Is it good enough to FIRE?

[helloyou]

Hello

I'm 37 single guy and getting tired to work. My initial plan was to give myself 10 years to fire and be retired 2025. And by then I should be close to £1M which would give me a good level of safety.

However, as time pass I feel like I'm spending all my youth working and I'd like to travel and enjoy while I still can do that and not wait for my 50's to do things because then it wouldn't as easy.

Current situation:
Monthly saving: £5k
Monthly expense: £1.5k
Net worth: £600k all in stock (i do not own property)
Potential additional net worth: about £80k of invested money in loans that are in administrations and should hopefully come back within 1-2 years when they sell the assets. So the total net worth could theoritically go up to £680k.

So I was thinking to go fire now.. travel and enjoy my life.

My expenses are at a £1.5-2k/month so it covers the 25x amount and the 4% rules. And I believe there should be some recovery on my previous loans so hopefully my net worth is closer to £700k than £600k.

So I can keep working for like a year or 2 to bump my total net worth (+£60k saved/year) but I feel like maybe I have enough to move to FIRE. And in all likelihood I may also work a bit or make some money in a way or another while being FIRED. I definitely won't be sitting all day long on the beach doing nothing.

So even though it doesn't have a total margin of safety (an ideally 40x expense would be better), I feel its enough to move out from work.

The main issue is that I'm probably at my best years to make money with a good track record and if I quit now it'll be much harder to find an equivalent job and salary. So if for some reasons I have to go back to work after having stopped few years in all likelihood I would earn at most half of my current salary and very likely to be able to save maybe only £2k/month instead of a £5k. So it would be 2.5x as hard to save money and contribute to fire if my FIRE failed and I have to come back to save again for waaay longer... (I work in UX design and the field is changing very fast. Even if I take just 1 year gap the industry would evolve so much that I won't be competitive anymore)


But still I feel it may worth the risk, and that I only have 1 life, and maybe then I'll find an adventure where I feel way more fulfilled and might earn enough to cover any gap in earning if  any problem were to arise.


Any thought or experience toward  this case? Would be great to hear about some FIRED people in similar situation

[MrThatsDifferent]

If you FIREd tomorrow, what would your life look like?

[helloyou]

If you FIREd tomorrow, what would your life look like?

I think if it was just tomorrow I'd just be stuck home because of COVID. However, I imagine travelling around the world and staying in Airbnb and hostel in Eastern europe / Asia / South america :)

[bbqbonelesswing]

The main issue is that I'm probably at my best years to make money with a good track record and if I quit now it'll be much harder to find an equivalent job and salary. So if for some reasons I have to go back to work after having stopped few years in all likelihood I would earn at most half of my current salary and very likely to be able to save maybe only £2k/month instead of a £5k. So it would be 2.5x as hard to save money and contribute to fire if my FIRE failed and I have to come back to save again for waaay longer... (I work in UX design and the field is changing very fast. Even if I take just 1 year gap the industry would evolve so much that I won't be competitive anymore)

I think we often overestimate how hard it will be to get back to work at a comparable salary. UX will still be important in the near future, no? If you're 37, I imagine you have enough experience in the field that if you needed to go back to work, you could get up to speed relatively quickly. Or, shift into a similar role.

[helloyou]

The main issue is that I'm probably at my best years to make money with a good track record and if I quit now it'll be much harder to find an equivalent job and salary. So if for some reasons I have to go back to work after having stopped few years in all likelihood I would earn at most half of my current salary and very likely to be able to save maybe only £2k/month instead of a £5k. So it would be 2.5x as hard to save money and contribute to fire if my FIRE failed and I have to come back to save again for waaay longer... (I work in UX design and the field is changing very fast. Even if I take just 1 year gap the industry would evolve so much that I won't be competitive anymore)

I think we often overestimate how hard it will be to get back to work at a comparable salary. UX will still be important in the near future, no? If you're 37, I imagine you have enough experience in the field that if you needed to go back to work, you could get up to speed relatively quickly. Or, shift into a similar role.

Yea it'll remain important but its a very competitive field. Wages are usually much lower than what I get now. I'm not sure I'll manage to get an equivalent wage after a few year break. I could probably get an average or a bit lower wage which would be ok, but it definitely won't allow me to save as fast as now

[Morning Glory]

Can you look into part time work in your field? Then you could keep your skills current, earn enough to live on, and let the stash grow on its own while you have more time to travel. That is my plan, although I'm not as close to the finish line as you are.

[helloyou]

Can you look into part time work in your field? Then you could keep your skills current, earn enough to live on, and let the stash grow on its own while you have more time to travel. That is my plan, although I'm not as close to the finish line as you are.

Not really. One of the key expectations of my job is stakeholder management and workshops. So I can't see how I could manage these if I were in the other side of the world or on the beach. I could take on some remote part-time role but these are low pay job and I'd rather work a little bit longer in my position to save up instead of dragging down forever with a 50-70% pay cut.

[Nateson]

My friend.

