.
This feels right to me. We have our own dragon's den of riches as a result of frugality. But recently we moved to our favorite state (New Mexico) and bought an old house that's too big in a neighborhood that makes our hearts thump faster. We hadn't known someplace so perfect for us existed. We renovated the house to the point that we find it livable and beautiful. We spent more on this house than we have ever spent on anything in our lives. But we are still fine with money and we can continue to give away money to worthwhile causes. And even though Albuquerque isn't as cheap a housing market as Memphis was, it's still quite affordable.
Every night we walk outside into this beautiful neighborhood or walk down to the Bosque (the river path along the Rio Grande) and feel happy. It's reduced our spending on gas and a few other things. It's given us more opportunities for fitness without joining a gym. It fits all our books and games without a fuss. It provides a place for family and friends to stay when they come here. So those are the benefits.
On the other hand, I feel guilty about it if I think too hard. There are plenty of people who have so much less. There is a strong point to be made (and I've made it) that large houses in and of themselves are wasteful and harmful to the environment. We are doing what we can to minimize environmental weight (installing solar panels, moving toward xeriscaping, etc.) but it probably doesn't change the calculus much compared to living in an apartment instead of this house.
In the end, we decided our quality of life mattered more than being perfectly frugal or perfectly environmental. I'm ok with that. But I don't fool myself that it is mustachian.
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I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people.
It really boils down to a kind of math. Everything has a "happiness cost" (call it HC for short). It looks like this:
When you're poor/starting out/spending poorly: The HC of a new Tesla (you'll have to work several more years, less flexibility in the budget, living beyond your means, worry about getting it scratched, it represents a big chunk of your NW) is typically greater than the HC of driving an older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down). Buying the used car makes sense here.
When you're rich: The HC of a new Tesla (a tiny bit less certainty because your portfolio is a teeny bit smaller) is a lot lower than the HC of the older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down). Here, the Tesla makes sense, if your goal is to optimize happiness.
Note that the underlying premise of "optimizing for happiness" hasn't changed. But because the person's circumstances are different, so is the outcome. The lion's share of the MMM blog posts focussed on the first group, and for them, frugality absolutely is appropriate. Because it was such a dominant theme, it's understandable that people have confused the means (frugality) with the ends (happiness). Where the tool of frugality stops serving happiness, or actively impedes happiness (by inducing analysis paralysis (like the bread) or making you miss important life events or degrades relationships), it may be set aside.
Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands. Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time. That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement? Yep. I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.
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I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people.
Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands. Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time. That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement? Yep. I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.
Time is the most valuable resource that we have. That's why early retirement is so appealing. It's trading wasteful spending on stuff now for more time in the future. But buying a $50k+ Tesla isn't saving MMM any time. And it's no better environmentally than a less expensive EV. He can clearly afford the Tesla, so financial concerns aren't all that relevant. But many of his recent actions seem completely opposed to the environmentalism/conspicuous consumption focus of MMM's early blogging days. Lusting after the flashy toy, (at least in part to show off to others) is a fairly natural human desire. But MMM (and Pete if we're separating the two) would've ripped those actions and motivations apart.
It reads more and more as if all of the early blog posts were just mental gymnastics to reframe austerity and make it easier to get through the difficult accumulation phase rather than actual deeply held beliefs.
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I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people.
It really boils down to a kind of math. Everything has a "happiness cost" (call it HC for short). It looks like this:
When you're poor/starting out/spending poorly: The HC of a new Tesla (you'll have to work several more years, less flexibility in the budget, living beyond your means, worry about getting it scratched, it represents a big chunk of your NW) is typically greater than the HC of driving an older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down). Buying the used car makes sense here.
When you're rich: The HC of a new Tesla (a tiny bit less certainty because your portfolio is a teeny bit smaller) is a lot lower than the HC of the older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down). Here, the Tesla makes sense, if your goal is to optimize happiness.
Note that the underlying premise of "optimizing for happiness" hasn't changed. But because the person's circumstances are different, so is the outcome. The lion's share of the MMM blog posts focussed on the first group, and for them, frugality absolutely is appropriate. Because it was such a dominant theme, it's understandable that people have confused the means (frugality) with the ends (happiness). Where the tool of frugality stops serving happiness, or actively impedes happiness (by inducing analysis paralysis (like the bread) or making you miss important life events or degrades relationships), it may be set aside.
Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands. Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time. That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement? Yep. I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.
Extremely well put.
Jeff Bezo ages ago said he tried to optimize for regret minimization, looking back ten years in the future and wishing he had done something differently.
I try and optimize to minimize spending time on things I don't want to do. Which for me is most physical labor, and household chores. It also includes worrying about a car not starting, having to take a car into a dealership etc.
June will be the 10th anniversary of me driving a Tesla, (first the cheapest S, and now a pretty barebones 3). I still enjoy the instant torque, the amazing display, and the quiet. I also like the constant improvements via over the air updates. Plus the simple things it does, that for the life of me I don't understand why other car companies don't do. When I leave a car, I want the car to keep the lights on for a few minutes, I then want the car to shut itself off and lock the doors. I like the feeling of knowing that solar panels on my house provide all of the energy needed to run the house and also charge the car, which significantly reduces my carbon footprint.
Frugality is a virtue up to a point and if it makes you happy that's great, but for most people, it should be a means to end. It starts to become silly after a point. Intel cofounder Gordon Moore, looking for change for a quarter to use a pay phone (they cost a dime many decades ago) after he became a billionaire. It even can become dangerous, I once shared a ride with a guy to Lake Tahoe, who in order to save gas got and pushed his car during rush hour.
Looking back, I lost a girlfriend, because my frugality was probably excessive.
The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.
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The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.
This is rhetorical right?
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I guess I feel slightly less bad about my Tesla purchase now.
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I made it about 2 paragraphs into the blog post before I scrolled back up to see if it was posted on April 1st. I didn't bother finishing it.
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The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.
This is rhetorical right?
So if buying a new car slightly more expensive than average is a "ridiculous" luxury.
Than what adjective do you use to describe buying a car that cost more than $300,000 or $1 million?
How about $50 million Gulfstream?
What about 400' yacht, with two helipads and a submarine?.
There 15-17 million new cars/trucks, sold each year. For many people buying a new car is a frivolous luxury, but for many others, it is not, including Pete.
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I’ll even go so far as to say I’m disappointed Pete is not more of a crazy environmental philanthropist’ now that he has the means and the platform. Warren Buffett isn’t perfect, but most people admire that he has kept ‘middle class’ tastes (at least persona wise), Gates has made a good name for himself with his active philanthropy, etc…. Pete doesn’t have to live up to my expectations, but I honestly thought wealthy world saving environmentalist or some such thing was where this was all eventually headed. Who knows, maybe this is his midlife crisis??
I’m pretty sure that frugal environmentalist MMM would facepunch the hell out of YOLO Pete. I had a hard time slogging through the whole writeup. The mental dissonance of trying to keep reconcile early posts with this one required more doublethink than I could muster.
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This seems very simple to me, and I don't understand why so many are struggling to wrap their head around it.
His old van kicked the bucket. He needed a new vehicle. He purchased a new vehicle that will be optimal for accomplishing the things he needs it to accomplish. He spent less than 1% of his net worth on the purchase.
There is nothing anti-mustachian about this purchase within the context of his situation. Anti-mustachian would have been if he went out and bought a Tesla just for the sake of having one, without having any practical need for it to fill. He needed a new vehicle, he bought a new vehicle. With cash. And it will have absolutely no negative impact on his finances, or how he lives his life.
Some of y'all are talking as if he just went out and bought a gilded yacht. It's a car. A car that will efficiently do all the things he needs it for. Would it somehow be better if he had gone out and bought another $4500 minivan? What practical difference would that in any way make? The $45,000 difference is meaningless to his financial situation. It would serve the exact same function as the tesla, the only possible advantage is cost savings, which is meaningless to his situation.
I will consider criticizing Pete when he starts spending his money on things that add no value to his life. A replacement vehicle does not fit that criteria.
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It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.
As a human who likes to read things on the internet, I agree with the bolded. That is what I would like to read.
As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.
But I've never been a fan of the Mr. Money Mustache persona, I've just appreciated the community (and migrated over here after the Dave Ramsey boards shut down).
Quite audacious to be assuming/insisting that Pete is "struggling right now"
He certainly seems to be happy, and doing very well for himself. And I'm not just saying that because of the recent purchase.
I don't pretend to know Pete well at all (certainly not as well as those on this forum who know him personally), but I've had the opportunity to talk at length with him in person twice in the last couple years (once at CampFI and once at EconoME), and he certainly did not strike me as someone who is struggling. Quite the opposite, he gives off a palpable aura of positivity that is very contagious. Dude is living his best life as far as I can tell.
It's certainly not the place of anyone on this forum to speculate that this purchase signifies a "struggle" or "mid-life crisis", much less to suggest that he should publish an article admitting to such things just so you can feel better about his purchase.
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I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people.
It really boils down to a kind of math. Everything has a "happiness cost" (call it HC for short). It looks like this:
When you're poor/starting out/spending poorly: The HC of a new Tesla (you'll have to work several more years, less flexibility in the budget, living beyond your means, worry about getting it scratched, it represents a big chunk of your NW) is typically greater than the HC of driving an older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down). Buying the used car makes sense here.
When you're rich: The HC of a new Tesla (a tiny bit less certainty because your portfolio is a teeny bit smaller) is a lot lower than the HC of the older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down). Here, the Tesla makes sense, if your goal is to optimize happiness.
Note that the underlying premise of "optimizing for happiness" hasn't changed. But because the person's circumstances are different, so is the outcome. The lion's share of the MMM blog posts focussed on the first group, and for them, frugality absolutely is appropriate. Because it was such a dominant theme, it's understandable that people have confused the means (frugality) with the ends (happiness). Where the tool of frugality stops serving happiness, or actively impedes happiness (by inducing analysis paralysis (like the bread) or making you miss important life events or degrades relationships), it may be set aside.
Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands. Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time. That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement? Yep. I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.
Happiness should never really be a "goal," so to speak, in terms of spending. Some of the happiest folks on the planet (true happiness) have next to nothing. I've kind of learned myself that true happiness isn't a new car, bigger house or even a growing retirement nest egg. It's absolutely internal. It's being present in the now. The article on Stoicism really ties into this.
Big purchases like this get the heart pumping for a bit. You get excited. But eventually that wears off. If this is a purchase to optimize happiness, it doesn't really make sense to me. It seems more like it just fills a desire and/or need.
DH is still working while I am mostly retired (do carpentry work on the side occasionally, like Pete, HA!) We have some desirable travel plans in the future once our youngest is through school and DH retires. At that point we may splurge on a newer, more expensive vehicle that will fill a need in our travel plans. Sure we'll be excited but we'll still be the same amount of happiness after the purchase as before. I hope!
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It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.
As a human who likes to read things on the internet, I agree with the bolded. That is what I would like to read.
As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.
But I've never been a fan of the Mr. Money Mustache persona, I've just appreciated the community (and migrated over here after the Dave Ramsey boards shut down).
Quite audacious to be assuming/insisting that Pete is "struggling right now"
He certainly seems to be happy, and doing very well for himself. And I'm not just saying that because of the recent purchase.
I don't pretend to know Pete well at all (certainly not as well as those on this forum who know him personally), but I've had the opportunity to talk at length with him in person twice in the last couple years (once at CampFI and once at EconoME), and he certainly did not strike me as someone who is struggling. Quite the opposite, he gives off a palpable aura of positivity that is very contagious. Dude is living his best life as far as I can tell.
It's certainly not the place of anyone on this forum to speculate that this purchase signifies a "struggle" or "mid-life crisis", much less to suggest that he should publish an article admitting to such things just so you can feel better about his purchase.
Excellent point. FWIW- when I commented it wasn't so much about the mid-life crisis aspect, but associating the word "struggle" with the idea of being human.
Back in the earlier days of the blog and forum, convenience spending was for "clowns" and was considered an "exploding volcano of wastefulness" and once you "realized that truth" you would achieve happiness. And, let's be honest, MMM and earlier devotees would pull no punches in telling you why you were a chump if some convenience spending popped up in your budget.
10 years later MMM has written a post where he is saying his convenience is okay, because he can afford it. This convenience spending is adding to his happiness.
I think there are some of us who have been on the forum a very long time, who have been accused of "softening" the forum, but have simply been saying what MMM is now saying. Sometimes doing it the hard way is a pain and even wears us out. We are human, and sometimes a little convenience (as long as you can afford it), is the thing that helps you keep going.
