"because I want it and can afford it"

[Sanitary Stache]

That “what got you here won’t get you there” quote rang hollow for me.

Where does it come from? Is it something rich people say to themselves to justify excess?  I don’t remember reading it in Your Money or Your Life. And it certainly depends on where you are and where your going.

I thought we are going to a car free future. The  conveniences of a luxury car certainly got us to this despicable car culture and luxury cars are definitely not getting us to different place. MMM meant his unattributed quote to justify not exercising his frugality muscles, but he should have applied it to the car culture he sometimes dislikes.

I thought there is an aspect of Enough involved in wealth accumulation which doesn’t change the definition of enough as you keep getting more. Obviously MMM has surpassed that. As have many people on the forum. There have been several “how do I spend it” posts on here lately. This MMM post is timely in that sense. Though I would have preferred he not buy a new car and instead promote spending more on buying more ethically produced food. Or not traveling by airplane.

Honestly why did he buy a personal car and not just start a ride share services. I am getting a little worked up thinking about how he could have bought four teslas and set up his own local rideshare rental business at his co-working space or on his street. Maybe he could have facilitated another person to go car free.

The blog post reads like MMM has been hanging out with rich people. Like he is entitled to spend the money because he has it. Which is something I am picking up from this thread also. And is also a question I ask myself living in this rich place. Am I entitled to spend this money because I have it? 

It is a question that pushes me to spend in the best way possible. MMM wasn’t only about spending less money. It is a philosophy that describes optimizing. DIY. Health. Experiences, Family, and Friends. Though MMM did have some strong opinions and many early blog posts were a lot about making a point.

I do think there is an upper limit to how much wealth a family should be able to have. MMM used to describe his income as a fire hose of money. When he once directed people to point that hose at their debt and to fill their savings, he now is recommending people waste it. I don’t like wasting water. I feel less strongly about wasting money, but I still don’t like to read about it.

Which is fine. I haven’t read all MMMs posts and there are others of them that I also don’t want to read.

[GilesMM]

Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/ ...Aren’t I Mr. Fancypants?  No, actually I am not. This stuff isn’t anything to brag about. Although I am enjoying it at the moment, it is actually an indulgence of a weakness, and I had better watch myself....“I am Mr. Bigshot”, I thought to myself. “I sit in bigass cars..



https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/ ... our current life is already more than enough. We don’t want to lose the challenge and the spice that is part of life right now. I have only one digestive system, so I can’t eat any more spectacular food than I already do. My house is already big enough to hold everything I own, plus all my friends. My subcompact Scion hatchback can easily hold the whole family and our stuff, and exceed any legal speed limit. How could an even fancier car possibly make us any happier?...I’d like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So I’d rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness....


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/18/reader-case-study-the-black-hole-second-home/  ...Buying a second home is usually a bad financial proposition, because you are instantly creating an average 50% vacancy rate in each house. And that’s before accounting for the duplicate furniture, appliances, and all the commuting you’ll do between them. In business, idle resources are a red flag, and they should be in your personal life as well. Instead, focus on making your own house the one you want to live in, having more fun close to home, and renting vacation spots when you need them....

[Metalcat]

The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.

That was literally the exact message I took from the blog. Lol.

[nickelwise]

There are two issues here:

There's Pete buying a car he's wanted for years and there's MMM writing an article justifying consumerism.

I like the way you divided "Pete" and the "MMM" persona here. It's an interesting solution. MMM lately is closer to plain Pete, but early on it was more clearly a larger-than-life persona with a lot more bravado than Pete himself would personally display in interviews, for example. It would have been a cute workaround if this blog article were prefaced with "Special Guest Poster: Pete" or even bring back our short-lived friend "The Realist!" It would allow Pete to be transparent with his community while still allowing the "MMM" character to be a "pure" icon of "badassity".

Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?

Yeah, I remember the sentiments where Pete would be questioned about his uncommon frugality and respond that he in fact lives with an embarrassing or shameful degree of luxury already! The classic MMM articles sold the mindset and philosophy not merely as a path to wealth but as the correct way to live both for the planet and for your own happiness and well-being. Not a sacrifice, but the most fulfilling way of life. I do find it makes it harder to read the old articles and believe in that message to the same degree when the message has evolved over time. I definitely understand those who feel betrayed or disillusioned by "MMM", especially if they took the original philosophy deeply to heart, becoming an adherent of what MMM jokingly called his "cult" of frugality, and held Pete as the shining example and prophet of the One True Way to live. MMM even encouraged the mindset that non-adherents of the "doctrine" were "heretics": "clowns" or "suckas".

Of course, I don't begrudge Pete anything, and MMM owes nothing to anyone. But, I can't help but feel a growing disappointment in recent years that the self-appointed examplar of the message no longer embraces it. Maybe "convenience is a weakness that makes you a worse person" isn't a great truth of the universe spoken by the holy prophet. It's just something you tell yourself to get through the grind of the "accumulation phase". But I still want to believe there's more to the original message than that.

[Metalcat]

There are two issues here:

There's Pete buying a car he's wanted for years and there's MMM writing an article justifying consumerism.

I like the way you divided "Pete" and the "MMM" persona here. It's an interesting solution. MMM lately is closer to plain Pete, but early on it was more clearly a larger-than-life persona with a lot more bravado than Pete himself would personally display in interviews, for example. It would have been a cute workaround if this blog article were prefaced with "Special Guest Poster: Pete" or even bring back our short-lived friend "The Realist!" It would allow Pete to be transparent with his community while still allowing the "MMM" character to be a "pure" icon of "badassity".

Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?

