Author Topic: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!  (Read 3963 times)

JimT2019

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Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« on: June 17, 2020, 06:54:07 AM »
Hi All,

First let me say that I hope everyone is as healthy and happy as possible, and acknowledge that I feel extremely lucky to even be able to post something like this while so many are still suffering or out of work.

Here is the basic overview. My wife and I (together with our two kids; 9 and 7) have been stationed in Europe for the last six-years for my job. We had a solid financial base before moving, took advantage of a cost of living increase, and went hardcore MMM. As a result, we have been able to accumulate a net worth of around $1.1m. This is made up of approximately $850K cash, no debt of any kind, and approximately $250K in retirement assets. We are currently saving about $100K a year in cash mostly through my work. My wife also has a small consulting business that has been in operation for about 8-years and makes about $15 - $20K per year with minimal effort.

Our goal is to use this base to build an awesome life back home in the U.S. over the 1-2 years from scratch. We are 39 and would love to be more-or-less "free" by 42. By awesome life I mean...

- Leave the 8-6 grind behind and each be responsible for earning $20K (or less) a year - I am beyond burned out!

- Be free to enjoy as much of our kids last years of childhood together as a family as possible - I have done an okay job, but missed a lot through work!

- Live in a place with good public schools and lots of access to nature (we love hiking, biking, trail running, etc.)

- Live close enough to a city that if we needed a job in the future we could land one without another relocation or miserable and expensive commute (my wife was a teacher and I work in marketing) - we don't want to displace the kids again since we already brought them to Europe.

- Be in a place where our kids never have to leave if they don't want to. Probably our only complaint in life is that we both grew up in a place where most kids leave for college and/or jobs, and we could never really make it back because of the narrow range of opportunities - thus we don't see friends and family nearly enough and don't want our kids to have to make that same choice (home vs. whatever they want from life).

But no matter how we cut it, or where we look, it seems everywhere converges on something around $115K a year for a family of four (before tax), which means we would need to come up with another $50K per year, which also means one of us probably has a traditional "job" (assuming our investments could drive around $50K per year after tax (off $1.0m) and my wife could easily make another $20K with her consulting company). Again, we recognize this is a privileged situation and many, many families make it work on less, but we have worked hard (and been lucky enough) to be in this situation and want to give our kids the best we can within reason - and also enjoy our own guilty pleasures.

For example...

We have looked in suburban Connecticut as we have friends who live there and know it pretty well. The state is struggling a bit so you can pick up a house in a good neighborhood at a "bargain" (approximately $550K) and benefit from good public schools, but that leaves you with a hefty mortgage, you get hammered with property tax, if you do have to work the commute is insane, the nature isn't great, and the weather is less than ideal. Plus, Connecticut is known for being a place young people leave, which means we would essentially be moving there for a job we hope to not need and good schools, only to probably move again once the kids take flight. And with a $3000 mortgage (including tax), $1000 health insurance, $900 in food, $2000 a year to visit our families, and $700 a month in sports/activities (our kids love soccer), you are already zeroing in on that $115K number before tax.

We also looked in the Cincy, Nashville, Atlanta corridor, but the story is about the same. Food, sports, and health insurance essentially stay unchanged, but you either end up needing a $500K+ house (in a place like Franklin, TN) to get good public schools, or you buy somewhere cheaper and put them in private school. Either way, the numbers essentially net out (trade lower mortgage and property tax for a private school bill) and most those places lack accessible nature and a robust job market - apart from perhaps Nashville. Again, we feel like we would be going here because they are perhaps a little cheaper than the northeast, but the difference seems minimal and we see the kids leaving as they get older (and we would leave too if they did as this isn't really our ideal spot for proper retirement).

The best option we have found so far, and we have looked just about everywhere, seems to be an area like Steiner Ranch outside of Austin, TX. You still end up with the $550K house and the property tax is really high (we don't really want a McMansion - that just seems to be all there is), but you pay no state or city income tax (so you do better than a place like Cincy even with the cheaper houses because of State income tax). In addition you get great schools, lots of nature, warm weather and access to the job market in Austin should you need to go back to work. It seems like a place you can live an entire life and not need to leave, but I'm still not thrilled about the idea of saving all this money just to buy a half-million dollar house with high property tax and also don't know the area that well!

