Case Study: Financial Independence Retire EVER???

[onward19]

I've enjoyed reading through your thread. We plan to homeschool when the time comes, so it's neat to see how that factors into your plans and finances. You've made some great progress! Switching from major cellphone carriers with monthly plans to the minor carriers was one of the first things we did to save money. I hated that $100+ bill every month! Things have changed so much in the past few years in regards to coverage, texting, data, etc that you won't even notice a difference.

[lookingforadelorean]

@lhamo Thanks for sharing that Renee's Garden link. The seeds there look great.

@happypigday I've found the advice here to be incredibly helpful, so I would encourage you to post your own case study, too!


Full transparency: I'm finding today difficult. This will sound silly, but I want to buy eleventy billion things from Amazon Prime Day. I don't think I've ever really paid much attention to the Prime Day Deals in the past, so I'm attributing this to a) my newfound desire to bargain hunt [what if I miss a good deal??], and b) the psychological effect of restriction causing increased fixation. Working on my mindset ("I don't WANT more crap!") is more than half the battle.

[freya]

FIRE isn't possible, though, is it? I mean, the "early" part? My husband is 44. We're trying to come up with a fun acronym for our situation -- FIRS? Retire "safely?" Retire "securely?" FIRATRA -- Financial Independence Retire At Traditional Retirement Age? Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Ha!

If you put in the effort now, you should be able to retire by age 60 - that's worth a lot!!  I thought I'd be happy to work forever, but as I'm now getting close to that age (I'm 56) I can already feel the siren song of wanting to not put so much time and energy into working.   Having just a couple years to go is a major advantage compared to knowing that you'd have to work at least another decade because you didn't focus on saving.

Why don't you try putting some numbers into the cfiresim online calculator, to get a projected retirement date?  You'll have to collect data such as actual amount saved per year, projected social security income, mortgage payoff date, and your planned retirement spending.  For that, calculate as current spending minus obvious work-related costs plus costs of work benefits you'll have to pay for eg medical insurance, plus extra costs in retirement eg travel.   Then add on a percentage to cover income taxes.  Plug in those numbers and it will give you a %success for a given retirement year.  From that, you'll be able to figure out how much you need to save in order to achieve a goal like retiring at age 60.

Then go to it!!  It's wonderful that you're doing this now - imagine most people who go on blithely spending whatever with no future planning at all, then they come up to age 60 and find out they're screwed.  It is sadly the fate of most people.

[lookingforadelorean]

Then go to it!!  It's wonderful that you're doing this now - imagine most people who go on blithely spending whatever with no future planning at all, then they come up to age 60 and find out they're screwed.  It is sadly the fate of most people.

Thank you for this. And yes, I know that I've had the FIRE bug for about a hot minute, so I certainly won't be throwing any stones, but I have a sibling (age 44, married to a man who is 51) whose financial outlook is so bleak, it terrifies me. The amount of debt . . . I just can't wrap my head around it. And thinking about that family's situation gives me increased fortitude to see this through for my own family. Especially my husband.

[Allie]

You seem to have the personality and motivation that will make this fun! 

Prime day is such good marketing!  Amazon is amazing at manipulating us into giving them our money.  I do it all the time!  But, you don’t need anything right now.  Maybe consider a 30 day Buy Nothing period (except for food, of course).  Sometimes it’s good to wade in and make changes slowly, but if you are feeling restricted, it may be a better idea to give yourself a time limited super restrictive period.  Sometimes, that makes it easier to say no, and if you let it last long enough, like 30 or 60 days, it’s enough to change behaviors so you don’t binge when it’s over.  You know yourself best, but it may be something to consider doing as a family, just to see how not relying on things and purchases for good feelings goes.

[lookingforadelorean]

You seem to have the personality and motivation that will make this fun! 

Prime day is such good marketing!  Amazon is amazing at manipulating us into giving them our money.  I do it all the time!  But, you don’t need anything right now.  Maybe consider a 30 day Buy Nothing period (except for food, of course).  Sometimes it’s good to wade in and make changes slowly, but if you are feeling restricted, it may be a better idea to give yourself a time limited super restrictive period.  Sometimes, that makes it easier to say no, and if you let it last long enough, like 30 or 60 days, it’s enough to change behaviors so you don’t binge when it’s over.  You know yourself best, but it may be something to consider doing as a family, just to see how not relying on things and purchases for good feelings goes.

I think I must come across as a lot nicer online than I do IRL. ;-)

Yeah, I reached out to my husband this morning for a quick conversation about what we NEED right now. We decided that's a big fat nothing. Ha! I'm cleaning the house today and staying the hell away from Amazon.

[former player]

Yeah, I reached out to my husband this morning for a quick conversation about what we NEED right now. We decided that's a big fat nothing. Ha! I'm cleaning the house today and staying the hell away from Amazon.

That is huge, you know - not just the decision that you don't need to buy anything (although that itself counters all our consumerist training) but also that you are reaching out to your husband and that you and he are having good conversations about spending and money.  Congratulations.

[Stashing Swiss-style]

Yeah, I reached out to my husband this morning for a quick conversation about what we NEED right now. We decided that's a big fat nothing. Ha! I'm cleaning the house today and staying the hell away from Amazon.

That is huge, you know - not just the decision that you don't need to buy anything (although that itself counters all our consumerist training) but also that you are reaching out to your husband and that you and he are having good conversations about spending and money.  Congratulations.

+1  - couldn't agree more!  This is a team effort and you guys will get there together.  Plus, the Forum is also a place to share the weak moments- being brave enough to write it down is a great step forwards.  Amazon does not need your money, you need it.

[RetiredAt63]

You seem to have the personality and motivation that will make this fun! 

Prime day is such good marketing!  Amazon is amazing at manipulating us into giving them our money.  I do it all the time!  But, you don’t need anything right now.  Maybe consider a 30 day Buy Nothing period (except for food, of course).  Sometimes it’s good to wade in and make changes slowly, but if you are feeling restricted, it may be a better idea to give yourself a time limited super restrictive period.  Sometimes, that makes it easier to say no, and if you let it last long enough, like 30 or 60 days, it’s enough to change behaviors so you don’t binge when it’s over.  You know yourself best, but it may be something to consider doing as a family, just to see how not relying on things and purchases for good feelings goes.

Have you looked at the Throw Down the Gauntlet section? All sorts of good challenges there.  Maybe yours should be "no Amazon for a month"?   ;-)

And fun and educational entertainment - Gail Vaz Oxlade's old show `"Till debt do us part".  You guys don`t need her take no prisoners attitude now, but you would probably get all sorts of good ideas.  I love Gail, she is so no nonsense.

Oh, my desktop monitor is a $15 bargain from Value Village, it is just fine.

On a more serous note, once you get used to where you are now with spending, you will find more low hanging fruit that looked too important the first time around.

[insufFIcientfunds]

This may or may not be help, and I am not from WA (from OH) so not sure if this is available in your area.

We live around rural areas and go in with another family and we buy a cow and have it butchered. We can buy whole, half, or quarter. We get most ground, but can get steaks, roasts, etc. We decide the fat content and we know where and how the cows were raised, fed, and butchered. My dad has been doing this for years. Farm to table before farm to table was cool. More like farm to butcher to grill to table, but you get the point. Can't beat the price. Half a cow and we have beef for the year. Have the option for hogs and chicken too. Deep freeze off CL and we were in business.

Meal Quick Tip: One of our fav quick/cheap meals is a rotisserie chicken from Costco. I literally take every oz of meat off. I eat dark, rest of fam eats white. It's perfect. Then I boil the bones/fat for a stock. Grow my own herbs, dry and grind them. mix/match different herbs in a ice trey and fill with stock and freeze. Put in freezer bags and label. You can have a spicy hot pepper; sage and dill; whatever combo you want. Takes a relatively bland dinner and spices it up. Making a crock pot meal and it's "eh"? Throw a few cubes in. Then I freeze the rest of the stock.

