A Canadian perspective on electric vehicles

[PharmaStache]

I'm starting to research our next vehicle purchase, and naturally I am looking into electric vehicles.  None of them actually seem like a reasonable choice for my situation, and I'm hoping someone can confirm this or correct me.  I live in a rural area of the prairies and mainly do highway driving to work and to the nearest city (100km each way).  We also visit family a few times a year 400km away.  Total km drive per year is 20k.  And of course we have the typical prairie climate of winters down to -40. 

Hybrid- no, that is for cities because of how the car charges itself
Battery only- no, in the winter I won't be able to drive those distances and there are issues with charging the battery when it is that cold anyway
PHEV- yes, the battery would work great in the spring/summer/fall.  Would mainly use gas in the winter.  However the high price offsets any savings.

Is the theory that once gas reaches a high enough price the PHEV would be a good option?  When I do the calculations now based on $2 or $3/L I don't come out ahead with the PHEV.

Sorry if I got any of the terminology wrong!

[nereo]

What inputs are you using for your calculations that you aren’t coming out ahead at $2/L for a PHEV? 

I’m also in disagreement that a hybrid is only sensible for cities. For rural driving it’s hard to beat a Prius in a strictly economic decision. Sure it does even slightly better in a city, but at 100km/hr it beats a civic or matrix handily.

[Goldielocks]

The key is to find a good quality, discounted, used hybrid or PHEV car.  Keep the premium low.

[Rockies]

I strongly disagree with your stance on hybrids.

Hybrids (such as the toyota prius) are a great alternative and also get very good fuel economy on highway. Yes they do a bit better in the city but the highway mileage is great as well. I have driven a toyota prius in Alberta since 2014 and I'd never go back. It saves me a huge amount of money. Most of the time I can get around 5.0l/100km or better on a highway road trip. You wont find many other cars that will beat that. It has enough room to allow me to camp in the back or put a full size bike without taking a tire off.  It works well in winter and summer and I can't think of a more appropriate vehicle.

PHEV (such as the Prius Prime) would also be great, but they are incredibly expensive and the math doesnt really work out well when you factor in the gas savings. If you find the right deal perhaps this could be a good choice but I find that the premium commanded just doesnt make sense.


The problem with EV's is that you do need a very long range EV for most Canadian driving. Long range EV's are insanely expensive right now. The cost simply doesn't make sense any which way you run the numbers compared to a hybrid. Also on route fast charging might even still be a problem (depending on where you are going and if there is a Supercharger or fast charger network in place). If you are new to EV's try renting one for day, researching charging networks, etc. For some people they can work great, for others not so great. I would love to have one myself, but I simply can't afford the insane prices of any EV with a ~400km range which is what I would need to make road trips work.

If you are looking for a budget option i'd go with a used second generation Toyota Prius (2004-2009).
 

[chasingsnow]

PTF as me and my SO dream of one day being able to afford a Nissan Leaf

[pachnik]

PTF as I have been considering a Prius Prime as my next car. 

[Mighty Eyebrows]

We were lucky to get a PHEV last year. We love it. All electric around town, gas for occasional longer trips. Cheaper than a full EV but we use it exclusively as an electric 90% of the time.

Then again, a new vehicle is a crazy luxury and I am not surprised if the numbers don't work for most people (yet). We also considered keeping our gas hatchback and adding a used leaf for around town.

[scottish]

I strongly disagree with your stance on hybrids.

Hybrids (such as the toyota prius) are a great alternative and also get very good fuel economy on highway. Yes they do a bit better in the city but the highway mileage is great as well. I have driven a toyota prius in Alberta since 2014 and I'd never go back. It saves me a huge amount of money. Most of the time I can get around 5.0l/100km or better on a highway road trip. You wont find many other cars that will beat that. It has enough room to allow me to camp in the back or put a full size bike without taking a tire off.  It works well in winter and summer and I can't think of a more appropriate vehicle.

PHEV (such as the Prius Prime) would also be great, but they are incredibly expensive and the math doesnt really work out well when you factor in the gas savings. If you find the right deal perhaps this could be a good choice but I find that the premium commanded just doesnt make sense.


The problem with EV's is that you do need a very long range EV for most Canadian driving. Long range EV's are insanely expensive right now. The cost simply doesn't make sense any which way you run the numbers compared to a hybrid. Also on route fast charging might even still be a problem (depending on where you are going and if there is a Supercharger or fast charger network in place). If you are new to EV's try renting one for day, researching charging networks, etc. For some people they can work great, for others not so great. I would love to have one myself, but I simply can't afford the insane prices of any EV with a ~400km range which is what I would need to make road trips work.

