Author Topic: First Post - ready for the face punches  (Read 6813 times)

94Ag

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First Post - ready for the face punches
« on: February 22, 2017, 05:28:39 PM »
Hi all,

I've been lurking/reading for a couple days, and figure this is the best way to intro myself/get started.

44 yo, single income filing jointly, Married to a SAHM, 2 kids (14 and 11), 2 dogs.  We live in Tx.
Would love to retire (FIRE?) in 7 years, after 2nd kid off to college
I'd say we've done "above-average" as far as saving, but no where near MND's PAWs and light-years away from MMM-level.

Here goes, please be blunt, I deserve it.

Salary/Wages for earner #1   $14,708
Pretax Health Ins.   $225
Pretax Vision/Dental Ins.   $37
Healthcare Flex Savings Acct. (FSA)   $167
Employer-sponsored HSA   $63
FICA base salary/wages   $14,216.08
   
Income subject to IRS tax   $14,216
   
ESPP/After-tax 401k(Roth)   $1,500 (employer min 5% match, more based on profit sharing, est $10k/y)
Paycheck income before tax   $12,716
   
Pension income   $199 (wife ex military income)
   
Federal Total Income   $14,415.08
Total income taxes   $2,720 
Add Health + Daycare reimb.   $167
Income before other expenses     $10,361.66
This does not include my annual bonus, which can range from $30-$50k (pre-tax).  I don't like inlcuding bonus income because spending more than my BASE income is obscene, imo.  Usually I invest $20-25k of the bonus in our after-tax investment account.


Current Savings   
Taxable   $530,000
Tax-deferred (e.g. trad. IRA/401k)   $541,000
Roth + HSA   $210,400
Cash/Checking ~$50,000
pension: ~$30k/y starting at 62 (non-inflation adjusted)

My current employer also has an ESOP profit-sharing program, but I have no idea what that will be worth, as I've just started with them.  I'd guess maybe the same as my current pension, depending on when I leave.

Now it gets ugly:
Monthly Average Expenses:   
Mortgage   $2,714 ($400k loan, 2.75 15 yr Fixed, 14 yrs left).
HOA   $88
Property Tax   $1,333
Home/Rent Insurance   $240
Gas/Oil for heating   $40
Electricity   $220 
Water/Sewer   $200
Cable TV   $147 (Includes internet)
Phone (cell)   $187
Household; Maintenance   $265

Groceries   $1,700   (Inlcudes house-hold/bathroom items (Before reading MMM a little, I thought this was high but reasonable (~$14/person/day)
Dining (Lunch/Dinner/Etc.)   $300

Life Insurance   $100
Medical (Doctor, Hospital, etc.)   $188 (estimate of out-of-pocket expenses)

Car Insurance   $144
Car Maintenance, Registration, etc.   $330 (2 cars - 2008 Sienna (130k mi, 2012 Volvo (130k mi) - paid cash)
Fuel/Public Transport   $275 (Gas for cars)
Parking/Tolls   $110 (tolls)

Hair Care   $207 (incl haircuts, wife colors own hair, plus skin care
Child activities    $600
Clothing/Shoes   $500
Gifts (not charitable contributions)   $400 (Birthdays, Xmas, misc. - total)
Entertainment   $100
Sports/Recreation   $50
Travel/Vacation   $500 (spent less than this last year, but this is a target)

Pets   $220

Non-mortgage total   $8,443

Other investments:   
Taxable investment account   $500 (I'm doing this  based on the "starve the beast" philosophy - can't spend what you don't have
   
Total Expense   $11,658
Total to invest   ($1,296) (ugh)
We've never consistently budgeted (with the requisite consequence), but the real kicker is our house is ~50% of take-home.  I plan for it to be the last mortgage I ever have.   The property taxes are obscene in in Tx (3.3%, ~$16k/y), as is the cost of our house ($500k).  But, even with that, we should still have PLENTY of additional income.  If we can reduce our after tax spending by $20k/y, that put's us on track to be FI in ~ 7 years.

