Author Topic: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here  (Read 11476 times)

duyen

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Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« on: October 01, 2019, 10:11:54 PM »
Hello Everyone

I (40) and my wife (38) are immigrants from India who have been living in the US for all our working lives. We have two kids ages 10 and 8. We currently live in a HCOLA and try to be as frugal as possible.

Our total take home (including 401k and other contributions) is 220k and our expenses come to about 72k. Our current invested networth is 850k. We don't own a home and are good renting. At a 7% market return, here is my projected networth growth by end of each year

2019: 900k
2020: 1.1m
2021: 1.35m
2022: 1.6m
2023: 1.87m
2024: 2.1m
2025: 2.46m
2026: 2.8m
2027: 3.1m

So about 4 years to a first FIRE number and 8 years to good relatively fatter FIRE number. Most of our income is from my high paying job and I don't know how long I will have it. If I lose this, my journey will be much longer (as I most likely will get a contracting position that will drop our take home from 220 to 110). More likely (considering the probability of losing the high pay job and my health issues), I will end up at 1.9m to be reached anywhere from 4 to 7 years

I have health issues (diabetes and others) and I am mostly tired and have body pains (side effects of meds that I am on). Also I have never liked going to work and getting myself motivated to be at work (especially monday mornings) is getting pretty hard. My work is not really stressful, just the regular problems but I am just tired of doing this for more years

Main Question: I really love US for the freedom, privacy (I'm an introvert and this is really important) and overall comfortable life here. Ideally I want to be able to retire here. On the other hand if I go back to India, I can be retired right now. My elder kid is also moving into the teenage rebellion phase and we are worried that if she grows up here she may not even settle well in life. In India the society is hierarchical and kids are disciplined at school and they end up working hard to do well in academics. Here are the pros and cons that I see

Moving to India:
Pros:
  • Retire Now on what I have plus 300k USD in real estate in India
  • Here in US my kids will have to find a job when they grow up. In India they will give their best but if they don't do well in their education, they can happily live on the inheritance that I pass on
Cons:
  • Relatives, Parents, society are involved in your life a lot more in India. Hard to stay away
  • It is a male dominated society where my kids after marriage can find it hard; Problems with husband, in-laws etc
  • Law is not strong as here and if you run into problems (e.g., someone builds a house in your land) it can be hard and slow to get it resolved legally. In general too the systems are inefficient and any work with public offices take a long time

Staying in US
Pros:

  • Comfortable Life, Privacy, Good Law and feel safer. Our family of four can live a pretty tight knit safe life without needing to depend or interact with other people much
  • My kids both girls will have equal rights and can walk out of a troublesome marriage or relation if need be easily
  • Good healthcare and access to latest knowledge and stuff before rest of the world
Cons:
  • I have to work longer to be able to retire
  • My kids will have to be successful in getting good job when they grow up, otherwise it will be pretty miserable on minimum wage or low income
  • More chances of kids becoming more rebellious and more astray not getting successful

I understand that this is a decision that I need to make but would like to see your inputs. Given my concerns what do you think is the best choice for me? I need to make the choice in the next year or so, otherwise it will become harder for my elder kid to adjust in India (both were born in US and never lived in India).
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 10:31:07 PM by duyen »

ysette9

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2019, 08:04:02 AM »
I am going to state up front that I am a woman and a US citizen so that will inherently give me a bias.

I have two girls and I am concerned about raising them in the US due to the deterioration of women’s basic human rights being under attack in this country. There is no f-ing way I would ever move them to a place where their place in the world was more at peril. I can hardly think of a greater disservice to my children.

As parents our job isn’t to give our kids everything they want in life because they spoils them and turns them into worthless brats. But I do feel we are obligated to provide them a reasonable shot at fulfilling their potential in life. You are proposing putting your needs (which are completely legit) ahead of your kids’. The future in India you describe for them is a second class citizens, where you think they can skip out on doing the hard work of being productive citizens of the world and just live the high life on your inheritance, provided they even have the autonomy as women to make decisions about what to do with their own money. To me that feels selfish. I am not saying that we should sacrifice all for our kids. It is a balance and should take the need of both parents and kids into consideration. I think things get off balance when either one or the other takes complete precedence. Parents should never sacrifice all for their kids and neither should they put their own kids’ figure at jeopardy for their own goals.

If you had framed this as how much better your kids would be in India then that would be a different conversation. We might reasonably disagree there and that is fine. But even you don’t see a better future for them there. Then needing to work and get an education to be self-sufficient adults in America is a Good Thing. That is how people become productive and lead happy lives. They have lots of opportunities here in front of them. Please don’t sacrifice that.

ysette9

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2019, 08:25:17 AM »
Also, by your own accounting you are four years from FIRE. That really isn’t long and gives you lots of options. You could hold out two more years and then go part time to just cover expenses and let the investments grow. You could move to a slightly less expensive area (think Seattle instead of the Bay Area, or Fremont instead of Sunnyvale if you are in the Bay Area and want to stay). Just think outside the box a little bit for smaller adjustments to get you what you need instead of burning everything to the ground.

tamuaggie2011

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2019, 09:33:08 AM »
Without going down rabbit holes I strongly disagree with ysette on concerns women's rights, but I definitely agree with her that you are much closer to FIRE here than you think you are.

Based on your provided yearly expenses number you would need $1.8 million at a 4% withdrawal rate so around 2023. However, a big key factor here to is that one has to assume a significant portion of that 72k is from providing for your children. Eventually they will be grown and taking care of themselves as you have stated so you could feel even more secure in the $1.8 million target.

While there are plenty of cultural differences between here and in India, and it is true they can have a large impact on a person's behavior do not forget that the largest influence on kid's behavior will come from you and DW. Raise them and support them how ya'll see fit and show them the values you want to instill and they will most likely take hold of them. Especially as both kids are about to approach pre-teen years arguably the most influential time frame.

Hope some of this helps

Ozlady

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2019, 05:25:19 PM »
Hi

Is there a reason why you cannot relocate to a lower cost of living city in the US and retire?

Sometimes it helps to think back closely on the reasons why you and your wife migrated out of India in the first place...

If you move back to India and it does not work out, then would it be "traumatic" for the girls to readjust again back to the US?

