Author Topic: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?  (Read 1573 times)

frugalcanuck

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Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« on: October 23, 2022, 10:50:42 AM »
I was just wondering if anyone here is following the Rouleau Commission (The Public Order Emergency Commission)?  I have been following it a little bit but there is so much content its hard to keep up. 
Everything in it so far seems to be showing how the media was manipulating people into being afraid and how poorly governments (only provincial and municipal so far) had lost all sense of logic and reason.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2022, 02:22:31 PM »
I was just wondering if anyone here is following the Rouleau Commission (The Public Order Emergency Commission)?  I have been following it a little bit but there is so much content its hard to keep up. 
Everything in it so far seems to be showing how the media was manipulating people into being afraid and how poorly governments (only provincial and municipal so far) had lost all sense of logic and reason.

No but I plan to.  It was definitely not a normal Ottawa protest, and Ottawa gets lots of them.  I was living in Ottawa at the time.

Certainly Ottawa residents would agree that our provincial government handled it poorly, if ignoring something for weeks is included in handling something poorly.  We certainly felt abandoned by our provincial government.

Not quite sure what you mean by the media manipulating people.  My daughter's close friend is an Ottawa EMT and she had lots of firsthand stories that were not good.  I lived close to the Coventry resupply site at the time and that was a very strange situation, they way they took over a parking lot.

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2022, 04:57:09 AM »
I was just wondering if anyone here is following the Rouleau Commission (The Public Order Emergency Commission)?  I have been following it a little bit but there is so much content its hard to keep up. 
Everything in it so far seems to be showing how the media was manipulating people into being afraid and how poorly governments (only provincial and municipal so far) had lost all sense of logic and reason.

No but I plan to.  It was definitely not a normal Ottawa protest, and Ottawa gets lots of them.  I was living in Ottawa at the time.

Certainly Ottawa residents would agree that our provincial government handled it poorly, if ignoring something for weeks is included in handling something poorly.  We certainly felt abandoned by our provincial government.

Not quite sure what you mean by the media manipulating people.  My daughter's close friend is an Ottawa EMT and she had lots of firsthand stories that were not good.  I lived close to the Coventry resupply site at the time and that was a very strange situation, they way they took over a parking lot.

Well it turns out crime was down 90% during the three weeks and the media was portraying the exact opposite.  The Ottawa people who were already questioned were talking about all the "violence" that took place during the protest, when cross examined we found they changed the definition of "violence" to include the feeling of being afraid.  When asked for evidence of and violence or assaults no one was able to give any.  People like Jim Watson said he was getting his information about the protest from the media.  Mckenney said she does not believe the police investigation that found the fire that was in the lobby of an apartment building had nothing to do with the protest.  The media was the one spreading that misinformation.  It's still early in the commission so much can change, but this is looking really bad for the mainstream media.

With the Coventry site, it was shown that the truckers were told to park there by the police in an agreement that was made to keep most of the trucks away from downtown. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2022, 09:27:52 AM »

With the Coventry site, it was shown that the truckers were told to park there by the police in an agreement that was made to keep most of the trucks away from downtown.

The Coventry site was overflow parking for a protest that was expected to last the weekend (i.e. maximum 3 days), not 3 weeks.  I drove by it regularly and it was not just overflow parking, it was a long term campground and resupply depot.

Most of the random violence at the protest was early, and then they realized it was giving them bad press.  Plus people adjusted to their presence.  But if you want to say there was no violence because people who were potential targets changed their lives to avoid them, that is true.  People living in the area moved out.  Hotel staff who tried to get guests (protesters not living on-site) to wear masks gave up because yes, they were threatened. 

I mean, I have never been mugged.  But I try to avoid situations where that is likely.  Does that mean that there are no muggers?

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2022, 05:48:35 AM »

With the Coventry site, it was shown that the truckers were told to park there by the police in an agreement that was made to keep most of the trucks away from downtown.

The Coventry site was overflow parking for a protest that was expected to last the weekend (i.e. maximum 3 days), not 3 weeks.  I drove by it regularly and it was not just overflow parking, it was a long term campground and resupply depot.