Yeah, I remember the sentiments where Pete would be questioned about his uncommon frugality and respond that he in fact lives with an embarrassing or shameful degree of luxury already! The classic MMM articles sold the mindset and philosophy not merely as a path to wealth but as the correct way to live both for the planet and for your own happiness and well-being. Not a sacrifice, but the most fulfilling way of life. I do find it makes it harder to read the old articles and believe in that message to the same degree when the message has evolved over time. I definitely understand those who feel betrayed or disillusioned by "MMM", especially if they took the original philosophy deeply to heart, becoming an adherent of what MMM jokingly called his "cult" of frugality, and held Pete as the shining example and prophet of the One True Way to live. MMM even encouraged the mindset that non-adherents of the "doctrine" were "heretics": "clowns" or "suckas".

Of course, I don't begrudge Pete anything, and MMM owes nothing to anyone. But, I can't help but feel a growing disappointment in recent years that the self-appointed examplar of the message no longer embraces it. Maybe "convenience is a weakness that makes you a worse person" isn't a great truth of the universe spoken by the holy prophet. It's just something you tell yourself to get through the grind of the "accumulation phase". But I still want to believe there's more to the original message than that.

To be fair, I don't actually see a conflict, but that's because of my particular way of living.

For me, I see it that frugality often produces more creative, interesting, healthier, superior outcomes.

There's no question that the vast majority of consumerism doesn't really improve one's quality of life.

That said, I see early retirement as an extremely expensive luxury, but it's not the only luxury worth saving for.

Frugality, for me, has opened up levels of luxury that I never thought possible in a middle class lifestyle, and not wasting money on literal crap frees up so much for spending on things that have a real impact, whether that's more free time or my recent $1000 pillow buying spree, which trust me, sounds crazy but was worth every penny in context.

As I've said many times, thanks to the influence of MMM, I'm not cheap, I'm just a snob about spending.

It is very true that very few luxuries are worth the premium you have to pay for them, and I've learned that being able to afford a lot of luxuries still doesn't make their value worthwhile.

But there are some that offer disproportionate value in terms of quality of life, and freeing up purchase power to easily buy them when they come up is, for me, the biggest benefit of frugality.

We eat rice and beans, do DIY, and minimize driving, etc, etc, etc so that we have the flexibility and freedom to work as much or as little as we want to AND to be able to pull the trigger when something spectacularly worth spending on comes along.

Do *I* think a Tesla is spectacularly worth spending on? Absolutely not. But I'm not Pete. He's wanted this for so long, it obviously means something significant to him. I couldn't care less about the experience of driving and owning a Tesla, but I am freakishly obsessed with the ocean and paid about the same amount so that I can spend my summers sitting around watching whales.

Would that be worth it to Pete? Obviously not, or he would have spent on it already.

The key is to truly know yourself and know what luxuries can actually substantially improve your quality of life. Being able to walk away from work is just one of those luxuries, but there are others.

[nickelwise]

The key is to truly know yourself and know what luxuries can actually substantially improve your quality of life. Being able to walk away from work is just one of those luxuries, but there are others.

Great post Metalcat, I like this way of looking at things.

[Alternatepriorities]

For me, I see it that frugality often produces more creative, interesting, healthier, superior outcomes.

There's no question that the vast majority of consumerism doesn't really improve one's quality of life.

That said, I see early retirement as an extremely expensive luxury, but it's not the only luxury worth saving for.

Wow @Metalcat, That was a great summary and it's good to remember the early retirement is an absurd luxury many of us have chosen to purchase...  Also thanks for reminding me that I need to go make some more beans :)

[obstinate]

Remember when Pete used to write stuff like this?


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/29/luxury-is-just-another-weakness/ ...Aren’t I Mr. Fancypants?  No, actually I am not. This stuff isn’t anything to brag about. Although I am enjoying it at the moment, it is actually an indulgence of a weakness, and I had better watch myself....“I am Mr. Bigshot”, I thought to myself. “I sit in bigass cars..



https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/25/why-should-i-be-frugal-when-im-so-rich/ ... our current life is already more than enough. We don’t want to lose the challenge and the spice that is part of life right now. I have only one digestive system, so I can’t eat any more spectacular food than I already do. My house is already big enough to hold everything I own, plus all my friends. My subcompact Scion hatchback can easily hold the whole family and our stuff, and exceed any legal speed limit. How could an even fancier car possibly make us any happier?...I’d like to issue a challenge that you consider deflating, rather than inflating your own lifestyle as you get richer. The desire for luxury, while very real and occasionally pleasant to satisfy, is actually a weakness that stands in the way of a happier life. Getting off of the path that society has beaten for you will lead to much better adventures. So I’d rather work towards strength as I get older, rather than striving for weakness....


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/18/reader-case-study-the-black-hole-second-home/  ...Buying a second home is usually a bad financial proposition, because you are instantly creating an average 50% vacancy rate in each house. And that’s before accounting for the duplicate furniture, appliances, and all the commuting you’ll do between them. In business, idle resources are a red flag, and they should be in your personal life as well. Instead, focus on making your own house the one you want to live in, having more fun close to home, and renting vacation spots when you need them....

I am not the same as I was ten years ago either. Many people do not aspire to preference stasis. Learning about your values and what makes you happy is not a bad thing.

Also, frugality is, like most things, a spectrum. Pete was never the most frugal person in the world. There's at least two billion people in China, India, and Africa who get by on less than he did, even in his most frugal period. A single instance of splurging (on something easily afforded, no less) does not a spendthrift make.

So, yes, this action is not consistent with certain absolutist statements Pete made in the last fifteen years. Those statements were things he probably believed at the time, or maybe felt, and thought would be edifying to his readers. And he was right. Many people, myself included, benefitted greatly from his insights on hedonism.

