Case study: Buying a parent a home??

[20957]

Quick thought about a hoarding specialty therapist - is there any chance that she could see one who basically was willing to act as a "regular" counselor for a while, then eventually broach the living situation and how to retrain her mind to handle the anxiety of parting with things? They are trained in general psych presumably, so it wouldn't be fraud. In your shoes I would call and ask. It's amazing that she is willing to see someone, that's a huge step.

[Linea_Norway]

But if the OP sells her mother's house, puts the money in her name and buys a new house for her mother, then I would think the OP must pay some inheritence money if that is applicable where you live. And if the new house will get trashed, the OP will loose money that was invested in the house. I would suggest that the OP does not get her own finances involved with her trainwreck mother. Just helping with practicle and moral things, but not economically, other than giving away money as a gift, not expecting anything of it back.

Yes, maybe paying for a housekeeper to keep mother's new home clean every other week, would be a good investment...

Not sure how much of the thread you got through but my mom's current home isn't in a condition to let housekeepers in.  She's got some pretty serious fundamental things going on in the house such that housekeeping is pretty low on the list of priorities.

Or did I misunderstand and you were instead saying to get my mom housekeeping if I were able to get my mom to use the proceeds from the sale of her current home to purchase another home herself?

What I meant to say was that if your mother moved into a new home, then maybe a house keeper that visits regularly could keep it a bit tidy and motivate your mother to not make a complete mess of the new home. But I do see that if your mother fills up the new home pretty quickly, that a house keeper very soon can't do his/her job anymore.

[EconDiva]

It's been days since I've posted in this thread because I didn't think it would have so many responses, and there has been such valuable information here that I'm a bit overwhelmed with what is the best direction to move in at this point.  I want to say that I really appreciate all of the feedback. 

I haven't posted in this thread in several days because there is so much to think about.  Over the past week some days I feel like I should just focus on me and buy myself a home and come back to her situation later.  Other times I feel the urge that I absolutely need to move closer to her 'now' as her roof could probably cave in on her any day now.  Overall, I've been thinking that in order to take this situation in 'baby steps', I should probably focus on (a) getting a car, (b) moving closer to her and renting my own place there and then (c) attending therapy sessions with her.  I think that by the time all of that is in place I will start to have a more clear head as to what direction to take next.  I could find I'd be wasting my time trying to get her a place (shoot, I could move there and she might just change her mind about even doing therapy) and would just be better off buying my own home there as opposed to where I live now to be closer to her for when SHTF type scenarios arise. 

At least, that's kinda how I feel about things today anyways...

[EconDiva]

I'm glad that Frankie's Girl chimed here as I think she has the most experience with hoarding parents. She also chronicled the clean out and sale of her late father's home on this website including photos. Hoarding is a horrible affliction.

I think another poster mentioned this, but can we get the link to this?  I think it would be helpful.

[EconDiva]

If you ever sell her house for her (with her permission), then don't put the money on a savings account in her name, but buy something that will pay out a fixed sum monthly (would that be a CD?, I am not into American accounts). That way she can continue to live paycheck to paycheck. Giving her the lumb sum will probably make her spend it all at once.

Excellent point.  When my grandfather passed 5 years ago, she was unemployed and the home was in foreclosure.  I told her I wanted to help her with the money she was getting and because it was a very emotional time (we were to bury him soon) she basically told me to mind my own business about her inheritance.  So that $25k is now long gone and now, years later, who is she now lamenting to about it?

Now she is finally voicing how disappointed she is that she spent it all with nothing to show and how she can't believe she did that.  I mean, I understand she used it to live on, but if she would have let me help her I truly believe she'd still have some money left to get out of this house that is falling down around her.  Anyways, water under the bridge, but now that she's speaking about how bad she feels I 'hope' this was a HUGE lesson learned. 

[EconDiva]

Wow, this story sounds like the one in the Glass Castle...

Had actually never heard of it...looked up the story on Wikipedia and man...what a story. 

[EconDiva]

I'm glad that Frankie's Girl chimed here as I think she has the most experience with hoarding parents. She also chronicled the clean out and sale of her late father's home on this website including photos. Hoarding is a horrible affliction.