This was directly talked about in the commission.  All the information showed they were staying for a minimum of 30 days.  All intelligence showed that.  A few people in charge dismissed all that information because they didn't believe it.  No one should have thought they would be gone after the weekend.  Protesters drove from all over Canada. Many drove for 5 or more days.  Over 1000 hotel rooms were booked for over 30 days.  This information was all shown to be known by those in charge.

[/quote]
Most of the random violence at the protest was early, and then they realized it was giving them bad press.  Plus people adjusted to their presence.  But if you want to say there was no violence because people who were potential targets changed their lives to avoid them, that is true.  People living in the area moved out.  Hotel staff who tried to get guests (protesters not living on-site) to wear masks gave up because yes, they were threatened. 

I mean, I have never been mugged.  But I try to avoid situations where that is likely.  Does that mean that there are no muggers?
[/quote]

If there was any violence I would expect there to be evidence or a record of the violence.  In the commission whenever anyone said there was any violence, they were asked about it.  They would then they back track and either create a new definition for the word "violence" or say they heard about violence but have no record of it and never personally saw any. 

All of this is coming out in the commission. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2022, 06:05:49 AM »
I know an ambulance and an EMT (a  POC) were attacked early on.  After that only large white EMTs were stationed with the protest, small and/or POC were stationed elsewhere.  Mostly it was harassment, intimidation and the godawful noise.  I personally know people living in the area who moved out temporarily.

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2022, 01:44:59 PM »
You should see if they or anyone else that was attacked is going to be a witness in the commission.  They seem to not know of anyone who was actually attacked or experienced any violence.  I would also say if you know someone who had their face mask ripped off to have them give a report.  I personally would call that an assault.  A good friend of mine, who I attended the protest with on two occasions, wore a face mask the whole time and I never saw anyone harass him or question him about it.  Small sample but it was my experience.  And that wasn't the first weekend. 

rocketpj

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2022, 08:41:04 PM »
My sister lived in the area and witnessed violence multiple times, as well as being forced to listen to a bunch of morons honking their horns all day and night for weeks.  My friend's 14 year old daughters were followed for blocks and shouted at by big tough truckers (otherwise known as assholes) because they had worn masks in Rideau Mall.  Her daughter's friend was punched in the face in the same incident.

They have no interest in testifying to the commission because they are children and female, and their identities would become public knowledge for every mouthbreathing donkey out there.  Given the history of doxxing and targeted hostility by the far right, I'm certainly not going to tell them they are wrong.

I haven't been watching the hearings because I learned all I needed to from people who were there and directly victimized by some (not all) of the so-called 'truckers'.  Whatever happens in the inquiry is beside the point for me.  Fuck those guys.


RetiredAt63

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2022, 06:59:21 AM »
My sister lived in the area and witnessed violence multiple times, as well as being forced to listen to a bunch of morons honking their horns all day and night for weeks.  My friend's 14 year old daughters were followed for blocks and shouted at by big tough truckers (otherwise known as assholes) because they had worn masks in Rideau Mall.  Her daughter's friend was punched in the face in the same incident.

They have no interest in testifying to the commission because they are children and female, and their identities would become public knowledge for every mouthbreathing donkey out there.  Given the history of doxxing and targeted hostility by the far right, I'm certainly not going to tell them they are wrong.

I haven't been watching the hearings because I learned all I needed to from people who were there and directly victimized by some (not all) of the so-called 'truckers'.  Whatever happens in the inquiry is beside the point for me.  Fuck those guys.


This.

What I want to learn from the hearings is what went wrong at the local and provincial levels.  Because things obviously did.

And this was not seen locally as a protest, Ottawa gets lots and lots of protests.  This was an occupation.

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2022, 05:57:26 AM »
My sister lived in the area and witnessed violence multiple times, as well as being forced to listen to a bunch of morons honking their horns all day and night for weeks.  My friend's 14 year old daughters were followed for blocks and shouted at by big tough truckers (otherwise known as assholes) because they had worn masks in Rideau Mall.  Her daughter's friend was punched in the face in the same incident.