But, his views and preferences have changed, and now he finds that what he felt in the past is not quite as universal as he believed it to be at the time. He's human, in other words.

[HeadedWest2029]

When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE.  MMM bought a fancy car.  Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life.  Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons.  Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.

It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind.  Even the idea of "know yourself" seems dubious...things I thought would never change in my life that felt like unchanging values have indeed changed from decade to decade so the most reasonable assumption going forward is I will indeed change again, sometimes drastically.  I take the ideas from MMM and others that truly make me introspective about what it means to live a meaningful life and discard the other stuff that doesn't resonate.  For instance, he posts a lot about DIY home improvement & repair.  My personal torture box is poring over DIY YouTube videos trying to figure out how to do something and then spending my entire weekend cursing because everything goes completely went off the rails.  I've just accepted that some DIY stuff is not for me and I prefer various other forms of voluntary hardship.  I find I'd just rather use my FI status to pay someone to do those painful DIY projects and spend the weekend with my family on a hike. 

But a still like reading some of the OG posts on the MMM blog...a lot of bangers that are timeless

[Psychstache]

When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE.  MMM bought a fancy car.  Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life.  Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons.  Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.

It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind.  Even the idea of "know yourself" seems dubious...things I thought would never change in my life that felt like unchanging values have indeed changed from decade to decade so the most reasonable assumption going forward is I will indeed change again, sometimes drastically.  I take the ideas from MMM and others that truly make me introspective about what it means to live a meaningful life and discard the other stuff that doesn't resonate.  For instance, he posts a lot about DIY home improvement & repair.  My personal torture box is poring over DIY YouTube videos trying to figure out how to do something and then spending my entire weekend cursing because everything goes completely went off the rails.  I've just accepted that some DIY stuff is not for me and I prefer various other forms of voluntary hardship.  I find I'd just rather use my FI status to pay someone to do those painful DIY projects and spend the weekend with my family on a hike. 

But a still like reading some of the OG posts on the MMM blog...a lot of bangers that are timeless

Consistency is the most overrated virtue. There are contexts where it is important, but in general it is overvalued in modern society.

[mspym]

I dunno, I've recently been looking at EV cars because we are moving countries and a Tesla 3 is basically the same price as a Nissan Leaf*. Like, this doesn't seem like The Height Of Luxury for someone replacing a 20year old van that's been driven into the ground.

I guess in the frugality race to the bottom we are all sinners but I have no interest in casting the first stone.

*in New Zealand, prices in your country may differ

[GilesMM]

When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE.  MMM bought a fancy car.  Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life.  Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons.  Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.

It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind...

Except one can't help wondering if
a) maybe they didn't change their mind and it was all a sham from the beginning
b) they are only fessing up to the parts they thing they will get caught at, which may be only the tip of the iceberg.


There are countless examples of popular swamis who ended up being defrocked for assorted violations of the very practices they preached.

[Paper Chaser]

The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.

[MasterStache]

When I think about some of the most influential bloggers for me, almost of all them have changed their minds on something that seemed like a core idea to their philosophy around FIRE.  MMM bought a fancy car.  Go Curry Cracker ended up buying a house and settling down after posting about being a renter for life.  Living a FI went back to work because of various reasons.  Almost all of them have loosened the belt on their spending.

It's cool, people change, life circumstances change, and I don't hold it against them for changing their mind.  Even the idea of "know yourself" seems dubious...things I thought would never change in my life that felt like unchanging values have indeed changed from decade to decade so the most reasonable assumption going forward is I will indeed change again, sometimes drastically.  I take the ideas from MMM and others that truly make me introspective about what it means to live a meaningful life and discard the other stuff that doesn't resonate.  For instance, he posts a lot about DIY home improvement & repair.  My personal torture box is poring over DIY YouTube videos trying to figure out how to do something and then spending my entire weekend cursing because everything goes completely went off the rails.  I've just accepted that some DIY stuff is not for me and I prefer various other forms of voluntary hardship.  I find I'd just rather use my FI status to pay someone to do those painful DIY projects and spend the weekend with my family on a hike. 

But a still like reading some of the OG posts on the MMM blog...a lot of bangers that are timeless

I don't frequent the blog much but RootOfGood seems to still be living the same ethos a decade into retirement and watching their stash more than double in the same time period. Ironically I wonder why they aren't spending more money. Ha!

[obstinate]

Except one can't help wondering if
a) maybe they didn't change their mind and it was all a sham from the beginning
b) they are only fessing up to the parts they thing they will get caught at, which may be only the tip of the iceberg.


There are countless examples of popular swamis who ended up being defrocked for assorted violations of the very practices they preached.

You might wonder if that but I think the balance of evidence is pretty clear.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I wonder where the blog goes from here.  Personally, I wish he would've quit while he was on top (like ERE did), a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies.  The problem with publishing new posts from his 'rich' perspective is that this has become the Mustachianism message and drowns out what I thought was his most valuable early content...

I liked what Metalcat said about his Pete vs. MMM persona.  MMM was intended to be an aspirational character hyperbolizing about environmentalism, stoicism, hardship, and independence to make valuable points.  The blog is now about the regular guy behind the curtain who is rich and lives like other wealthy people do.

[Mr. Green]

I wonder where the blog goes from here.  Personally, I wish he would've quit while he was on top (like ERE did), a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies.  The problem with publishing new posts from his 'rich' perspective is that this has become the Mustachianism message and drowns out what I thought was his most valuable early content...

I liked what Metalcat said about his Pete vs. MMM persona.  MMM was intended to be an aspirational character hyperbolizing about environmentalism, stoicism, hardship, and independence to make valuable points.  The blog is now about the regular guy behind the curtain who is rich and lives like other wealthy people do.

