The beatles Case Study

[Zoot]

Wife did weekly shopping today.

$13!

We only needed "essentials" as we've been eating all the stuff that has been accumulating in our pantry and freezer.

Awesome work!  In the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, you have taken your first step into a larger world.  :)

With the grocery stuff, the first step is the hardest--changing ingrained patters of "what we eat for breakfast" or "what we feed the kids" is tough.  You and the wife are doing GREAT!

I'm going through something like this in my world right now:  DH and I just started a diet together, so our eating patterns are changing.  Soup and salad for dinner, excising alcohol, giving up pizza night (homemade, of course, including the crust!) on Fridays.

But so far DH has lost 8 pounds and I've lost 5 (curse his younger, male metabolism!), and it's so, so, SO worth it.  Every time I button up my now much-better-fitting jeans, I smile.  DH's blood work numbers are improving, even after just a couple of weeks.  Recalling the progress we've made helps when I'm in a situation where I could stray from my program--it helps me to say "no" when presented with temptation.

Keep going!  You can DO this! 

[swick]

YES!!!!! WAY TO GO MRS. BEATLES!!! :D :D :D :D

[PharmaStache]

Is that a huge container of applesauce I spy?  Good job!

[The beatles]

Ok, ok, ok...

She is mad that I didn't include the fact that she returned cans for $3 so it was actually only $10.

Gotta include that, apparently lol.

[FrugalFan]

Awesome progress! So excited to see you still here and striving for change! And to see your wife embracing change too. Amazing!

[Physicsteacher]

Nicely done on the groceries and reaching out to a CPA for advice on your tax mess! What do you plan to tackle next?

[meandmyfamily]

Wow!  Great job!

[swick]

Ok, ok, ok...

She is mad that I didn't include the fact that she returned cans for $3 so it was actually only $10.

Gotta include that, apparently lol.

She can have that win :) Although, won't be able to happen too many more times, no more sugary beverages, right? :) But eating from the pantry and a 13 10 shopping trip is GREAT!

[Anagnorisis]

Just stepping out of the lurk to say "F**k Yeah Beatles!!".  This thread has been great.  Hope you stick around.

[1967mama]

You guys are doing AH-MAZING!!! Well done! Keep pulling stuff out of that freezer and pantry to keep the bills down!

[Quidnon?]

I like the term, "Money Hippies".

[The beatles]

Wow, i missed about 5 pages worth of drama!

I agree with Marty, this thread is an MMM forum classic, and deserve a sticky. If it doesn't, we definitely should compile the grocery advice mentioned here and post it separately (with a sticky).

Be gentle with op, he has been through a lot in the past few days and accomplished a lot. Facing his situation must have been hard. Making these difficult decisions is hard. Plus i imagine there is also a domestic storm going on with the wife in the background. Whatever you do, whoever racked up the debt, move on. Come up with a plan you are both comfortable with and as we told you, you can dig out of this hole by the end of the year.

We have been carrying on about the outrageous grocery spending, the parents and the IRS debt too long. There is enough information about them. Let them rest.

Let's move on to the other problem areas. OP, as others pointed out, there are several items missing from your budget and we suspect they go straight to your credit cards (@ 23%). Do you want to discuss these? Can we help you with these?

Missing budget items in my view. Kids toys (motorized vehicle? Wtf). Clothes. Haircuts. If you had a massage line in your budget, i suspect there are expensive haircuts, manicures and facials as well. Gym? Healthcare? Kids activities( wife is away all day doing activities. What sort ). Babysitting. Holidays. Christmas and birthdays. Gifts. These have to be planned and budgeted for or else you will find yourself in an even deeper hole. It is better to know that you can spend 100 dollars on the kids clothes than going crazy at the clearance racks. People will jump in about thrift stores, and about kids needing only empty boxes to play with, ignore them if you wish, but you need to understand how much you can realistically spend.

