Author Topic: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started  (Read 3389 times)

UK Dancer

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 199
  • Location: Sheffield, UK
UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« on: March 06, 2018, 09:54:48 AM »
Life Situation: 27 and living with partner (32), getting married this year, potential for kids in medium term future - max of 2. Own a 3 bed end of terrace with mortgage in Sheffield, so a fairly LCOL area. Other than mortgage and student loans, no debts  - credit cards used for day to day spending paid off in full each month. Finances still largely separate, but getting steadily closer and will be combined at some point relatively soon after wedding.

Gross Salary/Wages: I earn £29k pa (£2398 pm), plus potential for bonus, though this bonus is not guaranteed and it's a relatively new job so not had a bonus yet to know what to expect. As I complete my professional qualification and get other promotions salary should increase, expected salary in 2-3 years should be around £45-50k, should easily be able to get reasonable increases above inflation every year from then on (very lucrative professional job). Partner self employed healthcare professional, earnings can oscillate between £25k and £35k depending on number of patients available/how busy she wants to be.

Deductions:
Me: I contribute 8% (£192) to a workplace pension, which is the max my employer matches. Other deductions are £494 in PAYE/NI (tax) and £83 in student loan payments.
Partner: Self employed, so does annual tax return. Nets out to take-home pay below. Contributes £200 pm to a SIPP (£250 after govt contribution).

Adjusted income: Effective tax home pay: £1630 me, around £1620 partner. Total £3250pm


Current expenses: The below are all our monthly budget figures for 2018. I know some people are going to say these should be accurate averages for the past, but I do base the budget on these averages, plus other factors I know about for the year to come. In 2017, for example, only one of our spend areas went over budget, all others were either well below (where it was a contingency budget such as car repair costs) or within 10% for costs that're guaranteed to be incurred (utilities/mortgage/food etc).

Note: Frequently below I refer to a claim as expenses under a self-employed business, this just reduced my partner's tax bill, this doesn't avoid us having to pay any of it.

Mortgage: 220 of which 98 interest
Council tax (set by local council): 91
Water (set by local body - non-negotiable): 40
Utilities (house is very inefficient, we're working on this in the house costs section): 220
Internet: 33. Superfast broadband we both need in order to work from home, partially expensed through self employed business
Phones (1 each, plus separate work phone for partner, expensed through self employed business): 41
Food: 500 (I realise this is high, we're both foodies, love our food and cook every day, this is something I'm aiming to reduce)
Insurances (house and life, both required by mortgage): 33
Car (combination of insurance of ~£600 annually and provision for repair/service/MOT costs): 80
House costs (repairs, updates etc): 70
Fuel/public transport (partner works from multiple practices and has to drive between them, plus we do a lot of travelling at weekends, our social life is scattered across England, we use trains where it's cheap but sometimes can't avoid driving): 195
Christmas/birthday gifts (partner has a big Irish Catholic family with big tradition of presents, I minimise spending where possible and make sure to budget through the whole year for the increased expenditure): 80
Holidays: 205
Clothing (including professional wear for partner, again expensed through business): 51
Spotify: 5
Books/library: 14
Misc/discretionary (meals out, drinks, social events etc, plus one-off items): 180

Total costs: £2060 pm (We don't own a TV, I walk/bike around 3.5 miles to work year round, we take all meals to work with us, I re-evaluate all our direct debits frequently to make sure we're getting cheapest insurance/utilities etc. So at least I'm being partially mustachian outside of the occasionally excessive spending above!)


Current savings: We have standing orders moving £750 pm into a savings account that I use as a holding point to decide what to do with it, currently a fair portion of this is being used on our wedding, after this I have been putting this against the mortgage before I discovered MMM, but I'm now starting to venture into the world of reading on investing as this will be more efficient than paying a 1.99% mortgage off, so once I'm feeling more confident about that (have binge-read MMM and am working on reading through relevant info on Monevator) I'll look into investing rather than mortgage.
£384 into my workplace pension pm
£250 to partner's SIPP
Around £200 to student loans pm
We also move any leftover funds at the end of the month into this savings account.