I know this all probably makes us sound really soft to a MMM audience, but I promise we are not. We have lived as a family of four in a tiny apartment well off the beaten path, with an old, cash-bought car, almost no furniture, no "toys", and rarely ate out for six years, and lived very much the same before moving abroad.  Basically, we have been hardcore MMM devotees for years to achieve our goal and are now ready to set-up our semi-retired life...only we are terrified of making an unforeseen mistake and ruining our progress!

At the same time, we are trying to be realistic about what we need to be happy longer term (going this level MMM hasn't been easy), do want to enjoy a bit more of life than perhaps we have, and don't want to jeopardize our children's future, or force them to live an isolated life because we're sick of the grind. 

There are probably some obvious things we are overlooking, so I guess I am asking...

If you were in our situation, how would you structure your life (use the money)?

Are there places you would recommend we haven't considered?

How are people setting up these lives (with kids) on like $70K per year? Between ('mortgage + tax' or 'mortgage + private school'), health insurance, groceries, visiting our parents at least once a year, and allowing kids to explore their interests (like sports), we just don't see how we can trim anymore fat than we already have.

All thoughts and ideas welcome!

All the best!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 07:05:22 AM by JimT2019 »

ysette9

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2020, 07:51:01 AM »
Hi there. Nice job saving and good luck to you in this next big step of your lives.

As I read your list I’m thinking of my engineering problems from school. You are trying to solve multiple equations simultaneously without enough boundary conditions or constraints. The possible solution set right now is so vast that you are naturally having trouble figuring out what to do.

We just moved states in hopes of finding a better long-term FIRE spot, so I can share how I approached this same challenge.

First I recommend you start with what is important to you. You are really inventing your new life from the ground up, so think hard about what you want. Culture, weather, leisure activities, friends, resources for your kids, healthcare, etc.

For exemple, we are a trilingual family so we looked for places that have enough of a cultural mix to support a public immersion school program for our kids in language A while also having activities and community available in language B. We want to garden and hike and camp and backpack and go to the ocean so we need a place that has all of that. I can’t stand/handle heat/humidity, and sun gives me migraines, so that further narrows things down. As a FIRE-ee healthcare will be very important, so I’d recommend crossing off your list any state that didn’t support ACA and didn’t expand Medicaid.

I also recommend reconsidering some of your assumptions. One could be what is a expensive cs cheap state. ÇA is always said to be expensive, but when I was running scenarios of living there on investment income only (long term capital gains) the tax treatment was very favorable and we could get very inexpensive healthcare (even free for the kids if I engineered it correctly) depending on how much or little in Roth conversions we chose to do each year. Another assumption is schools. I realize it is really hard to judge school quality from afar, but recognize that GreatSchools ratings don’t tell you anything beyond how white and rich the school population is. It says nothing about how good the program is or how well your kids would do there.

So anyway, what helped us was for the two of us to go away alone for a couple of hours and brainstorm out what we wanted to do with our lives once we didn’t work, and what was really important. We did this separately and then talked about it together. Maybe an exercise like that with your spouse to narrow things down a bit and then come back here for suggestions?

JGS1980

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2020, 07:55:36 AM »
Cost of Living comparisons online may help you quite a bit.

WAY too expensive in CT, but consider nearby Providence, RI or Eastern Pennsylvania where cost of living is much more reasonable.

How about Asheville NC or Charlottesville VA? These southern college towns seem to be pretty popular for folks who value education for their kids and want to live in a culturally diverse area with job opportunities.

I'd figure out the job thing before I figured out the destination. It looks like you are a bit too far off from true FIRE to move without something lined up.

For the record, my family of five plans on FAT-FIRE with about 65K-75K per year in spending.

MudPuppy

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2020, 08:06:39 AM »
Franklin is a rather expensive suburb of Nashville. You'll get a much better value in Mt Juliet, Smyrna, or Lebanon.

charis

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2020, 08:41:48 AM »
Another assumption is schools. I realize it is really hard to judge school quality from afar, but recognize that GreatSchools ratings don’t tell you anything beyond how white and rich the school population is. It says nothing about how good the program is or how well your kids would do there.

