"because I want it and can afford it"

[NaN]

Title based on comment in the recent article. I get there are other points the guy is trying to make (1-don't be cheap and don't feel guilty about not, 2-electric cars may be good). However, what stood out to me was this:

But yes, it’s also okay to set aside a portion of the money you’ve earned, for frivolous spending on yourself and those closest to you. You’re not a bad person for having a few nice things.

The last sentence reminds me of a life ago hearing preachers in middle to upper class neighborhoods trying to make people feel not guilty about their plush area of town, spending money on lavish things, etc.

[less4success]

I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.

Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(

Edit: I feel compelled to clarify that my issue is not with the dollar amount (sure, he can afford it), but with supporting and promoting Tesla in particular (because Musk, obviously). The richer you are, the MORE conscious you can afford to be about your spending. Comparing features is for early stage Mustachians. Late stage Mustachians should be focused on making the world better first.

[MasterStache]

Anyone stumbling on the MMM blog now would probably laugh. 

[VanillaGorilla]

The guy carefully amassed a fortune, needs a car, and bought a vehicle that will cost about as much as a base model Camry over the life of the car. I think we can cut him a break.

I still greatly appreciate MMM circa 2013, though I appreciate the more mature perspective that time affords. Living very frugally works great in your 20s, in your 30s and above it's worth recognizing that spending money often solves problems that are worth solving.

[ender]

The guy carefully amassed a fortune, needs a car, and bought a vehicle that will cost about as much as a base model Camry over the life of the car. I think we can cut him a break.

I still greatly appreciate MMM circa 2013, though I appreciate the more mature perspective that time affords. Living very frugally works great in your 20s, in your 30s and above it's worth recognizing that spending money often solves problems that are worth solving.

While I don't disagree with your comments here, MMM in 2013 would absolutely disagree with them.

[MrGreen]

I think the arc of the MMM "story" is what will inevitably happen to most of us. Those of us seeking FIRE are statistically likely to oversave because of course we would. No one wants to run their portfolio to zero. At some point you reach the point of realizing that your stash has grown well beyond your means to spend, and that you're even older now which means it's even more inconceivable that you could spend it.

Personally, I find myself in this same boat. Short of the next stretch of years being the worst the US has ever experienced, financially, we've won the game. Period. Full stop. And I too sometimes find myself needing to make a purchase where I am unable to optimize the cost and mentally debate the alternatives with myself. And I too sometimes realize that in my now current position it isn't worth altering or missing out on whatever experience it is I would have had for the sake of optimization alone.

Would I buy a Tesla? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't something else out there that might be an equivalent scenario I'd break my frugality for.

To assume a person would live the entire arc of their life with unchanging frugality rules is to discount the perspective that most of us will end up facing when we have amassed a "too big" stash. On the one hand, I find MMM's recent blog posts to be detrimental to his brand circa 2013. On the other hand I can appreciate that rather than simply ending the blog, which is what he would have to do, he is showing the very real side of what comes after. I appreciate it because I know that it's a reality that many people will go through when they reach that point and I also hope that they don't choose to forgo whatever bread they had planned for a special breakfast with friends the next morning over an inefficiency in price. It is absolutely a more privileged position to be in, but it's still reality nonetheless.

I suppose someone could make the argument that this is a slippery slope to truly obscene spending, whatever that would be from each of our perspectives. I would simply say that it has to go somewhere. The man is clearly charitable. He's given away a whole helluva lot more money than I have so far. Would we really begrudge the person who gave away millions during their lifetime, but one less million than the next guy because he chose to spend that one on his own happiness?

You can't take it with you. Earlier today that meant instead of spending a couple hours fashioning a barbell hanger for our garage out of scrap wood I surely have laying around and am capable of making, I spent $20 on a steel one from Amazon because I just wanted to hang it and be done with it rather than fuss over it. Current me is just fine with that. 2013 me would have made the wooden one. And that's okay.

[Freedomin5]

It sounds like he’s moved from the accumulation stage to the decumulation stage and is starting to challenge what some of the forumites here call their “Inner Bag Lady”.

[314159]

It's a bit of a tough situation for the blog. MMM has earned something like millions of dollars from the blog, right? And the blog was started after he had already retired. What else is he supposed to do with his money? The obvious answer is donate it, but I must admit he's already donated several hundred thousand. I hope he continues to do so, but he can certainly spend his money how he likes.

The unfortunate part is that people reading the blog for the first time need to be told not to buy clown cars! MMM has written extensively on how to reduce car use and buy inexpensive used cars, but now people coming to the homepage will see this bit about the Tesla instead.

