Author Topic: Conservative party leadership race  (Read 5582 times)

AO1FireTo

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2022, 09:14:49 PM »
Wow can't believe so many people want to keep the CBC.  I can't remember the last time I watched anything they produced.  Hockey night was good, but they lost that to Rogers.  Here is the list of CBC TV shows.  Tell me how shutting down this bloated network will have any significant impact.  Oh wait did they do Trailer Park Boys, oh that was Showcase.  Shut er down mate.  TV is dead anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programs_broadcast_by_CBC_Television

I'm sure a $1B/year can find a better home.  Lot's more cuts need to be done.  If we don't have the intestinal fortitude to shut down the CBC, not sure how we will ever balance the budget, especially as the Justmeet government announced more deficits today and no plan to curb the housing market.


poxpower

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2022, 10:06:07 PM »
Wow can't believe so many people want to keep the CBC.

It's because most people don't view cutting a government program as giving back taxpayers money.
They emotionally only understand it as a cut and therefore as you being a bad person if you want to cut a program that has any sort of shred of possible benefit, because their have an emotional understanding that this program is "free".

FLBiker

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2022, 06:42:58 AM »
I'm sure that there is waste in the CBC's budget, but I certainly feel like having a publicly-funded news media is important.

I don't know about every country, but in the ones I'm most familiar with, the publicly-funded media is the best source of TV news.  Imperfect, yes, but better than the alternatives.  In the US, PBS is definitely better than CNN, Fox or MSNBC.  When I lived in England, I certainly used the BBC as my primary source of television news, and in Canada I've used CBC (although I admittedly haven't watched a lot of alternatives).  The conclusion I draw from this is that market forces are not generally a good way to shape TV news services.  I think the same could be said for radio -- I've never seen a non-public news radio station that wasn't just ranting opinions one way or the other.

One counter example to this (I don't think it's publicly funded) is Al Jazeera.  I watched a bit of that during the outbreak of the war in Ukraine and it seemed good.

You may disagree, but I think having a good source of TV news is an important part of a functional democracy.  TV news isn't my preferred way to get information, but I think it is for a lot of folks.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2022, 07:26:25 AM »
Were your comment above true, the majority of programming / broadcast decisions would therefore be made by the Canadian government.

It means they will have a huge inherent bias towards defending the government in general and this will almost undoubtedly grow worse over time.

Do you have any evidence of state control over specific CBC programming / programming decisions to support your hypothesis?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-CBC-is-a-biased-broadcasting-institution?share=1

The thing with media bias is people who support the viewpoint of the biased media just see it as "the truth".

CBC blocks commenting on youtube too.
A publicly funded "unbiased" news organization that prevents its citizens from criticizing it.


So I'll have to ask again . . . Do you have any evidence of state control over specific CBC programming / programming decisions to support your hypothesis?  The links that you provided don't appear to show any.  This leads me to believe that your views are based upon personal faith/belief rather than reality.

(Are you a self-described Libertarian by any chance?  This type of faith based reasoning seems to be very common in discussions I've had with Libertarians.)



Not sure I'm reading you correctly here.  You believe that public education results in a weak democracy?  If so, based upon what data?

I have no idea what a "strong democracy" is supposed to mean or look like.

Maybe it would be easier to start from first principles.  So I'll need to ask a few simple questions to get a feel for your beliefs to better understand where to discuss:

- Do you believe that democracy is a good form of government?  If so, why?  If not, which system is better?



From the CBC itself:
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/let-s-get-digital-from-bitcoin-to-stocktok-plus-what-low-literacy-means-for-canada-s-economy-1.5873703/nearly-half-of-adult-canadians-struggle-with-literacy-and-that-s-bad-for-the-economy-1.5873757

One in six people in Canada can't pass the most basic literacy test. That's LITERALLY THE ONE JOB OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.
If they did NOTHING ELSE, in TWELVE YEARS, that's the ONE THING they should do.

And they can't.

How do you think they're doing with the rest of what they teach?

The very article you posted appears to contradict your thesis pretty resoundingly in the first few paragraphs:

Quote
In short, literacy is not like riding a bike. While Canadians tend to leave the high school level with these skills, it takes practice to retain them and Canada's economy does not provide the opportunity to do that for many workers.

As your research shows then, literacy skills are learned in public school.  Does this correction change your viewpoint at all - or is it faith rather than evidence based?



Like the video I previously posted shows, people have zero knowledge of civics in whatever country you tend to poll. Again after 12-14 years of compulsory and EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE public education. ( 13 500$ USD per kid, per years in the USA )

The video you previously posted doesn't show that at all.  I'd encourage you to re-watch it if you believe it does.  It's an eighty second out of context clip of David Friedman describing his personal opinions regarding democracy and voters - completely absent supporting evidence.  It mostly seems to boil down to Friedman arguing that people in a democracy are not incentivized to take it seriously enough for democracy to work.



There's no metric by which you can say public education is a success.

I can go on with this forever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hZylJp-pHo&t=1s

Just watch this. But again. There's endless hours of this. Endless.

I haven't had time to watch through this video in it's entirety, but will do so and respond back later.

As far as a metric by which you can say public education is a success . . . Canada appears in the top 10 of countries for math, science, and reading when looking at international Pisa test scores.  These high averages are widely distributed between economically advantaged and disadvantaged people in the country.  We do this through a non-unified piecemeal provincial set of educational systems where federal government is barely involved at all - and at a much lower per student cost than other countries we're competing against.  (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-40708421#:~:text=At%20university%20level%2C%20Canada%20has,in%20OECD%20countries%20of%2035%25.)

Since you seem to view that as a failure, can you describe what you would consider an educational success, give examples of places/countries that follow it, and describe how you believe Canada should pursue success without public education?

AO1FireTo

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2022, 08:16:31 AM »
Wow can't believe so many people want to keep the CBC.

It's because most people don't view cutting a government program as giving back taxpayers money.
They emotionally only understand it as a cut and therefore as you being a bad person if you want to cut a program that has any sort of shred of possible benefit, because their have an emotional understanding that this program is "free".

Yes, great comment, I think this is it exactly.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2022, 08:51:23 AM »
There's no metric by which you can say public education is a success.

I can go on with this forever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hZylJp-pHo&t=1s

Just watch this. But again. There's endless hours of this. Endless.

I haven't had time to watch through this video in it's entirety, but will do so and respond back later.

So I've given this video a couple views now and have some comments.  First of all, a summary of my understanding of the content:

Caplan starts with the assumption that any education that doesn't directly result in greater wages is a waste of time and money.  Caplan believes that there is no value to learning civics, geography, history, etc.  Pretty much anything beyond basic reading/writing and simple math is extraneous.

One of his main arguments seems to be that rather than educating people through a public system, they should receive their education from employers while working at a job - only receiving the bare minimum of education necessary to perform what the company wants of them.  This would result in a more cost effective method of education, and Caplan argues that any missing information can be found through self-study on the internet.  He believes that young teenagers (13, 14, 15) should be working rather than in school.

He discusses some concerns about education inflation - since more people are educated, that means that requirements for jobs simply increase to accommodate the qualifications of workers (even if the education isn't useful).  Caplan also argues that employers use degrees/diplomas as merit badges (this is why having a university degree after four years will land much better paying jobs than having just three years of university - even though from a simplistic point of view one would expect that three years of university would be about 75% as good as having a degree).

Interestingly enough, Caplan argues that private and public schools are equally wasteful/useless.  Since he believes that the majority of education is useless, he wants to make education something that is paid for only privately under the assumption that it's a waste of public money.




To my comments:

I don't agree with some of Caplan's initial assumptions.  Even from a purely economic perspective, I believe that a greater general level of education helps people better determine which jobs will best suit them and results in greater flexibility/ability to contribute to the economy in different ways.  People are not robots.  The only system I'm aware of where children were selected for a particular field and then trained/prepared intensively only in that single field was the old Soviet approach . . . and that didn't seem to produce success at a greater rate than our system.