If you are looking for a budget option i'd go with a used second generation Toyota Prius (2004-2009).

When I do the numbers....    We drive about 15000 km/year.   In a prius, at 5L/100km, that would be 750L of fuel, about $1500 at today's prices.   In a corolla, at 7L/100 km, that would be 1050L of fuel, about $2100 at today's prices.

A new prius lists at 30K   and a new corolla lists at $20K.   Neglecting tax and fees, the Corolla has a small advantage over a 15 year lifetime.     I'm not sure if the Prius has a point where it needs major repairs - like a new battery - but the corolla would not.

Do you drive alot?

[Rockies]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

[Rockies]

And to further answer your questions - battery replacements on Prius' are rare. They can happen, but the majority of them are in hot climates in the southern states where batteries are cooked in the sun. In cooler climates batteries don't seem to fail often, and now you can get rebuilt battery packs for a non-insane price.  As far as I can tell hybrid Toyota batteries are incredibly reliable for at least 400,000 km's (basically, the life of the rest of the car).  I'd be just as worried about the ICE engine or the motor generator or transaxle failing, but in general those are also quite reliable. 

But to your point - the Corolla is also incredibly reliable and a great choice.

And depending on the year, yes I do drive a lot - mainly long road trips. My used hybrids were bought after studying the used market for many months and waiting for a good condition vehicle to pop up at below-market price and pouncing on them. In my opinion this is the best way to buy any car, but you have to have the time and patience and knowledge about the vehicle to do that.

[Blissful Biker]

We're really happy with our 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV.  It has the space and 4WD for kids and gear in our rural ski town. 90+% of our trips are electric but we do not have range anxiety if we set out on a longer road trip.  We're a single vehicle family and appreciate the simplicity of a good shared vehicle as opposed to maintaining two "beaters".

I expect our next vehicle (years down the road) will be fully electric.  By then we'll be empty nesters,  I'll wont be working and will have plenty of time for any extra logistics an EV brings.

[kenmoremmm]

you should be able to buy a used prius in the states for <$10k USD.

we bought a used chevy bolt (2017) just before moving to canada. in the winter, when it was -30C, range dropped to around 115km, so if you're truly traveling 100km at -40C, then you're probably screwed with a bolt (or similar, which all seem to have roughly comparable ranges). love the car. works awesome for us. just traveled 600km in the kootenays (partial work trip) and paid $0 to charge. for us, we'll never buy another gas vehicle again.

[Plina]

I live in northern Sweden where you can get temperatures down to -45 c. I don’t drive daily but my parents live about 400 km from were I stay. I concluded that I would need an EV with an range about 600 km to be sure to get to my parents in winter without stoppning to charge which would be a major pita. There are some cars in that range but it would be 60-70 k USD here. I will probably buy one in a couple of years as a company car but for now I could not justify buying it now due to my limited driving. I bought a slightly used Volvo that uses gas instead for a third of the price.

[nereo]

I live in northern Sweden where you can get temperatures down to -45 c. I don’t drive daily but my parents live about 400 km from were I stay. I concluded that I would need an EV with an range about 600 km to be sure to get to my parents in winter without stoppning to charge which would be a major pita. There are some cars in that range but it would be 60-70 k USD here. I will probably buy one in a couple of years as a company car but for now I could not justify buying it now due to my limited driving. I bought a slightly used Volvo that uses gas instead for a third of the price.

I'm curious why you consider stopping to charge a PITA in Sweden?  Is it a lack of DC fast charging stations, or just the need to stop for 20 minutes on your journey?

[GuitarStv]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

I have no problem getting a road bike in the back seat of our corrola.   Just pop both wheels off and you don't even need to involve the trunk.  (Important to clean your bike first though, as grease will stain the upholstery.)

[Plina]

I live in northern Sweden where you can get temperatures down to -45 c. I don’t drive daily but my parents live about 400 km from were I stay. I concluded that I would need an EV with an range about 600 km to be sure to get to my parents in winter without stoppning to charge which would be a major pita. There are some cars in that range but it would be 60-70 k USD here. I will probably buy one in a couple of years as a company car but for now I could not justify buying it now due to my limited driving. I bought a slightly used Volvo that uses gas instead for a third of the price.

I'm curious why you consider stopping to charge a PITA in Sweden?  Is it a lack of DC fast charging stations, or just the need to stop for 20 minutes on your journey?