Anyway, thanks in advance for reading and for the feedback.


Viking Thor

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 06:59:11 PM »
First of all, congrats on the $1.3M in savings, you must be doing something well!

Since you have approx $2k/ month for food/dining and another $2k among the various shopping/entertainment/activity type items, I would start there and try to greatly trim those to get to your goal. If that's not enough then of course you can look at other areas but among that $4k you can probably cut a lot without feeling to much pain.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 07:15:58 PM »
Downsizingcthe house would be a big fix.

How do the dogs cost you $220/month?

Morning Glory

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 07:37:50 PM »
Don't worry about the property tax, you would be paying that much in state income tax if you lived in my state. I would consider moving to a state with lower property tax before you fire.

You are new to this. Is your wife on board with it? I don't think I spend in 1 year what she spends in 1 month on clothing and hair care. Since she is a SAHM, I am assuming she does the grocery shopping. Try to get her to read "using Costco correctly" and "killing your $1000 grocery bill". Your dog food could be cheaper too.

Some low hanging fruit: ditch cable, get cheaper prepaid phones, switch to more efficient light bulbs. Getva home energy audit. Ditch the life insurance, you already have a million dollars.

You could FIRE now if you downsize your home and live more frugally,

ltt

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 09:11:58 PM »
$500 a month on clothing and shoes?  $600 a month on children's activities.  $200 a month on hair care--where in the world do you go to get your hair done?  That's over $15,000 a year on these three items

MDM

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 09:27:17 PM »
Quick check: the OP shows a negative cash flow of ~$15.5K/yr.  Have your cash holdings been dropping by ~this amount?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 09:42:48 PM by MDM »

94Ag

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 09:37:00 PM »
First off, thanks for the replies.

Itt, the daughter is in gymnastics, costs $330/month + meets.   We're not looking at Olympics or College scholarships, so it's just for her enjoyment/exercize - hopefully that will be ending once she starts high-school this fall.  Same with my son, his soccer league is going to be pared way back, I think those costs were about $1500 last year!
And yes, clothing seems high, definitely a target.   I expect we'll have some with my son growing, and just rampaging through shoes somehow.

MrsWolfeRN, I shared this same budget with my wife (an ex RN herself), so she's sort of on-board with at least us tracking things.  You are correct, she does 99.9% of the grocery shopping.  Thanks for the links/posts to check out re shopping (she is a Costco disciple), I'll read and "share" those.  The "hair care" is hair cuts for everyone, not just her, plus some monthly skin care products for her and my daughter (proactive).  Tbh, if I have to to pick my battles, that's not one I'm going to fight.  It's funny, she grew up in an extremely frugal household, and her Dad retired "early" (57), she should be teaching me this stuff!

That's not a bad suggestion on insurance, it is term. 

Dog costs are dog food (special low-allergy stuff because of course they have food allergies) ordered/delivered on-line (lowest cost my wife could find), plus annual vet costs for both dogs, shots, etc.

Thanks for the great suggestions, lots of stuff to read.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:02:13 PM by 94Ag »

CmFtns

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 09:40:08 PM »
If we can reduce our after tax spending by $20k/y, that put's us on track to be FI in ~ 7 years.

Anyway, thanks in advance for reading and for the feedback.

$11,658 a month is ~$140,000/yr in spending. That there is a big chunk of money to be spending each year, but before we even think about how to reduce that I'm trying to figure out your logic here in your quote above... If you reduce your spending by 20k you will be spending $120k each year which would require a net worth of at least $3.5 million invested correctly in order to be FI at that spending level. You said you currently have around $1.3 million in invested assets so how in the world are you planning on increasing your net worth +$2.2 million in 7 years?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 09:43:54 PM by CmFtns »

94Ag

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 09:46:08 PM »
Quick check: the OP shows a negative cash flow of ~$15.5K/yr.  Have you cash holdings been dropping by ~this amount?

