I'm not sure I follow on the skill decline statement. Are you not currently working as an Engineer?
Personally, I would not recommend entering a Ph.D. program while still in debt, especially because in this case it seems to be more of an attempt to escape from a situation you are miserable in rather than a real passion for academic research. Ph.Ds are hard.
As you weigh your options I would encourage you think carefully about how you are going to get rid of that debt on a grad student stipend. Don't drag it around for any longer than you have to.
What is your highest degree you have now?
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If you want to do research, academia, or other specialized areas then a PhD can make sense. But otherwise I feel the ROI curve inverts moving from MS to PhD for engineering and it isn’t worth the blood, sweat, tears, and most importantly lost earnings.
If you really want to go to graduate school, I think you should go while your chances are still good to get into grad school and while you are still young and without dependents and other financial responsibilities.
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I would aggressively try to pay off as much of those loans as possible before starting grad school. And I would only accept a program that provides a stipend so that I would not need to incur extra loans for my grad degree.
So the big questions here are what your post-graduate income would be, how you'd pay any on them while in school / cover your expenses, which are both difficult, versus today. It would also help to know your loan interest rates - because I assume you'll go into deferment while you're back in school.
What is your highest degree you have now?
I have a BS and MS in engineering and my husband does as well, his being in mechanical engineering. We have a friend from undergrad who also did a BS in mechanical and then went on to get a PhD. I’ve watched and compared our trajectories over the years.
From watching him it appears that for engineering at least, a PhD mostly slows you down. He started his working career at least four years after us and therefore lost out on that time for saving and investing. When he did graduate he found it a bit harder to find a job in industry due to the specialization done in grad school. We didn’t compare salaries, but my experience recruiting and hiring college grads at all levels taught me that a PhD brings you into a large company at a level 3 (vs 1 for a BS). It took me about four or five years of work experience to move from level 1 to 3. That all means that we ended up at pretty much the same place in our careers at the same time, with the difference that my husband and I had 4-5 years of work experience and associated savings under our belts while our PhD friend did not.
The masters has been a good career payoff.
If you want to do research, academia, or other specialized areas then a PhD can make sense. But otherwise I feel the ROI curve inverts moving from MS to PhD for engineering and it isn’t worth the blood, sweat, tears, and most importantly lost earnings.
As a PhD student in Canada you most likely are paid by the University to do research and to be a teaching assistant so you don't have to go into debt but you can barely survive with the money. Go for PhD only if you love academy and research, those are the best jobs for PhD graduates.
What is your highest degree you have now?
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If you want to do research, academia, or other specialized areas then a PhD can make sense. But otherwise I feel the ROI curve inverts moving from MS to PhD for engineering and it isn’t worth the blood, sweat, tears, and most importantly lost earnings.
A BS, and yes, the idea is to find R&D work that isn't accessible without higher education. I have zero interest in engineering management and little interest in consulting, which I feel makes R&D the most viable alternative career path. I do have R&D and design responsibilities at my current job and will have 2 years there by the fall, so afterwards my resume will show a doctorate and 2 years' mostly-relevant experience. No idea what this will look like compared to people who have never been full-time in engineering or what my immediate earning potential will be, as most of the points of comparison I have involve going straight from undergrad to graduate. It does seem like it'll make it easier to find summer positions if I choose not to do research, though.If you really want to go to graduate school, I think you should go while your chances are still good to get into grad school and while you are still young and without dependents and other financial responsibilities.
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I would aggressively try to pay off as much of those loans as possible before starting grad school. And I would only accept a program that provides a stipend so that I would not need to incur extra loans for my grad degree.
The first part is my major concern. I feel very hesitant about trying to start grad school with a terminal PhD degree past 25. I am not considering non-compensated positions (which are scarce in ME in the first place), and the only way I could increase my savings enough to pay off everything between now and fall would be to become homeless. However, I'm likely to see a tax refund of ~$5,000 for 2021 due to the drop in income after leaving my job (assuming my 2021 tax return looks like my 2019 tax return, given that I started at my current job in the summer of 2018), and that'll go a long way to finishing off the federal loans.
What like of R&D work do you want to do? Do you have an industry in mind? Being an ME, do you like design? I can understand not wanting to be a project manager or consultant. In my work experience though while there are people who eventually pivot into those areas, there is still a large need for engineers to be engineer and do engineering. Would that interest you?What is your highest degree you have now?
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If you want to do research, academia, or other specialized areas then a PhD can make sense. But otherwise I feel the ROI curve inverts moving from MS to PhD for engineering and it isn’t worth the blood, sweat, tears, and most importantly lost earnings.
A BS, and yes, the idea is to find R&D work that isn't accessible without higher education. I have zero interest in engineering management and little interest in consulting, which I feel makes R&D the most viable alternative career path. I do have R&D and design responsibilities at my current job and will have 2 years there by the fall, so afterwards my resume will show a doctorate and 2 years' mostly-relevant experience. No idea what this will look like compared to people who have never been full-time in engineering or what my immediate earning potential will be, as most of the points of comparison I have involve going straight from undergrad to graduate. It does seem like it'll make it easier to find summer positions if I choose not to do research, though.