I try and hit up local farms as much as possible too. Ohio in the summer is sweet corn time. Love it. Also enjoy the local strawberry farm. We pay them to pick their strawberries (pretty genius business model) and the kids love it and we pick a stupid amount of strawberries. After we fill our bellies with as much as we can, we freeze the rest.

I'll admit though I didn't change my food and find ways to eat great for cheap until I found out I was diabetic. It's been an interesting adventure but have been enjoying it, much like you are. However, there are times I want to drink a 12 pack of Mtn Dew, much like I am sure you want to hop on Amazon and get a few Prime Day deals.

This has been one of my fav threads so far. I love how engaging it is. We would love to hear some updates!

[lookingforadelorean]

Have you looked at the Throw Down the Gauntlet section? All sorts of good challenges there.  Maybe yours should be "no Amazon for a month"?   ;-)

And fun and educational entertainment - Gail Vaz Oxlade's old show `"Till debt do us part".  You guys don`t need her take no prisoners attitude now, but you would probably get all sorts of good ideas.  I love Gail, she is so no nonsense.

Oh, my desktop monitor is a $15 bargain from Value Village, it is just fine.

On a more serous note, once you get used to where you are now with spending, you will find more low hanging fruit that looked too important the first time around.

I watched the first two episodes of 'Til Debt Do Us Part last night. I liked it. Kind of a Supernanny for the financially challenged.

This may or may not be help, and I am not from WA (from OH) so not sure if this is available in your area.

We live around rural areas and go in with another family and we buy a cow and have it butchered. We can buy whole, half, or quarter. We get most ground, but can get steaks, roasts, etc. We decide the fat content and we know where and how the cows were raised, fed, and butchered. My dad has been doing this for years. Farm to table before farm to table was cool. More like farm to butcher to grill to table, but you get the point. Can't beat the price. Half a cow and we have beef for the year. Have the option for hogs and chicken too. Deep freeze off CL and we were in business.

Meal Quick Tip: One of our fav quick/cheap meals is a rotisserie chicken from Costco. I literally take every oz of meat off. I eat dark, rest of fam eats white. It's perfect. Then I boil the bones/fat for a stock. Grow my own herbs, dry and grind them. mix/match different herbs in a ice trey and fill with stock and freeze. Put in freezer bags and label. You can have a spicy hot pepper; sage and dill; whatever combo you want. Takes a relatively bland dinner and spices it up. Making a crock pot meal and it's "eh"? Throw a few cubes in. Then I freeze the rest of the stock.

I try and hit up local farms as much as possible too. Ohio in the summer is sweet corn time. Love it. Also enjoy the local strawberry farm. We pay them to pick their strawberries (pretty genius business model) and the kids love it and we pick a stupid amount of strawberries. After we fill our bellies with as much as we can, we freeze the rest.

I'll admit though I didn't change my food and find ways to eat great for cheap until I found out I was diabetic. It's been an interesting adventure but have been enjoying it, much like you are. However, there are times I want to drink a 12 pack of Mtn Dew, much like I am sure you want to hop on Amazon and get a few Prime Day deals.

This has been one of my fav threads so far. I love how engaging it is. We would love to hear some updates!

Thank you! I should have mentioned that I started a journal. I'm realizing what a slow slog this is going to be -- no instant millionaires here. So I thought a journal might help keep me motivated and accountable.

We have been wanting to get a deep freeze for YEARS. That's still something we're toying with because we have decided to continually evaluate our living arrangements over the next 12 months. So, we'll see. But yes, I grew up that way, too (in Illinois). My father used to barter with the farmers he worked with, and often he was paid in a cow instead of dollars!

Thanks for the herb cubes idea. I LOOOOOOVE Costco's chickens. I feel like I kind of shouldn't (do not google any articles about how they produce them so cheaply), but man, they really do taste great for such a low price.

[SunshineGirl]

I think you'll be so happy a year from now that you made the changes you've recently made & got started on this journey. How is your tracking of expenses going?

It seems you didn't love YNAB, but I thought I'd share how much I DO love it in case you would consider trying it again. I've gone back & forth with tracking expenses, and with cash-flowing two kids in college, it's essential for my peace of mind. What I love about it lately (I'm sure other programs could do the same thing, actually) is allocating dollars to categories as they come in and then nearing as the next paycheck arrives, I start to move unspent money to categories I've begun to call "Priorities for Extra Money." We're sorely in need of a new mattress & are swapping bed sizes AND I am super interested in adjustable beds (king split!) - which is fairly pricey (on Amazon for about $1400). ANYWAY, since I've already taken care of my savings for the month (that happens automatically), extra money actually gets to be used for non-essential purchases, even luxuries.

In your case, I'd create a couple of "Priorities for Extra Money" categories. 1. "Send $50 extra to student loan" and 2. Licensure expenses. If you start with $1000/month in your grocery category and $200 in gas, just moving a few dollars here & there throughout the month & then everything left over as the month ends, you will start making real progress on things.

In addition, make sure you create categories for things that are easy to ignore but can bite you in the butt. For me, that's home maintenance & repairs. I really let that go & am finding myself with a lot of deferred maintenance. Setting aside money monthly for future unknown repairs is useful, plus when they come up you're more likely not to postpone them because you have money allocated already. Similarly, once you get your emergency fund solid, create categories for "car insurance deductible" and "Max out-of-pocket deductible," etc.

A few other things:
 
1. Do you have an Instant Pot? (That would have been a good Prime Day purchase if not!) It's pretty fantastic for making large quantities of things like rice, beans, meat. Having rice & beans available all week can provide a good base from which to build.

2. It looks like you're moving forward with solid cuts to your expenses, which is great. I do think it's important you get your license to practice in Washington, and in the meantime find a way to earn at least a few extra bucks, be it from babysitting occasionally, driving for Lyft, or really anything. Your family needs some resiliency.

3. I think it's great you don't use credit cards & I suggest you keep it that way for the foreseeable future. It wouldn't hurt to have one in reserve. 

4. I also think it's great that you're planning to have your kids go the economically-smart route for higher education. College can be a huge expense & you guys need that money for your own retirement so you're not a financial burden on your kids down the road. 

5. Please make sure that your husband has a lot of life insurance (this is part of resiliency, too). It would be hard for you to replicate his income, and the time to get life insurance is when you're young & healthy for the best rates. Term insurance that takes him 20-25 years out is the best for you. I imagine he has some at work, but it likely won't be sufficient. Research companies by looking for high ratings from A.M. Best.

6. I know some of the suggestions we're all making might seem insane to you now, but re-read them months down the road & I bet some of the ones that seem un-doable now will appear reasonable later. That's kind of how it works.

Best of luck!

[pachnik]

Good for you for staying away from Amazon Prime Day.   I bet they picked mid-July to have it to drum up sales.  Summer is probably a slow month for sales. 

Anyway, congratulations for being honest on here and sticking to it.  You will be really pleased with the results.  Maybe it is a little late to welcome you to the MMM forum but welcome anyway!

[BicycleB]

@lookingforadelorean, congratulations on jumping into this journey so aggressively. You may be on the way to building that DeLorean yourself.

Progress as of:

7/11
- Opened Discover Banking savings account at 2.1%. Deposited $1200
- Called WA state multiple times. No available humans. Emailed them my questions about getting certified here.
- Switched Hulu plan. -$40
- Switched to Visible for my cell. Got $100 virtual MC offer. Total savings for next 12 months: -$880 or -$73.33/month (That's CRAZY!!)
- Canceled:
Patreon. -$15
Audible. -$15
Kindle Unlimited. -$10
Music Unlimited. -$4

Total decrease in monthly expenditures (so far): $157.33

Good moves. Big win on the cell phone, huh? (I don't know that provider. How's it working so far?)

Well done on your WinCo grocery shopping a few days ago. That stuff counts.

Looking forward to future reports that measure spending more fully. With that, realistic timeline planning becomes possible. Imagine having your Thanksgiving meal this year already knowing when you're likely to reach FI!