I echo Yvette's reasonings above...i know 2 Indian women in my son's soccer team...one is a doctor who suffered horrendously at the hands of her hubby (mental abuse)...it took her so many years and courage to walk out of the marriage due to the stigma of single motherhood in your culture...(the hubby could not accept that his wife was smarter and more successful than her)

Another one is a lawyer who was matchmaked by her parents;cowered husband was the only son with 4 sisters and a dragon of a mother in law...she could not go anywhere without a chaperone in India and was essentially "trapped" at home; only in Australia did she walk out of her marriage...in India she told me that would be taboo...her own family threatened to disown her for the shame...only in recent years did she gain her confidence back...(the useless husband was forced by the mother to remarry within 1 year)...

Footnote: i would NEVER risk my daughters' happiness...

mjr

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2019, 06:41:50 PM »
I've been to India for work more times than I can count.  You're from there, you know it better than I.  I can't understand how you'd even consider going back there.

I have two girls and I am concerned about raising them in the US due to the deterioration of women’s basic human rights being under attack in this country.

Such a statement is beyond my belief...

imolina

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2019, 09:29:16 PM »
My husband is from India, and there is no way I would ever live there. It is a nice country but there are many cons: corruption, disrespect for women, pollution is a huge problem in the big cities and even in the small cities the garbage and environmental damage is bad, bad infrastructure, etc. Also very competitive for the kids to study in good schools and get good jobs, etc. It would be very hard for children to adjust. My husband is from India but grew up in UAE, and he cannot live in India, he got used to the nice infrastructure, clean cities, etc. His sister is living in India but she is having very hard time to adjust even though she is a doctor.

If I were you, I would stay in USA at least till the children finish college and then decide, maybe you can retire to India with your wife, and your daughters can stay in USA pursuing their career.

expatartist

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2019, 09:58:00 PM »
Hi

Is there a reason why you cannot relocate to a lower cost of living city in the US and retire?

LCOL cities in the US tend to have communities which are less welcoming to immigration. In the Southern US there are Latin American and some East Asian communities but few AFAIK from South Asia. Culturally it can be a quite difficult fit.

Best of luck OP, take care of your health and hope you can manage those four years so your family can have the maximum options.

duyen

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2019, 11:29:20 PM »
Great and truly honest replies everyone. Thank you.

When I think of it, the only reason I want to go back is cost of living. It costs like 1500$ per month in India for a family (assuming you send kids to private international schools). While in a LCOLA here in US, it will cost like 4000$ per month. Essentially a difference of about 2500$ which is like 750k more in networth. If I manage to retain my current job for next 3 years I'll cover that networth difference.

Even in India, if you have enough money, you can avoid interactions with government and society and stay reasonably happy. But I don't know if my kids too can avoid those interactions and stay happy. As someone suggested it may be better to think of India once our kids are out of home. Since me and my wife grew up there, it won't be as bad for us especially for the low cost of living. It will also enable us to give most of the money in US to our kids (especially if they are not settled) and just take some 300k USD and go back.

The challenge will be to raise our kids here in such a way that they do well in their school and get a good job. After 3 years or so, I am planning to leave my high paying job and find a job elsewhere in a LCOLA in US. Do you have any good recommendations on places good for raising kids (so that they don't become brats)?

All in all, I am getting a feeling that wherever I go, I can only affect the happiness in my kids' life only a little. They are essentially on their own once they grow up. Even if we want to get involved or help, we won't be able to help them with their work pressures or relationship issues or other problems they might face.

cloudsail

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2019, 12:03:21 AM »
One of my daughter's school friends last year had just moved here from India. Her mom was not Indian herself; she was Malaysian and married an Indian husband. Her husband was here on a short-term contract, with the option to continue working here or go back to India after a year. At the end of the year, she told me that she definitely wanted to return to India. She just liked the life more there. Her daughter had a spot in a good private school. They had a nice apartment, a lot of domestic help, etc.

All this is to say, to each their own. The decision to live somewhere, anywhere, is incredibly personal. It boils down to: where do you see yourself being happier? And this may be a hard question to answer.

Also, before a certain age kids can pretty much relocate anywhere and continue to thrive. Young children are very adaptable. For myself, I'd be concerned about pollution, etc., but different people are concerned about different things. There are environmental toxins aplenty in the U.S. too.

To the OP: how about some extended trips to the homeland? Save up some vacation and take the family for a month or so? Maybe even enroll the kids in some local camps or week-long programs to see how they like it.

BTW, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of spoiled brats in India too. How your kids turn out has very little to do with the country they're living in.

ysette9

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2019, 01:34:02 AM »
Hi

Is there a reason why you cannot relocate to a lower cost of living city in the US and retire?

LCOL cities in the US tend to have communities which are less welcoming to immigration. In the Southern US there are Latin American and some East Asian communities but few AFAIK from South Asia. Culturally it can be a quite difficult fit.

Best of luck OP, take care of your health and hope you can manage those four years so your family can have the maximum options.
Exactly, which is why I made my comment earlier about considering somewhat less expensive areas near where they are already. In the Bay Area both Fremont and Sunnyvale have large Indian communities, but homes in Sunnyvale are ~$2M where Fremont is ~$1M. Yeah, the commute is going to be worse because it is more affordable, but you are only talking about four years, so it is doable.

ysette9

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2019, 01:38:56 AM »
To the comment above, there is a pretty big difference between Malaysia and the US, so the friend’s wife’s perspective is not going to be the same.

