The beatles Case Study

[ChipmunkSavings]

Since you're spending about 2000$ on food per month, I think it might be very drastic to cut down to 500 per month, a 75% difference. I'm wondering if you'll feel that it's way too tight and get discouraged. Perhaps aim to reduce by 30% this month? Then, you'll get encouraged by your success, and you can cut down even more in February. Baby steps :)

[Laura33]

Beatles, that's great progress, congrats on sticking through the rough stuff today.  I'm glad you have such great, supportive parents.  So let me ask you: do you want to be in a position to be the same kind of parent for your kids?  To support them when money is tight or times get tough, or to help them pay for college or buy a house?  If so, what's your plan for that? 

Again, not intended to be mean.  Just an added incentive, as a lot of parents are willing to do things for the good of their kids, even if they won't do it for themselves.

I should know - my Granny, Granddad, Grandpa, and stepdad all quit smoking when I was a kid, because I was very allergic to cigarette smoke.  If they could kick 30-year-long addictions for the love of a grandchild, I know you've got this.

[ysette9]

Our favorite chikdhoood mac and cheese recipe was even simpler. If I were to make it now I would choose whole wheat elbow noodles, but to each their own.
1 pound noodles
1 pound sour cream
1 pound cottage cheese
1 pound sharp grated cheddar

Cook noodles, throw everything together and mix over low heat until cheese is melted. Optionally put in oven for ten minutes or so to get the tops all crispy and bubbly. Yum!

[Allie]

Tell your wife that we all had a learning curve!  I used to chop up a veggie, like an onion, for a recipe and then, if I didn't need all of it, I'd throw the rest away.  Because I didn't realize I could put it in a Tupperware and use it for another recipe later.  Seriously. 

On the subject of your parents, even if they decide to give you all the money in their accounts tomorrow, would premade mac and cheese, Dave and busters, and over priced couches (seriously, they were probably like $1,000 wholesale at most) really be what you wanted to spend it on?!?  Show their hard work more respect than that!  Set your kids up with college accounts, do good in your community, have an amazing experience, learn a new skill.  There are so many other things in this world that are better.  Don't use their legacy to buy crap and faux status. 

Sorry, for the rant.  You can do better.

[Dagobert]

That sounds good.

Sept 2017 is far away though.

How do I make it happen faster?

I was a bit worried for you reading this thread, but this is the attitude. Congrats on that. It's really cool to see the snowballeffect of reducing debt due to saving of interest/fee's added. And after all debt is gone it's even cooler to see your stache grow faster and faster due to the same compounded interest (but in your benefit, instead of against you).

Now to answer the question, how to make it go faster. Just reduces expenses everywhere! Doesn't really matter which category, just see of you can reduce it by 10%, 25% or even 50%. There should be a few category's you wont even notice the effect on your day to day life (except for the growing pile of money to throw at debt/invest later on).
Even a few small savings here and there adds up, and are hardly noticable.
Keep using Mint to see what you're spending on every category and what is excessive. We can make suggestions, but you should be the one to think of it. You know what you find important (just a bit of reducing expenses) and what not (reducing massively).
For instance, i like my television, so very anti-mustachian of me, i have i basic package for the (very old) tv. That's my splurge. To compensate i rarely eat out (maybe once a quarter). So i still save a good portion of my income.
The hardcore mustachians advice to cut the tv was not for me, but elimating the restaurants was easy because i dont care about that.

Make the same choice for yourself and make improvments every month reducing the things/expenses that doesn't make you/youre family happy. 

To quote MMM 'think how much hours you have to work to buy the thing you desire at that time, is that worth it' Especially given the fact that the little green workers (dollars) could be used to work for you (by reducing interest payed on debts, or later on, by generating income from investing'. 
 
The most important thing is, just start, reduce a bit of costs here, and some on an other category next month. It keeps improving / snowballing.

[The beatles]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

[Quidnon?]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Ah, no.  That's a rich-kid thing.  Stop buy crap that you can do without on credit.  You don't need 2 couches, much less 4.  And you don't need more than one tv, either, if that thought has already crossed your mind.

[Physicsteacher]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Ah, no.  That's a rich-kid thing.  Stop buy crap that you can do without on credit.  You don't need 2 couches, much less 4.  And you don't need more than one tv, either, if that thought has already crossed your mind.

Seconded. We have exactly one sofa, and it's a hand me down futon we got for free. We also don't have a sitting room or a basement that we feel the need to fill with expensive furniture. What's wrong with sitting on the bed in your bedroom?

[Txtriathlete]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Just tagging onto the last post.

What did you have for dinner tonight? "leftovers" or "freezer meal"? Have you packed lunch for tomorrow? What's for dinner tomorrow night? Leftovers or freezer food? What snacks has your wife prepared (ahead of time) for the babies for tomorrow?