My personal imagination is that the date you'll have in hand by then would most likely be either early 60s or late 60s, with several years falling off if you succeed in the return to work. It's conceivable that that when your hubby is mid 50s, you could both be FI. That depends on many factors of course, primarily a continued series of improvements. Obviously you're not there yet, but I suspect it's possible. You'll be able to find out for real once your spending is fully measured. In the meantime, as the feeling of enthusiasm ebbs and flows, I encourage your persistence. Success is achievable.

[lookingforadelorean]

I think you'll be so happy a year from now that you made the changes you've recently made & got started on this journey. How is your tracking of expenses going?

It seems you didn't love YNAB, but I thought I'd share how much I DO love it in case you would consider trying it again. I've gone back & forth with tracking expenses, and with cash-flowing two kids in college, it's essential for my peace of mind. What I love about it lately (I'm sure other programs could do the same thing, actually) is allocating dollars to categories as they come in and then nearing as the next paycheck arrives, I start to move unspent money to categories I've begun to call "Priorities for Extra Money." We're sorely in need of a new mattress & are swapping bed sizes AND I am super interested in adjustable beds (king split!) - which is fairly pricey (on Amazon for about $1400). ANYWAY, since I've already taken care of my savings for the month (that happens automatically), extra money actually gets to be used for non-essential purchases, even luxuries.

In your case, I'd create a couple of "Priorities for Extra Money" categories. 1. "Send $50 extra to student loan" and 2. Licensure expenses. If you start with $1000/month in your grocery category and $200 in gas, just moving a few dollars here & there throughout the month & then everything left over as the month ends, you will start making real progress on things.

In addition, make sure you create categories for things that are easy to ignore but can bite you in the butt. For me, that's home maintenance & repairs. I really let that go & am finding myself with a lot of deferred maintenance. Setting aside money monthly for future unknown repairs is useful, plus when they come up you're more likely not to postpone them because you have money allocated already. Similarly, once you get your emergency fund solid, create categories for "car insurance deductible" and "Max out-of-pocket deductible," etc.

A few other things:
 
1. Do you have an Instant Pot? (That would have been a good Prime Day purchase if not!) It's pretty fantastic for making large quantities of things like rice, beans, meat. Having rice & beans available all week can provide a good base from which to build.

2. It looks like you're moving forward with solid cuts to your expenses, which is great. I do think it's important you get your license to practice in Washington, and in the meantime find a way to earn at least a few extra bucks, be it from babysitting occasionally, driving for Lyft, or really anything. Your family needs some resiliency.

3. I think it's great you don't use credit cards & I suggest you keep it that way for the foreseeable future. It wouldn't hurt to have one in reserve. 

4. I also think it's great that you're planning to have your kids go the economically-smart route for higher education. College can be a huge expense & you guys need that money for your own retirement so you're not a financial burden on your kids down the road. 

5. Please make sure that your husband has a lot of life insurance (this is part of resiliency, too). It would be hard for you to replicate his income, and the time to get life insurance is when you're young & healthy for the best rates. Term insurance that takes him 20-25 years out is the best for you. I imagine he has some at work, but it likely won't be sufficient. Research companies by looking for high ratings from A.M. Best.

6. I know some of the suggestions we're all making might seem insane to you now, but re-read them months down the road & I bet some of the ones that seem un-doable now will appear reasonable later. That's kind of how it works.

Best of luck!

I'm trying to be a little more patient with Mint for now. I rejiggered our budget categories this morning, and I think it might be a little more user friendly now. We'll see.

Yes! We've had an IP for several years, but it is seeing a big uptick in action now. We've made french toast casserole and baked potatoes recently, and my husband is making chicken jambalaya in it tonight for his lunches this week. (I did cave and buy an IP cookbook while it was a lightning deal during Prime Days. But that was my only purchase!)

Mr. LDL's life insurance through work is a $1.1M policy. How do we know how much is enough?

@lookingforadelorean, congratulations on jumping into this journey so aggressively. You may be on the way to building that DeLorean yourself.

Looking forward to future reports that measure spending more fully. With that, realistic timeline planning becomes possible. Imagine having your Thanksgiving meal this year already knowing when you're likely to reach FI!

My personal imagination is that the date you'll have in hand by then would most likely be either early 60s or late 60s, with several years falling off if you succeed in the return to work. It's conceivable that that when your hubby is mid 50s, you could both be FI. That depends on many factors of course, primarily a continued series of improvements. Obviously you're not there yet, but I suspect it's possible. You'll be able to find out for real once your spending is fully measured. In the meantime, as the feeling of enthusiasm ebbs and flows, I encourage your persistence. Success is achievable.

Wow. Thinking about having a clearer picture of our timeline by Thanksgiving is so exciting! And thank you for the encouragement. I have already noticed the ebbs and flows. And doubts. And pushback. No matter how much I immerse myself in this new perspective, it's still hard. I wasn't raised by frugal parents, and the majority of my best friends and family members are much better off than average. We're talking live-in help for my two best friends and trust funds for their children. I enjoy being counter-cultural, but it does still take persistence at times.

[RetiredAt63]

One thing that can be a financial lifesaver - figure out your once a year and twice a year expenses and budget for them.  Things like property taxes, and car registration/driver's license renewal/holidays/birthdays.  Then they don't come as a shock - you have the money set aside.  Same for home maintenance - I read someplace that you should be budgeting 2-4% of your house's value (not the land, just the house) for maintenance each year.  If you don't spend it one year, you will have it the next year when something more expensive shows up.  Like needing a new roof.

[SunshineGirl]

$1.1 million is really good for an employer-provided policy. I was assuming it was 1-2 times annual pay. To understand if it's enough, think through what the financial implications would be if it was suddenly just you with all your financial obligations, kids still in the household, your being out of the workforce for a bit, and how many years until you can tap into social security. $1 million at a "safe" withdrawal rate is about $40K per year minus taxes, so can you live on that plus your savings plus you going back to work? If so, you're good. If not, you might want to get another policy that you can cancel as you build up your resources and/or pay off your house. I'd feel pretty good about you getting another $500K, 20-year term policy for your husband which would take him through age 60 and allow you to pay to off your mortgage plus have a little extra if he were to pass.

Others may feel you don't need more. In our situation, we had/have less but no debt & no mortgage & rental properties that provide a baseline income plus equity plus savings.

[lookingforadelorean]

One thing that can be a financial lifesaver - figure out your once a year and twice a year expenses and budget for them.  Things like property taxes, and car registration/driver's license renewal/holidays/birthdays.  Then they don't come as a shock - you have the money set aside.  Same for home maintenance - I read someplace that you should be budgeting 2-4% of your house's value (not the land, just the house) for maintenance each year.  If you don't spend it one year, you will have it the next year when something more expensive shows up.  Like needing a new roof.

We allowed for a 1% home maintenance fund in our current budget, which equates to $300/month. I'm not thrilled about that. The cost of home ownership is not for the faint of heart.

$1.1 million is really good for an employer-provided policy. I was assuming it was 1-2 times annual pay. To understand if it's enough, think through what the financial implications would be if it was suddenly just you with all your financial obligations, kids still in the household, your being out of the workforce for a bit, and how many years until you can tap into social security. $1 million at a "safe" withdrawal rate is about $40K per year minus taxes, so can you live on that plus your savings plus you going back to work? If so, you're good. If not, you might want to get another policy that you can cancel as you build up your resources and/or pay off your house. I'd feel pretty good about you getting another $500K, 20-year term policy for your husband which would take him through age 60 and allow you to pay to off your mortgage plus have a little extra if he were to pass.

Others may feel you don't need more. In our situation, we had/have less but no debt & no mortgage & rental properties that provide a baseline income plus equity plus savings.

Thanks for clarifying. Our running joke has been that the girls and I would move to Costa Rica (for a lower cost of living, although I don't know anything about the actual COL there), if my husband passed away prematurely. I'll talk to him about upping his policy instead. ;-)

[BicycleB]

Re insurance - I love what @SunshineGirl and @lhamo said.

