Author Topic: I Need Direction  (Read 5733 times)

makai

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I Need Direction
« on: April 16, 2017, 05:24:04 PM »
I'm in my early twenties and living in Chicago. My goal is to be able to stop working as soon as possible.
Earnings
I make 32k as a software dev. Around 24k after taxes.
Assets
There's 33k in my brokerage account. 2k in my IRA. Both Vanguard.
Expenses
1k per month. 800 for rent. The rest is utilities, transportation, and food.

My problem is deciding where to go from here. My lifestyle is minimalist. I don't plan on getting married. My two questions are about housing and relocation.

Housing
Should I buy, rent, or build?
Buy
I'm considering buying a 1BR condo in a smaller city. I like the idea of not having to pay rent. It will be a big investment but I think it would pay off in the long run.
Rent
This would make it easier to relocate and allow me to continue having my funds invested.
Build
I'm only throwing this out for the sake of completion. I have no idea how this works. I'm impressed by how efficient new houses are but I'm not sure if I have the means to build one.
Relocation
Taking these factors into account, what would be a good place to move to in the USA?

I have problems with winter depression, so I want to go somewhere with a warm climate. If I do intend to own a place, it should be somewhere with low property taxes. Attractions are not important to me.

I'm not the type that needs to visit places. I would like to have a grocery store nearby and a means of transportation. In other words, it should be a place developed enough that it has everything I need but not some overpriced sprawling metropolis.

What is the procedure for moving a long distance? It would be difficult to examine a property that's on the other side of the country. I could take a trip but then I'd have nowhere to stay while I'm there. It takes a long time to find a good place and it's unreasonable to keep having to take trips.

Frankies Girl

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 05:49:45 PM »
We'd need lots more information really to make any city suggestions. The only things you've expressed a preference for are: warmer climate, cheaper COL, and have reasonable transportation to things like grocery stores without it being a crazy big metro area. That pretty much describes thousands of cities and towns in the lower half of the United States.

What do you do for fun? Any food preferences, any interests in outdoors or music venues? What about hobbies? Any place you visited even as a child that you remember fondly? Do you even have any states that sound interesting that could help narrow it down a bit for us?

It makes sense to do basic research for the type of city you want to live in with all the specific requirements like reasonably developed, cheap property taxes, basic amenities, etc... also include research on decent neighborhoods within those cities (for some reason, there is always a "bad" side and "good" side and then the neutral "probably just fine" areas as well).

Narrow it down to 3-4 different places, then take some vacation time and go to those places. Stay in a reasonably priced hotel or Airbnb and go exploring. Talk to people there - the person you're renting from, the waitstaff in restaurants, go to the local library and ask the librarians. Tell them you're thinking of moving into the area and ask about crime rates, nice places to live, good or bad things they like/dislike about their town.

You could do this over a long weekend for each prospect and treat it like a regular vacation, but staying in or near the neighborhoods you're interested in.

In your case, I would not buy or build. Renting makes better sense when you're not sure about where exactly you really want to go, and if you move to a new city, there is no way of knowing for sure if it's "home" or not until you've lived there a while.

And I do hope your job has the potential for higher salary eventually. It seems quite low for someone that does what you do, so I'd want to address that aspect as well, because even with you being a minimalist, it will be a longer road ahead for you if you are interested in buying a permanent residence. You might want to check out the Early Retirement Extreme forum/site a well since that might help out with how to position yourself for early retirement even better than some of the advice you'll get here (MMM forum is definitely about being frugal, but ERE is like the master class and perfect for those that are into minimalism).

marty998

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 06:03:33 PM »
How do you pay 25% tax earning only $32k???

makai

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2017, 07:07:12 PM »
Quote
We'd need lots more information really to make any city suggestions. The only things you've expressed a preference for are: warmer climate, cheaper COL, and have reasonable transportation to things like grocery stores without it being a crazy big metro area. That pretty much describes thousands of cities and towns in the lower half of the United States.
Sorry about that. I had a bigger scale in mind. I was thinking about the kinds of cities that most people would recognize. MMM lives in Longmont. This can be described as Denver. I'm thinking along those lines. I guess a better way of asking would be "near which city should I look for a place to live".
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What do you do for fun? Any food preferences, any interests in outdoors or music venues? What about hobbies? Any place you visited even as a child that you remember fondly? Do you even have any states that sound interesting that could help narrow it down a bit for us?
My hobbies are all indoorsy. It's nice to be able to go for a walk or a bike ride but I'll be spending most of my time indoors. I was recommended Florida because it's sunny and popular for retirees. I went there on vacation when I was 10 and enjoyed it. Unfortunately, that doesn't translate to living experience.

Quote
It makes sense to do basic research for the type of city you want to live in with all the specific requirements like reasonably developed, cheap property taxes, basic amenities, etc... also include research on decent neighborhoods within those cities (for some reason, there is always a "bad" side and "good" side and then the neutral "probably just fine" areas as well).

Narrow it down to 3-4 different places, then take some vacation time and go to those places. Stay in a reasonably priced hotel or Airbnb and go exploring. Talk to people there - the person you're renting from, the waitstaff in restaurants, go to the local library and ask the librarians. Tell them you're thinking of moving into the area and ask about crime rates, nice places to live, good or bad things they like/dislike about their town.

You could do this over a long weekend for each prospect and treat it like a regular vacation, but staying in or near the neighborhoods you're interested in.
I guess I'll have to plan a trip then. That's not a big deal. I'm in need of a vacation.