I encourage you to FIRE. Life is short. Your stash is not going to 0 overnight, so if it drops below what you deem reasonable, you will have more than ample time to make savings/earnings adjustments. I think it's common in these forums to try and perfectly plan out your financial life, but you will still have both good and bad surprises in the future. You've done an incredible job up to this point, and you are intelligent enough with money to understand and fix any significant saving/spending disparity.

You have an excellent, possibly self-sustaining stash. Don't let the quest for perfection overwhelm you. It's okay to live the life you want. Best of luck.

[ontheway2]

Can you look into part time work in your field? Then you could keep your skills current, earn enough to live on, and let the stash grow on its own while you have more time to travel. That is my plan, although I'm not as close to the finish line as you are.

Not really. One of the key expectations of my job is stakeholder management and workshops. So I can't see how I could manage these if I were in the other side of the world or on the beach. I could take on some remote part-time role but these are low pay job and I'd rather work a little bit longer in my position to save up instead of dragging down forever with a 50-70% pay cut.

If you are able to FIRE now (25x saved) and currently live on 23% of your salary, why would 30-50% of your pay drag FIRE forever? You could cover all of your expenses and potentially save more then completely quit whenever you are comfortable while your stash had continued to grow. I don't see much travel for awhile anyways.

Does your anticipated spend include FIRE travel, or is it current spend?

[helloyou]

My friend.

I encourage you to FIRE. Life is short. Your stash is not going to 0 overnight, so if it drops below what you deem reasonable, you will have more than ample time to make savings/earnings adjustments. I think it's common in these forums to try and perfectly plan out your financial life, but you will still have both good and bad surprises in the future. You've done an incredible job up to this point, and you are intelligent enough with money to understand and fix any significant saving/spending disparity.

You have an excellent, possibly self-sustaining stash. Don't let the quest for perfection overwhelm you. It's okay to live the life you want. Best of luck.

Yes i'm thinking to do it. Thanks :)

Are you fire on 25x only like me?

[helloyou]

Can you look into part time work in your field? Then you could keep your skills current, earn enough to live on, and let the stash grow on its own while you have more time to travel. That is my plan, although I'm not as close to the finish line as you are.

Not really. One of the key expectations of my job is stakeholder management and workshops. So I can't see how I could manage these if I were in the other side of the world or on the beach. I could take on some remote part-time role but these are low pay job and I'd rather work a little bit longer in my position to save up instead of dragging down forever with a 50-70% pay cut.

If you are able to FIRE now (25x saved) and currently live on 23% of your salary, why would 30-50% of your pay drag FIRE forever? You could cover all of your expenses and potentially save more then completely quit whenever you are comfortable while your stash had continued to grow. I don't see much travel for awhile anyways.

Does your anticipated spend include FIRE travel, or is it current spend?

It just doesn't make sense for me to work for 30% of what I could earn. I've done it once at half wage because I didn't have job at that time and I felt miserable and left after 1 months.

Imagine working and doing the same thing for someone and only earning 30% of your current wage? It just felt like a waste of time and I'd rather look for job for 8 months and only work 4 months than working a whole year to only get what I'd normally get in 4 months.

If I were to earn 30% of my current salary, it would be to do something I really want, not to stash cash. And in my field I regularly see people working 6 months and coming back 6 months for work. That could be a possibility as well. But discounted 70% is not something I'd ever want to do.

[ontheway2]

Can you look into part time work in your field? Then you could keep your skills current, earn enough to live on, and let the stash grow on its own while you have more time to travel. That is my plan, although I'm not as close to the finish line as you are.

Not really. One of the key expectations of my job is stakeholder management and workshops. So I can't see how I could manage these if I were in the other side of the world or on the beach. I could take on some remote part-time role but these are low pay job and I'd rather work a little bit longer in my position to save up instead of dragging down forever with a 50-70% pay cut.

If you are able to FIRE now (25x saved) and currently live on 23% of your salary, why would 30-50% of your pay drag FIRE forever? You could cover all of your expenses and potentially save more then completely quit whenever you are comfortable while your stash had continued to grow. I don't see much travel for awhile anyways.

Does your anticipated spend include FIRE travel, or is it current spend?

It just doesn't make sense for me to work for 30% of what I could earn. I've done it once at half wage because I didn't have job at that time and I felt miserable and left after 1 months.

Imagine working and doing the same thing for someone and only earning 30% of your current wage? It just felt like a waste of time and I'd rather look for job for 8 months and only work 4 months than working a whole year to only get what I'd normally get in 4 months.

If I were to earn 30% of my current salary, it would be to do something I really want, not to stash cash. And in my field I regularly see people working 6 months and coming back 6 months for work. That could be a possibility as well. But discounted 70% is not something I'd ever want to do.

So, I definitely did not mean to work full time for 30% of your pay. As you are getting tired of work and want more time to travel, I figured a 70% pay cut would be either only working some of the months or working something part time like 2 days/week. With COVID, travel is much more difficult so it might allow you time to cultivate a life outside of work until extensive travel is feasible at which time you could drop down the rest of the way and not have touched your nest egg.

