35 in VHCOL: How're my newly mustachian efforts going?

[FIREeh?]

Life Situation: Single, 35, no dependents. Newly engaged, so looking ahead to a wedding, perhaps combined finances, and other big life moments! Live and work in VHCOL city with ~6% state + ~3% local income taxes, but appreciate our public transit (no car) and rich cultural offerings.

Newish to Mustachianism. Not sure if I’ll aim for a super-early retirement, but I want the option within my 40s. MMM and this forum’s facepunches have already changed my life, improved my understanding of tax efficiency, and more. I want to keep that up.

Gross Salary/Wages:
Paycheck = 5800 bimonthly (139k/year)
401a = 1700 monthly (20.4k/year) directly contributed into a pre-tax 401a, not deducted from paycheck.

Individual amounts of Pre-tax deductions:
403b = 1625 (19.5k/year). Already updated to new max for 2022.
Transit = 80 (960 /year). Reflects partial work-from-home in recent years.
HSA = not available. Health/dental/vision are fully covered by company.
457b = a non-gov type is available, but I don’t contribute due to poor investment and withdrawal options. See post history.

Adjusted Gross Income:
Paycheck = 9902 (118.8k/year)

Taxes:
Taxes = 3522 (42.2k/year)

Net Salary/Wages:
Take-home = 6381 (76.5k/year)
401a and 403b pre-tax retirement = 3315  (39.8k/year)
Total = 116.3k

Current expenses:
I keep track with Mint and my own excel sheet. The below are all averages from 2021 Jan-Nov.

Rent = 2000       (24k/year)
Utilities = 85       (1020/year)
Internet = 25       (300/year). My half.
Cell = 0                 (0). Reimbursed by company. $28/m Verizon prepaid plan.
Dining = 512            (6144/year). Includes restaurants, delivery, fast food, and ATMs.
Groceries = 193        (2316/year)
Alcohol & Bars = 328        (3936/year)
Shopping = 238             (2856/year)
Gifts = 117             (1406/year)
Coffee shops = 99    (1188/year)
Transportation = 17   (204/year). Will be lower as subway expenses have recently moved pre-tax, but this also covers an occasional Lyft or train ticket
Fun = 74                  (888/year). Movies, show tickets, Spotify, magazines, books
Vacation = 121       (1452/year). Low because I use churn credit card points, but also because of Covid travel limits.

Monthly total = 3809 (45.7k/year). I vary, but try to aim for a 4k average. This excludes a notable, a one-time engagement ring purchase this year. Wedding expenses coming next year.

Assets:
Taxable = 296k. Two-thirds is VTSAX, with a small amount of VSGAX and VGT. The remaining is LTCG in TSLA, PYPL, and 5 others of much smaller amounts. My inclination is to steadily shift this back into index funds but I hesitate to take the tax hit. These have been volatile lately, but without a near-term FIRE date it doesn’t bother me too much yet.
Roth = 93k. Breakdown is 85 VTSAX, 6 VGT, 2 PYPL. Since a traditional IRA would be non-deductible I did a backdoor contribution this month.
401a = 70k. All VFIAX.
403b = 38k. All VFIAX.
Cash = 6k.

All new savings go into VTSAX. No cars, property, etc.

Liabilities: No loans.

Questions:
-   Any spending facepunches?
-   Am I insane for not contributing to my 457b?
-   Should I start a 529 for the tax benefits, or is that too much since I don’t know yet about kids?
-   Thoughts on if/when/how to shed the stocks in my portfolio?
-   I don’t know if I’ll ever buy (vs. rent), and where that will be, how much, or when. The coming wedding and subsequent few years may impact this. How would a future down payment work?

Again, MMM and this forum has been a life-changer for me, and reading the Case Studies has been one of my favorite ways to learn. Thanks to all you wonderful people for taking the time to read and weigh in with your thoughts and experiences!

[LifeHappens]

You asked for facepunches, so here's an easy one:

Dining = 512 (6144/year). Includes restaurants, delivery, fast food, and ATMs.
Groceries = 193 (2316/year)
Alcohol & Bars = 328 (3936/year)
Coffee shops = 99    (1188/year)

That is $13,584 down your gullet, with less than 20% of that on groceries. At 4% SWR, you would need to save $350,000 just to support your eating habits.

No only is this expensive, it seems pretty unhealthy.