That's pretty crazy and there should be charges laid about that.  Punching someone in the face is a crime and should be reported. 



This.

What I want to learn from the hearings is what went wrong at the local and provincial levels.  Because things obviously did.

And this was not seen locally as a protest, Ottawa gets lots and lots of protests.  This was an occupation.

I still see it as a protest, a really big one, national in scale, but also see the occupation side of things.  I went down to protest with thousands of others doing just the same thing.  I had never been to a protest before and it was the same for nearly everyone I talked to down there. 

rocketpj

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2022, 01:21:21 PM »
Quote

That's pretty crazy and there should be charges laid about that.  Punching someone in the face is a crime and should be reported. 

Looking around the internet at the various extreme right websites and their willingness to harass, torment and physically threaten people they see as 'crisis actors' or 'fake victims' can you perhaps understand why a 15 year old girl might not want to file a legal complaint?  Especially since it wasn't clear then or now just where the Ottawa police stood on the issue at hand?

I'm talking of course about the exact same right wing and extremist websites that were all-in on supporting the so-called 'trucker' convoy.

Sure, there were some people there who were just run-of-the-mill scientific illiterates or wanted to thumb their nose at Trudeau.  So what?  The other guys were there too.  If you are on one side of an issue and you notice there are white supremacists and violent extremists on your side, you should possibly reconsider your position.



GuitarStv

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2022, 02:14:35 PM »
To anyone who supports the truckers in Ottawa, I encourage you to please post your home address in this thread.  I will personally arrange for an an air horn to be blared at the end of your driveway 24/7 in protest of your views, and in order to help you change them.  I can only assume that you will welcome the chance to participate so personally in helping me exercise my freedom of speech in the same way that the people you support did.  I forward to receiving your personal information posthaste.

Unless of course you're not really interested in having your personal life negatively impacted?

AJDZee

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2022, 12:45:47 PM »
To anyone who supports the truckers in Ottawa, I encourage you to please post your home address in this thread.  I will personally arrange for an an air horn to be blared at the end of your driveway 24/7 in protest of your views, and in order to help you change them.  I can only assume that you will welcome the chance to participate so personally in helping me exercise my freedom of speech in the same way that the people you support did.  I forward to receiving your personal information posthaste.

Unless of course you're not really interested in having your personal life negatively impacted?

LOL well said. I love hearing the argument crying about how 'the government took unprecedented action against its citizens wahh wahh' while conveniently leaving out the part of these 'protesters' took unprecedented action against our capital city.

GuitarStv

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2022, 01:01:42 PM »
To anyone who supports the truckers in Ottawa, I encourage you to please post your home address in this thread.  I will personally arrange for an an air horn to be blared at the end of your driveway 24/7 in protest of your views, and in order to help you change them.  I can only assume that you will welcome the chance to participate so personally in helping me exercise my freedom of speech in the same way that the people you support did.  I forward to receiving your personal information posthaste.

Unless of course you're not really interested in having your personal life negatively impacted?

LOL well said. I love hearing the argument crying about how 'the government took unprecedented action against its citizens wahh wahh' while conveniently leaving out the part of these 'protesters' took unprecedented action against our capital city.

At the end of the day, this convoy was filled with people who were causing very real stress and disruption to the lives of many thousands.  And they felt that it should be OK to use their numbers to force all of the people who were hurt into submission.

That's not how a democracy works.

Pissed about what the government is doing and you want to protest?  Cool.  I can respect that and support you in doing it.  But when you start hurting others, you need to stop.  And if you refuse to leave after being given ample time and opportunity to do so, you need to be removed.  Your rights to protest angrily don't trump the rights of thousands of others to live their life peacefully.

rocketpj

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2022, 07:57:44 PM »
retarded. i lost my job at the hospital because of V axe mandates. my wifes ICU dept is literally in crisis mode because of all the nurses leaving either from the jabs or the unappreciative treatment. Clown world.

You could have got the jab.  You chose not to.  Fine with me, it's your life to waste.  But choices have consequences.