But instead of just saying "Hey, I'm human, and my thoughts have changed." We instead get a post where a clown car is framed as a frugal purchase.
As previously stated, I've never been into the persona in general, mostly because it is terribly unbalanced and a little mean. So it isn't shocking that I would also be annoyed with this new post :). But also, I find it hypocritical now, in a way I didn't a decade ago.
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The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.
This is rhetorical right?
So if buying a new car slightly more expensive than average is a "ridiculous" luxury.
Than what adjective do you use to describe buying a car that cost more than $300,000 or $1 million?
How about $50 million Gulfstream?
What about 400' yacht, with two helipads and a submarine?.
There 15-17 million new cars/trucks, sold each year. For many people buying a new car is a frivolous luxury, but for many others, it is not, including Pete.
Ah, silly me, I thought we were talking about the same MMM who has talked about how typical middle class spenidng is a fountain of waste for most of the last decade.
I must be thinking of a different blogger.
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The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.
This is rhetorical right?
So if buying a new car slightly more expensive than average is a "ridiculous" luxury.
Than what adjective do you use to describe buying a car that cost more than $300,000 or $1 million?
How about $50 million Gulfstream?
What about 400' yacht, with two helipads and a submarine?.
There 15-17 million new cars/trucks, sold each year. For many people buying a new car is a frivolous luxury, but for many others, it is not, including Pete.
Ah, silly me, I thought we were talking about the same MMM who has talked about how typical middle class spenidng is a fountain of waste for most of the last decade.
I must be thinking of a different blogger.
You were. MMM-classic was a different blogger than MMM-yolo.
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About seven years ago, I had a talk with Pete. I explained to him that I’d retired some years before, and that I’d recently bought a new car. He said he had no facepunches for me because I was already retired, was still living well within my means and was living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people. We all see that Pete is still living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people, despite buying ONE lifestyle binge. As Paula Pant says, you can afford anything, just not everything. Once you have dialled in a frugal lifestyle, it’s amazing how much you save, and how you can afford the occasional lifestyle binge.
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About seven years ago, I had a talk with Pete. I explained to him that I’d retired some years before, and that I’d recently bought a new car. He said he had no facepunches for me because I was already retired, was still living well within my means and was living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people. We all see that Pete is still living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people, despite buying ONE lifestyle binge. As Paula Pant says, you can afford anything, just not everything. Once you have dialled in a frugal lifestyle, it’s amazing how much you save, and how you can afford the occasional lifestyle binge.
Living within your means just means having enough money to cover all expenses. Being frugal is a bit more subjective but does entail one spending very little and an absence of luxury. No doubt Pete is still living within his means but it certainly doesn't seem that a $52K luxury car fits with the frugal concept. I don't how you quantify "more frugal than most." The average household expenditure in 2021 was $67K.
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My understanding is that outside somewhere like New York city it is more or less impossible for most people to live a reasonably active and comfortable life in the USA without access to a road vehicle of some sort. Is that right?
Anyone living more than an absolutely bare bones life in the USA is using up more of the planet's resources than can be replaced in their lifetime, so everyone there is more or less an environmental vandal (the same is true of almost everyone living in the G7 but it's more true of the USA than most).
Actually, given the federal and State government's use of environmental resources everyone in the USA is several times over their lifetime environmental budget before taking into account their personal uses.
The extent to which this planet is fucked is easy to ignore, of course. Until it isn't, which is probably not until our comfortable lives become immediately unsustainable.
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You were. MMM-classic was a different blogger than MMM-yolo.
He is. There aren't many benefits of getting older, but realizing the world isn't as black and white as you thought it was when you are younger is one of them.
I'd like to think that Pete having spent a number of years, without a 9-5 to job, having accumulated enough wealth that money is significantly less important than it was a dozen years ago, and having been through a divorce, that was partly due to conflicts about lifestyle, he has developed a more nuanced view about spending and the limits of frugality.
When the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do sir?
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Back in the earlier days of the blog and forum, convenience spending was for "clowns" and was considered an "exploding volcano of wastefulness" and once you "realized that truth" you would achieve happiness. And, let's be honest, MMM and earlier devotees would pull no punches in telling you why you were a chump if some convenience spending popped up in your budget.
10 years later MMM has written a post where he is saying his convenience is okay, because he can afford it. This convenience spending is adding to his happiness.
I think there are some of us who have been on the forum a very long time, who have been accused of "softening" the forum, but have simply been saying what MMM is now saying. Sometimes doing it the hard way is a pain and even wears us out. We are human, and sometimes a little convenience (as long as you can afford it), is the thing that helps you keep going.
But instead of just saying "Hey, I'm human, and my thoughts have changed." We instead get a post where a clown car is framed as a frugal purchase.
As previously stated, I've never been into the persona in general, mostly because it is terribly unbalanced and a little mean. So it isn't shocking that I would also be annoyed with this new post :). But also, I find it hypocritical now, in a way I didn't a decade ago.
I only came across the blog a few years ago, but I have read every single article and I don't think this most recent post is as out of character as so many are suggesting.
Yes, MMM always criticized clown car purchases, but I think if you look at the specific instances in which he describes clown cars, you will find that they do not really apply to his recent Tesla purchase.
When MMM talked about clown car purchases in the past, he pretty much always talked about them in the context of people who aren't FI buying super expensive vehicles that are designed for functions that will never be utilized by the owner. i.e. big gigantic trucks that never haul anything, huge 7 passenger SUVs for soccer moms with 2 kids, or high performance sports cars for people who only drive on public roads. I can not recall any posts criticizing a retired millionaire with only one vehicle, which happens to be a mid-high end EV.
If Pete were filling a four car garage with high end EVs, trucks, and sports cars I would understand all the confusion and disappointment, but one mid-tier Tesla and nothing else? Seriously? This is probably the first time in the dude's life that he has spent upwards of $20k on anything other than a house, and he's been a millionaire for longer than the blog has existed. He's still living an extremely Mustachian lifestyle, with spending far below that of all but the most extremely frugal of people. He just purchased a single new EV, which he will get extensive value and use out of.
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I've been thinking about this some more. If Pete had never started MMM he would almost certainly still had means to buy this model Y without going back to work. In fact, without the MMM persona in mind he might very well have bought a model 3 four years ago when he posted about it.
If the latest post is really bothering you, go back and read the first half dozen posts where he switches back and forth between MMM and the realist and then just read the last post as written by the realist. I just can't see holding it against him that his witty alter-ego turned out to be wildly more popular online than the car nerd. By creating a witty blog that caught enough attention for me to find it, and establishing this community Pete saved me thousands of dollars and at least a couple years of working. Thank you Pete!
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My 2 cents,
He's putting his money towards Electric vehicles, That's why he can't go 10 years old and beat up. When you think about his earlier posts about how a van is the best option for moving things.... It's sure as hell not the cheapest option when you're looking at electric vehicles.
The Tesla gives him a vehicle that he can road trip, car camp, pull a trailer, and is fully electric.
Sure he could have gotten a used one, but realistically, there aren't that many, nor is it that much cheaper on the used car market.
The goal is to get the best vehicule without paying too much, and Pete's goal was 100% electric. There aren't that many choices below that price range for vehicules that can pull a trailer with all the stuff he throws in there...
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This is probably the first time in the dude's life that he has spent upwards of $20k on anything other than a house
Not really the first time. There was the Nissan Leaf (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/the-nissan-leaf-experiment/), the Detatched Studio (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/01/24/diy-studio-building/) and of course the MMM Headquarters building (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/08/02/introducing-the-mmm-world-headquarters-building/). I have no idea about his divorce agreements/settlements but he did buy a 2nd house after getting divorced. And of course pre-MMM days he tried his hand at running a small home building company that he did a blog post about. That certainly required greater than $20K in spending. He of course has done well despite the ups and downs of all this and can certainly buy anything he feels like buying. But he certainly has spent well north of $20K multiple times.
He's still living an extremely Mustachian lifestyle, with spending far below that of all but the most extremely frugal of people.
This seems to be a point of contention on the forum these days. Understandably so. It's gone from cut your own hair, monitor your energy bills, don't use a dryer, bike everywhere and face punches to which new Tesla should I buy? And somehow it's still being considered "mustachian" and "spending well below frugal people." It makes sense that some folks are seeking a bit more of the original MMM brand. The new MMM brand of frugal seems to be geared more towards very wealthy folks. Admittedly I'm sure many folks who implemented many of the strategies early on probably are very wealthy. So perhaps this is just the natural progression taking shape?
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People grow, change, and continue to learn. At least, I hope we do.
I understand people who were attracted to this place because they like things that the blog said- and now it says something that seems at odds and they don't like it and they are disappointed.
Spending money on a house, or a car, or any other specific line item does not undo, or negate anything that has been previously said; it's an evolution in real time to deal with real life circumstances. If you disagree, perhaps consider what circumstances you would AGREE to; i.e. what information would make this "ok"-?
I also think that a philosophical change in tone is natural, and honest when faced with the reality of too many resources. I think it will be important for many who ran endless firecalc simulations to develop a mindful plan of what to do with "way more than they planned."
I for one, can't imagine the scrutiny and visibility that must come along with the success of the blog. I admire the insight into his current mind. Many of us may find it helpful in the years to come.
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It's gone from cut your own hair, monitor your energy bills, don't use a dryer, bike everywhere and face punches to which new Tesla should I buy?
I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive- partly because: I (still) cut my own hair, I (still) monitor my energy usage, I (still) don't use a dryer (except a bit in the winter), I (still) bike everywhere I can; I (still) routinely keep a friendly facepunch ready for myself; and I also have been thinking of purchasing a Tesla.
The new MMM brand of frugal seems to be geared more towards very wealthy folks.
I think the message was always geared towards very wealthy people; even though the strategies will work for anyone. It's just it initially attracted people who were already very in line with the philosophy- by softening the tone, it has reached the target audience; basically the very rich are the ones who are doing the most to destroy our planet.
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...
He's still living an extremely Mustachian lifestyle, with spending far below that of all but the most extremely frugal of people.
This seems to be a point of contention on the forum these days. Understandably so. It's gone from cut your own hair, monitor your energy bills, don't use a dryer, bike everywhere and face punches to which new Tesla should I buy? And somehow it's still being considered "mustachian" and "spending well below frugal people." It makes sense that some folks are seeking a bit more of the original MMM brand. The new MMM brand of frugal seems to be geared more towards very wealthy folks. Admittedly I'm sure many folks who implemented many of the strategies early on probably are very wealthy. So perhaps this is just the natural progression taking shape?
I'm not even sure what the 'new' MMM brand is geared toward -
We both realized that we were being too cheap with ourselves, and we needed to work on it. And we came up with a set of three ideas that should hopefully work together to help us have more fun with our life savings, while we are still alive:
the Minimum Spending Budget
the Dedicated Money Wasting Account
and the Splurge Accountability Buddy
There's a 'race from 2 to 4 million and beyond (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-from-$2m-to-$3m/msg3131344/#msg3131344)' thread that gets a lot of posts along the lines of - I'm well beyond FI, but I'm still spending ridiculously low amounts. I guess I should spend more, but life is pretty great.
When the guy at the top has been posting this same message then suddenly posts about how to force himself to spend more, you've got a reason to be confused. I'm still holding out hope his next posts are more in line with the original brand that I relate to (i.e. who cares how far beyond FI I am, I still have a responsibility to leave this planet in respectable shape, and I certainly don't need to consume for a squirt of dopamine just because I can afford it)...
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You were. MMM-classic was a different blogger than MMM-yolo.
He is. There aren't many benefits of getting older, but realizing the world isn't as black and white as you thought it was when you are younger is one of them.
I'd like to think that Pete having spent a number of years, without a 9-5 to job, having accumulated enough wealth that money is significantly less important than it was a dozen years ago, and having been through a divorce, that was partly due to conflicts about lifestyle, he has developed a more nuanced view about spending and the limits of frugality.
When the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do sir?
Woah. Hold on. MMM has been pretty darned rich for a pretty long time now. Certianly rich enough to buy a Tesla with zero impact to his finances. What 'facts' exactly have changed?
We're not talking about a dozen years ago. He was writing about how he had a personal justification machine that kept telling him to buy stuff that wasn't necessary and that there was no need to buy a new Tesla in 2019! And this was after his divorce was completely finalized.
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@GuitarStv I think the change in material facts is that his van died.
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@GuitarStv I think the change in material facts is that his van died.
Exactly.
Also the Model Y wasn't released until 2021 and the Model 3 was hard to get until 2019.