They are currently building out fastcharging stations so that will not be a problem. The halfway stop or the future stops are pretty boring stops so stoppning for 20 minutes on a gas station would not be something to look forward to. I don’t normally stop after only two hours of driving. I want at least drive for 3-4 hours before stoppning.

[Plina]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

I have no problem getting a road bike in the back seat of our corrola.   Just pop both wheels off and you don't even need to involve the trunk.  (Important to clean your bike first though, as grease will stain the upholstery.)

How do you prevent it from ”bouncing” around? I normally put my bikes in the trunk and push the backseats down but would love to find an easiest way. I can’t lift them up on the roof.

[GuitarStv]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

I have no problem getting a road bike in the back seat of our corrola.   Just pop both wheels off and you don't even need to involve the trunk.  (Important to clean your bike first though, as grease will stain the upholstery.)

How do you prevent it from ”bouncing” around? I normally put my bikes in the trunk and push the backseats down but would love to find an easiest way. I can’t lift them up on the roof.

Frame upside down and wedged between passenger seat and rear seat (just slide the passenger seat back until it's snug).  You will have to play a bit with the passenger seat tilt to get a good angle to wedge it.  Then both wheels on the back seat or in the trunk.

[Plina]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

I have no problem getting a road bike in the back seat of our corrola.   Just pop both wheels off and you don't even need to involve the trunk.  (Important to clean your bike first though, as grease will stain the upholstery.)

How do you prevent it from ”bouncing” around? I normally put my bikes in the trunk and push the backseats down but would love to find an easiest way. I can’t lift them up on the roof.

Frame upside down and wedged between passenger seat and rear seat (just slide the passenger seat back until it's snug).  You will have to play a bit with the passenger seat tilt to get a good angle to wedge it.  Then both wheels on the back seat or in the trunk.

Thanks, i will try it. Nowadays, I am mostly transporting the triathlon bike and the mtb.

[GuitarStv]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

I have no problem getting a road bike in the back seat of our corrola.   Just pop both wheels off and you don't even need to involve the trunk.  (Important to clean your bike first though, as grease will stain the upholstery.)

How do you prevent it from ”bouncing” around? I normally put my bikes in the trunk and push the backseats down but would love to find an easiest way. I can’t lift them up on the roof.

Frame upside down and wedged between passenger seat and rear seat (just slide the passenger seat back until it's snug).  You will have to play a bit with the passenger seat tilt to get a good angle to wedge it.  Then both wheels on the back seat or in the trunk.

Thanks, i will try it. Nowadays, I am mostly transporting the triathlon bike and the mtb.

If you care about your upholstery, pop a tarp or something over the seats first too.  :P  It's really hard to get a bike clean enough to not need that.

[nereo]

Where did the OP go?

[Plina]

I actually agree with your math there given you are focused on new cars and probably in that case a new corolla is a better deal than a new Prius if the corolla will work for your purposes.

There is one issue I'd like to point out though: the Prius is larger and more capable than a standard corolla due its hatchback design. I also believe the interior of the Prius is more spacious than a corolla hatchback. But again - if comparing between the two and the Corolla meets your needs, I'd go for that.

My comparison degrades a bit when looking at new cars as the Prius has shrunken over the years. About 10 years ago the Prius was significantly larger than the corolla and corolla hatch, and for me the Corolla simply was just a bit too small (I need to be able to comfortably sleep in the back of my car with the seats laid flat and be able to lock a bicycle inside). The size difference doesn't appear to be that much any more as the newer Prius' have gotten smaller as they search for more fuel efficiency. 

I still wouldn't discount the fact that right now most hybrids are a better deal when you run the numbers than a PHEV. I think you have made the point that perhaps just a small gas car is even cheaper in the long run than a hybrid.

I should also mention that a few years ago when gas prices were normal, the price of used hybrids was more in line with non-hybrids. Recently this equation has changed.

I have no problem getting a road bike in the back seat of our corrola.   Just pop both wheels off and you don't even need to involve the trunk.  (Important to clean your bike first though, as grease will stain the upholstery.)

How do you prevent it from ”bouncing” around? I normally put my bikes in the trunk and push the backseats down but would love to find an easiest way. I can’t lift them up on the roof.

Frame upside down and wedged between passenger seat and rear seat (just slide the passenger seat back until it's snug).  You will have to play a bit with the passenger seat tilt to get a good angle to wedge it.  Then both wheels on the back seat or in the trunk.

Thanks, i will try it. Nowadays, I am mostly transporting the triathlon bike and the mtb.