That's the challenge. The recent entries absolutely damage his original brand. But I do recognize the value in showing how the person to created the MMM persona is changing as their FIRE journey continues. I think there would be interest from folks seeing how Pete's life has evolved but some type of arm's length language would help better preserve the MMM persona. I think people can read the blog and see both sides.

[LD_TAndK]

...
a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies.
...

If I stumbled upon MMM now like I did in 2014, as a not wealthy, young, dissatisfied professional and the first article I read was a self-justification on spending big bucks on a luxury vehicle I don't think I would have cared to finish the blog post let alone read any other blog entries.

[NaN]

...
a lot of the recent stuff is in conflict with the original message and alienates the newbies.
...

If I stumbled upon MMM now like I did in 2014, as a not wealthy, young, dissatisfied professional and the first article I read was a self-justification on spending big bucks on a luxury vehicle I don't think I would have cared to finish the blog post let alone read any other blog entries.

oh totally. I am not sure Pete understands this part, or just doesn't care. l am just disappointed MMM, *not Pete, ended up like he did from all his earlier posts. I mean a post about a f'ing brand new $50k car. All the other stuff in the latest post about learning to live a good life, not sweat about $7 bread, etc. Okay. I get those. Makes sense. But a whole new article about justifying a brand NEW car, too. Like @Metalcat sort of talked about, he could have just been Pete, bought the car, and not posted about it by keeping MMM separate from Pete. It seems there is some understanding here that people can change, do what the want, indulge in their choice of luxuries when they have the funds, etc. Could you imagine if the earlier MMM articles had a disclaimer at the bottom: "WARNING: in 2023 I will post relentlessly about buying a new car and I'll love it"?

[GuitarStv]

I remember articles about stoicism, learning to be happy with less, consuming fewer resources, and eschewing commercialism as being what initially drew me to the site.  This seems like such a far departure from that message.

[FireLane]

I liked what Metalcat said about his Pete vs. MMM persona.  MMM was intended to be an aspirational character hyperbolizing about environmentalism, stoicism, hardship, and independence to make valuable points.  The blog is now about the regular guy behind the curtain who is rich and lives like other wealthy people do.

I wouldn't go that far. A new Tesla is definitely a luxury purchase, but unless Pete has made some big lifestyle upgrades I haven't heard about, he still leads a more modest life than the vast majority of people with his net worth.

Now, if he hires a personal chef or a private jet share...

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I’ll even go so far as to say I’m disappointed Pete is not more of a crazy environmental philanthropist’ now that he has the means and the platform.  Warren Buffett isn’t perfect, but most people admire that he has kept ‘middle class’ tastes (at least persona wise), Gates has made a good name for himself with his active philanthropy, etc…. Pete doesn’t have to live up to my expectations, but I honestly thought wealthy world saving environmentalist or some such thing was where this was all eventually headed.  Who knows, maybe this is his midlife crisis??

[scantee]

It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.

In the end, none of this really matters. All of us here are small potatoes, including Pete.

[habanero]

I dont have extensive knowledge about the FIRE blogosphere, but the most prominent ones, by force of being the most prominent ones, generally end up in a situation where what preached (live frugally, accumulate enough financial wealth, retire early, enjoy lifte) doesn't match what happens to themselves as the blogging about said things end up bringing in a fuckton of money in the most successful cases.

I don't really care what someone chooses to do with their own money and the purchase of a Tesla doesnt bother me (I drive one myself) but it at least shows that it can be diffuciult at young age to predict what your future self would like and what to spend money on and how much to spend. Life happens and people change.

[StarBright]

It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.

In the end, none of this really matters. All of us here are small potatoes, including Pete.

As a human who likes to read things on the internet, I agree with the bolded. That is what I would like to read.

As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.

But I've never been a fan of the Mr. Money Mustache persona, I've just appreciated the community (and migrated over here after the Dave Ramsey boards shut down).

[habanero]

As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.

At least the dude can get some credit for admitting it. I alwats found the spending reports tad iffy as there were obv stuff omitted to make it look low and that you would spend money on if it wasn't part of a business and hence magically disappeared from personal spending.

So guess its "live frugally, amass financial wealth so you don't have to live frugally anymore" is the current message. A variant of it is "go big early, then chill" - if you accumulate a good stash early in life chances are good it will compound past your spending needs.

[Metta]

But there are some that offer disproportionate value in terms of quality of life, and freeing up purchase power to easily buy them when they come up is, for me, the biggest benefit of frugality.

We eat rice and beans, do DIY, and minimize driving, etc, etc, etc so that we have the flexibility and freedom to work as much or as little as we want to AND to be able to pull the trigger when something spectacularly worth spending on comes along.

This feels right to me. We have our own dragon's den of riches as a result of frugality. But recently we moved to our favorite state (New Mexico) and bought an old house that's too big in a neighborhood that makes our hearts thump faster. We hadn't known someplace so perfect for us existed. We renovated the house to the point that we find it livable and beautiful. We spent more on this house than we have ever spent on anything in our lives. But we are still fine with money and we can continue to give away money to worthwhile causes. And even though Albuquerque isn't as cheap a housing market as Memphis was, it's still quite affordable.

Every night we walk outside into this beautiful neighborhood or walk down to the Bosque (the river path along the Rio Grande) and feel happy. It's reduced our spending on gas and a few other things. It's given us more opportunities for fitness without joining a gym. It fits all our books and games without a fuss. It provides a place for family and friends to stay when they come here. So those are the benefits.