I did reread the article Our shared ongoing battle to not buy a Tesla to see how this battle was finally lost. He has been anticipating this purchase for at least 4 years, and the points that he raises in to procrastinate on his purchase have all been resolved now. He has a destination to drive to; I'm going to assume he built the deck/carport combo he planned to build; he's not planning to drive cross-country at a go (and besides, he can afford the additional expense vs air travel); and he did rent some extensively. He did a good job procrastinating!
_________________

I appreciated the bit about the Minimum Spending Budget/Dedicated Money Wasting Account. I myself do not have such an account, though I've considered using one and may do so in the future. I think it is a useful tool to have in the toolbox. The MMM philosophy is that you can greatly reduce your spending without hurting (in fact perhaps helping) your quality of life. Nevertheless sometimes here or on reddit I read of people who are saving so hard that they go past the peak and do hurt their quality of life. They live with roommates they hate or stay in a job they hate or never spend time with friends or work too many hours, because they want to save save save. These people might benefit from a minimum spending budget.

Then there are the people who are saving hard and are content but would just like to relax a little. Good option for them too.
__________________

This whole situation reminds me a lot of Should you reverse any advice you hear? Two pieces of exactly opposing advice can each benefit different groups of people. However, people are more likely to hear advice that they have already heard and hence don't need to hear. In this case, "you should stop spending all your money on your clown car or your Dave's bread or your Vitamix, save it instead" vs. "you're saving too much money, set some aside to have fun with".

[LD_TAndK]

I don't see any issue with buying an expensive electric vehicle that he can afford, if it fits his needs. He probably should have done this far sooner, because I think you have a duty to stop burning fossil fuels if you can afford to.

His approach seems backwards though. If you realize you have too much money you should allow yourself more spending on what you find valuable.

You shouldn't decide you need to spend $X then find the valuable things to spend on. You shouldn't have an account of money you're forced to waste. This seems like thinly veiled treat yo' self consumerism.

[DarkandStormy]

I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.

Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(

Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.

[GilesMM]

Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it.    It sounds like he wants it for dating as well - to show off his fancy whip to girls which he is apparently taking out to fancy restaurants when not jetting around first class.  Why?


My spouse still insists we clip digital coupons at Safeway, especially as inflation pushes prices up.  We may buy an electric vehicle one day (never a Tesla!) after driving our existing cars into the ground.  We withdraw 2-3% but I'm not bothered by this in the least.  We may decide to relocate and re-allocate the stash into more housing in a VHCOL area for quality of life which could put us closer to 4% with the remaining invested.

[MrGreen]

I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.

Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(

Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.

Is he? Can we tell who is actually paying for it with all the people Musk has given it away to?

[former player]

It all sounds very reasonable except that there is a complete absence of considering the environmental costs of consumerism - some of this "luxury" spending has little or no additional environmental cost but some of it has a lot.  Plus of course more of us have the room for this luxury spending than the planet can afford, there's nothing that answers that problem.

[Dictionary Time]

Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it.

I admit that I don’t know the math on the ecology of this car purchase.

But MMM wasn’t supposed to be about the money. Accumulating money was a side effect of living responsibly and not trashing the planet.

If he wants to buy expensive bread — whatever. You have to eat, who cares what the bread costs at this point in his life. He actually has the freedom to buy a better bread.

What stuck in my craw was not taking the train to the airport because it takes an hour! An hour! So he and his buddies have enough money to take an Uber. What about the big picture? What about the emissions and the congestion and the reduced train usage? Because you can’t sit in peace for an hour?

I think this came up in other recent blogs, where flying first class was perfectly rational for him as a rich dude. Maybe financially since he has money to burn. But he used to pretend to care about the planet.

So I wonder about the stereotypes of rich people and their selfish behavior. I always figured selfishness was the cause and wealth was the effect. Watching MMM progress here I do wonder if there is more to it.

[MrGreen]

You shouldn't decide you need to spend $X then find the valuable things to spend on. You shouldn't have an account of money you're forced to waste. This seems like thinly veiled treat yo' self consumerism.

Ironically, this is how it's going to happen for us in practice. I do extensive modeling of our financial situation, planned spending over our lifetime with an emphasis on maximizing long term taxation efficiency and access to our money. The most optimum way for us to handle that now that we're FIRE with "too much" is to plan to spend a certain amount each year. I get into this pretty extensively in my Dying With Zero journal. Whether we actually spend all that money or if we donate whatever we just don't feel the need to spend is irrelevant to what the model proposes. If we don't spend it down, we end up with multiple six-fogure RMDs when we're older. We're definitely giving a bunch of money away then if we couldnt figure out out to loosen the purse strings a little when we were younger.