Assets: Cash emergency fund of £2.5k
Around £20k each in ISAs.
Combined pension values around £10k: partner didn't contribute to pension until I turned up and set one up for her, I've only been earning 3 years and first two years were on non-existent salary, pension amounts should ramp up over next few years per salary increases as above.
~£60k equity in house.
2013 Nissan Juke, paid for in cash and going to be run into the ground over the next 10 or more years at which point we'll look electric

Liabilities:
Mortgage, originally of £72k on £112k house purchase, some overpaying, as well as some house improvements, means current balance is £59k on ~£120-125k house value. Remortgaging at the moment to a 5 year fixed rate at 1.99% on a 30 year mortgage that I aim to have all but paid off by the end of the 5 years, ideally sooner and just leaving a minimal balance to not fall foul of early repayment charges. Monthly pmts £220, of which £98 is interest initially.
Student loans for both of us, combined value ~£20k - these are negligible interest in UK, so will just be paid off out of salary deductions and can be ignored other than the fact that in the medium term they'll be paid off and our income will increase by ~£200pm - this is around 10 years away.

Specific Question(s):
Essentially I'm a bit lost as to how to progress from this point. As should be clear from above, we're doing OKish at putting away savings, but I'm not feeling at all inspired by this and want to have some experts/people further down the FIRE pathway look at this and give me some advice as to what else we should be doing to best work towards FI, apart from the food and utilities costs I highlighted above.
One big point is that we're likely to want my partner to be able to not work for a year or more when we have kids, but also want to keep working towards our capacity to be FI, so don't want our saving capability to plummet when she's not working.
However, to offset this there is the fact that she loves a lot of her job, she really enjoys helping people (as an office worker looking at her work I can't imagine a better buzz in one's daily working life than being able to look back at your day and realise you've literally healed 8-10 people, compared to me saying I've spent 8 hours playing with spreadsheets...), so she's almost certain to go back to her current role even after we're FI.
Likewise, while I don't necessarily enjoy my current role/career particularly, I foresee that at FI point I'm likely to just drastically cut down my hours and find a role that's more advisory/supervisory and therefore continue to earn as there are large segments that will always interest me and in 10 years time I will have enough experience and expertise to be able to carve out this sort of niche part time role without difficulty.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 01:11:52 PM by UK Dancer »

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5622
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 10:55:59 AM »
It sounds like you've already got a good handle on what you want to do.  There is a point of "enough," where you've cut your spending down to only necessities and things that are truly worth it, and you're progressing on improving your income.  You're living within your means, and saving for retirement.  From here, you just need to stay the course.  You've got a lot of things on autopilot, so you can quit worrying about them and focus on enjoying life along the way.  MMM calls this being a SWAMI--a Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual.  There's a point where you don't need to worry about "what more should I be doing?"

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
  • Location: Norway
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 12:31:41 PM »
Just in general:
- if you need things, look at second hand alternatives first.
- if you need something new, don't buy on impulse, but think about it for some time, compare prices online and buy on sales, even if you need to wait for months for that sale.
- if you go away from home, bring food and drink so you don't need to buy it on the road
- if you want to buy a new prescription on whatever, think critically whether you want to pay for this prescription every month, for years. Is it worth it?
- sell stuff you don't use anymore
- develop cheap hobbies
- like to go on cheap vacations
- learn to cook good food at home
- invite friends to cheap events rather than in a bar
- regularly check whether you can save money on your insurances, your phone prescription, your TV ect. Is there anything you can drop?

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8889
  • Location: Avalon
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 01:04:49 PM »
You are doing basically OK. 

The way it looks to me is that your insanely low mortgage payment (yes, I worked in London, why do you ask?) is allowing you to be profligate in other areas while still contributing to pensions and savings.  The areas of profligacy are utilities, food, transport, holidays and misc. All of which probably add up to a perfectly nice lifestyle and none of which are in the least mustachian.

The projected increases in your professional income will largely offset any reduction in your partner's income if you have children, so even that isn't going to put much of a crunch on your finances.  The thing that would put a crunch on your finances is a much more expensive house, so as long as you avoid that you could carry on much as you are.