What is your to-do list for tomorrow? (Hint - IRS Accountant, investment realtor(s), Craigslist ads for sofas, tvs and car).

We have one couch (but two tvs).

[pbkmaine]

We have a sofa in the living room, which we got for free, and a futon in the sun room, which we bought for $300 20 years ago. We also have two twin beds at right angles as banquettes in two places in the house. The mattresses were $100 each. They sit on $69 metal frames from Walmart. They are covered with inexpensive sofabed covers (you can get those for as little as $25). The pillows I made myself from fabric remnants. The down inserts were $2 at Goodwill.

We spent less than $2,500 furnishing our entire house, and, as I say, some of that money has been spread over 20 years. Our furniture came from thrift stores, the side of the road, and basements and attics of family and friends who weren't using it. It's all sturdy and built to last for several lifetimes. Our house looks nice. We had 40 people here for a New Year's party and no one refused to sit on our inexpensive furniture.

Frugality is a different way of looking at things. I think it gives us a bigger scope for our imagination than going into a store and buying a matched set of something. We have friends who bought a new house here and furnished it with entirely new furniture. It doesn't have much warmth or personality. I would not trade my furniture for theirs, even though theirs probably cost 20 times what ours did.

[Quidnon?]

We have a sofa in the living room, which we got for free, and a futon in the sun room, which we bought for $300 20 years ago. We also have two twin beds at right angles as banquettes in two places in the house.

I don't know this word.  Does this mean that the twin beds are used as some kind of sitting furniture, and not beds to sleep in?

EDIT: Yes! Google just confirmed it for me!  That's just awesome, and you just gave me an idea about how to reuse an old oak twin bedframe.  I'll add an oak backrest right down the middle, to make a double sided daybed bench.  And then I'll start calling it my "banquette" for the neighbors!  They already think I'm batty.

[pbkmaine]

Both.

This is the room as it normally looks:



Here it is set up as a guest room:

[Bee21]

I expensive leather sofa plus one rattan outside. Bought them with cash after we paid the house (450k) off. Before that, we had a stinky 17 year old sofa which had a fauna of its own.

Why do you need a sofa in tbe bedroom? Are you entertaining visitors there?

[The beatles]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Ah, no.  That's a rich-kid thing.  Stop buy crap that you can do without on credit.  You don't need 2 couches, much less 4.  And you don't need more than one tv, either, if that thought has already crossed your mind.

Im honestly surprised.

I thought everyone has multiple couches.

We also have 3 tv's. Living room, basement and bedroom.

[pbkmaine]

Maybe in the debt-ridden outside world. Not here. We have a very nice TV in the living room, but we lived for many years with  a bulky cube-shaped TV. We are also millionaires, and we did not inherit one cent of it. The way we live, so different from most people, is WHY we are rich. Really. Read "The Millionaire Next Door."

[meandmyfamily]

Wow!  1 couch and 1 TV in 2200 sq. feet and 6 people in our house.

[kms]

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Definitely not a local thing. I live in Texas. Everything is bigger in Texas. Including people's ginormous asses :D And I don't even know what a sitting room is. I was thinking of another ass-size-related joke here but I think we're done with that ;-)

But to answer your question: of course we only have one couch. Why would we need more than one? And, more specifically, why would we ever need a sofa in our bedroom? We have a bed and two night stands in our bedroom - that's it. The couch (aka The One And Only) is in the living room together with a TV (also the only one, but a good one: 50" 4k SmartTV that we got for $400) and a coffee table. We do have a spare mattress for guests that we keep in the closet in the office and take out whenever necessary.

I think you need to sell two of those couches, the most expensive ones. And, since I'm afraid that you also have more than one of those as well, you need to sell all TVs except for one; you get to keep one, the cheapest one. And definitely stop thinking about getting another couch for christ's sake. No more spending money on anything except the bare necessities until you're completely out of debt.

[Allie]

Weird. 

Is your house huge? 

We have 2,200 sqft and have a single couch, a chair that matches the couch, a couple ottoman cube type upholstered things that can be pushed against the walls and have a pillow propped up for seating.  Plus a table and chairs, stools at a breakfast bar, an office chair, a set of entry way benches I made from a $10 Craigslist coffee table, and gliders in the kids rooms rounds out our seating.  Our single TV is 48" and resides in the living room. 

The kids never sit still, I rarely get to sit down during the day, and my husband works.  Right now, we are all home and no one is using a seat (I'm standing at the breakfast bar).  When the kids have friends over, they sit on the floor and when we have friends over, they mill around the open living space. 

Do you really use all of your couches and TVs?  How?  At this point, I'm asking out of genuine curiosity.  I've seen houses with sitting areas stated in the bedroom and always thought it was just for show.