The funny part is that people getting the jab or not had little to do with the so-called trucker convoy.  That was all about a dumbass antidemocratic movement that thought everyone had to agree with them.  Spoiler, we didn't.

GuitarStv

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2022, 07:42:32 AM »
retarded. i lost my job at the hospital because of V axe mandates. my wifes ICU dept is literally in crisis mode because of all the nurses leaving either from the jabs or the unappreciative treatment. Clown world.

You could have got the jab.  You chose not to.  Fine with me, it's your life to waste.  But choices have consequences.

The funny part is that people getting the jab or not had little to do with the so-called trucker convoy.  That was all about a dumbass antidemocratic movement that thought everyone had to agree with them.  Spoiler, we didn't.

Yeah.  I have to agree.

gliavas, most hospitals have rules about washing hands at work too.  It's a minimum requirement in effect because it has been proven to protect patients.  If you got fired for choosing not to wash your hands, you wouldn't have anyone to blame but yourself.  You willfully refuse to meet the minimum requirement for a job, you shouldn't be doing the job - because you're putting the people you're supposed to help at risk.

Covid vaccination reduces the chance that an employee will get sick, and reduces the window that the employee is infectious if they do get sick.  That's a pretty significant health benefit to anyone who interacts with you at the hospital.  The goal of most hospitals is to keep their patients healthy, and vaccination is a sensible path to do that.  It makes sense that it's a minimum requirement for doing the job.

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2022, 05:34:12 AM »
retarded. i lost my job at the hospital because of V axe mandates. my wifes ICU dept is literally in crisis mode because of all the nurses leaving either from the jabs or the unappreciative treatment. Clown world.

You could have got the jab.  You chose not to.  Fine with me, it's your life to waste.  But choices have consequences.

Just like how obese people represent over 90% of those in hospital for covid.

Did you blame those people who the Germans rounded up in WWII for not leaving Germany?  Your argument is horrible.  There are consequences to every choice.  The mandates were imposed, not for personal health reasons, but to save our health care system.  Then we force doctors and nurses to take an experimental medical procedure or loose their jobs. 
My family doctor team had 7 doctors on staff before the mandates... after the mandates there are 2 left. 


[MOD NOTE: one warning. You will not, on this forum, compare a temporary travel limitation for the unvaccinated to the plight of Jewish people during the Holocaust.
Forum Rule #6:

As an example, it not appropriate to compare rape, domestic assault, or genocide to unfair business practices that result in being overcharged for a service.
]

« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 04:18:10 AM by FrugalToque »

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2022, 05:35:45 AM »
There seems to be a lot of hate in this thread. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2022, 07:22:06 AM »
retarded. i lost my job at the hospital because of V axe mandates. my wifes ICU dept is literally in crisis mode because of all the nurses leaving either from the jabs or the unappreciative treatment. Clown world.

You could have got the jab.  You chose not to.  Fine with me, it's your life to waste.  But choices have consequences.

Just like how obese people represent over 90% of those in hospital for covid.

Can you source this statistic?  Obesity is certainly a factor that increases risk with covid, but I haven't read anything about it being anywhere near that significant.


Did you blame those people who the Germans rounded up in WWII for not leaving Germany?

There was no vaccine Auschwitz.  There was no vaccine-related confiscation of land/homes.  There was no vaccine-related attempt to build a master race through eugenics.  There were no unvaccinated people beaten to death, starved, and murdered.  Cattle cars packed with the unvaccinated did not cross our country.

I'd strongly encourage you to read a little about the Second World War before making further comments demonstrating ignorance.

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2022, 04:19:23 AM »
retarded. i lost my job at the hospital because of V axe mandates. my wifes ICU dept is literally in crisis mode because of all the nurses leaving either from the jabs or the unappreciative treatment. Clown world.

You could have got the jab.  You chose not to.  Fine with me, it's your life to waste.  But choices have consequences.

Just like how obese people represent over 90% of those in hospital for covid.

Can you source this statistic?  Obesity is certainly a factor that increases risk with covid, but I haven't read anything about it being anywhere near that significant.


