Author Topic: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk  (Read 5891 times)

classicrando

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Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« on: August 27, 2024, 08:00:14 AM »
nothing here
« Last Edit: May 19, 2025, 05:23:51 AM by classicrando »

lhamo

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice about job/career change
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2024, 10:57:49 AM »
I think you are overthinking this.

Is the cost of housing high in places like Boston/Seattle/Silly Vally?  Definitely.  But it is not un-doable, especially with two professional incomes.

What kind of place do you want/need?  Here in my corner of far north Seattle, we were recently paying $3400/month for a very nice 3 br house.  Decent 2br apartments can be had for 2000-2500 if you look hard. 

Here are the current Seattle and Bay area listings for the property management company that managed our last rental: 

https://pmp.managebuilding.com/Resident/Public/Rentals?bedrooms=0&bathrooms=0

Re:  jobs, it sounds like you are also underestimating your skill set and desirability.  Sounds like you are basically the manager of a physical plant, or something similar?  Every city has similar businesses that need generalist manager skills.  Maybe a shift into some kind of project management?  Is there a particular area or sector that interests you?  Maybe solar/renewable energy?  I would start looking into things that interest you and then networking in those fields to find out how your existing skill set could cross over into a new career track. 


Laura33

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice about job/career change
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2024, 12:36:30 PM »
I look at your responsibilities and don't see a lack of qualifications for any job -- I see qualifications for many, many jobs!  So many things you listed are each their own entire job area.  Seems to me you can pick the specific areas you're most interested in and find any number of potential jobs in those areas.  Are there ancillary jobs in those areas that might mean just a little extra training/certification, instead of a whole career switch?  For example, you have fire/safety experience; could you get certified as, say, a fire inspector?  Or look for related government jobs (such as a job at OSHA or the equivalent state agency)?  Your varied experience gives you many, many possible pathways.

Also, keep in mind that there are as many ways to split expenses as there are couples.  One of the most common is to share expenses based on salary, so if your SO makes 2/3 the money, they cover 2/3 of the bills.  That could mitigate some of your concerns about more HCOL areas.  Or you could arrange that you make the downpayment on the house and your SO makes the mortgage payments, since you have more hard assets than they do.  Etc. etc. etc. -- it's just about finding what feels fair to both of you. 

And just moving to a HCOL area doesn't mean you have to live in the thick of the most expensive area.  If you find another comparable job for a smaller company, they're more likely to be in some suburban industrial park than a hip downtown neighborhood.  If your SO continues to work at least partly remotely, that would enable you to live farther out, in a cheaper area, while still being in an area that gives them job flexibility.

IOW, don't let your fears get in the way of a change that could potentially benefit both of you.  You have a very solid base to build from, in terms of both finances and work experience, and your SO's salary will provide a great cushion against higher ongoing expenses.  Figure out how to break down your experience into relevant job areas, target some areas of the country, and start looking!

classicrando

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice about job/career change
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2024, 05:41:50 AM »
@lhamo @Laura33 Thank you for your kind words and perspective.  I am definitely overthinking this too much.  I guess I was just alarmed a bit when I was looking up rent and housing costs near the offices of the companies that my partner is currently interviewing with.  When you only have ~$500 per month in taxes + condo fee, $3500 per month for an apartment half the size looks like a lot.  Time to update my resume, I guess! :D

classicrando

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2024, 08:06:44 AM »
I updated some information and asked a new question, so I'm just bumping this rather than creating a new thread (which I think is the proper way to do this around here).  Thanks in advance for your eyeballs and ideas.

lhamo

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2024, 09:01:51 AM »
Can you change the color of the font on your additions to make it easier to read?  That light yellow is really hard to see.

classicrando

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2024, 09:18:39 AM »
Oh, sorry!  That was the old information that I felt wasn't relevant to the new line of questioning.  I was trying to grey it out, rather than using strikethrough.  I'll fix it to something readable, but still ignorable.

lhamo

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2024, 09:26:45 AM »
Oh -- I see. 