On the other hand, I feel guilty about it if I think too hard. There are plenty of people who have so much less. There is a strong point to be made (and I've made it) that large houses in and of themselves are wasteful and harmful to the environment. We are doing what we can to minimize environmental weight (installing solar panels, moving toward xeriscaping, etc.) but it probably doesn't change the calculus much compared to living in an apartment instead of this house.

In the end, we decided our quality of life mattered more than being perfectly frugal or perfectly environmental. I'm ok with that. But I don't fool myself that it is mustachian.

[zolotiyeruki]

I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people. 

It really boils down to a kind of math.  Everything has a "happiness cost" (call it HC for short).  It looks like this:
When you're poor/starting out/spending poorly: The HC of a new Tesla (you'll have to work several more years, less flexibility in the budget, living beyond your means, worry about getting it scratched, it represents a big chunk of your NW) is typically greater than the HC of driving an older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down).  Buying the used car makes sense here.

When you're rich: The HC of a new Tesla (a tiny bit less certainty because your portfolio is a teeny bit smaller) is a lot lower than the HC of the older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down).  Here, the Tesla makes sense, if your goal is to optimize happiness.

Note that the underlying premise of "optimizing for happiness" hasn't changed.  But because the person's circumstances are different, so is the outcome.  The lion's share of the MMM blog posts focussed on the first group, and for them, frugality absolutely is appropriate.  Because it was such a dominant theme, it's understandable that people have confused the means (frugality) with the ends (happiness).  Where the tool of frugality stops serving happiness, or actively impedes happiness (by inducing analysis paralysis (like the bread) or making you miss important life events or degrades relationships), it may be set aside.

Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands.  Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time.  That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement?  Yep.  I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.

[Paper Chaser]

I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people. 

Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands.  Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time.  That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement?  Yep.  I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.

Time is the most valuable resource that we have. That's why early retirement is so appealing. It's trading wasteful spending on stuff now for more time in the future. But buying a $50k+ Tesla isn't saving MMM any time. And it's no better environmentally than a less expensive EV. He can clearly afford the Tesla, so financial concerns aren't all that relevant. But many of his recent actions seem completely opposed to  the environmentalism/conspicuous consumption focus of MMM's early blogging days. Lusting after the flashy toy, (at least in part to show off to others) is a fairly natural human desire. But MMM (and Pete if we're separating the two) would've ripped those actions and motivations apart.

It reads more and more as if all of the early blog posts were just mental gymnastics to reframe austerity and make it easier to get through the difficult accumulation phase rather than actual deeply held beliefs.

[clifp]

I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people. 

It really boils down to a kind of math.  Everything has a "happiness cost" (call it HC for short).  It looks like this:
When you're poor/starting out/spending poorly: The HC of a new Tesla (you'll have to work several more years, less flexibility in the budget, living beyond your means, worry about getting it scratched, it represents a big chunk of your NW) is typically greater than the HC of driving an older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down).  Buying the used car makes sense here.

When you're rich: The HC of a new Tesla (a tiny bit less certainty because your portfolio is a teeny bit smaller) is a lot lower than the HC of the older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down).  Here, the Tesla makes sense, if your goal is to optimize happiness.

Note that the underlying premise of "optimizing for happiness" hasn't changed.  But because the person's circumstances are different, so is the outcome.  The lion's share of the MMM blog posts focussed on the first group, and for them, frugality absolutely is appropriate.  Because it was such a dominant theme, it's understandable that people have confused the means (frugality) with the ends (happiness).  Where the tool of frugality stops serving happiness, or actively impedes happiness (by inducing analysis paralysis (like the bread) or making you miss important life events or degrades relationships), it may be set aside.

Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands.  Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time.  That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement?  Yep.  I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.

Extremely well put.

Jeff Bezo ages ago said he tried to optimize for regret minimization, looking back ten years in the future and wishing he had done something differently.

I try and optimize to minimize spending time on things I don't want to do.  Which for me is most physical labor, and household chores.  It also includes worrying about a car not starting, having to take a car into a dealership etc. 

June will be the 10th anniversary of me driving a Tesla,  (first the cheapest S, and now a pretty barebones 3).  I still enjoy the instant torque,  the amazing display, and the quiet.   I also like the constant improvements via over the air updates.  Plus the simple things it does, that for the life of me I don't understand why other car companies don't do.  When I leave a car, I want the car to keep the lights on for a few minutes, I then want the car to shut itself off and lock the doors.  I like the feeling of knowing that solar panels on my house provide all of the energy needed to run the house and also charge the car, which significantly reduces my carbon footprint.

Frugality is a virtue up to a point and if it makes you happy that's great, but for most people, it should be a means to end.   It starts to become silly after a point.  Intel cofounder Gordon Moore, looking for change for a quarter to use a pay phone (they cost a dime many decades ago) after he became a billionaire.   It even can become dangerous, I once shared a ride with a guy to Lake Tahoe, who in order to save gas got and pushed his car during rush hour. 

Looking back, I lost a girlfriend, because my frugality was probably excessive.

The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.

[ender]

The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.

This is rhetorical right?

[NorCal]

I guess I feel slightly less bad about my Tesla purchase now.

[badger1988]

I made it about 2 paragraphs into the blog post before I scrolled back up to see if it was posted on April 1st. I didn't bother finishing it.

[clifp]

The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.

This is rhetorical right?

So if buying a new car slightly more expensive than average is a "ridiculous" luxury.

Than what adjective do you use to describe buying a car that cost more than $300,000 or $1 million?

How about $50 million Gulfstream?

What about 400' yacht, with two helipads and a submarine?.

There 15-17 million new cars/trucks, sold each year.  For many people buying a new car is a frivolous luxury, but for many others, it is not, including Pete.