Are there any ways to increase income? Take on a roommate? Overtime work? Part-time job teaching English online? Delivering pizzas? Or something else that would work in your current situation?
What like of R&D work do you want to do? Do you have an industry in mind? Being an ME, do you like design? I can understand not wanting to be a project manager or consultant. In my work experience though while there are people who eventually pivot into those areas, there is still a large need for engineers to be engineer and do engineering. Would that interest you?
Can you find some people who do what you are interested in and have some informational interviews with them to see how they got where they are?
Laura's advice is pretty much what I was going to say.
I do want to add though that PhDs tend to be extremely hard on your mental health. You have a world of options available to you, and making a change to better focus on your mental health is probably a great idea. However, I have major major concerns about a PhD being the kind of place that will help you on that front.
Laura's advice is pretty much what I was going to say.
I do want to add though that PhDs tend to be extremely hard on your mental health. You have a world of options available to you, and making a change to better focus on your mental health is probably a great idea. However, I have major major concerns about a PhD being the kind of place that will help you on that front.
I do appreciate these concerns. I don't mind lots of hard work and do mind the place where I am. Working on interesting problems with friends in engineering school was the happiest time in my life, and the social isolation, lack of access to nature, and high housing costs are my major drivers of stress. At none of the places I've applied would any of these problems get worse.
The experience was so dehumanizing, I felt like a caged animal the entire time and could frequently be found shuffling down the hall exhausted at the end of a 16 hour day muttering to myself "I should have been a fucking hairdresser."
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I'm encouraging you to realistically look at the very real and MAJOR down sides of taking on a PhD in order to figure out if it will actually provide a net positive to your life.
I can confirm grad school ain't so rosy. Mine went by faster than most, but I wouldn't make that mistake again. Should we page @Tass for a more contemporaneous perspective?
Looking back, I really really wish I had paid more attention to the many warnings that my program and subsequent career were going to be brutal. At the time, I shrugged it off with "yeah, but I love a good challenge" or "Sure, but I have the personality for this type of thing" or "it will be worth it". It's not that I can't handle it, it's that all along, I had A LOT of options and by casually disregarding the level of suffering I was voluntarily entering into, I was not making the most balanced of choices.
And the big difference between working on projects as an undergrad and working on projects as a grad student is usually undergrads are given problems where someone already knows the answer (or we at least know a solution EXISTS). In grad school a lot of the problems you'll work on are ones without a solution. But at the same time it's impossible to ever prove (to yourself or to your PI) that a solution doesn't exist. (http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd070309s.gif) So everyone spends an awful lot of time with things not working right, and an awful lot of time worrying the reason things aren't working right is that they're not smart enough, or not working hard enough.
I think I will be able to do interesting and rewarding things with the degree once I get it - but I also think I could have found other interesting and rewarding things to do without it.
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To be fair, it sounds like you've already tried some of your other career options. That does give you a little more context from which to make this decision. Still, I would only recommend a PhD if you have a career goal that requires it and that you're completely sure about. Grad school just isn't worth it for its own sake.
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I am seriously skeptical that grad school would improve your quality of life when you mostly seem to reference your living situation.
...And the big difference between working on projects as an undergrad and working on projects as a grad student is usually undergrads are given problems where someone already knows the answer (or we at least know a solution EXISTS). In grad school a lot of the problems you'll work on are ones without a solution. But at the same time it's impossible to ever prove (to yourself or to your PI) that a solution doesn't exist. (http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd070309s.gif) So everyone spends an awful lot of time with things not working right, and an awful lot of time worrying the reason things aren't working right is that they're not smart enough, or not working hard enough.
This is most of why it's incredibly demoralizing.
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For what it's worth, lots of people go to grad school in their late twenties and early thirties.
If I sound desperate it's because I am; paying off this debt is a race against my own health. But that's the case whether or not I decide to go back to school.
If I sound desperate it's because I am; paying off this debt is a race against my own health. But that's the case whether or not I decide to go back to school.
Not to beat a dead horse, but:* this is true only because you say it is. No matter what you decide to do, please remember that if your health is losing the race, you can change your decision. You're the only one who has decided he needs to pay off the debt over 8 months; it would be equally reasonable to do so over 16 months or 2 years if doing so would make you less miserable now.
Prioritizing your small remaining debt above your own mental health is not rational and suggests that you may already be closer to that line than you realize.
*Meaning: let the flogging commence.
Please remember that if your health is losing the race, you can change your decision. You're the only one who has decided he needs to pay off the debt over 8 months; it would be equally reasonable to do so over 16 months or 2 years if doing so would make you less miserable now.
Prioritizing your small remaining debt above your own mental health is not rational and suggests that you may already be closer to that line than you realize.
If you aren't happy with the priorities you have set for yourself at this time, then set different priorities.