[helloyou]

Can you look into part time work in your field? Then you could keep your skills current, earn enough to live on, and let the stash grow on its own while you have more time to travel. That is my plan, although I'm not as close to the finish line as you are.

Not really. One of the key expectations of my job is stakeholder management and workshops. So I can't see how I could manage these if I were in the other side of the world or on the beach. I could take on some remote part-time role but these are low pay job and I'd rather work a little bit longer in my position to save up instead of dragging down forever with a 50-70% pay cut.

If you are able to FIRE now (25x saved) and currently live on 23% of your salary, why would 30-50% of your pay drag FIRE forever? You could cover all of your expenses and potentially save more then completely quit whenever you are comfortable while your stash had continued to grow. I don't see much travel for awhile anyways.

Does your anticipated spend include FIRE travel, or is it current spend?

It just doesn't make sense for me to work for 30% of what I could earn. I've done it once at half wage because I didn't have job at that time and I felt miserable and left after 1 months.

Imagine working and doing the same thing for someone and only earning 30% of your current wage? It just felt like a waste of time and I'd rather look for job for 8 months and only work 4 months than working a whole year to only get what I'd normally get in 4 months.

If I were to earn 30% of my current salary, it would be to do something I really want, not to stash cash. And in my field I regularly see people working 6 months and coming back 6 months for work. That could be a possibility as well. But discounted 70% is not something I'd ever want to do.

So, I definitely did not mean to work full time for 30% of your pay. As you are getting tired of work and want more time to travel, I figured a 70% pay cut would be either only working some of the months or working something part time like 2 days/week. With COVID, travel is much more difficult so it might allow you time to cultivate a life outside of work until extensive travel is feasible at which time you could drop down the rest of the way and not have touched your nest egg.

Its a 70% pay cut on a full time equivalent. If I work part time like 2 days a week I'd earn like 15% of my current salary. Its just a waste of time...

[Morning Glory]

I was suggesting 30% of the hours for 30% of the pay. I understand this arrangement might not be available in all industries. I don't see how this would be going backwards.

[helloyou]

I was suggesting 30% of the hours for 30% of the pay. I understand this arrangement might not be available in all industries. I don't see how this would be going backwards.

These part time options are available in my field but are paid 50-70% less on full time basis.

So I shall say a 30% time for 30% pay isn't available in my field because they need people who are integrated with the team and can manage workshops and stakeholders...

[slappy]

1) If you are 37 and plan to FIRE in 5 years, that is 42, not 50's
2) 40's - 50's is not old and decrepit. If you can't do things like travel in that age bracket, you probably have bigger issues than FIRE.


Sounds like you need to find some balance. There's a lot of space between not doing anything until your 50's and FIREing immediately.

[helloyou]

1) If you are 37 and plan to FIRE in 5 years, that is 42, not 50's
2) 40's - 50's is not old and decrepit. If you can't do things like travel in that age bracket, you probably have bigger issues than FIRE.


Sounds like you need to find some balance. There's a lot of space between not doing anything until your 50's and FIREing immediately.

Yes I agree with you but I am just wondering if its enough to fire?

I'm just eager to be free.

Is the amount too low? If I could just fly away and be free from the corporate world now I'd do it without blinking an eye 😅

[slappy]

1) If you are 37 and plan to FIRE in 5 years, that is 42, not 50's
2) 40's - 50's is not old and decrepit. If you can't do things like travel in that age bracket, you probably have bigger issues than FIRE.


Sounds like you need to find some balance. There's a lot of space between not doing anything until your 50's and FIREing immediately.

Yes I agree with you but I am just wondering if its enough to fire?

I'm just eager to be free.

Is the amount too low? If I could just fly away and be free from the corporate world now I'd do it without blinking an eye 😅

But why? Why not take a break or take a part time job or something other than 100% FIRE? It doesn't have to be a job in your field at way less pay, like you were describing earlier. It could be any part time job that gives flexibility and pays your bills. Or even half of your bills, which would cut your withdrawal rate in half. It could even be seasonal. Go do your travel or whatever you want to do and find some seasonal work that you can make some money at. It could be working one more year until that loan you mentioned comes back to you. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

It's up to you to decide if the amount is to low. For me, yes it would be. It's right at the 4% rule, which is of course not a rule so much as a guideline, especially for early retirees. It doesn't give much flexibility. Some people don't worry about that. Some people do. Personally my plan is as I mentioned above. Get to the 25x and do something part time that either covers all or most of my expenses. I will figure that out when the time comes I guess, but I personally would not FIRE at exactly 25x expenses. I'm sure there are others would disagree, which is why I said its up to decide.

[helloyou]

1) If you are 37 and plan to FIRE in 5 years, that is 42, not 50's
2) 40's - 50's is not old and decrepit. If you can't do things like travel in that age bracket, you probably have bigger issues than FIRE.