The Model S and X are huge cars, and the sheer size and weight, and luxurious options, really undercut the save the planet message. I'm much happier with my Model 3 than the Model S, for many reasons. Primarily, because it was overkill for my needs. Sure there was one time I hauled 3,500 pounds of tile flooring up 1,100 feet on the 10% grade road. But most of the time I haul an extra ton of unneeded mass up my hill. (Regenerative braking only recovered about 1/2 the energy)
Model 3 and Y are the size of most other compact cars or small SUVs, the Y is about 600 lbs heavier than a Leaf and has a virtually identical MPGe rating.
I bet if bought a Leaf instead of Tesla, the face punches would be far less.
But then Elon Telsa hatred is pretty irrational.
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But then Elon hatred is pretty irrational.
No no, there are plenty of rational reasons to hate Elon.
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But then Elon hatred is pretty irrational.
No no, there are plenty of rational reasons to hate Elon.
You are right, I should have said Tesla. I'm sure at least 90% of Tesla's hate is actually Elon hate and why I'm far more of an admirer than a hater of the man. He sure says and does dumb things at times.
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Maybe when DH and I retire, we'll buy weekly lottery tickets. Or tickets any time the jackpot is over $100m (so an estimated take home of about $35m after lump sum and taxes). Afterall, we'll be able to afford it. If we win, we can do a metric ton of good with that money. (We would not be buying a Tesla, even then, I suspect!)
If When we don't win, the $500 ($10 a week) certainly won't make a meaningful difference in our existence.
Based on the new definitions, this seems like a pretty Mustachian (or is it Pete-iful? Maybe we need a new adjective!) and frugal purchase.
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Maybe when DH and I retire, we'll buy weekly lottery tickets. Or tickets any time the jackpot is over $100m (so an estimated take home of about $35m after lump sum and taxes). Afterall, we'll be able to afford it. If we win, we can do a metric ton of good with that money. (We would not be buying a Tesla, even then, I suspect!) If When we don't win, the $500 ($10 a week) certainly won't make a meaningful difference in our existence.
Based on the new definitions, this seems like a pretty Mustachian (or is it Pete-iful? Maybe we need a new adjective!) and frugal purchase.
@Villanelle , while I did chuckle at this (thanks for the smile), I don't think buying lottery tix is analogous to buying bread or replacing a car. Maybe you all are car-free (and if you are, kudos to you!!) but if you aren't what do you plan to do when your vehicle is too unreliable/expensive to justify keeping?
*Edited* Just wanted to add, I think my question really revolves around "what was he supposed to do?" Is the burn more from the Tesla/Musk hate? Or is it the sense of him saying "it's ok to have a few nice things..." ?
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Maybe when DH and I retire, we'll buy weekly lottery tickets. Or tickets any time the jackpot is over $100m (so an estimated take home of about $35m after lump sum and taxes). Afterall, we'll be able to afford it. If we win, we can do a metric ton of good with that money. (We would not be buying a Tesla, even then, I suspect!) If When we don't win, the $500 ($10 a week) certainly won't make a meaningful difference in our existence.
Based on the new definitions, this seems like a pretty Mustachian (or is it Pete-iful? Maybe we need a new adjective!) and frugal purchase.
@Villanelle , while I did chuckle at this (thanks for the smile), I don't think buying lottery tix is analogous to buying bread or replacing a car. Maybe you all are car-free (and if you are, kudos to you!!) but if you aren't what do you plan to do when your vehicle is too unreliable/expensive to justify keeping?
*Edited* Just wanted to add, I think my question really revolves around "what was he supposed to do?" Is the burn more from the Tesla/Musk hate? Or is it the sense of him saying "it's ok to have a few nice things..." ?
For direction on "what he was supposed to do", you could go to older posts where he talks about buying modest (used, though I know at the moment that might not be as frugal) used vehicles. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I'm pretty sure he addressed that specifically and repeatedly.
When my car needs to be replaced, I'll do what I did last time I needed a new car. Last time, I bought a used, no-frills Corolla.
But really, it's not so much about just the car. It's about the fact that I believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that old-MM would mock and shame new-Pete. He was kinda a judgmental prick about his delivery in many things, even if I agreed with the message. Yet now suddenly he gives (and maybe expects) grace he never gave anyone else. When others wanted fancy things, they were wasteful spendypants who needed face punches. But when he wants them, it's different.
I agree there's room for change, and that changing your mind doesn't make you a hypocrite. But when your brand was "face punching" people who did pretty much the same thing (IMO, I guess) what you are now doing, it seems like maybe having enough humility to at least address it head on would be nice. Pete/MMM doesn't owe anyone anything, of course, but I think it's natural that people will notice and call it out. His brand was no-holds barred criticism of spending decisions; should he be exempt from that?
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To be fair, back in 2016 MMM himself (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/) suggested a Tesla as being a totally reasonable vehicle for high net worth individuals.
Of course by that standard I should go buy a Model S, the mere thought of which is horrifying. So maybe we should increase that number a bit for inflation? So 2.5M?
Then in 2019 MMM posted about how he really really really (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/05/08/tesla-procrastination/) wants a Tesla but he's trying to put it off as long as possible. Which, four years later, he seems to have accomplished well.
So I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say that the newest article is tremendously at odds with his historical perspective.
Honestly, I find it a lot more jarring when forum members talk about freely spending a third of their total net worth on vehicles and generally don't receive much (or any) criticism.
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This is probably the first time in the dude's life that he has spent upwards of $20k on anything other than a house
Not really the first time. There was the Nissan Leaf (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/the-nissan-leaf-experiment/), the Detatched Studio (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/01/24/diy-studio-building/) and of course the MMM Headquarters building (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/08/02/introducing-the-mmm-world-headquarters-building/). I have no idea about his divorce agreements/settlements but he did buy a 2nd house after getting divorced. And of course pre-MMM days he tried his hand at running a small home building company that he did a blog post about. That certainly required greater than $20K in spending. He of course has done well despite the ups and downs of all this and can certainly buy anything he feels like buying. But he certainly has spent well north of $20K multiple times.
He's still living an extremely Mustachian lifestyle, with spending far below that of all but the most extremely frugal of people.
This seems to be a point of contention on the forum these days. Understandably so. It's gone from cut your own hair, monitor your energy bills, don't use a dryer, bike everywhere and face punches to which new Tesla should I buy? And somehow it's still being considered "mustachian" and "spending well below frugal people." It makes sense that some folks are seeking a bit more of the original MMM brand. The new MMM brand of frugal seems to be geared more towards very wealthy folks. Admittedly I'm sure many folks who implemented many of the strategies early on probably are very wealthy. So perhaps this is just the natural progression taking shape?
The Nissan Leaf was purchased for under $14k, as per the article that you linked.
The Detached Studio was a $30k add on to his existing house, which all but certainly increased the property's value by more than what it cost to build. I would consider this to fall under "spending money on a house". Even if you do want to consider it a personal expense, it still almost certainly ended up increasing his net worth.
Same goes with the MMM HQ, which was more of a community donation than a personal expense, and still both created a source of income and increased his net worth.
I'm also not sure what "second house" you're referring to? He has certainly bought many houses over the years, but to my knowledge he has never had more than one personal home at any given time. He has owned multiple houses for the purpose of renting some out, but those are passive investments, not spendypants purchases.
None of these examples are in any way anti-mustachian when you actually look at them beyond the surface level. They aren't spendypants behavior. This most recent purchase is the first time that I am aware of that MMM has spent a large sum on something for personal enjoyment. And even that is stretching it considering A) $20k is by no means a large sum comparative to his net worth, and B) he's not buying it simply for personal enjoyment - he actually needs a vehicle and this will be filling that need.
Saying that the blog has gone from "cut your own hair" to "which new Tesla should I buy" is simply a disingenuous strawman argument. He isn't saying that, and anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty knows that's not at all what he's advocating for. I'm still early in my pursuit of FIRE and by no means very wealthy, and I still feel able to relate and learn from the articles MMM is publishing. I feel like anyone who feels differently is probably just consciously or subconsciously looking for a reason to be critical of things.
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@GuitarStv I think the change in material facts is that his van died.
Exactly.
Also the Model Y wasn't released until 2021 and the Model 3 was hard to get until 2019.
The Model S and X are huge cars, and the sheer size and weight, and luxurious options, really undercut the save the planet message. I'm much happier with my Model 3 than the Model S, for many reasons. Primarily, because it was overkill for my needs. Sure there was one time I hauled 3,500 pounds of tile flooring up 1,100 feet on the 10% grade road. But most of the time I haul an extra ton of unneeded mass up my hill. (Regenerative braking only recovered about 1/2 the energy)
Model 3 and Y are the size of most other compact cars or small SUVs, the Y is about 600 lbs heavier than a Leaf and has a virtually identical MPGe rating.
I bet if bought a Leaf instead of Tesla, the face punches would be far less.
But then Elon Telsa hatred is pretty irrational.
Oh. His van died. Of course. Lemme see if I can remember the purchase specs of the van . . .
At this stage with plenty in the bank, I have grown soft and have a bit more truck than I need. It’s a 1999 Honda van with 140,000 miles on it. I bought it for $4,800 four years ago, and current market value is maybe 3 grand.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/)
Is this really a reasonable reasonable replacement?
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To be fair, back in 2016 MMM himself (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/) suggested a Tesla as being a totally reasonable vehicle for high net worth individuals.
Of course by that standard I should go buy a Model S, the mere thought of which is horrifying. So maybe we should increase that number a bit for inflation? So 2.5M?
Then in 2019 MMM posted about how he really really really (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/05/08/tesla-procrastination/) wants a Tesla but he's trying to put it off as long as possible. Which, four years later, he seems to have accomplished well.
So I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say that the newest article is tremendously at odds with his historical perspective.
Heck, he's talked about wanting to buy a Tesla as far back as 2012 (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/):
I write about bikes pretty often, so I must be one of those wacky car-free people right? Wrong again! I actually love cars and am a closet gearhead. Throwing aside practicality, I would own an all-electric Tesla Model Y (a practical 7-passenger crossover which also just happens to be one of the fastest cars in the world)...
Even if a new $52,000 Tesla isn't a frugal purchase, it's something he's had his eye on for years. I'm more inclined to extend him grace on the grounds that this is the fulfillment of a long-held desire, rather than something he spontaneously decided to buy because he's rich and this is the kind of car rich people have.
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At this stage with plenty in the bank, I have grown soft and have a bit more truck than I need. It’s a 1999 Honda van with 140,000 miles on it. I bought it for $4,800 four years ago, and current market value is maybe 3 grand.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/)
Is this really a reasonable reasonable replacement?
Yeah, I'd say it's pretty reasonable for a guy to spend <1% of his net worth on a car he's been dreaming of and denying himself for more than a decade. There are a few who self-deny harder than that, but not many.
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To be fair, back in 2016 MMM himself (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/) suggested a Tesla as being a totally reasonable vehicle for high net worth individuals.
Good citation. It even explicitly references the duality of his person and persona early in the post as well.
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At this stage with plenty in the bank, I have grown soft and have a bit more truck than I need. It’s a 1999 Honda van with 140,000 miles on it. I bought it for $4,800 four years ago, and current market value is maybe 3 grand.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/)
Is this really a reasonable reasonable replacement?
Assuming MMM has about a $10m net worth (best guess), he spent about .5% of his net worth on this purchase. If I were to spend the same percentage of my ~$100k net worth on a car, it would be a $500 car.
If I could get a decent replacement vehicle for only $500, I would consider that pretty damn reasonable.
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At this stage with plenty in the bank, I have grown soft and have a bit more truck than I need. It’s a 1999 Honda van with 140,000 miles on it. I bought it for $4,800 four years ago, and current market value is maybe 3 grand.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/)
Is this really a reasonable reasonable replacement?
Assuming MMM has about a $10m net worth (best guess), he spent about .5% of his net worth on this purchase. If I were to spend the same percentage of my ~$100k net worth on a car, it would be a $500 car.
If I could get a decent replacement vehicle for only $500, I would consider that pretty damn reasonable.
At his age he should only be spending 3% of investments, so adding in another 1/2 percent is significant.
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At his age he should only be spending 3% of investments, so adding in another 1/2 percent is significant.
I don't think he's planning on buying a Tesla each year. Without amortization this conversation makes no sense.
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@Villanelle thank you for your thoughtful reply; I agree with you that it seems to align with a consistent (positive) view he has had of electric cars as being a responsible step for those with the means.
I also agree with you that it is tough to reconcile that with the previous attitude towards others on the things that they think are "worth it..." (whatever that means.) I think that much has been made of solving the "money" problem- and the joy of frugality; which makes any type of conspicuous consumption seem jarring and out of alignment with the philosophy.