Quote
In your case, I would not buy or build. Renting makes better sense when you're not sure about where exactly you really want to go, and if you move to a new city, there is no way of knowing for sure if it's "home" or not until you've lived there a while.
Good point. It would be a bad idea to get tied down to an area I'm not familiar with.

Quote
And I do hope your job has the potential for higher salary eventually. It seems quite low for someone that does what you do, so I'd want to address that aspect as well, because even with you being a minimalist, it will be a longer road ahead for you if you are interested in buying a permanent residence. You might want to check out the Early Retirement Extreme forum/site a well since that might help out with how to position yourself for early retirement even better than some of the advice you'll get here (MMM forum is definitely about being frugal, but ERE is like the master class and perfect for those that are into minimalism).
It took me years of sending out resumes to get this job. I was sending out resumes anywhere I could, even to basic minimum wage jobs. This company was the first to consider me. I somehow managed to get an office job paying much more than I thought I could get. I don't know why they picked me. Sometimes I think that they were just taking advantage of me because other developers with my skills would be more expensive. I've sent out resumes since working here but of course they are always ignored, even when I'm overqualified and don't ask for much. I have no clue what the secret is to finding a job. It's a miracle I have this one.

As for ERE, I've lurked through their forums before but never posted. I guess they would be more into that kind of stuff. I'll give it another visit.

Quote
How do you pay 25% tax earning only $32k???
That was an estimate. Taxes are 22%. Benefits are 7.5%. So 29.5% in total being deducted. I pay 50% for health insurance.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 08:40:42 PM by makai »

Scortius

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 11:04:01 AM »
Honestly, if you want to prioritize early retirement, then your #1 goal should be to get a market salary for your software development experience.  $32k for software is criminally underpaid.  Buff up your resume and go looking for jobs that pay better.  Given that you're willing to move, you have a ton of options.  At your stage in life, nothing else will get you to the finish line faster than increasing your earnings. With your experience, that should be relatively easy compared to most.

makai

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 05:26:47 PM »
Quote
Honestly, if you want to prioritize early retirement, then your #1 goal should be to get a market salary for your software development experience.  $32k for software is criminally underpaid.  Buff up your resume and go looking for jobs that pay better.  Given that you're willing to move, you have a ton of options.  At your stage in life, nothing else will get you to the finish line faster than increasing your earnings. With your experience, that should be relatively easy compared to most.
I check Craigslist regularly and send resumes to places that look promising. I'm always ignored. Am I missing something? How else am I supposed to get a job? I don't even hear back about why they pass me over.

dhc

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 06:58:18 PM »
Quote
Honestly, if you want to prioritize early retirement, then your #1 goal should be to get a market salary for your software development experience.  $32k for software is criminally underpaid.  Buff up your resume and go looking for jobs that pay better.  Given that you're willing to move, you have a ton of options.  At your stage in life, nothing else will get you to the finish line faster than increasing your earnings. With your experience, that should be relatively easy compared to most.
I check Craigslist regularly and send resumes to places that look promising. I'm always ignored. Am I missing something? How else am I supposed to get a job? I don't even hear back about why they pass me over.
Are you actually a software developer, or are you someone who knows a bit of IT and calls yourself a software developer because you manage some sort of back-end system for your company (although honestly, that salary is ridiculous either way)?

Craigslist is not the place to find software development jobs. To a large extent, given that you're open to relocation, software development is the sort of industry where you should find the job that's available and move there rather than picking a place and trying to find a job. However, Chicago, while not the first city that jumps to mind for technology, is big enough you shouldn't have a problem finding something locally. The key if you're stuck in a city is to think through what sorts of companies are based there or have offices there that do development work. That'll include both companies where software is the business and companies where software falls under a larger IT umbrella. Either way, look for places that are either big enough to be regularly hiring or growing. Ideally you'd find someone in your network who knows what they're looking for and get referred, but it's easy enough to use LinkedIn, Indeed, or the companies' own websites to apply for a fair number of positions.

It's not terribly difficult at the moment to at least get interviews for a tech job, so if you're getting no responses at all, you're either applying for the wrong jobs, or your resume is putting recruiters off somehow. Imagine you were a hiring manager. Would you reach out based on your resume? If not, why not? What would you want to see instead? Usually the answer to this question isn't as simple as changing words on your resume; instead, you've got to identify the critical skills or experience you're missing and figure out how to get them.

Good luck!

makai

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 08:37:23 PM »
Quote
Are you actually a software developer, or are you someone who knows a bit of IT and calls yourself a software developer because you manage some sort of back-end system for your company (although honestly, that salary is ridiculous either way)?
It's not my official title but it's what I spend all of my time doing. It's mostly web and mobile development. The most common pattern is a CMS coupled with an app. The client will ask for an app and a CMS to change the content. The content varies a lot. It could be real estate listings, area attractions, restaurant menus, etc. Through the CMS they can edit app pages, upload files, change the menu layout, etc. Often this will couple with other software that the client uses, usually a PMS. The app communicates with the CMS through the use of a JSON-based API. Either designing software like this or operating it(some client don't like managing their own CMS) is my job. This is a small company and I'm the only programmer. We have a graphics designer to do media and sometimes I get help doing front end design but I mostly do everything myself. Some tools I commonly use are HTML, CSS, JS, PHP, Python, Ruby, Java, SQL, Mongo, and Git. That's without listing their respective libraries. When I have downtime at work, I work on either my Emacs config or my own websites.

I do practice software development and know my way around it.