Fine points just to accelerate your process:
-Check it out: SunshineGirl's answer was based on your spending. You can't really know how much insurance you need until you know how much money you spend. Everything revolves around this.
-Two great commenters both said "Go learn or calculate something." Neither one said spend a penny! (Ok, SunshineGirl said maybe. But she said calculate first.)
-Your increasing knowledge is already starting to REDUCE the effort you need. You have a policy and some survivor benefits. You don't need to actually make a change or talk to the hubby yet. Just keep measuring for a few weeks, follow the suggestion above about itemizing once-a-year expenses, and decide after that.
-As you learn more, your actions will become calmer, rarer, less rushed, more efficient. This will feel great.
-In the next few months, as your expenses drop, the amount you need will therefore drop. Like lhamo, I wouldn't rush into expanding your policy yet.

[lookingforadelorean]

We're diligently tracking every dollar. In the meantime, does it ever make sense to continue gradual student loan repayment? Mr. LDL's loan is $31K at 3%. Would we better off putting any of our excess funds toward something else? Even investing it while continuing minimum payments on the loan?

[dandarc]

We're diligently tracking every dollar. In the meantime, does it ever make sense to continue gradual student loan repayment? Mr. LDL's loan is $31K at 3%. Would we better off putting any of our excess funds toward something else? Even investing it while continuing minimum payments on the loan?

At 3%, take as long as you possibly can. Particularly if you are not maxing out your tax-advantaged investments first. That's a really low rate.

See investment order sticky for the standard advice on what to do with your excess dollars, along with "Why's" for everything.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

[Allie]

We're diligently tracking every dollar. In the meantime, does it ever make sense to continue gradual student loan repayment? Mr. LDL's loan is $31K at 3%. Would we better off putting any of our excess funds toward something else? Even investing it while continuing minimum payments on the loan?

Yyyeeeesssss!!!

I mean, pay down the loan and don’t accrue any fees, additional interest, or let the principal grow (I think some student loans do this if you defer?), but don’t put any extra towards it if you have any tax free investment space!  That 401k (or whatever you have) is an automatic savings of whatever your top tax rate is...  25%?...PLUS whatever the return is.

We ended up with about 30k in low rate, long repayment loans (under 2%) and I’m holding on to them until the very last moment! 

I think the general rule of thumb is that over 4% interest rate, you pay it off...but I’d say that would be after you max out those tax free 401k, 457, 403b, trad ira (if you can, you might make too much), etc.  Unless you owe on a consumer good like a car, cc with much higher interest, or debt that has other stuff involved like to family, lower interest stuff can ride.

We plan to pay off our house, student loans, etc. before we re just cause the lower our monthly spend, the lower our needed withdrawal rate, and the lower our tax burden (which means we’ll qualify for lower cost insurance, pay less on our tax deferred investment withdrawals, etc.).  But until we stop building the stash and start living on it, we’re focusing on increasing investments. 

But, again, I learned most of this here, from people who know much better and will defer to their expertise.  :)

[theskyisblue]

In about 3 months, I will have some money (~8K) to throw at our debt and I was wondering whether to pay off our car ($260 monthly payment, 2 more years on the loan, 1.99 interest) or to kill some credit card debt (13K, 0% currently but will increase to 13% in 12 months unless I move it to another 0% card next year -- getting tired of that game). 

I was going to pay off the car since that seems to be a strategy here and I was excited to recapture the car payment but looking at the order of priorities in the posting, it seems like I should go after the credit card debt, since the underlying interest rate (after the 0% period) is so much higher. 

Of course, I can wait 12 months before paying the cc debt since it's currently at 0% interest but in our family ... it may be wiser, psychologically, not to wait before taking drastic action on debt.

I sense already that my thinking is confused here but I'm a newbie so I'll just apologize in advance.

[Steeze]

In about 3 months, I will have some money (~8K) to throw at our debt and I was wondering whether to pay off our car ($260 monthly payment, 2 more years on the loan, 1.99 interest) or to kill some credit card debt (13K, 0% currently but will increase to 13% in 12 months unless I move it to another 0% card next year -- getting tired of that game). 

I was going to pay off the car since that seems to be a strategy here and I was excited to recapture the car payment but looking at the order of priorities in the posting, it seems like I should go after the credit card debt, since the underlying interest rate (after the 0% period) is so much higher. 

Of course, I can wait 12 months before paying the cc debt since it's currently at 0% interest but in our family ... it may be wiser, psychologically, not to wait before taking drastic action on debt.

I sense already that my thinking is confused here but I'm a newbie so I'll just apologize in advance.

You can check out the investment order thread for the general rule of thumb that people follow here. Given that you are not and have not been paying your credit card off each month, I would suggest eliminating the credit card debt completely. Further, don’t use your credit cards except for a true emergency, and always plan on paying it off before they are due. Your car loan is at a good rate. Sucks that you have a car loan, but live and learn. Don’t do that again. Start saving for your next car now.

Sounds like you already know, but you have a consumer debt problem, you have until now, spent more than you have. The spend first pay later attitude. Debt in and of itself is not a bad thing when utilized properly and strategically to increase your wealth. But if your debt is preventing you from improving your financial situation then you have a debt emergency.

For a disciplined mustachian a 0% credit card and a 2% car loan can be celebrated. For an undisciplined consumer they are obstacles slowing them on their path to financial independence.

[Neustache]

My opinion: Payoff the credit card debt - yes, it's a lower interest rate but only if you pay it off in full.  The car loan at 1.99% can wait until later. 

[Hula Hoop]

@former player I won't try to defend the position I'm in except to point out that my student debt is for a graduate degree that I completed at age 38. Not trying to excuse the debt, but I'm sure glad I have a thick skin.

I'm confused though as from what you wrote, you had your first child at 38 but also went into debt to do a graduate degree (I'm assuming in counselling) that you finished also at age 38.  But then you decided to not use the grad degree and instead stay home with your children in order to home school them?  I'm kind of confused by this.  I realize that life does not go according to plan but it sounds like you must have planned to use your grad degree -otherwise you wouldn't have taken on debt to do it (not to mention the lost income while you were studying). 

Anyway, to me the elephant in the room is that you have chosen to drop out of the paid workforce despite having student debt from a professional degree in order to home school the kids.  That's a fine choice if you have the means to fund it but the reality is that this is a huge and very expensive luxury.  Even working part-time would be a luxury in your situation because of the lost income.  So if you are going to make the expensive choice to not work full time with a grad degree you need to drastically cut other things.  At the moment, it seems that the thing you are choosing to drastically cut (by default) is your income in retirement and the possibility of partially funding your kids' college educations.  But it sounds like you are not happy with this choice which means that you need to drastically re-think things.

IMO cutting back on groceries, gas or lawn care are equivalent to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.  You need to think about the big expenses.  How are the public schools in your area?  Do the benefits of homeschooling outweigh the possiblity of not being able to fund your retirement and not being able to help your girls at all with college expenses?  How much income could you bring in if you worked full time outside the home in your professional field?  Or part-time?

[Cassie]

I totally agree Hula.

[fuzzy math]

@former player I won't try to defend the position I'm in except to point out that my student debt is for a graduate degree that I completed at age 38. Not trying to excuse the debt, but I'm sure glad I have a thick skin.

I'm confused though as from what you wrote, you had your first child at 38 but also went into debt to do a graduate degree (I'm assuming in counselling) that you finished also at age 38.  But then you decided to not use the grad degree and instead stay home with your children in order to home school them?  I'm kind of confused by this.  I realize that life does not go according to plan but it sounds like you must have planned to use your grad degree -otherwise you wouldn't have taken on debt to do it (not to mention the lost income while you were studying). 

Anyway, to me the elephant in the room is that you have chosen to drop out of the paid workforce despite having student debt from a professional degree in order to home school the kids.  That's a fine choice if you have the means to fund it but the reality is that this is a huge and very expensive luxury.  Even working part-time would be a luxury in your situation because of the lost income.  So if you are going to make the expensive choice to not work full time with a grad degree you need to drastically cut other things.  At the moment, it seems that the thing you are choosing to drastically cut (by default) is your income in retirement and the possibility of partially funding your kids' college educations.  But it sounds like you are not happy with this choice which means that you need to drastically re-think things.

