Author Topic: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?  (Read 3455 times)

UponStars

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Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« on: February 04, 2021, 08:21:10 PM »
My wife has worked hard for years and the current stress level at her job coupled with a desire to spend extra time with our kids before they "age out" has her seriously contemplating early retirement.  I plan to work for another 18 years until I can begin collecting my pension (~$1,900/month). The question is can she retire while I continue to work and still be ensured that we have a solid cushion in retirement?

I carry a family health insurance plan that will not change if she is added to the plan.  In case of my early demise I have a 250k term ins policy for another 9 years and a company policy for 130k.  Would my wife be able to continue staying at home or would she be forced to go back to work?

Life Situation: Me 40, her 38, MFJ, two kids around 10, United States, LCOL.

Gross Salary/Wages: Me - 67k; her - 106k

Individual amounts of each Pre-tax deductions:
Me 401k - 19.5k
       HSA - 7k
       Ins - 2k
Her 401k - 19.5k
       Ins - 3k

Other Ordinary Income: N/A

Qualified Dividends & Long Term Capital Gains: N/A

Rental Income, Actual Expenses, and Depreciation: N/A

Adjusted Gross Income: 122k

Take Home: 94k

Current expenses: 3500/month

     Property Tax/Ins  337
     HOA   18
     Home Repair   400
     Elec/Gas/Water/Sewer   285
     Groceries   800
     Phones   70
     Internet   60
     Gas   100
     Restaurants   50
     Car Maintenance   100
     Car Ins/Plates   94
     Clothing   300
     Life Ins   41
     Professional Fees 25
     Dog   60
     Christmas   75
     Vacation/Travel   200
     Gifts   12
     Adult Activities   50
     Kid Activities 400
     Umbrella Ins   22
     


Expected ER expenses: Same

Assets: 401ks - 650k
            Roth IRAs - 157k
            Taxable Brokerage - 1,133k
            HSAs - 46k
            Cash - 92k
            House - 300k
            529's - 350k
            Vehicle 1 - 2016 w/ 58k miles
            Vehicle 2 - 2008 w/ 180k miles
            Camper - 2018 A-Frame Pop-up

Liabilities: N/A

Specific Question(s): Just want to know your thoughts on going down to a single income, mine at 67k currently.  We would like to keep expenses consistent moving forward, so we're not planning to change anything other than my wife's work status.

Our thoughts are to stop retirement contributions other than maxing the HSA and putting enough in my 401k to earn the company match, only $1700.

Notes: We realize some of these categories are very high.  These are based on several years of spending and generally estimated high along with thoughts of future expenses.  We will need to replace our roof soon.  We have never spent $300/month on clothes, as we have had plenty of clothes donated through neighbors/friends but that is rapidly ending as our boys get older and they will need new wardrobes in the years to come.  Our kids are competitive swimmers, thus the high kid activity expense.  We aren't really looking for ways to cut expenses, just interested in cutting income at the moment and want to know the collective opinion on the feasibility without an effect on our financial security. 

Thanks in advance for your input!

« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 12:19:59 PM by UponStars »

minority_finance_mo

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2021, 09:40:55 PM »
Am I reading this right? You've got $42,000 in post-tax expenses and over $2m in market-invested assets? (Not to mention a paid-off home, and enough saved to send kids to university.)

Way to go. Sounds like you're both FIRE already and then some - why not both quit?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2021, 07:41:58 AM »
@UponStars - Um, I'm not quite sure why either of you is still working.  You've got 50x current expenses saved. Congrats, you've won the game!  Go take your trophy and ride off into the sunset.

(as an aside, I'm guessing the "1900k/month" pension is a typo, and should be $1,900/mo.  Right?)

Now, if your Taxable Brokerage account is also a typo, and it's really $113k, or $133k....well then, you have "only" about 25x expenses saved up, and you can still retire now.  That also means that yes, you'll be fine if you want to work and DW would like to RE.

UponStars

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2021, 12:38:40 PM »
@UponStars - Um, I'm not quite sure why either of you is still working.  You've got 50x current expenses saved. Congrats, you've won the game!  Go take your trophy and ride off into the sunset.

(as an aside, I'm guessing the "1900k/month" pension is a typo, and should be $1,900/mo.  Right?)

Now, if your Taxable Brokerage account is also a typo, and it's really $113k, or $133k....well then, you have "only" about 25x expenses saved up, and you can still retire now.  That also means that yes, you'll be fine if you want to work and DW would like to RE.

Thanks for your response, and you are correct in some regards.  I edited it to show $1900/month instead of nearly $2mil/month, that would be an easy decision then.  The brokerage amount is correct, it's a over a million at the moment. 