Quote
raigslist is not the place to find software development jobs. To a large extent, given that you're open to relocation, software development is the sort of industry where you should find the job that's available and move there rather than picking a place and trying to find a job. However, Chicago, while not the first city that jumps to mind for technology, is big enough you shouldn't have a problem finding something locally. The key if you're stuck in a city is to think through what sorts of companies are based there or have offices there that do development work. That'll include both companies where software is the business and companies where software falls under a larger IT umbrella. Either way, look for places that are either big enough to be regularly hiring or growing. Ideally you'd find someone in your network who knows what they're looking for and get referred, but it's easy enough to use LinkedIn, Indeed, or the companies' own websites to apply for a fair number of positions.
I don't have a network. I remember signing up for LinkedIn but I ended up removing it because the extent that it engulfs privacy is fanatical.

Quote
It's not terribly difficult at the moment to at least get interviews for a tech job, so if you're getting no responses at all, you're either applying for the wrong jobs, or your resume is putting recruiters off somehow. Imagine you were a hiring manager. Would you reach out based on your resume? If not, why not? What would you want to see instead? Usually the answer to this question isn't as simple as changing words on your resume; instead, you've got to identify the critical skills or experience you're missing and figure out how to get them.
I have stood on the other side of this. There was one moment when my boss asked for my opinion on a developer he wanted to hire. He wanted to do it because he thought we didn't have enough staff to work on a certain urgent project. I ended up doing it myself and we didn't hire anyone. Proficiency in the required technologies is the most important. If not, then the ability to learn it quickly. Code samples are a big plus. One applicant looked promising at first but then linked to a Github where the only code was crude and copied from tutorials. One applicant was passed because they were overqualified and would demand too high of a salary. Quite a few applicants were rejected due to their poor English skills. It's baffling how many people struggle with literacy.

Quote
Good luck!
Thanks. This thread made me think twice about my job. I was happy just to have it but I know that people doing the same as me are making much more. I can run circles around them. Maybe I need to get better at selling myself.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 08:41:28 PM by makai »

letired

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 11:08:33 PM »
Re getting a better paying job:

1. Go to meetup.com and make an account.

2. Do three searches:
 - 'software'
 - your favorite programming language
 - something that you are interested in in software OR a type of development job you would like.

3. Pick at least 1, but preferably 3 meetups.

4. Go regularly to at least 1 meetup for 6 months. Talk to someone new at each meetup. Ask them about themselves, what they are working on, what technology they use, what technology they like, and if they have a favorite meetup.

voila, you have networked yourself sans linkedin! Continue attending your three favorite meetups and gently let it be known that you're thinking of looking for a new job.

Also, look on real job sites like LinkedIn or Indeed. The days of decent craigslist software dev jobs is long long over.

former player

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 05:29:25 AM »
letired has good advice about getting a new job.  The other route to take would be to ask for a raise at the job you've already got - there is plenty of advice about this you can look up.

The thing that strikes me most about your questions, and the answers you have given so far, is that you don't seem to have much of a support system.  Wherever you are, I think that having a community (family, or friends, or colleagues, or fellow players of sports or games or whatever) who support you makes the biggest difference to quality of life, bigger even than avoiding depressing winter weather.  So I would suggest that you start with trying to build a community around you where you currently are (there's lots of advice on that around and about too - maybe start with something like meetup?  Going to lunch with a colleague you would like to have as a friend?)  Even if you eventually move, creating something like the life you would like to have where you currently are will give you more direction as to where you might eventually want to go (eg you join a climbing gym and decide you want to go where there are mountains, or join a sailing club and want to go where there is warm water) rather than picking something from suggestions here which can only be pretty random.

Best of luck.

Laura33

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2017, 06:46:53 AM »
FWIW, "network" does not mean "strangers that you found through some internet page."  It also does not mean "Biff and Muffy who you met at prep school."  Your strongest network is the people you work with on a daily basis -- they know you, they know the work you do, and they can provide a very strong recommendation/referral. 

Honestly, I had a problem with the concept of "networking," because it sounded to me like putting appearances over substance, i.e., Biff gets the job because he plays golf with the boss, and I am all about substance and assumed that my work should speak for itself.  But then I watched my DH -- who is freaking brilliant and as substantive as they come -- get caught in the tech crash.  And he picked up the phone and called people he knew -- his advisor from school who always thought highly of his work, friends from former jobs who knew how great he was at his job, etc.  Those guys either passed along info they had about job openings, or asked around, and within a month, he had a new job.  Just like that.  Three times in five years (tech crash = multiple plant shutdowns), raise and promotion each time.  As excellent as his work was, he still needed someone to make the connection between him and the people with a slot to fill.  And that connection is much, much better coming from someone who can personally vouch for you than from a headhunter or job board.

This is admittedly a longer-term play; if you don't have a network, it takes time to build one.  But you can only start where you are now.  You may do awesome work, but if no one knows about it, and they don't know who you are because all you're doing is the work, it's not actually going to do you any good in your career.  Take the time to get to know the people around you, whether that is sharing lunch in the break room, going to happy hour, whatever. 

Scortius

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 10:04:53 AM »
Yup, you're not just going to go out and find a new job tomorrow.  That's fine, you have lots of time, you basically are MMM at this point in your life.  Make sure you check out his trajectory:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of-the-stash-how-we-saved-from-zero-to-retirement-in-ten-years/

He didn't just fall into a 6-figure job, it took years to work his way up.  But, he never let himself stay complacent and continued to pursue opportunities as they came up.