Please remember that if your health is losing the race, you can change your decision. You're the only one who has decided he needs to pay off the debt over 8 months; it would be equally reasonable to do so over 16 months or 2 years if doing so would make you less miserable now.
Prioritizing your small remaining debt above your own mental health is not rational and suggests that you may already be closer to that line than you realize.If you aren't happy with the priorities you have set for yourself at this time, then set different priorities.
I mean, I'm miserable, but it's better than spending another year perpetually terrified, which I also am with this much debt hanging over me. $40,000 in non-dischargeable debt is ~ 4x my current gross assets. This is and should be terrifying. As long as I can avoid cracking mentally, this probably gives me the best result in terms of happiness * time, and to whatever degree this lifestyle is harming my relationships it's already too late to save them. It sucks, but all my other options suck more.
Please remember that if your health is losing the race, you can change your decision. You're the only one who has decided he needs to pay off the debt over 8 months; it would be equally reasonable to do so over 16 months or 2 years if doing so would make you less miserable now.
Prioritizing your small remaining debt above your own mental health is not rational and suggests that you may already be closer to that line than you realize.If you aren't happy with the priorities you have set for yourself at this time, then set different priorities.
I mean, I'm miserable, but it's better than spending another year perpetually terrified, which I also am with this much debt hanging over me. $40,000 in non-dischargeable debt is ~ 4x my current gross assets. This is and should be terrifying. As long as I can avoid cracking mentally, this probably gives me the best result in terms of happiness * time, and to whatever degree this lifestyle is harming my relationships it's already too late to save them. It sucks, but all my other options suck more.
Have you actually evaluated a variety of options, or have you just "awfulized" to the extremes and decided to stick with the devil you know?
I.e.: how secure is your job? You're not particularly happy in it, I get that, but are you about to get fired or is the company about to go under? Are there other similar jobs you could get if you lost/quit this one? If the job is stable, then fixating on paying your debt in 8 months vs. 2 years is irrational.
On the flip side: if you decided to postpone grad school for a year and extend your debt payoff schedule accordingly, what kind of changes would that allow you to make to your current daily life that might improve it? Could you move to a better living situation? Could you afford to do more of a hobby that you really enjoy, or join a club that you're interested in, or spend time volunteering for something that is meaningful to you? Could you reinvest in your current friendships, or work on making new ones?
Or: what about job-searching now for the kind of job that would be more fulfilling? Never hurts to see what's out there, right?
I know, I know, horse is dead, autopsy commencing, stop whacking at it. But the thing is: I am dealing with depression and anxiety. And the kind of thought process you are laying out here sounds very much like those two things -- because the insidious thing about depression is it convinces you it's not worth trying to change anything, and of course the anxiety piles on by persuading you that the world will fall apart if you do. I mean, you really, really sound like me a couple of years ago, right before things got so bad that I couldn't bring myself to do my work anymore and finally admitted I needed help.
I wouldn't normally whip any of that out in conversation -- amateur psychiatry is fun!! -- but you have said that you are getting therapy, so you are clearly aware that you have something going on in your head. So please at least consider that your current analysis may not be an accurate portrayal of your actual choices and the likely consequences of each. At a minimum talk to your therapist about it, ok?
It's incredibly difficult to make responsible life decisions when you are miserable and mentally unwell.
Have you actually evaluated a variety of options, or have you just "awfulized" to the extremes and decided to stick with the devil you know?
I.e.: how secure is your job? You're not particularly happy in it, I get that, but are you about to get fired or is the company about to go under? Are there other similar jobs you could get if you lost/quit this one? If the job is stable, then fixating on paying your debt in 8 months vs. 2 years is irrational.
On the flip side: if you decided to postpone grad school for a year and extend your debt payoff schedule accordingly, what kind of changes would that allow you to make to your current daily life that might improve it? Could you move to a better living situation? Could you afford to do more of a hobby that you really enjoy, or join a club that you're interested in, or spend time volunteering for something that is meaningful to you? Could you reinvest in your current friendships, or work on making new ones?
Or: what about job-searching now for the kind of job that would be more fulfilling? Never hurts to see what's out there, right?
I know, I know, horse is dead, autopsy commencing, stop whacking at it. But the thing is: I am dealing with depression and anxiety. And the kind of thought process you are laying out here sounds very much like those two things -- because the insidious thing about depression is it convinces you it's not worth trying to change anything, and of course the anxiety piles on by persuading you that the world will fall apart if you do. I mean, you really, really sound like me a couple of years ago, right before things got so bad that I couldn't bring myself to do my work anymore and finally admitted I needed help.
I wouldn't normally whip any of that out in conversation -- amateur psychiatry is fun!! -- but you have said that you are getting therapy, so you are clearly aware that you have something going on in your head. So please at least consider that your current analysis may not be an accurate portrayal of your actual choices and the likely consequences of each. At a minimum talk to your therapist about it, ok?