I don't think you are missing any major sorcery.  It is possible to reach FI without rental properties or self-owned businesses.  Good luck with a primary home can help -- ended up being a key component of my FIRE journey, but I was VERY lucky.  Keep maxing out retirement investments into good no- or low-fee investments as you are able to.  I think you should be able to do backdoor Roth contributions even if you technically exceed the income limits (never had this situation so not really up to speed on that process).  Also, since you clearly can live happily on modest amounts, do not underestimate the power a good taxable brokerage account can have in fueling low-tax FIRE due to the currently low capital gains rate -- had I understood this better a few years ago I probably would have had a MUCH larger stash than I currently do.

Freedomin5

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2024, 01:35:49 PM »
Congratulations! Looks like you’ve gotten to the boring middle part of wealth accumulation where you’re just socking as much as possible into your tax-advantaged and taxable accounts. Just continue following the Investment Order and you’ll be fine.

classicrando

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2024, 05:50:07 AM »
Ok, thanks y'all, I appreciate the encouragement.  I just see so much discussion of tax strategies and property ownership and multiple income streams and I wonder if there is something else or different that we should be doing.  Much like the conversations about the various accounting alchemies that allow one to access their retirement accounts before the required age, I wonder if there is something similarly unfamiliar that we could be taking advantage of at this point.

Welcome to the boring middle indeed, I suppose. :P

Laura33

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2024, 02:03:32 PM »
You know what kind of sorcery exists?  Time.  The power of compounding is unreal.  I look back 20-ish years to the beginning of our marriage, and I remember buying what I considered to be a ridiculously-priced townhouse and wondering who the hell could ever afford the single-family homes behind us -- I mean, really, we had two professional incomes, no debt, and no kids, and we couldn't afford them, so who in the world could?*  Now I own two homes, one free and clear where we plan to retire, and the other our current primary home that only has about $100K left on the mortgage (which remains only because the interest rate is so low I refuse to pre-pay one red cent).

The problem, though, is that the power of compounding is back-loaded -- you feel like you are just sort of creeping along making sooooo little progress for years, and then you look up and boom! you're rich.  Your $500K in investments would be a million 10 years from now, even if you never added another cent -- and something like $4M by the time you hit 80. 

That means that the best thing you can do for right now is maximize the amount you save.  And you have a great base for doing so, with a paid-off condo, newly-high combined salaries, and generally low COL.  So focus on not increasing your lifestyle, and you will absolutely set yourself up for longer-term success.

Yeah, there are ways that you can make money -- real estate is definitely one way to get there that works for some folks -- but doing that effectively means putting in a lot of your own time in learning how to spot good deals and managing the rentals.  With your skills and background, you seem pretty likely to be able to manage that, if that's something you're interested in.  But even then, it's a business that grows over time -- the long-term benefit is having the tenant pay off the mortgage, which then creates equity you can tap to buy more properties, and then those new tenants pay down the mortgage on the new properties, creating even more equity to tap for future purchases, etc. etc.  But you still have to build the equity first, and unless you luck into an absolutely booming property market, that takes time.  There really aren't any quick fixes.


*Side note:  in retrospect, the answer was "us" -- we'd have easily qualified for a loan for one of those houses, but it would have meant cutting way back on savings.  Feeling like we couldn't ever get ahead was created by the very habits that allowed us to get ahead in the long term.

classicrando

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2024, 05:59:40 AM »
Yeah, I know what you mean by the power of time.  I've been saving and investing for the past 30 years, and my wealth has definitely grown compared to my contributions over that period.  I was looking at my records the other day, and I was surprised how quickly my retirement accounts went from 100 to 400k, compared to how long it took to get to 100k in the first place.

I think part of what prompted this second line of questioning here was a discussion I had with a coworker.  My coworker is also a real estate agent on the side and recently bought a new $65k Tesla that she uses as part of her realtor-ing and was talking about keeping records and her accountant making various deductions that made the car much more affordable.  Now, this car is more than her annual salary at the place where we work together and, by her admission, she currently only sells a house every 2-3 months (she plans to quit this job when she's selling an average of 1 property per month).  Assuming everything she told me is reasonably accurate, and since this is the US and almost everyone needs a car (esp. here in Florida), it made me wonder if there was something we could be doing that would allow us to fund or deduct things we were going to be doing anyway.  She's the only person I've known personally that has been as forthright about some of the advantages to owning a business.  Other people I've known have alluded to advantages, beyond simply selling one's product or service, but have never really spelled anything out.  So that's why I ask here, as there is a breadth and depth of knowledge and a willingness to share it.  Like, I've witnessed more open conversations about money here on this forum than I've ever experienced in real life.  You see what I'm saying?