You're at 32k, don't worry about signing on with Google, just keep your eyes open for opportunities in the 40k range.  Meanwhile, I like the tech meetup idea.  I also encourage you to find a fun but low-key open-source project on GitHub and try your hand at some pull requests.  It doesn't even matter if they're accepted.  Just force yourself to start trying new things and putting your work out there for other people to see.  Do join LinkedIn and just slowly build a small network.  Don't apply to jobs on craigslist, go find companies in your area and check their job listings sites and apply directly.  Pick some fun LCOL cities and just look through companies in those locations.  If you're in Chicago, also check out MInneapolis, Milwaukee, Madison, Indianapolis, Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Nashville, Memphis.  There are tons of companies throughout those cities looking for good people, and many top programmers are going to avoid cities like these for NYC, SF, Seattle, and LA.

Try and find a job in the 40k range in 2 years or so, work there for 2-3 years, then look for a job in the mid 50s and work there for 2-3 years.  At this point you'll have 5 years of direct industry experience and an extended professional network so you can possibly go looking for a 70-80k job.  A few years later, you might be able to hit 6 figures.  The trick is that you have to be patient and keep trying.

mamagoose

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 02:29:10 PM »
What is the procedure for moving a long distance? It would be difficult to examine a property that's on the other side of the country. I could take a trip but then I'd have nowhere to stay while I'm there. It takes a long time to find a good place and it's unreasonable to keep having to take trips.

Check out Couchsurfing. If your work allows for business travel, take them up on any opportunity for it and use those trips to scout out other areas of the country. Indeed.com is the best professional job search engine I've found, paired with Glassdoor.com for insider information on the interview process. I have relocated coast to coast many times now, if you're moving for a job the new employer should cover it or you can deduct moving expenses on your taxes. Yes, moving can be expensive but that's life. We visited our current hometown 3x over the course of a year from across the country to make sure it was right (looking back we new as soon as we got off the plane the first trip).

If you live in Florida, you will spend a lot of your time indoors (it's hot hot hot most of the year), but at least there's no state income tax - towns like Gainesville & Tallahassee would provide your small town walkability vibe and are beautiful places.

Buying a condo: yes you'll eliminate rent, but now you have condo fees. Have you considered full-time RV living? You could maintain your minimalist lifestyle & get to move whenever you wanted.

dhc

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 04:49:08 PM »
Thanks. This thread made me think twice about my job. I was happy just to have it but I know that people doing the same as me are making much more. I can run circles around them. Maybe I need to get better at selling myself.

From the sounds of it, you're closer to the "applying for the wrong jobs" possibility I mentioned than the "resume putting off recruiters" end, although it never hurts to take a really critical look at your resume to see if it's telling the story you want it to. It sounds like you've solved problems and built things from scratch that work with other existing pieces, which are all things employers are likely to look for.

You've gotten some good advice about networking and job searches. I've also found Liz Ryan's advice such as this pretty helpful in job searches: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/2014/08/20/how-to-find-your-hiring-manager-using-linkedin/#b4b847e4cfe9

Selling yourself is a weird skill. I find it's easier to think of it as understanding the story of what you're good at and being able to tell it well - your goal isn't to appeal to every employer for every job; it's to appeal to the ones who need someone just like you. If you've been able to convince your boss not to hire others because you could do the work better, you've already got some experience at this. It takes practice, but I bet if you get good at it you could at least double your current salary.

Keep us updated!

ulrichw

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 06:45:40 PM »
I saw this:
Quote
Am I missing something? How else am I supposed to get a job? I don't even hear back about why they pass me over.
...and I was thinking, gosh - he's throwing up his hands and giving up without really trying.

But then I saw this:
[...] This is a small company and I'm the only programmer. [...] I mostly do everything myself. Some tools I commonly use are HTML, CSS, JS, PHP, Python, Ruby, Java, SQL, Mongo, and Git. That's without listing their respective libraries. When I have downtime at work, I work on either my Emacs config or my own websites. [...]

and started thinking "how the heck is his company getting away with paying him that little?"

It sounds like you have mastered (or are mastering) a large set of technologies, are self-directed, and can get things done. These are surprisingly unusual skills.

Back to your original question, OP:
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I have problems with winter depression, so I want to go somewhere with a warm climate.
[...]
What would be a good place to move to in the USA?

I'll give you differing advice from most of this thread, given your skillset. You don't need to move to a LCOL or a small city with low property taxes. On the contrary, you're the perfect candidate to move to one of the most HCOL, impossible-to-buy-real estate areas in the country: The San Francisco Bay Area.

Starting salaries for Software Engineers fresh out of school here are six digits. Rents are commensurately ridiculous, but if you're willing to live minimalistically, even though you'll be saving a smaller percentage of your income, it'll be a bigger number (probably by far).

The weather can't be beaten: Not too hot, not too cold, and rarely rainy. (Beware of fog along the coast and in significant parts of San Francisco itself).

How to do it:
Are you on LinkedIn? If not, get on it now.

I wouldn't normally recommend this path, but you may want to see if you can find any recruiters who can help you find a position - they will most likely also offer you some advice on how to structure your resume to work better (for one, make sure Software Engineer or something like it is in your job description).

Do you have a college degree? I'm guessing you may not and that's why you're having some issues. Don't despair: the market is hot enough that this is not an insurmountable problem. You may have an easier entry into the market in a non-developer role (though that may also make the switch into a developer role more difficult down the road).

With you self-described skills you should eventually get involved in an early-stage startup.

Regardless, Silicon Valley is *the* place to be for Software Engineers. Job mobility is tremendous (once you establish a bit of a job history, that is), so if you don't like a position - find a new one.

The main thing that worries me about this scenario is:
Quote
My goal is to be able to stop working as soon as possible.

I'm thinking that once you're in an environment with other like-minded people, you may find that the work is an activity that's worthwhile in itself (in addition to having the potential to give you a large amount of money). You'll still be able to retire early, though perhaps not until you're closer to 40.