I think this is a case for some blue sky thinking about where you and your partner want to be in 5, 10, 20, 40 years' time.  At the moment it looks to me as though you are set up for a conventionally prosperous, comfortable and conventional life.  Nothing wrong with that if it's what you want.  It's just worth doing a bit of serious thinking now to ensure that it's a path that will not lead to any regrets in the future.  If it might (and your presence here on the MMM forum suggests it might), then you should be looking to dial up the mustachianism to give yourselves other options in the future.

twistedfirestarter

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 03:07:20 PM »
Hi Dancer,

Your numbers are very similar to ours, we pay a bit more on mortgage and split things a bit differently but exactly the same for holiday and similar for misc.

940 bills inc mortgage, insurance etc...
220 groceries
140 fuel
120 motoring non fuel
100 entertainment
50 other
70 health
500 “allowance” 250 each for wife and I to do with what we want, inc. clothing etc. 

On the savings front, we are approximately 60% SIPP and 40% ISA, it’s more tax (and NI and student loan if salary sacrifice) efficient to pay into pension than ISA but you do have to wait until ~58 until it can be accessed so the balance is key, found this site useful https://www.google.co.uk/amp/the7circles.uk/savings-rate-four-pot-solution/amp/.
All savings are invested in vanguard life strategy 100 accumulation.

Lots of tax efficiencies to be had via self employed expenses, van / pickup vs car ownership may prove advantageous.

Hope this is helpful / interesting.


robartsd

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3342
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 04:06:08 PM »
I don't know how costs in the UK compare to those in the US. You've already stated that your working on the two that look like the biggest opportunities to optimize (food and energy). There might be some pretty good savings hiding in your budgets for clothing, gifts, holidays, and misc as well. Keep working at it.

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6757
  • Location: London, UK
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2018, 02:45:41 AM »
Hello and welcome! What an exciting time for you.

Generally, I would agree with the other posters that conventionally you are doing very well, and if all you want is a comfortable old age then just keep on trucking. However, if you are interested in early FI (let alone RE) then you need to make some hard choices.

First, know that everything else I’m about to say is coloured by:
a)   My own emotional and psychological prejudices about money. (I work part-time in a artsy job and am just about to have our first child, my husband has committed to a steady but low-income career that he allegedly never wants to retire from. Debt freaks me out and I am desperate to own a house with a garden. YMMV.)
b)   An enthusiasm to help people with their money.
c)   The knowledge that if there’s anything you don’t like, you can just shrug, say ‘not for me, thanks’, and move on with your life.

Quote
Finances still largely separate, but getting steadily closer and will be combined at some point relatively soon after wedding.

You personally sound mildly enthusiastic about FIRE, and a good candidate to be a SWAMI (as described above). You don’t sound desperate to quit ASAP or to make any huge changes. But what about your wife-to-be? It’s crucial that you’re both on roughly the same page about your financial future. The fact that she might want to be a SAHP is a good ‘in’ to propose changes and savings.

There are many different ways to pool finances when you’re married. The way we do it (which is obviously the best :P) is that everything goes into one pot, we spend jointly on most things, but then we each have a monthly allowance of personal no-questions-asked-yes-darling-you-can-spend-it-all-on-books-if-you-so-desire-and-I-will-spend-mine-on-cake money. I don’t need to worry about what Mr SLTD is spending his on as long as he doesn’t spend over the allocated amount, and it means he can do things like spend silly money on professional haircuts while I DIY at home.

Quote
As I complete my professional qualification and get other promotions salary should increase, expected salary in 2-3 years should be around £45-50k

Even if you did nothing else, if your salary increases as you expect and you don’t increase your expenses to match, you will do a good job. Preventing lifestyle inflation should be your number one concern.

Utilities (house is very inefficient, we're working on this in the house costs section): 220: This is insane and you know this. How much of the improvements are you DIYing? And how many ‘quick fix’ things can you throw at this utility bill? For example, laying loft insulation is basically buying it and rolling it out. Hanging thick curtains or adding thermal linings to existing ones. Putting foam strips round doors and windows is easy peasy. You could spend a single day on stuff like this and make a real difference. Google can teach you.

Internet: 33. Superfast broadband we both need in order to work from home, partially expensed through self employed business We are with Plusnet and get broadband and a landline for £18.99 a month…and yes, we work from home! Check out USwitch – one switch and you save money automatically every month.
Phones (1 each, plus separate work phone for partner, expensed through self employed business): 41 This also seems kinda high, even for three phones. Again, check out USwitch, and look for Smarty and iD.