Did you blame those people who the Germans rounded up in WWII for not leaving Germany?

There was no vaccine Auschwitz.  There was no vaccine-related confiscation of land/homes.  There was no vaccine-related attempt to build a master race through eugenics.  There were no unvaccinated people beaten to death, starved, and murdered.  Cattle cars packed with the unvaccinated did not cross our country.

I'd strongly encourage you to read a little about the Second World War before making further comments demonstrating ignorance.

I do not remember where I saw the over 90% study, and it was Canadian, but after a quick google, here is a US one that shows 78%.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

I do know a little about the second world war and have read about it, but I am no way an expert.  However, that was not the point of the argument.  I never said there were vaccine concentration camps here in Canada (They call them detention facilities). I did not mention peoples homes and land were confiscated, but there were bank accounts frozen because of protests against mandates.  I did not mention or compare anything about the plight of the unvaccinated to the plight of any other discriminated groups of people.

If you would like to read more about it this, and I suggest you should, this was a good article. https://susandunham.medium.com/what-we-learned-from-hating-the-unvaccinated-fc428fa0732c

My point was if you apply rocktpj's argument to anything and everything then it will quickly lead down a very dark path.

Who gave the employers, or government the authority to mandate any medical procedure on any individual?  When did employers and governments get the power to mandate medical procedures? How did they get this power to mandate medical procedures?  I would also like to know the why, but I have a feeling we will never know the true story behind it.


Free speech has consequences.  You sometimes hear things you do not like.  You combat this with more intelligent speech.
Medical freedom has consequences.  You sometimes have a population that grows obese and unhealthy.  Let them.

And GuitarStv, instead of "attacking" the individual making the argument, try "attacking" the argument instead.  It creates a better society.

GuitarStv

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2022, 08:02:46 AM »
retarded. i lost my job at the hospital because of V axe mandates. my wifes ICU dept is literally in crisis mode because of all the nurses leaving either from the jabs or the unappreciative treatment. Clown world.

You could have got the jab.  You chose not to.  Fine with me, it's your life to waste.  But choices have consequences.

Just like how obese people represent over 90% of those in hospital for covid.

Can you source this statistic?  Obesity is certainly a factor that increases risk with covid, but I haven't read anything about it being anywhere near that significant.

I do not remember where I saw the over 90% study, and it was Canadian, but after a quick google, here is a US one that shows 78%.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughly-78percent-of-people-hospitalized-were-overweight-or-obese.html

OK, so the "over 90%" figure is hyperbole.  That makes sense.

The CDC says that obesity triples the likelihood of hospitalization and death https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html, which is quite significant and seems (roughly) in line with the news article from 2021 that you linked.


Did you blame those people who the Germans rounded up in WWII for not leaving Germany?

There was no vaccine Auschwitz.  There was no vaccine-related confiscation of land/homes.  There was no vaccine-related attempt to build a master race through eugenics.  There were no unvaccinated people beaten to death, starved, and murdered.  Cattle cars packed with the unvaccinated did not cross our country.

I'd strongly encourage you to read a little about the Second World War before making further comments demonstrating ignorance.

I do know a little about the second world war and have read about it, but I am no way an expert.  However, that was not the point of the argument.  I never said there were vaccine concentration camps here in Canada (They call them detention facilities). I did not mention peoples homes and land were confiscated, but there were bank accounts frozen because of protests against mandates.  I did not mention or compare anything about the plight of the unvaccinated to the plight of any other discriminated groups of people.[/quote]

Maybe don't compare a voluntary vaccination with the Holocaust then.  More hyperbole?


I never said there were vaccine concentration camps here in Canada (They call them detention facilities).

Canadian detention facilities are in no way similar to Nazi concentration camps.  Again, I am forced to ask you to read a little about the Second World War if you're going to continue to make comparisons to it.  You are minimizing the torture and murder of hundreds of thousands by continuing to make these ridiculous comments.

Again, I am forced to assume in good faith that this is done through ignorance rather than intentional malice.  Please educate yourself about the things you're discussing.