If you really just want to stop working, then disregard my advice.

makai

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2017, 11:28:21 PM »
Thanks for all the replies. I didn't expect so many.

I looked at meetup.com. It seems like a good way to meet people. There are groups that relate to the tools I use. I'll have to attend one of these meetings.

About asking for a raise, my yearly review is in 5 months. I'll probably get an increase. It would be disappointing if I didn't. Hopefully I'll get a new job by then.

It's true that I have a poor support system. I don't have any special relationships with my coworkers. They're definitely not my friends. I don't talk to them outside of work nor intend to maintain contact after I leave. I pack all my lunches and have never gone out. To be honest, I don't get along with them. I don't want to go into detail but it's part of what makes me want to expedite my retirement. I keep communication to a minimum.

Networking has never been my strong point. Sometimes we have a new opening and our boss asks us if we know anyone that can fill it. We can even get paid for referring someone. From the employer's perspective, it's a better way to hire. I'm sure that having contacts in various companies would make it much easier to get hired. Most likely if there's a new position in such a company, it's going to go to someone's friend. They don't want to hire outsiders.

I'm doing about as well as MMM was at the same point. That's inspiring. I also have the advantage of aiming for FIRE from the start. Since I had such a hard time finding any more jobs, I figured I would stay with this company until I could retire. This thread has inspired me to rethink that. Earning more will help me retire faster.

My coworkers travel a lot but I don't go anywhere. It's not necessary with the type of work I do. That's a shame because I would like to have the opportunity to travel.

I've heard bad things about San Francisco and California in general. Mostly about the outrageous cost of living. If there really are high paying jobs then I would consider going there. Of course it would be temporary. I'd look for a different place to settle down once I'm retired.

I don't have a degree. College is a scam.

I can't imagine working until I'm close to 40. I'm struggling to pursue my interests. I want to be free and have my life back. The only use I have for money is to ensure this freedom.

I originally made this thread with housing in mind but it quickly shifted to employment. That's fine, it's more important. Everyone seems shocked over how little I make. I've been in a gridlock since I couldn't earn more nor lower my expenses. That made me focus on Vanguard. I've been fortunate to have a 15% rate of return even with some mild losses. That shows how conservative the 4% rule is. It gives me hope that my goal is close. Today I made more from my portfolio than from my day of work. I could absolutely go FIRE if I only had more to work with.

Here is my todo list.
- Update resume and Github.
- Visit some groups to get connections.
- Revisit Linkedin.
- Learn about Meetup, Couchsurfing, Indeed, and Glassdoor.
- Look at job openings in SF and other cities.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 11:32:27 PM by makai »

Scortius

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2017, 01:07:19 AM »
Thanks for all the replies. I didn't expect so many.

I looked at meetup.com. It seems like a good way to meet people. There are groups that relate to the tools I use. I'll have to attend one of these meetings.

Definitely go, for sure.  Get out of your place and make yourself start doing some new things.

Quote
About asking for a raise, my yearly review is in 5 months. I'll probably get an increase. It would be disappointing if I didn't. Hopefully I'll get a new job by then.

You don't ask for a raise at your performance review.  You talk to your manager five months before your performance review.  You discuss all of the responsibilities you've taken on, and you show your demonstrated value to the company.  You let your manager know that you would like a very favorable review in 5 months, and that you want to know what steps you can take now to help that be a reality.

Quote
It's true that I have a poor support system. I don't have any special relationships with my coworkers. They're definitely not my friends. I don't talk to them outside of work nor intend to maintain contact after I leave. I pack all my lunches and have never gone out. To be honest, I don't get along with them. I don't want to go into detail but it's part of what makes me want to expedite my retirement. I keep communication to a minimum.

Go to meetups.  Try to introduce yourself.  Try to make yourself a little uncomfortable and expand your vision of yourself.

Quote
Networking has never been my strong point. Sometimes we have a new opening and our boss asks us if we know anyone that can fill it. We can even get paid for referring someone. From the employer's perspective, it's a better way to hire. I'm sure that having contacts in various companies would make it much easier to get hired. Most likely if there's a new position in such a company, it's going to go to someone's friend. They don't want to hire outsiders.

Put yourself in your boss' shoes.  You're in charge of hiring people who you are going to depend on to drive your company or division.  Who do you bring in?  If you know somebody personally and already have a level of comfort and trust, you bring them in no interview needed.  Be that guy now for your boss so that when he/she moves on, you get to go too.

Quote
I'm doing about as well as MMM was at the same point. That's inspiring. I also have the advantage of aiming for FIRE from the start. Since I had such a hard time finding any more jobs, I figured I would stay with this company until I could retire. This thread has inspired me to rethink that. Earning more will help me retire faster.

Yup, you're in good shape given your technical background.

Quote
My coworkers travel a lot but I don't go anywhere. It's not necessary with the type of work I do. That's a shame because I would like to have the opportunity to travel.

Have you mentioned this to your boss???

Quote
I've heard bad things about San Francisco and California in general. Mostly about the outrageous cost of living. If there really are high paying jobs then I would consider going there. Of course it would be temporary. I'd look for a different place to settle down once I'm retired.

Never hurts to try.  Reach out to some recruiters.

Quote
I don't have a degree. College is a scam.

Meh, college can be a waste of money and time.  It certainly isn't to those who know what they're doing and what they're paying for.  That said, it's not really relevant to the discussion. On the other hand, it could be very possible in the future to get an employer to pay for your undergrad degree.  Or you could even look into bootcamps, although I am not as well versed in that track myself.