We're still early enough in our FIRE journey that I don't know exactly what that looks like yet but we're already able to put brackets around the range of options. Right now we spend 45-55k per year depending on how adventurous we are. It's clear that under no circumstances should we spend less than 80k if we want to optimize taxation and access to our money over our lifetime. Extremely first world problem. We're already starting to think about what kind of charitable giving we'll do once our daughter is old enough for us to know she wont have any developmental delays that could require atypical financial support. In a few years we'll really be able to have some fun with it.

[DarkandStormy]

I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.

Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(

Even worse, he's paying for Twitter Blue like a loser.

Is he? Can we tell who is actually paying for it with all the people Musk has given it away to?

He has well under 1m followers, so yes. Even the MadFientist is paying for it.

[NaN]

Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it.

I admit that I don’t know the math on the ecology of this car purchase.

But MMM wasn’t supposed to be about the money. Accumulating money was a side effect of living responsibly and not trashing the planet.

If he wants to buy expensive bread — whatever. You have to eat, who cares what the bread costs at this point in his life. He actually has the freedom to buy a better bread.

What stuck in my craw was not taking the train to the airport because it takes an hour! An hour! So he and his buddies have enough money to take an Uber. What about the big picture? What about the emissions and the congestion and the reduced train usage? Because you can’t sit in peace for an hour?

I think this came up in other recent blogs, where flying first class was perfectly rational for him as a rich dude. Maybe financially since he has money to burn. But he used to pretend to care about the planet.

So I wonder about the stereotypes of rich people and their selfish behavior. I always figured selfishness was the cause and wealth was the effect. Watching MMM progress here I do wonder if there is more to it.

Yeah, exactly. I think when MMM first retired he was probably much more relatable to a lot of people in his audience. At the start he could scream 'badassity' ideas about taking a train that takes an extra hour vs an Uber. But I think he is in an entirely unique situation now where he is screaming ideas to the wrong audience. It is understandable - how could he expect gaining such fame and fortune from this effort? I do think he has changed because of the success of his blog. His original ideas are mostly good, but don't apply to him now, or have just a different impact on him than it does on most of his readers.

What I do think applies to everyone that he seems to gloss over with this most recent post is his idea about treating oneself. To me, it is really about the overall mental health of every person should take priority over even the most frugal badass habit. I think what he might be addressing is his own state specifically having spending deficits (budget surplus) for years while abiding, but maybe with increasing stress of more money to know what to do with, to some very frugal tendencies. Sounds like a challenging situation to spread his original ideas, and then find himself in a situation he never expected, and then tries to justify his behavior of some more spendy behavior. To be honest, if I retired tomorrow and started something that gave me more wealth than I knew what to do with then I think that situation would have a toll on me.

I think he could make the mental health challenges of people striving for FIRE a more forefront topic, and be more open about the situation he finds himself in.

[Telecaster]

I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?

[RetireOrDieTrying]

Personal growth is hard, and rife with learning opportunities. MMM is doing his growth in the public eye, warts and all (not calling this particular one a wart, just in general). It takes gumption to do that.

Some of y'all would never survive under the kind of scrutiny and cattiness you feel empowered to spray at him from a distance for making a decision different than you. Disagree if you wish, but when you stray into calling him a loser it says more about you than he. <shrug>

[Dicey]

I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?

Funny, but not even close.

[Dicey]

Personal growth is hard, and rife with learning opportunities. MMM is doing his growth in the public eye, warts and all (not calling this particular one a wart, just in general). It takes gumption to do that.

Some of y'all would never survive under the kind of scrutiny and cattiness you feel empowered to spray at him from a distance for making a decision different than you. Disagree if you wish, but when you stray into calling him a loser it says more about you than he. <shrug>

Anyone who has helped so many people achieve FI/RE on their own terms is anything but a loser. I suspect a lot of the snark is coming from people who are not yet FI.

[Morning Glory]

I think the arc of the MMM "story" is what will inevitably happen to most of us. Those of us seeking FIRE are statistically likely to oversave because of course we would. No one wants to run their portfolio to zero. At some point you reach the point of realizing that your stash has grown well beyond your means to spend, and that you're even older now which means it's even more inconceivable that you could spend it.