[Bracken_Joy]

1899 Sq Ft. 1 couch- hand me down when my parents moved (it's a great couch though!). 1 TV- 42" we bought when we moved in together 5 years ago. Our coffee table is an old travel trunk- quite stylish. Completely free.

[Quidnon?]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Ah, no.  That's a rich-kid thing.  Stop buy crap that you can do without on credit.  You don't need 2 couches, much less 4.  And you don't need more than one tv, either, if that thought has already crossed your mind.

Im honestly surprised.

I thought everyone has multiple couches.

We also have 3 tv's. Living room, basement and bedroom.

Sell that house, and just about everything in it.  Move back into your rental home as soon as possible.  That house is too big for your family.  You can't afford to pay for the winter heat bill for the extra space.  It's obvious to most of us now that you grew up in a wealthy home, and never learned to adjust your lifestyle to fit your (obviously much lower) family resources.  If your parents insist on helping your family out of this mess, ask them to contribute to that new 529 plan.  You are going to have to learn, the hard way, how to be completely independent from old family money.

[Bee21]

http://www.livingonadime.com

I found this website very useful when i started to get my life in order about 8 years ago. I stopped reading them when the religious content became too much, but their advice about household management, housekeeping, budgeting, family friendly food and kids is extremely valuable. I highly recommend reading it. Especially for your wife.

Or check out lifeasmom.com. she also has a frugal food blog. This too is a bit too religious for me, but the homemaking advice is great.

And stop wasting your time discussing sofas. Have that chat with the cpa.make a list of things you can sell, take photos and post them on cl. Whatever. Use this momentum.

I am off now, i wasted too  much time online, thanks for the entertainment today folks. i have about 24 cupcakes to bake and decorate for the offsprings birthday.

Good luck op, seriously, get your shit together. I will pop back tomorrow to evaluate your menus 😈

[oldladystache]

Net worth over a million here.

As I look around my living room I see the couch and two chairs my friends gave me that they didn't want anymore. I also have a chair my parents gave me when they didn't need it anymore. My recliner I bought probably 30 years ago. It's getting pretty shabby and I may replace it in the next year or two.

Two lamps, one give to me by a friend, one by the local electric company in exchange for one I was given by a friend.

I must admit I have two TVs I bought 12 years ago, as well as an end table I paid $20 for at a rummage sale.

My dining table and chairs were given to me by neighbors.

My bed frame was left behind by tenants, but I bought the mattress.

Bedroom dresser is from my childhood bedroom (I'm 71)

Two desks. One from cleaning out a dead relative's house, the other I don't remember where I got it, but I've had it at least 15 years.

That's it. I'm sure all the furniture in my house cost less than 2 thousand dollars. Over the past 15 years. Call it $133 a year.

[ysette9]

I really desire a nice couch one day. One day... the infamous "one day" when we buy a nice house with double pane widows and central heat and insulation. :) Until then, we have one leather couch set with a couch, love seat (for the other room), and an arm chair (for the baby's room). One day I'll replace it all with a nice L-shaped sleeper sofa that will double as a place to stay for guests.

Point of reference: With the markets being up recently, we just crossed $1.5M.

[Cowardly Toaster]

Here's another thought @Beatles. You might be tightening your belt, setting your jaw, for a few years of frugality, much like you might look forward to a prison sentence.

First of all, this can be a fun family adventure for you, the plunge into frugality. You'll be learning new skills, making your own fun, and coming together as a family.

Second, and this was difficult for my wife at first but now she is a mustache an hard charger: these changes you make for your lifestyle need to be permanent. Sure, you might loosen up a little bit when you come out the other side,  but the philosophy needs to stay.

Have you started your journal yet?

[Allie]

Oh yes!  Start a journal.

And.  When your wife does step up, jumps into being a homemaker, keeps the kids engaged, and lowers all of your costs, give her a big high five and lots of respect, because it's hard work.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

I have two couches (3 seater and 2 seater) in my living room, it's a British thing, we don't tend to have chairs.

However they were bought with cash 12 years ago, and I plan to keep them for at least another 12 years.

[marty998]

Having just chewed through all 300+ posts I would like to express how incredibly impressed I am with the forum for all of the advice, suggestions and patience displayed.

Thread should be stickied for all the goodness. It basically covers absolutely everything one needs to know to get their shit together.

Beatles man - which one do you resemble? John, Ringo, George or Paul? I feel like it would be easier to interact with you if you had a name that we can identify you as :)

[mustachepungoeshere]

Having just chewed through all 300+ posts I would like to express how incredibly impressed I am with the forum for all of the advice, suggestions and patience displayed.

Thread should be stickied for all the goodness. It basically covers absolutely everything one needs to know to get their shit together.

Beatles man - which one do you resemble? John, Ringo, George or Paul? I feel like it would be easier to interact with you if you had a name that we can identify you as :)

Well...