Quote
I can't imagine working until I'm close to 40. I'm struggling to pursue my interests. I want to be free and have my life back. The only use I have for money is to ensure this freedom.

I originally made this thread with housing in mind but it quickly shifted to employment. That's fine, it's more important. Everyone seems shocked over how little I make. I've been in a gridlock since I couldn't earn more nor lower my expenses. That made me focus on Vanguard. I've been fortunate to have a 15% rate of return even with some mild losses. That shows how conservative the 4% rule is. It gives me hope that my goal is close. Today I made more from my portfolio than from my day of work. I could absolutely go FIRE if I only had more to work with.

Here is my todo list.
- Update resume and Github.
- Visit some groups to get connections.
- Revisit Linkedin.
- Learn about Meetup, Couchsurfing, Indeed, and Glassdoor.
- Look at job openings in SF and other cities.

Keep it up, keep doing something each day to reach out and expand yourself.  If you keep this trajectory you'll be in great shape in no time.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 01:10:29 AM by Scortius »

Laura33

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2017, 07:53:27 AM »
It's true that I have a poor support system. I don't have any special relationships with my coworkers. They're definitely not my friends. I don't talk to them outside of work nor intend to maintain contact after I leave. I pack all my lunches and have never gone out. To be honest, I don't get along with them. I don't want to go into detail but it's part of what makes me want to expedite my retirement. I keep communication to a minimum.

Networking has never been my strong point. Sometimes we have a new opening and our boss asks us if we know anyone that can fill it. We can even get paid for referring someone. From the employer's perspective, it's a better way to hire. I'm sure that having contacts in various companies would make it much easier to get hired. Most likely if there's a new position in such a company, it's going to go to someone's friend. They don't want to hire outsiders.

Please do what you can to change your mindset on this.  Every single person you meet is a potential ally or potential enemy; how you treat them usually determines which one they will be.  You have no idea where you will be in ten years, or where they will be.  You can have awesome technical skills, but if no one actually knows about them because you don't bother to talk to them, they won't get you anywhere -- and if people know about your technical skills but won't recommend you because they don't want to work with you, that's even worse.  IOW:  you are already building a network, every day, by how you interact with people; the only question is whether it is a positive network of people who are willing to recommend you, or a negative network of people who don't particularly care to work with you again because you never tried to connect with them.

I have already told you DH's story.  Please note that he didn't get any of his jobs because he was "someone's friend."  The friend just got him the introduction -- they knew someone who was looking to fill a position and passed along his information; he still had to go in and nail the interview and impress the company with his technical skills.  Having people who will speak well of you doesn't mean someone hands you a job, but it does give you opportunities to strut your stuff that you would not get otherwise.  In my own life, the very first client I ever brought in was someone I worked with in a former job.  I never tried to impress him; honestly, I didn't even really remember him, because we'd only done one small project together.  But apparently that "small" project from my perspective was a big deal to him, and so when he had another problem come up down the line, I was the one he called.  That client has brought in probably $1M in fees to my firm over the past decade.

Look, I get it.  I am a geek and an introvert, and I suck at people.  But you need to find a way to get over that and learn.  I think there is a tendency by highly technical people to discount people skills, even to scoff at them as style over substance.  This could not be more self-defeating.  Every job involves people; every job requires communication and teamwork and generally getting along with people with different backgrounds and skills and personalities.  And bosses want employees who can both do the technical work and play nice with others, because they don't want to spend 24/7 babysitting their employees or resolving preschool-level disputes.  Like I said, you are building a network every day, like it or not.  So what do you think your current network (coworkers, boss) would say about you if someone asked them?  If one of them heard about a great job opportunity, would they recommend you for it?  If the answer is not an unequivocal yes, this is where you start. 

ulrichw

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2017, 12:43:05 PM »
Lots of good posts in this thread... My additional feedback:
[...]
I've heard bad things about San Francisco and California in general. Mostly about the outrageous cost of living. If there really are high paying jobs then I would consider going there. Of course it would be temporary. I'd look for a different place to settle down once I'm retired.
The bad things apply to people who're not in the tech industry. Tech is the reason that the situation is so outrageous here. There *really* are high paying (tech) jobs here, and even in your situation, I'll bet you won't have a hard time finding something.

Networking is helpful, but not necessary. You've said you'll start looking for positions here - that's great. In terms of where to look: I'd suggest looking on the SF Peninsula as well as the city. (Basically everything between and including S.F. and San Jose).

Quote
I don't have a degree. College is a scam.
Congratulations, I agree with you. However, although you're right, you've also partially sabotaged your ability to find positions. Scam or not, people who hire place a lot (too much, in my opinion) of value on a degree.

You mentioned a desire to travel - the very lucrative field of consulting, which often includes extensive travel (considered a down-side by many), is probably shut down for you due to your lack of a degree.

One thing to realize is that your situation is a result of choices that you've made. Own them. This choice, though intellectually valid, is one that will place some limits on your opportunities.

The good news is (reiterating my previous post) that this is not fatal if you have skills to make up for the lack. You're just going to have a smaller pool of available positions.

And on a completely different note:
Quote
[...]
 I've been fortunate to have a 15% rate of return even with some mild losses. That shows how conservative the 4% rule is. It gives me hope that my goal is close. [...]
Both facts may be true (you've had a 15% rate of return and the 4% rule is conservative), but your conclusion is very, very wrong - the one does not support the other.

You're looking at your experience in a wonderful bull market and extrapolating from that. The market has repeatedly had tremendous run-ups, but there have also been huge crashes, periods of stagnation, etc.