His argument about education inflation seems to be a valid one though.  There exist many jobs today that require a degree for no discernable reason.  I agree that there's likely an issue there that needs to be addressed.

I don't agree with Caplan that self-learning through the internet is a valid replacement for public education.  The internet is a great source of information and knowledge . . . but it's also a great source of lies and falsehoods.  It requires a level of knowledge and critical thinking to be able to sort one from the other - and this is precisely the sort of generalist thinking that Caplan argues is unnecessary and shouldn't be taught.  To me, this seems like a half baked idea doomed to fail.

A democracy works only when the electorate is informed enough to make rational decision.  Certainly, sometimes individuals in the public will get it wrong.  You will always fight against laziness and stupidity.  It's not perfect by any means.  But without a certain base level of education where people are able to comprehend the decision they're making, democracy really can't exist.  If you say I have to vote between A and B . . . and then give me no information I can understand about A or B, then I don't really have a vote.  This is why I very much disagree with Caplan's notion of the lack of value in civics.

In summary, the arguments that this man is putting forth are interesting thought experiments, but ultimately don't seem very compelling.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2022, 10:32:33 AM »
Education is provincial, but the general principles are worth discussing.  The general principal is, the government does things that are beneficial for the population as a whole.  Different levels of government have different responsibilities, because some are important to everyone across the country (that is the feds) some are more geographically specific (that is the provinces) and some are local (municipalities of all sorts).  The government is not out to make money.  We accept that, that is why there are taxes.  Taxes give government money to spend on activities that are not suited for the private sector.  Like armies, or fire departments.

Hmm, as a Quebec resident for decades, let me talk about higher education via employer and how it can suck.  The CEGEP* system has been a great success - and much of the enrolment is in Career Programs - basically job levels above basic but not university - think technician (trades school) versus technologist - CEGEP does the technologies. Nursing, Respiratory and Anesthesiology, Vet Techs, Architectural Technicians, Electronics, all sorts.  But they still do the basic education - English/French, Humanities, etc.  So everyone comes out of CEGEP with a post High School general education.  Scheduling also makes sure there is a mix in the general courses, so pre-university students and career students mingle.

Before CEGEPs there was higher ed for the elite, and trade school for everyone else, education was very stratified.  No longer.  Plus the rigour of the Career programs shows that people who don't go on to University are not stupid, they just have different career goals.  The huge advantage in the Career programs is that everyone is trained to a certain level in all aspects of their chosen career.  When the education was done by employers, they were trained very specifically for that job with that employer, and that really hampered job mobility.  Take a vet tech - a vet in a clinic would train them after HS, and all they would learn was what that vet wanted them to know.  That made it hard to shift to another clinic, or go from, say, small to large animal practice, or into research.  Now all career pathways are open, and graduates can easily change jobs.  It also means that if a student wants to work in another province (not that Quebec provincial governments appreciate this, but you know, power to the people) their accreditations are well understood and the move is easy.

To me the CEGEP system is one of the big winners from the Quiet Revolution.  And again, it shows how government can do some things much better than private industry would do it.  It benefits employees, because they are not trapped.  It helps employers, because the specialized act of education is not dumped on them.  It takes money and equipment to train at that level.  The STEM career programs in CEGEPS have big budgets.

Another provincial (Quebec) example.  Subsidized daycare.  People screamed when subsidized daycare was introduced.  But after a few years the financial analysis showed it more than paid for itself.  Women went back into the work force sooner, because their young children were in good daycare.  That meant families had more income, they spent more, and there were more tax revenues.  Win-win.  So now the Federal Government and the Ontario Government have signed a subsidized daycare agreement, and I am cheering. 


*CEGEP = College d'Education General Et Professional - i.e. College of general and profession education.  General courses for all, specialized courses in a profession or pre-university.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2022, 10:53:22 AM »

I would argue the opposite.  Governments should be supporting culture and the arts, especially in a country basically made up of immigrants. 


If there's a cultural product I want, I'll buy it.

How do you buy it if it isn't there?  We live next to the US, the numbers support their product over us.  Government support helps things get started.  I was at a discussion group where so many small business owners were talking about how government can help or hinder them.  Do you want us to be a branch plant economy in our culture as well as our industry?

There's another word for government controlled culture: Propaganda.

CANCON said play a certain % of Canadian artists.  It didn't say which ones.


I can tell you prices go up and up the more difficult it is to deliver services.

Yes that's economics and awesome.
Otherwise you'd have 50 people being taxed to subsidize high speed internet to some crackpot who wants to live on an iceberg.

"But it's my human right to have internet, that thing that didn't exist until the 1990s".

Oh we get a straw man argument.  There is a LOT of rural Canada.  You want everyone who doesn't live in a city to pay high prices for slow internet, or not have it at all?  We saw during the pandemic how important good internet access is.  Not just people working from home, but all the children being schooled online at home.

Not having internet access is just as limiting as living in an area where the schools and health care suck. 


Your outlook is very narrow.  Getting back on topic, the job of political party leaders is to have the broad view (and a long range view as well).  At the Federal level, they have to consider everything from Middle Island to Ellesmere Island, from Cape Spear to easternmost Yukon, and everything in between.

And re government control, governments at federal and provincial levels have auditors-general whose job specifically is to criticize their governments.




PoutineLover

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2022, 10:56:41 AM »
There is so much value to having free, quality news available to the public. There are paywalls on every private news outlet on the Internet and as someone who doesn't have a tv, I value the ability to go read about current events on cbc. Not everyone can afford to pay for quality news and when there isn't a free source, it's so easy to slip into misinformation on social media with nowhere to double check. Sure, we all pay a little for cbc but from my perspective it's money well spent.

poxpower

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2022, 11:36:00 AM »
So I'll have to ask again . . . Do you have any evidence of state control over specific CBC programming / programming decisions to support your hypothesis?

No but it's a moot point because even if CBC was the best news source in the world, I'd want 0$ going to them.

Do you believe that democracy is a good form of government?  If so, why?  If not, which system is better?

There are no forms of good government.
That is far outside the scope of this discussion though.

As your research shows then, literacy skills are learned in public school.  Does this correction change your viewpoint at all - or is it faith rather than evidence based?

No that's one of the main flaws of schools: People forget almost everything they learned there.
That's why your theory of schools forming "informed voters" doesn't pan out in reality.


completely absent supporting evidence.

He references polling data on civics that show people have no idea who their representatives are and what they ever voted on.
The point being to expose that people ( like you ) have a romantic idea of this "informed voter/citizen" that just doesn't
exist at all.

Again I know the American data but if you ask people I think 1/3rd can't name the branches of their government, a vast minority can name
who ONE of their senators are and likely almost no one knows what that senator ever voted on unless they just saw it on the news.

Voters are not, and never have been and NEVER WILL BE informed in the way that people like you believe they need to be to have a "good strong democracy".

As far as a metric by which you can say public education is a success

Home schooling ( and no schooling ) are the real comparisons, not comparing countries with the same system.
If you do that you find that public schools, for what they cost and for what time is spent in them, are a complete and utter failure and disaster.

If you want to delve into this, it's a long long topic that requires hours of time investment.
But if you want to read about it, I can post you material that will at least start to make you question what all this time and money is being spent on.

One of his main arguments seems to be that rather than educating people through a public system, they should receive their education from employers while working at a job

That's his retort to people who claim one main function of schools is job skills.

Interestingly enough, Caplan argues that private and public schools are equally wasteful/useless.

Yes because they must adhere to state standards for signaling and entry into certain jobs/ college programs.

It requires a level of knowledge and critical thinking to be able to sort one from the other

You don't learn this in schools. The most obvious example being that every election cycle, one half of the country calls the other half ignorant and brainwashed.
Even as per the opinion of citizens the failure rate is 50% for teaching people how to think lol.
And their logic is "if you knew how to think, you'd think like me". What's more likely? That 50% are the true deep thinkers or that pretty much none of them are?