I want to offer my own Mom as another data point. She is also a hoarder, also lived in her home for >40 years and let it basically fall down around her. For example, the bathroom floor rotted out from a leaking toilet so that only the toilet pipe was holding up the toilet, she let the furnace die by never changing the intake filters then threw out the repair guy (in Colorado!), the fence was rotted and falling down, the yard completely overgrown, broken appliances, she never painted anything in 40 years, the vinyl tile so worn and scratched away that you could only see it had a pattern if you looked under the cabinet baseboards, etc. She also had pet birds that she let fly around the house . . . yeah, your imagination about the bird poop situation is correct. My brother and I tried to help her, and she would be initially receptive and then get really nasty. I stopped trying to help because I have boundaries about being treated badly. My brother helped a couple of years longer and he got the rotted out floor replaced so she wouldn't fall into the crawlspace, then he also stopped.

Me refusing to visit her home (I'd stay in a motel 6, which offended her) and him telling her he was done trying to help her fix things and that he also wasn't going to visit her anymore seemed to be rock bottom for her. It took her an entire year, but she managed to cull her hoard enough that she could move. After she was out with what she wanted to take with her she told two "down on their luck" neighbors they could take whatever was left behind and sell it as long as they took it all. They kept their word and took it all out. She acts like she was doing them a favor by letting them have her precious hoard leftovers, but I think they were more happy to get her out of the neighborhood because she was dragging down their home values. She then sold it "as is" to a flipper.

She bought a new modular home near my brother. Yes, she still hoards, but it's not as bad as it was before. For one thing, she doesn't have the birds anymore, just two dogs and a growing collection of cats. I'm hoping the cats at least keep the vermin out (she had a vermin issue in her previous house.) She also lives in a tiny town now with less opportunity for finding stuff to hoard. Family checks on her daily.

EconDiva, at one time I entertained buying her a home, but now I'm glad I didn't do it. She is trashing her own new house. She tried to pressure my brother and his wife into picking out everything for it, saying things like "it's all going to be yours some day", but they refused to humor her. So, she picked the color of the carpet she is destroying. My nephew moved in with her for awhile and that seemed to help (he did stuff like vacuum and mow the lawn.) She's also run out of money which makes spending on her hoarding affliction more of a challenge. But, it is still just a gradual slide into this home ending up just like the last one. As Frankie's Girl said, it's a disease.

That all being said, I do think that overall the move was very positive for her. Like your Mom, she would have refused to go into an apartment, which she views as throwing money away. Ironic, isn't it?

If you can get your mom to move, then that will be a big step in the right direction. If you buy a home for her, though, expect her to trash it and don't get upset when she does. My advice would be to buy the absolute smallest home you can find that is in good condition. If you can get something in cash on hand, do that rather than a mortgage. Do put only your name on the title. Hiring a maid service to clean biweekly would be a big help, I'm sure, if you can afford and she will allow it (my own mom never will allow maids into her home.) Good luck!

Birds?  Really?  BIRDS??

Well, I thank goodness that's not something I'd have to deal with with my mom.

Thank you for sharing your story.  This is one of a few very rare times where I haven't felt so alone in all of this.  One of my best friends says I need to start involving my brother with this but he is pretty estranged from her (and my family as a whole) and I'm trying to keep what little bit of a 'relationship' we have separate from her so to speak. 

You mentioning that she hit rock bottom after you and her brother stopped visiting struck a chord with me.  Since my sibling is practically not speaking to her and will not visit, I also think this is part of what is pushing her to strive for some sort of change.  I know that right now the only thing she really wants in her life is to have a relationship with him and it is hurting her to the core that she doesn't. 

I also stay in hotels when I visit my mom.  I felt so guilty I'm only 4 hours away and last month was the first time I'd visited in 2 years.  But I spent over $1000 for a hotel, car rental, gas and food while there.  (I'm low on points/miles right now; I usually wouldn't even spend that on a two week vacation to Europe). 

At least in your scenario your mom used her own money to purchase her own newer place.  My mom won't have the cash to buy another home outright.  I won't either to be honest.  I mean, I guess we could technically sell her house and I could make up the difference by gifting her enough to put maybe half down on a newer place.  I'd still be paying her mortgage on the newer place but I'd be putting less of my own money up front for the downpayment.

The more I go back and read through these comments, the less I feel like putting a ton of my money into this situation would be a good idea.  You're right about buying her something cash but right now I don't have enough for us to be able to do that outright.  Proceeds from the sale of her house + funds from me today would only get her like "half a house" in the newer city. 