+1

I recommend digging in and pushing back hard on your assumptions about "good schools" vs bad schools.  We live in a mcol city (nice, non mcmansion houses go for 200k) in a "poor" school district with two kids in public school and lots of nature nearby. Our spending is around 60k, including mortgage and non mustachian kid activities. I realize it's hard to visit schools when you are looking remotely, but try posting in local neighborhood pages and asking about their public schools to get a sense of what local parents are doing. I.e., don't ask wealthy suburban parents to comment on a poorer, less white district a few towns away.

It's really important to acknowledge the economic divide in education and look at how we might be contributing to it on an individual level.

erutio

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2020, 10:55:03 AM »
Often hear people say, you can choose 2 of the 3:  Price, good schools, and location (close to nature, activities, weather, etc.)

If your priorities are good schools and location, you will have to expect to pay more.  There's no location that is going to be so desirable and not have cost factored in.


lhamo

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2020, 11:10:02 AM »
Definitely look at states with well-run ACA programs and expanded Medicaid.  Here in Washington state kids get full coverage under Medicaid even with solid family income (something close to 80-90k for a family of four) and you can get decent ACA plans for the adults for much less than $1k/month with subsidies.  I have had no problem accessing good care for my kids --including dental and vision -- under Medicaid in the Seattle area.

Also agree with the suggestion to look more broadly at what entails a "good" school or school district.   People love to complain about Seattle public schools (me too, sometimes) and some people do choose to move out to the suburban school districts that are perceived to be "better", but really the difference is marginal in most cases.

FWIW we did something similar to what you are planning, though our kids were older when we moved back to the US.  We had a bigger stash (thank you Beijing property market!), including a large cash stash that we are living off of after buying a house for cash -- that allows us to minimize the hit on health insurance.   Seattle is a fairly HCOL area but we are living very well on about 30k/year for essentials and 30-40k more/year on extras -- family still overseas and DH helps with caring for his parents so 10-20k/year goes to travel when things arent shut down, and also have to cover things like a recent 20k+ emergency repair to our sewer line...

talltexan

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2020, 11:30:41 AM »
In the Austin area, $550,000 will buy you a lot of house, way more than it sounds like you're accustomed to.

meandmyfamily

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2020, 04:59:09 PM »
Southern Arizona is a great place to raise a family and the cost of living isn't high.  We home school so we control the quality of education but there are some good school districts and top charter schools.

Do you have to pick 1 place? What if you narrow it down to several places?  Rent and travel a bit.  See what you end up liking best.  I know you want to pick one but maybe you should try them out a bit?

duyen

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2020, 05:44:30 PM »
Jim,

Buddy, I am surprised how similar are we. I am 40, my wife makes similar to what your wife does and our current networth too is in 1.1m. I plan to call it done as soon as I can and was looking at good cities to relocate to in a couple of years (work has become so tiring for me  already). Here are some main insights from my side for our situation

1) Our level of networth is too low for a family to live freely. Especially if you want to OWN a house. This is the big clause. We can call it done much earlier if we instead try to rent. My plan is to rent till kids go to college and let stash grow meanwhile
2) Here is our planned expenses: 43k per year or 3500/month (Rent: 1300, Food: 600, Shopping: 300, Healthcare (ACA): 300, Utilities, Cell, Car: 400, Kids Tution & Classes: 400, Vacation: 250)
3) Good cities with schools and jobs: North Carolina (Cary area); Texas (DFW area); Oklahoma and Arkansas have pretty good cities with good schools too but no jobs

I would suggest to move to one of these cheap areas and continue to rent and working. If you can sustain working till you build stash then buy a house else quit work and enjoy your FIRE life. Apartments have great amenities like swimming pool, clubhouse, tennis courts, neighbors that you can make friends with etc...; It can be really fun and renting is not that bad

SwordGuy

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2020, 05:44:36 PM »
I think you have a whole lot of assumptions about how much a house has to cost and what you have to do to make sure your kids have the ability to get a good education.

And I think those assumptions are dead wrong for much of the united states.

And congrats on your savings rate.   Is your money really in cash instead of the stock and bond market?