If you care about your upholstery, pop a tarp or something over the seats first too.  :P  It's really hard to get a bike clean enough to not need that.

My problem is that I have white leatherseats in the car so I need a tarp anyway.

[nereo]

....or seat covers.

[Plina]

....or seat covers.

Not worth it. I don’t have kids to mess them up.

[Heckler]

and here I was hoping this thread was for Mustachians.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-electric-vehicles-car-dependence-1.6534893

Our government should be doing much more to get Canadians out of cars altogether

Greenwashing operations

Those figures sound great to the mining industry, which hopes to use EVs to greenwash its operations, but they have severe human and environmental consequences throughout the supply chain.

The "lithium triangle" in South America is poised to be a significant source of the mineral, but already it's polluting the water and lowering the water table, threatening fresh water access for local communities.

Meanwhile, the site of much of the world's cobalt extraction in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) experiences high rates of birth defects, contaminated water, and around 40,000 children are believed to work in artisanal mines. In 2019, electric carmaker Tesla was among a number of companies named in a lawsuit over child deaths at cobalt mines in the DRC.

[scottish]

and here I was hoping this thread was for Mustachians.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-electric-vehicles-car-dependence-1.6534893

Our government should be doing much more to get Canadians out of cars altogether

Greenwashing operations

Those figures sound great to the mining industry, which hopes to use EVs to greenwash its operations, but they have severe human and environmental consequences throughout the supply chain.

The "lithium triangle" in South America is poised to be a significant source of the mineral, but already it's polluting the water and lowering the water table, threatening fresh water access for local communities.

Meanwhile, the site of much of the world's cobalt extraction in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) experiences high rates of birth defects, contaminated water, and around 40,000 children are believed to work in artisanal mines. In 2019, electric carmaker Tesla was among a number of companies named in a lawsuit over child deaths at cobalt mines in the DRC.

Make you wonder if Paris Marx (the author) owns a vehicle.

[Heckler]

The younger generations that we interact with are shunning cars altogether, living in a big city were transit, bike paths and car shares are prevalent.   Check the rest of Paris' articles, I won't be surprised if the answer is no, they don't own a car.

Feel free to ask Paris on IG or Twitter.   My bet is no.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CgCOSjxu7i4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Stasher]

#1 ---- does anyone in here actually own a full EV for a long time? I did and also drove a 280km range EV 1/3 of the way across Canada. So much misinformation out there on how well the batteries last, how amazingly powerful even the smallest EV are, how smooth and nice they are to drive (quiet) and of course how easy they are to drive.

#2 --- the problem for the OP is they live in Saskatchewan, I think the only place in North America that is "charging" you an extra tax to own an EV and they have also invested basically zero in charing networks as a government. They have relied on municipalities , federal gov and private business. Come to BC where it is the highest EV ownership and sales per capita in NorthAmerica to truly understand what is possibly for daily life in an EV, ease of charging and mass transformation of the driving population.

#3 --- 100% what @Heckler  said, I realized that we needed to drive way less and having 2 cars was crazy. I sold the EV, kept my old miles out SUV and ride or walk almost everywhere I can. This is the true focus on where life and society should be, we are just exchanging one car cult mode of transport for another while not actually improving the lives of ourselves or our communities.

Follow "War on Cars" podcast or "Not Just Bikes" youtube for amazing content. @Chaplin transformed my outlook on this, heck he owns an EV but together we push each other to ride everywhere and leave cars at home.

[Plina]

The younger generations that we interact with are shunning cars altogether, living in a big city were transit, bike paths and car shares are prevalent.   Check the rest of Paris' articles, I won't be surprised if the answer is no, they don't own a car.

Feel free to ask Paris on IG or Twitter.   My bet is no.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CgCOSjxu7i4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

I didn’t own a car when I lived in a big city because it was not necessary. I used car share and car rental for longer periods. After moving to a smaller city I stilled lived without a car for 6 months wereafter I reluctantly bought a car. As I know live within driving distance to my parents it became a hassle trying to rent a car for the holidays or relying on someone else. No public transport would take me the whole way. To visit my grandfather someone had to pick me up at the bus or trainstation and get me back because you can’t take a bike on the train. Without no car shares the car rental became an expensive hassle because I had to pay for international insurance to be able to take the car across the border to Finland.

My point is that it is easy to promote being carfree in a bigger city. It is a lot harder if you want or need to have transport to the countryside. My car is mostly parked, while I walk to most places as I have chosen to live in the city center.