[moof]

I’ll even go so far as to say I’m disappointed Pete is not more of a crazy environmental philanthropist’ now that he has the means and the platform.  Warren Buffett isn’t perfect, but most people admire that he has kept ‘middle class’ tastes (at least persona wise), Gates has made a good name for himself with his active philanthropy, etc…. Pete doesn’t have to live up to my expectations, but I honestly thought wealthy world saving environmentalist or some such thing was where this was all eventually headed.  Who knows, maybe this is his midlife crisis??

I’m pretty sure that frugal environmentalist MMM would facepunch the hell out of YOLO Pete.  I had a hard time slogging through the whole writeup.  The mental dissonance of trying to keep reconcile early posts with this one required more doublethink than I could muster.

[Valley of Plenty]

This seems very simple to me, and I don't understand why so many are struggling to wrap their head around it.

His old van kicked the bucket. He needed a new vehicle. He purchased a new vehicle that will be optimal for accomplishing the things he needs it to accomplish. He spent less than 1% of his net worth on the purchase.

There is nothing anti-mustachian about this purchase within the context of his situation. Anti-mustachian would have been if he went out and bought a Tesla just for the sake of having one, without having any practical need for it to fill. He needed a new vehicle, he bought a new vehicle. With cash. And it will have absolutely no negative impact on his finances, or how he lives his life.

Some of y'all are talking as if he just went out and bought a gilded yacht. It's a car. A car that will efficiently do all the things he needs it for. Would it somehow be better if he had gone out and bought another $4500 minivan? What practical difference would that in any way make? The $45,000 difference is meaningless to his financial situation. It would serve the exact same function as the tesla, the only possible advantage is cost savings, which is meaningless to his situation.

I will consider criticizing Pete when he starts spending his money on things that add no value to his life. A replacement vehicle does not fit that criteria.

[Valley of Plenty]

It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.

As a human who likes to read things on the internet, I agree with the bolded. That is what I would like to read.

As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.

But I've never been a fan of the Mr. Money Mustache persona, I've just appreciated the community (and migrated over here after the Dave Ramsey boards shut down).

Quite audacious to be assuming/insisting that Pete is "struggling right now"

He certainly seems to be happy, and doing very well for himself. And I'm not just saying that because of the recent purchase.

I don't pretend to know Pete well at all (certainly not as well as those on this forum who know him personally), but I've had the opportunity to talk at length with him in person twice in the last couple years (once at CampFI and once at EconoME), and he certainly did not strike me as someone who is struggling. Quite the opposite, he gives off a palpable aura of positivity that is very contagious. Dude is living his best life as far as I can tell.

It's certainly not the place of anyone on this forum to speculate that this purchase signifies a "struggle" or "mid-life crisis",  much less to suggest that he should publish an article admitting to such things just so you can feel better about his purchase.

[MasterStache]

I *still* maintain that it's all about optimizing for happiness, and that frugality is a means to that end for most people. 

It really boils down to a kind of math.  Everything has a "happiness cost" (call it HC for short).  It looks like this:
When you're poor/starting out/spending poorly: The HC of a new Tesla (you'll have to work several more years, less flexibility in the budget, living beyond your means, worry about getting it scratched, it represents a big chunk of your NW) is typically greater than the HC of driving an older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down).  Buying the used car makes sense here.

When you're rich: The HC of a new Tesla (a tiny bit less certainty because your portfolio is a teeny bit smaller) is a lot lower than the HC of the older car (a little more maintenance, worry about it breaking down).  Here, the Tesla makes sense, if your goal is to optimize happiness.

Note that the underlying premise of "optimizing for happiness" hasn't changed.  But because the person's circumstances are different, so is the outcome.  The lion's share of the MMM blog posts focussed on the first group, and for them, frugality absolutely is appropriate.  Because it was such a dominant theme, it's understandable that people have confused the means (frugality) with the ends (happiness).  Where the tool of frugality stops serving happiness, or actively impedes happiness (by inducing analysis paralysis (like the bread) or making you miss important life events or degrades relationships), it may be set aside.

Here's another example: about 10 years ago when I was introduced to MMM, my kids and I were a lot younger, and I was making a lot less money and had more time on my hands.  Now, my kids are older, I have a lot less free time, and so my focus has shifted a little bit away from how I spend my money and towards how I spend my time.  That means that I now spend money on thing that, ten years ago, I never would have considered, because it better aligns with what makes me happy now. Will it delay my retirement?  Yep.  I'm fully aware that it's not a frugal thing to do, but it's still a mustachian thing to do, because it better optimizes my happiness.

Happiness should never really be a "goal," so to speak, in terms of spending. Some of the happiest folks on the planet (true happiness) have next to nothing. I've kind of learned myself that true happiness isn't a new car, bigger house or even a growing retirement nest egg. It's absolutely internal. It's being present in the now. The article on Stoicism really ties into this.

Big purchases like this get the heart pumping for a bit. You get excited. But eventually that wears off. If this is a purchase to optimize happiness, it doesn't really make sense to me. It seems more like it just fills a desire and/or need.

DH is still working while I am mostly retired (do carpentry work on the side occasionally, like Pete, HA!) We have some desirable travel plans in the future once our youngest is through school and DH retires. At that point we may splurge on a newer, more expensive vehicle that will fill a need in our travel plans. Sure we'll be excited but we'll still be the same amount of happiness after the purchase as before. I hope!

[StarBright]

It absolutely seems like he is having a midlife crisis. And he could head off a lot of criticism by saying, hey, I’m kind of struggling right now, and I think people would empathize. But he is too proud to admit that fact even to himself so there’s a lot of this sort of post hoc justification.

As a human who likes to read things on the internet, I agree with the bolded. That is what I would like to read.