In any case, personally I think by far parents have the most impact on whether kids become spoiled brats or not. You prevent that by giving them loving but firm limits and sticking to them. You don’t give them everything in life but set expectations and make them work. School, chores, volunteer, whatever. The more modestly you raise them the less likely to become entitled brats. So I actually feel in some ways staying where you are works to that end the best because they aren’t going to be living a life of ease with servants doing all the housework or in a community where they are richer than many others and able to afford the fanciest clothes or gadgets. Just something to keep in mind.

marty998

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2019, 02:42:03 AM »

Main Question: I really love US for the freedom, privacy (I'm an introvert and this is really important) and overall comfortable life here. Ideally I want to be able to retire here. On the other hand if I go back to India, I can be retired right now. My elder kid is also moving into the teenage rebellion phase and we are worried that if she grows up here she may not even settle well in life. In India the society is hierarchical and kids are disciplined at school and they end up working hard to do well in academics. Here are the pros and cons that I see

Moving to India:
Pros:
  • Retire Now on what I have plus 300k USD in real estate in India
  • Here in US my kids will have to find a job when they grow up. In India they will give their best but if they don't do well in their education, they can happily live on the inheritance that I pass on
Cons:
  • Relatives, Parents, society are involved in your life a lot more in India. Hard to stay away
  • It is a male dominated society where my kids after marriage can find it hard; Problems with husband, in-laws etc
  • Law is not strong as here and if you run into problems (e.g., someone builds a house in your land) it can be hard and slow to get it resolved legally. In general too the systems are inefficient and any work with public offices take a long time

Staying in US
Pros:

  • Comfortable Life, Privacy, Good Law and feel safer. Our family of four can live a pretty tight knit safe life without needing to depend or interact with other people much
  • My kids both girls will have equal rights and can walk out of a troublesome marriage or relation if need be easily
  • Good healthcare and access to latest knowledge and stuff before rest of the world
Cons:
  • I have to work longer to be able to retire
  • My kids will have to be successful in getting good job when they grow up, otherwise it will be pretty miserable on minimum wage or low income
  • More chances of kids becoming more rebellious and more astray not getting successful

Good lord your kids will rebel hard if you take them to India. You live in country that is arguably the best in the world in terms of freedom of choice to do whatever you want in life if you work hard enough for it. I've been to India once as a kid. No interest in ever going back thank you very much. About as close as I want to get now is the local curry house.

Not that I usually care about being PC and what not but the assumption on your kids getting married is an interesting one. Your daughters may choose not to marry, or may be "L" on the LGBTI rainbow. In which case your worries over husbands might be turn out to be quite different when all is said and done.

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2019, 03:00:12 AM »
I feel icky about all the comments about how awful India is. I have never lived there but I visited once for 3 weeks almost 20 years ago and it was magical. I would love to go back. But then I have no family ties and would obviously be a westerner if I ever lived there.  I might be a lot more adventurous than the average person?! Also about the comments about how awful it is for women, they had a woman in charge of their country 50 years ago, I am still holding my breath for a woman to be elected to the top post in the US. So it’s all relative.
I similarly find icky comments about how awful low cost of living areas of the US are. Have you ever actually lived in one? I have lived from super expensive large city (usually held up as super liberal haven) to a tiny town in the middle of nowhere and a bunch in between in the us. I saw much more troublesome opinions and actions in the large city. It’s all relative. Not saying you should chose one or the other, but the stereotypes that completely don’t mesh with my experience were just driving me nutty.

Metalcat

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2019, 05:25:15 AM »
Yeah, the comments about India are always pretty intense here for some reason. India is a huge place with all sorts of interesting cultural environments to live in.

I have several Canadian friends living in India who prefer it there over a lot of places in the US. The US is also huge with a wide variety of environments. You would really have to compare two particular locations.

OP, only you can decide if staying in the US is worth more years of work that you dislike. However, as others have pointed out, you are posting very large numbers that are higher than most of our American members are aiming for.

Perhaps do a case study and see if there's a way to retire in the US on much much less than you think. Or you could consider a CoastFI situation where you retire from your current work and earn just enough to cover expenses while your investments are left alone to grow.

You have a lot of options between
1: retire in India
2: save to 3+M and retire in an extremely expensive city in the US

Expand your options and figure out what will make you and your family the most happy.


Metalcat

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2019, 05:32:29 AM »
Also about the comments about how awful it is for women, they had a woman in charge of their country 50 years ago, I am still holding my breath for a woman to be elected to the top post in the US. So it’s all relative.

Except...she was everything Trump wishes he could be.
I'd rather hold my breath.

newloginuser

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2019, 07:26:32 AM »
Can you do your job remotely? You mention being an introvert; I'm just wondering if this also translate into your work.

BicycleB

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2019, 12:31:54 PM »
You can stay in the US and move to a cheaper place if you want to quit your job. Heck, Austin's cheaper than Silicon Valley and has no state income tax.

You could also move to Portugal if you wanted. Apparently welcoming, safer, much cheaper than Silicon Valley... income of about $25k/adult is enough to get a residency visa plus 10 years of tax breaks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owMNL3FgjqA

Still, it sounds like there is a large increase in your financial strength available in just a few years. Given your job is uncertain, it's possible that grinding out the next 2 to 4 years would still help your future a lot. At 1.9M, the four year mark, you'd be able to pick any option instead of just the cheapest ones. Once you stop working, you may be grateful for the additional power.

Also, how much to do enjoy your time away from work and what do you do with it? If you have no clear direction, it's possible FIRE wouldn't help your emotional state as much as you currently suppose. As a FIREd person, I can tell you personally that it is easier than you think to slide into passive habits that slowly weaken you. Meanwhile, your emotional state may fail to improve the way you assume it will. My suggestion is to prepare first.

Whatever you're looking for, I urge you not to quit yet, but instead to start proactively exploring what you really want. I get that you may feel tired and discouraged, slogging along, and that a break sounds enticing. Not going to work again sounds enticing. But you can and should explore now what lies beyond that, because exploring may awaken enough energy and hope in you that the next few years become much more pleasant then you now imagine. And the exploration may sort out your options very differently than making decisions in your current mindset.

Also, if you are currently not brimming with excitement and energy, consider trying some counseling. You're about to pivot from worker-earner to daily freedom because of emotional resaons, so use every tool avaialable to open up emotional doors directly. If you haven't gotten professional counseling before, there is a chance that it will materially improve your experience of life, or lead to changes that do so over time. I've done it. At least give it a shot. Again, this can enrich the next few years while also improving the quality of your future FIRE experience.

Whatever you decide, good luck. Keep us posted on your thought process and next steps. 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 12:36:42 PM by BicycleB »

tamuaggie2011

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2019, 01:39:16 PM »
Quote
LCOL cities in the US tend to have communities which are less welcoming to immigration. In the Southern US there are Latin American and some East Asian communities but few AFAIK from South Asia. Culturally it can be a quite difficult fit.

Best of luck OP, take care of your health and hope you can manage those four years so your family can have the maximum options.