I also really agree with you regarding the idea of spending a large portion of net worth on a depreciating asset is deserving of pushback in these parts.
At his age he should only be spending 3% of investments, so adding in another 1/2 percent is significant.
His last van lasted 25 years, so I think you could probably depreciate it over that timeline making the cost insignificant.
Now this IS interesting:
Heck, he's talked about wanting to buy a Tesla as far back as 2012 (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/):
I write about bikes pretty often, so I must be one of those wacky car-free people right? Wrong again! I actually love cars and am a closet gearhead. Throwing aside practicality, I would own an all-electric Tesla Model Y (a practical 7-passenger crossover which also just happens to be one of the fastest cars in the world)...
That's super weird- Mention of a Tesla Y in an article written back in 2012??! Something funny going on there....
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At this stage with plenty in the bank, I have grown soft and have a bit more truck than I need. It’s a 1999 Honda van with 140,000 miles on it. I bought it for $4,800 four years ago, and current market value is maybe 3 grand.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/)
Is this really a reasonable reasonable replacement?
Assuming MMM has about a $10m net worth (best guess), he spent about .5% of his net worth on this purchase. If I were to spend the same percentage of my ~$100k net worth on a car, it would be a $500 car.
If I could get a decent replacement vehicle for only $500, I would consider that pretty damn reasonable.
At his age he should only be spending 3% of investments, so adding in another 1/2 percent is significant.
So only $300,000 a year? I guess he'd better buy a few more Teslas then, or he's going to come in way underbudget!
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The Nissan Leaf was purchased for under $14k, as per the article that you linked.
The Detached Studio was a $30k add on to his existing house, which all but certainly increased the property's value by more than what it cost to build. I would consider this to fall under "spending money on a house". Even if you do want to consider it a personal expense, it still almost certainly ended up increasing his net worth.
Same goes with the MMM HQ, which was more of a community donation than a personal expense, and still both created a source of income and increased his net worth.
I'm also not sure what "second house" you're referring to? He has certainly bought many houses over the years, but to my knowledge he has never had more than one personal home at any given time. He has owned multiple houses for the purpose of renting some out, but those are passive investments, not spendypants purchases.
This is probably the first time in the dude's life that he has spent upwards of $20k on anything other than a house
Whether these purchases may or may not return a value at some point in the future does not negate upfront cost of over $20K.
Saying that the blog has gone from "cut your own hair" to "which new Tesla should I buy" is simply a disingenuous strawman argument.
It's actually a straw-man to misquote me and then claim it's a straw-man. I was referring to the forum, not the blog.
This seems to be a point of contention on the forum these days. Understandably so. It's gone from cut your own hair, monitor your energy bills, don't use a dryer, bike everywhere and face punches to which new Tesla should I buy?
None of these examples are in any way anti-mustachian when you actually look at them beyond the surface level. They aren't spendypants behavior.
Depends really. For someone with Pete's wealth you have a valid point. For the average Joe Shmo starting out on their FIRE journey or still in accumulation phase, a $52K luxury car would absolutely be considered spendypants behavior and anti-mustachian.
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At this stage with plenty in the bank, I have grown soft and have a bit more truck than I need. It’s a 1999 Honda van with 140,000 miles on it. I bought it for $4,800 four years ago, and current market value is maybe 3 grand.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/04/28/what-does-your-work-truck-say-about-you/)
Is this really a reasonable reasonable replacement?
Assuming MMM has about a $10m net worth (best guess), he spent about .5% of his net worth on this purchase. If I were to spend the same percentage of my ~$100k net worth on a car, it would be a $500 car.
If I could get a decent replacement vehicle for only $500, I would consider that pretty damn reasonable.
What you can comfortably afford is completely beside the point. MMM has never advocated buying shit just because you can afford it. That's like the most simplistic and basic intro level of mustachianism - make a budget and keep to it. He has always advocated for a more advanced approach from the realization that spending typically doesn't equate to happiness.
Last in my own miniature summary of Stoicism, I’d like to point out the difference between Pleasure and Happiness. An alternative philosophy called Hedonism suggests that to have the best life, you simply maximize pleasure. But Stoics reject that, since pleasure is just one dimension of true happiness. Eating cupcakes is pleasurable, as is sex, sleeping in, drinking wine, and watching TV. Higher level pleasures might be had by driving a fancy car for the first few times, receiving compliments from important people or having millions of people ask for your autograph. But each pleasure very rapidly wears out if overused, and the Hedonist is left scrambling desperately higher up the pyramid of earthly pleasures until he runs out of money or health. Meanwhile, by focusing on Happiness – the underlying signal delivered by Pleasure, the Stoic can make it a much more consistent and tranquil companion in his life.
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/)
Well, it turns out that when a person jumps to a new level of material convenience, he loses the ability to enjoy the things he previously thought were pretty neat. A cold Bud Light was once a true delight after a work day for the lottery winner, but after the win he quits the job and takes up high-end scotch, poured by a personal butler. Both serve the same purpose, and the pleasure is about the same. Similarly, when moving down the hedonic scale, either voluntarily or involuntarily, we can learn to appreciate simpler things with just as much gusto as we would have appreciated more expensive things. I truly love the sound of the wheels of my bike slicing through the quiet wind on an open road, just as much as I enjoyed the whirring sound of the gear-driven camshafts and the rich tuned exhaust note of my old VFR800 motorcycle.
This happiness averaging also explains why we the people of the most materially abundant country in the world, the United States, where the gas is the cheapest and the cars are the fanciest and the houses are the biggest, are actually quite far below other less wealthy countries in the world when we evaluate our own happiness. Depending on the survey, you’ll see countries like Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Canada, Bhutan, Mexico, Cuba, and others kicking our ass, and the US rarely ranks above #17 on the list.
It is intuitively hard to believe these things at first, when you have been raised as a consumer. My cravings for the crisply carved seats and slickety smooth gearshift of a Mini Cooper S felt very real. Just as Mrs. Money Mustache’s cravings for the artistic perfection and self confidence boost offered by the latest names in athletic fashion felt real. In fact, the cravings ARE real, and the adrenaline rush of buying these new things is real as well. They really do make you feel happy – for a very short time.
The key for me is not denying the existence of the craving or the short term rush. It’s zooming out and reminding myself, “Dude, the scientists have already figured this out for you. You can buy the Cooper, and get a short term rush, or you can put that same energy and money into doing something that creates far more lasting happiness.”
- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/ (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/)
I just don't see a case that the new Tesla creates any more true happiness than an old beater van . . . like he has always driven. MMM has instead chosen a very much a Hedonistic rather than Stoic pursuit. And that's a very different path than the one he has been advocating for so long. Going by his own articles, the purchase is certainly a misstep.
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Now this IS interesting:
Heck, he's talked about wanting to buy a Tesla as far back as 2012 (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/):
I write about bikes pretty often, so I must be one of those wacky car-free people right? Wrong again! I actually love cars and am a closet gearhead. Throwing aside practicality, I would own an all-electric Tesla Model Y (a practical 7-passenger crossover which also just happens to be one of the fastest cars in the world)...
That's super weird- Mention of a Tesla Y in an article written back in 2012??! Something funny going on there....
Definitely a stealth edit or two there. Looking at archive.org (https://web.archive.org/web/20120604034247/mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/) he originally mentioned the Tesla Roadster (MSRP $125k in 2012) in that spot. So actually a Model Y is much cheaper than he was dreaming of a decade ago. Still seems in bad faith to retroactively change what he said in 2012 to align with what he did in 2023 without an obvious edit indication.
Edit: as an aside, he left in the wording "one of the fastest cars in the world" which is definitely not true about the Model Y like it was (at least somewhat) about the Roadster.
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Still seems in bad faith to retroactively change what he said in 2012 to align with what he did in 2023 without an obvious edit indication.
I went through archive.org and found the exact date of the edit, which was January 22, 2022 (https://web.archive.org/web/20220122145725/https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/). So at least the edit does slightly predate the actual purchase of the Model Y.
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Wow, so even MMM himself realizes the problematic brand him buying a brand new Y has! lol
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I just don't see a case that the new Tesla creates any more true happiness than an old beater van . . . like he has always driven. MMM has instead chosen a very much a Hedonistic rather than Stoic pursuit. And that's a very different path than the one he has been advocating for so long. Going by his own articles, the purchase is certainly a misstep.
And I think this gets back to the crux of the issue. MMM did not choose this, Pete did. We are back to the problem of the dual identity issue that content creators have. In a way, Pete is a like a Luchador who can't take off the costume because the MMM costume looks just like him. Modern internet content creators can't split out the two very easily, so the personal and professional identities blend and conflict. This is the risk in taking a WWE approach to developing your online brand.
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I just don't see a case that the new Tesla creates any more true happiness than an old beater van . . . like he has always driven. MMM has instead chosen a very much a Hedonistic rather than Stoic pursuit. And that's a very different path than the one he has been advocating for so long. Going by his own articles, the purchase is certainly a misstep.
And I think this gets back to the crux of the issue. MMM did not choose this, Pete did. We are back to the problem of the dual identity issue that content creators have. In a way, Pete is a like a Luchador who can't take off the costume because the MMM costume looks just like him. Modern internet content creators can't split out the two very easily, so the personal and professional identities blend and conflict. This is the risk in taking a WWE approach to developing your online brand.
I had always thought there wasn't a huge difference between the online persona and the actual person.
So, MMM was an inauthentic persona then, and his message of environmentalism, frugality, and happiness with less was just a myth? In many ways, that seems even worse.
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So, MMM was an inauthentic persona then, and his message of environmentalism, frugality, and happiness with less was just a myth? In many ways, that seems even worse.
If your definition of "authentic" means, "perfect adherence," yes, that's correct. But also nobody else is authentic either, so it's a kind of pointless word.
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I just don't see a case that the new Tesla creates any more true happiness than an old beater van . . . like he has always driven. MMM has instead chosen a very much a Hedonistic rather than Stoic pursuit. And that's a very different path than the one he has been advocating for so long. Going by his own articles, the purchase is certainly a misstep.
And I think this gets back to the crux of the issue. MMM did not choose this, Pete did. We are back to the problem of the dual identity issue that content creators have. In a way, Pete is a like a Luchador who can't take off the costume because the MMM costume looks just like him. Modern internet content creators can't split out the two very easily, so the personal and professional identities blend and conflict. This is the risk in taking a WWE approach to developing your online brand.
I had always thought there wasn't a huge difference between the online persona and the actual person.
So, MMM was an inauthentic persona then, and his message of environmentalism, frugality, and happiness with less was just a myth? In many ways, that seems even worse.
Maybe not quite myth, more idealized paragon version of his general beliefs on those topics. But like all real humans, beliefs we espouse as important (helping the environment, not wasting money) can be rationalized to fall below other beliefs (fast techy car is fast and techy and looks fun).
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To be fair, back in 2016 MMM himself (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/) suggested a Tesla as being a totally reasonable vehicle for high net worth individuals.
Of course by that standard I should go buy a Model S, the mere thought of which is horrifying. So maybe we should increase that number a bit for inflation? So 2.5M?
Then in 2019 MMM posted about how he really really really (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2019/05/08/tesla-procrastination/) wants a Tesla but he's trying to put it off as long as possible. Which, four years later, he seems to have accomplished well.
So I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say that the newest article is tremendously at odds with his historical perspective.
Honestly, I find it a lot more jarring when forum members talk about freely spending a third of their total net worth on vehicles and generally don't receive much (or any) criticism.
It is tremendously at odds with his historical perspective--but not because he bought a Tesla! He needed a vehicle so he bought a vehicle.
It was suggestions like having a "free fun money account," a minimum spend, and a splurge buddy, to help you, well, splurge. He even says some frivolous spending is okay. There is a whole mountain of MMM blog posts contradicting those ideas. The old MMM would mock the idea of spending a few hundred bucks extra just to sit at the front of the plane. The old stoic MMM would argue that doing so would only bring pleasure for a short period of time and lead to hedonic adaptation. This blog post is a good summary of what I'm talking about:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/09/20/wealth-advice-that-should-be-obvious/
Don't buy that cool $10 flask. Restaurants are only for carefully planned occasions, etc. Tons more where that came for. The two authors do not have the same message.
Now, to be clear I agree with the current version of MMM. I never wanted to live on $40,000/year or forgo a cappuccino if I want one because it will make me weak.
But the message has surely changed. No question there.
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Still seems in bad faith to retroactively change what he said in 2012 to align with what he did in 2023 without an obvious edit indication.