Food: 500 (I realise this is high, we're both foodies, love our food and cook every day, this is something I'm aiming to reduce) WOW. We like food and cook every day and average around £250 for all food, toiletries and cleaning/laundry. Usual question: what do you eat? If you’re interested in food, I suggest making this your hobby. You’ve got to eat anyway, so you might as well enjoy yourself while you’re doing it. I decided cooking/food would be one of my hobbies so reducing the costs has been fun because it’s involved trying lots of new things. We got into Mexican food and Japanese food and it’s brought our costs way down because we focus on the vegetable-heavy stuff but it’s still an exciting taste exploration. I’m learning to make sourdough bread (50p/loaf!) and sourdough everything else (sourdough pizza… mmm…) Look at Budget Bytes for recipe inspiration, and commit to more vegetarian meals.

Clothing (including professional wear for partner, again expensed through business): 51 This seems like loads! What are you buying, armour plated socks?! Apart from this year when I need to buy a new pair of shoes, I reckon we average about £10/month between us. (Hard to say because it comes out of personal money except socks, underwear and shoe repair.) I buy almost all of my clothes on eBay, and mend stuff a lot. You can search on eBay for specific brands and can filter for a Buy It Now price if you don’t want to go through the hassle of bidding. It’s just like any other online shop, really.

Quote
I'm now starting to venture into the world of reading on investing as this will be more efficient than paying a 1.99% mortgage off, so once I'm feeling more confident about that (have binge-read MMM and am working on reading through relevant info on Monevator) I'll look into investing rather than mortgage.

Read this: http://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market-timer/ I would consider myself a beginner investor who is a bit of a scaredy cat, but it convinced me that ‘buy low-fee index funds and hold them’ actually is investing and not gambling. I buy Vanguard LifeStrategy 100 because I want a simple life and I know retirement is some time away. It may not be absolutely optimal, but I can always optimise in the future but I can’t save money in the future I didn’t save now. The JL Collins stock series is also good.

Quote
Around £20k each in ISAs.
Cash or S&S? If cash, please immediately invest it all in Vanguard LS100. You can optimise later.

Quote
~£60k equity in house.
2013 Nissan Juke, paid for in cash and going to be run into the ground over the next 10 or more years at which point we'll look electric
Interesting, but not assets. You can’t spend them.


Quote
One big point is that we're likely to want my partner to be able to not work for a year or more when we have kids, but also want to keep working towards our capacity to be FI, so don't want our saving capability to plummet when she's not working.
It just will. Sorry. You’re removing £1620/month from your household accounts. It’s impossible for that not to affect your savings rate. HOWEVER, you’re in a great position with your projected salary increases to make sure you’re just putting your savings on ice for a year rather than dipping into them…IF you avoid increasing your expenses.

Quote
Thoughts?

What do you really WANT? You’re already nearly in a position for your wife-to-be to take a year off for children, you say neither of you wants to retire, you’re projecting big salary increases in the next year without big increases in expenses… There isn’t really anything else to say, unless you have a different dream in mind that isn’t living comfortably and freely continuing to work until pension age.

PhilB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5803
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2018, 02:50:06 AM »
Hi Dancer,
Those numbers all look pretty good.  No point in you paying any extra to a pension at the moment as you have a good chance of being a higher rate tax payer in the future.  The tight period will be the first few years with kids before your partner goes back to work / when she has to pay for childcare if she wants to work.  If she had no income and you were on £50k by then you'd have take home of around £2,850.  Allowing say £500 pm for costs of kids and keeping on her £250 pm pension contributions doesn't leave that much headroom over your £2k pm expenses so important not to let that budget rise too much.  Would one option be for her to continue working part time in the evenings whilst you look after the kids?
Long term your current expenditure levels (without the mortgage as it will be long paid off) are only £5k pa more than the total of 2 full state pensions so that would need say a £125k stash.  A quick calculation shows that at 4% average real return and assuming your salary goes to £50k in 3 years and then just rises with inflation and that you continue to pay in the £250pm for OH, increasing with inflation, you'd have about £285k and OH £125k in pension pots (assumed the starting £10k split equally).  That would be enough to bridge the gap through to state pension age for both of you.   Given your capacity to save more than this when both of you are working that gives you loads of flexibility - just so long as you avoid too much lifestyle inflation.

cerat0n1a

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Location: England
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2018, 08:01:11 AM »
Utilities (house is very inefficient, we're working on this in the house costs section): 220

Seriously? Are you running a hydroponics + grow lights operation in the loft or something? ;-)

We have a large house heated to an stupidly high temperature and teenagers who take hour long showers & run multiple web servers and still don't manage to spend £2500 per year on gas & electricity.