Personally, I find myself in this same boat. Short of the next stretch of years being the worst the US has ever experienced, financially, we've won the game. Period. Full stop. And I too sometimes find myself needing to make a purchase where I am unable to optimize the cost and mentally debate the alternatives with myself. And I too sometimes realize that in my now current position it isn't worth altering or missing out on whatever experience it is I would have had for the sake of optimization alone.

Would I buy a Tesla? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't something else out there that might be an equivalent scenario I'd break my frugality for.

To assume a person would live the entire arc of their life with unchanging frugality rules is to discount the perspective that most of us will end up facing when we have amassed a "too big" stash. On the one hand, I find MMM's recent blog posts to be detrimental to his brand circa 2013. On the other hand I can appreciate that rather than simply ending the blog, which is what he would have to do, he is showing the very real side of what comes after. I appreciate it because I know that it's a reality that many people will go through when they reach that point and I also hope that they don't choose to forgo whatever bread they had planned for a special breakfast with friends the next morning over an inefficiency in price. It is absolutely a more privileged position to be in, but it's still reality nonetheless.

I suppose someone could make the argument that this is a slippery slope to truly obscene spending, whatever that would be from each of our perspectives. I would simply say that it has to go somewhere. The man is clearly charitable. He's given away a whole helluva lot more money than I have so far. Would we really begrudge the person who gave away millions during their lifetime, but one less million than the next guy because he chose to spend that one on his own happiness?

You can't take it with you. Earlier today that meant instead of spending a couple hours fashioning a barbell hanger for our garage out of scrap wood I surely have laying around and am capable of making, I spent $20 on a steel one from Amazon because I just wanted to hang it and be done with it rather than fuss over it. Current me is just fine with that. 2013 me would have made the wooden one. And that's okay.

I wonder if he saw your post lol!!

I think there are a lot of mustachians who retired 4-5 years ago and fall into the "rich" side of rich, broke, or dead, and he provides pretty good advice for those in that group.  As a class of 21 person that article does not apply to me at this time and that's ok. He did not seem advocating for anyone to work longer and strive for that level of wealth, nor implying that it's necessary for happiness.

[FireLane]

The next time I have to buy a car, I want to buy an EV. But it definitely won't be a Tesla.

I'm sure there are some smart people working for Tesla who want to save the planet. It's not their fault they have an asshole for a boss. But Elon Musk has proven himself to be a flaming garbage pile of a person, and I don't want to support his unhinged behavior.

As for MMM, he can get whatever car he wants for himself. He can certainly afford it. He could probably buy a Tesla every year and not make a dent in his stash. I find it odd that complete strangers feel entitled to tell him how to spend his money.

But anyone who wanted to argue that this decision isn't consistent with the philosophy he espoused on his blog at the beginning... that wouldn't be wrong. And it does raise questions about how feasible it is to plan on living a lean-FIRE lifestyle forever.

I think I've said before that it would make more sense for him to divide his articles into "beginner Mustachianism", for people who are just getting started on their FIRE journey, and "advanced Mustachianism" like this post, for people like him who've won the game - who've been frugal investors for many years and now have more money than they could spend in their lifetimes.

I kind of agree that, if you're a multimillionaire who's been retired for many years, it doesn't make sense to agonize over a couple of extra dollars when buying a loaf of bread. But it's dangerous for young people who've just discovered FIRE to think that way. It would help to make it clearer which audience he's addressing.

[scantee]

I think MMM is engaging in consumerism for one of the main reasons anyone (including me) engages in it: he doesn’t know what else to do with himself. Over the past few years he’s seemed adrift. Divorce, looking for a relationship, his kid reaching adulthood, blog on autopilot, moving to a new state potentially, etc. It seems like he is entering a new life stage and just kind of doesn’t know what to do now, doesn’t know how to spend his time.

I think this is a very common struggle for people and many fill that time with buying stuff and experiences! Car, house, and travel purchases can take up a lot of brain space which has the benefit of making people feel busy and it can be used as a way to avoid more uncomfortable self-examination. That’s why many people will go from big purchase to big purchase for their entire lives. It’s a way of avoiding ‘touching the void.’

Anyway, it would be interesting and I think useful to others for him to do some self-examination in this regard. As it is this post is a bit silly. But we’re all silly at moments, so.

[Villanelle]

I don't think there's anything wrong with MMM  buying a Tesla--not that he needs my approval.