I went through archive.org and found the exact date of the edit, which was January 22, 2022 (https://web.archive.org/web/20220122145725/https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/). So at least the edit does slightly predate the actual purchase of the Model Y.
This makes me wonder if he will wind up with a roadster someday when the new one comes out, and then go back in time and edit the article back to the original version.
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It is tremendously at odds with his historical perspective--but not because he bought a Tesla! He needed a vehicle so he bought a vehicle.
It was suggestions like having a "free fun money account," a minimum spend, and a splurge buddy, to help you, well, splurge. He even says some frivolous spending is okay. There is a whole mountain of MMM blog posts contradicting those ideas. The old MMM would mock the idea of spending a few hundred bucks extra just to sit at the front of the plane. The old stoic MMM would argue that doing so would only bring pleasure for a short period of time and lead to hedonic adaptation. This blog post is a good summary of what I'm talking about:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/09/20/wealth-advice-that-should-be-obvious/
Don't buy that cool $10 flask. Restaurants are only for carefully planned occasions, etc. Tons more where that came for. The two authors do not have the same message.
Now, to be clear I agree with the current version of MMM. I never wanted to live on $40,000/year or forgo a cappuccino if I want one because it will make me weak.
But the message has surely changed. No question there.
Oh man I love that old post. Pure, unadulterated MMM goodness. I still go back and read the old posts regularly, to remind myself that I'm soft and weak and spoiled.
You're definitely right about the huge change in tone. I do miss the original MMM message. Oh well, time has a way of working on us all.
Honestly, these days I get a lot more annoyed with bloggers with ultrahigh net worths who are extremely stingy. You're worth $5M and you refuse to have any hobbies because they would cost money? Your kids are going to community college because Dad wants to hoard his wealth?
Then there's the dubious spending reports. After fifteen years of living in a starter house you've never had a $10k repair or upgrade? You've never had a $5k dental bill that insurance wouldn't cover? Maybe they're really really good at getting familial expertise in construction and their brother is a dentist. Or maybe their frugality is leading to poor long term decisions, or perhaps their spending reports aren't quite accurate?
Others insist that living out of a suitcase in other peoples' houses is The Correct Lifestyle and anybody who wants to indulge the luxury of home ownership is an idiot. Whatever floats your boat, but there's zero chance of me ever hating work so much that I'd rather be homeless.
With thoughts like these, I appreciate knowing that even MMM grew up and realized that paying adult bills on occasion is worthwhile, whether it's for the good of one's children or beneficial to your romantic relationship. Same goes for Go Curry Cracker - he scrimped and pinched to buy the life he wanted, then realized that he could afford way more, and acted accordingly. Good for him. I appreciate the honesty, even though the change in tone is obviously less motivational for those on their way to FI.
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With thoughts like these, I appreciate knowing that even MMM grew up and realized that paying adult bills on occasion is worthwhile, whether it's for the good of one's children or beneficial to your romantic relationship.
Buying a Tesla is an 'adult bill' necessary for the good of one's children and beneficial to your romantic relationship? We must live in very different worlds. :P
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With thoughts like these, I appreciate knowing that even MMM grew up and realized that paying adult bills on occasion is worthwhile, whether it's for the good of one's children or beneficial to your romantic relationship.
Buying a Tesla is an 'adult bill' necessary for the good of one's children and beneficial to your romantic relationship? We must live in very different worlds. :P
Lol, total aside, but I sold my e-bike- yesterday to a dude for his sister. Dude's wife came to pick it up with a friend who has a pickup truck.
She was a miserable, rude cow of a human. Her husband had been quite delightful to deal with, but her hatred of her sister-in-law for whom the bike had been purchased was palpable.
Maybe there's a reason, I don't care, not my circus, not my monkeys.
Anyhoo, she brought the friend with the pickup truck because she didn't think the bike would fit in her Tesla.
Guess how many times she mentioned she had a Tesla in a 10 minute exchange?
"Can I park my Tesla here?"
"Where should I park my Tesla?"
"So I can leave my Tesla here? It's just a few minutes, right?"
"Can I bring my Tesla into the parking garage where the bike is?"
"Oh. Okay, I'll just leave the Tesla here."
"Do you think it will fit in my Tesla?" (Dude with pickup is literally already there to take the bike)
"I wasn't sure it would fit in my Tesla"
"I brought a friend because it's probably too big to fit in my Tesla"
"Oh yeah, that's too big to fit in my Tesla"
"This is so heavy, I don't think I could even get it into my Tesla"
"[Husband] thought it might fit in the Tesla, but I don't think it would fit"
"I definitely don't want bike grease in my Tesla"
"See [Friend], there's no way this would fit in my Tesla, what the hell was [husband] thinking?"
"Yeah, that would not have fit in my Tesla"
"Okay, [friend] you turn around first and then I'll follow in the Tesla"
I'm pretty sure that woman loves her Tesla more than her husband.
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It was suggestions like having a "free fun money account," a minimum spend, and a splurge buddy, to help you, well, splurge. He even says some frivolous spending is okay. There is a whole mountain of MMM blog posts contradicting those ideas. The old MMM would mock the idea of spending a few hundred bucks extra just to sit at the front of the plane. The old stoic MMM would argue that doing so would only bring pleasure for a short period of time and lead to hedonic adaptation. This blog post is a good summary of what I'm talking about:
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/09/20/wealth-advice-that-should-be-obvious/
I agree with this sentiment. But I don't think it is too much at odds with my understanding of MMM. When I read that linked blog post it is pretty clear the not spending on it advice is two parted. One don't spend one credit. Two don't spend on something you wont use. Also, I don't read into the purchase justification that Pete bought himself a car because he was looking for happiness, at least no more pleasure than those first few rides. I hope he drives so little that those first few rides of pleasure last several years without the inevitable increase in hedonistic adaptation that a "fun money" account to spend his excess signals is coming. It seems more like he is trying to replace a car and choosing what he thinks causes the least amount of harm. Of course, no car is that option, and it is disappointing that he doesn't acknowledge this.
I also don't appreciate the blog persona gymnastics. But I never have. I always felt the yearly budget reporting was skewed by not including the lifestyle benefits inherent in Pete's "work" side of things - buying things for builds, flying on planes for MMM events, all the status and social access granted by hosting the co-working location, etc.
I think MMM has said what he had to say. I'm still interested in what Pete is doing, but I think this persona maintenance should be over. In the response to comments Pete acknowledges the MMM blog is to encourage people to a certain lifestyle. Just let MMM stand on its own. The lessons don't need updating to be relevant (highlighted by the silly "Model Y" change to an 11 year old post). Perhaps Pete is looking for something greater to say about spending choices. And I think he might find it, but I would rather wait to read it until he has found it (or found the person saying it better). His early posts were presented as curated and editing thoughts that Pete had been collecting for many years.
From the blog post comments:
Except remember that these articles aren’t really about ME. I’m not just writing a diary here, that would be a huge waste of my time as a retired guy. Instead, the MMM blog is meant to be an advocacy platform that just happens to use personal stories as a framework.
The blog post misses the mark, especially coming on the heels of the "Car-free future" post. What kind of future is Pete building if he needs a car to do it? I'm not opposed to buying nice things for oneself, especially if you think it is the least harm option, without concern about the costs. I support that for food and clothing and also for transportation, education, design choices, etc. And there is certainly a 'what you can afford' element to the decision making.
Rich people should voluntarily limit "what they can afford".
There is a conflict that I think we have all been discussing here somewhat, between accumulation phase and drawdown phase. A concept, I think called lifestyle smoothing, was promoted by a book i read early in my discovery of FIRE. The book wasn't great, it was called "Spend Till the End" and it promoted inflating your lifestyle to match your income to the point where you spend all of your money. It missed the point about "Enough'. Pete didn't address how his decision making fits into the need to restrain lifestyle inflation and it didn't discuss the harm lifestyle inflation causes.
I sit on this hill now, overlooking my Town. What a fucking paradise. not a road in sight. Just bright green budding leaves, the pale brown of branches and lush green fields of new grown grass, the occasional white dot of a building with its idyllic red barn visible only in my minds eye. White and grey clouds imperceptibly moving across the light blue sky. A whisper of wind in the budding birches.
And that fucking hum of the highway. I just want to go Monkey Wrench gang on that thing.
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Still seems in bad faith to retroactively change what he said in 2012 to align with what he did in 2023 without an obvious edit indication.
I went through archive.org and found the exact date of the edit, which was January 22, 2022 (https://web.archive.org/web/20220122145725/https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/). So at least the edit does slightly predate the actual purchase of the Model Y.
Wow, revising a decade old blog make it appear one is following through as planned. This guy might have ended up in jail if he worked at a financial institution...
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I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.
Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(
Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.
That is so disappointing.
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I just don't understand all the anger over this blog post. The comments on the actual blog post were bonkers and in this thread are similarly weird to me.
Pete's a retired person spending his money, not some deity changing his religion.
Be happy for the guy and and move on.
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I just don't understand all the anger over this blog post. The comments on the actual blog post were bonkers and in this thread are similarly weird to me.
Pete's a retired person spending his money, not some deity changing his religion.
Be happy for the guy and and move on.
He is multimillionaire he can buy what he wants. What is disappointing is buying a Tesla, from a company run by sociopath CEO. He could have bought any other electric car but I think he was cheap. On one had he acknowledges that issue and on the other he is rationalizing it. Worse part is he is a major influencer. I have seen on this forum, people who cant afford buy 50-60k tesla. He is setting a bad example.
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It turns out that living frugally isn't as easy as it seems.
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It turns out that living frugally isn't as easy as it seems.
Being hard wouldn't be all that big of an admission, I think we can all agree with and live with that, but the subtext that it actually isn't as sustainable or fun as he's made it out to be is damning.
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It turns out that living frugally isn't as easy as it seems.
Being hard wouldn't be all that big of an admission, I think we can all agree with and live with that, but the subtext that it actually isn't as sustainable or fun as he's made it out to be is damning.
Agreed. I wasn't nearly as hard-core as original MMM or many others, but I don't have a new tesla so maybe I'm better than MMM on the spending side now :D
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
Of course people can grow and change. But it can be negative right? If he started spending all of his money on cigarettes and hookers would that be good too?
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
Of course people can grow and change. But it can be negative right? If he started spending all of his money on cigarettes and hookers would that be good too?
I just wouldn't classify 'replacing a broken ICE van with an EV, as per his long-held publicly stated environmental concerns' in the same realm as 'cigarettes and hookerssex-workers'. If he'd replaced his van with a coal-rolling extended-cab pick-up truck? Sure. That seems like more of a betrayal of core values to me.
Is the problem people are having that he opted for something he would enjoy? Because if we're not hair-shirting it and loving it, 100% of the time then aren't we all hedonic-treadmill consumer sukkas? It just seems exhausting.
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
I think multiple people in this thread have clearly acknowledged that yes, people can grow and change. So maybe it's you who are high on your supply of self-righteousness?
If you scream from the rooftops that real estate investors (to use an example) are fools, and you regularly mock them, then you announce you've started a RE investing empire, it's going to raise eyebrows and make you seem like a hypocrite if you don't at least acknowledge that there's been a shift in your thinking and that maybe you were wrong before. There's nothing wrong with having been wrong, or gaining new understanding that shifts your perspective. But when you just pretend nothing has changed, well... can you really not see how that comes off?
Also, sure, MMM/Pete or anyone else can grow and change. I know someone who used to be pretty open and respectful of all people but has become quite a bigot. Not all growth and change is good growth and change. And when you are a public figure who has made your choices the cornerstone of your public profile, people are going to comment on your choices.
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
Of course people can grow and change. But it can be negative right? If he started spending all of his money on cigarettes and hookers would that be good too?
I just wouldn't classify 'replacing a broken ICE van with an EV, as per his long-held publicly stated environmental concerns' in the same realm as 'cigarettes and hookerssex-workers'. If he'd replaced his van with a coal-rolling extended-cab pick-up truck? Sure. That seems like more of a betrayal of core values to me.
Is the problem people are having that he opted for something he would enjoy? Because if we're not hair-shirting it and loving it, 100% of the time then aren't we all hedonic-treadmill consumer sukkas? It just seems exhausting.
I was under the impression that MMM didn't drive enough for the environmental savings of an EV to be worth it. That's why he was always pushing the idea of using high mileage, cheaper used vehicles. They're much more environmental than buying a brand new car unless you're putting great distances in.
It's not a matter of self-righteousness, so much as confusion.
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
Of course people can grow and change. But it can be negative right? If he started spending all of his money on cigarettes and hookers would that be good too?