FLBiker

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2024, 08:05:55 AM »
Agree with folks on their not being sorcery, and apologies if I missed it, but what is your asset allocation?  If it's overly conservative, that will definitely slow you down.  I've been 90/10 stock to bonds, roughly globally market weighted for about 15 years.  I have a salary similar to yours, DW earns much less, and we've basically hit FI.  Time is the secret.

Laura33

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2024, 09:24:29 AM »
I think part of what prompted this second line of questioning here was a discussion I had with a coworker.  My coworker is also a real estate agent on the side and recently bought a new $65k Tesla that she uses as part of her realtor-ing and was talking about keeping records and her accountant making various deductions that made the car much more affordable.  Now, this car is more than her annual salary at the place where we work together and, by her admission, she currently only sells a house every 2-3 months (she plans to quit this job when she's selling an average of 1 property per month).  Assuming everything she told me is reasonably accurate, and since this is the US and almost everyone needs a car (esp. here in Florida), it made me wonder if there was something we could be doing that would allow us to fund or deduct things we were going to be doing anyway.  She's the only person I've known personally that has been as forthright about some of the advantages to owning a business.  Other people I've known have alluded to advantages, beyond simply selling one's product or service, but have never really spelled anything out.  So that's why I ask here, as there is a breadth and depth of knowledge and a willingness to share it.  Like, I've witnessed more open conversations about money here on this forum than I've ever experienced in real life.  You see what I'm saying?

So the way you get those advantages is to own a business.  The tax code has advantages for businesses that do not apply to regular people working W-2 jobs. 

There are two primary disadvantages that go along with this, though. 

1.  It is a job.  You have to dedicate time and energy and hustle to grow the business to make the money to get the tax breaks.  The nice thing about investing is that if you don't feel like fretting about it, you can just choose something like VTSAX and set up automatic deductions and call it good -- IOW, it's something you can easily do on top of a regular job.  We all have the same 24/7/365; it's just how you choose to divide it up.

2. You still have to spend the money to get the tax breaks.  This is the bit that doesn't make a lot of sense to me if the goal is FIRE.  Say you're a RE agent, you need a car to drive your clients around.  You buy a $65K "nice" vehicle.  Everyone is impressed!  You must be rich if you can afford such a nice car!  And the government pays for it!  You must be pretty smart, too.  It's a great way to impress people?

But are you wealthier?  Sure, you get to deduct part of the costs of the car every year* and deduct the mileage you use in that job.  But you've still spent $65K on a car!  And you still pay the operating costs for that car for all the time you're not using it on the job!  Sure, the tax deduction save you some money -- but you still had to work enough hours to earn the $65K to buy the car in the first place. 

Note also that the tax breaks mean that you just don't pay taxes on that part of your income, which means the "savings" is whatever your marginal tax bracket is.  IOW, if you get to deduct, say, $20K/yr from your taxes as business expenses, and you're in the $22% tax bracket, you have saved $4400.  OTOH, again: you had to pay $65K for a car to get that $4400/yr.

IMO, those tax breaks are really helpful if your goal is to live a flashy lifestyle without paying for it all.  OTOH, if your goal is to maximize savings and investment, not so much.

Now, there are situations when you can use the tax breaks to help grow your wealth.  The obvious case is real estate investments, where you can take out a loan to buy a property that produces income, and then deduct the interest on the loan and costs of running/managing that property.  That option really does let the tenant and the government buy a property for you, and you can ultimately use the income and equity for whatever you want.  But a lot of people don't distinguish between that scenario and things like a flashy car and lifestyle improvements that don't add to the bottom line.  And this also takes us back to point 1:  it's still a job that requires a fair bit of your time if you want to do it properly -- at least until you get to the point you can hire someone to manage things for you. 