[Trifle]

Beatles -- one of the other posters nailed it. Your furniture is not a regional thing, it's a rich-people-thing.  If you look at all the regulars on the forum, we usually (1) live in modest housing, and (2) drive modest vehicles.  This is a conscious decision we are making that our financial independence is worth more than a new couch or new car.  We are buying our freedom instead of stuff. 

The 4 of us live in a 2200 square foot house which we are in the process of gutting and renovating ourselves.  We are living in it while we do this. You might be horrified if I posted pictures.  If you didn't know better you might think we were destitute, when in fact we are doing great and getting ready to FIRE.  (And the house will be beautiful when we are done). We have one old couch and no TV. We ditched TV more than 10 years ago, and we are SO MUCH HAPPIER.  We have Netflix and watch a movie on our laptop once a week or so.  We feel like we have luxury.  Humans don't need much, and to a large extent, the less we have the happier we are. 

PS -- you are doing great Beatles.  You don't need to make all the changes at once. One step at a time, focus on the financial wins, and it will snowball.  I am sorry your wife is hurt by all this. Is there some way she can connect with other frugal SAHMs in your area?  Having local friends on the same wavelength would help both of you.

   

[Zoot]

On couches (yes, there is a thread for everything  here):
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-much-did-you-pay-for-your-couch-(and-how-long-have-you-had-it)/

I have two couches, but I got both of them for free (one from a co-worker whose new wife didn't like his bachelor couch, and one from a parent who was replacing a perfectly good one).

In fact, come to think of it, the only items I've paid for in my four-bedroom house are a queen bedstead (bought at a yard sale for $100), a king headboard (bought at a consignment store when I got married a few years ago), and some particle-board bookshelves that I bought in my college days (20-30 years ago).  Everything else I've gotten for free in one way or another. 

Do not ever, ever, ever buy new furniture.  In some ways it's even worse than buying a new car at a dealership--the car may take a 20% hit when you drive it off the lot, but furniture takes a much, much larger hit--you will never be able to sell it for anything like what you bought it for. 

We could afford to re-furnish our house with new furniture, today, in cash, if we wanted to.  The key is not wanting to. 

One way I like to look at it is through Buddhism's concept of the Four Noble Truths--which, even if you're not Buddhist in particular (I'm not) or religious in general (I am), have a lot of wisdom to share.  Basically, it runs like this:

1.  Life is suffering.
2.  Suffering arises from attachment/craving.
3.  Suffering can be ended by putting an end to attachment/craving.
4.  The way to end attachment/craving is through the "Eightfold Path":  restraining oneself, cultivating discipline, practicing mindfulness.

MMM has talked about stoicism to describe Mustachianism, but I've always thought of it as an expression of the Four Noble Truths:

1.  You are a Consumer Sucka, imprisoned to your job.
2.  You are a Consumer Sucka because you are attached to the way the world wants you to live.
3.  You can stop being a Consumer Sucka  and liberate yourself from your job through ending attachment to the way the world wants you to live, and ending your own cravings for consumer crap.
4.  The way to end attachment/craving is through the MMM way:  restraining oneself, cultivating discipline, practicing mindfulness.

More on the Four Noble Truths:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

Keep going!  We are all cheering you on!



(edited for syntax and grammar)

[Trifle]

Well said, Zoot.  Very nice. 

Beatles -- I wanted to say one other thing. Please don't get the sense we are preaching down at you.  Many of us have been in your situation, or even worse.  I did not get really serious about frugality until I was 35.  I had more debt than you have.  (Educational loans and mortgage).  We made less money than you are making now.  With some mindset changes, and reducing our desire for stuff, we turned it around.  If we (and others on the forum) can do it, you can do it too.

You may decide to keep your couches, because they will not sell for much.  That's fine.  In a few years, when your frugality muscles are bulging and your bank accounts are fat, you will probably still be happily using that same furniture.  And you probably won't want new stuff.  But if you do, you'll find something for free or cheap that thrills you.     

[nessness]

I see we've moved on to sofas, but I want to go back to groceries for a minute. A lot of the advice basically amounts to "tell your wife to buck up", which I don't think is entirely helpful. First, you're the one posting here, not her. And second, kids that age are exhausting, and she may not be up for that many changes that fast.

So I woild urge you to instead ask yourself, "how can I personally contribute to reducing our food bill?"

A couple suggestions:
1. One evening a week, sit down together and make a grocery list. Then stop on the way home from work the next day to buy the groceries. Added benefit: discussing the list together will help keep you guys accountable.
2. Spend a couple hours on the weekend making freezer meals and prepping healthy snacks (fruit, etc.) and putting them in pre-portioned containers so your wife can just grab them during the week. Or take the kids for a couple hours while she does these things - ask her what she would prefer.