I just wouldn't classify 'replacing a broken ICE van with an EV, as per his long-held publicly stated environmental concerns' in the same realm as 'cigarettes and hookerssex-workers'. If he'd replaced his van with a coal-rolling extended-cab pick-up truck? Sure. That seems like more of a betrayal of core values to me.
Is the problem people are having that he opted for something he would enjoy? Because if we're not hair-shirting it and loving it, 100% of the time then aren't we all hedonic-treadmill consumer sukkas? It just seems exhausting.
A major component of what he espoused was that frugality isn't a hair shirt. It was framed more as a blanket that kept one warm, safe, healthy and agile, without giving up any true comfort or happiness. If it is in fact a hair-shirt, then everything he said about the relationship between money and happiness is called into question, no? He never said, "frugality hurts, but is necessary for a better life, so you should suck it up and deal with the discomfort or pain of frugality."
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
Of course people can grow and change. But it can be negative right? If he started spending all of his money on cigarettes and hookers would that be good too?
I just wouldn't classify 'replacing a broken ICE van with an EV, as per his long-held publicly stated environmental concerns' in the same realm as 'cigarettes and hookerssex-workers'. If he'd replaced his van with a coal-rolling extended-cab pick-up truck? Sure. That seems like more of a betrayal of core values to me.
Is the problem people are having that he opted for something he would enjoy? Because if we're not hair-shirting it and loving it, 100% of the time then aren't we all hedonic-treadmill consumer sukkas? It just seems exhausting.
Mehh, why go with a Tesla? An Aspark Owl would be way more fun to drive and it's an EV. YOLO!
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
I think multiple people in this thread have clearly acknowledged that yes, people can grow and change. So maybe it's you who are high on your supply of self-righteousness?
If you scream from the rooftops that real estate investors (to use an example) are fools, and you regularly mock them, then you announce you've started a RE investing empire, it's going to raise eyebrows and make you seem like a hypocrite if you don't at least acknowledge that there's been a shift in your thinking and that maybe you were wrong before. There's nothing wrong with having been wrong, or gaining new understanding that shifts your perspective. But when you just pretend nothing has changed, well... can you really not see how that comes off?
Also, sure, MMM/Pete or anyone else can grow and change. I know someone who used to be pretty open and respectful of all people but has become quite a bigot. Not all growth and change is good growth and change. And when you are a public figure who has made your choices the cornerstone of your public profile, people are going to comment on your choices.
Not to mention, the Tesla is by far the least "2011 MMM goes crazy" part of that post.
The blogpost tells you(at least someone who is in MMM's position) to deliberately spend money frivolously. Which is absolutely contrary to everything he stood for a decade ago.
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...
"Okay, [friend] you turn around first and then I'll follow in the Tesla"
I'm pretty sure that woman loves her Tesla more than her husband.
Nice vignette. It's, like, uber-presumptive to treat the owner of a Tesla as if you could just expect a being like her to run errands, like some lackey.
In an unobtrusive way, we used to time how long it would take one of our acquaintance to shoe-horn into the conversation the fact that he had been a Rhodes scholar, some decades ago. Never more than 10 minutes.
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...
"Okay, [friend] you turn around first and then I'll follow in the Tesla"
I'm pretty sure that woman loves her Tesla more than her husband.
Nice vignette. It's, like, uber-presumptive to treat the owner of a Tesla as if you could just expect a being like her to run errands, like some lackey.
In an unobtrusive way, we used to time how long it would take one of our acquaintance to shoe-horn into the conversation the fact that he had been a Rhodes scholar, some decades ago. Never more than 10 minutes.
I hiked the Appalachian trail over 10 years ago and it is still the first thing trying to come out of my mouth when I meet a new person.
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It turns out that living frugally isn't as easy as it seems.
Being hard wouldn't be all that big of an admission, I think we can all agree with and live with that, but the subtext that it actually isn't as sustainable or fun as he's made it out to be is damning.
I actually think living frugally IS the easy option. At least when considering the big 3 expenses...
1) Housing - big houses just means more house to clean & maintain.
2) Transportation - more cars = more maintenance, newer tech means more stuff that can break, and shopping for cars is a pain, but I'm not a gearhead either.
3) Food - I have zero tolerance for driving somewhere, waiting for a table, and then waiting for food. Even when considering take-out, I find making food at home easier.
Now beyond that it can get hard. Especially if we're talking Jacob from ERE level of insourcing. I think this is why FIRE took with me, it really didn't feel like a sacrifice at all
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
I think multiple people in this thread have clearly acknowledged that yes, people can grow and change. So maybe it's you who are high on your supply of self-righteousness?
If you scream from the rooftops that real estate investors (to use an example) are fools, and you regularly mock them, then you announce you've started a RE investing empire, it's going to raise eyebrows and make you seem like a hypocrite if you don't at least acknowledge that there's been a shift in your thinking and that maybe you were wrong before. There's nothing wrong with having been wrong, or gaining new understanding that shifts your perspective. But when you just pretend nothing has changed, well... can you really not see how that comes off?
Also, sure, MMM/Pete or anyone else can grow and change. I know someone who used to be pretty open and respectful of all people but has become quite a bigot. Not all growth and change is good growth and change. And when you are a public figure who has made your choices the cornerstone of your public profile, people are going to comment on your choices.
Not to mention, the Tesla is by far the least "2011 MMM goes crazy" part of that post.
The blogpost tells you(at least someone who is in MMM's position) to deliberately spend money frivolously. Which is absolutely contrary to everything he stood for a decade ago.
That's not what i got at all, he is replacing a 20+ year old van that had issues, left him stranded, with a new reliable vehicle
I assume, after a person FIREs, there comes a point that after planning with the 4% rule, which is conservative, a person has way more money then they ever imagined. MMM also has side hustles that bring in money and he has continued his frugal ways for years which equals even more money. The blog post tells me that someone in that enviable position can loosen up and live a little, spend $2 dollars more on bread and not waste 30 minutes driving to the cheaper store. Buy a reasonably priced electric vehicle, living his enviro mission.
Maybe MMM read "Die with Zero" and realized he has way to many dollars left over even after donating hundreds of thousands of them to charity.
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Y'all are high on your own supply of self-righteousness. People can never grow and change? We have to be bound by the opinions of our youth? I guess that’s a choice you make.
I think multiple people in this thread have clearly acknowledged that yes, people can grow and change. So maybe it's you who are high on your supply of self-righteousness?
If you scream from the rooftops that real estate investors (to use an example) are fools, and you regularly mock them, then you announce you've started a RE investing empire, it's going to raise eyebrows and make you seem like a hypocrite if you don't at least acknowledge that there's been a shift in your thinking and that maybe you were wrong before. There's nothing wrong with having been wrong, or gaining new understanding that shifts your perspective. But when you just pretend nothing has changed, well... can you really not see how that comes off?
Also, sure, MMM/Pete or anyone else can grow and change. I know someone who used to be pretty open and respectful of all people but has become quite a bigot. Not all growth and change is good growth and change. And when you are a public figure who has made your choices the cornerstone of your public profile, people are going to comment on your choices.
Not to mention, the Tesla is by far the least "2011 MMM goes crazy" part of that post.
The blogpost tells you(at least someone who is in MMM's position) to deliberately spend money frivolously. Which is absolutely contrary to everything he stood for a decade ago.
That's not what i got at all, he is replacing a 20+ year old van that had issues, left him stranded, with a new reliable vehicle
I assume, after a person FIREs, there comes a point that after planning with the 4% rule, which is conservative, a person has way more money then they ever imagined. MMM also has side hustles that bring in money and he has continued his frugal ways for years which equals even more money. The blog post tells me that someone in that enviable position can loosen up and live a little, spend $2 dollars more on bread and not waste 30 minutes driving to the cheaper store. Buy a reasonably priced electric vehicle, living his enviro mission.
Maybe MMM read "Die with Zero" and realized he has way to many dollars left over even after donating hundreds of thousands of them to charity.
I think many people are saying the section I bolded above is the exact opposite of what MMM was saying a decade ago. Why get a new car? That's consumerism and anti-environmentalism. If his current car is dying, he could get a used hybrid that is still way better for the environment than a brand new Tesla (or brand new anything).
I drive a 15 year old Prius. Sure, I could get a Tesla as well... but if my Prius ever dies I'll just get a used Prius or somesuch to replace it.
Basically his message has changed from "Let's get rich and save the environment at the same time by reuse/frugality" to "If you're rich do whatever you want, you deserve it."
That's a bit sad.
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That's not what i got at all, he is replacing a 20+ year old van that had issues, left him stranded, with a new reliable vehicle
I assume, after a person FIREs, there comes a point that after planning with the 4% rule, which is conservative, a person has way more money then they ever imagined. MMM also has side hustles that bring in money and he has continued his frugal ways for years which equals even more money. The blog post tells me that someone in that enviable position can loosen up and live a little, spend $2 dollars more on bread and not waste 30 minutes driving to the cheaper store. Buy a reasonably priced electric vehicle, living his enviro mission.
Maybe MMM read "Die with Zero" and realized he has way to many dollars left over even after donating hundreds of thousands of them to charity.
I took away more like these direct quotes ;-)
But yes, it’s also okay to set aside a portion of the money you’ve earned, for frivolous spending on yourself and those closest to you. You’re not a bad person for having a few nice things.
* A useful tip for more effective splurging:
We both realized that we were being too cheap with ourselves, and we needed to work on it. And we came up with a set of three ideas that should hopefully work together to help us have more fun with our life savings, while we are still alive:
the Minimum Spending Budget,
the Dedicated Money Wasting Account,
and the Splurge Accountability Buddy.
Principle #2 – the Dedicated Money Wasting Account
Re-brand your main bank account – henceforth it is the FREE FUN MONEY account.
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I just don't understand all the anger over this blog post. The comments on the actual blog post were bonkers and in this thread are similarly weird to me.
Pete's a retired person spending his money, not some deity changing his religion.
Be happy for the guy and and move on.
He is multimillionaire he can buy what he wants. What is disappointing is buying a Tesla, from a company run by sociopath CEO. He could have bought any other electric car but I think he was cheap. On one had he acknowledges that issue and on the other he is rationalizing it. Worse part is he is a major influencer. I have seen on this forum, people who cant afford buy 50-60k tesla. He is setting a bad example.
As opposed to buying a car from one of the other billionaire automotive company CEOs, who are all paragons of virtue? Musk is at minimum no worse than the average billionaire CEO, and in many ways I would argue he is considerably better. The main reason everyone hates him so much is because his name is inextricably tied to his brand, whereas nobody knows the names of all the other CEOs, so you get to be blissfully ignorant buying their products and pretending you've taken some kind of moral high road. There is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. If you're buying shit from a store, you're almost certainly indirectly supporting slave labor, or something only marginally better.
And anyone who isn't a millionaire and thinks MMM's latest article is telling them to go buy a brand new Tesla is just projecting their own message. Nothing he has ever said would suggest that sort of spending is reasonable for someone who isn't extremely wealthy.
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And anyone who isn't a millionaire and thinks MMM's latest article is telling them to go buy a brand new Tesla is just projecting their own message. Nothing he has ever said would suggest that sort of spending is reasonable for someone who isn't extremely wealthy.
That's the thing though. MMM has been extremely wealthy since he started the blog. Nothing he has said before this post would suggest that sort of spending is reasonable. Full stop.
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...
"Okay, [friend] you turn around first and then I'll follow in the Tesla"
I'm pretty sure that woman loves her Tesla more than her husband.
Nice vignette. It's, like, uber-presumptive to treat the owner of a Tesla as if you could just expect a being like her to run errands, like some lackey.
In an unobtrusive way, we used to time how long it would take one of our acquaintance to shoe-horn into the conversation the fact that he had been a Rhodes scholar, some decades ago. Never more than 10 minutes.
Lol, this was a running joke in Frasier about him name dropping Harvard.
It's funny, I've actually made a bit of a sport recently of seeing just how long I can go when meeting someone, without lying or purposefully misleading, letting them assume I'm a 20-something university student with no significant accomplishments.
What's also funny is that when I talk to people about my current life, they all wax poetic about their favourite time of their lives being when they lived in that little apartment during school. They get all misty about how much they loved that little apartment, how fun and carefree that time was. Often they'll throw in some love for their old shitty car.
They often wistfully tell me to enjoy it while I can because midlife is just a clusterfuck of responsibilities and stress. This is usually where I'll finally admit that DH and I are 40 and 50 and that we too were wistful for our university days, which is why we proactively returned to that kind of lifestyle after downsizing our home and car.
And that's really what's being lost in MMM's new messaging.