[zolotiyeruki]

You asked for facepunches, so here's an easy one:

Dining = 512 (6144/year). Includes restaurants, delivery, fast food, and ATMs.
Groceries = 193 (2316/year)
Alcohol & Bars = 328 (3936/year)
Coffee shops = 99    (1188/year)

That is $13,584 down your gullet, with less than 20% of that on groceries. At 4% SWR, you would need to save $350,000 just to support your eating habits.

No only is this expensive, it seems pretty unhealthy.

Darn it, you beat me to it.

Wow, a non-governmental 457b seems completely pointless if you have to take all of it as a lump sum upon separation, and then pay taxes on it.  I'd push back a bit (get your SPD!) and see if the lump-sum requirement is real. 

If, on the other hand, you can simply let it sit there after you separate, and only withdraw what you want when you want it, then absolutely you should be participating.  At your income level, in a high-tax area, and with nearly $300k (~7 years of spending) in a taxable account, I'd be doing everything to reduce taxable income.  The 0.3% fee is nothing compared to the 24% or 22% federal tax rate and the 9% state/local taxes.

The typical reason to move investments gradually is to avoid moving into a higher tax bracket.  If taking those LTCGs won't affect your marginal tax rate (because they're only a few thousand dollars), there's no reason to go slow.

A 529 only avoids state taxes, (in your case, nothing to sniff at), at the cost of flexibility.  If you and your fiancee haven't discussed kids yet, you've got some serious homework to do.

A downpayment is just that.  You need a chunk of money to pay for a house.  You could do that by drawing your taxable accounts, paying taxes on the gains in the process.  There's not much fancy footwork around that.

[FIREeh?]

Lifehappens - facepunch received! Thank you. It's crazy how "ok" that spending felt even while writing my case study, because the monthly number seems "relatively" small and I'm still happy with my savings rate ~60%. But when you put it the way you do, it's clear I can improve here both for savings and health. I've looked at my breakdown and trends within that category and am going to take some steps, at least shifting toward no or only once-a-month delivery as an easy first step. No delivery was always the rule until a harder job ate into my evenings. 2020 was a hard, isolated year in the city, and it was great in certain periods of 2021 to get back out to restaurants and friends. But I don't want to let that excuse too much lazy behavior.

Zolotiyeruku - thanks for all the good thoughts. I swore I'd stop investigating my 457b after spending a lot of time on it early last year, and finally getting a TIAA rep on the phone who was knowledgeable, or at least confident, about my specific plan. The company hasn't been much help, but I may consider trying my luck again. I was delighted when I found out I had access to this, and so disappointed when I learned of the seemingly dismal withdrawal options.

Thanks too for the input on stocks. I do hope my income goes up over my working years, so perhaps better to get out of some of them ASAP and take the hit rather than wait all the way until RE.

The 529. Ooof, unintentional personal facepunch here! We have discussed kids, just no concrete plans. I think a potential move out of the city looms large for couples like us, which is why a lot of decisions (kids, how much cash needed for a downpayment if we buy and where) feel interconnected, which can sometimes overwhelm decisionmaking.

[FIwithKids]

Marriage is going to be a big change ….what’s the financial and life plan as a couple?

Fiancé - is she a spender or a saver? Does she want to have the RE option in 40s too? (10 years)
You can get some cost leverage with the 2 of you and incomes coming in. 1 rent, shared food bulk buying,…but other expenses are not shareable.

Wedding - these can be $1k or $100k. The latter would take 20% of your net worth.

Kids - if fiancé is the same age as you (35) then your kids choice is now due to biology factors. Female fertility falls quickly at age 35 and off a cliff by 40.
Cost to raise kids is expensive…childcare under age 5 is easily $2k per month, increasing your expenses by 50% in on factor alone…before the other expenses of formula, diapers, clothing, a car for travel (public transit with all the baby stuff to lug around will get taxing quickly), life insurance to protect family, bigger house with bigger expenses…you know where that bar and restaurant money is getting reallocated

And your retirement spending goal - what rate is that? You have $500k now. What does fiancé have?
You want the option to RE in 40s or 10 years - so how much can you and fiancé save in 10 years to then live off for 50 years and raise kids….