But I find it funny that he's making choices now that he can and did judge harshly in the past, and he hasn't addressed that, as far as I can tell.  If you run around publicly and loudly calling people basically idiots for doing X and then you later do X, you sort of look like a hypocrite.  (Yes, I know it was at least partly a schtick, but he said it none the less.) I think a blog post acknowledging that perspectives change, and talking about his rationale would go a long way.  Maybe retroactively give people the grace he couldn't muster back then, but that he now offers himself.  As far as I can tell, he hasn't done that anywhere.  To me, it makes him look like a hypocrite.  His brand was made calling this behavior "consumer sucka-ism" and offering virtual face punches for choices just like this one. Nothing wrong with growing and learning and changing, but to just sort of pretend nothing has changed and hope no one notices, or something like that, is somewhat laughable to me.  IMO, he looks like an idiot.  Not because he bought a Tesla, but because he went against so many of the things he said definitely and repeatedly, and hasn't acknowledged any of that.  He doesn't owe anyone that, but people are going to form and have opinions.

[Travis]

I recall seeing a few bets on here about how long it would be until MMM bought a Tesla.

Saving the world by buying a luxury car from a despicable billionaire… Mr. Money Mustache has officially jumped the shark :(

Edit: I feel compelled to clarify that my issue is not with the dollar amount (sure, he can afford it), but with supporting and promoting Tesla in particular (because Musk, obviously). The richer you are, the MORE conscious you can afford to be about your spending. Comparing features is for early stage Mustachians. Late stage Mustachians should be focused on making the world better first.

He made a post about five years ago predicting he'd buy one this year, but he'd be buying used.

[iris lily]

I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?

Funny, but not even close.

I listened to a Ramit Seti podcast yesterday about a youngish couple who had $200,000 in the bank and maybe some 401(k)s, I can’t remember. In my book, they didn’t have a whole lot of money. Ramit was urging them to go take their wildly imagined big vacations, I mean expensive ones. Wow.

The man in the couple gets laid off regularly.

The woman in the couple said she wouldn’t feel comfortable going on this wild ass vacation of many months until they had about $1 million in the bank.

I agree with her.


 

[Metalcat]

There are two issues here:

There's Pete buying a car he's wanted for years and there's MMM writing an article justifying consumerism.

Pete buying a car is Pete's business, he's got way more money than he could ever need and as we all know, he was wanted this for a very long time.

On the other hand, MMM, kind of facepunches and ridicule for this *exact thing* writing an article justifying consumerism is...a choice, one that is guaranteed to trigger backlash and accusations of hypocrisy.

Because it is hypocritical. People are allowed to change their minds, they are allowed to be hypocritical. That's fine, that's normal human behaviour. But when you create a persona with a very vocal agenda, normal human hypocrisy is a complex thing to try and justify within the paradigm of that agenda.

I think there's A LOT of value in discussing what the hell to do with the excess gobs of money that a lot of people in this community will end up with.

I would LOVE to see a series of articles exploring the complex relationship to large wealth when your wealth came from espousing frugality and promoting how little wealth one actually needs to live an optimal life.

I would really like to see more depth.

I'm absolutely going to end up with way more money than I need, and I would appreciate some more genuine exploration of what that will really mean to me. Mr. Green has engaged in some deep thoughts on this, as have other forum members.

There is a demand for this discourse, but it's going to have to come from a more humble perspective in order to resonate. Not so much a "hey, I did a thing and here's why it's good" and more of a "here's why I've been conflicted and here's how I feel about it and why it now feels right but before it didn't."

Pete can do whatever he wants. He doesn't need MMM to be a voice that pleases people. At the end of the day he can share whatever he wants and frame his experiences and choices however he sees fit. He's beyond FI, MMM can be whatever the hell Pete wants him to be.

That doesn't mean people won't have opinions about it.

[ender]

I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?

Funny, but not even close.

As someone who has read tons of content by both, they are far more similar than appears.

Both have pretty much the exact same goal, the only difference is their mechanisms are changed. Ramit is basically the SWAMI end game. But focused on getting you to the SWAMI point.

[Chris Pascale]

Meh, he replaced his van after 24 years with an equally nice vehicle that costs what another van would.

My wife inquired a few years back if I want a Tesla or Range Rover, but our 2010 van is still hanging in there. I do think that around summertime she'll be getting a vehicle (we share the van currently). She's got her eye on the Subaru Forrester - good for taking the dog around and camping. When the van goes, I perhaps I'll have some grand kids to think about. If so, it'll probably be a 2-year-old van. Maybe it'll just be mine. Maybe it'll go wherever those kiddos go - like when they summer at our house, we have a van, but when it's the school year, my wife and I are sharing the not-yet-purchased Subaru.