IMO cutting back on groceries, gas or lawn care are equivalent to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.  You need to think about the big expenses.  How are the public schools in your area?  Do the benefits of homeschooling outweigh the possiblity of not being able to fund your retirement and not being able to help your girls at all with college expenses?  How much income could you bring in if you worked full time outside the home in your professional field?  Or part-time?

This may be a really unpopular opinion here, and I need to very clearly spell out that I'm a woman before I say it.

The sacrifices you're teaching your girls about giving up your career to homeschool them all the way up to college confuse me. Do you (OP) homeschool for religious reasons? Because public school isn't good enough? In either situation you are teaching your girls that if they want to give their future children the same standard of upbringing, they can't work either. And in that scenario, you're setting them up to be in the same situation that you are currently in (lots of student debt, no career). Its one thing to take a few years off, or work part time when your kids are young, but an agreement to homeschool for 18 years (+ the number of years span between kids) is a life sentence of never working. 

College is great. Blue collar jobs are great too. Its not so great to have student loan debt with no income. A lot of my girlfriends went to college and refuse to work or use their degree.  I wonder back at age 18 if they felt that way and were told there was no other path outside college, or if their feelings just drastically changed after having children.

OP, I know you're making calls to try to get your licensure approved in WA. I hope you can find some sort of schedule that works for you, because it is also really a life lesson for your kids.

[lookingforadelorean]

You know, I took some face punching when I started this thread, and I laughed about it because I earned those face punches fair and square. But I didn't come here for parenting advice. Please hear me when I tell you that I have put a lot of thought into every comment anyone has written regarding my financial situation. I posted hoping for expert advice, and it's given out freely here, which is amazing!!! But, again, I do not want, nor did I ask for, opinions about how we educate our children.

I realize I didn't clearly state it at the onset, so let me address it further for the first and final time: Sending our children to school, this year, is not up for discussion. Not in this forum. Will our plans change in 2020? They could. But any changes would only be decided by the five people who live under this roof together. We allow our daughters to have a voice in their educations.

Which is an interesting juxtaposition considering what I've read in a couple of comments left here today. Far, far, far from pigeonholing my daughters, by staying home I'm demonstrating to them the power of choice. Every day, I model what it looks like to pursue interests in life. Every day, they see how much their father and I value our relationships. I could go on and on, but I'm not going to because I don't feel the need to defend our choices. If choosing to spend every minute of these years with my children means my husband and I don't achieve our financial goals, well, that will be hard. But it's a risk we're willing to take. And part of what compelled me to come here in the first place was to find ways we could do both -- with a lot of focus, dedication, and yes, possibly even me working again, maybe we can secure our financial future as well as maintain the life we're living (more frugally). My husband agrees -- we'd both rather sell our house and move into a rental than change the time we spend together as a homeschooling family. It's that important to us. And it's just one of the avenues we're researching.

And, so, now that I've explained how much of a priority homeschooling is to us, can we drop it? No further mom shaming. No further jabs about how I'm not contributing to our bottom line. No further assumptions about how I'm setting back women's rights. My husband and I are really freaking happy with our marriage. Our kids are healthy and thriving. There is more than one way to achieve our goals. If you don't want to support the way we're choosing to get there, just scroll on by. Or go ahead and comment about how much you disagree with me staying home for homeschooling . . . I'll just ignore it.

[fuzzy math]

I think it is leaping to conclusions to assume that just because the OP and her DH have decided that homeschooling is best for their family, even though it means some financial sacrifices, this somehow sends the message to her daughters that they should expect to be SAHMs in their own adulthood.  My mom trained as a nurse and supported herself until she married my dad relatively late for the 1950s.  She stopped working as soon as she got pregnant and never went back to work.  When my dad died at age 52, she was able to support herself at a modest level on his life insurance, their savings, and SS.  I do remember her debating keeping her nursing license valid in the year or two after my dad died, and that she eventually decided to let it lapse.  Anyway, both my sister and I wanted to have careers and we did.  And our mom was happy for us.  She never pressured me to be a SAHM.

I'm not saying that it isn't worth the OP exploring how to get back into the workforce, especially since there would be some serious financial benefits to that.  But she is lucky to have trained in a field that can afford some flexibility -- pretty high demand for counsellors that can offer evening and weekend hours.  So if homeschooling isn't working well for them and precluding her from returning to work she enjoys, by all means look at all the options.  But I don't think it is helpful to shame somebody who is making different choices about their work and family life into doing something else by implying that she's not sending good messages to her kids.

I never shamed her and I never stated that she wasn't sending good messages to her kids. I told her that she should seek out schedule arrangements to where she can use her degree to show that a mother of older kids can homeschool and work. The kids can work autonomously at home (without being driven around constantly) and so they grow up knowing that they can choose to or to not have a career if they choose to homeschool their kids. Right now she is showing them she cannot have a career because she is a homeschool chauffeur to a separate paid program. She is also terrified that her DH won't be able to retire at age 67, when the OP will be 73.

I'm not dissing on SAHPs, your mom included. She at least had the option of going back to work once you were school aged. With homeschooling that option frequently isn't present, because it's a very separate community where your ties largely depend on you remaining a homeschooling family. My DH was a SAHP while my kids were too young to go to school. Now that they're school age, we both work. My mom was a SAHP when my sibling and I were young, went back to school when we were school age, and started in the professional work force afterwards. My best friend is a SAHP and refuses to use her accounting degree because she didn't like the program from day 1. If she were to ask me how to make or save more $$, I'd tell her that working is the easiest way (and that would not be shaming her). Since she hasn't, I don't randomly tell her she is not maximizing her potential. I even have a homeschooling mom friend who FIREd before she had kids. The difference is that she can afford it. The OP is nearing that point in her life where it would be feasible to work part time outside of the home with no ill effect on her children. I have fond memories of my parents being at work and my sibling and I having the home alone to ourselves. I also believe it's important for siblings to work things out without parents around, and separately with their peer groups.

We offer advice to people who have justifications for too expensive of homes, cars, poor city vs earnings ratios etc. We give advice on the diminishing returns of additional degrees later in life when FIRE is nearing. I've seen advice on MMM about teaching children the value of avoiding clown lifestyles because they grow up believing their childhoods are the norm, and those beliefs can be hard to change. The advice on this forum is rooted in sound financial analysis and given in a well meant way, even when it is tough to digest. It's easy for thread commenters with no personal attachments to objectively discern where the numbers don't match up, and easy for the original thread posters to get upset about their sacred cows being off limits. It just so happens in this post, the glaring issue is a mixture of getting a degree with no intent to use (or possibly life changed- the future is hard to predict) when their priorities don't mix with their current financial record. That's not a women's rights issue. If the OP did not like her program of choice and that's why the degree is unused, it's a great teaching moment for her kids. My DH quit college a few times, and it's a discussion we have with our kids, because those teaching moments could have a profound impact on life later on. The OP's kids are old enough to hear that finances are choices (which presumably she is telling them when she cancels subscriptions) and that one of the ways to strengthen your financial position is by working.

OP, I do not want to further crap on your post because you're making good progress and you deserve to feel good about that. I also don't want to make this a thread that you do not want to visit, so I'm going to bow out. Keep on keeping on. I still believe your home is your greatest asset and if Seattle continues to appreciate you would lose out substantially in the future by selling it now.

[Hula Hoop]

I think it is leaping to conclusions to assume that just because the OP and her DH have decided that homeschooling is best for their family, even though it means some financial sacrifices, this somehow sends the message to her daughters that they should expect to be SAHMs in their own adulthood.  My mom trained as a nurse and supported herself until she married my dad relatively late for the 1950s.  She stopped working as soon as she got pregnant and never went back to work.  When my dad died at age 52, she was able to support herself at a modest level on his life insurance, their savings, and SS.  I do remember her debating keeping her nursing license valid in the year or two after my dad died, and that she eventually decided to let it lapse.  Anyway, both my sister and I wanted to have careers and we did.  And our mom was happy for us.  She never pressured me to be a SAHM.