Sounds like you need to find some balance. There's a lot of space between not doing anything until your 50's and FIREing immediately.

Yes I agree with you but I am just wondering if its enough to fire?

I'm just eager to be free.

Is the amount too low? If I could just fly away and be free from the corporate world now I'd do it without blinking an eye 😅

But why? Why not take a break or take a part time job or something other than 100% FIRE? It doesn't have to be a job in your field at way less pay, like you were describing earlier. It could be any part time job that gives flexibility and pays your bills. Or even half of your bills, which would cut your withdrawal rate in half. It could even be seasonal. Go do your travel or whatever you want to do and find some seasonal work that you can make some money at. It could be working one more year until that loan you mentioned comes back to you. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

It's up to you to decide if the amount is to low. For me, yes it would be. It's right at the 4% rule, which is of course not a rule so much as a guideline, especially for early retirees. It doesn't give much flexibility. Some people don't worry about that. Some people do. Personally my plan is as I mentioned above. Get to the 25x and do something part time that either covers all or most of my expenses. I will figure that out when the time comes I guess, but I personally would not FIRE at exactly 25x expenses. I'm sure there are others would disagree, which is why I said its up to decide.

Yeah but I can't see what job I could do that would pay my current income. I can earn before tax about £7-10k/month. So really if I got to choose between a part time job while I travel making maybe £1-2k/month at best, it's really not worth it.

As said before, I'd rather stay longer because working 1 year in my current job would give me the equivalent saving of 5 years in a part time jobs .

In your case, if you got to choose between working 5 years in a part-time job earning maybe $15/h or working 1-year full time for $80/h which one would you choose? For me time is one of the most previous thing I have and that I can't buy, so I'd never do that unless I'm really in the last straw.


The only way to change my mind would be if somehow I could find remote part-time job paying $50+/h? I however don't think they are easy to find without specific qualifications so it doesn't seem to have any way around this. Unless you have good suggestions I didn't think of :)

[slappy]

1) If you are 37 and plan to FIRE in 5 years, that is 42, not 50's
2) 40's - 50's is not old and decrepit. If you can't do things like travel in that age bracket, you probably have bigger issues than FIRE.


Sounds like you need to find some balance. There's a lot of space between not doing anything until your 50's and FIREing immediately.

Yes I agree with you but I am just wondering if its enough to fire?

I'm just eager to be free.

Is the amount too low? If I could just fly away and be free from the corporate world now I'd do it without blinking an eye 😅

But why? Why not take a break or take a part time job or something other than 100% FIRE? It doesn't have to be a job in your field at way less pay, like you were describing earlier. It could be any part time job that gives flexibility and pays your bills. Or even half of your bills, which would cut your withdrawal rate in half. It could even be seasonal. Go do your travel or whatever you want to do and find some seasonal work that you can make some money at. It could be working one more year until that loan you mentioned comes back to you. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

It's up to you to decide if the amount is to low. For me, yes it would be. It's right at the 4% rule, which is of course not a rule so much as a guideline, especially for early retirees. It doesn't give much flexibility. Some people don't worry about that. Some people do. Personally my plan is as I mentioned above. Get to the 25x and do something part time that either covers all or most of my expenses. I will figure that out when the time comes I guess, but I personally would not FIRE at exactly 25x expenses. I'm sure there are others would disagree, which is why I said its up to decide.

Yeah but I can't see what job I could do that would pay my current income. I can earn before tax about £7-10k/month. So really if I got to choose between a part time job while I travel making maybe £1-2k/month at best, it's really not worth it.

As said before, I'd rather stay longer because working 1 year in my current job would give me the equivalent saving of 5 years in a part time jobs .

In your case, if you got to choose between working 5 years in a part-time job earning maybe $15/h or working 1-year full time for $80/h which one would you choose? For me time is one of the most previous thing I have and that I can't buy, so I'd never do that unless I'm really in the last straw.


The only way to change my mind would be if somehow I could find remote part-time job paying $50+/h? I however don't think they are easy to find without specific qualifications so it doesn't seem to have any way around this. Unless you have good suggestions I didn't think of :)

I feel like you are contradicting yourself. You say you'd rather stay one more year at full time than work part time for five years, but then you also say time is the most precious thing and you want to FIRE now. What I'm trying to say is that you can do both. You can work part time and do all the traveling/fun stuff that you want, while not drawing from the portfolio. It doesn't matter how much you make as a part time worker, or how much you are "worth". All that matters is that you are enjoying life and your bills are paid. Right? Or is there something I'm missing?

[helloyou]

If I work just to pay my bills even if its while I'm travelling I'd say its a waste of time. I'd rather stay here a bit longer so that I don't have to deliver pizza or so some annoying small gigs.

The only reason I could work part time would be if:
- this would be a job I enjoy and would do IF I didn't need the money. So some charity job or maybe some start up but these wouldn't give me any cash
- or if the income would be close enough to my current job.

I'll asking myself why I didn't stay working for few more years if I had to do work just in order to preserve my savings.