If you would like to read more about it this, and I suggest you should, this was a good article. https://susandunham.medium.com/what-we-learned-from-hating-the-unvaccinated-fc428fa0732c

Certainly reads as a silly article.

"It was not through quiet compliance that we avoided endless domination by pharmaceutical companies and medical checkpoints at every doorway. It was thanks to the people we tried to tear down." is a particularly ridiculous line.  Nobody ever suggested medical checkpoints at every doorway . . . and there were never plans to give pharmaceutical companies domination over anyone.  It was thanks to the unvaccinated that we had more death - both directly due to covid and indirectly due to hospitals that were overrun.

I didn't (and don't) hate the unvaccinated.  They have a problem that they aren't able to overcome.  Do you hate someone who blows all their money on booze rather than saving for retirement?  Their bad decision is their bad decision to make.  But just as the guy with 11 DUIs shouldn't be driving city buses around town, the nurse who voluntarily chooses to not to vaccinate shouldn't be around patients in a hospital.  Nothing to do with hate, if your actions prove that you're unfit for a job you shouldn't be doing that job.


My point was if you apply rocktpj's argument to anything and everything then it will quickly lead down a very dark path.

It should be reasonably simple to say that without bringing up poor comparisons to the Holocaust.


Who gave the employers, or government the authority to mandate any medical procedure on any individual?  When did employers and governments get the power to mandate medical procedures? How did they get this power to mandate medical procedures?  I would also like to know the why, but I have a feeling we will never know the true story behind it.

That's certainly a shadowy conspiracy ridden world-view!

Given that there are multiple lawsuits in Canadian courts right now regarding government vaccine mandates and dismissal of employees for the same, it is certain that we will know exactly what powers employers and the government have in this area in a few years at most.

There are valid questions in this area.  We live in a system of government and order, checks and balances.  It's not always as immediate as we would like, but generally the system works well to define these problems and correct oversteps that occur.


Free speech has consequences.  You sometimes hear things you do not like.  You combat this with more intelligent speech.
Medical freedom has consequences.  You sometimes have a population that grows obese and unhealthy.  Let them.

Sure, I agree with that.


And GuitarStv, instead of "attacking" the individual making the argument, try "attacking" the argument instead.  It creates a better society.

I apologize if you felt personally attacked when I pointed out your ignorance in comparing the Holocaust to treatment of people who weren't vaccinated in Canada.  If you would care to stop demonstrating it, I will certainly desist in pointing it out.

frugalcanuck

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2022, 07:44:36 PM »
Should we make a new thread for covid discussion?   I intended for this to be more about the Rouleau Commission.


[Mod Note: Then amend your comment about WW2 Germany]
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 03:24:12 AM by FrugalToque »

scottish

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2022, 01:45:08 PM »
The PM and cabinet are supposed to testify next week, correct?   

So far I haven't found any of the testimony particularly surprising, only new in the details.   I wonder what the privy council has to say for itself, though.

What is the consequence of the inquiry if use of the act was found to be unjustified?    Is it just some form of censure, or is something more substantial involved?

srrb

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2022, 11:15:04 PM »
I can't tell if your reply is a joke or not? Seems to hit every talking point except lizard people and pizzagate.

Edited to add I think the rant I responded to last night has been removed.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 09:26:04 AM by srrb »

FrugalToque

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2022, 03:29:45 AM »
This is an interesting thread, and yes, I have been following the commission since I'm all retired now and have some time.

1) The impression is that the Ottawa Police force failed by allowing the truckers to plant themselves on Wellington and fortify.
The testimony of Fed Minister Bill Blair, CSIS, OPP and others all points to the ignoring of intelligence on this point as the determinative difference between the Ottawa protest disaster and the attempts in Toronto and Quebec.
They ignored intelligence on how long the truckers were travelling and how long they intended to stay, despite knowing the distances and rx'ing warnings from hotel owners about long stays being booked.