My job is fairly secure, my bigger worry is that if I lost it or got in a bad accident or something I'd have ~2 months to avoid default, so my risk tolerance towards that possibility is extremely low. As far as looking for something new goes, I feel that until I have a full two years' professional experience at least I'm going to have a very hard time finding something not at entry level, and honestly this gig was a hell of a catch in terms of finding something comparatively not-boring.
IF I postponed grad school, I'd feel obligated to max my tax-advantaged accounts and bulk up my emergency cushion. Maybe I'd be able to find a slightly nicer place, but I don't think I'd gain much because of that. If I chose to spend instead, I think I'd be happier, but the thought of doing so scares me. I could probably pick up a hobby, but the location I'm in is such that I don't think I'd be able to make friends or join a club - there are none around. I've checked. It's a pretty depressing little corner of the world to be in, which is why none of my coworkers live nearby.
I have talked to my therapist about it, but (per herself) she's not especially well-qualified to make judgment calls about my financial situation. I know I'm being too anxious, but I don't know how much too anxious, and it's really hard to tell when I'm currently following the plan I came up with and thought was a great idea when I wasn't depressed. Regardless, the fact that I have two people here of all places telling me that maybe I wanna spend more is definitely making me think about it more seriously. The idea of letting go of the grad school dream just... hurts. I don't have any mid-term goals other than being debt-free and going, and pushing both of those to back to medium-long-term where I felt they were a year and a half ago would be hard for me. And I don't really have any short-term goals at all. Maybe TMI, but my girlfriend of nearly 3 years left me in August, and that's left a big hole in my life that I've been using those goals to fill, insofar as that's been possible. I recognize that that's not necessarily the best idea, but it seems at least better than wallowing, which is the only other real option that doesn't require me to upend my life. Maybe upending my life is the right choice, but the idea of doing so scares me.It's incredibly difficult to make responsible life decisions when you are miserable and mentally unwell.
Ain't that the truth. I'm still mostly convinced that the "responsible" thing is to keep my nose on this grindstone as long as I can bear it, but like I said, you guys are doing a good job of shaking my conviction.
FTR, I'm definitely NOT one of the people suggesting you spend more. I'm the person suggesting you change whatever you need to change to be less miserable.
Only once you are less miserable will you be able to responsibly make such a massive decision as to whether or not you want to go back to grad school.
I say this, like Laura, as someone who has gone through a spectacular level of hell this past year, and the most rational path my brain can think of is to, yeah, go back to fucking school.
Seriously, I became convinced several months back that the key to my happiness was doing ANOTHER graduate degree!!!
Now, I still might do it, but thanks to my wisdom about burnout and suffering, I now know to focus on removing the factors that are negatively affecting me before making major lifestyle decisions and to not get sucked into panacea-type solutions that seem like an oasis in the desert.
Very very few things in life will *make you happy*, but A LOT of things can make you fucking miserable. Step 1 is always purging the misery-making things. Figuring out the happy-making is far more nuanced and requires approaching it from a solid foundation of mental health.
Basically, you can't positive your way out of a negative.
FTR, I'm definitely NOT one of the people suggesting you spend more. I'm the person suggesting you change whatever you need to change to be less miserable.
Only once you are less miserable will you be able to responsibly make such a massive decision as to whether or not you want to go back to grad school.
I say this, like Laura, as someone who has gone through a spectacular level of hell this past year, and the most rational path my brain can think of is to, yeah, go back to fucking school.
Seriously, I became convinced several months back that the key to my happiness was doing ANOTHER graduate degree!!!
Now, I still might do it, but thanks to my wisdom about burnout and suffering, I now know to focus on removing the factors that are negatively affecting me before making major lifestyle decisions and to not get sucked into panacea-type solutions that seem like an oasis in the desert.
Very very few things in life will *make you happy*, but A LOT of things can make you fucking miserable. Step 1 is always purging the misery-making things. Figuring out the happy-making is far more nuanced and requires approaching it from a solid foundation of mental health.
Basically, you can't positive your way out of a negative.
It sounds like you're suggesting I defer my decision until I've paid off my loans, which due to deadlines requires me to defer admission for a year. I don't think I have the mental fortitude to continue paying at this rate without something to look forward to.
My job is fairly secure, my bigger worry is that if I lost it or got in a bad accident or something I'd have ~2 months to avoid default, so my risk tolerance towards that possibility is extremely low. As far as looking for something new goes, I feel that until I have a full two years' professional experience at least I'm going to have a very hard time finding something not at entry level, and honestly this gig was a hell of a catch in terms of finding something comparatively not-boring.
IF I postponed grad school, I'd feel obligated to max my tax-advantaged accounts and bulk up my emergency cushion. Maybe I'd be able to find a slightly nicer place, but I don't think I'd gain much because of that. If I chose to spend instead, I think I'd be happier, but the thought of doing so scares me. I could probably pick up a hobby, but the location I'm in is such that I don't think I'd be able to make friends or join a club - there are none around. I've checked. It's a pretty depressing little corner of the world to be in, which is why none of my coworkers live nearby.