As someone who grew up in Dallas, and now works in Houston. Comments like this are so ridiculously overblown. There are large numbers of Indian and other groups of Asian people here and in other areas of the South. For about a third the cost of living too.

Now I doubt that OP wants to necessarily move his family across the country for a myriad of other reasons (moving kids can be it's own stressful event, he may have family/friends close by) but please stop the total nonsense. The Bay Area is literally one of the most expensive places in the country to live, if you are looking to "downsize" or get closer to being independent then moving (even to close suburbs in California as others have suggested) is definitely one of the best options.

the_fixer

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2019, 02:28:57 PM »
Most major metropolitan areas now days have several different cultural influences and you will find pockets of people with the same background.

Outside of Alpharetta GA I went to a desi festival while attending a training class, the area had a good community and they had a mall and several stores so it seemed like a lower cost of living area where one could feel like they fit in.

I am guessing you would have a hard time finding an area here in the US with the same mix as the bay area but even here in the Denver area we have a good mix of people.

Money is not everything, focus on what would be best for you and your family it will all work out.


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ctuser1

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2019, 04:05:25 PM »
OP. Let me offer one wild idea.

Come over to Connecticut.

As long as you avoid the Fairfield county, COL is very low. There are a couple of towns in the south of New Haven County where you can buy a reasonable house for anything between $200k (if you are a super-mustachian) - to $500k (4bedroom colonials). I am not yet truly Mustachian, so I splurged $280k for a house in one of these towns.

These towns have many people (like your's truly for part of the week) doing the train commute to NYC (i.e. you'll always have jobs available). This area is attracting a lot of millenials due to the relatively affordable housing, and is undergoing it's own mini-boom due to this.

CT itself has a sizable Indian community, but obviously not as high as NYC/NJ. But then you'd be spending a lot more for housing in any place in NYC/NJ with a half decent school district.

bluefish

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2019, 05:18:00 PM »

I have two girls and I am concerned about raising them in the US due to the deterioration of women’s basic human rights being under attack in this country. There is no f-ing way I would ever move them to a place where their place in the world was more at peril. I can hardly think of a greater disservice to my children.


I have to say that posts like this and some of the others that talk about terrible arranged marriages are frustrating. Like the US, India is a huge country with a vast range of lived experiences; for a certain segment of society, life in India is very good, as it is in America; for others, it can be a struggle for many different reasons, as is also true here.

Someone like the OP, who would be returning to India as part of the English-speaking upper/upper-middle class, and who clearly cares about his having his daughters grow up to be able to realize their desires, would have a different experience from someone who is trapped in an abusive marriage. Shockingly, his daughters might actually find their professional ambitions better realized in India than in the US. To give one example, in India, they can expect a different degree of family and paid support, meaning they are not forced to choose between childcare and professional ambition, as many American women are. See https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/28/world/asia/28iht-windia.html

Bernard

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2019, 06:32:15 PM »
I'm an immigrant from Europe. I lived in several European countries and briefly in India before moving to the United States. Given the choice between living off $1,500 retirement income in the US, basically in a cardboard box eating food out of the dumpster, and living a "normal" life in India, the Philippines, Thailand or Vietnam, I would choose the latter.

Your financial stash would allow you to live like a Maharaja in India. All the concerns you have, although valid in general, are non-existing in your case. But your retirement savings are higher than that of the overwhelming majority of Americans. I assume you are a US citizen with O.C.I. card in your pocket. If so, you could retire tomorrow and live a wonderful upper middle class life about anywhere in the United States outside the excessively expensive HCOL areas, namely Silicon Valley, etc. If you keep saving, you'll be able to live like a King in the United States as well. What you are dealing with is the proverbial first world problem.

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2019, 07:44:48 PM »
Given the choice between living off $1,500 retirement income in the US, basically in a cardboard box eating food out of the dumpster, and living a "normal" life in India, the Philippines, Thailand or Vietnam, I would choose the latter.

LOL, as someone who has lived on less than $1,500 a month in a HCOL (and currently doing so quite luxuriously) I can confidently say you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

duyen

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2019, 09:36:36 PM »
Thanks all.

I certainly have enough stash and am in a good job to be able to retire in the US. Moving to LCOL areas in the US is a good option and am considering it. As per MMM, a family can retire on a paid house plus 750k in invested assets. His documented living expenses are well under those numbers. After a few months I can very well move to a LCOL area (Connecticut as someone suggested) and buy a home and have the rest invested to be FI. Then continue working if I feel like.

College tuition seems to cost like 10k per year (excluding living expenses). We will be able to manage that too if we rent closer to the college where our kids go so that living expenses are taken care of.

Living in India isn't that bad except the need to deal with society, relatives and people more. This especially becomes painful if you are an introvert. Also for women it is definitely difficult. There is a clear hierarchy in the society between men and women, parents and children, boss and employee, rich and poor, police and common man. No matter how much I take care of my kids, there's no guarantee that once they are married they will be happy.

Despite all this, I don't mind retiring there myself. I can avoid people and stay happy. But with kids it is a different equation altogether.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 11:39:51 PM by duyen »

duyen

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2019, 09:38:48 PM »
Can you do your job remotely? You mention being an introvert; I'm just wondering if this also translate into your work.

I would love to if I can do that. It is not easy to find those jobs though. Once I reach more safety will explore that option

Bernard

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2019, 09:03:31 PM »
Given the choice between living off $1,500 retirement income in the US, basically in a cardboard box eating food out of the dumpster, and living a "normal" life in India, the Philippines, Thailand or Vietnam, I would choose the latter.

LOL, as someone who has lived on less than $1,500 a month in a HCOL (and currently doing so quite luxuriously) I can confidently say you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I have a pretty thick skin, but, frankly, I'm taking offense to this. I live in a HCOL area, where a 200 square foot garden shed rents for $1,050. In fact, there was just an article on this in last week's papers:

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/real-estate/story/2019-10-01/would-you-pay-1-050-a-month-to-rent-this-university-heights-shed

Please explain to a stupid 61-year-old how you can live a luxurious life in a HCOL area for $1,500 a month. As they say, you're never too old to learn.