2) "Crime" was not "down". Rather, Ottawa Police were *not*, by their own testimony, enforcing laws. They reported being "swarmed" when trying to enforce laws. People were being harassed for wearing masks. Convoyers assaulted a homeless man and didn't get arrested. They screamed threats at restaurant workers without being charged.  Ottawa police tweeted out to residents something like, "Don't wear masks downtown, it upsets them". It is not fair to say "Crime was down" when it really was, "Police are overworked trying to keep downtown under control and not enforcing laws."

3) The Convoy people were very proud of themselves for "wake up calls" of truck horns to punish people of Ottawa. They were recorded laughing at how "People in Ottawa haven't slept for 10 days".  That's not "media exaggeration". That's actual, recorded behaviour. The white supremacists were out, telling us the whole thing will "end in bullets", and no conspiracy theory about false flag swastikas will ever change that fact.  Pat King, Mr. "The White Anglo-Saxon race has superior bloodlines" ended up in jail and eventually, probably, prison if he isn't already.

4) Downtown was miserable for people living there.  The whole area smelled like diesel fumes. A daycare had to close because the teachers couldn't take the fumes and they couldn't take the harassment from convoyers if they went outside with their children while wearing masks.  Ottawa residents finally had enough of these assholes and blockaded more of them from entering the city

5) After three weeks of this bullshit, one attempt to get the Governor General to overthrow the government, some swastikas and rebel flags and general noise and assholery, we found that the only way to remove this maliciously noisy mob from our downtown was to have the gov't invoke the Emergencies Act, if only to tell the various police forces to do their jobs and remove the illegal occupation of our streets.

Also, it's not Auschwitz. I am aware there were some quoted convoyers who said things like, "Canada is like 1930s Germany, and we unvaxxed are like the Jews".  Those people are absolutely full of shit.  No one rounded them up.  They just had to spend a few months or a year not using planes and trains to get around so they wouldn't spread disease during a pandemic.

Most recently, if you really want to discuss the Commission, the convoy lawyer humiliated himself by espousing a conspiracy theory that the Prime Minister hired the swastika-flag guy as a false flag to make the convoy look bad. As if. The convoy already had Pat King and company inside it, making them look as racist and awful as anyone could ask for.

Toque.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 04:13:28 AM by FrugalToque »

FrugalToque

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2022, 04:11:48 AM »
The PM and cabinet are supposed to testify next week, correct?   

So far I haven't found any of the testimony particularly surprising, only new in the details.   I wonder what the privy council has to say for itself, though.

What is the consequence of the inquiry if use of the act was found to be unjustified?    Is it just some form of censure, or is something more substantial involved?

The surprises, for me:

1) The intel provided to the Ottawa Police clearly showed that the convoy planned to stay. They should have used this to make sure they didn't dig in on Wellington and plant their trucks. I never realized how clear the intel was.

2) CSIS supported using the Emerg Act.  Even though the Emerg Act used CSIS's defn's of "national security threat", the threshold for "enough of a threat for CSIS to investigate this person" is different from "enough of a threat to constitute a public order emergency". So the head of CSIS said, "Yeah, while no particular person needed investigation, we supported the use of the Emerg. Act because there are other concerns in this country besides our need to investigate people"

3) The convoy people are surprisingly open, at least about their misogyny, during their testimony.  I thought they would hide that crap, but there's Bouder (sp?) proud of calling the PM "Justine" to feminize his name, just to show what kind of an "alpha male, trucker kind of guy" he is.  What a douche.

4) Wow, the conspiracy theories.

As for what the commission will find?

Most likely, there will be a series of recommendations to prevent this from happening again, namely about intelligence handling, police action against early fortification by protestors.  Most of the recs will not be too important, as Ottawa and other police forces have already learned what to do. For example, every time these people have tried to come back to Ottawa, the police are waiting.  The moment they refuse to move their trucks, they are arrested and towed. As soon as a few are towed away, the rest disperse.