[EconDiva]

If you are up for having your mom as a neighbor, that's a great way to go - although not a single family house, unless you want to be the one to maintain it!  If that's not what you want, then assisted/independent/"senior" living is something to consider.  People are moving into these in their 60s, so no not too early.   I thought of this because you're basically saying your mom can't manage living in a single-family house on her own.  What prevented her from getting the plumbing fixed in her house?

As far as having her as my neighbor...ummmm...I had determined that would probably be a bad idea.

Honestly my first thought was to buy a duplex and have her live in one half with me.  Then once she's all settled I can move out and have a tenant cover the mortgage.  That way, I still get to buy 'my' own first house and have some type of property paid off by my own retirement as a revenue stream.  I also accomplish getting her out of her current house...quickly because I am in a position to buy myself something now.  It also solves the issue of me having to pay a mortgage for her; the tenant could cover most of that.

The issue with this scenario is us living so close together.  I had really resigned myself to thinking that would be a horrible idea.  But every other week I'm revisiting this as an option because last month I had sat down and written out several options with pro's/con's and this one arose as the top option with the highest number of pro's. 

The other issue is, just based on looking online, I cannot actually find any duplexes in the new city I'd be trying to move her to.  The population there is about 150,000 and I get that in many cities duplexes are like rare gems...so in a small city like this I literally have not been able to find any for sale lately.  (Perhaps upon moving there and getting with a realtor I'd have more success with this; not sure...).  The other alternative is a house with walk-out basement w/separate entrance.  Biggest issue with that is I don't see her being as comfortable staying in a place like that once I'd moved out (she has a lot of fear/anxiety related to personal safety)...

RE: the water situation...you asked what prevented her from fixing it.  I don't know.  She's been given money to fix it more than once.  I assume she spent it on other things.  Overdue bills, trinkets/gifts for other people, car maintenance...I know she would even give small amounts of money away when she was unemployed so yeah.  The other piece to that is, she would have to let people into the house to fix the water.  She generally does not allow for that.  Last month when I went home I was practically greeted with her saying that she was 'sorry for my health stuff and all' that had happened earlier that day that prevented me from being there several hours earlier, but that she was 'expecting' me to be there on time when the hauling people arrived.  Smh.  I knew she would be upset I wasn't there because again, she has anxiety around safety and that was probably the first time she'd let unknown people in the house for probably over 15 years. 

[EconDiva]

I’ve had some experience with this in my own parents. Several years ago I cleaned out my dads house while he was hospitalized.  His own living conditions likely made him sick.  It was a huge transformation but he didn’t change his ways at all. 

I think if you keep your expectations low this could work.  My dad was never able to clean his place and chose not too even when he could.  He barely threw basic trash away or did dishes, the everyday basics. Every time I came over I did a big house clean up to help out. I came to expect it and it didn’t bother me too much. 

Doing a big reboot like moving her to a whole new place sounds like the best plan. Then w you nearby you can help maintain everything. At 60 she is not thriving or even coming close and that’s still so young.  Hopefully you can help her change her ways or at least help keep her going. Mental health issues are tough but there’s more help out there than ever before.  A visit to her primary care doctor to get a physical and blood work would be great. Low vitamin D can mess you up. Something else can be going on too. Frequent UTI’s are common in older people and they can mess w you mentally.  A good multivitamin and maybe some St. John’s wort could go a long way.

I’d caution you on investing her house proceeds.  If she needs state aid she’ll likely not qualify w savings in the bank. Or what if she needs to file bankruptcy again. The money may be safer in house equity.  States have exemptions on home equity, amounts vary, Medicaid will allow you to have a home but not lots of cash in the bank. It also may be better for you to keep the house in your name or both of you. Everything in her name risks her getting a mortgage on the house, liens or lines of credit etc.  If you co own or it’s all yours then you’d have to sign also so at least you’d know if she was trying to get funds.  Think worse case scenarios and how the house and money will survive and go from there.

It’s wonderful you’re able to help but this is a tough road. You have to take care of yourself too and keep a balance here. It’s hard to see loved ones not care for themselves and even act in very self destructive ways.  Caring more about their situations than they do, at some point I had to remind myself that they’re free to make these choices. 

My brothers bailed out both my parents. Bought them homes, they both were trashed from bad housekeeping and animals that weren’t properly cared for,  putting it mildly. It was very difficult to visit them over the years. I ended up being the opposite of them and I’m naturally good at house keeping and maintenance. I tell my kids if my house gets that bad to please help me, something is seriously wrong.   

And yes the apartment thing is a status issue.  My mother lived in them briefly and it didn’t go well. She was much happier in a detached home.