This is true - basically we get "bailed out" by my annual bonuses - so cash cushion has been maintained for the most part, while also allowing me to max out not 401k Roths (when I was eligible) and/or put extra $$ into the market.  Also, our mortgage is higher now by ~$1000/month.
I think the tricky part is that our expenditures are typically very "choppy", and by not understanding the budget we didn't have a clear picture of our true cash flow. 

But the expenses above are pretty darn close to what we averaged all of last year (- house downpayments/furnishings, etc).  Maybe it was just a bizzaro year, but I suspect not so much, unfortunately. 

MDM

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 10:00:13 PM »
This is true - basically we get "bailed out" by my annual bonuses - so cash cushion has been maintained for the most part, while also allowing me to max out not 401k Roths (when I was eligible) and/or put extra $$ into the market.  Also, our mortgage is higher now by ~$1000/month.
I think the tricky part is that our expenditures are typically very "choppy", and by not understanding the budget we didn't have a clear picture of our true cash flow. 

But the expenses above are pretty darn close to what we averaged all of last year (- house downpayments/furnishings, etc).  Maybe it was just a bizzaro year, but I suspect not so much, unfortunately.
Ah yes, forgot about the bonus.  Including that, your numbers are consistent - well done!

Regarding the "FIRE in 7 years" - what does the simplified "Time to FIRE?" chart in the spreadsheet say?

94Ag

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2017, 10:01:36 PM »

Quote
$11,658 a month is ~$140,000/yr in spending. That there is a big chunk of money to be spending each year, but before we even think about how to reduce that I'm trying to figure out your logic here in your quote above... If you reduce your spending by 20k you will be spending $120k each year which would require a net worth of at least $3.5 million invested correctly in order to be FI at that spending level. You said you currently have around $1.3 million in invested assets so how in the world are you planning on increasing your net worth +$2.2 million in 7 years?

The MMM "Cash Flow" tool assumes the mortgage is paid off at retirement (from savings), so the $20k savings is on top of the $30k mortgage savings, +$6k annual post-retirement savings - that gets us down to ~$90k (again, on the face of it, that is shockingly high - I remember being absolutely thrilled with my $70k salary 15 years ago, and just cant' believe how we've brainlessly increased our spending over that time!!). 
That puts our target at ~$2.25 million, doable in 7 years at 7% return and consistent contributions.  I think my FIRE challenge is with the "numerator" part of the 4% withdrawal rule, not the denominator.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:03:43 PM by 94Ag »

Villanelle

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 10:27:00 PM »
It's hard to know where to start, as there are so many staggeringly insane categories.

The grocery budget is insane.  Create a list of 8-12 recipes that can reliably be made for less than $2 per person.  That's not even all that low, really.  And eat a dinner from that list those twice a week.   When you are cooking them, see if you can't easily (and with almost no extra time) make 3 instead of one, and freeze the other two.  Having a couple lasagnas or broccoli cheese casseroles or whatever in the freezer at any given time will help prevent you from resorting to ordering in or buying expensive prepared foods.  Consider making it a family afternoon one Saturday a month, where everyone chips in (the 14yo cuts carrots and onions while the 11 yo stirs a bowl while mom browns ground beef while dad assembles a recipe).  At the end of 90 minutes, you could easily have 20+ prepared dinners, ready to pop in the oven, crock pot, or a pan on the stove.  Doing it all at once will help you take advantage of economies of scale, will prevent food waste, will ensure you always have a stash of foods so you aren't tempted to eat out or buy prepared, and will allow you to focus on cheap recipes that you like, all while spending time with your family.  Look for cook books labeled "OAMC" or "Once a Month Cooking".  Even if you don't decide to go all in with a big monthly cook, you can get recipe ideas.  They tend to be fairly inexpensive and freeze well, which goes back to the "make 3, eat 1" suggestion.