[Trifle]

Oh yes!  Start a journal.

And.  When your wife does step up, jumps into being a homemaker, keeps the kids engaged, and lowers all of your costs, give her a big high five and lots of respect, because it's hard work.

Yes!  Your wife's job in this new enterprise is going to be harder than yours.  She will have a steep learning curve, like most of us did at first.  Big respect is due, plus all the support you can muster. 

As I mentioned above, finding other families on the same wavelength in your area will help both of you. 

[ChipmunkSavings]

Definitely a rich people thing. With a huge house, you get more rooms that you have to fill up with stuff. We currently have a set of couches (two seater + three seater) in the living room with our main TV, as well as one couch in the basement (close to the treadmill) with our smaller TV. However, all couches were hand-me-downs from family, and our second TV was less than 200$.

I would never want to have a TV in my bedroom, no matter the financials of it. That's why you have a living room.

You could always calculate your % of TV usage per room. If it's anything like my boyfriend's parents (who did have a big house), the living room got 90% of the TV usage, the sitting room was about 5%, and the rest was 5%.

I don't remember where I've seen it, but some people have calculated heat map based on average usage of the different parts of our homes. I can't find it, but I remember it showed that the kitchen, bathroom, living room and bedroom got the most usage. The other rooms (such as sitting room) were almost non-existant in the usage.

[RetiredAt63]

Agree with other posters re your wife and the SAHM job (and it is a job) - she may never have learned how to cook from scratch.  This is nothing new, I wasn't interested in learning to cook and basically taught myself once I needed to. My DD wasn't interested and has now taught herself, with the occasional phone call to me for help.  Does your MIL cook?  Does your wife have a good relationship with her?     

In some ways it is easier now, with Youtube and online recipes and home-making blogs.  I did have the benefit of growing up with a mother who cooked, and in a time when takeout was not common (um, past uncommon, rare and exotic).  But being able to cook is a basic life skill, you both need to be able to cook.  Apart from the savings, the taste (and nutrition) is sooo much better.

In the meantime, you have a full freezer, so that may help the transition be a bit easier.  Or you may find it is full of not-really-food, which should be an eyeopener as to where your food money has gone.

[RetiredAt63]

And furniture, I am comfortably retired, and everything in my house is either from family, bought at yard sales, from the return room at Ikea, or bought 1/2 price (lawn furniture in September, living room couch and chair and TV on Boxing Day after waiting 5 months to buy them (lawn furniture is fine inside too)).  And my friends think my house is very nicely furnished.  Even my computer is a refurbished office desktop, and my china (Noritake, so nice) was bought at auction.  It gets to be a game, maximum return for minimum financial investment, maximum ingenuity.

This is a general comment, not aimed just at you: Big houses and families - everyone can go someplace else and family members end up isolated from each other.  TV where people eat - they watch TV during dinner instead of talking with each other = more social isolation, poorer social skills.   No-one needs a big house, they need the right size house - small enough that they feel like a family, big enough that they are not always irritating each other.  A big house needs more maintenance, both financially (e.g. big fancy roofline = lots of money when it needs re-shingling) and time (with a big house you and your wife will spend a lot of time cleaning, or have to hire a cleaning service, neither of which is good).  And square feet is not everything, a smaller well-laid out house is nicer than a larger poorly laid out house.  Which brings me back to you two - can your wife keep an eye on the kids while they play safely and still do cooking/whatever?  If not, that implies bad house design for your family situation - it might be fine for a family with teenagers.

[Cranky]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

What? Really?  I mean, you obviously have a much bigger house than mine, but we have *1* sofa, in the living room. We splurged a couple of years ago and bought it brand new from IKEA (and paid cash) as well as a matching chaise lounge. I do have a futon in the spare room, which is sofa-like. I bought it at the ReStore, and one of my kids slept on it for years, and eventually it ended up in the spare room where it is both the guest bed as needed and a sofa when I retreat back there because I don't want to watch sports in the living room.

Helpful hint - small children will be happy to watch tv in your living room with a pile of pillows and some blankets. You really only needed the sofa cushions, not the sofa itself. ;-)

[Neustache]

We have a 2000 square foot house and we have three sofa type pieces:

Sitting room (where our computer is, no TV) chaise lounge given to us last year. It's probably 15 years old.
Family room/TV room - we were really going to buy a new couch....then my MIL gave us her awesome, 10 year old couch. 
Basement - my husband has a sentimental attachment to the couch his parents owned in the 70's/80's.  We received from them and it's moved with us two times. 


We aren't millionaires...yet.

[LadyStache in Baja]

Ok, so now it sounds like you have a mansion.  Why do you need a TV in your basement with such little kids?  Growing up we had a TV in the basement, but we were older by that point and we played video games down there.  Looking back we didn't need it though, we could have played video games on the TV in the living room. 