I have talked to my therapist about it, but (per herself) she's not especially well-qualified to make judgment calls about my financial situation. I know I'm being too anxious, but I don't know how much too anxious, and it's really hard to tell when I'm currently following the plan I came up with and thought was a great idea when I wasn't depressed. Regardless, the fact that I have two people here of all places telling me that maybe I wanna spend more is definitely making me think about it more seriously. The idea of letting go of the grad school dream just... hurts. I don't have any mid-term goals other than being debt-free and going, and pushing both of those to back to medium-long-term where I felt they were a year and a half ago would be hard for me. And I don't really have any short-term goals at all. Maybe TMI, but my girlfriend of nearly 3 years left me in August, and that's left a big hole in my life that I've been using those goals to fill, insofar as that's been possible. I recognize that that's not necessarily the best idea, but it seems at least better than wallowing, which is the only other real option that doesn't require me to upend my life. Maybe upending my life is the right choice, but the idea of doing so scares me.
My job is fairly secure, my bigger worry is that if I lost it or got in a bad accident or something I'd have ~2 months to avoid default, so my risk tolerance towards that possibility is extremely low. As far as looking for something new goes, I feel that until I have a full two years' professional experience at least I'm going to have a very hard time finding something not at entry level, and honestly this gig was a hell of a catch in terms of finding something comparatively not-boring.
IF I postponed grad school, I'd feel obligated to max my tax-advantaged accounts and bulk up my emergency cushion. Maybe I'd be able to find a slightly nicer place, but I don't think I'd gain much because of that. If I chose to spend instead, I think I'd be happier, but the thought of doing so scares me. I could probably pick up a hobby, but the location I'm in is such that I don't think I'd be able to make friends or join a club - there are none around. I've checked. It's a pretty depressing little corner of the world to be in, which is why none of my coworkers live nearby.
I have talked to my therapist about it, but (per herself) she's not especially well-qualified to make judgment calls about my financial situation. I know I'm being too anxious, but I don't know how much too anxious, and it's really hard to tell when I'm currently following the plan I came up with and thought was a great idea when I wasn't depressed. Regardless, the fact that I have two people here of all places telling me that maybe I wanna spend more is definitely making me think about it more seriously. The idea of letting go of the grad school dream just... hurts. I don't have any mid-term goals other than being debt-free and going, and pushing both of those to back to medium-long-term where I felt they were a year and a half ago would be hard for me. And I don't really have any short-term goals at all. Maybe TMI, but my girlfriend of nearly 3 years left me in August, and that's left a big hole in my life that I've been using those goals to fill, insofar as that's been possible. I recognize that that's not necessarily the best idea, but it seems at least better than wallowing, which is the only other real option that doesn't require me to upend my life. Maybe upending my life is the right choice, but the idea of doing so scares me.
Oh, man. Honestly, I hurt for you just reading this. Your fear and anxiety and hopeless just permeate every word. Please go to your therapist, now. She doesn't have to be an expert in your finances; she simply needs to be able to identify when you are being driven by anxiety/depression rather than logic. This hits kinda close to home: when I was pretty early on, my therapist ordered me to go buy myself some clothes. Not because I needed clothes; but because my knee-jerk response to the suggestion was "I can't." Because part of my depression was hyper-focusing on the finances, because it was something I could control, and everything else seemed so completely out of control and scary. I did not want to spend a penny more than absolutely necessary, because that was my insurance against the world falling down around me -- it was my excuse to stay in my recliner and avoid everything.
I'm not going to tell you to spend money -- that was just a suggestion of one way to make life better if you decided to stay for another year. What I am going to suggest is that you start from the start from the assumption that the status quo is not working, and something needs to change. You may have had a great plan in theory when you started. But if it doesn't fit you right now, then it's not a good plan for the real you, in the real world that you're living in, and so you need to change it to something that fits better.
In a perfect world, you'd have your loans paid off in full by now and be free to go to grad school. But you don't. So what's the next-best alternative? Is it to take a chance on grad school now, to escape boring work and what sounds like a horrible place to live, even though it means extending the loan payoff a bit? Is it to stick with the job another year to get the loans paid off, but to find other changes you can make in your life to drag you out of your own head and back into life -- even if that means spending a little money on hobbies or moving and extending the loan payoff a few more months? Is it to look for a new job on the theory of "what the hell, I may not succeed, but I'll never know unless I give it a shot"? Seriously, put everything on the table -- except continuing what you're currently doing. Who cares if it upends your life, when the life you are currently living is making you miserable? I mean, if you're living in a hellhole with nothing to do and no friends and no clubs and no hobbies, why the hell are you even still there?
Also note that if you're worried about not being able to work, you can get disability insurance to protect against that. This worry, like many of the worries you have voiced, is irrational -- not because it could never happen, but because the degree to which you are letting that worry control your life is entirely disproportionate to the actual risks involved.
No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
And the fact that you interpreted it that way is...concerning.