$400 per month ($4800/year !!!) on gifts?!  Um, just buy less stuff.  Set a budget.  $200 per person for birthdays (which is still a lot!) and $600 total for Christmas (assuming you celebrate it, and that's still a huge budget!!), plus maybe $600 for other birthdays or weddings that come up, and you've still cut that number my more than half.  Really, your number here is just insane.

$240 for homeowners insurance seems very high.  Shop around, and make sure you aren't over insured.

What is the $265 for household; maintenance?  Is they really maintenance, or is it also cute new throw pillows and a new comforter for your daughter because she was sick of the old one, and a pretty new vase for the front entry, and... 

$500 on clothes?!?!  Again, that's insanity.  Do your kids get an allowance?  Are you buying them high end stuff?  As you said, they outgrow it fast.  Go cheap.  If they don't like it, they can supplement it with an allowance (if they have one, though it isn't listed as a line item).  The 14yo is old enough to babysit, mow lawns, pet sit, etc.  The 11 yo could do some of those things as well.  If he's out growing shoes and clothes that quickly, buy a a thrift store.  At at the very least, a resale shop. 

Your kids' activities are also really pricey.  If she's not Olympic-bound, is there really no cheaper gymnastics studio than $330+?  You say that you hope that will go away when she starts high school, but it seems to me like most of the time, kid expenses go *up* in high school, since most kids are in at least once activity there.   Also, there will be prom tickets and dresses, and things like that.  (It would be great if she had to pay for those on her own, but I don't know your plan.)

94Ag

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2017, 11:07:04 AM »
Just another word of thanks for all the excellent suggestions/links to resources, and ways to think about things.  Lots of stuff to work on.


CmFtns

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2017, 02:45:23 PM »

Quote
$11,658 a month is ~$140,000/yr in spending. That there is a big chunk of money to be spending each year, but before we even think about how to reduce that I'm trying to figure out your logic here in your quote above... If you reduce your spending by 20k you will be spending $120k each year which would require a net worth of at least $3.5 million invested correctly in order to be FI at that spending level. You said you currently have around $1.3 million in invested assets so how in the world are you planning on increasing your net worth +$2.2 million in 7 years?

The MMM "Cash Flow" tool assumes the mortgage is paid off at retirement (from savings), so the $20k savings is on top of the $30k mortgage savings, +$6k annual post-retirement savings - that gets us down to ~$90k (again, on the face of it, that is shockingly high - I remember being absolutely thrilled with my $70k salary 15 years ago, and just cant' believe how we've brainlessly increased our spending over that time!!). 
That puts our target at ~$2.25 million, doable in 7 years at 7% return and consistent contributions.  I think my FIRE challenge is with the "numerator" part of the 4% withdrawal rule, not the denominator.


Okay, The numerator...

These categories down to these yearly budgets would cut $24,187.40 off your yearly spending:
Groceries   $11,680.00
Clothing/Shoes    $3,000.00
Gifts   $2,400.00
Hair Care   $621.00
Child activities   $5,760.00
Eating Out   $2,400.00
Life Insurance    $0.00
Phone (cell)    $1,122.00
Cable TV/Internet   $705.60
Electricity     $1,584.00
Pets   $2,112.00
Water/Sewer    $1,920.00
Gas/Oil for heating   $360.00

To me this is low hanging easy fruit and would only be a rough start.


If you really want to slash your spending, put every budget at zero and go through one by one and have this type of thought process:
Mortgage:
Required? ==> yes, shelter
Can spend less? ==> yes, requires moving
Do we want to move ==> no
Budget ==> $2,714.00

Groceries:
Required? ==> yes, food
Can spend less? ==> yes, requires meal planning, cooking from scratch, planning shopping
Can we do these things? ==> yes
Budget ==> $6/person/day or $730

Child activities:
Required? ==> no
Is it important to us? ==> yes
Are there alternatives? ==> yes, for some activities
Do savings justify switching to alternatives? ==> yes, we will change x&y activity to z
Budget ==> $400

Life Insurance:
Required? ==> no
Is it important to us? ==> no, we have significant savings
Budget ==> $0

etc... etc...
These might not be your views on these specific topics but I promise you there are many things you will realize are not even remotely necessary expenses when you go through like this.



fuzzy math

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2017, 02:53:36 PM »
Why are you contributing to a Roth when your income is so high and you expect your expenses to be lower in retirement?