I also don't know why you'd think a school model of "Sit down and repeat what I say" would teach people critical thinking skills.
If you want to go back in history, this school model was built by the Prussians for nationalistic reasons of having a strong obedient worker class who they could
easily mobilize to do grand social / military projects. The entire point was to remove your critical thinking skills and make you an efficient cog in the state's machine.

poxpower

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2022, 11:55:30 AM »
The general principal is, the government does things that are beneficial for the population as a whole. 

Who decides what's beneficial for "the population" and by what right?
And how?

Is having a bunch of people vote basically for the face of the leadership after a couple TV interviews achieving the goal of finding and implementing "what is beneficial for all"?

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2022, 12:36:47 PM »
Hi Poxpower - I get that you seem to be pretty sold on the "don't fund things" line of reasoning for the government. Is your idea that in the absence of government funding, the private sector would step up? Or is it more that the things which people don't want would simply cease to exist absent government funding?

Could you expand on your idea of what you'd like Canada to look like, and what public policy or private industry actions would support that hypothetical place?

In general, I think that a society where people have the opportunity to be successful on the basis of merit (and more or less independent of where they were born) is good and just. I believe you can support that kind of society with universal education, accessible and transparent legal systems, healthcare, access to information (via media), etc. I'm generally in favour of the government supporting these sorts of services even when it's bad for me personally. I definitely object to the mechanisms which are sometimes selected, but that's a question of implementation and policy ... it seems like you have a different vision of what Canada should be and I'd like to understand that better.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2022, 01:21:11 PM »
So I'll have to ask again . . . Do you have any evidence of state control over specific CBC programming / programming decisions to support your hypothesis?

No but it's a moot point because even if CBC was the best news source in the world, I'd want 0$ going to them.

There would seem to be little point discussing this with you then, as your views are based upon some sort of political faith rather than fact based.


Do you believe that democracy is a good form of government?  If so, why?  If not, which system is better?

There are no forms of good government.
That is far outside the scope of this discussion though.

We run into faith based argument difficulty again.  We were discussing it because you didn't understand why an informed electorate is important for a democracy.  But now it seems that you're not a fan of democracy (or any other form of government).  If someone views all government as bad as an article of faith, then there's not much point in discussing techniques for strengthening it.


As your research shows then, literacy skills are learned in public school.  Does this correction change your viewpoint at all - or is it faith rather than evidence based?

No that's one of the main flaws of schools: People forget almost everything they learned there.
That's why your theory of schools forming "informed voters" doesn't pan out in reality.

This is just a bad faith argument.

You linked an article that completely contradicted your claims about school and now are shifting the goalposts.

Your new claim is that schools should be responsible for not only teaching people, but also ensuring that they never forget anything they're ever taught?

That doesn't seem very reasonable.  But we'll get back to this in a second*.


completely absent supporting evidence.

He references polling data on civics that show people have no idea who their representatives are and what they ever voted on.

This comment is not true.  I watched the link you provided several times.  It was completely absent supporting evidence.  You're entitled to make up your own opinion, but not your own facts.


As far as a metric by which you can say public education is a success

Home schooling ( and no schooling ) are the real comparisons, not comparing countries with the same system.
If you do that you find that public schools, for what they cost and for what time is spent in them, are a complete and utter failure and disaster.

If you want to delve into this, it's a long long topic that requires hours of time investment.
But if you want to read about it, I can post you material that will at least start to make you question what all this time and money is being spent on.

Homeschooling is a perfectly valid way to educate a child, and from everything that I've read educational outcomes can meet or exceed that of public education.  But homeschooling is (by it's nature) quite variable.  While some kids will do much better in a homeschooling environment, some do not (the result outcomes that I've seen tend to be bimodal).  It's also not something that's available to a lot of families (where both parents work), so is not really a viable option there.

* I'd like to see your data that homeschooling results in things never being forgotten over the lifetime of a pupil.  Earlier you argued that although public schools teach students things pretty well while they're in school, some of the students don't retain that information - therefore you claimed that public schools are a failure.  Since you're now arguing that homeschooling is much better, I'd like to see the data you have that it rectifies this problem please.

I'm not familiar with educational data regarding no schooling.  Do you have any to share?


It requires a level of knowledge and critical thinking to be able to sort one from the other

You don't learn this in schools.

Yes, I most certainly did.


The most obvious example being that every election cycle, one half of the country calls the other half ignorant and brainwashed.

Even as per the opinion of citizens the failure rate is 50% for teaching people how to think lol.
And their logic is "if you knew how to think, you'd think like me". What's more likely? That 50% are the true deep thinkers or that pretty much none of them are?

Do you have facts to back up your claims here, or is this another article of faith?


I also don't know why you'd think a school model of "Sit down and repeat what I say" would teach people critical thinking skills.

I don't think this would teach people critical thinking skills.  But that's certainly not a description of what's taught in the current Ontario curriculum (which is the teaching resource I have the most experience with).


If you want to go back in history, this school model was built by the Prussians for nationalistic reasons of having a strong obedient worker class who they could easily mobilize to do grand social / military projects. The entire point was to remove your critical thinking skills and make you an efficient cog in the state's machine.

There's as much similarity between the modern Canadian educational system and 18th century Prussian education as there is between modern Canadian law and Hammurabic code.  This is a red herring, not a salient point.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 01:35:06 PM by GuitarStv »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2022, 01:30:46 PM »
Just a toss in, the strongest influence on early Canadian education was the Scottish model.  You know, the one that had every Scottish child learn reading, writing and arithmetic, when most British children were illiterate.  There was a reason beyond climate tolerance for most of the fur traders being Scots - they could keep the books at a trading post.  Where in the world did an idea of Prussian education influence  come from?   Maybe third hand as various education methods have been played with?

Our early Universities were also based on Scottish universities.  Even the ones that were technically religious were basically secular (except in Quebec, obviously).

poxpower

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2022, 11:06:12 PM »
This comment is not true.  I watched the link you provided several times.  It was completely absent supporting evidence.  You're entitled to make up your own opinion, but not your own facts.

He wrote a book on this subject.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/03/28/how-many-people-know-their-senators/yfgXyHR96X7YGhesaNQbnM/story.html
1/3rd of American adults can't even name one branch of government.

This is not controversial. At all. Sorry.

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2022, 11:44:39 PM »
Is your idea that in the absence of government funding, the private sector would step up?

Yes they always have and always would.

Could you expand on your idea of what you'd like Canada to look like, and what public policy or private industry actions would support that hypothetical place?

If I told you what it would look like, you'd simply not believe me.
For starters there should be a complete separation of state and economy.


In general, I think that a society where people have the opportunity to be successful on the basis of merit (and more or less independent of where they were born)
[/quote]

You get that with freedom, not wealth transfers.

Just a toss in, the strongest influence on early Canadian education was the Scottish model.

Our current education model is the Prussian model, which was widely copied in the 19th century then honed by by the Frankfurt school in the 20th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

The original feature of the system being a national curriculum that is publicly funded and inculcated into all citizens in a mandatory fashion.

The logic being that a united nation that is easy to control will allow a ruling body of wise experts to make everyone prosper.
That is also the central idea of communism, that individuals are disorganized and selfish and that it logically follows that if you centralize all decision-making,everyone will be better off.

That's how people think today. That's what global warming initiatives are for instance, but on a global scale, not even a national scale anymore.
This gets people who know absolutely nothing about this subject to blindly trust the policies of experts with the promise of solving a problem that couldn't ever be solved by uncoordinated individuals.

But the main insight of real economics is to understand that individuals responding to each other's needs is actually what makes a society rich and central planners is what destroys them.

That is the opposite of how most people understand reality, so it's almost impossible to talk politics with anyone because their entire understanding of how anything works is basically wrong, because they make this one massive false assumption.