If commission actually finds that, "the government invoked the Act in error", it will go back to Parliament and the majority will vote on action. Since the NDP and Liberals think it was okay, they will probably have a committee rewrite the Emerg. Act so it's okay next time.  It's really only a question of, "Does this Act fit this problem?"  It's not like, "Justin Trudeau is an evil dictator and totally broke the law".  The protestor lawyers tried to make a whole "the police were mean to us when they broke up our illegal occupation" but the Comissioner waved them off and said, basically, "We're not here to discuss the police. We're here to discuss the Emerg Act, if it was necessary and how to head off situations so the Act isn't necessary in the future."

Toque.

scottish

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2022, 07:45:20 PM »
I have mixed feelings about the Emergencies Act.   I don't think it was intended for something as mundane as clearing out an illegal protest, even a great big obnoxious one.    On the other hand, the police weren't getting the job done, and the protest/occupation had been going on much too long.   

In my mind, there were 2 significant events that took place shortly before the police operation began:
1.  Steve Bell took over as acting chief of OPS after Peter Sloly resigned.
2.  The feds passed the emergencies act.

In the testimony I've read from Bell it's not clear which, if either, of these events actually triggered the police action.



FrugalToque

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2022, 09:47:14 PM »
I have mixed feelings about the Emergencies Act.   I don't think it was intended for something as mundane as clearing out an illegal protest, even a great big obnoxious one.    On the other hand, the police weren't getting the job done, and the protest/occupation had been going on much too long.   

In my mind, there were 2 significant events that took place shortly before the police operation began:
1.  Steve Bell took over as acting chief of OPS after Peter Sloly resigned.
2.  The feds passed the emergencies act.

In the testimony I've read from Bell it's not clear which, if either, of these events actually triggered the police action.


Freeland's testimony cleared that up, I thought.  If you look at the timeline, the protestors were being jerks for a long, long time with little reaction from anyone. The city barely did anything, the provincial police barely did anything.


But then, quite suddenly, they started blockading the border - especially the Ambassador bridge, which is 25% of our trade with the U.S.  Auto plants immediately shut down on both sides of the border because of JIT inventory processes.  That was absolutely brutal, especially to Doug Ford's biggest donors.  The provincial PCs are the big business party and that hurts them deeply.  Very shortly thereafter, the Act was invoked.


If you listen to Freeland's testimony, ignoring the conspiracy quack, they were very concerned of a massive economic impact if the US stopped trusting us as a trading partner.  We had American Democrats (Stefanik IIRC) saying, "let's stop trusting foreigners with our economy".  That's potentially millions of jobs.  No question that the demo in Ottawa was nasty, with all the harassment they talked about, but the real pain was economic.


Toque.

scottish

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Re: Anyone Following the Rouleau Commission?
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2022, 03:37:07 PM »
I have mixed feelings about the Emergencies Act.   I don't think it was intended for something as mundane as clearing out an illegal protest, even a great big obnoxious one.    On the other hand, the police weren't getting the job done, and the protest/occupation had been going on much too long.   

In my mind, there were 2 significant events that took place shortly before the police operation began:
1.  Steve Bell took over as acting chief of OPS after Peter Sloly resigned.
2.  The feds passed the emergencies act.

In the testimony I've read from Bell it's not clear which, if either, of these events actually triggered the police action.


Freeland's testimony cleared that up, I thought.  If you look at the timeline, the protestors were being jerks for a long, long time with little reaction from anyone. The city barely did anything, the provincial police barely did anything.


But then, quite suddenly, they started blockading the border - especially the Ambassador bridge, which is 25% of our trade with the U.S.  Auto plants immediately shut down on both sides of the border because of JIT inventory processes.  That was absolutely brutal, especially to Doug Ford's biggest donors.  The provincial PCs are the big business party and that hurts them deeply.  Very shortly thereafter, the Act was invoked.


If you listen to Freeland's testimony, ignoring the conspiracy quack, they were very concerned of a massive economic impact if the US stopped trusting us as a trading partner.  We had American Democrats (Stefanik IIRC) saying, "let's stop trusting foreigners with our economy".  That's potentially millions of jobs.  No question that the demo in Ottawa was nasty, with all the harassment they talked about, but the real pain was economic.


Toque.

Yeah, I think Freeland did clear it up.   She made a solid case for it.