As a lighthearted response but serious as well, I would disagree that we won the "game".  This is our future life together and is a very serious decision, if indeed it was a game, we'd feel much more confident.  I feel confident that she could step away from her career, but we are concerned about future healthcare costs if I did not have employer sponsored coverage.  We are also weary of upcoming costs associated with kids and homeownership such as braces, a new roof, replacement windows, and future market fluctuations. 

There is also the uncertainty of knowing absolutely no one outside of this virtual community who has actually done this and retired early.  There are several single wage earners we know, who appear to, or at least we assume, have a much higher income than mine.  We know of one couple who has retired in their mid-late 50's but no one else who have both retired below 60.  Is it truly feasible?   

tamuaggie2011

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2021, 01:57:21 PM »
Quote
Thanks for your response, and you are correct in some regards.  I edited it to show $1900/month instead of nearly $2mil/month, that would be an easy decision then.  The brokerage amount is correct, it's a over a million at the moment.

As a lighthearted response but serious as well, I would disagree that we won the "game".  This is our future life together and is a very serious decision, if indeed it was a game, we'd feel much more confident.  I feel confident that she could step away from her career, but we are concerned about future healthcare costs if I did not have employer sponsored coverage.  We are also weary of upcoming costs associated with kids and homeownership such as braces, a new roof, replacement windows, and future market fluctuations.

I think the previous poster was rushing to make you feel good and ignoring the sentiment (unintentionally). I want to first acknowledge that going down to a single income is a dramatic shift even when you have an agreed upon goal and the money to do it.

Speaking from the financial side I want to address it from two sides because I think the worry is on two fronts: The if you die tomorrow will your wife be okay and also sounds as though too if you are alive will you both still be okay if she never works.

The answer to the latter is most certainly as your yearly take home income (approximate 50k after subtracting out the HSA insurance and taxes) is still more than your listed 42k annual expenses. Even if these expenses go up as you suggest you have about 10k of wiggle room to your break even point (assuming no raises which of course would give you even more cushion)

To the former question about what happens if she retires and you pass away the week after (essentially you and DW's worst scenario). Well you all have a paid for house, no debt, college for your kids funded and she has 1.1MM with which to fund your family until she turns 59.5 and can penalty free access the retirement accounts. This doesn't include your life insurance so really she would have close to $1.5MM. Your wife would have 21 years to make that money last and then she still has the retirement money.

To give you an idea of how likely that scenario is I plugged in those numbers to this calculator (1.5mm. 3500 monthly withdrawal, 2% yearly increase for inflation, and 8% avg annual return) and as you will see the vast majority of the time the balance in the account will actually be higher than what you started with. https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/how-long-will-my-money-last?skn=#results

So while the previous responses were somewhat snarky, I believe that was the intent was to show you that given the numbers you have provided, you and DW have in fact done such an amazing job that you both should be "set for life" to follow the path you both want while resting easy that if God Forbid the worst case scenario happened to either of you the other will be still be perfectly okay. Congratulations on accomplishing such a feat it really is an awesome thing.

My wife and I are about 10 years younger than you all and that situation is pretty much our goal so you have definitely served as an inspiration.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2021, 02:13:27 PM »
@UponStars - Um, I'm not quite sure why either of you is still working.  You've got 50x current expenses saved. Congrats, you've won the game!  Go take your trophy and ride off into the sunset.

(as an aside, I'm guessing the "1900k/month" pension is a typo, and should be $1,900/mo.  Right?)

Now, if your Taxable Brokerage account is also a typo, and it's really $113k, or $133k....well then, you have "only" about 25x expenses saved up, and you can still retire now.  That also means that yes, you'll be fine if you want to work and DW would like to RE.

Thanks for your response, and you are correct in some regards.  I edited it to show $1900/month instead of nearly $2mil/month, that would be an easy decision then.  The brokerage amount is correct, it's a over a million at the moment. 

As a lighthearted response but serious as well, I would disagree that we won the "game".  This is our future life together and is a very serious decision, if indeed it was a game, we'd feel much more confident.  I feel confident that she could step away from her career, but we are concerned about future healthcare costs if I did not have employer sponsored coverage.  We are also weary of upcoming costs associated with kids and homeownership such as braces, a new roof, replacement windows, and future market fluctuations. 

There is also the uncertainty of knowing absolutely no one outside of this virtual community who has actually done this and retired early.  There are several single wage earners we know, who appear to, or at least we assume, have a much higher income than mine.  We know of one couple who has retired in their mid-late 50's but no one else who have both retired below 60.  Is it truly feasible?   
The "game" I refer to is the "playing by the rules and working a job like a good little employee until you have enough to retire" game.  Not only have you beaten the final boss, you've pummeled him into the ground.