If you just have this ONE insight, that central planning doesn't work, you can start to understand the roots of so many problems that people keep trying to solve with solutions that predictably constantly fail.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2022, 07:22:44 AM »
So, poxpower, if you think our present form of government is totally wrong anyway, why are you here in a discussion of the Conservative Party leadership race?  Seems you should be in another discussion entirely.  You could always start one yourself over in Off Topic, since a discussion like that would not be specifically Canadian.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2022, 08:26:03 AM »
But the main insight of real economics is to understand that individuals responding to each other's needs is actually what makes a society rich and central planners is what destroys them.

That is the opposite of how most people understand reality, so it's almost impossible to talk politics with anyone because their entire understanding of how anything works is basically wrong, because they make this one massive false assumption.

If you just have this ONE insight, that central planning doesn't work, you can start to understand the roots of so many problems that people keep trying to solve with solutions that predictably constantly fail.

I think that the problem you're running into is that your arguments come from a place of faith rather than reason.  There haven't been put forth any valid logic or research to support the extraordinary claims and initial assumptions that are being made in your posts.

Rather ironically, this line of reasoning depends on someone just accepting your statements at face value without any provided research or proof.  Exactly what you're claiming the education system does - again, without any evidence.)

poxpower

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2022, 10:49:04 AM »
So, poxpower, if you think our present form of government is totally wrong anyway, why are you here in a discussion of the Conservative Party leadership race?

Because people make leadership choices based on things I believe aren't true, so I correct them.


Rather ironically, this line of reasoning depends on someone just accepting your statements at face value without any provided research or proof.  Exactly what you're claiming the education system does - again, without any evidence.)

You just glossed over the point I singled out about an informed electorate. You claimed "there's no evidence" I showed very clear evidence and you ignored it entirely, going back now to this claim that "I'm just arguing on faith" and "I'm a bad faith actor".

Okay bud.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2022, 01:31:06 PM »
You just glossed over the point I singled out about an informed electorate. You claimed "there's no evidence" I showed very clear evidence and you ignored it entirely, going back now to this claim that "I'm just arguing on faith" and "I'm a bad faith actor".

Okay bud.


Hmm.  Well, I wouldn't want to gloss over anything.  So here's the unproven claim you're discussing (that the electorate of no country is, or has ever been 'informed' about politics):
The electorate of no country is, or has ever been "informed" about politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dBMb1rKomI

In it you link a youtube video that is a little over a minute of an author describing the theory that he has that people in the United States are too lazy to vote in an informed way.  The youtube video is in no way referenced to anything.

Then about the video, you argued:
He references polling data on civics that show people have no idea who their representatives are and what they ever voted on.

Again, that clip references nothing.  But later on, you added in this information:

He wrote a book on this subject.

So. . . still no evidence so far - just a vague appeal to authority (in this case a person who has written a book).

You also added in this semi-related (?) information:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/03/28/how-many-people-know-their-senators/yfgXyHR96X7YGhesaNQbnM/story.html
1/3rd of American adults can't even name one branch of government.

So, with full disclosure and no glossing over of anything . . . you haven't provided any evidence to support your original statement.  The single bit of data you did provide indicates that a surprising number of Americans can't name a branch of government.  Of course, that doesn't prove your original statement at all.

I'd say at best that it's a half-hearted introduction to a discussion about the impacts of education and voter involvement in democracy in the United States though.  But we were talking about Canada (in this thread about Canadian politics under the 'Canada discussion' section of the forum.)

If it was just the one time, I'd chalk it up to some sort of misunderstanding.  But you seemed confused when I mentioned the many unproven claims you've made in this thread.  So let me find some for you to review . . . there are quite a few to pick from.  (I've included links so you can go back and read them in their full context - I've attempted to summarize and contextualize the claims in as simple a manner as possible below):

Wanting state controlled/funded media is a Banana Republic move.

You don't get that [an informed electorate] with state media or schools. You get the reverse.

The control you [the government] get over them [the CBC] is proportional to the [tax] money you give.

That's [profit is] the goal of every human endeavor.

It means they [the CBC] will have a huge inherent bias towards defending the government in general and this will almost undoubtedly grow worse over time.

There's no metric by which you can say public education is a success.

most people don't view cutting a government program as giving back taxpayers money.

There are no forms of good government.

public schools, for what they cost and for what time is spent in them, are a complete and utter failure and disaster.

You don't learn this [critical thinking] in schools.

every election cycle, one half of the country calls the other half ignorant and brainwashed.

The entire point [of school in Canada, based upon the Prussian system]was to remove your critical thinking skills and make you an efficient cog in the state's machine.

individuals responding to each other's needs is actually what makes a society rich and central planners is what destroys them.

a complete separation of state and economy [is desirable].

But the main insight of real economics is to understand that individuals responding to each other's needs is actually what makes a society rich and central planners is what destroys them.

As you can see, there are quite a few unsupported and extraordinary claims being given out here.  Perhaps you would consider supporting some of them rather than relying on people having the same (apparently blind) faith that you do in them.

Now, on to bad faith arguments.  I didn't ever say that you were a 'bad faith actor'.  If I believed that you were a bad faith actor, I wouldn't bother to discuss things with you.  That said, there are two clear instances where you have argued in bad faith during this discussion:

Bad Faith Instance 1:
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/let-s-get-digital-from-bitcoin-to-stocktok-plus-what-low-literacy-means-for-canada-s-economy-1.5873703/nearly-half-of-adult-canadians-struggle-with-literacy-and-that-s-bad-for-the-economy-1.5873757

One in six people in Canada can't pass the most basic literacy test. That's LITERALLY THE ONE JOB OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.
If they did NOTHING ELSE, in TWELVE YEARS, that's the ONE THING they should do.

And they can't.

How do you think they're doing with the rest of what they teach?

Here you linked an article that said the opposite of what you were claiming:
Quote
In short, literacy is not like riding a bike. While Canadians tend to leave the high school level with these skills, it takes practice to retain them and Canada's economy does not provide the opportunity to do that for many workers.

Which is an easy mistake to make . . . but when pointed out, rather than admit that mistake you instead attempted to shift the goalposts (in a rather ridiculous way):

As your research shows then, literacy skills are learned in public school.  Does this correction change your viewpoint at all - or is it faith rather than evidence based?

No that's one of the main flaws of schools: People forget almost everything they learned there.
That's why your theory of schools forming "informed voters" doesn't pan out in reality.


Bad Faith Instance 2:
Or where you just outright refuse to acknowledge that your comments are baseless:
So I'll have to ask again . . . Do you have any evidence of state control over specific CBC programming / programming decisions to support your hypothesis?

No

If you were arguing in good faith about this, you would have evidence to support the many claims that were made about the CBC.

AO1FireTo

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2022, 06:51:58 PM »
You just glossed over the point I singled out about an informed electorate. You claimed "there's no evidence" I showed very clear evidence and you ignored it entirely, going back now to this claim that "I'm just arguing on faith" and "I'm a bad faith actor".

Okay bud.


Hmm.  Well, I wouldn't want to gloss over anything.  So here's the unproven claim you're discussing (that the electorate of no country is, or has ever been 'informed' about politics):
The electorate of no country is, or has ever been "informed" about politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dBMb1rKomI

In it you link a youtube video that is a little over a minute of an author describing the theory that he has that people in the United States are too lazy to vote in an informed way.  The youtube video is in no way referenced to anything.

Then about the video, you argued:
He references polling data on civics that show people have no idea who their representatives are and what they ever voted on.

Again, that clip references nothing.  But later on, you added in this information:

He wrote a book on this subject.

So. . . still no evidence so far - just a vague appeal to authority (in this case a person who has written a book).

You also added in this semi-related (?) information:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/03/28/how-many-people-know-their-senators/yfgXyHR96X7YGhesaNQbnM/story.html
1/3rd of American adults can't even name one branch of government.