BicycleB

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2019, 09:09:01 PM »
(takes out pan, puts oil in pan, drops in popcorn)

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2019, 09:08:57 AM »
(takes out pan, puts oil in pan, drops in popcorn)

Smart man, on a $1,500/month budget that trumps buying the microwavable bags ;) What are your preferred seasonings?

Given the choice between living off $1,500 retirement income in the US, basically in a cardboard box eating food out of the dumpster, and living a "normal" life in India, the Philippines, Thailand or Vietnam, I would choose the latter.

@Bernard, two things before I attempt to explain my response. Luxury is relative, and not all HCOL areas are created equal. While your bubble of SOCAL might be a special place in terms of extremely HCOL area, from your first few posts on these forums I gather that you at one pointed rented a home with your wife for $1,500 a month. I posit that not everyone needs an entire SFH (even a smaller one) to be happy, and most of the space in a typical home gets unused 90% of the time. The $1,500/month figure I'm describing here is per person, in a two person household.

So personally......

$550 - 1/2 of the rent on a ~400 sq/ft apartment, with additional storage and a large backyard. Since this is part of a larger SFH that's been divided into 3 dwellings, it includes all utilities and internet.
$150 - groceries - shopping almost exclusively at Aldi/Trader Joes. We cook a lot from scratch, do eat meat/dairy almost daily. Do NOT buy organic everything, but do focus on fresh wholesome food.
$200 - insurance, this breaks down to $100 for health/dental, $75 for car, and the rest for renters. If we downsized to one car the cost would drop here. The health is subsidized by employer but at this income/spending level an ACA plan would cost about the same in NY.
$20 - gym membership
$50 - Cell phone - includes the amortization cost of replacing phone every 2-3 years.
$30 - house hold misc - think cleaning supplies, light bulbs, and other household consumables
~$500 - entertainment, travel, eating out, hobbies, gifts, fuel

Some comments on the last spending category - creativity and optimization go a looooooong way.

Travel hacking - game changer for us, we haven't paid for a flight/hotel in years, and travel quite a bit (5 weeks in Europe this summer + numerous shorter weekend trips all over the USA)
Bank Account Churning - 30 minutes of work per month to generate several hundred dollars in income which offsets some hobby purchases.
Hobbies that focus on being outside and in nature, which indeed may have some startup costs but otherwise cost very little....mine are;

Weight lifting
Running
Cycling
XC mountain biking
Reading - library
audio books - library
movies - library
gardening
cooking
entertaining - our backyard is awesome for bonfires/bbq's/potlucks/hosting family/friends.

For electronics and other durable goods, we tend to buy used and resell to make room for a new item. Most recent example is my triathlon watch. I purchased an open box Garmin 920xt in 2015 for $300, used it daily for 4 years, and resold last week for $125. Rolled that money into an open box (new condition) Garmin 935 for $300 and will once again resell when it's time to upgrade.

The past few years I've spent a lot more time on hobbies and much less time on work. The hobbies I enjoy involve training/participating in groups, which has led to some incredible friendships and social connections. This has led to the ability of bartering some of my time and skills for other things that are valuable to me. I taught someone to MTB, they take me out on their $250k boat. I coached someone through professional landmines, and they regularly want to take me out to lunch to shoot the breeze and ask for advice. I volunteer at local triathlons and foot races, earn credits to race for free whilst helping the athletic community I am a part of.

Now that I am semi-FIRING at 32, I plan to extend this to Habitat for Humanity, and donate my time and in return learn some valuable skills that could be used in the future to househack/fix and flip a live in project, built out a camper van, etc......while meeting other like-minded people who may open other doors down the road.

By your own admission you've read every MMM blog post, so you know that it sometimes takes out of the box thinking to achieve this. It also takes a little bit of introspection and mindset shift to figure out what is truly important to you, but living an incredible life on a relatively shoestring budget isn't that hard with some practice. It's not for everyone though..... but I can tell you as someone living in one of the HCOL areas in the USA, on exactly $1,500/month, I don't live in a cardboard box, nor eat out of a dumpster. I've detailed my expenses for 5 years now (old journal should not be hard to find and ran from 2014 - July of this year). I also encourage you to take a peek over at the ERE boards. Many there have found creative ways to slash costs in very HCOL areas by using some social capital.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 09:12:16 AM by 2Birds1Stone »

Metalcat

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2019, 10:09:53 AM »
Given the choice between living off $1,500 retirement income in the US, basically in a cardboard box eating food out of the dumpster, and living a "normal" life in India, the Philippines, Thailand or Vietnam, I would choose the latter.

LOL, as someone who has lived on less than $1,500 a month in a HCOL (and currently doing so quite luxuriously) I can confidently say you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I have a pretty thick skin, but, frankly, I'm taking offense to this. I live in a HCOL area, where a 200 square foot garden shed rents for $1,050. In fact, there was just an article on this in last week's papers:

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/real-estate/story/2019-10-01/would-you-pay-1-050-a-month-to-rent-this-university-heights-shed

Please explain to a stupid 61-year-old how you can live a luxurious life in a HCOL area for $1,500 a month. As they say, you're never too old to learn.

Put simply: you specifically said "in the US", not "in an HCOL area of the US while trying to maintain all of the trappings of a normal middle class life".

Saying that you can't sustain your preferred lifestyle in your preferred location at $1500/mo is very very different from saying that a normal life can't be lived in the US on that amount.

So why on earth would you take any offense?

Bernard

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2019, 12:00:43 PM »
Quote
. . . .
$550 - 1/2 of the rent on a ~400 sq/ft apartment, with additional storage and a large backyard. Since this is part of a larger SFH that's been divided into 3 dwellings, it includes all utilities and internet.
$150 - groceries - shopping almost exclusively at Aldi/Trader Joes. We cook a lot from scratch, do eat meat/dairy almost daily . . . .

So you lived a luxurious life on about 200 square feet. Cool. I have an employee who lives with his wife and 8-month-old in a roach infested 400 square foot dump of a house, and his rent is $1,250 now. His wife is really having a hard time with the roaches being everywhere, and the landlord doesn't care. If we brought this to the attention of the authorities, they would red-tape the house and that family would be homeless. That's what we are dealing with here in SoCal. People live with several roommates in garages. The O.P. is a family of 4. I just imagine who life for them would be with 4 people and other roommates on 200 square feet. What a luxurious life that would be! At that point, they may as well move back to India, where living accommodations like that are normal.