Why do you need three TVs with only 2 adults?  I just don't get it.  Don't you like each other?  Don't you like to hang out TOGETHER?

Ok, so since you live in a MANSION, or more probably a McMansion, I bet it would rent for a lot more than your rental.  Move to the rental, and rent out your ginormous house. 

And heads up to your wife, having a smaller house is very beneficial with kids: less space to clean, and easier to keep an eye on them while she's in the kitchen.

Doesn't your wife want to create her own profile name and come on here and talk with us directly?  We're fun!

[Iplawyer]

In that case maybe I take back what I said about selling them early. Maybe you should try and sell them for 2k and pay them off right away. Think about it.

By the way: sofas? as in plural? If so why would you need more than one? How many sofas can you sit on at the same time? Or has your ass become so big from all the pop and snacks that you need more than one sofa to fit on comfortably? (just kidding)

Lmao!

I laughed at that ass comment.

But seriously, you only have one sofa in your house? There's one for the living room, one for the sitting room, one for the basement, and we were thinking about one for the bedroom.

Maybe it's a local thing?

Yes - I have two in my vacation home and two in my regular home.  But my NW is over $4M, and our annual income is over 5 times yours. I paid cash for all four of them.  And NONE OF THEM COST $1000 EACH.  I'm wondering what is wrong with you when you are still laughing about this?  You are freely admitting that paying for these will cost you more than 10% of what you earn in a year.  Do you see how absolutely ridiculous that is? 

I think until you are able to come to terms with what you can really afford - you are doomed to fail.  We lived in a brand new house for 4 years before furnishing the living room - waiting until we could pay cash for that furniture. I think in the back of your mind - you believe you are as well off as your parents are - and that drives your spending - and so does the fact that you know that they will bail you out and pat you on the head and tell you what a good boy you are.

It might well be the case that you are going to inherit a bunch of money.  I can guarantee you that if you don't learn to live within your means now you will blow right through that and end up working until you die the way you are going.  You'll just ratchet up the spending.  If you are serious about getting on track and getting your finances under control - part of what you need to do is to come to grips with this attitude. 

[LadyStache in Baja]

I think until you are able to come to terms with what you can really afford - you are doomed to fail.  We lived in a brand new house for 4 years before furnishing the living room - waiting until we could pay cash for that furniture.

Yes this. I just braided my hair in the reflection of my bedroom window because I DONT HAVE A MIRROR IN THE BATHROOM.  I didn't think ok, I have a bathroom, time to fill it with all the things "normal" people have.  No, I'm waiting until we can afford it.  (In case you're wondering why the bathroom didn't have a mirror when we moved in, it's because we built our house ourselves, so it's pretty bare bones until we can afford to furnish it). 

My husband uses the left over shard of mirror from when we had a hand mirror to shave.

You may laugh at me and think we're poor and that you're "above" living like that.  But newsflash!  My networth is bigger than yours.

[RetiredAt63]

Doesn't your wife want to create her own profile name and come on here and talk with us directly?  We're fun!

We are fun when we are not doing metaphorical face punches.  Lots of people on here with kids of various ages, doing "make life better and have fun doing it".

Lots of good stuff in Sharing Your Badassity  and  Throw Down the Gauntlet.

[Poundwise]

Hey beatles,

You did well yesterday.  What's on the agenda today?

Also, I have a question. Are you or your wife on FaceBook etc?  Or whom else do you know who goes around spending like you? Because I would suggest that you take a vacation from the social influences that might make you feel like your spending is ordinary. 

[charis]

We have 4 people in a 3-bedroom 1500 sq home, not including the finished basement playroom that's been recently hit by a kid bomb.  We have nice L-shaped couch with chaise that we bought new for $1,200 in cash 5 years ago in the living room. 

This was before I found MMM and the money should have gone to our SL debt, but at least we didn't buy on credit.  The couch is still decent because I cover it with a blanket most of the time but has some stains and needs a seam repair.   

The only other couch-like furniture we have is used Craigslist futon in the basement for visitors and used overstuffed sofa chair that was free from a former boss (torn up by grad school, two kids, two dogs, and one cat). 

We gross almost twice your salary and only debt is remaining student loans (paid off 20K in last 2ish years) and 90K mortgage.  Not mentioning to be superior but to add prospective to your situation.  I also have parents who like to be generous and offer money for things.  At this point, we gratefully accept checks at Christmas (directly into 529s) and family dinner at their favorite diner.  The best thing I can do for them is be financially independent and encourage them to save their wealth by not spending their money.

[BlueHouse]

Good grief, 350 comments in two days?  Beatles, I applaud you for not giving up already.  I would have run for the hills when I was new if I had received that type of welcome. 