So, with full disclosure and no glossing over of anything . . . you haven't provided any evidence to support your original statement.  The single bit of data you did provide indicates that a surprising number of Americans can't name a branch of government.  Of course, that doesn't prove your original statement at all.

I'd say at best that it's a half-hearted introduction to a discussion about the impacts of education and voter involvement in democracy in the United States though.  But we were talking about Canada (in this thread about Canadian politics under the 'Canada discussion' section of the forum.)

If it was just the one time, I'd chalk it up to some sort of misunderstanding.  But you seemed confused when I mentioned the many unproven claims you've made in this thread.  So let me find some for you to review . . . there are quite a few to pick from.  (I've included links so you can go back and read them in their full context - I've attempted to summarize and contextualize the claims in as simple a manner as possible below):

Wanting state controlled/funded media is a Banana Republic move.

You don't get that [an informed electorate] with state media or schools. You get the reverse.

The control you [the government] get over them [the CBC] is proportional to the [tax] money you give.

That's [profit is] the goal of every human endeavor.

It means they [the CBC] will have a huge inherent bias towards defending the government in general and this will almost undoubtedly grow worse over time.

There's no metric by which you can say public education is a success.

most people don't view cutting a government program as giving back taxpayers money.

There are no forms of good government.

public schools, for what they cost and for what time is spent in them, are a complete and utter failure and disaster.

You don't learn this [critical thinking] in schools.

every election cycle, one half of the country calls the other half ignorant and brainwashed.

The entire point [of school in Canada, based upon the Prussian system]was to remove your critical thinking skills and make you an efficient cog in the state's machine.

individuals responding to each other's needs is actually what makes a society rich and central planners is what destroys them.

a complete separation of state and economy [is desirable].

But the main insight of real economics is to understand that individuals responding to each other's needs is actually what makes a society rich and central planners is what destroys them.

As you can see, there are quite a few unsupported and extraordinary claims being given out here.  Perhaps you would consider supporting some of them rather than relying on people having the same (apparently blind) faith that you do in them.

Now, on to bad faith arguments.  I didn't ever say that you were a 'bad faith actor'.  If I believed that you were a bad faith actor, I wouldn't bother to discuss things with you.  That said, there are two clear instances where you have argued in bad faith during this discussion:

Bad Faith Instance 1:
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/costofliving/let-s-get-digital-from-bitcoin-to-stocktok-plus-what-low-literacy-means-for-canada-s-economy-1.5873703/nearly-half-of-adult-canadians-struggle-with-literacy-and-that-s-bad-for-the-economy-1.5873757

One in six people in Canada can't pass the most basic literacy test. That's LITERALLY THE ONE JOB OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.
If they did NOTHING ELSE, in TWELVE YEARS, that's the ONE THING they should do.

And they can't.

How do you think they're doing with the rest of what they teach?

Here you linked an article that said the opposite of what you were claiming:
Quote
In short, literacy is not like riding a bike. While Canadians tend to leave the high school level with these skills, it takes practice to retain them and Canada's economy does not provide the opportunity to do that for many workers.

Which is an easy mistake to make . . . but when pointed out, rather than admit that mistake you instead attempted to shift the goalposts (in a rather ridiculous way):

As your research shows then, literacy skills are learned in public school.  Does this correction change your viewpoint at all - or is it faith rather than evidence based?

No that's one of the main flaws of schools: People forget almost everything they learned there.
That's why your theory of schools forming "informed voters" doesn't pan out in reality.


Bad Faith Instance 2:
Or where you just outright refuse to acknowledge that your comments are baseless:
So I'll have to ask again . . . Do you have any evidence of state control over specific CBC programming / programming decisions to support your hypothesis?

No

If you were arguing in good faith about this, you would have evidence to support the many claims that were made about the CBC.

You must be Fired to have this much free time.

Rockies

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2022, 08:33:41 PM »

It's interesting to me, too, to read about how Canadians feel that their country is headed in the wrong direction.  I don't know enough to disagree with that (I have no idea what living here was like 10, 20 or 50 years ago) but coming from America it seems pretty good.  America is a better place to make money, but that's about it in my opinion.

We've been here (Nova Scotia) for almost 2 years, and I think our only real gripe is with healthcare -- we still don't have family doctors.

I am an American who lives in Alberta. I think Canada is a much better place for me to make money ( I work a technical role in the public sector). I've been given more opportunity, responsibility, and think my wage is a bit higher than if I had stayed in the US.   I also live in a place where I have never had much trouble finding a family doctor.

I think the whole "you make more money in USA" is limited to a few specific careers (like if you are a software engineer, or if you are at the top of your field). I think in general the middle class in Canada has it much better here. Also I think my overall tax rate is just slightly higher than it would be in most parts of the USA (again really depends on the location), but not really enough to make a big deal about.

When I travel back to the USA I find most places just seem to be massive urban conglomerations with mega sprawl and interstate traffic. Those things exist in Canada but to a lesser extent. There also seems to be a lot of very rich and a lot of very poor people in the USA. Again, this all really really depends on where you are.

Overall I love the US and I love Canada, but I think Canada has provided me with a better life. The only gripe I have about Canada is that people are a little more boring and eccentricity doesn't seem to be as accepted.

Of course Nova Scotia is a very different place and Economy than Alberta.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2022, 05:39:16 PM »

It's interesting to me, too, to read about how Canadians feel that their country is headed in the wrong direction.  I don't know enough to disagree with that (I have no idea what living here was like 10, 20 or 50 years ago) but coming from America it seems pretty good.  America is a better place to make money, but that's about it in my opinion.

We've been here (Nova Scotia) for almost 2 years, and I think our only real gripe is with healthcare -- we still don't have family doctors.

I am an American who lives in Alberta. I think Canada is a much better place for me to make money ( I work a technical role in the public sector). I've been given more opportunity, responsibility, and think my wage is a bit higher than if I had stayed in the US.   I also live in a place where I have never had much trouble finding a family doctor.

I think the whole "you make more money in USA" is limited to a few specific careers (like if you are a software engineer, or if you are at the top of your field). I think in general the middle class in Canada has it much better here. Also I think my overall tax rate is just slightly higher than it would be in most parts of the USA (again really depends on the location), but not really enough to make a big deal about.

When I travel back to the USA I find most places just seem to be massive urban conglomerations with mega sprawl and interstate traffic. Those things exist in Canada but to a lesser extent. There also seems to be a lot of very rich and a lot of very poor people in the USA. Again, this all really really depends on where you are.

Overall I love the US and I love Canada, but I think Canada has provided me with a better life. The only gripe I have about Canada is that people are a little more boring and eccentricity doesn't seem to be as accepted.

Of course Nova Scotia is a very different place and Economy than Alberta.

Well we do sometimes call Alberta "Texas North", although there is a lot more to Alberta than oil (like my Dad, born there).

Eccentricity depends totally on the area.  I walked down Wellington Street (not near Parliament Hill) a few years ago carrying a spinning wheel, and no-one blinked.  And you have to agree, someone carrying a spinning wheel is not an every day sight.    ;-)

Malcat

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2022, 04:49:06 AM »
I'm generally not posting outside of my own journal, but I thought I would weigh in as someone who personally has dealt with both of these men.

I've known Jean on and off for a few decades, and although I don't know Pierre nearly as well, DH does as he worked for him.

I count Jean among one of the most intelligent and interesting people to talk to that I've ever met. From our very first conversation when I was only 15, to our last conversation several years ago. He has always been consistently insightful, thoughtful, and deeply cares about his work.

I DO NOT agree with everything he does politically, and he had it coming when the students toppled his QC government because he had gotten too comfortable in the role of premiere. But I have still always seen him as a person of intelligence and substance.

Now, it's been awhile and people can change, but that's my general impression of him.

Pierre? Well...one good thing I can say is that he's come a looooong way and has become a very effective speaker. When DH worked for him he was famously stupid. Like, his senior staff would eyeroll at his idiocy. He was always a raging asshole, which has worked for him in his frothing-at-the-mouth critic role.