Which brings us back to:  there's no secret sauce or magic answer.  Any path to wealth requires time and effort.  You can absolutely use the tax code to help grow wealth through your own business -- if you're willing to dedicate your free time to developing and growing that business, and if you don't let the lure of "tax deductions" lead you to spend more money than you need to.


*My understanding is when you buy an asset like a car, you don't get to deduct the whole $65K in the first year -- you have to amortize it over the useful life of the car; tax people have schedules for things like this.  So say it's a 6-7-year useful life, that means you get to deduct $10K/year.  And then you can fully deduct operating costs, like the mileage you drive.  So maybe that car gets you $20K/yr in tax breaks, just for a round number.

muskrat

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2024, 10:28:17 AM »
I think you are doing great.  Just make sure you aren't missing on life experiences and bucket list items.  You are almost 50 and won't be able to do the stuff in 20 years that you could do now.  I am assuming you are planning to DINK but if you want kids someday then I would plan for that.

classicrando

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2024, 05:47:03 AM »
This is the sort of high quality commentary and explanation I come to these forums for.  Especially the detailed response from @Laura33.  The way you said everything made several things click in my head and I "got it".  Like, the people I've known who owned businesses were almost always projecting that image of success via purchases of vehicles, a fancier house with dedicated "office space", or "business dinners" or whatever.

And I agree about a lot of this extra stuff being a bunch of extra risk and work, as I had mentioned in my comment about my conversation with a friend about the rentals he has.  I had wanted to know if there was something I was missing in my assessment of such an undertaking compared to investing in a Vanguard fund.

@FLBiker Our asset allocations are primarily total market funds (which ones are dependent on what's available in the 401k accounts, Vanguard otherwise), with smatterings of individual stocks.

@muskrat Definitely DINK over here.  We've done a lot of travel since the beginning of 2022, so we are being mindful of life experiences.  On the plus side, nobody that sees me thinks I'm anywhere near 50 unless I haven't dyed my hair; and then they think I look like the Witcher. ;)  I have reasonable hopes to be at least as active as my 82 year old neighbor; we take him rock climbing with us sometimes.

FLBiker

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2024, 06:53:00 AM »

@FLBiker Our asset allocations are primarily total market funds (which ones are dependent on what's available in the 401k accounts, Vanguard otherwise), with smatterings of individual stocks.


Sounds like you're on the right track!

JupiterGreen

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2024, 06:51:00 AM »
This is the sort of high quality commentary and explanation I come to these forums for.  Especially the detailed response from @Laura33.  The way you said everything made several things click in my head and I "got it".  Like, the people I've known who owned businesses were almost always projecting that image of success via purchases of vehicles, a fancier house with dedicated "office space", or "business dinners" or whatever.

And I agree about a lot of this extra stuff being a bunch of extra risk and work, as I had mentioned in my comment about my conversation with a friend about the rentals he has.  I had wanted to know if there was something I was missing in my assessment of such an undertaking compared to investing in a Vanguard fund.

@FLBiker Our asset allocations are primarily total market funds (which ones are dependent on what's available in the 401k accounts, Vanguard otherwise), with smatterings of individual stocks.

@muskrat Definitely DINK over here.  We've done a lot of travel since the beginning of 2022, so we are being mindful of life experiences.  On the plus side, nobody that sees me thinks I'm anywhere near 50 unless I haven't dyed my hair; and then they think I look like the Witcher. ;)  I have reasonable hopes to be at least as active as my 82 year old neighbor; we take him rock climbing with us sometimes.

Yes same. I missed this thread first time around so I'm just reading it now. I really appreciate the shared insight as well.

@lhamo I was hoping you could elaborate on your comment more
Quote
do not underestimate the power a good taxable brokerage account can have in fueling low-tax FIRE due to the currently low capital gains rate -- had I understood this better a few years ago I probably would have had a MUCH larger stash than I currently do.