And yes its a waste of time if its not a job I'd have done without receiving any money!

[LifeHappens]

OP you seem to be taking the position of never wanting to work again. That's fine, but you also seem to be uncomfortable FIREing on 25x your current spend. Basically, you're talking yourself into working One More Year (OMY).

I suspect people are getting confused because there are lots of people here who Lean FIRE ("retire" on a small budget) and leave themselves open to the possibility of earning income again. There are also people who FIRE on 25x a generous spend level, planning to never work again but able to cut back in years when the market is in a downturn. You're kind of a confusing mix of both sides of this. If you truly want to close the door on work forever, you may need to build yourself more of a safety margin.

[slappy]

If I work just to pay my bills even if its while I'm travelling I'd say its a waste of time. I'd rather stay here a bit longer so that I don't have to deliver pizza or so some annoying small gigs.

The only reason I could work part time would be if:
- this would be a job I enjoy and would do IF I didn't need the money. So some charity job or maybe some start up but these wouldn't give me any cash
- or if the income would be close enough to my current job.

I'll asking myself why I didn't stay working for few more years if I had to do work just in order to preserve my savings.

And yes its a waste of time if its not a job I'd have done without receiving any money!

From what I see, you are answering your own question. If you are not willing to do any paid work, then it doesn't make sense to FIRE at this time. At least that's my perspective from the outside.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

If I work just to pay my bills even if its while I'm travelling I'd say its a waste of time. I'd rather stay here a bit longer so that I don't have to deliver pizza or so some annoying small gigs.

The only reason I could work part time would be if:
- this would be a job I enjoy and would do IF I didn't need the money. So some charity job or maybe some start up but these wouldn't give me any cash
- or if the income would be close enough to my current job.

I'll asking myself why I didn't stay working for few more years if I had to do work just in order to preserve my savings.

And yes its a waste of time if its not a job I'd have done without receiving any money!

From what I see, you are answering your own question. If you are not willing to do any paid work, then it doesn't make sense to FIRE at this time. At least that's my perspective from the outside.

^This

Ultimately only you can determine your risk tolerance and desire to never work again. If freedom is very very high on your priority, then you probably can do it, but you should do it knowing that you will likely need to cut back if things go down, especially early on, and/or work again in small jobs at certain times if things tank. If not doing those things is a higher priority than freedom right now, then stay at work until you're 26,27, 28, 30x, whatever the case may be. Each one more year makes it less likely you'll have to work, but it's also a guarantee that you will be working for each year in the here and now.

[helloyou]

Yes thanks guy. I think what I really need is story or experience of fired people on 25x expense and if it was enough or not for them.

Otherwise its just speculative. I see load of fire on this forum with millions of $$. Although my stash converted to usd could theoritically be $750-850k and that my expense are low (£1500/month and maybe I could drop it to $1500 if needs to be), it's not yet a million.

Are there members in this forum with similar situation? Ideally that have stopped working and net worth around $750k with no extra benefit (i see many that have additional rental not included in the net worth or getting some form of gov benefit such as pension or allocated housing)

[never give up]

Well congrats on being in such a good position. I can appreciate the mind games. I am desperate to get out of the corporate world myself but am similarly appreciative of what another couple of years full time work will do for me. Having worked so hard to get my career to this point it is quite a thing to give up.

Do you ever plan on buying a property? How much could you cut back on your budget? There is a big difference between having 25X expenses that can only be cut back 5% versus 30%.

I think you are probably a prime candidate for a year out to go travelling (once Coronavirus settles down). Relax, unwind and develop a plan for career 2.0 that can provide a bit more security to your numbers when you return.

Also don’t underestimate the power of part time work. If you can cover your expenses so you aren’t drawing on a 25X stash, then it won’t stay at 25X for long. Let the stash work for you to provide the extra safety.

I wouldn’t be FIREing myself in your position but that doesn’t mean you have to slog on full time either. You have flexibility and options.

[helloyou]

Well congrats on being in such a good position. I can appreciate the mind games. I am desperate to get out of the corporate world myself but am similarly appreciative of what another couple of years full time work will do for me. Having worked so hard to get my career to this point it is quite a thing to give up.

Do you ever plan on buying a property? How much could you cut back on your budget? There is a big difference between having 25X expenses that can only be cut back 5% versus 30%.

I think you are probably a prime candidate for a year out to go travelling (once Coronavirus settles down). Relax, unwind and develop a plan for career 2.0 that can provide a bit more security to your numbers when you return.

Also don’t underestimate the power of part time work. If you can cover your expenses so you aren’t drawing on a 25X stash, then it won’t stay at 25X for long. Let the stash work for you to provide the extra safety.

I wouldn’t be FIREing myself in your position but that doesn’t mean you have to slog on full time either. You have flexibility and options.

I'm ready to buy a property (or any asset) if the numbers stack up. My dream would be to get again the property price from 2012 (I almost bought at that time in London) and then I could buy a house for half the current price. Price really doubled in many part of London since 2012....