I know several people like Beatles.They are very real. I wish i could help them personally, but of course you don't preach to your friends about money. I almost fainted last year, when a friend told me that they finally managed to refinance their loans to save 7k a month in interest. They looked very successful, waterfront house, the investment properties, the suv, the convertible, the boat, the sahm, and it turns out they are living large on borrowed money and having health problems due to all the associated stress.she picked up a daily cleaning job to help them stay afloat, it was that bad. Imagine her rocking up in a 70k car payment to scrub someone's toilet for 5o dollars. 😢

Hmm.

I didn't really think about those small things.

Kids get a haircut once a year. Wife probbaly twice.

No facials or manicures but a pedicure probably once per year.

Honestly, most of the kids toys (including the Jeep) are gifts from the grandparents.

No babysitter.

Gotta add clothing and birthday/Christmas gifts though.

[The beatles]

I like the term, "Money Hippies".

I thought it described you all very well.

My uncle used to say "I don't want to be part of any club that'll accept someone like me as a member."

Oh well, minion money hippies is a club I'd like to be part of.

[Laura33]

GO MRS. BEATLES!!!!!

Best news I've heard all day!  :-)

[YoungGranny]

Super proud of the Beatles today! You and wife are doing great!!! And see, I wasn't lying when I said as soon as you started making changes everyone would be applauding you. We may be money hippies but you're joining our commune :)

[Tick-Tock]

Really enjoyed your blog and so glad you and Mrs. Beatles are working together making changes. Your future selves are going to be SO thankful to you!

[RetiredAt63]

So great.  You guys are rocking it.

[LadyStache in Baja]

YAY MRS BEATLES!!!!

[dreamer8887]

Posting to follow, if you don't mind. I am so impressed you stuck around. Hopefully this forum will be a good accountability tool for you and your wife.

[The beatles]

What's the formula for net worth?

I'm assuming ours would be in the negatives, but what would it be?

[MDM]

What's the formula for net worth?

I'm assuming ours would be in the negatives, but what would it be?

Check http://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-to-calculate-your-net-worth/.

If that doesn't make sense, try googling "net worth" for other explanations.

[QueenV]

Hi Beatles! I've been reading this thread for the last two days, trying desperately to catch up before I posted! Whew, here I am! It's been a wild ride so kudos to you for sticking with it. Your blog post is great and it sounds like the advice here is starting to sink in. The good news is that your situation can be turned around! Like others have said, it's all about baby steps. Pick one thing and do it, then move on to another, and on and on and pretty soon you'll look back and be amazed at how far you've come. You and your family have got this!

[marty998]

What's the formula for net worth?

I'm assuming ours would be in the negatives, but what would it be?

Add up every financial asset you have (cash, investments, property, retirement accounts) and deduct everything you owe (all debts).

"Things" and depreciating assets (cars, furniture) do not count in the asset total, but the associated debts do  ;)

[former player]

Congratulations, Beatles and Mrs Beatles.  Mrs Beatles' shop was huge (in the best possible way).  Go Team!

[Trifle]

Mr. and Mrs. Beatles -- you ROCK!  Love the blog.  Congratulations on the CPA conversation (can't wait to hear more about it, if you will share) and the shopping trip.  Huge, huge wins.   

[anotherAlias]

Wow, i missed about 5 pages worth of drama!

I agree with Marty, this thread is an MMM forum classic, and deserve a sticky. If it doesn't, we definitely should compile the grocery advice mentioned here and post it separately (with a sticky).

Be gentle with op, he has been through a lot in the past few days and accomplished a lot. Facing his situation must have been hard. Making these difficult decisions is hard. Plus i imagine there is also a domestic storm going on with the wife in the background. Whatever you do, whoever racked up the debt, move on. Come up with a plan you are both comfortable with and as we told you, you can dig out of this hole by the end of the year.

We have been carrying on about the outrageous grocery spending, the parents and the IRS debt too long. There is enough information about them. Let them rest.

Let's move on to the other problem areas. OP, as others pointed out, there are several items missing from your budget and we suspect they go straight to your credit cards (@ 23%). Do you want to discuss these? Can we help you with these?