As someone who has always been put off by the holier-than-thou, face punch persona: this continues to feel holier-than-thou, but now because he's just rich which feels infinitely ickier to me.

But I've never been a fan of the Mr. Money Mustache persona, I've just appreciated the community (and migrated over here after the Dave Ramsey boards shut down).

Quite audacious to be assuming/insisting that Pete is "struggling right now"

He certainly seems to be happy, and doing very well for himself. And I'm not just saying that because of the recent purchase.

I don't pretend to know Pete well at all (certainly not as well as those on this forum who know him personally), but I've had the opportunity to talk at length with him in person twice in the last couple years (once at CampFI and once at EconoME), and he certainly did not strike me as someone who is struggling. Quite the opposite, he gives off a palpable aura of positivity that is very contagious. Dude is living his best life as far as I can tell.

It's certainly not the place of anyone on this forum to speculate that this purchase signifies a "struggle" or "mid-life crisis",  much less to suggest that he should publish an article admitting to such things just so you can feel better about his purchase.

Excellent point. FWIW- when I commented it wasn't so much about the mid-life crisis aspect, but associating the word "struggle" with the idea of being human.

Back in the earlier days of the blog and forum, convenience spending was for "clowns" and was considered an "exploding volcano of wastefulness" and once you "realized that truth" you would achieve happiness.  And, let's be honest, MMM and earlier devotees would pull no punches in telling you why you were a chump if some convenience spending popped up in your budget.

10 years later MMM has written a post where he is saying his convenience is okay, because he can afford it. This convenience spending is adding to his happiness.

I think there are some of us who have been on the forum a very long time, who have been accused of "softening" the forum, but have simply been saying what MMM is now saying. Sometimes doing it the hard way is a pain and even wears us out. We are human, and sometimes a little convenience (as long as you can afford it), is the thing that helps you keep going.

But instead of just saying "Hey, I'm human, and my thoughts have changed." We instead get a post where a clown car is framed as a frugal purchase.

As previously stated, I've never been into the persona in general, mostly because it is terribly unbalanced and a little mean. So it isn't shocking that I would also be annoyed with this new post :). But also, I find it hypocritical now, in a way I didn't a decade ago.

[ender]

The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.

This is rhetorical right?

So if buying a new car slightly more expensive than average is a "ridiculous" luxury.

Than what adjective do you use to describe buying a car that cost more than $300,000 or $1 million?

How about $50 million Gulfstream?

What about 400' yacht, with two helipads and a submarine?.

There 15-17 million new cars/trucks, sold each year.  For many people buying a new car is a frivolous luxury, but for many others, it is not, including Pete.

Ah, silly me, I thought we were talking about the same MMM who has talked about how typical middle class spenidng is a fountain of waste for most of the last decade.

I must be thinking of a different blogger.

[GuitarStv]

The average new car is $48K Pete spend $52K, so really don't see how buying a new car is a ridiculous luxury.

This is rhetorical right?

So if buying a new car slightly more expensive than average is a "ridiculous" luxury.

Than what adjective do you use to describe buying a car that cost more than $300,000 or $1 million?

How about $50 million Gulfstream?

What about 400' yacht, with two helipads and a submarine?.

There 15-17 million new cars/trucks, sold each year.  For many people buying a new car is a frivolous luxury, but for many others, it is not, including Pete.

Ah, silly me, I thought we were talking about the same MMM who has talked about how typical middle class spenidng is a fountain of waste for most of the last decade.

I must be thinking of a different blogger.

You were.  MMM-classic was a different blogger than MMM-yolo.

[deborah]

About seven years ago, I had a talk with Pete. I explained to him that I’d retired some years before, and that I’d recently bought a new car. He said he had no facepunches for me because I was already retired, was still living well within my means and was living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people. We all see that Pete is still living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people, despite buying ONE lifestyle binge. As Paula Pant says, you can afford anything, just not everything. Once you have dialled in a frugal lifestyle, it’s amazing how much you save, and how you can afford the occasional lifestyle binge.

[MasterStache]

About seven years ago, I had a talk with Pete. I explained to him that I’d retired some years before, and that I’d recently bought a new car. He said he had no facepunches for me because I was already retired, was still living well within my means and was living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people. We all see that Pete is still living a much more frugal lifestyle than most people, despite buying ONE lifestyle binge. As Paula Pant says, you can afford anything, just not everything. Once you have dialled in a frugal lifestyle, it’s amazing how much you save, and how you can afford the occasional lifestyle binge.

Living within your means just means having enough money to cover all expenses. Being frugal is a bit more subjective but does entail one spending very little and an absence of luxury. No doubt Pete is still living within his means but it certainly doesn't seem that a $52K luxury car fits with the frugal concept. I don't how you quantify "more frugal than most." The average household expenditure in 2021 was $67K.

[former player]

My understanding is that outside somewhere like New York city it is more or less impossible for most people to live a reasonably active and comfortable life in the USA without access to a road vehicle of some sort.  Is that right?

Anyone living more than an absolutely bare bones life in the USA is using up more of the planet's resources than can be replaced in their lifetime, so everyone there is more or less an environmental vandal (the same is true of almost everyone living in the G7 but it's more true of the USA than most).

Actually, given the federal and State government's use of environmental resources everyone in the USA is several times over their lifetime environmental budget before taking into account their personal uses. 

The extent to which this planet is fucked is easy to ignore, of course.  Until it isn't, which is probably not until our comfortable lives become immediately unsustainable.

[clifp]

You were.  MMM-classic was a different blogger than MMM-yolo.

He is.  There aren't many benefits of getting older, but realizing the world isn't as black and white as you thought it was when you are younger is one of them.