At the moment, properties price look very inflated and I can't see myself justifying a purchase. The way I see it is to compare against rental cost, and if it's about the same it's not worth buying. If the price of the mortgage is much cheaper than rental cost, then if I wanted to travel I could also rent the house out and get some income. But at the moment it's not the case.

In term of budget, I can probably live on £1300/month. I have friend who traveled with less and many other friends on minimum wage living with this in London. So I might even be able to cut a bit more if I wanted!

At that level, I'm actually already at the 40X mark. And I don't mind consuming some of my stashes as the yearly spending is fairly low. I can't see much harm drawing down 3-4% of my portfolio yearly as I expect it to grow faster.


And in all honesty, I really don't want to do some gigs just to pay the bills but nothing prevents me to do some paid work that I like if I were to find some. It's the freedom that I value most. I'm even thinking to become a Youtuber and share my discovery with the world and get some small ads revenue? ahah. But of course I won't expect this to give any significant income.


How much would you save until you FIRE? I'm thinking that even if, in the worse case, I can't manage to grow my portfolio, I could still live from it for 20-30 years or so. By then I'd be close to retirement age and if I got no money left I'd just get benefit like some of my friends who never work but still live decently!


I'm amazed how much benefit people can get when they have no money. I have a friend living in a studio flat in London costing £1300/month. She doesn't have a job and get housing benefit + job benefit and is happy living this way. I, who work my ass off, wouldn't get such a place! How unfair is that! I'd jealous of her if I didn't have the privilege to travel wherever I want once I'm set free!

[never give up]

At your age I’d want to aim for 3% with a paid off house, but I’m quite cautious. I agree anything part time should ideally be fun.

[ysette9]

I think you started to get at the heart of FIRE: the freedom to do whatever you want, and if that happens to be some activities that bring in some income, then so much the better. I keep hearing over and over that the skill set that gets you to FI at a young age often means that you find yourself earning money later down the line even if that was never your plan.

It sounds like you are uncertain and any reassurance from the crowd here on what to do. Ultimately you have to decide for yourself what you are comfortable with. Personally I quit work in March of this year after we reached our number in November of last year. My husband is working one more year for Reasons, so it is less scary than if we were both pulling the plug at the same time. Our number is actually less than 25x because I used cFIREsim instead to get a more detailed model of our financial picture. I included social security (won’t you get something similar in old age from the government?), a small pension I will get, and I also modèled in a shifting asset allocation over time (reverse equity glide path, otherwise known as a “bond tent”), and some flexibility in our spending.

I found it really helpful to model our situation and adjust various parameters to see how they impact success probabilities. I feel I understand better now where the risks are and what we can do to mitigate them. For example, being willing to cut your spending by 10% in a down market adds a good margin of safety. Similarly retiring with 40% bonds and ramping back up to 95% stocks over a ten-year period after retirement adds a good margin of safety.

Finally, I’d recommend a glass of wine and a good quiet period to reflect on what you really want to do with your life once you are no longer working. Make sure the budget you set for yourself reflects what you want to do. Personally we have talked about the idea of a year-long sabbatical to test drive FIRE and make sure we estimated our expenses correctly. Things are less scary if you can think of it as a temporary thing and not necessarily what the rest of your life will be.

[elaine amj]

One thing to consider as a single 37yr old male thinking about FIRE is what if you meet someone and your circumstances change? What if this causes your expenses to go up?

As a married woman, I also considered scenarios if anything happened to my DH, etc etc. Of course it is impossible to plan for everything but it is worth taking some time to think through possible scenarios and consider how you feel about the risks of each one and how you would adapt.

Looking at your plain numbers, especially your bare bones numbers, you're in a pretty good position IMO.

I FIREd at 39 with a somewhat lean FIRE scenario. It's been a year and a half and we still feel good about it.

However, 7 months ago, my father had a nasty fall and ended up with a very serious traumatic brain injury. He was in the hospital for over 2 months and in a private rehab since and didn't have enough to pay for his surgery and care. Long story short, it was all very expensive and thankfully my wealthy aunt stepped in to save the day.
 
My FIRE budget just doesn't have this kind of loose change so I decided I was (and still am) fully prepared to go hunt for work, even crappy paying work if I ever need to contribute to his care. (I have offered but it's not needed yet).

I did actually consider this scenario before I FIREd and decided to take the risk of not including this in my FIRE budget. But I did know then (and reconfirmed it to myself when the worst did happen) the steps I was willing to take in the scenario.

Don't get me wrong - I sincerely hope I never have to return to full time work. But I am glad I stopped my endless One More Year-ing by considering a variety of scenarios,  assessing the risks, and deciding what I would be willing to do. This all helped me decide on a FIRE number that felt right (which ended up higher than I originally planned).