Missing budget items in my view. Kids toys (motorized vehicle? Wtf). Clothes. Haircuts. If you had a massage line in your budget, i suspect there are expensive haircuts, manicures and facials as well. Gym? Healthcare? Kids activities( wife is away all day doing activities. What sort ). Babysitting. Holidays. Christmas and birthdays. Gifts. These have to be planned and budgeted for or else you will find yourself in an even deeper hole. It is better to know that you can spend 100 dollars on the kids clothes than going crazy at the clearance racks. People will jump in about thrift stores, and about kids needing only empty boxes to play with, ignore them if you wish, but you need to understand how much you can realistically spend.

I know several people like Beatles.They are very real. I wish i could help them personally, but of course you don't preach to your friends about money. I almost fainted last year, when a friend told me that they finally managed to refinance their loans to save 7k a month in interest. They looked very successful, waterfront house, the investment properties, the suv, the convertible, the boat, the sahm, and it turns out they are living large on borrowed money and having health problems due to all the associated stress.she picked up a daily cleaning job to help them stay afloat, it was that bad. Imagine her rocking up in a 70k car payment to scrub someone's toilet for 5o dollars. 😢

Hmm.

I didn't really think about those small things.

Kids get a haircut once a year. Wife probbaly twice.

No facials or manicures but a pedicure probably once per year.

Honestly, most of the kids toys (including the Jeep) are gifts from the grandparents.

No babysitter.

Gotta add clothing and birthday/Christmas gifts though.

One thing to remember with budgeting is that it usually takes about a year to get one setup because there is always little stuff that you forget about that first year that needs to get added.  Just don't get discouraged when that stuff pops up.  Assess whether it's still an expense you want to pay for and if it is, add it to the budget going forward.  Actually, budgets are never really set in stone because they have to change as your life circumstances change but after the first year they change a lot less frequently.

[katscratch]

I haven't used Mint or Personal Capital, so I can't compare them, but I really like You Need a Budget for my budgeting.  It still took me 9-12 months to really figure out how to set it up so it works best for me and how I budget now, but even just setting it up in the template made a big difference to how I look at what I'm spending each month. 

www.youneedabudget.com

[Zoot]

Honestly, most of the kids toys (including the Jeep) are gifts from the grandparents.

Had a thought when I read this.

Maybe have a conversation with the grandparents to say something like "we so appreciate all the gifts for the kids, but they've got more toys than they can play with; what would you think of maybe getting them one small toy and then making a contribution to their college fund for birthdays and Christmas instead?"

That's not worded very well, but I have to be at "work" (that is, commute from my home computer to my work computer, as I'm working from home today!) in 3 minutes.  ;-)  But you get the idea--help break the cycle of gifting of consumer "crap" that will be broken or forgotten or considered clutter in a year's time, in favor of setting the kids up for success when they launch as adults.

[Zoot]

Honestly, most of the kids toys (including the Jeep) are gifts from the grandparents.

Had a thought when I read this.

Maybe have a conversation with the grandparents to say something like "we so appreciate all the gifts for the kids, but they've got more toys than they can play with; what would you think of maybe getting them one small toy and then making a contribution to their college fund for birthdays and Christmas instead?"

That's not worded very well, but I have to be at "work" (that is, commute from my home computer to my work computer, as I'm working from home today!) in 3 minutes.  ;-)  But you get the idea--help break the cycle of gifting of consumer "crap" that will be broken or forgotten or considered clutter in a year's time, in favor of setting the kids up for success when they launch as adults.

One more idea while my computer is booting.  :)

Set up an Amazon wish list for the kids with things they need--items of clothing, stuff for activities, stuff for school.  Encourage people giving gifts to your kids to check the wish list when buying.