Okay, so here's another perspective from someone who is not all that frugal but who has really learned a lot over the past few years on this forum.  I've made some life-changing decisions based on knowledge and advice from some of the people who are giving you advice now, and I've been implementing it as I can incorporate it into my life. 

1.  People on this forum tend to be self-made and we're proud of our accomplishments, even more so when we endure some pain (stoicism) or baddassity to get there.  So when you consider taking an easy-out (your parents), you'll get whiplash from all the face-punches! 

2.  Regarding the stocism and badassity mentioned above, it's a real badge of honor around these parts to do something that others might consider a hardship and to find joy in doing it.  If we could all walk 10 miles in the snow to school each day, we would!  But not everyone adopts badassity in every aspect of their life.  I might do one badass thing, like install my own plumbing fixtures or try a DIY project, but then be a sissy and hire cleaners to wash my windows.  You've been pounded from all directions by different people who want to be badass, but you don't have to do ALL of these things.  Just get started and start making progress.

3.  Regarding the groceries and eating out.  I hate cooking and I find every excuse in the world not to do it, but I've improved 10-fold since finding the MMM path.  I do use a slow cooker and make at least one big batch of something per week for all of my lunches.  I still have a long way to go because I see how large my grocery bill is and when I add it all up, I think about how many future days I could buy with the food I throw in the garbage each week.  This year I'll focus on groceries and planning my meals better.  I had an injury a few years ago and having groceries delivered once per week forced me to plan (and stick to that plan).  But I let go of that when I could walk again and I need to reinstitute some of that planning.

4.  Your couches, TV, house.  I bought a too-big house and budgeted to furnish it in my first few years.  I spent a shit-ton of money.  It's furnished.  I look like all of my neighbors and have a couch and a TV where you would expect to find them.  That's not how you find happiness.  Another poster mentioned to stay off Facebook -- I agree, it's an environment that is all about "keeping up with the Joneses".  Instead, I read these forums and I try to keep up by seeing how low I can get my thermostat.  Or how long I can go without using my car (I don't use my car on weekends anymore unless I'm sleeping somewhere that is not my house - I do all my errands by foot or by bike!)  These things make me so proud to see what I'm capable of and after you do it for a while, you don't want to go back. 

5.  Buying stuff -- no-spend days, weeks, or months are challenging at first.  I started with cash-only and if I didn't have the cash, I walked out of a store.  Can't tell you how many times I did a "Shop and Drop" when I got started.  It forced me to prioritize what I really needed.  Especially in the grocery store. 

Point is, all the trappings of normal suburban life are really trappings -- they're not getting you what you really want.  Slow and steady wins this race.  Find a way to get your wife on board.  Small things count and they lead to bigger things.

Good luck, I'm rooting for you! 

[honeybbq]

That sounds good.

Sept 2017 is far away though.

How do I make it happen faster?

You START here. Once you have DONE THIS you tackle your grocery spending, your sense of entitlement and all of the other problems you have. You have been given so many ideas and options and things to consider doing at this point, you have to stop making excuses and asking for MORE INFORMATION and DO THE WORK - that is how you make it happen faster.

What sense of entitlement?

Can you point to a specific thing so I know what you're speaking of.

Wanting to default on your credit cards and reward yourself with a trip to Hawaii is entitlement.

[honeybbq]

You don't have a problem with this? You are a grown adult with your own children. The bank of Mommy and Daddy should be CLOSED.

I'm honestly trying to figure out why its a problem.

Whats the problem with parents helping their kids?

Even when they're an adult, whats the harm?

I mean, do you feel bad that Donald Trump's kids get money from their dad? Or just non-billionaire parents?

The problem is that you are not self-sufficient. You spend more than you earn. What happens if your parents cut off the faucet and you are left holding the bag? What if you parents become ill and spend all their money? Do you want your kids begging at your door for the rest of their lives? That's what you're teaching them. At least Trump's daughter has her own business.

[J Boogie]

I think until you are able to come to terms with what you can really afford - you are doomed to fail.  We lived in a brand new house for 4 years before furnishing the living room - waiting until we could pay cash for that furniture.

Yes this. I just braided my hair in the reflection of my bedroom window because I DONT HAVE A MIRROR IN THE BATHROOM.  I didn't think ok, I have a bathroom, time to fill it with all the things "normal" people have.  No, I'm waiting until we can afford it.  (In case you're wondering why the bathroom didn't have a mirror when we moved in, it's because we built our house ourselves, so it's pretty bare bones until we can afford to furnish it). 

My husband uses the left over shard of mirror from when we had a hand mirror to shave.

You may laugh at me and think we're poor and that you're "above" living like that.  But newsflash!  My networth is bigger than yours.