Yes, I lived for 13+ years in a beautiful midtown home and the rent was $1,400 initially, $1,500 later. Then, in 2012, the place sold for $475K. A couple years later it sold for $615K again. Today it could be rented out for close to $3K.

While I nod in regard to your other expenses, the big elephant in the room in a HCOL area is housing cost. And I still maintain that a family of 4 will not be able to live a halfway decent life on $1,500 in the US. Is it possible to live off $1,500 in the US? Sure. But it's just getting by in Idaho or Texas or some places in the South. But it's not a great way of living.

cloudsail

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2019, 08:31:35 PM »
Quote
  The $1,500/month figure I'm describing here is per person, in a two person household.

Then your household expenses are $3000/month. While that's still low for a HCOL area, I think it's kind of disingenuous to divide it by half and say that you can live quite comfortably on $1500.

By that logic, the OP with his household of four should be looking at $6000/month.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2019, 09:05:32 PM »
@cloudsail, I disagree. I was just trying to be transparent that these numbers are for my own situation. You can extrapolate however you like, though I doubt you need to double every single expense because you have 4 members in a HH vs. 2. Economies of scale and all that jazz......

Yes, my SO and I spend ~$35k/yr all in, in one the most expensive parts of the country :)

The budget has a lot of fat in it, which aligns with our values.

I never implied that a family of 4 should be able to live on $1,500/month.


BicycleB

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2019, 10:41:49 PM »
Quote
. . . .
$550 - 1/2 of the rent on a ~400 sq/ft apartment, with additional storage and a large backyard. Since this is part of a larger SFH that's been divided into 3 dwellings, it includes all utilities and internet.
$150 - groceries - shopping almost exclusively at Aldi/Trader Joes. We cook a lot from scratch, do eat meat/dairy almost daily . . . .

So you lived a luxurious life on about 200 square feet. Cool. I have an employee who lives with his wife and 8-month-old in a roach infested 400 square foot dump of a house, and his rent is $1,250 now. His wife is really having a hard time with the roaches being everywhere, and the landlord doesn't care. If we brought this to the attention of the authorities, they would red-tape the house and that family would be homeless. That's what we are dealing with here in SoCal. People live with several roommates in garages. The O.P. is a family of 4. I just imagine who life for them would be with 4 people and other roommates on 200 square feet. What a luxurious life that would be! At that point, they may as well move back to India, where living accommodations like that are normal.

Yes, I lived for 13+ years in a beautiful midtown home and the rent was $1,400 initially, $1,500 later. Then, in 2012, the place sold for $475K. A couple years later it sold for $615K again. Today it could be rented out for close to $3K.

While I nod in regard to your other expenses, the big elephant in the room in a HCOL area is housing cost. And I still maintain that a family of 4 will not be able to live a halfway decent life on $1,500 in the US. Is it possible to live off $1,500 in the US? Sure. But it's just getting by in Idaho or Texas or some places in the South. But it's not a great way of living.

You are moving the goalposts in nearly every comment. 2Birds clearly said 400 feet for 2 people, plus additional special-use spaces. Scaled up to 4 people, that’s obviously 800 sq ft or more, not 200.

The OP has 4 person family, yes - but also has 36k+income if you apply 4% SWR to 900k stash. Personally I think he’d better off working some more, as I advised him, but the only person in this thread trying trying to put 4 people on a $1500/mo income in a HCOL area is you, via the straw man you conjured up in your own post.

I am saddened by your employee’s cockroach-infested dwelling, and respect that you have explored at least one way to improve it. Is there any chance you could give them enough of a raise to afford a better place?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 10:45:42 PM by BicycleB »

cloudsail

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2019, 11:19:31 PM »
@cloudsail, I disagree. I was just trying to be transparent that these numbers are for my own situation. You can extrapolate however you like, though I doubt you need to double every single expense because you have 4 members in a HH vs. 2. Economies of scale and all that jazz......

Yes, my SO and I spend ~$35k/yr all in, in one the most expensive parts of the country :)

The budget has a lot of fat in it, which aligns with our values.

I never implied that a family of 4 should be able to live on $1,500/month.

I was trying to make the point that just as it doesn't make sense to double 2-people expenses for a 4-people household, you also cannot halve those 2-people expenses for one person.

You can say "I live on $3000/month" and be rightly proud of that. But to halve that number and say that you live on $1500 is just not true.

Unique User

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2019, 12:57:22 PM »
The Raleigh area, especially in the Raleigh/Durham/Morrisville quadrant near RTP has a large immigrant population including Indian.  One of the things we liked best about our daughter's high school was the exposure to many different cultures and backgrounds.  Low cost of living, reasonable college costs, mild winters, low taxes and many, many free activities.

I work for an Indian company and even in a professional setting here in the US, I can easily see the disregard for women in the culture.   

Most major metropolitan areas now days have several different cultural influences and you will find pockets of people with the same background.

Outside of Alpharetta GA I went to a desi festival while attending a training class, the area had a good community and they had a mall and several stores so it seemed like a lower cost of living area where one could feel like they fit in.

I am guessing you would have a hard time finding an area here in the US with the same mix as the bay area but even here in the Denver area we have a good mix of people.

Money is not everything, focus on what would be best for you and your family it will all work out.


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BicycleB

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2019, 01:00:21 PM »
^But... he is not responsible for both people's expenses, only his. He and his girlfriend split the rent, so he pays half; the rest of his expenses are individually his. She pays her own expenses, splitting only the rent. Thus, 2Birds does have an individual expense, which he tracks - and during the most recent 12 months, it was just under $1500.

I don't have a girlfriend, but I share space with people by renting out rooms in my house. That decision is why I don't need a job, and am FIREd. It's an individual consumption decision on my part. Sharing a dwelling with other people who pay their own bills doesn't make me responsible for their bills.

Or are you assuming that because they have a male-female romantic relationship, he's automatically responsible for her bills somehow?

He's been pretty explicit for a long time in his journal about who pays what. His summary statements here are backed up there pretty well, at least to a casual reader.


Itsmylife

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2019, 07:59:24 PM »
Longtime lurker here.  This is my first post.