Assume fiancé has same $500k = $1,000k total
Next 10 years you save 50% of your $100k salary each and invest with a 7% annual rate of return.
10 years you have $3.4m
3% series is $100k a year which is about what you and wife had been living on

But above is all the good side….reality with kids and new marriage. A parent takes time off for a few years with kids, or kids expenses increase for 30% less savings, or you diversify portfolio investments in some cash and our current bear market enters a bumpy period for a few years (re 2000 or 2008 crash in sectors)
So now that becomes…
Savings per year is $60k (lower Salary, more expenses, …)
Compound rate is 5%
And your money gets to $2.4M
So 3% swr rate is $72k…and you are less than your current expenses…so stuck in a cycle

Go have a good talk with fiancé about life and financial goals and model it out. Ensure you both are on the same page for life…a marriage is about love and trust and commitment for the rest of your lives, money goals is one of the enabling factors here for your foundation.

Congrats and have a drink at the bar from me…I’m 3 kids in and dropped that expense a long time ago….

[clarkfan1979]

Life Situation: Single, 35, no dependents. Newly engaged, so looking ahead to a wedding, perhaps combined finances, and other big life moments! Live and work in VHCOL city with ~6% state + ~3% local income taxes, but appreciate our public transit (no car) and rich cultural offerings.

Newish to Mustachianism. Not sure if I’ll aim for a super-early retirement, but I want the option within my 40s. MMM and this forum’s facepunches have already changed my life, improved my understanding of tax efficiency, and more. I want to keep that up.

Gross Salary/Wages:
Paycheck = 5800 bimonthly (139k/year)
401a = 1700 monthly (20.4k/year) directly contributed into a pre-tax 401a, not deducted from paycheck.

Individual amounts of Pre-tax deductions:
403b = 1625 (19.5k/year). Already updated to new max for 2022.
Transit = 80 (960 /year). Reflects partial work-from-home in recent years.
HSA = not available. Health/dental/vision are fully covered by company.
457b = a non-gov type is available, but I don’t contribute due to poor investment and withdrawal options. See post history.

Adjusted Gross Income:
Paycheck = 9902 (118.8k/year)

Taxes:
Taxes = 3522 (42.2k/year)

Net Salary/Wages:
Take-home = 6381 (76.5k/year)
401a and 403b pre-tax retirement = 3315  (39.8k/year)
Total = 116.3k

Current expenses:
I keep track with Mint and my own excel sheet. The below are all averages from 2021 Jan-Nov.

Rent = 2000       (24k/year)
Utilities = 85       (1020/year)
Internet = 25       (300/year). My half.
Cell = 0                 (0). Reimbursed by company. $28/m Verizon prepaid plan.
Dining = 512            (6144/year). Includes restaurants, delivery, fast food, and ATMs.
Groceries = 193        (2316/year)
Alcohol & Bars = 328        (3936/year)
Shopping = 238             (2856/year)
Gifts = 117             (1406/year)
Coffee shops = 99    (1188/year)
Transportation = 17   (204/year). Will be lower as subway expenses have recently moved pre-tax, but this also covers an occasional Lyft or train ticket
Fun = 74                  (888/year). Movies, show tickets, Spotify, magazines, books
Vacation = 121       (1452/year). Low because I use churn credit card points, but also because of Covid travel limits.

Monthly total = 3809 (45.7k/year). I vary, but try to aim for a 4k average. This excludes a notable, a one-time engagement ring purchase this year. Wedding expenses coming next year.

Assets:
Taxable = 296k. Two-thirds is VTSAX, with a small amount of VSGAX and VGT. The remaining is LTCG in TSLA, PYPL, and 5 others of much smaller amounts. My inclination is to steadily shift this back into index funds but I hesitate to take the tax hit. These have been volatile lately, but without a near-term FIRE date it doesn’t bother me too much yet.
Roth = 93k. Breakdown is 85 VTSAX, 6 VGT, 2 PYPL. Since a traditional IRA would be non-deductible I did a backdoor contribution this month.
401a = 70k. All VFIAX.
403b = 38k. All VFIAX.
Cash = 6k.

All new savings go into VTSAX. No cars, property, etc.

Liabilities: No loans.

Questions:
-   Any spending facepunches?
-   Am I insane for not contributing to my 457b?
-   Should I start a 529 for the tax benefits, or is that too much since I don’t know yet about kids?
-   Thoughts on if/when/how to shed the stocks in my portfolio?
-   I don’t know if I’ll ever buy (vs. rent), and where that will be, how much, or when. The coming wedding and subsequent few years may impact this. How would a future down payment work?

Again, MMM and this forum has been a life-changer for me, and reading the Case Studies has been one of my favorite ways to learn. Thanks to all you wonderful people for taking the time to read and weigh in with your thoughts and experiences!