You must be joking.  I've collected 3 quality mirrors I found randomly in the alley.  You can find mirrors in the free section on craigslist all day.  Mirrors at goodwill don't cost a whole lot either.

I don't laugh at you and think you're poor, but I do find your deferred furnishing strategy to be illogical and off putting for someone who is seeking financial advice.  Clearly this dude and his family will not be inspired to be more frugal by knowing there are wealthier people out there using shards when they need to shave.

I think there's something else at play here - the use of self-deprivation as some sort of physcological tool.  I wouldn't risk promoting this strategy to a normal guy with a wife and kids.  He could come off as a total kook and lose his credibility when pushing for better financial habits. 

[LadyStache in Baja]

I think until you are able to come to terms with what you can really afford - you are doomed to fail.  We lived in a brand new house for 4 years before furnishing the living room - waiting until we could pay cash for that furniture.

Yes this. I just braided my hair in the reflection of my bedroom window because I DONT HAVE A MIRROR IN THE BATHROOM.  I didn't think ok, I have a bathroom, time to fill it with all the things "normal" people have.  No, I'm waiting until we can afford it.  (In case you're wondering why the bathroom didn't have a mirror when we moved in, it's because we built our house ourselves, so it's pretty bare bones until we can afford to furnish it). 

My husband uses the left over shard of mirror from when we had a hand mirror to shave.

You may laugh at me and think we're poor and that you're "above" living like that.  But newsflash!  My networth is bigger than yours.

You must be joking.  I've collected 3 quality mirrors I found randomly in the alley.  You can find mirrors in the free section on craigslist all day.  Mirrors at goodwill don't cost a whole lot either.

I don't laugh at you and think you're poor, but I do find your deferred furnishing strategy to be illogical and off putting for someone who is seeking financial advice.  Clearly this dude and his family will not be inspired to be more frugal by knowing there are wealthier people out there using shards when they need to shave.

I think there's something else at play here - the use of self-deprivation as some sort of physcological tool.  I wouldn't risk promoting this strategy to a normal guy with a wife and kids.  He could come off as a total kook and lose his credibility when pushing for better financial habits.

Actually here in Mexico where I live second hand stuff is really hard to come by.  There's not a huge ton of wealthy people throwing out perfectly good stuff because they need to get a new matching set for their new big house.  Our local craigslist is filled with people running businesses selling shit at normal prices. :(

Not having cheap second-hand stores is really sad for me. 

But you're right, I'm not saying that beatles has to sell his bathroom mirrors.  I'm just trying to provide some perspective.  We haven't gotten a mirror because we just don't care enough.  I know we're weird.  The point is that he should think about his desire to furnish an empty house and all the rooms in it like he sees in magazines, and think about what he actually needs and actually uses.  There's no way those three couches are getting use all at the same time.  Why don't they get one couch and sit on it all the time, instead of splitting their sitting between three different couches?  They have a living room and a sitting room.  WHY?  I mean if you're wealthy, go for it.  I'm just trying to push back against the idea that a House should look a certain way. 

Also, I have no idea what the back of my head looks like in these braids, and it may be a disaster.  Not for everyone.  :)

Oh, and beatles, my snarky networth comment is just to point out that you need to live within your means.  Not meant to be offensive.

Bluehouse was right on with their comment.  We are trying to be badass.  And I might be really badass at not having a mirror (wheras others will say, I guess....if that's your thing, right?!), and totally not badass at other things (my kids go to private school, for one, and we eat out too much). 

But beatles wants to get things moving faster, and so he needs to change his perspective on what he NEEDS vs what he WANTS.

[Molzy]

I haven't read through all the comments on this thread (I can't keep up as new ones are posted) but I wanted to say you don't have to be as extreme as some people here to still live frugally, it's all relative.

For example, we own two TVs, a couch, and TWO love seats and two chairs! But all were paid for with cash, one of the love seats is from Craigslist and the other set we bought last year when we got our house and suddenly had a living room and a family room (and no, it's not a McMansion, it's 1200 square feet, just well laid out). Perhaps it's excessive, and generally we only use one room at a time (my husband and I generally like spending time together), but sometimes he wants to play video games in one room while I watch a show in the other room. We already had both TVs from when we lived in two homes, and we were easily able to afford the new couch set while still paying aggressively on our student loans.

I derive happiness from a nice house. So we spend some of our money on things like throw pillows and new paint. But I shop around, and put up with the fact that some of our rooms will stay outdated for a few years. I buy what I can used (like our dresser and night stands) and shop sales for other things (like a new duvet cover when our old one had holes all over it). I don't think it's bad to like having nice things, I love watching HGTV and admiring houses...just do it within your budget. And if you have to put it on a credit card it's likely not in your budget (we use credit cards for purchases for the points and protection it offers, but pay in full each month).

Congrats on the progress you have made, and good luck in the future.