Thank you for the info RE: the funds from the sale of her house being safer parked as home equity.  I never realized or even thought about this before.

Keeping balance will indeed be important, and I've been very cautioned about this by others.  It's on my radar as something that will be very important. 

Regarding the bolded statement; that's the thing...being 'free' to make choices is one thing, but being 'capable' of making good, rational decisions that keep a person living a decent quality of life that is sustainable long term and safe/not intrusive to themselves/others is a totally different ballgame...

[EconDiva]

^Yes, I think this is exactly it. My mom always seemed to regard the apartment complex near where I lived as the trashy part of town . . .

Plus, when you own, no landlord can make you do their bidding or make you move. My Mom is uber paranoid and any stranger having keys to her home would freak her out.

My mom is the exact same way....what's with the uber paranoia?

[EconDiva]

wow - such an eloquent and sad POV on this. I can feel it right along with her.

I don't know what the best path forward is, but wishing you both the best!

Thank you.

[EconDiva]

She should get on the list for low income senior housing.

100% agree.

Again, if she considers this unreasonable, then that's a her problem, not a you problem

Thank you both; I will look into this.  See, if I were there right now I'd go looking at some of those places in person.

I need to slowly start exposing her to more and more places/types of homes and getting her used to the idea of moving because it's going to be hard just getting her to agree to do that.  A small apartment would be so much more difficult to get her to agree to go to.  Doing the original 2/2 house idea, 'then' eventually a small home in say another decade would probably be less challenging in terms of her agreeing to move. 

The issue I have with senior housing is I'd have to pay for that...forever.  Houses/property taxes are cheap in the city I want to move her to so at least if she got a 2/2 house that would eventually be paid off.  I expect rent for senior housing would go up every year.  I'm very curious now what this would cost though.

I think mentally she's going to lump "senior housing" in with the entire "old folks home" category she has in her head without really knowing/understanding or being open to understanding what it's all about and the potential perks.  Again, a case in which I need to expose her to this and help her see the pro's associated in such a scenario.

[EconDiva]

She should get on the list for low income senior housing.

100% agree.

Again, if she considers this unreasonable, then that's a her problem, not a you problem

Absolutely.  You can't want this more than she does.  That will never, ever work.  If she's not willing to make sacrifices like living in a [perfectly nice and spacious] apartment, then so be it.  She can continue to live in her hoard.  If it's not worth it to her to make that supposed sacrifice, then how can you have any real hope that she has truly seen why the hoarding is problematic and needs to change?  Likewise with low income senior housing--if she's only willing to change if she gets to do so by spending as much of your money as she deems necessary, that's not fair to you and it's not indicative that she's committed to this.

I agree.

[EconDiva]

Quick thought about a hoarding specialty therapist - is there any chance that she could see one who basically was willing to act as a "regular" counselor for a while, then eventually broach the living situation and how to retrain her mind to handle the anxiety of parting with things? They are trained in general psych presumably, so it wouldn't be fraud. In your shoes I would call and ask. It's amazing that she is willing to see someone, that's a huge step.

I agree that this is a huge step; she was the one that brought it up to me actually too.

I honestly think that once my sibling basically stopped speaking to her (during an incident where she made it clear she would by no means ever see a therapist), that this had a major impact. 

I agree with this approach and was already thinking this would be the route I take so I will have some calls to make in the near future...

[EconDiva]

But if the OP sells her mother's house, puts the money in her name and buys a new house for her mother, then I would think the OP must pay some inheritence money if that is applicable where you live. And if the new house will get trashed, the OP will loose money that was invested in the house. I would suggest that the OP does not get her own finances involved with her trainwreck mother. Just helping with practicle and moral things, but not economically, other than giving away money as a gift, not expecting anything of it back.

Yes, maybe paying for a housekeeper to keep mother's new home clean every other week, would be a good investment...

Not sure how much of the thread you got through but my mom's current home isn't in a condition to let housekeepers in.  She's got some pretty serious fundamental things going on in the house such that housekeeping is pretty low on the list of priorities.

Or did I misunderstand and you were instead saying to get my mom housekeeping if I were able to get my mom to use the proceeds from the sale of her current home to purchase another home herself?

What I meant to say was that if your mother moved into a new home, then maybe a house keeper that visits regularly could keep it a bit tidy and motivate your mother to not make a complete mess of the new home. But I do see that if your mother fills up the new home pretty quickly, that a house keeper very soon can't do his/her job anymore.