[LadyStache in Baja]

I haven't used Mint or Personal Capital, so I can't compare them, but I really like You Need a Budget for my budgeting.  It still took me 9-12 months to really figure out how to set it up so it works best for me and how I budget now, but even just setting it up in the template made a big difference to how I look at what I'm spending each month. 

www.youneedabudget.com

Agree.  It's made me realize I have a lot less money than I think I do.  And when I want to spend new incoming money on something fun, I realize it's already allocated for practical stuff.

[Khaetra]

Honestly, most of the kids toys (including the Jeep) are gifts from the grandparents.

Had a thought when I read this.

Maybe have a conversation with the grandparents to say something like "we so appreciate all the gifts for the kids, but they've got more toys than they can play with; what would you think of maybe getting them one small toy and then making a contribution to their college fund for birthdays and Christmas instead?"

That's not worded very well, but I have to be at "work" (that is, commute from my home computer to my work computer, as I'm working from home today!) in 3 minutes.  ;-)  But you get the idea--help break the cycle of gifting of consumer "crap" that will be broken or forgotten or considered clutter in a year's time, in favor of setting the kids up for success when they launch as adults.

One more idea while my computer is booting.  :)

Set up an Amazon wish list for the kids with things they need--items of clothing, stuff for activities, stuff for school.  Encourage people giving gifts to your kids to check the wish list when buying.

Excellent idea!  Also, if you do gift-giving for the adults now is maybe the time to step back from doing that.  Take a look at how much you spent on all gifts this past Christmas season, not just for your kids, but for everyone you gave to.  Adds up quick doesn't it?  The time to have that conversation is now and be honest but kind when you do.  Suggest that instead of giving gifts you have a huge potluck dinner and that their company is better than any material gift.  My friends and I do this every year and it's always a big hit.

[begood]

Tell Mrs. Beatles that is excellent work! Love the big jar of applesauce!

Your blog post was great too. It might be the first time I could even peripherally be considered hippyish.

Have you discovered the Journals section here at the forum? It's a members-only area, and veers more toward support and reinforcement than face punches. You could start a journal, then copy over your blog post if you want a more interactive experience. You may not! You may just want a place to noodle on things. I'm just putting it out there.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/

[Jakejake]

Excellent idea!  Also, if you do gift-giving for the adults now is maybe the time to step back from doing that.  Take a look at how much you spent on all gifts this past Christmas season, not just for your kids, but for everyone you gave to.  Adds up quick doesn't it?  The time to have that conversation is now and be honest but kind when you do.  Suggest that instead of giving gifts you have a huge potluck dinner and that their company is better than any material gift.  My friends and I do this every year and it's always a big hit.

We just started doing that two years ago. 3 years ago, we got my parents their first ever amazon prime subscription (a service, not a "thing"). They loved it and have been reporting back with shows they binge watch. So last year I was going to renew it for them - but also for myself I wanted an instant pot, which was about the same price and I could pick it up at a walmart within biking distance. I called them and said "here's what I want to get you, and here's what I want ... but wouldn't it be so much easier if instead of me figuring out now how to add a year into your account on amazon, and you having to pay to ship something that's a mile away from me, we just each got these things for ourselves and considered it a "gift"?

That broke the ice, they were grateful they didn't have to actually deal with gift giving hassles. This year, we didn't even specify gifts - we just said "hey that worked out pretty well last year, can we skip the gift exchange this year too? This year my sister joined in as well. Her budget is tighter than ours, and she was glad not to have to buy stuff for my parents or me, which I imagine is frustrating to do when you're paying money you can't afford to buy things for people who don't want more crap in their house out of a sense of obligation.

[RetiredAt63]

We have everything here - Mini Mustache area for kids (well, parents of kids), the Tax section, the investment section, the DIY section, the challenge section, the boast section (Share Your Badassity) - you can stay on here forever.  ;-)

Also laughed at being a money hippie.