Why do you have daycare expenses for an 11 yr old with a SAHM wife?

Viking Thor

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2017, 03:37:16 PM »

Quote
$11,658 a month is ~$140,000/yr in spending. That there is a big chunk of money to be spending each year, but before we even think about how to reduce that I'm trying to figure out your logic here in your quote above... If you reduce your spending by 20k you will be spending $120k each year which would require a net worth of at least $3.5 million invested correctly in order to be FI at that spending level. You said you currently have around $1.3 million in invested assets so how in the world are you planning on increasing your net worth +$2.2 million in 7 years?

The MMM "Cash Flow" tool assumes the mortgage is paid off at retirement (from savings), so the $20k savings is on top of the $30k mortgage savings, +$6k annual post-retirement savings - that gets us down to ~$90k (again, on the face of it, that is shockingly high - I remember being absolutely thrilled with my $70k salary 15 years ago, and just cant' believe how we've brainlessly increased our spending over that time!!). 
That puts our target at ~$2.25 million, doable in 7 years at 7% return and consistent contributions.  I think my FIRE challenge is with the "numerator" part of the 4% withdrawal rule, not the denominator.


Okay, The numerator...

These categories down to these yearly budgets would cut $24,187.40 off your yearly spending:
Groceries   $11,680.00
Clothing/Shoes    $3,000.00
Gifts   $2,400.00
Hair Care   $621.00
Child activities   $5,760.00
Eating Out   $2,400.00
Life Insurance    $0.00
Phone (cell)    $1,122.00
Cable TV/Internet   $705.60
Electricity     $1,584.00
Pets   $2,112.00
Water/Sewer    $1,920.00
Gas/Oil for heating   $360.00

To me this is low hanging easy fruit and would only be a rough start.


If you really want to slash your spending, put every budget at zero and go through one by one and have this type of thought process:
Mortgage:
Required? ==> yes, shelter
Can spend less? ==> yes, requires moving
Do we want to move ==> no
Budget ==> $2,714.00

Groceries:
Required? ==> yes, food
Can spend less? ==> yes, requires meal planning, cooking from scratch, planning shopping
Can we do these things? ==> yes
Budget ==> $6/person/day or $730

Child activities:
Required? ==> no
Is it important to us? ==> yes
Are there alternatives? ==> yes, for some activities
Do savings justify switching to alternatives? ==> yes, we will change x&y activity to z
Budget ==> $400

Life Insurance:
Required? ==> no
Is it important to us? ==> no, we have significant savings
Budget ==> $0

etc... etc...
These might not be your views on these specific topics but I promise you there are many things you will realize are not even remotely necessary expenses when you go through like this.

Great idea for how to look at it! I am going to try this with my budget.

SwordGuy

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 05:37:19 PM »
My comments are colorful to make you smile (and to make my point), not to be mean.   Sometimes people don't get my sense of humor...

44 yo, single income filing jointly, Married to a SAHM, 2 kids (14 and 11), 2 dogs. 

The kids are old enough (and then some!!!) to be left on their own after school. 

SAHM could get a job which would bring in additional income.  And with a $500/month clothing/shoe budget in the past, she should be set for clothes to wear without additional expense.

Income before other expenses     $10,361.66

Why not use a regular IRA or a non-taxable 401k?  That would cut your taxes.

This does not include my annual bonus, which can range from $30-$50k (pre-tax).  I don't like inlcuding bonus income because spending more than my BASE income is obscene, imo.  Usually I invest $20-25k of the bonus in our after-tax investment account.

If you want to retire at this spending level in 7 years, you need to start investing 100% of that bonus!