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk

[waltworks]

Sometimes I wonder about the people who NEVER want to work again in any capacity. I mean, you might really hate your current job. I get that. But there is a whole universe of stuff you can do for money that is actually *fun*. You can bartend part time and chat up interesting people. You can be a lifeguard, or a personal trainer, or consult/mentor within your industry. You can tutor kids (or adults). You can monetize your hobbies/passions in many cases. I could go on and on.

You can do a lot of those things with minimal upfront cost and the training you already have, part time, as you want to. No, you won't make what you do at your terrible job - but you're also probably going to have *fun*.

I mean, I've had a lot of weird jobs over the years. I wonder sometimes if people who never want to work again have only really had their current job, and never experienced anything else. A part-time job doesn't have to be onerous - and if it is? Guess what, you're FIRE, you freaking quit and do something else (or not).

Even a few thousand dollars a year is a HUGE safety net for a lean FIRE lifestyle such as proposed by the OP.

-W

[helloyou]

I've always considered moving out of london. But so far most of my contract were here so I've always been here.

I'd of course move and spend less obviously if I can. But more important than anything else is that I want to be in a place where I'm happy.

I don't see a problem living in a HCOL area if I got load of friends and social activities there. So the city cost of living is not a key criteria. And I manage to be on low spending in london so thats great as well.

And really, I work in a great field and do nice projects. The working hours are good, there is a good work/life balance, colleagues are fun and money is good.

But nothing is worth freedom and ability to work on stuff for myself and just be on holiday and wake up as I please.

So yeah, maybe if I just FIRE now its good enough.


My current calculation is:
- my current FIRE status allows me a monthly spending of £1500
- each additional year I work would increase my monthly spending by £150
- so I could work 2.5 years more to get to £2000/month budget and have more margin to spend....

But really time is so important and I'm still young now and don't want to travel the world when I'm full of white hairs (i'm having more and more by the years) to do that!

So maybe it's time to fly off!!

[Rdy2Fire]

I would say go for it. If you feel comfortable with your numbers and that you can do it then why not go out and enjoy life. I mean who knows how long we each have.

With that said; given travel right now is pretty tough (I've tried), I would probably keep working, banking as much as you can, until COVID eases some more. During that time you should probably consider where you want to live. As others mentioned London is probably not ideal. I to live in a HCOL area and although I enjoy where I live, feel I really should move; unfortunately I am not sure where.

Anyway good luck with your choices

[helloyou]

I would say go for it. If you feel comfortable with your numbers and that you can do it then why not go out and enjoy life. I mean who knows how long we each have.

With that said; given travel right now is pretty tough (I've tried), I would probably keep working, banking as much as you can, until COVID eases some more. During that time you should probably consider where you want to live. As others mentioned London is probably not ideal. I to live in a HCOL area and although I enjoy where I live, feel I really should move; unfortunately I am not sure where.

Anyway good luck with your choices

Yeah make sense. I was thinking about that as well. I'm currently on contract until september. And I can either look for another one (usually need a few weeks to pitch for new work) or just go away.

I wonder if it would worth the effort to work hard to secure new contract during this pandemic time, and I may just travel around.

I got load of stuff to sell to get rid of my stuff actually and my tax situation needs sorting out. So this would take some time as well

[Rdy2Fire]

I would say go for it. If you feel comfortable with your numbers and that you can do it then why not go out and enjoy life. I mean who knows how long we each have.

With that said; given travel right now is pretty tough (I've tried), I would probably keep working, banking as much as you can, until COVID eases some more. During that time you should probably consider where you want to live. As others mentioned London is probably not ideal. I to live in a HCOL area and although I enjoy where I live, feel I really should move; unfortunately I am not sure where.

Anyway good luck with your choices

Yeah make sense. I was thinking about that as well. I'm currently on contract until september. And I can either look for another one (usually need a few weeks to pitch for new work) or just go away.

I wonder if it would worth the effort to work hard to secure new contract during this pandemic time, and I may just travel around.

I got load of stuff to sell to get rid of my stuff actually and my tax situation needs sorting out. So this would take some time as well

Well I'd say you can always secure another contract and then decide not to take it or try and secure one and if you don't then life has made a decision for you :)

[helloyou]

Yeah I think life would make the decision for me to stop working if:
- the pandemic ease and I can travel around
- there's no work around due to pandemic in my field


And the opposite would also be true if:
- there's a mega crash and my portfolio drop by 50% by which I'd have to grow it back to sustainable level.

That last scenario I hope would never happen 🥵🥵🥵

[ysette9]

What is your asset allocation? Hopefully you have some reasonable percentage of bonds to make a 50% drop in your overall portfolio not very likely.

[helloyou]

What is your asset allocation? Hopefully you have some reasonable percentage of bonds to make a 50% drop in your overall portfolio not very likely.

At the monent i m 70% stock and 30% cash. I decided to not touch bonds due to interest rate pushing them to ultra low.

And low term (20+ years) a 100% portfolio almost always perform better than bonds

[Paul der Krake]

Moving away from HCOL when you already live there just so you can FIRE is a mistake, in my opinion. HCOL areas are HCOL because loads of people want to live there. Sometimes it's super artificial reasons, like oil drilling jobs in Alaska or whatever. But most of the time in large metro areas it's because it's a nice place to live with tons of things to do. You're going to need tons of things to do with that free time.