I'm not saying that it isn't worth the OP exploring how to get back into the workforce, especially since there would be some serious financial benefits to that.  But she is lucky to have trained in a field that can afford some flexibility -- pretty high demand for counsellors that can offer evening and weekend hours.  So if homeschooling isn't working well for them and precluding her from returning to work she enjoys, by all means look at all the options.  But I don't think it is helpful to shame somebody who is making different choices about their work and family life into doing something else by implying that she's not sending good messages to her kids.

I never shamed her and I never stated that she wasn't sending good messages to her kids. I told her that she should seek out schedule arrangements to where she can use her degree to show that a mother of older kids can homeschool and work. The kids can work autonomously at home (without being driven around constantly) and so they grow up knowing that they can choose to or to not have a career if they choose to homeschool their kids. Right now she is showing them she cannot have a career because she is a homeschool chauffeur to a separate paid program. She is also terrified that her DH won't be able to retire at age 67, when the OP will be 73.

I'm not dissing on SAHPs, your mom included. She at least had the option of going back to work once you were school aged. With homeschooling that option frequently isn't present, because it's a very separate community where your ties largely depend on you remaining a homeschooling family. My DH was a SAHP while my kids were too young to go to school. Now that they're school age, we both work. My mom was a SAHP when my sibling and I were young, went back to school when we were school age, and started in the professional work force afterwards. My best friend is a SAHP and refuses to use her accounting degree because she didn't like the program from day 1. If she were to ask me how to make or save more $$, I'd tell her that working is the easiest way (and that would not be shaming her). Since she hasn't, I don't randomly tell her she is not maximizing her potential. I even have a homeschooling mom friend who FIREd before she had kids. The difference is that she can afford it. The OP is nearing that point in her life where it would be feasible to work part time outside of the home with no ill effect on her children. I have fond memories of my parents being at work and my sibling and I having the home alone to ourselves. I also believe it's important for siblings to work things out without parents around, and separately with their peer groups.

We offer advice to people who have justifications for too expensive of homes, cars, poor city vs earnings ratios etc. We give advice on the diminishing returns of additional degrees later in life when FIRE is nearing. I've seen advice on MMM about teaching children the value of avoiding clown lifestyles because they grow up believing their childhoods are the norm, and those beliefs can be hard to change. The advice on this forum is rooted in sound financial analysis and given in a well meant way, even when it is tough to digest. It's easy for thread commenters with no personal attachments to objectively discern where the numbers don't match up, and easy for the original thread posters to get upset about their sacred cows being off limits. It just so happens in this post, the glaring issue is a mixture of getting a degree with no intent to use (or possibly life changed- the future is hard to predict) when their priorities don't mix with their current financial record. That's not a women's rights issue. If the OP did not like her program of choice and that's why the degree is unused, it's a great teaching moment for her kids. My DH quit college a few times, and it's a discussion we have with our kids, because those teaching moments could have a profound impact on life later on. The OP's kids are old enough to hear that finances are choices (which presumably she is telling them when she cancels subscriptions) and that one of the ways to strengthen your financial position is by working.

What fuzzy math said.  The spirit of MMM is to challenge conventional thinking about money, life styles and sacred cows, deliver face punches when needed, point out clown lifestyles, ivy league pre-school syndrome and tiny details exaggeration syndrome-- particularly, as in your case, where you have an emergency hair on fire situation. It can be hard to hear these things and I'm not sure I would ever have the guts to post a Case Study myself for this very reason.

Anyway, it's perfectly fine to choose to spend money on things that are very important to you, just as others on this forum have done.  However, your case study is entitled "financial independence retire EVER???" and you've rightly pointed out that this is an emergency situation. since this is, we are within our rights to point out the elephant in the room as far as your finances are concerned.

[freya]

I agree that the tradeoff between the SAHM lifestyle and income needed be carefully considered, but...their income is $150K per year plus bonuses, which puts them into the upper 5% of US households.  Shouldn't this be enough???  And if you can't be a SAHM on that level of income, when can you do it?

It is true that taking out a lot of student loans and then not working is probably not the world's best plan, but this is what the OP has lined up and they can deal with it.  I was actually more concerned with their choice of an expensive home and a second expensive car for a long work commute.  Disposing of the debts and accumulating savings will require a lot of financial discipline which has been extensively discussed, and which the OP is committed to following up on.

My own student loan situation was far worse:  I started with a loan amount that was 1.3 x my annual pay.  I got to a positive net worth in 2 years, and knocked the loan off completely in 10 years, while buying an expensive apartment.  15 years out, I'm now close to being FI and I have almost 70% equity in my home.  There is no reason why OP can't accomplish her goals as long as her DH continues to have that level of earning power.

A single income is definitely riskier than 2 incomes, especially with a big mortgage, so they should be extra aggressive in cutting expenses and accumulating savings.  And I can't remember if they had life/disability insurance for DH, but that should be high priority.

[insufFIcientfunds]

You know, I took some face punching when I started this thread, and I laughed about it because I earned those face punches fair and square. But I didn't come here for parenting advice. Please hear me when I tell you that I have put a lot of thought into every comment anyone has written regarding my financial situation. I posted hoping for expert advice, and it's given out freely here, which is amazing!!! But, again, I do not want, nor did I ask for, opinions about how we educate our children.

I realize I didn't clearly state it at the onset, so let me address it further for the first and final time: Sending our children to school, this year, is not up for discussion. Not in this forum. Will our plans change in 2020? They could. But any changes would only be decided by the five people who live under this roof together. We allow our daughters to have a voice in their educations.

Which is an interesting juxtaposition considering what I've read in a couple of comments left here today. Far, far, far from pigeonholing my daughters, by staying home I'm demonstrating to them the power of choice. Every day, I model what it looks like to pursue interests in life. Every day, they see how much their father and I value our relationships. I could go on and on, but I'm not going to because I don't feel the need to defend our choices. If choosing to spend every minute of these years with my children means my husband and I don't achieve our financial goals, well, that will be hard. But it's a risk we're willing to take. And part of what compelled me to come here in the first place was to find ways we could do both -- with a lot of focus, dedication, and yes, possibly even me working again, maybe we can secure our financial future as well as maintain the life we're living (more frugally). My husband agrees -- we'd both rather sell our house and move into a rental than change the time we spend together as a homeschooling family. It's that important to us. And it's just one of the avenues we're researching.

And, so, now that I've explained how much of a priority homeschooling is to us, can we drop it? No further mom shaming. No further jabs about how I'm not contributing to our bottom line. No further assumptions about how I'm setting back women's rights. My husband and I are really freaking happy with our marriage. Our kids are healthy and thriving. There is more than one way to achieve our goals. If you don't want to support the way we're choosing to get there, just scroll on by. Or go ahead and comment about how much you disagree with me staying home for homeschooling . . . I'll just ignore it.

I hope you don't leave. I like this thread a lot. My wife is at home with the kids and this all is VERY helpful to me and something I can relate too.

[lookingforadelorean]

I hope you don't leave. I like this thread a lot. My wife is at home with the kids and this all is VERY helpful to me and something I can relate too.

Well, thank you. I don't plan to go anywhere. I really like this forum! I want to keep taking advantage of the brilliant minds available here to help me come up with creative solutions. Plus, as soon as someone implies I can't do something, it makes me work 10x harder to achieve that very goal. (I'm looking at you physics professor who said I'd never pull off the "A" final exam grade that I needed!)

[Fi(re) on the Farm]

So I've read through your whole case studies and here's my take: you've made progress but we don't all have the same opinion, the same experience, the same life. So when we question your choice to home school, it comes from a place of wanting you to achieve your goals and prepare your daughters for their own independent lives. If you look at the " relatives that just don't get it" thread, you see tons of stories where women have grown up thinking that they're hyper reliant on the men in their lives. I think that the commentators that question your choice really just want the best for you and your family.

[Cassie]

Definitely keep the house because it’s gaining value and in old age you could sell it and move to a LCOL.

[insufFIcientfunds]

I'd say keep the house too; hopefully the license thing works out as well. Even if you got your license and didn’t immediately start a side gig-type thing, you have it in your back pocket for when you are ready or when the right opportunity presents itself.