I think the previous comments are kind of harsh. For NYC standards, I think you are doing a good job with spending and saving. NYC is a completely different animal.

Could you provide some clarification? Is your total savings 39.8K/year (pre-tax) and 30.8K/year post-tax?

Your take home pay is 76.5K and your spending is 45.7K, so that means your post-tax savings is currently around 30.8K/year?

When you are calculating your savings rate, I would calculate it based off of gross, not net. Taxes are an expense and must be calculated.

There is a large opportunity cost for living in a VHCOL area and not buying a primary residence. If you choose not to buy you need to be that much more aggressive about putting money in the stock market.

I think you are off to a good start. Your future wife and yourself need to decide if you will stay in NYC with kids and how that will work.

 

[LifeHappens]

Lifehappens - facepunch received! Thank you. It's crazy how "ok" that spending felt even while  writing my case study, because the monthly number seems "relatively" small and I'm still happy with my savings rate ~60%. But when you put it the way you do, it's clear I can improve here both for savings and health. I've looked at my breakdown and trends within that category and am going to take some steps, at least shifting toward no or only once-a-month delivery as an easy first step. No delivery was always the rule until a harder job ate into my evenings. 2020 was a hard, isolated year in the city, and it was great in certain periods of 2021 to get back out to restaurants and friends. But I don't want to let that excuse too much lazy behavior.

Well done on taking the facepunch in the spirit in which it was given. If you're saving 60%, you can obviously "afford" the expense. What worries me more is the likely sub-optimal health choice. Unless you're getting the healthiest possible delivery meals your diet is probably not setting you up for long term success.

[JGS1980]

You are doing okay. My only quibble is that your Restaurants:Groceries spending ratio should be improved. Maybe 250:350 instead of 500:200.

Do you know and enjoy cooking? Batch cooking a possibility? Is eating one of your primary joys in life?

Also, shows us your budget once you get married. That's where the rubber will meet the road, Have you had FIRE discussions with your fiancé? Are you on the same page?

Best of luck and you are doing great!

JGS

[DaTrill]

Lifehappens - facepunch received! Thank you. It's crazy how "ok" that spending felt even while writing my case study, because the monthly number seems "relatively" small and I'm still happy with my savings rate ~60%. But when you put it the way you do, it's clear I can improve here both for savings and health. I've looked at my breakdown and trends within that category and am going to take some steps, at least shifting toward no or only once-a-month delivery as an easy first step. No delivery was always the rule until a harder job ate into my evenings. 2020 was a hard, isolated year in the city, and it was great in certain periods of 2021 to get back out to restaurants and friends. But I don't want to let that excuse too much lazy behavior.

Zolotiyeruku - thanks for all the good thoughts. I swore I'd stop investigating my 457b after spending a lot of time on it early last year, and finally getting a TIAA rep on the phone who was knowledgeable, or at least confident, about my specific plan. The company hasn't been much help, but I may consider trying my luck again. I was delighted when I found out I had access to this, and so disappointed when I learned of the seemingly dismal withdrawal options.

Thanks too for the input on stocks. I do hope my income goes up over my working years, so perhaps better to get out of some of them ASAP and take the hit rather than wait all the way until RE.

The 529. Ooof, unintentional personal facepunch here! We have discussed kids, just no concrete plans. I think a potential move out of the city looms large for couples like us, which is why a lot of decisions (kids, how much cash needed for a downpayment if we buy and where) feel interconnected, which can sometimes overwhelm decisionmaking.

Spending on food/entertainment way too high, many don't spend this in a year. This expense will also grow at or above inflation. 

457 plans allow early withdrawals but mind your fees with TIAA (or any workplace retirement plan.  There are often TIAA fees on top of mutual fund fees.  I was in a plan were the TIAA offering was charging 0.75% before money was invested in different funds and yes, the rep was confident as she could spell "Fiduciary".  If a plan is terrible, a fiduciary is only responsible to recommend the best option in a terrible selection.   

[FIREeh?]

FIwithKids--thank you for all of your thoughts! We’ve discussed these things before, but your serious and touching post led us to do so again over dinner last night. We don't have a defined RE plan, which we’re OK with, but we’re aligned on a rapid-FI philosophy: not getting caught up in consumerism, spending intentionally aligned with values, second-guessing desires, and knowing that frugality leads to freedom. I'm very lucky. We also aren’t firmly decided on kids, but we’ve already taken some steps (freezing) that extend our timeline a bit.