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 02:22:29 AM »
I agree with the renting first so you can check out areas and what’s good for you. If MMM could get by with a family of 3 on $25k, I’m sure you could a family of 4 for $70k if you look hard enough and focus on what’s important to you.

ontheway2

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 09:39:31 AM »
I don't have a town to recommend, but you can most definitely live for less than 115k/year for a family of four. I would rule out the VHCOL areas as you are past your accumulation phase and don't need the high income. The return on amenities is not worth it. If you pay cash for a ~400k house, that leaves you with 48k/year income between your savings and your wife's business with no mortgage. You can definitely be free now or in the very near future. Taxes will be minimal at that income and most expenses will be discretionary. You will also qualify for a nice ACA subsidy if healthcare is needed. In my zip, I could put my kids on the state CHIP insurance and have free HSA coverage or ~150/month copay coverage with a $900 deductible for myself and spouse

Edit: to compare, many will automatically balk with where I live, but our school district is ranked within the top 5% in the country, and our property taxes are ~1-2k/year. My state did not expand Medicaid, but we have CHIP where a family of 3 making less than 65k gets BCBS insurance for the kids for $104/year with $13 copays. It is great insurance. My oldest had a heart surgery and was in a top hospital for 3 days for $100.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 10:02:19 AM by ontheway2 »

meandmyfamily

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2020, 12:44:04 PM »
ontheway-Where do you live?  I am curious!

ontheway2

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 12:55:06 PM »
ontheway-Where do you live?  I am curious!

suburb of Huntsville, AL. Most people hear Alabama and automatically stereotype the area, but Huntsville is not typical Alabama. I'm in Madison which is known for their public schools

And a nice house is ~300k
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 12:58:38 PM by ontheway2 »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2020, 12:26:52 AM »
Didn't read the comments but your guesstimates sound completely off base.

The US median family income is $70k gross. A MMM educated family should be able to live an absolutely lavish lifestyle on this sort of income just about any MCOL area. Even in a HCOL area you should be creative enough not to need a six figure spend to check all of your boxes....

former player

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 03:11:40 AM »
OP's stash of 1.1m throws off an annual income of $40k at 4%.  Add in the wife's earnings at $20k and possibly another $20k from OP's part-time work.  Total is $80k and a pretty relaxed lifestyle.

I suspect that a part of the problem is that OP has been living the expat lifestyle, even if a mustachian version of it.  Expat lifestyles don't usually carry over to the return home.

The other part of the problem might be that everything OP wants -an economically thriving city with career opportunities in a lot of different fields, good public schools, lots of accessible nature and the right weather to enjoy it in - is pretty much what everyone would like, and a lot of people are prepared to work hard for many more years than OP is to pay for it, pushing OP's buying power down the ranks.

Actually, a lot of that sounds more accessible in Europe than in the USA.  Perhaps OP should consider staying and raising his kids in Europe?

If determined to move to the USA, I would suggest:

1.  Downsize your housing requirement to a small home in an area you like.  If you are living in an area with lots to do outside the home, educationally, culturally or in nature, you only need a small home.  Children of the same sex can share a bedroom.  Rent not buy, at least to start.

2.  Recognise that kids will (and should) take flight almost whatever you do, and will determine their own path in life whatever you do.  Trying to hang on to them, or incentivise them to stay close, would be a mistake.  So don't try to plan their lives for them beyond school/college age.  Settle where you and your spouse want to live until the youngest is 18 or 22 and then reassess as necessary.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 03:22:57 AM »
I get it @former player, but based on

"I know this all probably makes us sound really soft to a MMM audience, but I promise we are not. We have lived as a family of four in a tiny apartment well off the beaten path, with an old, cash-bought car, almost no furniture, no "toys", and rarely ate out for six years, and lived very much the same before moving abroad.  Basically, we have been hardcore MMM devotees for years to achieve our goal and are now ready to set-up our semi-retired life."

It sounda like OP should be able to find a creative solution. Median home price in the USA is  ~$250k, so "needing" to spend 225% of that "for the children" doesn't sound like a real MMM solution.

You offer good advice about resetting expectations around housing.