That's not to say you should aim to FIRE in the most expensive location possible, or that everyone likes the hustle and bustle of a world class metropolis. Some prefer living quietly in the country, or in a smaller city, or a million other options, and that's fine too. Just be cognizant of what the HCOL gets you that's not just increased housing costs.

[helloyou]

Yeah my living cost is fairly low for London. I don't mind to be flatsharing as well if necessary because I'm single. I couldn't justify paying £1500/month on a flat here anyway even if I can afford it.

And when I'll travel, even on cheaper place where I could easily get my own flat I'll probably first share to know more people as well. Only when I decide to settle I'd be on my own, but by then I'd have found a cheaper place to live

[ysette9]

What is your asset allocation? Hopefully you have some reasonable percentage of bonds to make a 50% drop in your overall portfolio not very likely.

At the monent i m 70% stock and 30% cash. I decided to not touch bonds due to interest rate pushing them to ultra low.

And low term (20+ years) a 100% portfolio almost always perform better than bonds

Yes, the more stocks you have the better the long-term success rate. But short term you have sequence of returns risk. Personally we are doing a bond tent approach and are at 40% bonds now and will slowly increase our stocks back up over the first ten years of retirement. With this recent market craziness I found I was very happy to have that bond allocation to smooth the near-term ride.

[ysette9]

What is your asset allocation? Hopefully you have some reasonable percentage of bonds to make a 50% drop in your overall portfolio not very likely.

At the monent i m 70% stock and 30% cash. I decided to not touch bonds due to interest rate pushing them to ultra low.

And low term (20+ years) a 100% portfolio almost always perform better than bonds

Yes, the more stocks you have the better the long-term success rate. But short term you have sequence of returns risk. Personally we are doing a bond tent approach and are at 40% bonds now and will slowly increase our stocks back up over the first ten years of retirement. With this recent market craziness I found I was very happy to have that bond allocation to smooth the near-term ride.

[helloyou]

@spartana I'm not really worried about rent increase because it's so high today that people spend half or more of their wage in rent.

The rent in london has been stalling for years while house price doubled in 10 years and I understand why. They can't increase it anymore even on low supply because people can't pay for it! 😅

Maybe the only exception to this was one of my friend who absolutely wanted to live close to work and has chosen to share room (its like living in hostel!!) in a place closer to work. I think she aged 10 years in the space of few years and I believe most people won't accept that!!

So really I expect rent to increase with wage/inflation and not becoming even more inaffordable as we're on tipping point and I fully expect my portfolio to increase in line with inflation... so I should be good in that part.


If I were to start a family then yeah, I probably will have to move to a LCOL area like load of my colleagues who take a 2h train to commute to work. Its a very common sacrifice I see here in London that never made sense for me but as a FIRE person it would be ok.

And of course, I'll probably want to live on my own at some stage in the future and could be in a LCOL area when I don't need to commute to work. So should be good.

The main reason I'm quite central at the moment is because I need to commute to work. But without this variable I can just be anywhere and rent would be much lower.


@ysette9 which bonds do you have? I found them highly unattractive at the moment

[ysette9]

I have a split of total international bond market and total bond market (Vanguard). I’m in this for the long haul so my investment plan does not have the words “at the moment” in it at all. My investment plan is an asset allocation that should work with no reference to what current market conditions are with the exception of rebalancing.

[helloyou]

I have a split of total international bond market and total bond market (Vanguard). I’m in this for the long haul so my investment plan does not have the words “at the moment” in it at all. My investment plan is an asset allocation that should work with no reference to what current market conditions are with the exception of rebalancing.

I wasn't sure which code it was but in the uk we have the global index bond from vanguard as VAGP.

A quick check shown that:
- it crashed at the same time as the overall stock market. So it didn't provide protection. The same was happening to gold I bought to be protected but it crashed as well
- and the yield is something like 0.5% so not really worth it.

Have I missed something? How is your bond going to protect you if it crash with the entire stock market?

[ysette9]

Bonds are un correlated with stocks, not negatively correlated. So they move together or in the opposite direction, or one may move when the other does move at all, but in general bonds act to smooth the ride. That doesn’t mean that every time stocks go down bonds will necessarily go up, though it often happens. You can run simulations in cFIREsim (granted, it has US data because international data wasn’t available going as far back in the past), and see how having bonds in your portfolio smooths the ride. I think it is too short-sighted to look only at the last few months’ returns to make a decision on how to craft your portfolio for the next several decades.

[never give up]

Hi helloyou. A good article from a UK perspective.

https://monevator.com/how-to-protect-your-portfolio-in-a-crisis/

[helloyou]

Yes thanks for sharing guys. I have my own pre-conception about bonds and posted my opinion here:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-bond-really-protecting-your-portfolio-in-today's-environment/msg2665610