This hits kinda close to home: when I was pretty early on, my therapist ordered me to go buy myself some clothes. Not because I needed clothes; but because my knee-jerk response to the suggestion was "I can't." Because part of my depression was hyper-focusing on the finances, because it was something I could control, and everything else seemed so completely out of control and scary. I did not want to spend a penny more than absolutely necessary, because that was my insurance against the world falling down around me -- it was my excuse to stay in my recliner and avoid everything.
In a perfect world, you'd have your loans paid off in full by now and be free to go to grad school. But you don't. So what's the next-best alternative? Is it to take a chance on grad school now, to escape boring work and what sounds like a horrible place to live, even though it means extending the loan payoff a bit? Is it to stick with the job another year to get the loans paid off, but to find other changes you can make in your life to drag you out of your own head and back into life -- even if that means spending a little money on hobbies or moving and extending the loan payoff a few more months? Is it to look for a new job on the theory of "what the hell, I may not succeed, but I'll never know unless I give it a shot"? Seriously, put everything on the table -- except continuing what you're currently doing. Who cares if it upends your life, when the life you are currently living is making you miserable? I mean, if you're living in a hellhole with nothing to do and no friends and no clubs and no hobbies, why the hell are you even still there?
You don’t space it out all nice and casual with “monthly payments”, and you don’t have a "budget", "entertainment allowance", or any other such nonsense. You don’t start a family or get yourself a dog, and you don’t go out for drinks and dinner with your friends.
QuoteYou don’t space it out all nice and casual with “monthly payments”, and you don’t have a "budget", "entertainment allowance", or any other such nonsense. You don’t start a family or get yourself a dog, and you don’t go out for drinks and dinner with your friends.
I don't really know what a reasonable alternative to what I'm currently doing looks like. How much more can I allow myself? I feel like as long as I'm able to stay alive and in shape to work, the answer should really be "nothing." Even trying to distance myself and treat it like a friend is asking for advice doesn't really help; my inclination would be to say, "do with as little as you can stand." And I know I can stand this for another half a year. It's just hard.
QuoteYou don’t space it out all nice and casual with “monthly payments”, and you don’t have a "budget", "entertainment allowance", or any other such nonsense. You don’t start a family or get yourself a dog, and you don’t go out for drinks and dinner with your friends.
I don't really know what a reasonable alternative to what I'm currently doing looks like. How much more can I allow myself? I feel like as long as I'm able to stay alive and in shape to work, the answer should really be "nothing." Even trying to distance myself and treat it like a friend is asking for advice doesn't really help; my inclination would be to say, "do with as little as you can stand." And I know I can stand this for another half a year. It's just hard.
FWIW, I think there is some danger in saying "it's bad but I can stand it for another half year." I struggle with the same question myself. How much am I allowed to spend in myself beyond the bare minimum needed for survival?
I'm not in debt, and actually have a lot saved up. But bad things could happen, I might need money, and won't I feel bad about having spent money on non-necessities now if I end up out of money later?
TL;DR It's a hard question, but it is one you need to figure out an answer to, because it won't go away on its own in another half year when your loans are gone.
Part of the mental health pressures of grad school is that there's this cloud hanging over you that you have to get something (anything!!) to work, or else you'll be out on the street without a degree or a job. If there's anyway to avoid that thinking, I imagine you'll have a better outlook than 90% of your classmates. (Based on what you've written though, I'm not sure you will be able to? Definitely something to think about).
I noticed the mental health stuff as well. You sounds like you're stewing in your own juices, unhappy and focused on making a change to rectify this, which you've identified as going to graduate school.
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It's not a life for someone who struggles to maintain equanimity or a level disposition.
But maybe that's not an issue for you. Maybe, as you seem to indicate, the issue is reducing risk of defaulting on your loans if you lose your job. This is a risk almost every person with college debt faces, and most people just default when a paycheck stops coming. But look at your solution: you want to go back to school and make less money.
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When I was struggling with job unhappiness, I would watch the numbers trickle down my spreadsheets and fantasize about all the things I would do when I was free. I wanted to drive an old car down to Patagonia. I wanted to play golf all day and finally shoot par. I wanted to volunteer to bottle-feed tiny wolf orphans, and a bunch of other awesome-sounding things. I even thought about getting a second degree for fun. When I actually became financially independent, many (but not all) of these ideas drifted away. They turned out to be pleasant fantasies to occupy the mind while I did the hard work of achieving something for yourself. I can't say for sure your idea of going to grad school is one such idea, but it certainly fits some of the criteria, given the small amount we know of you.
This may seem counter-intuitive, but have you considered not paying off your loans as much as possible each month? One of the things I'm hearing in your posts is you feel close to the edge financially. It might be an easier road to create a savings account that is earmarked for loan payment and put everything above the minimum in there that you would currently be prepaying, but then hold on to it until you can pay off a loan in full. This will cost a little bit of interest (though not that much honestly), but buys you runway.
Part of the mental health pressures of grad school is that there's this cloud hanging over you that you have to get something (anything!!) to work, or else you'll be out on the street without a degree or a job. If there's anyway to avoid that thinking, I imagine you'll have a better outlook than 90% of your classmates. (Based on what you've written though, I'm not sure you will be able to? Definitely something to think about).