There's an extremely useful discussion to be had around luxury spending, but he's not really framing it effectively.
The message of "don't feel guilty about a bit of luxury if you can afford it" really does contradict his original messaging that frugal options are often superior.
The key point he's missing is that *some* luxuries are absolutely worth the cost if you can afford them, but they are rare. If you find a luxury that is an excellent value relative to its cost, and you can readily afford it, then yeah, that's worthwhile.
I just posted in the stupid things you're lusting after thread a 12K used, all terrain wheelchair that has tank treads instead of wheels. I spend half my year in a place where the only thing to do is wander on trails in one of the most beautiful places on earth. I can't do that right now thanks to my legs being fucked.
12K for me right now is too much to spend on a wheelchair I don't really need, but if I had Pete's money, of course I would buy it!
Luxuries are not all made equal. MMM's original, very important point was that most luxuries actually detract from quality of life. Which is why so many people I meet get all misty and nostalgic about when they were broke students having true fun and engaging in profound relationships.
Most luxuries are a scam. They're bullshit that makes you more miserable and more unhealthy. Even if you "can afford" them, they're best avoided just for your basic well being.
So the messaging shouldn't be that "a little luxury is okay if you can afford it," the messaging should be that some luxury truly adds to your quality of life, but that even if you can afford it, you should stay hyper-vigilant to the task of assessing that value.
When I first went from being a broke student to making insane income, I was briefly spending like crazy on whatever luxuries I felt I had denied myself for my decade+ of school.
After a few months life felt so fucking hollow. The more I spent, the more pointless life felt. The act of existing in a consumerist world "indulging" in crap felt similar to how people feel after spending too much time on social media.
The things designed to grab our attention and our money just aren't good for us on average. MMM got this right the first time.
He's not wrong about not feeling bad about spending on luxuries, but he's missed A LOT of nuance in the argument.
IMO, I think he got too caught up in feeling like he needed to justify going against what he previously said, instead of figuring out the more complex argument to be made about assessing the value of luxury.
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Feels weird when I think @Metalcat knows MMM better than he knows himself lol
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That's not what i got at all, he is replacing a 20+ year old van that had issues, left him stranded, with a new reliable vehicle
I assume, after a person FIREs, there comes a point that after planning with the 4% rule, which is conservative, a person has way more money then they ever imagined. MMM also has side hustles that bring in money and he has continued his frugal ways for years which equals even more money. The blog post tells me that someone in that enviable position can loosen up and live a little, spend $2 dollars more on bread and not waste 30 minutes driving to the cheaper store. Buy a reasonably priced electric vehicle, living his enviro mission.
Maybe MMM read "Die with Zero" and realized he has way to many dollars left over even after donating hundreds of thousands of them to charity.
I took away more like these direct quotes ;-)
But yes, it’s also okay to set aside a portion of the money you’ve earned, for frivolous spending on yourself and those closest to you. You’re not a bad person for having a few nice things.
* A useful tip for more effective splurging:
We both realized that we were being too cheap with ourselves, and we needed to work on it. And we came up with a set of three ideas that should hopefully work together to help us have more fun with our life savings, while we are still alive:
the Minimum Spending Budget,
the Dedicated Money Wasting Account,
and the Splurge Accountability Buddy.
Principle #2 – the Dedicated Money Wasting Account
Re-brand your main bank account – henceforth it is the FREE FUN MONEY account.
All that sounds fine to me if your stash has grown so large it doesn't matter anymore -> say you go from a 1% withdrawal rate to a 1.5%
But i get it, its way of "brand" for Pete to talk and act like this, and it could skew newcomers ideas
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That's not what i got at all, he is replacing a 20+ year old van that had issues, left him stranded, with a new reliable vehicle
I assume, after a person FIREs, there comes a point that after planning with the 4% rule, which is conservative, a person has way more money then they ever imagined. MMM also has side hustles that bring in money and he has continued his frugal ways for years which equals even more money. The blog post tells me that someone in that enviable position can loosen up and live a little, spend $2 dollars more on bread and not waste 30 minutes driving to the cheaper store. Buy a reasonably priced electric vehicle, living his enviro mission.
Maybe MMM read "Die with Zero" and realized he has way to many dollars left over even after donating hundreds of thousands of them to charity.
I took away more like these direct quotes ;-)
But yes, it’s also okay to set aside a portion of the money you’ve earned, for frivolous spending on yourself and those closest to you. You’re not a bad person for having a few nice things.
* A useful tip for more effective splurging:
We both realized that we were being too cheap with ourselves, and we needed to work on it. And we came up with a set of three ideas that should hopefully work together to help us have more fun with our life savings, while we are still alive:
the Minimum Spending Budget,
the Dedicated Money Wasting Account,
and the Splurge Accountability Buddy.
Principle #2 – the Dedicated Money Wasting Account
Re-brand your main bank account – henceforth it is the FREE FUN MONEY account.
All that sounds fine to me if your stash has grown so large it doesn't matter anymore -> say you go from a 1% withdrawal rate to a 1.5%
But i get it, its way of "brand" for Pete to talk and act like this, and it could skew newcomers ideas
It's fine for someone whose message hasn't always been that spending less improves your quality of life.
MMM's message was *not* Bogleheads. It wasn't about saving for the sake of getting rich. The core messaging was about how spending less improves your quality of life.
That's why discussions about luxury and what it actually brings to your life are so important.
He did touch on this indirectly many times in the past. He talked about how he perceived his life as incredibly luxurious, which means he was always an advocate for true luxury, aka those things that he felt were worth spending on.
This message was always there, just not fleshed out.
What's worth discussing is whether increased wealth changes the calculus on which luxuries are worthwhile and which aren't. Which, obviously it does.
There's the absolute question of the value of a luxury: does it actually improve your quality of life?
MMM covered this many times. No, most luxuries are false value.
But then there are are luxuries that *would* actually add to your quality of life, but not at the expense of other luxuries, such as more free time.
But if you've purchased all the free time you need and there are no other luxuries you would rather purchase, then the relative value of those luxuries rises.
Let's come back to the example of the 12K wheelchair I mentioned.
The only reason I'm not buying it is because I have other luxuries this year that are more valuable and not enough resources to add an unnecessary 12K wheelchair to the mix. The trade off would be poor, it's a bad deal for me, so the value in the luxury isn't there.
If this were several years from now, those constraints wouldn't exist. The trade becomes a lot better. The purchase much more likely.
What's important to note is that not all luxuries rise with the tide of wealth in terms of their value.
What is challenging is truly discriminating between those luxuries that will truly improve our quality of life and those that we've been conditioned to *believe* will improve it, by a system that is hellbent on luring us into coveting luxury.
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That's not what i got at all, he is replacing a 20+ year old van that had issues, left him stranded, with a new reliable vehicle
I assume, after a person FIREs, there comes a point that after planning with the 4% rule, which is conservative, a person has way more money then they ever imagined. MMM also has side hustles that bring in money and he has continued his frugal ways for years which equals even more money. The blog post tells me that someone in that enviable position can loosen up and live a little, spend $2 dollars more on bread and not waste 30 minutes driving to the cheaper store. Buy a reasonably priced electric vehicle, living his enviro mission.
Maybe MMM read "Die with Zero" and realized he has way to many dollars left over even after donating hundreds of thousands of them to charity.
I took away more like these direct quotes ;-)
But yes, it’s also okay to set aside a portion of the money you’ve earned, for frivolous spending on yourself and those closest to you. You’re not a bad person for having a few nice things.
* A useful tip for more effective splurging:
We both realized that we were being too cheap with ourselves, and we needed to work on it. And we came up with a set of three ideas that should hopefully work together to help us have more fun with our life savings, while we are still alive:
the Minimum Spending Budget,
the Dedicated Money Wasting Account,
and the Splurge Accountability Buddy.
Principle #2 – the Dedicated Money Wasting Account
Re-brand your main bank account – henceforth it is the FREE FUN MONEY account.
All that sounds fine to me if your stash has grown so large it doesn't matter anymore -> say you go from a 1% withdrawal rate to a 1.5%
But i get it, its way of "brand" for Pete to talk and act like this, and it could skew newcomers ideas
It's fine for someone whose message hasn't always been that spending less improves your quality of life.
MMM's message was *not* Bogleheads. It wasn't about saving for the sake of getting rich. The core messaging was about how spending less improves your quality of life.
That's why discussions about luxury and what it actually brings to your life are so important.
He did touch on this indirectly many times in the past. He talked about how he perceived his life as incredibly luxurious, which means he was always an advocate for true luxury, aka those things that he felt were worth spending on.
This message was always there, just not fleshed out.
What's worth discussing is whether increased wealth changes the calculus on which luxuries are worthwhile and which aren't. Which, obviously it does.
There's the absolute question of the value of a luxury: does it actually improve your quality of life?
MMM covered this many times. No, most luxuries are false value.
But then there are are luxuries that *would* actually add to your quality of life, but not at the expense of other luxuries, such as more free time.
But if you've purchased all the free time you need and there are no other luxuries you would rather purchase, then the relative value of those luxuries rises.
Let's come back to the example of the 12K wheelchair I mentioned.
The only reason I'm not buying it is because I have other luxuries this year that are more valuable and not enough resources to add an unnecessary 12K wheelchair to the mix. The trade off would be poor, it's a bad deal for me, so the value in the luxury isn't there.
If this were several years from now, those constraints wouldn't exist. The trade becomes a lot better. The purchase much more likely.
What's important to note is that not all luxuries rise with the tide of wealth in terms of their value.
What is challenging is truly discriminating between those luxuries that will truly improve our quality of life and those that we've been conditioned to *believe* will improve it, by a system that is hellbent on luring us into coveting luxury.
Fuck Yeah!
(But I’m starting to think that maybe you should get the wheelchair.)
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Fuck Yeah!
(But I’m starting to think that maybe you should get the wheelchair.)
I mean...look at it
https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1373887700124027/
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Fuck Yeah!
(But I’m starting to think that maybe you should get the wheelchair.)
I mean...look at it
https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1373887700124027/
Can we still call that a wheel chair if it has tracks?
Also that looks epic!
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I have to say, I have enjoyed the dialogue that this blog post has generated more than anything I have seen on the Forums (or on the blog) in a very long time.
Maybe it's because it is relevant to me in a way, maybe because it seems to fall in line with the schism that I have seen in the forum about things getting a bit spendy/soft, but mostly I think it has caused me to evaluate and reevaluate my own thinking on frugality, what it means and how it is relevant in my life for "maximizing life enjoyment."
(Although, the frugal part of me reminds me "is it convenient, would I enjoy it... would I like a catheter and a bed pan to go with it?" (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/)
I think a lot of it comes down to varying "opinions" about what it's all about "here." And the truth is, it will be different for everyone. Take what works for you, leave what doesn't.
I think that if we really get down to it, it's not frugality; it's about efficiency- "pareto optimization for maximum life enjoyment."
Many (most?) people are living wildly un-optimized lives; you know the hair-on fire situation. For them the tactics espoused by what we seem to be referring to here as "classic MMM..." will lead to a richer life; not just money richer, but also richer in time, freedom, and options.
Optimizing your life is about more than following the same tactical steps forever.
And I don't think blog post is advocating for a Yolo- so go out blow it on hookers and blow... quite the opposite, I think it is really saying when the money problem is totally solved, it might be good to be mindful to not bottle-neck your own happiness by a desire to continue optimizing. It is a means to an end. Agonizing over the cost of bread is not a good or efficient use of your time once you have completely conquered the money game. The early optimizing may have focused on the money part; and the tendency is to keep the focus there; but the reality is there are other kinds of capital and recognizing when they are out of balance is an important step in growing your "business" of you.
My thoughts are still evolving on this, but I really don't see it being at odds with earlier material.
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I just don't understand all the anger over this blog post. The comments on the actual blog post were bonkers and in this thread are similarly weird to me.
Pete's a retired person spending his money, not some deity changing his religion.
Be happy for the guy and and move on.
He is multimillionaire he can buy what he wants. What is disappointing is buying a Tesla, from a company run by sociopath CEO. He could have bought any other electric car but I think he was cheap. On one had he acknowledges that issue and on the other he is rationalizing it. Worse part is he is a major influencer. I have seen on this forum, people who cant afford buy 50-60k tesla. He is setting a bad example.
As opposed to buying a car from one of the other billionaire automotive company CEOs, who are all paragons of virtue? Musk is at minimum no worse than the average billionaire CEO, and in many ways I would argue he is considerably better. The main reason everyone hates him so much is because his name is inextricably tied to his brand, whereas nobody knows the names of all the other CEOs, so you get to be blissfully ignorant buying their products and pretending you've taken some kind of moral high road. There is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. If you're buying shit from a store, you're almost certainly indirectly supporting slave labor, or something only marginally better.