I'd like to think that Pete having spent a number of years, without a 9-5 to job, having accumulated enough wealth that money is significantly less important than it was a dozen years ago, and having been through a divorce, that was partly due to conflicts about lifestyle, he has developed a more nuanced view about spending and the limits of frugality.

When the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do sir?

[Valley of Plenty]

Back in the earlier days of the blog and forum, convenience spending was for "clowns" and was considered an "exploding volcano of wastefulness" and once you "realized that truth" you would achieve happiness.  And, let's be honest, MMM and earlier devotees would pull no punches in telling you why you were a chump if some convenience spending popped up in your budget.

10 years later MMM has written a post where he is saying his convenience is okay, because he can afford it. This convenience spending is adding to his happiness.

I think there are some of us who have been on the forum a very long time, who have been accused of "softening" the forum, but have simply been saying what MMM is now saying. Sometimes doing it the hard way is a pain and even wears us out. We are human, and sometimes a little convenience (as long as you can afford it), is the thing that helps you keep going.

But instead of just saying "Hey, I'm human, and my thoughts have changed." We instead get a post where a clown car is framed as a frugal purchase.

As previously stated, I've never been into the persona in general, mostly because it is terribly unbalanced and a little mean. So it isn't shocking that I would also be annoyed with this new post :). But also, I find it hypocritical now, in a way I didn't a decade ago.

I only came across the blog a few years ago, but I have read every single article and I don't think this most recent post is as out of character as so many are suggesting.

Yes, MMM always criticized clown car purchases, but I think if you look at the specific instances in which he describes clown cars, you will find that they do not really apply to his recent Tesla purchase.

When MMM talked about clown car purchases in the past, he pretty much always talked about them in the context of people who aren't FI buying super expensive vehicles that are designed for functions that will never be utilized by the owner. i.e. big gigantic trucks that never haul anything, huge 7 passenger SUVs for soccer moms with 2 kids, or high performance sports cars for people who only drive on public roads. I can not recall any posts criticizing a retired millionaire with only one vehicle, which happens to be a mid-high end EV.

If Pete were filling a four car garage with high end EVs, trucks, and sports cars I would understand all the confusion and disappointment, but one mid-tier Tesla and nothing else? Seriously? This is probably the first time in the dude's life that he has spent upwards of $20k on anything other than a house, and he's been a millionaire for longer than the blog has existed. He's still living an extremely Mustachian lifestyle, with spending far below that of all but the most extremely frugal of people. He just purchased a single new EV, which he will get extensive value and use out of.

[Alternatepriorities]

I've been thinking about this some more. If Pete had never started MMM he would almost certainly still had means to buy this model Y without going back to work. In fact, without the MMM persona in mind he might very well have bought a model 3 four years ago when he posted about it.

If the latest post is really bothering you, go back and read the first half dozen posts where he switches back and forth between MMM and the realist and then just read the last post as written by the realist. I just can't see holding it against him that his witty alter-ego turned out to be wildly more popular online than the car nerd. By creating a witty blog that caught enough attention for me to find it, and establishing this community Pete saved me thousands of dollars and at least a couple years of working. Thank you Pete!

[Lews Therin]

My 2 cents,

He's putting his money towards Electric vehicles, That's why he can't go 10 years old and beat up. When you think about his earlier posts about how a van is the best option for moving things.... It's sure as hell not the cheapest option when you're looking at electric vehicles.

The Tesla gives him a vehicle that he can road trip, car camp, pull a trailer, and is fully electric.

Sure he could have gotten a used one, but realistically, there aren't that many, nor is it that much cheaper on the used car market.

The goal is to get the best vehicule without paying too much, and Pete's goal was 100% electric. There aren't that many choices below that price range for vehicules that can pull a trailer with all the stuff he throws in there...

[MasterStache]

This is probably the first time in the dude's life that he has spent upwards of $20k on anything other than a house

Not really the first time. There was the Nissan Leaf, the Detatched Studio and of course the MMM Headquarters building. I have no idea about his divorce agreements/settlements but he did buy a 2nd house after getting divorced. And of course pre-MMM days he tried his hand at running a small home building company that he did a blog post about. That certainly required greater than $20K in spending. He of course has done well despite the ups and downs of all this and can certainly buy anything he feels like buying. But he certainly has spent well north of $20K multiple times.

He's still living an extremely Mustachian lifestyle, with spending far below that of all but the most extremely frugal of people.

This seems to be a point of contention on the forum these days. Understandably so. It's gone from cut your own hair, monitor your energy bills, don't use a dryer, bike everywhere and face punches to which new Tesla should I buy? And somehow it's still being considered "mustachian" and "spending well below frugal people." It makes sense that some folks are seeking a bit more of the original MMM brand. The new MMM brand of frugal seems to be geared more towards very wealthy folks. Admittedly I'm sure many folks who implemented many of the strategies early on probably are very wealthy. So perhaps this is just the natural progression taking shape?

 

[bluecollarmusician]

People grow, change, and continue to learn.  At least, I hope we do.

I understand people who were attracted to this place because they like things that the blog said- and now it says something that seems at odds and they don't like it and they are disappointed.

Spending money on a house, or a car, or any other specific line item does not undo, or negate anything that has been previously said; it's an evolution in real time to deal with real life circumstances.  If you disagree, perhaps consider what circumstances you would AGREE to; i.e. what information would make this "ok"-? 

I also think that a philosophical change in tone is natural, and honest when faced with the reality of too many resources.  I think it will be important for many who ran endless firecalc simulations to develop a mindful plan of what to do with "way more than they planned." 

I for one, can't imagine the scrutiny and visibility that must come along with the success of the blog.  I admire the insight into his current mind.  Many of us may find it helpful in the years to come.