The wedding will be about 15k divided between the two of us. Not nothing, but my share would be 1.5% of my networth. For us that’s an acceptable splurgy choice that aligns with our values and brings loved ones together for an important celebration. Your point about ideal and less-ideal paths forward is also a good one I’ll keep in mind for our future conversations.

Clarkfan1979—thanks! I came here for medicine, but I don’t mind some sweetness too. Here’s a clearer comp breakdown: 160k earnings. Taxes take 42k. Spending takes 46k. Savings = 72k (40k pre-tax, 26k taxable, 6k roth b/c IRAs nondeductible). We have one more year left on this lease, and we know we’ll be seeking either a cheaper apartment or buying, if we’re ready to commit to NYC for the medium/long-term.

JGS1980—Thank you for the kudos! And definitely. We like cooking, so this case study has been a facepunch to more actively choose groceries over restaurants. That’s her preference, so this is mostly my fault. On FIRE, we are on the same page. The idea of working until 65 feels insane. We are happy SWAMIs at the moment, but know things can change. We want to achieve FI (or even FU money) so that we have some choice, ultimately including RE, whether at 45 or 55.

On married budgets, I haven’t seen a standard here about how to best combine finances. Emotionally and practically, it makes sense. But I do think there might be a “tragedy of the commons” situation where it will be easier to not examine financial expenditures. Of course this is about love and values and communication, but I’m also a big fan of leveraging smart behavioral econ when possible. Anyone have any insights?

[zolotiyeruki]

@FIREeh? You're already miles ahead of most people, simply by being aware of the options and the tradeoffs.

On married budgets, I haven’t seen a standard here about how to best combine finances. Emotionally and practically, it makes sense. But I do think there might be a “tragedy of the commons” situation where it will be easier to not examine financial expenditures. Of course this is about love and values and communication, but I’m also a big fan of leveraging smart behavioral econ when possible. Anyone have any insights?

We're a one-income family, so naturally our finances are combined.  I can't speak for how it would be different with two incomes. That said, while I earn the money and DW does most of the spending, we make sure we are on the same page when it comes to financial decisions and expenses.  For us, the keys have been to:

1) communicate:  We are totally open with spending, and clear expenses with each other before making them.  There are some exceptions--for example, as long as we stay within our grocery budget (and are eating well), I don't worry about what DW is buying.
2) communicate:  We make sure we communicate our individual needs and wants, and that helps us prioritize our discretionary spending.  Knowing what my wife's needs are helps keep my own desires in perspective.  In other words, "should I really spend $X on Y when DW would benefit more if we bought Z?"
3) communicate:  We set a budget, and try to review it regularly, because unexpected stuff comes up, and that pesky "miscellaneous" category tends to run amok.
4) communicate (notice a pattern?): each year, we sit down and plot out expected, yet infrequent expenses, so that we can set aside some funds each month.  This is for things like travel, car insurance, Christmas gifts
5) communicate: We discuss, understand, and accept the expectations and roles we each take.  In our marriage, I'm expected to work to earn money, DW manages the household stuff, I take care of the cars and home repairs, she cooks most of the meals, and we pitch in and help each other as needed.    And we recognize that things will change over time.  Setting those expectations early and clearly has been a huge benefit to us.

This is what works for us.  What works for you will almost certainly differ.  But communication and setting expectations is key in any case.

[charis]

Am I reading this correctly that you are spending vastly more on alcohol annually than groceries?  If so, that jumps out as a bit of a concern.

[Rdy2Fire]

Dining = 512 (6144/year). Includes restaurants, delivery, fast food, and ATMs.
Groceries = 193 (2316/year)
Alcohol & Bars = 328 (3936/year)
Coffee shops = 99    (1188/year)

Well I think there was some great advice given already and although I agree with others that the above could be adjusted, trimmed etc.