[curious_george]

I feel like I have permission from my finance guy to go buy a Tesla now...

and a few other things to go with it.

(j/k)

[Cassie]

People change over time and Pete is no different than many others. His original message still has value.

[Alternatepriorities]

Funny story... A couple of years ago a fellow alaskan mustachian and I met up while he was in my town. We were both a little embarrassed by how nice our respective vehicles were. He was actually driving a Tesla, turns out neither of us really felt the need to judge the other. He gave me a ride, it was a very impressive car.

I think the arc of the MMM "story" is what will inevitably happen to most of us. Those of us seeking FIRE are statistically likely to oversave because of course we would. No one wants to run their portfolio to zero. At some point you reach the point of realizing that your stash has grown well beyond your means to spend, and that you're even older now which means it's even more inconceivable that you could spend it.

Personally, I find myself in this same boat. Short of the next stretch of years being the worst the US has ever experienced, financially, we've won the game. Period. Full stop. And I too sometimes find myself needing to make a purchase where I am unable to optimize the cost and mentally debate the alternatives with myself. And I too sometimes realize that in my now current position it isn't worth altering or missing out on whatever experience it is I would have had for the sake of optimization alone.

Would I buy a Tesla? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't something else out there that might be an equivalent scenario I'd break my frugality for.

To assume a person would live the entire arc of their life with unchanging frugality rules is to discount the perspective that most of us will end up facing when we have amassed a "too big" stash. On the one hand, I find MMM's recent blog posts to be detrimental to his brand circa 2013. On the other hand I can appreciate that rather than simply ending the blog, which is what he would have to do, he is showing the very real side of what comes after. I appreciate it because I know that it's a reality that many people will go through when they reach that point and I also hope that they don't choose to forgo whatever bread they had planned for a special breakfast with friends the next morning over an inefficiency in price. It is absolutely a more privileged position to be in, but it's still reality nonetheless.

I suppose someone could make the argument that this is a slippery slope to truly obscene spending, whatever that would be from each of our perspectives. I would simply say that it has to go somewhere. The man is clearly charitable. He's given away a whole helluva lot more money than I have so far. Would we really begrudge the person who gave away millions during their lifetime, but one less million than the next guy because he chose to spend that one on his own happiness?

You can't take it with you. Earlier today that meant instead of spending a couple hours fashioning a barbell hanger for our garage out of scrap wood I surely have laying around and am capable of making, I spent $20 on a steel one from Amazon because I just wanted to hang it and be done with it rather than fuss over it. Current me is just fine with that. 2013 me would have made the wooden one. And that's okay.

I think of all the comments this best matches where I'm at. I commented on another thread recently how our wealth is up something like 14 fold since I started reading the blog and later joined this forum. We are FI and I am RE and now a stay at home dad, but DW still like her work and we're still saving money on just the one income... It's no longer financially a problem to buy a Tesla... I think I'll hold out a bit longer, but eventually our 08 Honda fit (not the vehicle above) will die...

A couple years ago I spent more than an hour standing in front of a shelves in Lowes calculating the Cost/Benefit of getting LED Christmas lights... I nearly didn't buy them because they were 3x the price and given the hours of use I wasn't sure how many years it would take to break even... Were talking like three stings of lights this was not worth more an hour of my life! I've had exactly the same thought as MMM when it comes to Dave's bread too. Usually I'm in some smaller town and the bread is twice the price of Costco. In 2013 MMM and I would both have made a "Millionaire skips toast and saves 15 cents" post. The struggle is real.

I'm not going to adopt a minimum spend budget for a while longer though. We'll give more generously while DW is working and see where things land when she decides she is done. I want to keep our spending (including giving) at a sustainable level so we don't ever need to pinch pennies the way we did in 2013 again.

[Dicey]

I wonder if MMM has been kidnapped and replaced by Ramit Seti?

Funny, but not even close.

As someone who has read tons of content by both, they are far more similar than appears.

Both have pretty much the exact same goal, the only difference is their mechanisms are changed. Ramit is basically the SWAMI end game. But focused on getting you to the SWAMI point.

Frankly, aiming to be "rich" kind of squicks me out. My goal has always been to be financially secure. I see that as a huge difference. I had cancer when I was young and never wanted to be vulnerable if it happened again. It has, and I am reveling in the security I feel.

[Treedream]

I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.