I grew up in India and moved to the US when I was 22 - way too long ago.  I have lived here in the US longer than in India.  I visit India every year for 6 - 8 weeks and except for a couple of years in between, I have been successful in keeping up with my annual visits.  You mentioned that you have two daughters, I have one daughter.  As a female born in India I have to disagree with your assessment regarding your daughters future in India. 

I would like to address some of the points you bring up in your post:

It is a male dominated society where my kids after marriage can find it hard; Problems with husband, in-laws etc
And the US isn't?  Problems with husband, in-laws, etc - living/marrying here in the US magically does not prevent that from happening.      One of the cons that you mentioned, society being more involved in peoples lives can be more of a support in this kind of situation. 

My kids both girls will have equal rights and can walk out of a troublesome marriage or relation if need be easily[/b
Girls have equal rights in India too.  And divorce is getting more common, easier to obtain and acceptable in society now than it was 25 years ago.

Our family of four can live a pretty tight knit safe life without needing to depend or interact with other people much
How do your girls feel about not interacting with other people?  If they are anything like mine, they want don't want to interact with family at all :-)

More chances of kids becoming more rebellious and more astray not getting successful
Again, why would living in the US increase chances of becoming more rebellious etc.  I know plenty of girls growing up in India who are rebellious and have gone astray and are not successful - depending on what day it is, I would include myself in that list :-)

It seems like you are reaching these conclusions based on your own experiences.  I would urge you take a longer trip with your family before making a decision - you may be pleasantly surprised.  Or you/they may hate it intensely and never ever want to visit.  It is a decision that you will have to make as a family.  1.1 million US Dollars will be enough for you to retire on luxuriously.  You mentioned health issues - you can hire a yoga teacher to come home everyday and work with you, a cook who can prepare every meal just before you consume it, grow your own vegetables in your backyard :-)

Personally I am torn between retiring here in the US and India.  Ideally in 10 years I would like to spend summer and fall in the US and winter and spring in India.  But that would mean missing out on Christmas and snow, St Patricks Day, Easter and all the fun in the US and Dassera/Diwali in India!  It is a difficult decision.



cloudsail

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2019, 10:49:53 PM »
^But... he is not responsible for both people's expenses, only his. He and his girlfriend split the rent, so he pays half; the rest of his expenses are individually his. She pays her own expenses, splitting only the rent. Thus, 2Birds does have an individual expense, which he tracks - and during the most recent 12 months, it was just under $1500.

I don't have a girlfriend, but I share space with people by renting out rooms in my house. That decision is why I don't need a job, and am FIREd. It's an individual consumption decision on my part. Sharing a dwelling with other people who pay their own bills doesn't make me responsible for their bills.

Or are you assuming that because they have a male-female romantic relationship, he's automatically responsible for her bills somehow?

He's been pretty explicit for a long time in his journal about who pays what. His summary statements here are backed up there pretty well, at least to a casual reader.

Okay, I'm not familiar with his individual situation. I just think that most people will agree when you share living expenses with someone, it usually doesn't mean that you automatically halve those expenses when you live alone. Most living expenses don't scale that way, everything from housing to phone to groceries to gym membership.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2019, 05:57:47 AM »
@cloudsail, most do, but not all.

We are on different cell carriers, go to different gyms (hers is paid by insurance). There are economies of scale with regards to housing, but as @BicycleB pointed out, that's what roommates are for! If I moved out of my $1,100 apartment, I could get into a 2 bedroom with a room mate for a little more than what I pay individually now, or move into a shared house such as BicycleB's since I don't mind living with other people. With groceries, it's a complicated matter. There is economy of scale, but we eat wildly different diets, her being allergic to lactose and eating mostly vegetarian, and myself living off of meat, dairy, and beer. So I don't think living with her saves me that much of food.

duyen

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2019, 10:19:39 PM »
To be honest being an immigrant, I definitely think I can live very frugally in the US even hitting the 1500 mark. This is what I would do

Just looked on apartments.com for cheapest rent in US and I came across Fort Smith, AR which has good schools and a 2 BR rents for 550$ per month. We also have other cheaper places (Missouri, Tennessee, Florida, North Dakota etc..) if Arizona's weather is an issue. Here are the expenses

Rent: 550
Grocery & Household: 450 (Our average as tracked on mint in our HCOLA is 500)
Utilities (incl. internet): 150 (Most apartments have water, sewer, trash paid)
Cell: 50
Health Insurance (Obama Care): 200
Transportation: 150
Clothes, Shoes, Other shopping: 250 (Our mint average: 300)
Kids expenses (Tutoring, classes): 250
Total: 2050

To this we can add any unexpected expenses of 200 per month (MMM has 200 for this category as well)
Eating out, Entertainment & Vacation: All of these are optional and fun expenses and will be spent as money is available

So all in all it seems pretty doable for a family to live on 2250$ per month which will come to ~27k yearly expenses (This matches closely to what MMM's family spending was).

To get to the 1500 number, I would do the below in this order
- Cut kids classes and tutoring (teach at home): -250
- Move to a 1 BR apartment for 400$ rent: -150
- Shop at thrift stores which brings shopping cost from 250 to 100: -150
- Grocery can be optimized by buying in bulk: -100
- Manage the unexpected expenses better: -50
- Sell the car and invest the capital and use uber and bike: -50

A bit uncomfortable but definitely doable.

Edit: Using medicaid instead of ACA will take out the 200 health insurance amount too which can be used to live in a 2BR instead of the 1BR with the total cost still under 1500
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 10:22:49 PM by duyen »

BicycleB

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2019, 11:13:46 AM »
@duyen, I don't think you will qualify for Medicaid because AFAIK Medicaid has an assets test. ACA is a better option for FIRE because it allows unlimited assets.

https://longtermcare.acl.gov/medicare-medicaid-more/medicaid/medicaid-eligibility/financial-requirements-assets.html

I like that you are getting detailed about your options! Keep going, and I'm sure you will be able to keep building a good life for you and your family.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 11:17:42 AM by BicycleB »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2019, 12:02:40 PM »
I love it @duyen....while you might not actually want to live like that, knowing that you can is a HUGE win. Now think about how much luxury an extra $500-1000/month from a part time job or larger stache provides with the right mindset!