$80k/yr to spend is a shit ton of money, especially since both parents are semi-retired, meaning they should be able to insource much more in their lives....

ontheway2

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 08:00:52 AM »
ontheway-Where do you live?  I am curious!

suburb of Huntsville, AL. Most people hear Alabama and automatically stereotype the area, but Huntsville is not typical Alabama. I'm in Madison which is known for their public schools

And a nice house is ~300k

I live in Huntsville too. Can confirm that cost of living is low and schools are highly rated.

A lot of available jobs too if you are in engineering.

Hey Hey!!
This is definitely an educated engineering town. There are all types of corporate jobs as well though will all of the government contractors around here; I'm in contracts.

BikeFanatic

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2020, 05:49:23 AM »
I also agree that renting could be the way to go, also your numbers are way too high.

SailingOnASmallSailboat

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2020, 01:02:38 PM »
I'll throw in another plug for Charlottesville, Virginia (and do you want to buy a great house in a fabulous neighborhood? Ours is for sale! Lol.) - we went to college here and pretty much never left. Our kids grew up in this same house; our son is already talking about coming back to this town when he's done with school. Excellent public schools, a really top notch public university system in the state of Virginia. Amazing restaurant scene, incredible public libraries, and with UVA right here you have tons of lectures and other opportunities. Personal property tax is the only real "gotcha" in Virginia as a whole; sticking with older cars helps a ton with that.

GhostSaver

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2020, 07:53:14 PM »
So, I think the above comments are right. You could squeeze your budget and hang up the spurs somewhat-comfortably in a LCOL area. I'm familiar with New England and your housing cost estimate sounds wild to me, so long as you're not keeping up with the Joneses in suburban NYC.

But you haven't told us what kind of city you would need to be near. To me, NYC and LA sound good if you're in marketing and need to go back to work eventually. Would a cheaper large metro like MNPLS or Phoenix be just as good? Would smaller cities like Duluth, Boise or Portland, ME work for you? It seems like a lot depends on your work.

What kind of access to nature do you value and what kind of climate do you like? That matters too.

I'll echo the sentiment that you should move somewhere that makes sense for the next 10-15 years. If the kids need to leave to pursue their career goals or live in a spot that suits them, that's okay.

I'm outside of SLC and it meets your criteria, depending on your priorities for access to a job market and nature. My kids could commute from our house to the state U and get whatever degree or credentials they want, plus the local job market is robust. But I figure they'll want to move away someday, even if they don't feel forced to do so by lack of educational or occupational opportunities. There's a big world out there, and I hope I'm raising them with the confidence to want to see it. And who knows if we will want to stick around once they're done with school and I'm certain that I'm sitting on FU money.

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SavinMaven

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2020, 04:43:33 PM »
If you're considering Connecticut, you're not afraid of winter - and if you're outdoorsy you might find you really enjoy snowshoeing, tubing, skiing, etc., so I would recommend considering the upper Midwest (MI, WI, MN). Plenty of LCOL areas near some significant metros that might fit the bill.

Whomever it was up there that said this is currently an unsolvable problems because there are too many variables had a good point. Do you have any parameters by which you could narrow down? i.e., instead of finding a spot you like and then figuring out what you "have to" pay to buy there, how about setting a price - since your lifestyle and income goals are your most well-defined variables - and then figuring out where you 'can' live based on what you can pay?

talltexan

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2020, 12:10:01 PM »
Upper MW winters are brutal and relentless. But if you can handle them, there's plenty of evidence that people in Minnesota are among the happiest anywhere.

joe189man

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2020, 05:52:17 PM »
colorado has great weather, and some good schools, property tax is super low, towns like fort collins  may fit your bill

ysette9

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2020, 10:00:49 PM »
colorado has great weather, and some good schools, property tax is super low, towns like fort collins  may fit your bill
Just be sure to slather on the sunblock. The UV there is intense.

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Help us avoid a financial mistake - U.S. return at 40!
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2020, 03:45:47 PM »
As a result, we have been able to accumulate a net worth of around $1.1m. This is made up of approximately $850K cash

OP's stash of 1.1m throws off an annual income of $40k at 4%. 

not even close...

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!