What is debatable is how this relates to Pete's previously professed belief that frugality is a virtue, because it has the potential to save the planet and allows you to make choices. So how does it relate to that? he clearly has the choice now to buy a Tesla, cause he has the money and all the other things required to have a car. Will it save the planet more than a second hand gas car? The jury is probably out on that one. I certainly wouldn't know how to compare them.


I also agree with Malcat, there is value in the discussion on what to do with accumulated wealth once you are there. Its totally different from being in accumulation. One part I have seen on this forum is the struggle to let go on the cramped hold on the wallet, that doesn't produce joy, or happiness. That doesn't mean to let go of any reigns and I don't think anybody is suggesting that. So now you have it all, what choices do you make and on the basis of which values? Is the frugal framework linked to sustainability a race to the bottom? I don't think that is the right approach.

[obstinate]

I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.

Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.

And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.

[Metalcat]

I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.

Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.

And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.

I think a lot of those replies were jokes.

[curious_george]

I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.

Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.

And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.

I think a lot of those replies were jokes.

Yeah - I was definitely joking.

I guess I need to start adding a (j/k) flag to my joke posts...

Or I need to start telling funnier jokes.

[Treedream]

I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.

Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.

And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.

I have trouble assessing your tone. Do you mean me when you say 'you' in the bit above? Cause if so, thats needlessly rude and non sequitur.

Also, is a person not allowed to change their mind? Pete wrote lots of things 10 years ago when his life and circumstances were different. I have said lots of stuff only last year that I no longer agree with. Since when is that weakness?

[obstinate]

I don't understand what is the problem with Pete buying a Tesla. For all those people saying: So that means I can buy a Tesla/fancy car too? It depends totally on your position in life. To compare Pete in his current situation to anyone in the accumulation phase is nonsense. Its not comparible.

Even in a lot of his original clown car blog posts he would talk about how you should not buy one unless you have millions of dollars in the bank. Which, he does.

And if someone does feel like this gave them permission, well that's between them and their future selves. If you're not in the same economic position as Pete it might not work out so well for you, but feel free to be an idiot if you need to do so to prove some kind of internet argument.

I have trouble assessing your tone. Do you mean me when you say 'you' in the bit above? Cause if so, thats needlessly rude and non sequitur.

No, never. I'm agreeing with you. I'm talking about the hypothetical "person who would buy an expensive car they can't afford just because Pete did" that some folks are wringing their hands about.

[theninthwall]

To me, Pete has obviously made himself enough money to retire several times over. He is at the stage where he can purchase things that don’t align with the frugality needed to originally reach the goal. That doesn’t change his advice on getting to the goal initially.

Let’s say, for example, his blog was about how to stop house fires and we all read the blog because our houses are on fire. Some of us are pouring buckets of water on to the fire, some of us are just letting the fire get worse. Some of us have the hose at full power but we're watering the garden. Pete says, "Hey, use this hose and it will put the fire out!"

Now, he put his own house fire out years ago. His house is not on fire. So Pete decided to use the hose to water his garden. For those of us whose houses are still on fire, his advice to point the hose at the house still makes sense, even if it no longer applies to his situation. It makes no sense for people whose house is on fire to say, "Well, why do YOU get to water the garden?"

Maybe not the best analogy...but that's my feelings on the matter.

[obstinate]

I think a lot of those replies were jokes.

There are definitely people who not-jokingly believe that Pete has devalued his earlier advice by not following it with this car purchase. Which IMO entitles them to a full refund and not much else. I think there's still a lot to get out of the advice, personally.

[Morning Glory]

I think a lot of those replies were jokes.

There are definitely people who not-jokingly believe that Pete has devalued his earlier advice by not following it with this car purchase. Which IMO entitles them to a full refund and not much else. I think there's still a lot to get out of the advice, personally.

My guess is that he would have gotten even more flack if he'd tried to keep it to himself instead of posting about it.

[lhamo]

Am I the only one who came away from that post not caring much about the car but wanting ot know more about the recreational property purchase?  And whether they are going to rent out any of the space?

[GilesMM]

The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.

[Dicey]

I think a lot of those replies were jokes.

There are definitely people who not-jokingly believe that Pete has devalued his earlier advice by not following it with this car purchase. Which IMO entitles them to a full refund and not much else. I think there's still a lot to get out of the advice, personally.

Totally agree.

Am I the only one who came away from that post not caring much about the car but wanting ot know more about the recreational property purchase?  And whether they are going to rent out any of the space?