The term "game" is meant ironically, since getting to this point can be anything but fun.  You're absolutely right that it's a serious decision.  You've mentioned a number of concerns that would affect whether you have enough (new roof, braces, paying for your own health insurance, etc).  It's good that you're identifying those potential expenditures now, because you can put a price tag on them and adjust your expected retirement budget to account for them.

What I think you need to do is sit down and build a spreadsheet, detailing your expected expenses in retirement, both normal budget items (utilities, food, clothing, mortgage if applicable, health insurance, etc) and infrequent things like car insurance, braces, new roof, vacations, and weddings.  You can then divide those infrequent expenses by the number of months before you expect to pay them, total them up, and create a new budget category for them.  The term for this is a Sinking Fund.

For example, you might expect to pay $5k for braces for each kid in 4 years.  $10k in 48 months is about $200/mo.  A new $10k roof in 10 years is roughly $80/mo.  Vacation next year for $1200 is another $100/mo.  Now, add a category to your expected retirement budget, and give it $380/mo.  Et voila, you've accounted for those big expenses.

In our family, we set up a monthly transfer from our checking account to our savings account (which counts as both emergency fund and sinking fund).  Each month, the $Xxx of sinking fund budget is automatically transferred. And when we need to draw off it, we pull that money back out of savings.

All that said, you have $2 million, which give you $80k per year worry-free.  In other words, not only do you have enough to cover all your normal expenses plus health insurance, you have enough that you could pay for your kids' braces AND a new roof every single year for the next thirty years without worrying about running out of money.  And that's just with your current assets, without your pension or social security or any of that.

On the social side, you're right that your situation is a rarity, and few of the folks around you are in a similar position.  You and your wife have done an exceptional job of spending modestly, earning lots of money, and saving it.  I use the term "exceptional" very literally.  You are an exception.  Most people will either A) have lower income or higher spending, so they can't retire until social security kicks in, or B) will keep working even after SS, because they haven't saved enough on their own, or C) are workaholics, enjoy work too much to retire, don't know that they can retire early, or are chasing the next golden carrot.  Very few people can save up 25x expenses fast enough to retire when they've just hit middle age, AND then decide to retire.

There's a great Post-FIRE subforum for discussing that kind of issue.

ericrugiero

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2021, 03:04:29 PM »
I'm just going to echo previous posters.  You are in great shape.  $2,000,000 investible assets plus a paid for home, plus college paid for, plus a pension, plus SS. 

If you want to keep working while your wife retires, you make enough to provide for the family and your investments will probably double a couple times in the 19 years till you retire even with no more contributions.  Your biggest financial problem will be high taxes on a huge income when RMD's kick in. 

If you want to both retire, you are in great shape.  Spending levels are well below the 4% rule which means you have lots of margin. 

You mention several concerns such as braces, roof, etc.  You have PLENTY of money to pay for those.  Even if you spent $800K on those items you are still spending less than the 4% rule and not taking into account pension or SS.  Don't worry about an $8,000 cost when you have $800,000 extra dollars. 

Your job now is to decide what you want.

Watchmaker

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2021, 12:59:08 PM »
Like others have said, your situation is pretty straight-forward: your wife is fine to retire right now, and even if you died tomorrow, she'd be in a very low risk situation and would likely (almost certainly) never have to work again.

UponStars

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2021, 07:50:53 AM »
I appreciate the thoughtful responses. Even if my wife continues to work her current job, it has been helpful for her to hear that plenty of others think she has the freedom to do whatever she chooses. The knowledge that she isn't trapped in her current situation is a bit comforting, even if the situation itself doesn't change.   

tamuaggie2011

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2021, 08:25:58 AM »
Quote
I appreciate the thoughtful responses. Even if my wife continues to work her current job, it has been helpful for her to hear that plenty of others think she has the freedom to do whatever she chooses. The knowledge that she isn't trapped in her current situation is a bit comforting, even if the situation itself doesn't change.

I figured I would add this as hopefully it provides further support. Coming from someone else in a married couple situation who has done well for themselves by being responsible and frugal over time. There will somewhat always be a small "devil on your shoulder" that says you aren't secure enough because you see everyone else around you who wasn't as responsible (for one reason or another) and therefore you can't either. That's just not true though, you and DW worked hard to save and also to know what you need to live on AND ALSO be happy.