FamilyGuy

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2019, 12:17:09 PM »
The Raleigh area, especially in the Raleigh/Durham/Morrisville quadrant near RTP has a large immigrant population including Indian.  One of the things we liked best about our daughter's high school was the exposure to many different cultures and backgrounds.  Low cost of living, reasonable college costs, mild winters, low taxes and many, many free activities.

I work for an Indian company and even in a professional setting here in the US, I can easily see the disregard for women in the culture.   

Most major metropolitan areas now days have several different cultural influences and you will find pockets of people with the same background.

Outside of Alpharetta GA I went to a desi festival while attending a training class, the area had a good community and they had a mall and several stores so it seemed like a lower cost of living area where one could feel like they fit in.

I am guessing you would have a hard time finding an area here in the US with the same mix as the bay area but even here in the Denver area we have a good mix of people.

Money is not everything, focus on what would be best for you and your family it will all work out.


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I live in RTP as well and agree with Unique User

namasteyall

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2019, 03:38:39 AM »
Also about the comments about how awful it is for women, they had a woman in charge of their country 50 years ago, I am still holding my breath for a woman to be elected to the top post in the US. So it’s all relative.

Except...she was everything Trump wishes he could be.
I'd rather hold my breath.

That Prime Minister won wars, was thrown out of office when she became nasty and jailed by Indians! Also she helped Bangladesh, (which was being starved and attacked, and when asked) . She gave 10 million + Bangladeshis (mostly Muslim) refuge in Kolkota. Another party got elected which was better. Yes, democracy is messy and not as efficient as (benevolent) dictatorships.... These days both may have their points!

Living in India is fun. My child went to 6 schools all over the world. Kids' joy and adjustment come from you. We rarely missed anything and tried to learn the local language, history, etc. We were thrilled to travel, enjoyed each country and looked on it as great. I immediately got into volunteer work, joined the local women's clubs, the country clubs, met a 100 expats and locals...it was wonderful. The kid was used to seeing Afghan, Indian, English, African,Turkish, US, etc. visitors (young and old), in the house and garden and now has pals worldwide.

For Indians with an income of say $2000 a month (and maybe some company perks!), life is wonderful. Medical care and schools are really good. You can have excellent appliances and/or helpers: your choice how to live. We really appreciated our house helpers. Family may or may not interfere but can be a great support. Like anywhere: up to you.  Also join a family club for inexpensive good food/sports and for socializing, meeting other professionals, etc.

Millions of Indian women work as Drs, lawyers, CEOs, bankers, professors, politicians, etc. and work late, travel alone, or with fe/male colleagues, marry/divorce who they please, have kids or not. Hardly anyone is coerced into marriage unless you are really poor or super rich.

Many foreigners live almost permanently in India from Israel, Norway, etc. Most well-off Indians go abroad only to study or to travel, not to immigrate. India's only problem is too many people... anyone who has limited breeding is doing ok. (Southern states have been on ZPG for some years.)

Most of us expats often continue living in several countries, accepting jobs wherever.

Another POV:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-foreigners-who-have-settled-in-India-feel-about-India-This-question-is-only-for-foreigners

College Stash

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2019, 10:05:00 AM »
I have two girls and I am concerned about raising them in the US due to the deterioration of women’s basic human rights being under attack in this country.

False. Things have improved decade by decade. Very unfair statement.

ysette9

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2019, 10:14:18 AM »
I have two girls and I am concerned about raising them in the US due to the deterioration of women’s basic human rights being under attack in this country.

False. Things have improved decade by decade. Very unfair statement.
“Grab ‘em by the pussy”

Metalcat

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2019, 12:47:08 PM »
Also about the comments about how awful it is for women, they had a woman in charge of their country 50 years ago, I am still holding my breath for a woman to be elected to the top post in the US. So it’s all relative.

Except...she was everything Trump wishes he could be.
I'd rather hold my breath.

That Prime Minister won wars, was thrown out of office when she became nasty and jailed by Indians!

Jailed by Indians, then shortly went back to being Prime Minister again for several years until she was assassinated by her own bodyguards.

ctuser1

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2019, 05:07:03 AM »
Jailed by Indians, then shortly went back to being Prime Minister again for several years until she was assassinated by her own bodyguards.

She is widely credited for preventing a genocide from becoming much bigger.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v11/d19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blood_Telegram:_Nixon,_Kissinger,_and_a_Forgotten_Genocide

For reference, what was then west Pakistan had completed the genocide of it's minorities (for fairness: as did some parts of North-Western India) in 40s and 50s. There were only 3% of non-Muslims left, rest were either killed, converted to Islam or chased away. A similar effort was under-way in what was then "East Pakistan".

The fact that 10%+ of minorities remain in Bangladesh can be credited, to a large degree, to that lady.

Yes, she probably did not do it out of the goodness of her heart, but rather to see Pakistan broken.

But who cares? Millions of lives saved is millions of lives saved. Saving so many lives would - in my mind - balance out many "host G7 at Mar-a-Lago" type of transgressions (but not thee more egregious moral ones) in my opinion.


Metalcat

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Re: Go back to India or work longer to FIRE here
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2019, 05:41:14 AM »
Jailed by Indians, then shortly went back to being Prime Minister again for several years until she was assassinated by her own bodyguards.

She is widely credited for preventing a genocide from becoming much bigger.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v11/d19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blood_Telegram:_Nixon,_Kissinger,_and_a_Forgotten_Genocide

For reference, what was then west Pakistan had completed the genocide of it's minorities (for fairness: as did some parts of North-Western India) in 40s and 50s. There were only 3% of non-Muslims left, rest were either killed, converted to Islam or chased away. A similar effort was under-way in what was then "East Pakistan".

The fact that 10%+ of minorities remain in Bangladesh can be credited, to a large degree, to that lady.

Yes, she probably did not do it out of the goodness of her heart, but rather to see Pakistan broken.

But who cares? Millions of lives saved is millions of lives saved. Saving so many lives would - in my mind - balance out many "host G7 at Mar-a-Lago" type of transgressions (but not thee more egregious moral ones) in my opinion.

I'm not going to debate this.
Someone implied that India electing a female leader was an indicator of progressiveness, and I was clarifying that it was more the result of an autocratic family dynasty, and that her rule did not end after she was arrested.

As for the good vs the bad, yep, there's a lot of complicated history there.