Looks like the changes you are implementing are making your household salary stretch further, and I am sure certain lifestyle/spending changes will hone that as you move forward. That's awesome, and honestly given your family income when you get your license and get in the groove with the kids, you can choose the kind of work YOU want, and not something that is necessary because you can't support your family. There is a lot to be said about that, and that's a really freeing feeling. If nothing comes up, then keep on keepin on, and if you have to work a few more years later in life to do your thing with the kids now...who cares??? I don't.

Some things we have done over the last 5-6 years that seems to have paid off is selling the kids old gently used stuff on eBay. Yes they charge fees, but if you buy your kids nice enough things and they aren’t destroyed it is kind of amazing what people will pay for them. The $$ gets dropped in my PayPal and then I use that to buy other clothes and things off eBay. I buy razors, hair products for the wife, random household things all the time because the Buy It Now often times has no shipping costs and is tax free. It's money in, money out, never touches the checking account at all. Takes a little planning though. Sucks when my razor is dull and I am out and have to wait like 5 days for the new one.

I recently also pulled the plug and went insurance shopping (home/auto) and saved a bunch, and kept the benefits the same.

One year my wife had the idea to make homemade Christmas stocking from a kit she got at Hobby Lobby. It looks impossibly hard, and it was, and didn't work out. I did joke with her she should could make them and start an Etsy shop and sell them. So not sure if you are handy/artsy/etc. but there is a ton of opportunity to make crafts or grow things and go to local festivals or farmers markets and sell them. If you could incorporate that into the kids school curriculum that's even better.

[slappy]

I think it is leaping to conclusions to assume that just because the OP and her DH have decided that homeschooling is best for their family, even though it means some financial sacrifices, this somehow sends the message to her daughters that they should expect to be SAHMs in their own adulthood.  My mom trained as a nurse and supported herself until she married my dad relatively late for the 1950s.  She stopped working as soon as she got pregnant and never went back to work.  When my dad died at age 52, she was able to support herself at a modest level on his life insurance, their savings, and SS.  I do remember her debating keeping her nursing license valid in the year or two after my dad died, and that she eventually decided to let it lapse.  Anyway, both my sister and I wanted to have careers and we did.  And our mom was happy for us.  She never pressured me to be a SAHM.

I'm not saying that it isn't worth the OP exploring how to get back into the workforce, especially since there would be some serious financial benefits to that.  But she is lucky to have trained in a field that can afford some flexibility -- pretty high demand for counsellors that can offer evening and weekend hours.  So if homeschooling isn't working well for them and precluding her from returning to work she enjoys, by all means look at all the options.  But I don't think it is helpful to shame somebody who is making different choices about their work and family life into doing something else by implying that she's not sending good messages to her kids.

I never shamed her and I never stated that she wasn't sending good messages to her kids. I told her that she should seek out schedule arrangements to where she can use her degree to show that a mother of older kids can homeschool and work. The kids can work autonomously at home (without being driven around constantly) and so they grow up knowing that they can choose to or to not have a career if they choose to homeschool their kids. Right now she is showing them she cannot have a career because she is a homeschool chauffeur to a separate paid program. She is also terrified that her DH won't be able to retire at age 67, when the OP will be 73.

I'm not dissing on SAHPs, your mom included. She at least had the option of going back to work once you were school aged. With homeschooling that option frequently isn't present, because it's a very separate community where your ties largely depend on you remaining a homeschooling family. My DH was a SAHP while my kids were too young to go to school. Now that they're school age, we both work. My mom was a SAHP when my sibling and I were young, went back to school when we were school age, and started in the professional work force afterwards. My best friend is a SAHP and refuses to use her accounting degree because she didn't like the program from day 1. If she were to ask me how to make or save more $$, I'd tell her that working is the easiest way (and that would not be shaming her). Since she hasn't, I don't randomly tell her she is not maximizing her potential. I even have a homeschooling mom friend who FIREd before she had kids. The difference is that she can afford it. The OP is nearing that point in her life where it would be feasible to work part time outside of the home with no ill effect on her children. I have fond memories of my parents being at work and my sibling and I having the home alone to ourselves. I also believe it's important for siblings to work things out without parents around, and separately with their peer groups.

We offer advice to people who have justifications for too expensive of homes, cars, poor city vs earnings ratios etc. We give advice on the diminishing returns of additional degrees later in life when FIRE is nearing. I've seen advice on MMM about teaching children the value of avoiding clown lifestyles because they grow up believing their childhoods are the norm, and those beliefs can be hard to change. The advice on this forum is rooted in sound financial analysis and given in a well meant way, even when it is tough to digest. It's easy for thread commenters with no personal attachments to objectively discern where the numbers don't match up, and easy for the original thread posters to get upset about their sacred cows being off limits. It just so happens in this post, the glaring issue is a mixture of getting a degree with no intent to use (or possibly life changed- the future is hard to predict) when their priorities don't mix with their current financial record. That's not a women's rights issue. If the OP did not like her program of choice and that's why the degree is unused, it's a great teaching moment for her kids. My DH quit college a few times, and it's a discussion we have with our kids, because those teaching moments could have a profound impact on life later on. The OP's kids are old enough to hear that finances are choices (which presumably she is telling them when she cancels subscriptions) and that one of the ways to strengthen your financial position is by working.

What fuzzy math said.  The spirit of MMM is to challenge conventional thinking about money, life styles and sacred cows, deliver face punches when needed, point out clown lifestyles, ivy league pre-school syndrome and tiny details exaggeration syndrome-- particularly, as in your case, where you have an emergency hair on fire situation. It can be hard to hear these things and I'm not sure I would ever have the guts to post a Case Study myself for this very reason.

Anyway, it's perfectly fine to choose to spend money on things that are very important to you, just as others on this forum have done.  However, your case study is entitled "financial independence retire EVER???" and you've rightly pointed out that this is an emergency situation. since this is, we are within our rights to point out the elephant in the room as far as your finances are concerned.

This is my favorite post! I question everything and its not typically received well. When I was in college, I had a business teacher that gave us a business problem and made us come up with 25 "solutions" to the problem before we could even go into detail on any of them. Of course, by the time we get to 25, the "solution" is to have a monkey do the hiring or something silly like that. The point is, you never know what kind of silly solution may lead to an actual solution and you can't discount things at face value without digging deeper. (This is especially relevant to the SAHP discussion. I have mom friends who would "give anything" to be a SAHM, as long as "anything" isn't their new car, target trips, etc.)

We have a SAHP and I'm definitely not brave enough to post a case study!

[lookingforadelorean]

I'd say keep the house too; hopefully the license thing works out as well. Even if you got your license and didn’t immediately start a side gig-type thing, you have it in your back pocket for when you are ready or when the right opportunity presents itself.

Looks like the changes you are implementing are making your household salary stretch further, and I am sure certain lifestyle/spending changes will hone that as you move forward. That's awesome, and honestly given your family income when you get your license and get in the groove with the kids, you can choose the kind of work YOU want, and not something that is necessary because you can't support your family. There is a lot to be said about that, and that's a really freeing feeling. If nothing comes up, then keep on keepin on, and if you have to work a few more years later in life to do your thing with the kids now...who cares??? I don't.

Some things we have done over the last 5-6 years that seems to have paid off is selling the kids old gently used stuff on eBay. Yes they charge fees, but if you buy your kids nice enough things and they aren’t destroyed it is kind of amazing what people will pay for them. The $$ gets dropped in my PayPal and then I use that to buy other clothes and things off eBay. I buy razors, hair products for the wife, random household things all the time because the Buy It Now often times has no shipping costs and is tax free. It's money in, money out, never touches the checking account at all. Takes a little planning though. Sucks when my razor is dull and I am out and have to wait like 5 days for the new one.

I recently also pulled the plug and went insurance shopping (home/auto) and saved a bunch, and kept the benefits the same.

One year my wife had the idea to make homemade Christmas stocking from a kit she got at Hobby Lobby. It looks impossibly hard, and it was, and didn't work out. I did joke with her she should could make them and start an Etsy shop and sell them. So not sure if you are handy/artsy/etc. but there is a ton of opportunity to make crafts or grow things and go to local festivals or farmers markets and sell them. If you could incorporate that into the kids school curriculum that's even better.