That knowledge and belief in yourself and each other is in fact enough, and yall did such a great job. Remember to that there will always be ways to make some money, and you may be surprised how much money you could make doing things you like. For example, I'm pulling this out of thin air, but maybe you still really enjoy sports so you decide to ref every once in awhile. You could easily make a few thousand dollars doing something you enjoy in your free time that also provides a "cash cushion".


chagan

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2021, 01:23:54 PM »
OP - your post resonates with me, you are in a really good shape to make this call, although I understand the slight hesitation to acknowledge @zolotiyeruki referring to you having won the "game".

He means in the right sense of the word, you have set yourself up for success in retirement, which is the end game for most of us as from the time we start working. The hesitation you have even with that amount of asset base will keep you on your toes and you will continue to be mindful of spend, where you need to ...

You guys are ready! (even more so if you want to work for 18 more years, I would not know why)

Dicey

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2021, 12:42:24 AM »
Go find a copy of Amy Dacyczyn's "The Complete Tightwad Gazette ". Much of it is laughably outdated now, but there's a great section on what it actually costs to work and how much cheaper it can be when one partner is not working and has the time and energy to optimize the family spending. Get the compilation book, with the light blue cover. You'll probably have to buy it used, but it will be the best money you'll ever spend. Your "Dacyczyn"* will be much easier.

*According to Amy, "Dacyczyn" is pronounced "decision".

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2021, 05:27:09 AM »
@UponStars -- you two have done really, really well.  I know we're all just internet strangers, but I hope your wife seriously considers retirement.  My DH retired when our kids were 9 and 12, and it was the best decision ever.  (I kept working for 3 more years to top up accounts and pay off the house and then I retired too).  You never get that time back with your kids.  And as others have mentioned, expenses typically go down with a stay-at-home spouse.  It's a great lifestyle. 

I won't beat the topic to death, but as others have said you have plenty of money for BOTH of you to retire if you want to.  For a reference point, I retired and joined my DH when we hit $750k invested + $200k 529 plans + paid off house.  Annual spend around $36k.  And keep in mind that your accounts will likely continue to grow after you retire.  Ours have.   

MMMWannaBe

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2021, 09:25:57 AM »
Quote
There will somewhat always be a small "devil on your shoulder" that says you aren't secure enough because you see everyone else around you who wasn't as responsible (for one reason or another) and therefore you can't either. That's just not true though, you and DW worked hard to save and also to know what you need to live on AND ALSO be happy.

Your words resonate with me.  I struggle with a bit of weird guilt mixed with incredibility.  We have made so many financial mistakes.  I do not feel like we were always careful with our spending either.  The only thing we really did was contribute to a 401K at a young age (as my Dad instructed me to do).   I guess it is a feeling of undeservedness and also perhaps a little frustration that all of our friends with similar wages aren't positioned like we are.  I want them to travel with us - so it is a selfish frustration. 

EngineerOurFI

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Re: Reader Case Study - Dual Earners to Single Earner?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 08:46:48 AM »
Quote
There will somewhat always be a small "devil on your shoulder" that says you aren't secure enough because you see everyone else around you who wasn't as responsible (for one reason or another) and therefore you can't either. That's just not true though, you and DW worked hard to save and also to know what you need to live on AND ALSO be happy.

Your words resonate with me.  I struggle with a bit of weird guilt mixed with incredibility.  We have made so many financial mistakes.  I do not feel like we were always careful with our spending either.  The only thing we really did was contribute to a 401K at a young age (as my Dad instructed me to do).   I guess it is a feeling of undeservedness and also perhaps a little frustration that all of our friends with similar wages aren't positioned like we are.  I want them to travel with us - so it is a selfish frustration.

The number of people that contribute absolutely nothing to their 401k until age 30 is astounding and then maybe by age 35 the average person is finally doing matching contributions.  Folks don't even bother thinking about IRAs and HSAs (for the most part) until kids are out of college.  And forget about paying off their house - that never happens.  Who could POSSIBLY pay off their house?  After all, when you move and upgrade your house twice - how could you have paid off your 30 year mortgage that you've been re-rolling?  I'm being a little sarcastic here...but not much.  It's pretty shocking how people tend to not only spend 100% of their income but even adjust lifestyle to spend 100% of bonuses and raises.  Unless people have a real "come to Jesus moment" they just don't change their behaviors and live below their means.  I have a friend who has 4 kids in private school to the tune of $15k per year per kid and now she's struggling with how to pay for college because of course the kids need to go to $60k/year private colleges.  I asked don't they almost have house paid off since they've lived there forever?  Nope.  They did 2 cash out refis over the years so their mortgage payment is as high as ever.  They were saying they *might* be able to retire by 65-68 but continue to joke they'll probably be working for ever.  Pretty sure they make ~2-3x my family's income.  We're talking very upper class income level folks.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 09:03:15 AM by EngineerOurFI »

 

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