I'm also kind of interested in the reason multiple people seem to be making this inference. Dealing with frustration and open-ended problems has never really been a problem for me (there are a few stories from undergrad and work that are relevant here), and that kind of problem is actually something I enjoy. Because of that, I think I maintain a sense of perspective pretty well; at work I'm often the one encouraging some of the other junior engineers to step back and realize that our customers' hysterics aren't actually the most serious things on the planet. And with the experience I (will) have I feel extremely confident that I could go back into professional practice if grad school doesn't work out.
The reason the stakes feel so high right now is that I've seen how difficult it can be for other people at my age with my level of experience to get themselves situated. My minimum legal obligation on loan repayment is over $1,000 per month and my savings are practically nil. Without the loans I wouldn't be nearly so worried - at the very worst I'd be able to stay with my parents while searching, and I know that I can keep my monthly consumption expenses (including rent) south of $1,300 with relative ease. But I feel like I'm actually in pretty real danger of defaulting if something does go wrong. While that isn't the literal worst thing that could happen, it would undo so much of the hard work I've put in over the last two years. Repaying this debt hasn't taught me anything. It hasn't given me any experiences that I've valued. It's made me unhappy and stressed and led me to sabotage my relationships. I just want it to be over and I am terrified of it going on any longer. I really and truly believe that once I'm done I'll be able to maintain a reasonable quality of life without ever putting myself in a position to feel this way again.
So the big questions here are what your post-graduate income would be, how you'd pay any on them while in school / cover your expenses, which are both difficult, versus today. It would also help to know your loan interest rates - because I assume you'll go into deferment while you're back in school.
Present rates are in the OP. I will probably refinance the federal loans shortly before leaving my job; I expect to be able to get < 3% on the balance (projected to be ~15k), which I will continue paying in grad school, as a typical stipend is actually above my present monthly spending and I expect to be able to decrease my rent by at least 20%. The nice thing about ME programs is that PhD positions are essentially universally compensated unless you're a very marginal admit, and I am definitely not very marginal.
Don't you think that virtually every other person who has done a PhD thought the same way?
Virtually no one takes on a PhD lightly. It's almost all people with the right personality, with a love of open ended problems who don't think that that kind of thing will get to them.
As I mentioned earlier, I felt the EXACT SAME WAY, I thought that I had a particularly resilient type of personality that would thrive in my program, I also knew that I had unique experience and skills that would give me huge advantages.
It WAS easier for me, I struggled less, suffered less abuse, spent less time studying, spent less time in labs, got to take on some extra challenges, which helped me A LOT professionally. I then pulled off some crazy shit when I started working that got included in a presentation to future graduating classes on "next steps". There's a slide about me that basically says "unless you're Malkynn, don't try this"
So yeah, I was 100% right. I was practically custom built for that program and professionally, I've had the exact same advantages.
It was still hell.
I was right, but I arrogantly ignored the constant warnings from people who knew a lot better than I did just how brutal it would be. I brushed it off with the same "yeah yeah, I'm actually okay with that" as you are, and I'm telling you right now that I DEEPLY regret it.
The program was less brutal for me, but it was still brutal. The career has absolutely been easier for me, but it's still a crushing career that's horrible for mental and physical health and I feel like a MORON for ignoring the obvious risks.
It's not that I wish I had done something different, it's really hard for me to say. However, I really REALLY wish that I had looked more objectively at the reality of what I was inviting into my life. I did not make an informed decision. I looked at my particular suitability to this career and mistook it for *negating* the negatives, when then simply isn't reality.
I strongly, STRONGLY suggest you read some of the journals of the people who have contributed to this thread. A lot of them are brilliant and extremely suited to their research work, and YET, they have gone through a lot of hell along the way.
Don't assume that those of us warning you just weren't suited for our challenges, some of us are actually exceptionally successful examples of our professions who have had it easier than most...and we're still warning you.
As for the debt, I completely relate. It's a crushing reality to live in.
However, as difficult as it is, you need to separate out the misery of the current debt/job situation from the major decision about your future. There are too many confounding feelings mixed in.
Can you possibly refinance your loan to a lower monthly payment amount? Could you borrow a few thousand from your parents to have as an emergency fund just so that you never have to worry about defaulting? I know personal lines of credit aren't as common there as they are here, but is that an option?
I really REALLY empathize with you on the debt situation, just don't let it drive major life decisions.
Are your fed loans subsidized?
If so - They would stop accruing interest when you go to grad school, so from an inflationary perspective, you would be gaining ground on those over time while they sit there.
Get out of your current living situation. How much would it extend out your debt repayment clock if you moved into an apartment, with a kitchen, in a building with good soundproofing?
You could factor the cost of breaking the lease early in order to move into the cost of getting out of that situation.
I lived in some really crappy places when I was out in CA and it definitely worsened my enjoyment of life and outlook on life.