The liberals did just hand him the perfect platform to shine though. By having the biggest fucking doofus as their finance minister, and having one of their first major financial mandates be probably the WORST crafted policy I've ever seen, they set Pierre up to use his aggression and sound really, really smart.

I mean, a brain damaged chimp would have sounded smart compared to the self-employed tax policy, which was, what? 23 points and they had to walk back, what? 20 of them??

That was where I met Pierre. I invited him to speak at an event for self-employed medical professionals as to how this horrid policy would affect them. He gave a very good talk, but he was not exactly pleasant to speak to in person. He never made eye contact with me, got my name wrong all night, and walked past me and left without saying goodbye. To add more texture to this anecdote, he spent *plenty* of time talking to the one man who was there, the owner of a small accounting firm. It's a women's group, so it stood out that the only person he spoke to was the one other man there, even though that man wasn't a member of the organization he was there to speak to. I, on the other hand, am the president of this well respected organization.

I came home and told DH who shrugged and said "yep, sounds about right."

I personally have always voted for people, not parties. I believe that good people in governments make for better governments. Now, I don't know either of these men well, but I can say that based on my personal experiences, I would rather Jean than Pierre, just because one has acknowledged and respected my existence since I was nobody and the other very much did not, even when I was someone important that he probably should have talked to.

Now again, people do change. I'm not an expert on either of them. But thought people might appreciate a bit of personal texture added to the debate.

At the end of the day though, the inner workings of that party are so poisonous and broken right now, who is best to lead isn't even the salient question. It's all about who can navigate the toxic mess.

They never quite recovered from amalgamation of the two conservative parties and the divide has actually gotten worse, not better over time. It's really too bad, because as hardcore leftist as I am, I represent the interest of a lot of small c conservatives, and I see that there is a huge lack of good conservative representation out there.

As much as I disliked Pierre, I was grateful for his fiscally conservative role in viciously attacking Morneau's terrible, terrible finance policy because it was just sloppy and bad and specifically injured the middle class that he purported to be trying to help. Hence why he had to walk back almost the entire thing.

Strong, intelligent opposition serves a very important purpose, and I really hope that the Conservatives can get their heads out of their asses and become a functional party. Because this silliness is just that, silly, and it doesn't serve Canadians well at all.

techwiz

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2022, 06:54:21 AM »
Thanks @Malcat that was very insightful.   I had not met either Jean or Pierre in person, but have the same impression that Jean is more intelligent and thoughtful than Pierre who seems to be an jerk and loud mouth.  I agree there is not much hope for the Conservatives with all the in fighting and division. I wish the party could get rid of some of the more extreme view points they seem to copy from south of the border.  It would be nice to see all pollical parties to focus on real policies with meaningful debate and stop with the mud slinging and fear mongering. However, I don't think the general voters, politicians or media have the attention span or incentive to do so.   

scottish

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2022, 03:31:13 PM »
Thanks @Malcat that was very insightful.   I had not met either Jean or Pierre in person, but have the same impression that Jean is more intelligent and thoughtful than Pierre who seems to be an jerk and loud mouth.  I agree there is not much hope for the Conservatives with all the in fighting and division. I wish the party could get rid of some of the more extreme view points they seem to copy from south of the border.  It would be nice to see all pollical parties to focus on real policies with meaningful debate and stop with the mud slinging and fear mongering. However, I don't think the general voters, politicians or media have the attention span or incentive to do so.   

Yep.  For the new leader to succeed he will have to forcefully unify the party so they speak with a common voice.   Or at least some semblance of one.

I think that means booting a substantial number of people out of caucus and replacing them with the 'right' type of people, where 'right' depends on the leader.   I think O'toole would have been electable if he could have gotten the party under control and so would Charest.   O'toole came pretty close even with the occassional candidate proposing egregious and inflammatory policies.    OTOH I'm pretty sure PP isn't electable without some radical personality changes.


OrangePill

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2022, 04:32:40 PM »
Poillievre definitely got my attention with his criticism of the central bank of canada and especially of the development of CBDCs. Also I agree with his stance on Bitcoin. I felt early on that I would vote for him.

Itís unfortunate the he seemed to legitimize the convoy truckers which I donít agree with but could live with that. Itís the  whole stance on abortion and climate change of the conservative party which means I couldnít vote for them.

erp

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2022, 10:39:51 AM »
I definitely agree that the conservatives need to actually address climate change directly if they're going to stand a chance of forming government. There's room for some double-talk there ... I think their best bet would be to campaign on reversing/capping the carbon taxation for small emitters (ie. the gas tax) while also committing to maintaining the emissions pricing for large emitters (ie. industry). They could pitch it as giving industry certainty while looking out for the little guy - but it'd be ideologically easy to read and not in open defiance of well established science.

I have no idea if any leader could manage to unite the anti-abortion/religious/wexit/"freedom at all costs, but only for me" crowd without poisoning the party well though. We've seen in the US that the true believers eventually take control of the party, and start setting (bad) policy. If I were the conservative leader, I'd be tempted to pitch them all and say something to the extent of "we're looking to govern Canada for all Canadians, and if you're going to double down on refusing to compromise, then there's no place for you in this party". That'd drive a reasonable number of the base towards PPC, but (hopefully) would also allow a bunch of centre and centre-right folks to come back to the fold.

tl;dr - I want the cons to have real climate change policy, and to kick the true believer/social conservative at all costs segment to the curb. I don't see any leader really offering that, but Jean is closer than PP.

Malcat

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2022, 11:36:08 AM »
I definitely agree that the conservatives need to actually address climate change directly if they're going to stand a chance of forming government. There's room for some double-talk there ... I think their best bet would be to campaign on reversing/capping the carbon taxation for small emitters (ie. the gas tax) while also committing to maintaining the emissions pricing for large emitters (ie. industry). They could pitch it as giving industry certainty while looking out for the little guy - but it'd be ideologically easy to read and not in open defiance of well established science.

I have no idea if any leader could manage to unite the anti-abortion/religious/wexit/"freedom at all costs, but only for me" crowd without poisoning the party well though. We've seen in the US that the true believers eventually take control of the party, and start setting (bad) policy. If I were the conservative leader, I'd be tempted to pitch them all and say something to the extent of "we're looking to govern Canada for all Canadians, and if you're going to double down on refusing to compromise, then there's no place for you in this party". That'd drive a reasonable number of the base towards PPC, but (hopefully) would also allow a bunch of centre and centre-right folks to come back to the fold.

tl;dr - I want the cons to have real climate change policy, and to kick the true believer/social conservative at all costs segment to the curb. I don't see any leader really offering that, but Jean is closer than PP.

I've been hearing from insiders that this is the ugliest, most vicious, and most acrimonious leadership contest they've ever seen. Apparently staff from each side can't even be civil with one another. I'm hoping it creates a solid breaking point and the two factions stop trying to operate as one party because it just isn't working, and doesn't work for the country.

The CRAP alliance just doesn't work, IMO.

erp

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2022, 11:45:27 AM »
Fingers crossed that you're right. There's an enormous value in having a real conservative viewpoint to counterbalance left wing impulses ... but I haven't seen that here for a while.

Also, thank you very much for your contribution above - it's nice to have insight into the leader's characters.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2022, 12:29:36 PM »
Fingers crossed that you're right. There's an enormous value in having a real conservative viewpoint to counterbalance left wing impulses ... but I haven't seen that here for a while.

Also, thank you very much for your contribution above - it's nice to have insight into the leader's characters.

I think that the problem is combining fiscal conservatism with social conservatism.  They're not good bedfellows, and one doesn't compliment the other.  The social conservatives appear to pretty much rule the conservative party right now, which is really bad news for those interested in fiscal conservatism.

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2022, 12:29:55 PM »
Fingers crossed that you're right. There's an enormous value in having a real conservative viewpoint to counterbalance left wing impulses ... but I haven't seen that here for a while.

