Author Topic: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!  (Read 43657 times)

Kgoose

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #200 on: May 20, 2019, 08:13:02 PM »
Definitely need to include the home in the assets test. The oldies are not innocent here, they know exactly what they are doing to milk the taxpayer.

Everyone would be paying substantially less tax if downsizing were to be the norm. Instead of an inheritance, the oldies' poor grandchildren would get a boost from not having to fund the age pension through higher taxes.

As a country we all support self reliance, until we turn 65 (or 67 now, as the case may be).
I do agree with most of what you say, Marty, and I would be happy if the government ended up owning all the houses.

However, given my recent interactions with my parents driving me batty, and the conversations Iíve had with my peers about their parents driving them batty, the elderly who are at that stage donít quite grasp things that you expect them to. For instance, I would really appreciate the income test and assets test being simpler, after spending several months arguing with my mother about these, and her peppering Centrelink with every piece of information they didnít want.

One major problem is that people should downsize the moment they retire, but they leave it far too late, and only think about doing so when they are battling a big house that they cannot maintain and that makes life difficult for them. The people who do change houses when they retire build their dream house in a sea change location thatís no good when youíre old and decrepit. If you move to somewhere easy to manage and maintain, with facilities close by that youíll use into old age, ten years before you need to, you will build your community, otherwise youíre lost.

This yes!!!

I have been talking to my parents about this a lot recently. It is a mindset shift for them. One that unfortunately they cannot fathom. Already the family home is run down and needs a lot of renovations. Why not downsize and make your life easier when you can. Build you communities now.
But it can't be forced. When it is forced it is too late and stresses everyone out.

I can envisage in 10 -20- 30 years time whenever it may be to not only have to deal with grief but also to have to deal with 50-60 years worth of junk and selling a house that hasn't been well maintained

itchyfeet

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #201 on: May 20, 2019, 08:46:17 PM »
I think itís important to recognise that retirement is likely to be very long.

The house that is good for you at 20 is not likely to be same as whats best at 45.

Equally what works at 60 is not likely to be what works at 85.

We should be able to move freely between houses.

Stamp duty should be abolished to facilitate this.

middo

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #202 on: May 20, 2019, 09:53:33 PM »
I think itís important to recognise that retirement is likely to be very long.

The house that is good for you at 20 is not likely to be same as whats best at 45.

Equally what works at 60 is not likely to be what works at 85.

We should be able to move freely between houses.

Stamp duty should be abolished to facilitate this.

The removal of stamp duties would actually make a reasonable amount of sense, as it is a state government tax that varies with the economic climate.  A system more like council rates would be more equitable as it affects everyone rather than just those that change ownership of property.  However, a sudden change would also affect those that have recently purchased properties by effectively taxing them twice.  Since average home ownership is somewhere from 7 to 10 years, if there could be a breakout  of bipartisanship on this issue, a shift from stamp duty to rating system over a 7 to 10 year period would give state governments more certainty of income, and make property transactions easier.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #203 on: May 20, 2019, 10:11:20 PM »
Alternatively a discount or exemption on stamp duty for buyers over a certain age, spending less than a certain amount on a property.

There's similar stamp duty exemptions for FHB in Victoria already.

happy

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #204 on: May 20, 2019, 11:47:53 PM »
I think itís important to recognise that retirement is likely to be very long.

The house that is good for you at 20 is not likely to be same as whats best at 45.

Equally what works at 60 is not likely to be what works at 85.

We should be able to move freely between houses.

Stamp duty should be abolished to facilitate this.

The removal of stamp duties would actually make a reasonable amount of sense, as it is a state government tax that varies with the economic climate.  A system more like council rates would be more equitable as it affects everyone rather than just those that change ownership of property.  However, a sudden change would also affect those that have recently purchased properties by effectively taxing them twice.  Since average home ownership is somewhere from 7 to 10 years, if there could be a breakout  of bipartisanship on this issue, a shift from stamp duty to rating system over a 7 to 10 year period would give state governments more certainty of income, and make property transactions easier.

This makes sense to me.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #205 on: May 20, 2019, 11:49:00 PM »
Must be a new record.... 2 days in and the first election promise has already been broken.

ScoMo admits it's unlikely parliament can be recalled in time to pass the legislation to amend the tax tables for 2019, meaning the additional Low and Middle Income Tax Offsets proposed in the budget cannot be handed out this years tax returns.

He can do miracles when he wants, apparently ;)

marty998

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #206 on: May 21, 2019, 01:53:13 AM »

I find the most distressing part of this conversation is the youthful denigration of the elderly. "Those rich old folks who are financial leeches and a burden"  and so forth.  Older citizens offer much to our society in many ways and it saddens me that we live in a society that by and large does not appreciate that...unlike some others where the elderly are treated with special respect.