You have to look at much longer timescales to establish how conservative (or not) the 4% rule is. I'd also suggest looking at some non-US markets to get even more perspective. Most of our market's history has occurred during a time that the US moved to be the world's #1 economy. We also benefited by not having world wars fought on our territory. Now that we're #1, where can we go? Our market's past performance may not be predictive of our future. Asia's coming up fast.

In any case, this statement and some others that you're making are a reflection of your youth, in my opinion. No matter - just keep an open mind, and don't limit yourself unnecessarily. You have the means to reach your current goals, but you may also find that there are even better opportunities waiting for you.

makai

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2017, 02:07:13 AM »
Quote
Please do what you can to change your mindset on this.  Every single person you meet is a potential ally or potential enemy; how you treat them usually determines which one they will be.  You have no idea where you will be in ten years, or where they will be.  You can have awesome technical skills, but if no one actually knows about them because you don't bother to talk to them, they won't get you anywhere -- and if people know about your technical skills but won't recommend you because they don't want to work with you, that's even worse.  IOW:  you are already building a network, every day, by how you interact with people; the only question is whether it is a positive network of people who are willing to recommend you, or a negative network of people who don't particularly care to work with you again because you never tried to connect with them.
They know about my skillet but since I'm the only programmer, my work rarely overlaps with theirs. There's not much opportunity for connection. I used to share articles about programming and code that I've written but I stopped because they're not interested. It's a small company and there's not much turnover. It's the same people everyday and I don't see them being able to recommend me anywhere.

I remember a project I was especially proud of. It was a programming language interpreter. It was thrilling to make and made me feel like I hit satori. I tried showing it off but they didn't understand it at all. Trying to explain how it works melted their brains. They're not programmers and they don't know how to appreciate that kind of thing.
Quote
I have already told you DH's story.  Please note that he didn't get any of his jobs because he was "someone's friend."  The friend just got him the introduction -- they knew someone who was looking to fill a position and passed along his information; he still had to go in and nail the interview and impress the company with his technical skills.  Having people who will speak well of you doesn't mean someone hands you a job, but it does give you opportunities to strut your stuff that you would not get otherwise.  In my own life, the very first client I ever brought in was someone I worked with in a former job.  I never tried to impress him; honestly, I didn't even really remember him, because we'd only done one small project together.  But apparently that "small" project from my perspective was a big deal to him, and so when he had another problem come up down the line, I was the one he called.  That client has brought in probably $1M in fees to my firm over the past decade.
Showing off my skills is the easy part. Getting to that point is hard. I'm confident that if given the chance, I could impress a potential employer. I just need a chance.
Quote
Look, I get it.  I am a geek and an introvert, and I suck at people.  But you need to find a way to get over that and learn.  I think there is a tendency by highly technical people to discount people skills, even to scoff at them as style over substance.  This could not be more self-defeating.  Every job involves people; every job requires communication and teamwork and generally getting along with people with different backgrounds and skills and personalities.  And bosses want employees who can both do the technical work and play nice with others, because they don't want to spend 24/7 babysitting their employees or resolving preschool-level disputes.  Like I said, you are building a network every day, like it or not.  So what do you think your current network (coworkers, boss) would say about you if someone asked them? If one of them heard about a great job opportunity, would they recommend you for it?  If the answer is not an unequivocal yes, this is where you start.
They would say that I'm knowledgeable but hard to get along with. I never talk to my boss. If he wants to tell me something, he does it through my manager.
Quote
The bad things apply to people who're not in the tech industry. Tech is the reason that the situation is so outrageous here. There *really* are high paying (tech) jobs here, and even in your situation, I'll bet you won't have a hard time finding something.

Networking is helpful, but not necessary. You've said you'll start looking for positions here - that's great. In terms of where to look: I'd suggest looking on the SF Peninsula as well as the city. (Basically everything between and including S.F. and San Jose).
That's good. I wouldn't live there unless I had a high paying job. If I do end up there, it would only be for the duration of my career. I'd move away once I hit the number.
Quote
Congratulations, I agree with you. However, although you're right, you've also partially sabotaged your ability to find positions. Scam or not, people who hire place a lot (too much, in my opinion) of value on a degree.

You mentioned a desire to travel - the very lucrative field of consulting, which often includes extensive travel (considered a down-side by many), is probably shut down for you due to your lack of a degree.

One thing to realize is that your situation is a result of choices that you've made. Own them. This choice, though intellectually valid, is one that will place some limits on your opportunities.

The good news is (reiterating my previous post) that this is not fatal if you have skills to make up for the lack. You're just going to have a smaller pool of available positions.
I've seen what college is about. Every time I hear about it I'm even more glad I didn't go.
Quote
Both facts may be true (you've had a 15% rate of return and the 4% rule is conservative), but your conclusion is very, very wrong - the one does not support the other.

You're looking at your experience in a wonderful bull market and extrapolating from that. The market has repeatedly had tremendous run-ups, but there have also been huge crashes, periods of stagnation, etc.

You have to look at much longer timescales to establish how conservative (or not) the 4% rule is. I'd also suggest looking at some non-US markets to get even more perspective. Most of our market's history has occurred during a time that the US moved to be the world's #1 economy. We also benefited by not having world wars fought on our territory. Now that we're #1, where can we go? Our market's past performance may not be predictive of our future. Asia's coming up fast.
Don't worry, I won't really depend on such a rate of return. My idea was that it would take a lot to break it. It would have to be a major economic downturn. I see no reason to worry about Asia.
Quote
In any case, this statement and some others that you're making are a reflection of your youth, in my opinion. No matter - just keep an open mind, and don't limit yourself unnecessarily. You have the means to reach your current goals, but you may also find that there are even better opportunities waiting for you.
As long as I keep stashing, I'm bound to get there eventually. My goal is to do it sooner than later. I noticed that the users of this forum are older than me. It's nice to get that kind of insight. I don't have access to it otherwise.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:10:55 AM by makai »

former player

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2017, 02:33:52 AM »
I used to share articles about programming and code that I've written.

