Author Topic: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs  (Read 1264 times)

Effervescent

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Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« on: May 02, 2021, 06:18:36 PM »
There are a lot of moving parts here, but my basic inquiry is if there's a way to continue accessing 403b/457b retirement account loans indefinitely, or find some other way to avoid increasing my taxable income while having access to loans/funds, so that I can keep my AGI at about $39,000 while having achieved coast FI, working part-time.

Net worth: $260,000 (me $230,000, wife $30,000)
This includes substantial 403b/457b accounts, both of which provide access to $50,000 loans that are not taxable events, so long as I make timely monthly payments.
Age: 37 (wife 32)
Student loan debt: $95,000. I'm on the REPAYE plan, which means that about 10% of my take-home pay goes toward student loan payments, based on Adjusted Gross Income.
Children: 1 (infant), likely one or two more down the road.
House: 30-year mortgage at 3% interest. Owe about $238,000.
Basic monthly expenses: about $2,500. Discretionary spending is fairly modest. We have a good life but don't spend too much on the trappings of consumerism. We fly about 2x/year, and never really want for important things like a car, baby items, nice TV, bicycles, etc.
My wife is currently staying home with our baby, though she likes working and will likely eventually go back to work at least part-time.

My goal is to Coast FI in 2027, as my student loans can be forgiven then through Public Service Loan Forgiveness. At current contribution rates and assuming 7% growth, our retirement accounts should be at over $600,000 then. I would then downshift to part-time work, getting our adjusted gross income down to $39,000, after a $4,000 retirement account contribution. Assuming that we have two kids by then, a $39,000 AGI would give us $2,000 in the saver's credit, $4,000 federal/state earned income credit, and $6,000 in child tax credits. After taxes, our take-home yearly income would be about $46,000 for this basic part-time work (2 days/week), with access to free health care (either Medicaid or the NY Essential Plan), and possibly SNAP/food stamps. I've worked out the AGI of $39,000 to be the magic number to maximize benefits and minimaize taxes. My priority is to be at this number, while working on a very part-time basis, 2 days/week. While take-home pay would be $46,000, I would feel more comfortable with a take-home income of $60,000 or so.

My strategy, since I'll still be working, is to make up the income difference with access to 403b/457b loans. Since taking out a loan does not count as income, and since interest rates are pretty low (and any interest goes right back into the retirement account instead of to a bank), these 403b/457b loans are ideal. They would allow me to keep take-home income at about $60,000 while maintaining AGI at $39,000, giving us free health insurance, possibly food stamps, and an additional $6,000 in tax credits (saver's credit and federal/state earned income credit).

Since I have access to both a 403b and a 457b, my strategy would be to take out a loan for any extra income needed each year, then pay it off the next year with a loan from the other account, plus taking out more income for that second year, etc. and continue doing this until I have reached the $50,000 maximum amount allowed for a retirement account loan. 403b/457b loans spread out repayments over five years, so at current interest rates, if I take out a $20,000 loan, for instance, monthly payments would be about $372.

I figure that I can keep this going for about eight years until I can't take out any more money in loans, and either have to start working again, or default on these loans, which would create a taxable event (10% early withdrawal penalty on any remaining balance, plus paying taxes on the default amount). That's not really a big deal though, as by then our accounts should be at more than $1,000,000. I'll be around 50 years of age and, if I'm not still working part-time, could wait out the time until reaching 59 1/2 with SEPP, or I could stop working and tap into my 457b, which has no 10% early withdrawal penalty before 59 1/2 once you stop working.

Ex: year 1 of Coast FI - AGI $39,000 (take-home income of $46,000) - $14,000 loan from my 403b
Year 2 - AGI $39,000 - $28,000 loan from 457b account, $14,000 of which goes to pay off the previous 403b loan
Year 3 - AGI $39,000 - $42,000 loan from 403b account, $28,000 of which goes to pay off the 457b loan
Year 4 - $50,000 457b loan. Make monthly payments.....
Year 5 - default on 457b loan (creates a taxable event)
Year 6 - take out $50,000 403b loan, make minimum monthly payments. Use the rest as discreationary income to fund lifestyle
Year 7 - continue using funds from the $50,000 loan
Year 8/9 - default on 403b loan. Taxable event. Meanwhile, 403b and 457b accounts have continue growing for the previous eight years

My question is whether this sounds like a decent strategy, and also whether anyone can see a way of extending the retirement account loan musical chairs indefinitely. Is there another way to access non-taxable loans, besides through private companies like Sofi, etc. The reason that I like the idea of taking out 403b/457b loans so much, again, is the low interest rate (and the interest payments go back into the account), and that doing so allows for free health insurance/food stamps, the saver's credit, the earned income credit, etc. Basically, I'm prioritizing a minimalist lifestyle through part-time work at age 43 to transition to coast FI, instead of spending more time working full-time and being taxed more heavily.

If there's a way to indefinitely extend access to these loans without increasing our AGI, I might be able to coast FI in three years instead of six. My student loans would be around for another 10-15 years until they're canceled by the federal government, but monthly payments would be so minimal due to the $39,000 AGI - about $20/month, that my student loans would hardly be an issue. I can pay the tax bill from the canceled debt, using money from the 457b. (I estimate that this tax bill would be about $30,000-35,000).

jeroly

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2021, 10:25:59 PM »
My understanding is that you can only take out 403(b) loans while still employed, not sure about 457 loans (definitely true for 401(k) loans).