However, I don't think is completely insane for a single person in NY. I'd say I am pretty close to this, probably more actually. I've never really sacrificed living for savings though so maybe I'm not a good judge of this but I believe everyone has to find the right balance for them. With all that said, since you've accepted the face punches and don't disagree with them I'd probably try and cut this by 10-20%

[FIREeh?]

zolotiyeruki---I notice the theme, ha. Thank you. Posting this case study was partly a forcing function to raise and face things, even if they seem to be going along smoothly, and to look back at and hold myself accountable. Appreciate the examples and insights on combining finances.

charis---Yes, have to trade a higher grocery budget for a lower out-and-about budget. Since we aren't moving for a fast-as-possible RE, I'll be honest that part of the appeal of NYC at this age are the high salaries and access to things like art, music, comedy, and being out and about vs. having cheap housing, yards, room for DIY stuff, or hiking. For example, if anything, I want more jazz in my life, and those come with two drink minimums. BUT, where I really hear you is health. I need to make sure all of what I said is right-sized compared to healthy and cheaper in-home meals.

Rdy2Fire---thank you! I came here to be held accountable and get some facepunches for things I don't notice, so I'm loving the feedback. At the same time, I feel pretty frugal compared to the "explosion of wastefulness" New York consumers that mostly surround me, so I appreciate getting a little credit, even if there is room to grow. Something noone mentioned but is also top of mind for me is growing my salary. I'm very fortunate already, and made far less throughout my 20s, but in this city in particular there is room to grow substantially, which is another route I'm trying to give enough attention to.

[Dicey]

You asked for facepunches, so here's an easy one:

Dining = 512 (6144/year). Includes restaurants, delivery, fast food, and ATMs.
Groceries = 193 (2316/year)
Alcohol & Bars = 328 (3936/year)
Coffee shops = 99    (1188/year)

That is $13,584 down your gullet, with less than 20% of that on groceries. At 4% SWR, you would need to save $350,000 just to support your eating habits.

No only is this expensive, it seems pretty unhealthy.

This jumped out at me, too, as did the complete lack of charitable giving. OP, your rent is dirt cheap. Apply whatever you did to achieve that to your other budget categories and you will see a huge difference in NW. And I can't sing the praises of eloping highly enough, especially during a pandemic. Even having a courthouse wedding sooner and a party later will save a lot of money and stress.

[Weisass]

Marriage is going to be a big change ….what’s the financial and life plan as a couple?

Fiancé - is she a spender or a saver? Does she want to have the RE option in 40s too? (10 years)
You can get some cost leverage with the 2 of you and incomes coming in. 1 rent, shared food bulk buying,…but other expenses are not shareable.

Wedding - these can be $1k or $100k. The latter would take 20% of your net worth.

Kids - if fiancé is the same age as you (35) then your kids choice is now due to biology factors. Female fertility falls quickly at age 35 and off a cliff by 40.
Cost to raise kids is expensive…childcare under age 5 is easily $2k per month, increasing your expenses by 50% in on factor alone…before the other expenses of formula, diapers, clothing, a car for travel (public transit with all the baby stuff to lug around will get taxing quickly), life insurance to protect family, bigger house with bigger expenses…you know where that bar and restaurant money is getting reallocated

And your retirement spending goal - what rate is that? You have $500k now. What does fiancé have?
You want the option to RE in 40s or 10 years - so how much can you and fiancé save in 10 years to then live off for 50 years and raise kids….

Assume fiancé has same $500k = $1,000k total
Next 10 years you save 50% of your $100k salary each and invest with a 7% annual rate of return.
10 years you have $3.4m
3% series is $100k a year which is about what you and wife had been living on

But above is all the good side….reality with kids and new marriage. A parent takes time off for a few years with kids, or kids expenses increase for 30% less savings, or you diversify portfolio investments in some cash and our current bear market enters a bumpy period for a few years (re 2000 or 2008 crash in sectors)
So now that becomes…
Savings per year is $60k (lower Salary, more expenses, …)
Compound rate is 5%
And your money gets to $2.4M
So 3% swr rate is $72k…and you are less than your current expenses…so stuck in a cycle

Go have a good talk with fiancé about life and financial goals and model it out. Ensure you both are on the same page for life…a marriage is about love and trust and commitment for the rest of your lives, money goals is one of the enabling factors here for your foundation.

Congrats and have a drink at the bar from me…I’m 3 kids in and dropped that expense a long time ago….

Perhaps this will sound niggling, but it really bothers me how often folks assume that a poster on this forum is a man and/or straight when they ask for financial advice. I went back and read the original post—there is no obvious identifier of gender (yes I’m aware the profile of the poster says they are male) anywhere, other than the mention of an engagement ring. And there is no mention of the gender of the fiancé, either. All of these questions about a future wife assume an awful lot about the OP, and while they may be correct in this instance, these assumptions send a message about who is welcome or expected in this forum.