I don't qualify for any sweet pre-tax accounts right now and would love to get a better understanding of the benefits of taxable brokerages at this point in the game. 

lhamo

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2024, 07:54:25 AM »
@lhamo I was hoping you could elaborate on your comment more
Quote
do not underestimate the power a good taxable brokerage account can have in fueling low-tax FIRE due to the currently low capital gains rate -- had I understood this better a few years ago I probably would have had a MUCH larger stash than I currently do.

I don't qualify for any sweet pre-tax accounts right now and would love to get a better understanding of the benefits of taxable brokerages at this point in the game.

At the moment, as I bridge the last 3.5 or so years before I can more easily tap into my retirement accounts, I am primarily living off of my share of the non-retirement savings/investments from my marriage and a little chunk of money I inherited from my mom.  For the first time this year I started cashing out some money that was invested.  I have taken out quite a big chunk to fund renovations on my house.  Around 50k of that is capital gains.  I have only modest dividend/interest income, no income from wages -- probably under 10k.  All of that is tax free because I am filing Head of Household with a standard deduction of $29,100 as head of household (I have a college age daughter). 

While I was still married, I did not invest a lot of the cash we had for a variety of reasons.  If I had put more of that money in the market it probably would have been double or triple what we had when we split.  And then I would have had many more years of those 40-50k of gains (not to mention the principal) to tap tax free while I let the retirement funds grow.

I guess the downside if you are still working/earning a salary is that more of your cap gains would be taxable if you harvest them, plus you also most likely will be paying tax on any dividends your holdings throw off -- you can avoid the latter by investing in something like FZROX that doesn't pay a ton of dividends.  But if this is a strategy for saving for FIRE, without substantial other income afterwards, then you are golden.  In my head I knew this was possible (Go Curry Cracker has several posts about how they used low LTCG rates to their advantage), but this year is the first time I have seen how it works in practice.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Reader Case Study - I need advice, or maybe reassurance, idk
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2024, 07:04:31 AM »
@lhamo I was hoping you could elaborate on your comment more
Quote
do not underestimate the power a good taxable brokerage account can have in fueling low-tax FIRE due to the currently low capital gains rate -- had I understood this better a few years ago I probably would have had a MUCH larger stash than I currently do.

I don't qualify for any sweet pre-tax accounts right now and would love to get a better understanding of the benefits of taxable brokerages at this point in the game.

At the moment, as I bridge the last 3.5 or so years before I can more easily tap into my retirement accounts, I am primarily living off of my share of the non-retirement savings/investments from my marriage and a little chunk of money I inherited from my mom.  For the first time this year I started cashing out some money that was invested.  I have taken out quite a big chunk to fund renovations on my house.  Around 50k of that is capital gains.  I have only modest dividend/interest income, no income from wages -- probably under 10k.  All of that is tax free because I am filing Head of Household with a standard deduction of $29,100 as head of household (I have a college age daughter). 

While I was still married, I did not invest a lot of the cash we had for a variety of reasons.  If I had put more of that money in the market it probably would have been double or triple what we had when we split.  And then I would have had many more years of those 40-50k of gains (not to mention the principal) to tap tax free while I let the retirement funds grow.

I guess the downside if you are still working/earning a salary is that more of your cap gains would be taxable if you harvest them, plus you also most likely will be paying tax on any dividends your holdings throw off -- you can avoid the latter by investing in something like FZROX that doesn't pay a ton of dividends.  But if this is a strategy for saving for FIRE, without substantial other income afterwards, then you are golden.  In my head I knew this was possible (Go Curry Cracker has several posts about how they used low LTCG rates to their advantage), but this year is the first time I have seen how it works in practice.

Thank you this is really helpful! I haven't read too much of Go Curry Cracker's blog so I'll check out those specific posts. I am able to pull from two of my 403B pre-tax accounts at any time (even though I'm under 55), I just don't want to or have to at the moment so I'll need to evaluate this more. My partner is going to be working for 10 more years (might change his mind but it would make him pension eligible and he seems to likes that goal at the moment) and I'll be working at least part-time during most of the next 10 years, but we may still need to pull a little from taxable to bridge any gaps due to our new location (HCOL). In 10 years we'll still be "early retired" though just barely and on the older edge of it.