Ok; gotcha.  Agree a housekeeper could help if getting her into a newer home ends up being the route we take.

[Cassie]

Senior housing is 30% of your income. It’s designed so that the senior can pay for it themselves.  You would not be paying. I know seniors living in nice apartments with a low SS only that pay their own bills.  You should change your mindset from you supporting her to helping her with supports so she can be a adult and support herself.  When my grandpa died there was no survivor option for his small pension to leave to my grandma. They had always been frugal but lived through the depression, etc. Even with a low income senior apartment she couldn’t afford all her medication so sure her kids paid for it. 
They also took her out to eat and to do things.  Thankfully the laws around pension survivorship has changed.

[cchrissyy]

The issue I have with senior housing is I'd have to pay for that...forever.  Houses/property taxes are cheap in the city I want to move her to so at least if she got a 2/2 house that would eventually be paid off.

I'm sorry to say this but I think with a hoarder, there's no way the story ends with a paid-off home. In the end you'll have a tear-down or other severely destroyed situation that will cause you even more headaches to get rid of it.  And you'll wish you'd been paying rent and somebody else had been covering the maintenance and the ultimate clean up and loss of property value. 

So, let this idea go. The conventional "buy vs rent" thinking doesn't apply here.  Also, I agree if it is at all possible she should get on low income senior housing. It's nice you can pay as a last resort but don't offer that as plan A B or C.

[EconDiva]

Senior housing is 30% of your income. It’s designed so that the senior can pay for it themselves.  You would not be paying. I know seniors living in nice apartments with a low SS only that pay their own bills.  You should change your mindset from you supporting her to helping her with supports so she can be a adult and support herself.  When my grandpa died there was no survivor option for his small pension to leave to my grandma. They had always been frugal but lived through the depression, etc. Even with a low income senior apartment she couldn’t afford all her medication so sure her kids paid for it. 
They also took her out to eat and to do things.  Thankfully the laws around pension survivorship has changed.

Ah I see...this goes to show my ignorance with all of this.

In reading your post I decided to go and look at two senior housing places online; by their pictures alone it is going to be a struggle getting her to visit these places.

I posted a response upthread earlier today basically stating I'll need to take baby steps with all of this.  If she indeed will do the therapy she has agreed to then that is perhaps (along with the support of her church) going to be my best chances of getting her to open her mind to this kind of change.

[Cassie]

You are being a good daughter. Just remember hoarders can be very stubborn. In the end she will need to make a decision to change her life. She may just stay in her house and let it fall down around her until it gets condemned. This is a illness and change is difficult.

[EconDiva]

You are being a good daughter. Just remember hoarders can be very stubborn. In the end she will need to make a decision to change her life. She may just stay in her house and let it fall down around her until it gets condemned. This is a illness and change is difficult.

Remember?? Girl I am reminded of this EVERY single time I talk to her. lol

But I agree with you that it could get that bad; I am just nervous and trying so hard to be proactive.  With the no water issue, electrical issues, and mention of her having started a few small fires in the house via candles, etc., I am trying to mitigate the risk of certain potential big things happening on a sudden/emergent basis. 

Change is so hard indeed with hoarders.  So hard.

[Metalcat]

Just reading your replied is exhausting.

The level of energy you are having to put in, trying to spend your own money to help someone who isn't particularly motivated to help themselves.

I really wish you could see what this looks like from the outside.

Look, I get the instinct of needing to help your mom.
I think looking at reasonable options, budgeting for them, and then offering them to her is the ONLY reasonable options.

By that, I mean, do some research, put together a list of workable options, and offer to help her if she chooses one of those reasonable options, but leave the decision up to her.

It's this awful and highly inappropriate process of you trying to push her to care about things she has never cared about, that's the part that will kill you.

She isn't a child, and she definitely isn't your child.
Unless you think this situation is at the level where there should be some kind of conservatorship, then you need to respect her autonomy, especially if you don't respect her decisions.

I mentioned the apartment option upthread, not because I think that she'll go for it, but specifically because she probably won't.

If subsidizing an apartment for her is actually the best option for her and you can comfortably afford it, and she says "no"???
Well, you really can't do more.
Also, you really SHOULDN'T do more.

Your mother is an adult who makes her own decisions.
They are terrible and dangerous decisions, but that's not up to you to change. Don't take on that weight, it's unhealthy and completely inappropriate.