Current Savings   
Taxable   $530,000
Tax-deferred (e.g. trad. IRA/401k)   $541,000
Roth + HSA   $210,400
Cash/Checking ~$50,000
pension: ~$30k/y starting at 62 (non-inflation adjusted)
How many more years do you have to work to qualify for that pension?

Other than that, it's more money than most will ever have.  You're looking at about $50,00 or thereabouts in investment income if that's in the stock/bond market.    (Not counting the pension.)

Mortgage   $2,714 ($400k loan, 2.75 15 yr Fixed, 14 yrs left).
HOA   $88
Property Tax   $1,333
Home/Rent Insurance   $240
Gas/Oil for heating   $40
Electricity   $220 
Water/Sewer   $200
Cable TV   $147 (Includes internet)
Phone (cell)   $187
Household; Maintenance   $265

Dear God, what a horrible property tax!    Can you get a job somewhere the local city won't roger you up the backside with those taxes?   I knew Texas overpaid its high school coaches and spent too much money on high school stadiums, but sheesh.  That's awful.

Cellphone bill is way too high.

Water seems very high.   Are you watering your yard to grow plants that you shouldn't be growing because it's the wrong climate for that grass?   And will the HOA make you keep doing it?

Is a $400,000 house an absolute necessity?   What would be the essential difference between what you now have and a $200,000 home?  Essential as in, absolutely necessary.


Groceries   $1,700   (Inlcudes house-hold/bathroom items (Before reading MMM a little, I thought this was high but reasonable (~$14/person/day)
Dining (Lunch/Dinner/Etc.)   $300

There are lots of threads on this and other financial sites that can show you how to cut this in half (at least).

Hair Care   $207 (incl haircuts, wife colors own hair, plus skin care

Per month?    Seriously?   Do you and the children bath in the milk of virgin mothers?   Oh, not with that $200 water bill...
Buy a haircut kit and save yourself a bundle.

Child activities    $600
Clothing/Shoes   $500
Gifts (not charitable contributions)   $400 (Birthdays, Xmas, misc. - total)
Entertainment   $100
Sports/Recreation   $50
Travel/Vacation   $500 (spent less than this last year, but this is a target)
Child activities $600 a month?  What the heck are they doing?  And why?  Is it really essential?  Do they actually want to do it?

Clothing/Shoes $500 a month?   A month?   Someone has to beat Imelda Marcos' place in shoe owning history and you're family is on it's way to shattering that record.   

Pets   $220
That's a lot!  Why so much?   

Taxable investment account   $500 (I'm doing this  based on the "starve the beast" philosophy - can't spend what you don't have

When you're total entertainment/clothing/optional expenses are $500 a month and the thousands of dollars you're frittering away have been moved to investments, THEN you'll be starving the beast.   Right now it's gorging on your income.   


jessicat

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2017, 07:42:20 AM »
I agree with the others that your spending is way out of control.  That is so much money being spent.  Just so you know I also live in Texas.  I live in the dfw area.  we currently have 7 of us living in our house.  my grocery budget which includes paper stuff and toiletries for this month is $600.  I never ever shop at costco because it is too expensive and too easy to pick up other stupid stuff.  I shop at kroger, sprouts, aldi and sometimes tom thumb.  Restaurants is $80 for the month.  Clothing is $100 for this month because I know that nobody needs shoes. No money for gifts this month because nobody has a birthday this month.  Budget for kid's expenses this month is $20 because one of them has a field trip next month.  I wanted to share this with you so that you can get a bit of a different perspective.  By the way we live in a house that we paid off last year and is worth a little over 350k (hate the taxes on houses in Texas.)  I do like that you have a 15 year mortgage.

Now for the facepunch.  It sounds like you all are spending a lot of money to impress yourself and others with your lifestyle and what you have and do.  Why do you all need to impress yourselves?

94Ag

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2017, 01:04:01 PM »
More great feedback.  I thought about a couple things, maybe I've got it wrong?