 Just a thought.

[Dicey]

^^As an older, single woman living in the Bay Area, any time I was with a man, people assumed they were my spouse. Simultaneously, when I was with a woman, people assumed I was with my partner. (This was before gay marriage rights were enacted.) I just figured it went with the territory./shrug

Last night, we entertained a group of twelve [vaxxed and boosted] friends in our home. Half the group are gay men. I invited a friend and her friend to sub in, but only she could make it. This led to a funny conversation. One of the men asked where her husband was. And just like that I was transported back to my single days. She's my age and single and he is a long time family friend who took care of her mother until she passed away. When the mom's house was sold, she invited him to live at her house, as housemates. Yeah, everyone thinks they're partners.

Does it really matter if people don't get it right if you don't tell them?
 
Expecting people to intuit your specific situation is not reasonable. It's certainly not worth getting twisted in knots about. It doesn't make us a bunch of exclusionary homophobes.^^

Funny, I've had people assume I was the opposite gender because of my screen name a number of times here. Meh, whatever. Someone once concluded that B42 and I were the same person. They must be daft: clearly I'm not that smart.

[charis]

Re: the recent poster asking us to not just assume everyone is straight (or male, as is common here) as a baseline, whether single or coupled - I think that's a great approach. Some ppl don't want much identifying out there to begin with. So specifying sexual orientation or gender seems like unnecessary identifying information. I don't know why we would assume people are straight unless told otherwise. Just because it happened to you does not mean it should go with the territory.

[Weisass]

Re: the recent poster asking us to not just assume everyone is straight (or male, as is common here) as a baseline, whether single or coupled - I think that's a great approach. Some ppl don't want much identifying out there to begin with. So specifying sexual orientation or gender seems like unnecessary identifying information. I don't know why we would assume people are straight unless told otherwise. Just because it happened to you does not mean it should go with the territory.

That’s really all I’m after. I don’t think folks need to disclose all of that info, but I also think it’s on us not to assume, either.

[Dicey]

Re: the recent poster asking us to not just assume everyone is straight (or male, as is common here) as a baseline, whether single or coupled - I think that's a great approach. Some ppl don't want much identifying out there to begin with. So specifying sexual orientation or gender seems like unnecessary identifying information. I don't know why we would assume people are straight unless told otherwise. Just because it happened to you does not mean it should go with the territory.

...and then I went to the Moab Meetup. It was a small group this year. Everyone was so great, I want to continue to grow these friendships. I don't care what their orientations/partner situations are. We have plenty of common ground, even if everyone's different. Sure, we've "identified" ourselves, but our lives have been enriched because we did.

[Anon-E-Mouze]

charis---Yes, have to trade a higher grocery budget for a lower out-and-about budget. Since we aren't moving for a fast-as-possible RE, I'll be honest that part of the appeal of NYC at this age are the high salaries and access to things like art, music, comedy, and being out and about vs. having cheap housing, yards, room for DIY stuff, or hiking. For example, if anything, I want more jazz in my life, and those come with two drink minimums. BUT, where I really hear you is health. I need to make sure all of what I said is right-sized compared to healthy and cheaper in-home meals.

Having lived an expat life in NYC for almost 10 years, I very much relate to your interest in having access to art, music, comedy, and the associated costs. I think you're already considering this (and it's probably one of the reasons you posted a case study), but I encourage you to ensure that you spend mindfully when it comes to NYC experiences, and that you explore lower-cost options that deliver the same (or nearly the same) bang for buck. For example:

1) Jazz often does come with a two-drink minimum at the usual clubs - but do some research on where you might find jazz and other entertainment at lower prices. (Are there performances in in the boroughs that are a better value? Are there student or other venues with pay-what-you-can pricing, etc?  And if what you really value is live performances that often come with a food/drink price tag, make sure you're not frittering away $$ on drinks and food in venues that aren't worth it. If part of your social life revolves around drinks or meals at restaurants, suggest alternative activities sometimes that don't involve spending money in restaurants or bars.

2) Support NYC restaurants, which are amazing and have been struggling during the pandemic. But have fun exploring non-mainstream restaurants / food truck nights etc, instead of defaulting to the easy options. (New York Magazine's Cheap Eats column is a great source of info.*) Also, if you're not already doing so, consider splitting servings and skipping high mark-up items like soda etc. I always like tasting as many dishes as possible when I go to a restaurant, so when in pre-pandemic days, we would each order an appetizer and split a main course and dessert. Focus on ordering food you can't cook well or that's too time-consuming to cook yourself.