Also, thank you very much for your contribution above - it's nice to have insight into the leader's characters.

eh, from my perspective as someone who has circulated among government insiders for decades, I don't take the puppet show too seriously.

Do you read all of the departmental mandate letters? I find those are a somewhat more accurate representation of the motivations of any given government, although, because those are publicly available, there's still a good dose of PR and puppetry within them, but they're a much better reference than media coverage and official press statements.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2022, 12:54:32 PM »
Fingers crossed that you're right. There's an enormous value in having a real conservative viewpoint to counterbalance left wing impulses ... but I haven't seen that here for a while.

Also, thank you very much for your contribution above - it's nice to have insight into the leader's characters.

eh, from my perspective as someone who has circulated among government insiders for decades, I don't take the puppet show too seriously.

Do you read all of the departmental mandate letters? I find those are a somewhat more accurate representation of the motivations of any given government, although, because those are publicly available, there's still a good dose of PR and puppetry within them, but they're a much better reference than media coverage and official press statements.

I can't read the departmental mandates here in Ontario, because the Conservative government is fighting in court to try to be the first provincial government here make them secret.

Malcat

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2022, 12:56:24 PM »
Fingers crossed that you're right. There's an enormous value in having a real conservative viewpoint to counterbalance left wing impulses ... but I haven't seen that here for a while.

Also, thank you very much for your contribution above - it's nice to have insight into the leader's characters.

eh, from my perspective as someone who has circulated among government insiders for decades, I don't take the puppet show too seriously.

Do you read all of the departmental mandate letters? I find those are a somewhat more accurate representation of the motivations of any given government, although, because those are publicly available, there's still a good dose of PR and puppetry within them, but they're a much better reference than media coverage and official press statements.

I can't read the departmental mandates here in Ontario, because the Conservative government is fighting in court to try to be the first provincial government here make them secret.

Ford keepin' it classy as always. I'm sure I've mentioned he was the go-to drug dealer for my friends in highschool.

techwiz

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2022, 01:26:40 PM »
Ford keepin' it classy as always. I'm sure I've mentioned he was the go-to drug dealer for my friends in highschool.

Was that Rob or Doug?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2022, 05:23:57 PM »
Ford keepin' it classy as always. I'm sure I've mentioned he was the go-to drug dealer for my friends in highschool.

Was that Rob or Doug?

Maybe both?


GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2022, 06:51:57 PM »
Ford keepin' it classy as always. I'm sure I've mentioned he was the go-to drug dealer for my friends in highschool.

Was that Rob or Doug?

Maybe both?

Nah, it would have been all Doug.  Rob was an addict.  You don't trust a user like that to sling your crack.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2022, 08:50:45 PM »
Ford keepin' it classy as always. I'm sure I've mentioned he was the go-to drug dealer for my friends in highschool.

Was that Rob or Doug?

Maybe both?

Nah, it would have been all Doug.  Rob was an addict.  You don't trust a user like that to sling your crack.

You are in Toronto - how did either of them, with their reputations, ever manage to get chosen by a riding as a candidate?  Let alone get elected? And be party leader? 

I used to think Quebec politics was wild, but Ontario, staid Ontario, just shaking my head in disbelief.

Of course the CPC may have a rabble-rousing shit-slinger* for its next leader, so I guess sometimes anything goes.

* I do appreciate these forums, where I don't have to type sh*t-slinger.

Anyone have any info behind Peterborough and Jagmeet Singh?  I only just saw a mention someplace else.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2022, 07:44:08 AM »
Ford keepin' it classy as always. I'm sure I've mentioned he was the go-to drug dealer for my friends in highschool.

Was that Rob or Doug?

Maybe both?

Nah, it would have been all Doug.  Rob was an addict.  You don't trust a user like that to sling your crack.

You are in Toronto - how did either of them, with their reputations, ever manage to get chosen by a riding as a candidate?  Let alone get elected? And be party leader?

Rob was Donald Trump before Trump was a thing in US politics.

He was elected largely because of rage, distrust of the system, hatred of intelligence, and outright lies.  Perfect example would be his "subways subways subways!" rallying cry.  Rob promised everyone in Toronto a subway stop at their front door (because anything else is second class) and budgets be damned.  (He also promised to cut waste and reduce expenditures - but y'know . . . logic is not the strong suit of crackheads.)  And, being idiots, many in the city bought it.  It didn't matter that every expert in the field said it was a dumb idea . . . that actually helped galvanize our dumbass voters.  Must be the right thing to do if all those egg heads are uncomfortable!

So Ford got into power and thew out the paid for/under construction LRT network that was under construction across the city (at great financial cost for cancelling contracts).  Then decided to replace the six stop above ground Scarborough LRT (which was on it's last legs) with a three stop (or maybe four depending on which pipe dream you listen to) subway system that would cost 6x as much to build, and 5x as much in yearly operating costs, and serve less than half the people.

We're hoping to have shovels in the ground for this gigantic waste of money in another decade or so - assuming no delays.  Which there will be.

Net upshot is . . . all the people who were chanting "SUBWAYS SUBWAY SUBWAYS" have become awful quiet ever since electing our addict mayor and then watching him overdose to death.  And y'know . . . all those pipe dream subways going up in the cloud of crack smoke that inspired them.  But we're going to be stuck with their awful damned choices forever.

Watching the election of Ford here in Toronto is how I knew that Trump would be elected in the US when he started running.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2022, 10:04:40 AM »

Watching the election of Ford here in Toronto is how I knew that Trump would be elected in the US when he started running.

Oh. Wow.

So how do all the GTA Ford voters from the last election feel this time?  I'm interested to see how the present Conservative MPPS in Ottawa do after Ford threw us under the bus - well, under the semis.

GuitarStv

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2022, 11:11:44 AM »

Watching the election of Ford here in Toronto is how I knew that Trump would be elected in the US when he started running.

Oh. Wow.

So how do all the GTA Ford voters from the last election feel this time?  I'm interested to see how the present Conservative MPPS in Ottawa do after Ford threw us under the bus - well, under the semis.

Most of them fully supported and condoned the trucker thing, and were quite upset that Ford II instituted mask mandates at all for this silly imaginary plandemic.

FrugalToque

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2022, 12:01:22 PM »
I am, on a personal level, a very conservative person.  I retired with quite a bit more money than I needed, I'm careful with my spending, I always give myself extra time when travelling because I hate when I'm late.

That said, I haven't seen a Conservative or Progressive Conservative candidate I could vote for in several decades.  So I'm just watching the debates and recaps in horror as they cozy up to the Racist-led Convoy someone put a Truck-shaped Duvet Cover over (Is Pat King out on bail?  Where is holocaust denier Chris Skye?) or dance around their support for anti-abortionism.

I only met Poilievre once.  He came to work by invitation of our new CEO, who hadn't realized the rest of the company wasn't Conservative just because we make good coin.  He came across as a smarmy used car salesman, although he looked good standing next to Andrew Scheer (who looked incredibly dumb in person and ran off before questions could be asked).

His attitude toward the "Trucker" or "Freedom" convoy, that mess of angry, near-violent ignorance is basically unacceptable:
https://www.thestar.com/pe/news/provincial-election/2022/05/11/calls-for-his-death-were-hurled-at-singh-on-top-of-traitor-chants-by-protesters-during-stop-in-peterborough.html?rf&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMedia&utm_campaign=QueensPark&utm_content=hurledatsingh&fbclid=IwAR3POg_FaAa97DgxKMmqXY58av7m1Ndwf8ZGF6MX1Wv9TchUVIA457Mr5Gs
These people need to be educated on
a) how our democracy works
b) what the outcome of the last election was
c) how health measures are 95%-99% decided by PROVINCIAL governments and they're yelling their insults at the wrong layer of government.
(If you're American and reading this? Learn about Canada before you comment.  The leader of the Province of Ontario is Premier Ford, a Conservative, and he created dozens more regulations and closures than the feds ever did)

These convoy people are ignorant and Pierre here is shovelling coal into their Furnaces of Ignorance to score a few points in the polls.