One of my goals is to get down to the basement to tackle old toys. We have a fair number of quality wood items that I know will have pretty good resale value. It’s just a matter of cleaning stuff up, researching prices, taking photos, etc.

We love to craft around here, and our kids managed to score a booth at an upcoming farmers market that allows for kid vendors a couple of times each season. They’ve been knitting away at dish cloths for months! I can’t wait to see how it goes.

This is my favorite post! I question everything and its not typically received well. When I was in college, I had a business teacher that gave us a business problem and made us come up with 25 "solutions" to the problem before we could even go into detail on any of them. Of course, by the time we get to 25, the "solution" is to have a monkey do the hiring or something silly like that. The point is, you never know what kind of silly solution may lead to an actual solution and you can't discount things at face value without digging deeper. (This is especially relevant to the SAHP discussion. I have mom friends who would "give anything" to be a SAHM, as long as "anything" isn't their new car, target trips, etc.)

We have a SAHP and I'm definitely not brave enough to post a case study!

Tapping into a vast resource of unconventional thinkers is precisely why I’m here. Surely there are more solutions to me making an income beyond “put the kids in school.” I’ve never said I refused to earn an income. I simply want to maintain our homeschool. It seems to me that there would be a vast number of ways to navigate these goals. Falling back on “well, you should put the kids in school so you can work outside the home” feels myopic.

[Allie]

In thinking about what you are passionate about and what you enjoy and what is best for your family, why not expand your homeschool?  Maybe not the daily academic part of it, but if you have learned cool teaching techniques for stuff, maybe offer during the day enrichment for other home schoolers or after school "classes" for whatever it is you do as a hobby/passion.  Languages, art, gardening, test prep, household finance (once you become a mmm master), crafts, cooking, whatever.  Not everyone loves doing that sort of thing or has time to actually teach those types of skills to their kids.  Seems like it would be easier, more enjoyable, integrate better into the life that you have now, and probably more lucrative than private counseling.  Create a few classes, source materials in a way that isn't just going to michaels and buying a bunch of stuff, and open it up for whatever the going rate is for after school/homeschool enrichment.  Or tutoring in the evenings. 

[robartsd]

Late to the party, but I noticed that people left off some tax deferred space in their recommendations above.

401k - 19,000
HSA -  7,000 (assuming family coverage)
OP tIRA - 7,000 (OP is 50 so can make "catch up" contributions)

With $610/mo in pre-tax insurance AGI should be about $131,680 if maximizing these deductions. OP's husband does not qualify for tIRA deduction, so his IRA should be Roth. OP's marginal tax rate is likely 24%, maximizing tax deferred space should shave $4752 in taxes this year compared to the deductions listed in the original post (7800 401k, 5400 HSA, 7320 pre-tax insurance). Total federal income tax should come to about $13922 ($1160/mo) after child tax credits.

[Hula Hoop]

I'm sure you could work counseling around the home school schedule. Don't most private patients prefer after work and weekend appointments?

[Steeze]

I personally will not take a dr appointment before 530pm unless it’s a Saturday.

[lookingforadelorean]

Yes, definitely, getting back into the counseling field is appealing because of its flexibility.

[theskyisblue]

It occurred to me that you might be a great host family for an international student if you have (or can create) an extra bedroom.  Does that appeal at all?  That can bring in some serious money ($600-1K per month in HCOL areas) and it would be a great fit with homeschooling.  Your kids learn about another country and your family would be more available to the student than a traditional, two-working parent, regular school attending family. Anyone curious about this option is welcome to ask here or PM me.  We were a host family for >7 years.

I also wondered if you could run a formal or informal afterschool program for regular school kids.  That also seems like a win-win that could bring in additional money for something you are already doing.  I don't know what afterschool costs are like in your town but let's say you charged modest 15.00 per hour for two hours.  If you could get two kids who needed afterschool every day, that's an extra $300 per week for something that fits into the homeschooling lifestyle.

[lookingforadelorean]

It occurred to me that you might be a great host family for an international student if you have (or can create) an extra bedroom.  Does that appeal at all?  That can bring in some serious money ($600-1K per month in HCOL areas) and it would be a great fit with homeschooling.  Your kids learn about another country and your family would be more available to the student than a traditional, two-working parent, regular school attending family. Anyone curious about this option is welcome to ask here or PM me.  We were a host family for >7 years.

Thanks for letting me know about this. I have thought about hosting before just for the experience, but I had no idea we were compensated for it. Doesn’t that monthly fee go toward food and expenses for the student? We have a finished basement with a 3/4 bath, so the student would have her own private space.

That said, I mentioned our thoughts about selling over in my journal, but I’m hearing crickets over there. Mr. LDL is going to look at an apartment building tonight to see if it would work for us. We are pondering whether we could/should sell our house next spring (and spend the next 9 months minimizing/decluttering).

[freya]

Going from a house to an apartment is a good move in the long term, but are you ready for it?  It's an unusual move to make when you still have kids at home.

It would certainly fix the lawn/garden maintenance issue nicely, but an apartment does tend to feel more closed in than a house.   This depends a lot on the layout, and whether there's access to outdoor spaces and places nearby to walk to.  Just something to think about while you're looking.

We all can't wait to hear how the finances work out though!

[insufFIcientfunds]

We are temp housed at mother-in-law until new house is done and the relocation has been TOUGH on the kids. Out of their house and routine. We needed to do it because we got an offer we could not say no to on our last house, but it's been hard on them mentally.

2 weeks and we are moving. Going to be the best day ever.

On the flip side, your kids might see it as more of an adventure and love it. Plus there are times as moms and dads where you got to do what you got to do.

[lookingforadelorean]

Going from a house to an apartment is a good move in the long term, but are you ready for it?  It's an unusual move to make when you still have kids at home.

It would certainly fix the lawn/garden maintenance issue nicely, but an apartment does tend to feel more closed in than a house.   This depends a lot on the layout, and whether there's access to outdoor spaces and places nearby to walk to.  Just something to think about while you're looking.

We all can't wait to hear how the finances work out though!

Yes, the apartment vs. house issue has so many pros and cons. We don't want to rely strictly on the financial aspect, but on the other hand, we're mainly concerned about the financial aspect! Gah! I think I might post a separate question about selling in another section because I really want to help on calculating the short and long-term benefits.

We are temp housed at mother-in-law until new house is done and the relocation has been TOUGH on the kids. Out of their house and routine. We needed to do it because we got an offer we could not say no to on our last house, but it's been hard on them mentally.

2 weeks and we are moving. Going to be the best day ever.

On the flip side, your kids might see it as more of an adventure and love it. Plus there are times as moms and dads where you got to do what you got to do.

Congrats on your new home! That's exciting. And yes, I anticipate the kids' reactions being the toughest aspect of this. DH and I are looking at it as a big adventure, but I'm not entirely sure how they'll come around to it. When we moved to WA, we were in a temp apartment until we closed on our house, and it was actually really fun. But was that because we all knew it was a temporary arrangement?

[theskyisblue]

Thanks for letting me know about this. I have thought about hosting before just for the experience, but I had no idea we were compensated for it. Doesn’t that monthly fee go toward food and expenses for the student? We have a finished basement with a 3/4 bath, so the student would have her own private space.

That said, I mentioned our thoughts about selling over in my journal, but I’m hearing crickets over there. Mr. LDL is going to look at an apartment building tonight to see if it would work for us. We are pondering whether we could/should sell our house next spring (and spend the next 9 months minimizing/decluttering).

Sorry for the reply like 10 months later (okay 2 months later).  Sometimes, hosting companies pay outright and they issue a 1099 and you pay taxes.  Sometimes, they pay for "room and board" and you don't pay taxes but the room is money for you and the board is usually more generous than it actually costs to feed the student.  We definitely did not have 800 a month in additional expenses from our two international students who barely ate in our home while they were busy hanging out all over Boston with their friends.