* Also, make sure you're signed up for a New York Public Library card, so that you can cut down on the money you spend on books and magazines. You can get New York Magazine (and zillions of books) for free, digitally.

3) When you order delivery or takeout, try some or all of the following strategies. (1) Consider picking it up if it's relatively close to save on delivery charges. (2) Order dishes that you can't prepare yourself, and then supplement your order with home-cooked food. For example, when we order Asian food, I never order rice as a supplementary dish. We just make our own. Also, I make a great mango salad and a good Thai curry, so we don't order those dishes. However, I haven't yet perfected Singapore noodles, so we'll order that dish and then stir fry some extra veggies and convert that single dish into a dish that serves two people for two meals. We get all the flavour of the restaurant-prepared meal, but we've significantly reduced the per-serving cost and improved its healthiness by adding veggies. 

4) To the extent your NYC fridge/freezer/pantry permit it, make sure you keep a small stock of easy-to-prepare meals that satisfy your "let's just get delivery" cravings. For example, we make and freeze a few pizzas, so that they're ready to cook when we're burnt out at the end of the day and just want an easy option. We also keep some Beyond Burgers in the freezer to satisfy our burger cravings, and I've learned to make some Chipotle-style burritos, and I keep a small stash in the freezer.

PS - I'm wondering if your Screen Name (FIREeh) means you're Canadian like me?

[Dicey]

Great list @charis. Paging another NYC expert, @DollarSlice.

[charis]

Great list @charis. Paging another NYC expert, @DollarSlice.

I wish I could take credit but that was @Anon-E-Mouze

But I agree that one of the greatest things about NYC is access to fantastic live performances for little $ and a good variety of inexpensive food options if you know where to look. 

[Dicey]

Great list @charis. Paging another NYC expert, @DollarSlice.

I wish I could take credit but that was @Anon-E-Mouze

But I agree that one of the greatest things about NYC is access to fantastic live performances for little $ and a good variety of inexpensive food options if you know where to look.

Whoops! My eyes are so bad I have to blow up the screen so much I can't see the left side of the page! Apologies to @Anon-E-Mouze.

[FIREeh?]

Dicey—Don’t worry, I hear the eating out/cost/health dynamic loud and clear! I could’ve guessed it, but part of this case study for me is facing it head-on and holding myself accountable. On charitable giving, I include it under “Gifts” and am lucky to have generous employee match, though we may not be aligned on what the right figure is. Part of that is that my high salary is a very recent change, and so I may not have changed other habits apace as needed. Cost of eloping… noted 😊 But I’ve thought long and hard about this, and feel for us we have zeroed in on a cost and type of celebration that works and doesn’t threaten a plan for FI.

Anon-E-Mouze—What a great list! Some of them I already know, and it’s a matter of discipline. #1 is a perennial challenge, depending on the particular friend and how important they are to me vs. my financial goals. But I already avoid the groups that like high-end restaurants, lots of appetizers for seemingly no reason, and enjoy ordering the most expensive items and splitting the bill evenly—and luckily my better half is fully on board with that decision. But others are smart and new for me! I can see parts of #3 and especially #4 working very well to kick the lazy leanings toward delivery.

I’ve been reading MMM and these forums for close to 2 years, since I found them in the dark early days of the pandemic. It’s so cool to see some posters I've followed on the forum comment on my own case :) I've found other cases and recommendations here inspirational, and I’m looking forward to looking back at my own in a year and seeing how I’ve measured up against my ambitions. Thanks everyone for thoughts, and if DollarSlice or others come by for advice or facepunches, I welcome those too. Love this smart, hard-nosed, philosophical, buck-the-trend group of people, and appreciate everyone’s time and insights!

[Anon-E-Mouze]

Anon-E-Mouze—What a great list! Some of them I already know, and it’s a matter of discipline. #1 is a perennial challenge, depending on the particular friend and how important they are to me vs. my financial goals. But I already avoid the groups that like high-end restaurants, lots of appetizers for seemingly no reason, and enjoy ordering the most expensive items and splitting the bill evenly—and luckily my better half is fully on board with that decision. But others are smart and new for me! I can see parts of #3 and especially #4 working very well to kick the lazy leanings toward delivery.

Happy to share some recipes if you're interested.