I hope they have the brains to pick Charest, although I think the right wing social regressives would break at that point.  They already hated O'Toole for trying to drag them into the 21st century.  They won't like Charest.

Toque.

FrugalToque

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2022, 12:03:21 PM »

Watching the election of Ford here in Toronto is how I knew that Trump would be elected in the US when he started running.

Oh. Wow.

So how do all the GTA Ford voters from the last election feel this time?  I'm interested to see how the present Conservative MPPS in Ottawa do after Ford threw us under the bus - well, under the semis.

Most of them fully supported and condoned the trucker thing, and were quite upset that Ford II instituted mask mandates at all for this silly imaginary plandemic.

That's what told me that the "Convoy" people were full of crap.
I even talked to some of them:
"Why do you have so man 'fuck Trudeau' signs and no 'fuck Ford' signs?  Don't you know that Conservative Doug Ford made waaaaay more regulations than Trudeau?"
"Uh, yeah, we'll get to Ford.  Don't you worry."
Never did 'get to Ford', did they?  He's Conservative after all.

Hypocrites.

daverobev

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2022, 02:40:10 PM »
That's what I find most depressing about politics/humanity generally... the fact that the bullshit works. People support Trump. *Women* support Trump, after his... comments... I honestly thought he was sunk. Christians support Trump in overwhelming numbers.

Who the hell would vote for Doug Ford? Who would vote for Cheryl Gallant? Trudeau - yeah, he over promised and under delivered. He did all sorts of stupid things. The thing with the Attorney General was, from what I remember, very very suspect. He should have lost to a competent opposition.

But competent oppositions just don't seem to be available. Not in Canada. Barely in the US, for the moment. Not in the UK.

How I'd love to go back to when Tony Blair was in charge in the UK... and I hated the guy at the time. That was before my time in Canada, so I wasn't following Canadian politics at that point.

You know, people with at least some integrity. Maybe. Some idea that lying is bad. That spouting absolute nonsense doesn't get you anywhere? That the electorate is intelligent enough to understand nuance...?? No maybe I'm wrong, maybe it never happened.

We are such a disappointment.

scottish

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2022, 03:26:33 PM »
There's still time to join the party and vote in the leadership race.   Only $15, and about as entertaining as a movie...


RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2022, 08:25:52 PM »
You know, I didn't like Mulroney, but he looks like a shining star compared to his successors.  I actually did vote PC once, but for an amazing Red Tory, Flora MacDonald.  Who could be in her riding and not vote for her?  Looking back the only time I voted Conservative I was in university.  I am so much more left now.    ;-)  Sp much for getting more conservative as one gets older.

So PP wants to get more interfering in government and replace the Governor of the Bank of Canada?  The guy who likes crypto currency (which listening to today's news just tanked).  PP I mean, not the Governor of the BoC.  Why doesn't PP just go and challenge Bernier for leader of the PPC?  The two are 2 peas in a pod.

On a more long-term note, the socially conservative wing and the financially conservative wing have less in common than the Liberals and the NDP.  I'm amazed they have stayed together this long.

And from today's news, what do any of the candidates think of the Teamsters trying to unionize Amazon warehouses?  Apparently Amazon has about twice the number of warehouse workplace accidents as the industry average.  Not a good look.


afulldeck

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2022, 03:30:09 PM »
Who ever the Conservative party chooses, I will vote Conservative. The liberals need to be eviscerated. Liberals have been a disaster for this county:
  • they attacked Small Businesses (And called them all cheats- they equated a business owner to an employee and they have no clue what it take to make a business work)
  • On the world stage (the globe finds JT a clown)
  • foreign affairs has been a mess
  • Military status a mess - procurement worse
  • Massive increases in bureaucracy
  • Constant virtual signalling while being a hypocrite (Blackface, Aga Khan Scandal, SNC Lavalin, WE)
  • The financial state they have left this country in is abysmal


And it really offends me whenever he gets caught and he says "...We've all learn a lesson..."

scottish

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2022, 07:59:36 PM »
Who ever the Conservative party chooses, I will vote Conservative. The liberals need to be eviscerated. Liberals have been a disaster for this county:
  • they attacked Small Businesses (And called them all cheats- they equated a business owner to an employee and they have no clue what it take to make a business work)
  • On the world stage (the globe finds JT a clown)
  • foreign affairs has been a mess
  • Military status a mess - procurement worse
  • Massive increases in bureaucracy
  • Constant virtual signalling while being a hypocrite (Blackface, Aga Khan Scandal, SNC Lavalin, WE)
  • The financial state they have left this country in is abysmal


And it really offends me whenever he gets caught and he says "...We've all learn a lesson..."

Haha, yes, we all want him to say  "I've learned a lesson...".    It feels as if he imagines himself the teacher, and we are the students, privileged to learn from his wisdom.   Kathleen Wynne was like this as well.   Maybe he could learn a lesson from the 2018 provincial election!

Nonetheless many politicians are worse than the liberals.   I want to wind up with some conservatives who are better...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2022, 08:59:53 PM »
Who ever the Conservative party chooses, I will vote Conservative. The liberals need to be eviscerated. Liberals have been a disaster for this county:
  • they attacked Small Businesses (And called them all cheats- they equated a business owner to an employee and they have no clue what it take to make a business work)
  • On the world stage (the globe finds JT a clown)
  • foreign affairs has been a mess
  • Military status a mess - procurement worse
  • Massive increases in bureaucracy
  • Constant virtual signalling while being a hypocrite (Blackface, Aga Khan Scandal, SNC Lavalin, WE)
  • The financial state they have left this country in is abysmal


And it really offends me whenever he gets caught and he says "...We've all learn a lesson..."

Haha, yes, we all want him to say  "I've learned a lesson...".    It feels as if he imagines himself the teacher, and we are the students, privileged to learn from his wisdom.   Kathleen Wynne was like this as well.   Maybe he could learn a lesson from the 2018 provincial election!

Nonetheless many politicians are worse than the liberals.   I want to wind up with some conservatives who are better...

I had hopes (faint but there) for Erin O'Toole.  His caucus killed him.  The CPC caucus has the power to over-ride the choice of all the members who choose a leader at a leadership convention.  Not a very democratic operating method.  I can't help but wonder what the GTA voters who put Ford in and might have voted Conservative next election will do now.  It sucks that the GTA has such a high population that they have a lot of ridings concentrated in such a small area, but that is rep by pop.

Right now we basically have Reform types and old Conservative types running - which faction wins will determine the future of the party.  If they go Reform now, they are competing with Bernier.  If they go more Conservative, they have their own place.  There is no-one who is fiscally conservative and socially liberal, which is where I would like to be able to vote.   The Greens were sort of, a while ago, but right now they are in disarray.

But fiscally conservative seems like a pipe dream - these days governments of all stripes seem to like spending money.  They just differ on where to spend it.  So if they are going to spend my tax money anyway, I would like to approve of where it is going. 

daverobev

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Re: Conservative party leadership race
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2022, 05:57:56 AM »
I wish we could start a fiscally conservative but otherwise modern party, with the general ideas of

1. If it ain't broke don't fix it (ie no new 'programs' that just shuffle money around)
2. Try to cut red tape/put power to make decisions with the people who have the knowledge (with oversight where necessary of course)
3. Simplification. The Canadian tax system for normal people is a joke. Sorry, how many lines need completing to declare 3 things?

So sad to me that parties - all of them - promise so much and deliver so little.

I remember someone on here who used to be military saying they spent hundreds of dollars per chair through procurement for something you could get for $50 from Staples. The waste is insane. Of course that money goes back into the economy but god...

And hey, being able to talk to the CRA would be nice, when you need to. I reckon they should stagger the financial year by province - it wouldn't make that much difference but it would spread the workload.