I'm curious, too.

The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.

^This^

[MrGreen]

The real lesson from MMM, which not many seem to glean, is to quit your terrible worker-bee job, follow your passion into a business, build it to 6-7 figure annual cash flow, then live however you want.

It's beyond my comprehension what we'd have done if we'd saved what we did but then built an ongoing six-figure income from passion work afterward. I guess I'd be doing what he's doing. You get to a point where the money has to go somewhere. Co-working space. Recreational property. All of those things allow him to help benefit others while also benefiting himself, which is a best case scenario in my book. Creating your own happiness while making others happy is always a win. And the guy has donated half a million dollars to charity! It's a damn fine start. If everyone who suddenly found themselves wealthier than they expected followed that example I imagine this world would be an exponentially better place.

@lhamo I'm wondering about the recreational property too! We spent time in Salida two years ago and will be again this summer. It's a lovely spot.

[ender]

Frankly, aiming to be "rich" kind of squicks me out. My goal has always been to be financially secure. I see that as a huge difference. I had cancer when I was young and never wanted to be vulnerable if it happened again. It has, and I am reveling in the security I feel.

Rich in the sense of fulfillment, moreso than monetarily.

Both are all about using money as a tool to achieve your "rich" life. Just different mechanisms to get there for Ramit vs MMM. Dramatically different, really.

[zolotiyeruki]

Mustachianism isn't about being frugal.  Mustachianism is about optimizing for happiness.  Frugality can be a part of that for many people, but isn't universally applicable.

Most of the earlier MMM posts are targeted at an audience in the accumulation phase, who have little to no retirement savings, who are spending money unwisely, and who are unhappy at least in part because of that unwise spending (racking up debt, lots of monthly payments, living paycheck to paycheck, etc).  For people in that situation, the "get a used minivan, quit the starbucks habit, and shop at Aldi" advice is probably right, since doing so will reduce stress from feeling financially strapped, tied to a job, and feeling like they're going nowhere.

But that core tenet of optimizing for happiness means that for someone in MMM's position (retired early, no debt that can't be easily paid off, mindful spending), the advice can be exactly the opposite. Yes, you can buy the Tesla, the Starbucks, *and* the Trader Joe's bread, if that's what makes you happy. Because doing so won't bring on the negative consequences that people in the first group are dealing with.

EDIT: a couple proofreading errors

[joemandadman189]

Mustachianism isn't about being frugal.  Mustachianism is about optimizing for happiness.  Frugality can be a part of that for many people, but isn't universally applicable.

Most of the earlier MMM posts are targeted at an audience in the accumulation phase, who have little to no retirement savings, who are spending money unwisely, and who are unhappy at least in part because of that unwise spending (racking up debt, lots of monthly payments, living paycheck to paycheck, etc).  For people in that situation, "get a used minivan, quit the starbucks habit, and shop at Aldi" advice is probably right, since doing so will reduce stress from feeling financially strapped, tied to a job, and feeling like they're going nowhere.

But that core tenet of optimizing for happiness means that someone in MMM's position (retired early, no debt that can't be easily paid off, mindful spending), the advice can be exactly the opposite. Yes, you can buy the Tesla, the Starbucks, *and* the Trader Joe's bread, if that's what makes you happy. Because doing so won't bring on the negative consequences that people in the first group are dealing with.

Completely agree

Its amazing how so many comments on the blog post and here are negative. He isn't in the accumulation phase anymore, he has more than enough money. Let the man enjoy it. He is buying an electric car, no more fossil fuels - living his environmentalism best life, from the most respected and advanced EV brand. The eccentricities of the CEO are what made the company survive when it probably should have failed.

Buying a brand new (electric) luxury vehicle is one of the worst things MMM could do for the environment. He has given in to hedonism, defying a decade of his own frugal advice columns, and is trying to talk his way around it.    It sounds like he wants it for dating as well - to show off his fancy whip to girls which he is apparently taking out to fancy restaurants when not jetting around first class.  Why?


My spouse still insists we clip digital coupons at Safeway, especially as inflation pushes prices up.  We may buy an electric vehicle one day (never a Tesla!) after driving our existing cars into the ground.  We withdraw 2-3% but I'm not bothered by this in the least.  We may decide to relocate and re-allocate the stash into more housing in a VHCOL area for quality of life which could put us closer to 4% with the remaining invested.

MMM doesn't have to be frugal any more and neither do you. He still preaches frugality for those in the accumulation phase. Let the man grow.

"What got you there, won't get you here"