You've got at least four problems right now, two of which can be solved with clever applications of money.
-Bored at work. <-- money won't help here.
-Worried about defaulting if you lost your job. <-- spending a little extra on interest can help a lot here by redirecting surplus loan repayment spending into a savings account until you can crush the loans in one fell swoop.
-Isolated and lonely. <-- Money probably won't help here, but the less unhappy you otherwise are, the easier it is to make new social connections, whether in grad school or the "real world."
-Being dragged into experiencing interpersonal conflict whenever you go home to what should be your space to relax and recharge <-- money absolutely can solve this one.
Did you and your ex live together before you broke up and then you moved into this place? Or were you already living in the place with the screaming landlady and family?
Could you just do some longer-term Air Bnbs strung together? I was browsing recently and surprised to see how much availability there is, and for pretty reasonable prices. But that's in Seattle in the winter. I assume the longer term options dry up here along with the rainy season.
Your current living situation sounds absolutely miserable and unhealthy. It sounds like you really really want to go to grad school, and I don't have any problem with that regardless of your debt level (which you also have thought through -- good job!). But do be aware of your tendency to buckle down and grit it through in what might be very unhealthy situations. It can be admirable, but it also can do a lot of long-term damage.
Okay, that makes more sense. I was assuming you'd found a place with super low rent because the layout meant were basically embedded in the life of the landlord family and the family was disfunctional. Instead you actually had a decent place the live, and then the environment changed around you.
In a hot rental market (like the one it sounds like you are in) you can often negotiate with your landlord (once you are ready to leave) to pay much less than the maximum you might owe if they can get the apartment re-rented quickly. Often they'll even be able to charge the new tenant a higher rent than they'd get to charge you if you served out your entire rent.
If you're looking back at undergrad as the last time you were happy, and you want to go to grad school to try and recreate those dynamics, don't. It won't happen.
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The people who formerly nurtured you as an undergrad - i.e. your professors - are now going to turn around and exploit you. You will have no ability to push back because your paycheck is a line in their budget, and they decide when/if you get your degree.
And in the back of your mind will be the reality that this degree you're working so hard for and getting jerked around over is unlikely to ever pay back the opportunity cost you incur getting it. Which is in the best case scenario that you finish.
I just want to make sure I'm not actively fucking myself by going.
If you go to grad school with a stipend of >$25k and decent health insurance guaranteed for the duration of your program, you'll likely come out fine financially.
However, you appear hung up about what's really a piddling amount of student debt. Your current debt isn't a big deal.
The opportunity cost of going to grad school is a much bigger financial deal. If your current salary is $77k and your grad school stipend is $27k, your opportunity cost is at least $50k/year. If you finish grad school in five years financially treading water the whole time, you'll have incurred a $250k opportunity cost for the degree. If this is a financial question, I'd strongly advise that you spend more time considering the $250k opportunity cost than the $40k you have in existing student loans.
From a purely financial standpoint, the opportunity cost of 2 years to get a masters will likely be outweighed by both the potential to earn more due to the jobs available to you with that degree AND your likelihood to earn more $ on account of actually liking the job you do (so you'll do better, work more, etc.).
The opportunity cost of 5-6+ years at this stage of your earnings life is obviously, far more financially devastating. You won't be able to save money at the most critical time in your earnings life for compounding - true of the masters as well, of course (but with a much shorter time frame!).
And at the end of the PhD tunnel is NOT necessarily the opportunity to earn any more income than if you just get a masters. Pursuing the PhD would be a serious financial mis-step. You would be sacrificing key earning years for something with no or a very nebulous financial benefit, especially if you don't need it for work in R&D you would like.
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I'm seeing now that most of your payment currently is to the private student loan, but maybe as you finish paying off the private loan, this will comfort you about federal loan payments so you don't feel like the forbearance cliff is right ahead of you.
You make 77k/year and owe under 40k at age 24 with almost 10k in the bank. You owed 87.5k two years ago. You've dug yourself out pretty far already. You'll be free of private student loans in 5 months!
If I were you, I would...
-Put the money in my HSA necessary to keep up the therapy cost. This is a health need.
-Continue the grad school applications
-Reassess the payoff strategy after the private loans are gone
-Build in some milestone treats. This does not have to be anything big. But maybe when you get below 30k total debt, you buy yourself a steak or get your favorite six pack or buy that new pair of shoes you've been denying yourself for months. Even if it's just a milkshake or a new movie download or a bag of your favorite coffee beans, recognizing your progress will help develop a growth mindset.
My living situation continues to be bad, but my mental health has seen an enormous improvement, despite working from home in the environment I previously described. On the plus side, I haven't been laid off and I think I'm unlikely to be in the next few months. I was accepted everywhere I applied, and while I still have a couple weeks to formally decide, I'm probably turning down MIT for a position at another R1 university with an advisor who seems better at mentoring and is doing more interesting work. Being in a place where I'm going to be able to afford to live alone on a grad student stipend (and still save!) is going to help too, I think.