I remember a project I was especially proud of. It was a programming language interpreter. It was thrilling to make and made me feel like I hit satori.
I'm not a programmer and I've no idea how to interpret these statements, but I'm still impressed.

Are the articles on your CV?  Is the programming language interpreter on your CV?  If not, put them on it and send it to Google.  Or Tesla.  Or somewhere else at the top of the tree that you would like to work.  My ignorance tells me that it's quite possible you've been looking for jobs which pay about $200,000 less than the jobs you are suited to, which would explain why you aren't getting them.

ETA: And for dog's sake don't put your current salary on that CV.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:35:31 AM by former player »

Laura33

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2017, 06:38:53 AM »
They know about my skillet but since I'm the only programmer, my work rarely overlaps with theirs. There's not much opportunity for connection. I used to share articles about programming and code that I've written but I stopped because they're not interested. It's a small company and there's not much turnover. It's the same people everyday and I don't see them being able to recommend me anywhere.

I remember a project I was especially proud of. It was a programming language interpreter. It was thrilling to make and made me feel like I hit satori. I tried showing it off but they didn't understand it at all. Trying to explain how it works melted their brains. They're not programmers and they don't know how to appreciate that kind of thing.

. . . .

They would say that I'm knowledgeable but hard to get along with. I never talk to my boss. If he wants to tell me something, he does it through my manager.

OK, the bolded part is what is holding you back.  Here's the thing:  from what I am reading here, you don't have to convince people that you are smart and knowledgeable and excited about the stuff you are working on -- that stuff just bleeds through everything you write.  [I can say that with certainty, because this is my experience exactly]  But people don't want to hire someone who is hard to get along with unless they don't have any other choice.  You need to make connections on a personal level -- ask them about their day, their kids, last night's game, whatever.  Just show them you are a normal human who wants to be part of the team.  And for the love of Pete, control your impatience with their lack of knowledge; don't treat them as lesser or make them feel stupid because they don't know all the stuff you know.  [Again, ask me how I know]  Most people are actually happy to work with people who are smarter than them/know more than them and who are willing to apply those awesome skills to make the team look good to bosses and clients.  But they really cannot stand working with people who make them feel stupid. 

yodella

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Re: I Need Direction
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2017, 07:52:51 AM »
Like other responders, I too am shocked at your current salary and agree that getting a higher-paying job should be your #1 priority.

Everything you wrote reminds me a LOT of my husband. He didn't go to college either, is not social or close to his family, and has often been described by co-workers as hard to get along with.

When we met, he was in a very similar situation to yours - he worked for a small business as pretty much the only programmer/software guy, and for a long time they underpaid him criminally. It was a company that does a lot of IT-type stuff (imaging huge batches of new machines for school districts, etc) but very little actual software development, so no one really understood the things he did. He started out as an IT tech, but over time (he stayed NINE YEARS, an eternity in software) developed his software skills until programming was his entire job.

He was 25 when we met (in 2009) and making $40k. Eventually they began giving him large raises after realizing all the time/money he was helping the company save, and by 2012 his salary was $90k. At that point he FINALLY began to look for work elsewhere, and landed a job at a very prestigious software company for $115k plus amazing benefits.

That's when things took a turn. His people skills have never been great, and he definitely believed that his work should speak for itself, and that was all that mattered. Well, during his first week at the new company he got pissed during a meeting and walked out. When he told me later that night, my jaw dropped.

That is just NOT a thing you can do, IN YOUR FIRST WEEK AT A NEW JOB. He seemed unconcerned.

The following week, they fired him.

[Interestingly, there had been a signing bonus, plus the great salary, plus a big 401k match, plus a severance payment (in exchange for signing a contract stating he would not share his experience publicly). This meant that for five days of work plus one holiday, he ended up netting ~$18k. But that's neither here nor there.]

After this incident, his confidence suffered. But he hustled and found a new (remote) job within two weeks, which paid $120k plus stock options. The first six months were rough and he often tangled with one guy in particular. But it got better, and he received this feedback: "We really didn't like you in the beginning, but now that we know you and your work we think you're great." He stayed 2 years.

A new job search yielded a bevy of interviews at several major tech companies. He ended up accepting an offer of $170k at a Bay area company, and has been working for them remotely from our LCOL area for about 10 months. He is (mostly) happy with the current arrangement, and has received the same feedback: "We didn't like you at first, but now we think you're awesome."

I guess I'm sharing this hoping it may help you.

1. It sounds like you are very self-sufficient and good at teaching yourself new things. If you invest some time in developing people skills (which will help you land/keep good jobs, among other things), the dividends could be huge.

2. Many software companies hire remote developers; it's totally possible to get a Bay area or Seattle-level salary (or close to it anyway) and live in a LCOL area.

3. Software companies are CONSTANTLY trying to find qualified people; at least in my husband's case, the lack of college degree has honestly never come up. Instead they look at your GitHub and put you through a series of technical interviews.

4. I absolutely echo the person above who said do NOT tell prospective employers your current salary. It is not a fair representation of your earning potential. There are all kinds of evasive phrases you can deploy if they ask, you can google it.

You are going to do great.