Insurance:  I have a $1MM term policy, ~$40/month, plus a supplemental LTD policy that comes to ~$40/mo (60% salary LTD policy through work).    So, the term policy provides salary replacement for about 6 years, or puts our combined assets near our FIRE target.  That would allow my family to "go on" as-is without having to suddenly make major/drastic life changes.  We have a $500k term on my wife, again based on approximate "replacement value" (haha), although maybe that has gone down since the kids are older now (we've had the policy for ~10 years).

Roth 401k vs. Traditional 401k contributions -  Checked a couple calculators, Betterment seems to be saying Roth, so is WF, another one is saying Traditional, which tells me they are very close - have to take a guess at what future tax rates will be.  I there are other resources to look at, would love to hear them (I did some google searches, there's not a lot out there that I found).

Always good to review insurance coverage/rates, etc.  We shopped around extensively before. 

What's the MMM consensus on car insurance coverage - liability only, since I'm assuming the ideal MMM car has no/very little replacement value?

CmFtns, great way to summarize.





MDM

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2017, 01:16:38 PM »
Roth 401k vs. Traditional 401k contributions -  Checked a couple calculators, Betterment seems to be saying Roth, so is WF, another one is saying Traditional, which tells me they are very close - have to take a guess at what future tax rates will be.  I there are other resources to look at, would love to hear them (I did some google searches, there's not a lot out there that I found).
Here is one way to do a ballpark estimate of future tax rates.

Note the possibility of self-defeating predictions: predict high taxable income > contribute to Roth > get low taxable income; predict low taxable income > contribute to traditional > get high taxable income. 

Anyway...:
1) Include any pension amount that you can't defer in return for higher payments when you do start
2) Take current traditional balance and predict value at retirement (e.g., with Excel's FV function) using a conservative real return, maybe 3% or so.  Take 4% of that value as an annual withdrawal.
3) Take current taxable balance and predict value at retirement (e.g., with Excel's FV function) using a conservative real return, maybe 3% or so.  Take 2% of that value as qualified dividends.
4a) Decide whether SS income should be considered, or whether you will be able to do enough traditional->Roth conversions before taking SS.
4b) Include SS income projections (using today's dollars) if needed from step 4a.
5) Calculate marginal rate using today's tax law on the numbers from step 1-4.
6) Make your traditional vs. Roth decision for this year's contribution
7) Repeat steps 1-6 every year until retirement

MustSam

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2017, 01:37:53 PM »
This is a great case study. Agree downsizing would make you at or close to FI right now.

I'm impressed with your cash savings...over $500K. Can I ask how you were able to save that much? Just by investing your bonuses?

94Ag

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Re: First Post - ready for the face punches
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2017, 07:36:34 PM »
..... Can I ask how you were able to save that much? Just by investing your bonuses?

For 3.5 years, (1 year before marriage, 2 years after), my job involved 100% travel - I was out of the country 330/365 days - I paid no income taxes, had no car or housing expenses, etc, etc.  We bought a condo in Chicago after the 2nd year, which we rented out 1 Room, and kept the other for when we(or just my wife) was back in town.  Spouse would also pick up "call" at the hospital she had worked at (she was a recovery nurse) when she was back home (we weren't always stationed in garden spots).  So for a couple years we were able to save just about every penny I made.  Unfortunately this was 1999 - 2000 so I got crushed in the market in 2000, but just kept plugging away.  Also, prior to getting married, my wife had a condo in San Diego which she was renting out, and was almost paying for itself.  We sold that in 2004/5 and pulled a good amount of equity out.  So we had a good start, and would put in about $3k/y to an after-tax account after maxing out 401k and Roth IRA's.  I've been "phased out of ROTH IRA contribution by the IRS for a few years, so have been putting what were previously Roth $$'s into the after-tax account as well. 

It's funny, looking back we got our good start because we were both very good savers before and during the first few years of marriage. 

My income really didn't start taking off until 2010/2011.   But I think our spending habits were well on the path to crazy by then (kids, homes, etc.)