And anyone who isn't a millionaire and thinks MMM's latest article is telling them to go buy a brand new Tesla is just projecting their own message. Nothing he has ever said would suggest that sort of spending is reasonable for someone who isn't extremely wealthy.
.
I am not sure if there any current auto CEO that is a billionaire. Anyway, Any other CEO with toxic personality and rhetoric like him would have been fired long ago.
What you are saying makes no sense, Just because so much shit out there that we don’t notice we should ignore what we notice as well.
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Fuck Yeah!
(But I’m starting to think that maybe you should get the wheelchair.)
I mean...look at it
https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1373887700124027/
Can we still call that a wheel chair if it has tracks?
Also that looks epic!
That's some Mad Max looking shit right there! Strap on a minigun.
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Maybe Ramit Sethi is to blame? Around the same time as this 'bizarre' post from MMM, the Mad FIentist posted a podcast with Ramit, parroting a lot of similar 'spend the stache' ethos (How to Spend (and Actually Enjoy It) (https://www.madfientist.com/i-will-teach-you-to-be-rich-interview/)). Then today we have Mr. 1500Days talking about their podcast with Ramit - https://www.1500days.com/what-if-you-run-out-of-life/
Consider this question:
Would you rather have really rich experiences when you’re 50 or be really rich when you’re 80?
Here are some of the experiences that I’m considering splurging on soon:
Buying a place in the mountains and then frequently inviting friends and family to hang out.
Taking my mom, siblings, and their partners on a cruise.
Buying a ridiculous car and then take wild road trips with it. I’ll see friends and National Parks. In between, I’ll cruise down scenic byways and lost highways. A Tesla Model S would be great for this.
Renting a ridiculous property for a month and then invite everyone I know to come visit.
This thinking isn’t easy because it’s the opposite of the FIRE life many of us have embraced
Through the magic of living on other people's money as an expat a few times, I've had this taste of 'splurging' for years at a time... It is easy to lose track of the lifestyle inflation and hard to reign it back in once the treadmill gets going. I'm also interested to see if the community follows these folks in to splurge-ville?
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Then today we have Mr. 1500Days talking about their podcast with Ramit - https://www.1500days.com/what-if-you-run-out-of-life/
Consider this question:
Would you rather have really rich experiences when you’re 50 or be really rich when you’re 80?
Ironically, when I read this first I didn't interpret "rich experiences" to have anything to do with money, and only after thinking about it in context did I realized he meant enjoy "experiences that involve spending a lot of money" rather "enjoy fulfilling experiences full of complexity and depth." There may be some overlap, but I know which one of those 2 I would prefer.
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On a tangentially related note, I started listening to the ChooseFI podcast again recently and I'm noticing a pattern there too where more of the episodes seem to be centered around spending money efficiently rather than not spending it at all.
It seems that most of the big FI influencers are now so wealthy that they're becoming less interested in saving money and more interested in spending it. Which is fine by me, but as someone who is still relatively early in the wealth accumulation stage, I do find myself longing for more content by people who are working towards FI rather than cruising along with a 7 or 8 figure net worth.
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So my gripe is less that he bought a car. No biggie there. He needed a replacement vehicle, has the money, more power to him, free country and all that jazz.
He goes on from the actual buying of the car and gets into an enforced spending monologue, which just blew off the veil of willful suspension of disbelief for me.
Going back into older posts about his annual spend he has always projected this hard to swallow $25k/year spending, often with some tricky asterisks hidden in there. A lot of what I would call spending got called an "investment" of some sort. Buying a property to create a co-working space was neither spending or a "job", which stretched the incredulity, but whatever. He buys a brand new Leaf and there were more mental gymnastics to argue it paid for itself, so that didn't really count as "spending".
The Tesla and the change in messaging laid bare what I'd been annoyed with for years. If you want to spend, spend. But don't claim you are living on $25k/year with overflowing luxuries in your life if your real spending on real goods and services is much higher. A lot of folks looked at his spending and really felt like they were doing it wrong, when in reality we should all be budgeting for lumpy expenses along the way, and not telling ourselves and others that there is a magic category you can label your net cash outflow as to not really count as spending.
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So my gripe is less that he bought a car. No biggie there. He needed a replacement vehicle, has the money, more power to him, free country and all that jazz.
He goes on from the actual buying of the car and gets into an enforced spending monologue, which just blew off the veil of willful suspension of disbelief for me.
Going back into older posts about his annual spend he has always projected this hard to swallow $25k/year spending, often with some tricky asterisks hidden in there. A lot of what I would call spending got called an "investment" of some sort. Buying a property to create a co-working space was neither spending or a "job", which stretched the incredulity, but whatever. He buys a brand new Leaf and there were more mental gymnastics to argue it paid for itself, so that didn't really count as "spending".
The Tesla and the change in messaging laid bare what I'd been annoyed with for years. If you want to spend, spend. But don't claim you are living on $25k/year with overflowing luxuries in your life if your real spending on real goods and services is much higher. A lot of folks looked at his spending and really felt like they were doing it wrong, when in reality we should all be budgeting for lumpy expenses along the way, and not telling ourselves and others that there is a magic category you can label your net cash outflow as to not really count as spending.
I do think the line between spending and investments can often get blurred though. Is it spending or investment to buy a property with the intention of using it to generate cash flow? And if that counts as spending, should buying shares of an index fund also be considered spending? After all, you are spending that money in exchange for shares, with the intention of those shares generating more value.
I always felt Pete did a pretty decent job of being transparent about what he was buying and why he did/didn't consider it "spending". It was always up to the reader to decide whether or not they agree with his framing. The recent shift from his old approach to this new "enforced spendypants" approach does seem like a huge jump though. I didn't really recognize it so much until I started re-reading his posts from a decade ago, back when he would loudly and proudly proclaim that the optimal lifestyle could be achieved by spending less. Don't get me wrong, it still seems to me that he's still making very good use of his time, spending it in ways that provide maximum fulfilment, but now he has also added this mandatory spending rule that just doesn't fit within the philosophy he used to preach.
If I were just finding his blog today and reading that post before anything else, I doubt I'd have much reason to keep reading any further.
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On a tangentially related note, I started listening to the ChooseFI podcast again recently and I'm noticing a pattern there too where more of the episodes seem to be centered around spending money efficiently rather than not spending it at all.
ChooseFI was never on MMM's level of frugality. Even in the early days they'd have podcasts about DIY and other ways to save money, but it was always in the frame of "living the life you want/spend on what's important to you." Frugality for its own sake or to save the environment was never their message. After a couple years and their popularity exploding they started having really weird guests like bringing in a stock picker who talked unironically about how easy and genius it was. Then they spent a year patting themselves on the back for Playing With Fire. After that mess I was done with them.
It seems that most of the big FI influencers are now so wealthy that they're becoming less interested in saving money and more interested in spending it. Which is fine by me, but as someone who is still relatively early in the wealth accumulation stage, I do find myself longing for more content by people who are working towards FI rather than cruising along with a 7 or 8 figure net worth.
I see this too amongst the FIRE bloggers I've followed over the years. They're all running out of things to talk about now that they've made it. I could never take Go Curry Cracker too seriously because he made it very clear that his suitcase-pay-no-taxes lifestyle was almost entirely funded by his blog income while MMM framed his spending around "I'm making a ton from the blog, but not using any of it." How much of that is true we'll probably never know, but he was always trying to make a point about how under most circumstances the average reader could also be in his position eventually.
I mentioned it months ago up-thread, but I think old MMM would have been horrified at new MMM for buying a new car, regardless of what kind it was or how much he had in the bank. He's probably written a million words that could be boiled down to:
Person: "I can afford to buy this new thing!"
MMM: "Do you need it? No? Then sit back down."
Being frugal to afford what you want was always a ChooseFI or Paula Pant way of thinking. Early MMM gave no quarter for concepts like "want" or "afford." MMM declaring that buying a new car is now okay is a departure from where he started. Where I think its bothering people is that "old MMM" never gave any room in his persona or message for this kind of change or growth.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember MMM ever being against spending on "wants" unless you have hair on fire debt.
I remember him talking often about spending on things that made his life better, but how often you can improve your life through aiming to spend less.
He spoke often about how frugality isn't about deprivation.
Where he has changed his tune is on "I can afford it." His stance that the more frugal option is what will make you happier is fairly at odds with "Hey, why not splurge? You can afford it!"
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I’m looking forward to the blog article that acknowledges that buying this car wasn’t as rewarding as being a bad ass with strong frugality muscles would have been.
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With the latest post he's back to "It's awesome to be a millionaire who lives out his car doing hard sweaty work and washing off in the lake." Sure he's sleeping in a Tesla instead of a minivan, but that doesn't strike me as a completely different person than old MMM.
Now I'm off to go prep my own building site so because he's not wrong in the latest post.
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I've often been surprised about how difficult people seem to find MMM's "philosophy" to wrap their heads around. I don't really think he's changed his tune really at all. At the risk of oversimplifying, I have always taken his main message to be to apply engineering optimization to life, and to eliminate the shit that isn't worth the cost. Doing that accomplishes everything he's talked about - minimize your footprint on the planet, getting physically fit, financial success, etc. There's a lot of necessary nuance and detail to be added to that, but that's how I'd summarize it.
So to buy a new Tesla and spend a bit extra on bread isn't a diversion from that - it's just an acknowledgement that the optimizing equation changes somewhat over time. In my household, we refer to it as "throwing money at the problem". If something breaks, is it worth the time/aggravation/etc in fixing it? Or should I hire someone else/buy a replacement? As others have stated, sometimes that's the right answer.
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This is as good a place as any to share this tidbit:
Yesterday, we went to pick up our mail after a brief getaway. DH stayed in the car while I ran into the post office. When I returned, he pointed out that the (newly installed) station was charging two white Teslas. Then a third white one pulled in. In addition, there were two more white Teslas parked side-by-side, away from the chargers. That end of the parking lot was otherwise empty, so five white Teslas at or around the chargers. Then he told me to look at the two parked side-by-side carefully. Sure enough, the larger one was moving. As in nobody in the front seats, but the car's bouncing kind of moving. Apparently somebody was getting a different kind of charge in the back of their spacious Tesla.
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I swear Paula Pant is doing the voice overs for Nordstrom Rack. That's a hella side hustle.
Honestly MMM's story could be rewritten as "Guy leaves engineering job after accumulating enough to run his own business. Business does great, giving him enough to spend his excess how he wants."
Problem is that his spending now apparently conflicts with the germ of his business, kind of like a guy who got rich building a business servicing pools now paying someone to service his own pool while actively preaching that only spendy idiots pay to have their pool serviced.
The friction is any appearance of justification for the luxury instead of just admitting that he can do whatever he wants and abandoning pretense. He wants it, he can afford it. No hand waiving needed.
As someone else said, the message may now be converted to "get out of the rat race and go live a better life that you will enjoy, and model that better life for others." Not an unreasonable message. The sacred cows get slaughtered eventually.
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I think many objections or apparent contradictions center around the purchase of a new vs. a used car.
I think anyone straddling that line hasn't bought a car in a while. I would never consider the purchase of a new car normally, but when we had to look last year the cost of used cars exceeded the cost of the same car new. And that was without taking any consideration of incentives to purchase electric vehicles. Economically- last year if I had to purchase a car it would have been a new electric vehicle- it would far and away have been the best use of capital. Fortunately, we managed to avoid a purchase at all.
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I think an under-discussed aspect of Pete's 'retirement' is, using his latest post as an example, he has the financial and time freedom to do anything he wants and his idea of retirement is buying a new Tesla, driving out to the woods and building a cabin. I don't know any of the details, I didn't really read the post since none of it mattered to me, but building a cabin isn't free and most people want to be paid if they are building a cabin for someone else... A lot of his 'retirement' either sounds a lot like unpaid work (if he is building a cabin for other people) or work (if he is buying all the cabin materials and building it for himself or for renting out)...
Not to get nitpicky, but Pete has a very creative way of avoiding talking about money and work. Fortunately, he can afford to do stuff like build cabins for free for people, and he probably makes very good friends when he volunteers his tools and labor, but I wonder how many people who read his blog think that once you FIRE money is just an endless firehose that allows you to not worry about stuff like getting injured, buying new tools and toys, and of course buying more stuff for the business like building materials for the stuff that goes in to his posts (new kitchens, additions, etc.)... If you don't have a $400k blog income, the balancing the wants and needs part is a bit more complicated.