[Jakejake]

We have everything here - Mini Mustache area for kids (well, parents of kids), the Tax section, the investment section, the DIY section, the challenge section, the boast section (Share Your Badassity) - you can stay on here forever.  ;-)

And it's all here in one handy thread! We could probably do away with the rest of the forum now. :)

[RetiredAt63]

We have everything here - Mini Mustache area for kids (well, parents of kids), the Tax section, the investment section, the DIY section, the challenge section, the boast section (Share Your Badassity) - you can stay on here forever.  ;-)

And it's all here in one handy thread! We could probably do away with the rest of the forum now. :)

Well, all except the Journals and meetups.

[charis]

Congrats!  Glad you didn't bounce - it will be worth it.

[Malum Prohibitum]

Wife did weekly shopping today.

$13!

We only needed "essentials" as we've been eating all the stuff that has been accumulating in our pantry and freezer.

She is mad that I didn't include the fact that she returned cans for $3 so it was actually only $10.

Gotta include that, apparently lol.

Cool!

So, the beatles, on day 5, we have the following:

(1) Cut out $600 monthly lunches for employees

(2) Cut out $70 monthly massages

(3) Actually cutting groceries! (not yet sure $ amount)

(4) Talked to CPA about IRS solution.

(5) Good!  What is going to be number 5 for you?

Also, how are you tracking January's spending?  It does not have to be anything fancy.  I write mine down on a piece of paper.

Thur
Jan 12  $32.51 Gasoline
. . . . . .$10.00 Grocery

Like that on down the page.  Then it is a simple matter of adding up the categories (gas, grocery, car maintenance, clothing, alcohol, and so on) at the end of the month.  I do it weekly in addition to monthly to have a better idea of where we are going and see if a problem is developing (and also because it is easier than doing it all at the end of the month, which is a little daunting).

[Mmm_Donuts]

Congrats, Beatles. You say you can't live with only one car, how about selling the expensive car, buying a cheap car, and pocketing the difference, as others have suggested? This will bring in an quick ~$5000.

And are you talking to a real estate agent about putting the rental house on the market, or is that coming soon?

You've made great progress by sticking around. I just am here to push you to not forget about the big items, that could make a serious dent in your debts.

[The beatles]

Congrats, Beatles. You say you can't live with only one car, how about selling the expensive car, buying a cheap car, and pocketing the difference, as others have suggested? This will bring in an quick ~$5000.

And are you talking to a real estate agent about putting the rental house on the market, or is that coming soon?

You've made great progress by sticking around. I just am here to push you to not forget about the big items, that could make a serious dent in your debts.

We actually did talk to a real estate agent (same one who sold us our current home).

She said that we would be foolish to sell the home without doing the roof, as it will push away a lot of buyers and drive our price down.

But then other posters on here say I should sell without the roof done. I dont know.

[The beatles]

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

[CheapScholar]

Hmmm.  That might depend on the market in your area.  It's a seller's market in many locations right now.  The problem with replacing the roof is that you want to get all of those dollars back.  As you know, MANY Americans buy the most expensive place a bank will let them.  By making any improvement you risk reducing the number of prospective buyers.  Does the current roof have a couple years left?  Or does it look awful, and will any home inspector say it needs to be replaced immediately?

BTW, you're killing it Beatles.  You put yourself out there in front of all of us.  Some people, myself included, gave you some harsh words but you took it like a man and you're pushing forward.  Good for you.

[begood]

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

Get back on the horse, beatles! You're on a long journey; there's gonna be a few "one step forward, two steps back" moments. At least you recognize it for what it is.

[former player]

We actually did talk to a real estate agent (same one who sold us our current home).

She said that we would be foolish to sell the home without doing the roof, as it will push away a lot of buyers and drive our price down.

But then other posters on here say I should sell without the roof done. I dont know.

Try another estate agent, hopefully one who deals in rentals.

My take is: you only need one buyer, not lots, and you are probably looking at an investment buyer who is unlikely to be put off by the need for a new roof, and may well be in a better position to get the roof done than you are (eg likely to have contacts and expertise).   