In any event, taking out retirement account loans is a bad financial strategy.  You are limiting the upside of your account (it will only grow by the loan interest rate for that portion of its balance instead of the market returns which over time are likely to be more) while reducing your cash flow (while you are ‘paying yourself’ you are still paying it out of your income).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 11:00:08 PM by jeroly »

Morning Glory

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 10:27:10 PM »
I am getting a headache just trying to decide whether this is ethical or not. It's definitely creative. You and the guy who is worried about paying taxes on his ten million dollars should get together for a coffee.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2021, 10:31:39 AM »
Wow, that's quite the scheme you've come up with.

However, there are a lot of moving parts there, and a lot of ways it could go wrong.  You are highly, critically dependent on lots of various government programs being exactly the same 6 years from now--student loan forgiveness, Medicaid/ACA cutoff, child tax credit, saver's credit, retirement contribution deductions, retirement account loans/penalties/taxes, etc.  If it all works exactly as you plan, and you execute it perfectly, great!  If something goes wrong, you're hosed.  Major financial event?  You're hosed.  Spending increases by a couple thousand per year? You're hosed.  Well, not really--you'd simply have to go back to working full-time.

From a moral standpoint, well, that's up to you, but personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.  I'd feel like I'm leeching off benefits intended for those who can't support themselves, paid for by people who work more hours, make less income, and pay more taxes.  All while I live a more lavish lifestyle ($60k vs $39-59k) and am perfectly capable of supporting myself, but I simply don't want to.

ixtap

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 10:38:53 AM »
Assuming you have to be employed for these loans, wouldn't that also mean that they are called immediately if you are laid off?

therethere

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 11:21:06 AM »
Wow, that's a lot. On paper it sounds like it could work. But if I'm understanding correctly your Year 1 is actually 2027. That's a lot of time for things to change both in policies and in your personal life (kids, medical issues, priorities, jobs, etc).

I'd worry less about your exact Coast FI withdrawal strategy. And more about enjoying your life now. While keeping in mind saving for the future. There's a lot that can change in the meantime to be nitpicking loan withdrawals and such.

tamuaggie2011

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2021, 07:23:36 AM »
Other posters have been way nicer but I'm sorry I just can't.

You're talking about intentionally taking out loans to effectively make yourself look way more poor than you actually are in order to get benefits that are intended for people who really need them. Doing all of this meanwhile while people such as myself pay for you to do that.

Spend the energy you put into "beating the system" on just increasing your savings and your income and you'll be more than set and be self-reliant as well. As others have said outside of the obvious immorality surrounding such a plan, it's a house of cards built on a bunch of government programs all staying the same over several years best of luck in that regard.

ericrugiero

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2021, 08:01:36 AM »
First, there is the moral question.  Lots of people around here optimize their income to hit the best tax rates and/or ACA rates etc.  At some point, that's OK but if you take it too far it becomes immoral.  The strategy you suggested seems over the line to me.  Is it really that different than retiring with $2M in the bank and accepting an ACA subsidy?  I'm not sure.  That's a question for you to wrestle with. 

Second, does it make financial sense?  There are lots of moving pieces, lots of laws that could change and some risk of the loan being called.  You also miss out on some significant potential gains.  Long term, the stock market has averaged significantly more than the % you would pay yourself on this loan.  That's one big reason not to do this. 

As mentioned above, many 401K (or similar) loans have to be paid in full if you leave your job.  Does your job allow you keep or take a loan after you leave?  I think that would be unusual. 

To make this work, you are going to need more money at the beginning in the 403b/457b since you are reducing the likely gains.  You should consider if saving this extra money so you can take this loan is worth it. 

For all these reasons, I don't think it's worth the trouble for a limited financial gain.  It might work out, but it might not. 

ColoAndy

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2021, 01:20:49 PM »
Other posters have been way nicer but I'm sorry I just can't.

You're talking about intentionally taking out loans to effectively make yourself look way more poor than you actually are in order to get benefits that are intended for people who really need them. Doing all of this meanwhile while people such as myself pay for you to do that.

Spend the energy you put into "beating the system" on just increasing your savings and your income and you'll be more than set and be self-reliant as well. As others have said outside of the obvious immorality surrounding such a plan, it's a house of cards built on a bunch of government programs all staying the same over several years best of luck in that regard.
+1

PJC74

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2021, 07:00:41 PM »
Some folks have no moral compass, wow. Didn't your parents ever teach you to do the right thing, especially when no one is looking?

I bet you attend church regularly, too LMAO

Dicey

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Re: Coast FI? 403b/457b loan musical chairs
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2021, 10:31:12 AM »
Other posters have been way nicer but I'm sorry I just can't.

You're talking about intentionally taking out loans to effectively make yourself look way more poor than you actually are in order to get benefits that are intended for people who really need them. Doing all of this meanwhile while people such as myself pay for you to do that.

Spend the energy you put into "beating the system" on just increasing your savings and your income and you'll be more than set and be self-reliant as well. As others have said outside of the obvious immorality surrounding such a plan, it's a house of cards built on a bunch of government programs all staying the same over several years best of luck in that regard.
+1
Ditto. I wouldn't have been quite so tactful.