The *average* utility bill in the UK for a house with 4 bedrooms and 5 occupants was a little under £1500 in 2017.

LFH86

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2018, 12:57:19 PM »
On the water bill - is there really nothing you can do about that? We used to go with the estimate from Thames water and paid £55/month, but when we got a meter it went down to £10/month. Is that something you could look into? £40/month sounds high.

cerat0n1a

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Location: England
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2018, 01:53:08 PM »
On the water bill - is there really nothing you can do about that? We used to go with the estimate from Thames water and paid £55/month, but when we got a meter it went down to £10/month. Is that something you could look into? £40/month sounds high.

£40/month is above the UK average, but not outrageously so.

There's some good advice here:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/cut-water-bills

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
  • Location: Norway
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2018, 01:04:35 AM »
I have changed to turning of the shower after I wet my hair. I do the soaping without the running water. Then I turn it on again to flush.

My DH has the habit of washing himself with a cloth instead of showering. This also saves a lot of water.

Do you rinse your dishes in the sink before putting them in the dishwasher? Have you tried not to do this and see if it get clean anyway?

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6757
  • Location: London, UK
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2018, 01:14:10 AM »
I have changed to turning of the shower after I wet my hair. I do the soaping without the running water. Then I turn it on again to flush.

My DH has the habit of washing himself with a cloth instead of showering. This also saves a lot of water.

Do you rinse your dishes in the sink before putting them in the dishwasher? Have you tried not to do this and see if it get clean anyway?

I suspect the OP doesn't have a water meter, but rather a fixed price based on estimated usage from the size of the house and the number of people living in it. In which case, financially, there's no point them trying to cut their water use! However, they should look into whether a meter would be cheaper. You can calculate your use online and I believe that if the metered water is more expensive, you keep paying your old rate (at least for a defined switchover period). And gives a good incentive to be careful about water use!

Playing with Fire UK

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3449
Re: UK learner wanting advice regarding how to get started
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2018, 01:28:49 AM »
Hi!

I agree with the points above.

Seconding that you are doing fine for a comfortable life and retirement at or slightly before the State Pension Age. You have the potential to be able to design your life around your wants far sooner. You know best what this looks like: work being optional, taking wild holidays, eating at the best restaurants in the world, taking time off work to raise kids, starting your own restaurant (or farm, or winery).

For food costs (this is just groceries yes - you list meals out within misc), try Cooking on a Bootstrap as well as Budget Bytes for ideas. You can probably have fun playing with the recipes and deciding which one or two ingredients to buy fancy versions of to make the meal pop.

You have both holidays and trips (within fuel / public transport listed). Do you have an idea of how many of your miles are social and how many are work? If you wanted to economise I imagine you could make savings on the holiday front.

Is the cost of the wedding locked in or non-negotiable? In your place, I'd be minimising the amount of spending on a single day. But it's a super personal decision.

I couldn't quite tell - are you only making the minimum payments on the student loans? What plans are you on?

For the workplace pension - are you putting enough in to maximise the employer match and no more? This is what I'd recommend. If your bonus starts to put you in the 40% tax band (or the Child Benefit limit) then you can put in more or start a SIPP. If you like spreadsheets (rather than just suffering them at work), build a calculation of how much pay over the 40% tax band you expect to get if you get your expected pay rises and dial back after 10 years, plus your current contributions and employer matches. Then think about growth and what it would be worth when you hit the private pension access age (57/58/60).

Is your partner's work physically demanding? Maybe think about a couple of scenarios that could limit her ability to earn until pension age. Not trying to be full of doom here, but there are a couple of healthcare roles I can think of where practically everyone gets work-related aches well before typical retirement age.