The price will go down, but the question is: will it go down by more than the cost of a new roof?  If not, then you are not losing anything (the estate agent is losing a bit of commission, of course and may have a slightly harder job than usual if they are not used to doing anything other than selling McMansions in the suburbs to owner occupiers).  And given that you don't in any case have the money to fix the roof, what is your alternative to putting it on the market and negotiating a decent price that takes the roof into account?

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

Remote starter?

[YoungGranny]

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

Everybody makes mistakes. You've clearly learned a lot since starting this thread, of course you'll still have setbacks but don't let them derail you. Keep buggering on Beatles!

[pbkmaine]

What's the formula for net worth?

I'm assuming ours would be in the negatives, but what would it be?

Assets minus liabilities equals net worth. So, what you own minus what you owe.

[The beatles]

We actually did talk to a real estate agent (same one who sold us our current home).

She said that we would be foolish to sell the home without doing the roof, as it will push away a lot of buyers and drive our price down.

But then other posters on here say I should sell without the roof done. I dont know.

Try another estate agent, hopefully one who deals in rentals.

My take is: you only need one buyer, not lots, and you are probably looking at an investment buyer who is unlikely to be put off by the need for a new roof, and may well be in a better position to get the roof done than you are (eg likely to have contacts and expertise).   

The price will go down, but the question is: will it go down by more than the cost of a new roof?  If not, then you are not losing anything (the estate agent is losing a bit of commission, of course and may have a slightly harder job than usual if they are not used to doing anything other than selling McMansions in the suburbs to owner occupiers).  And given that you don't in any case have the money to fix the roof, what is your alternative to putting it on the market and negotiating a decent price that takes the roof into account?

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

Remote starter?

That's the thing.

It's not a typical rental.

It's a single family home on a nice street. We lived there and moved out. That's the only reason its a rental.

[The beatles]

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

Get back on the horse, beatles! You're on a long journey; there's gonna be a few "one step forward, two steps back" moments. At least you recognize it for what it is.

Thanks.

[swick]

I did something kinda stupid this morning.

At risk of being called a troll, I won't say what it is.

But i'll just say that i'm still learning to control the urge to spend - apparently.

Use this as a learning experience.

First: Can you undo the damage, take it back?

Second: Identify the circumstances that caused you to slip. Was it the environment, was it something emotional, was it just being on autopilot, was it a habit?

Third: What is the "why" behind the purchase what need were you trying to meet? Copying the advice I suggested earlier

****
Blogs recommendation: Northwest Edible Life's money category:
http://www.nwedible.com/topics/productive-home/frugality-finance/

IF YOU ONLY READ ONE THING:http://www.nwedible.com/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want/

Print out the blank worksheet: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35224895/NWEdible_What_I_Really_Want_From_My_Purchases_Chart.pdf

DO THIS FOR EVERY SINGLE PURCHASE. HAVE YOUR WIFE DO THIS FOR EVERY PURCHASE.

Those "diet" full of sugar, fake snack foods? Why do you want them? What is the purpose those are meeting? What are the FEELINGS you think it will address...what do you REALLY want?

Same with the TV, same with the extra freezer...everything. You have to start thinking critically and thinking deeper. Print out multiple copies of this worksheet. Share your thought process if it helps. This is something you can do RIGHT NOW that will make a BIG difference.
****

Ideally, you ask these questions BEFORE you buy, but you can also ask them afterward to figure out where your head was at.

What I want?

Why I want it?

Problems I think it will solve?

Feelings I think it will address?

What I really want?

Going through this exercise would make a great blog post!

[Jakejake]

Your real estate agent makes a commission based on the sale price of the home.  If she can convince you to invest in the roof yourself and sell the house at a higher cost, does she earn significantly more than if you give the buyers a discount for the cost of the roof?

I'm not a realtor, but it seems like she has a conflict of interest there.

But even so, I'm not sure that's relevant, because you don't have the money to fix the roof. Did you tell the realtor you don't have the money?

Also. Whatever you bought this morning, can you return it? (did you make *past tense* a bad decision, or are you still at this moment continuing to make it?)