It would be nice if those same old people would not only stop denigrating the youth as "lazy entitled millennials", but also stop voting to keep their privileged tax free status + benefits at the expense of young people :)

Goes without saying not all old people and not all young people fall into the stereotype. But this is the level of debate and outcomes in Aus politics today.

Dropbear

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #207 on: May 21, 2019, 07:47:12 AM »

I find the most distressing part of this conversation is the youthful denigration of the elderly. "Those rich old folks who are financial leeches and a burden"  and so forth.  Older citizens offer much to our society in many ways and it saddens me that we live in a society that by and large does not appreciate that...unlike some others where the elderly are treated with special respect.

It would be nice if those same old people would not only stop denigrating the youth as "lazy entitled millennials", but also stop voting to keep their privileged tax free status + benefits at the expense of young people :)

Goes without saying not all old people and not all young people fall into the stereotype. But this is the level of debate and outcomes in Aus politics today.

Lots of great ideas here, from you both and from others.

Reflecting on the election, it was sold as the "climate change election", but it didn't turn out to be so, I don't think.  Both major parties told us they were acting on climate change (with varying levels of truthiness, of course).  But to the fault of both parties, they never decisively articulated how different their environment policies were.  The only ones who did were Zali and Tony!

It wasn't even a young verses old election - sure there's lots of young people who are devastated about the result.  But there's also lots of old people who were voting not for themselves but for their grandchildren - they're also disappointed...

Perhaps the only difference is that the old people have seen it all happen before?

mjr

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #208 on: May 21, 2019, 03:54:55 PM »
There's much about the Coalition I would change if I could, but wow I am happy that the ALP was defeated.  As usual, lefties in denial and still flogging their now rejected policies.  Climate change over-reach, stolen franking credits, -ve gearing, CGT - the Australian people didn't want them and saw through the garbage rhetoric that the ALP was using to sell them.  There's still people on this forum calling franking credit refunds a handout, for heaven's sake.

Funny how the mood can shift.  Plenty of newspaper comments now of people cheering Dutton for his ministerial performance and his role in getting rid of Turnbull.

As I am on record in this forum for voting for Dutton before the election, it's good to be vindicated.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 04:07:04 PM by mjr »

mjr

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #209 on: May 21, 2019, 04:34:41 PM »
"Scott Morrison says his promised tax cuts will still be delivered for the 2019-20 financial year even if parliament does not sit before July 1, with the Australian Taxation ≠Office confirming it can enact the changes retrospectively"

Must be a new record.... 2 days in and the first election promise has already been broken.

ScoMo admits it's unlikely parliament can be recalled in time to pass the legislation to amend the tax tables for 2019, meaning the additional Low and Middle Income Tax Offsets proposed in the budget cannot be handed out this years tax returns.

Maybe you'd like to retract the "broken promises" line, Marty "


middo

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #210 on: May 21, 2019, 05:09:09 PM »
There's much about the Coalition I would change if I could, but wow I am happy that the ALP was defeated.  As usual, lefties in denial and still flogging their now rejected policies.  Climate change over-reach, stolen franking credits, -ve gearing, CGT - the Australian people didn't want them and saw through the garbage rhetoric that the ALP was using to sell them.  There's still people on this forum calling franking credit refunds a handout, for heaven's sake.

Funny how the mood can shift.  Plenty of newspaper comments now of people cheering Dutton for his ministerial performance and his role in getting rid of Turnbull.

As I am on record in this forum for voting for Dutton before the election, it's good to be vindicated.

Franking credit refunds to people who haven't paid tax are a handout.  Just welfare for the wealthy.  I am happy to be "people on this forum" who see the reality of a $6 billion handout being welfare.  Maybe it could be better targeted.  Maybe those who get it would need other government assistance instead.  It is still a poorly targeted handout.

As for voting for Dutton.  I think that explains it all.

Fresh Bread

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #211 on: May 21, 2019, 06:38:43 PM »
There's much about the Coalition I would change if I could, but wow I am happy that the ALP was defeated.  As usual, lefties in denial and still flogging their now rejected policies.  Climate change over-reach, stolen franking credits, -ve gearing, CGT - the Australian people didn't want them and saw through the garbage rhetoric that the ALP was using to sell them.  There's still people on this forum calling franking credit refunds a handout, for heaven's sake.

I'm not keen on this sort of language when talking about those on the other side of politics. It doesn't help people debate. I try not to do it when talking about selfish right wing Nazis, lol ;)

____

I heard on the radio the first use of the word 'mandate' in that the coalition have been given a strong mandate to bring in their policies. But they had a swing against them in the primary vote... I'm all for the party that won just getting on with things but this is a bit of a porky pie, no?

middo

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #212 on: May 21, 2019, 08:21:47 PM »
Political mandate theory has been dead in Australia since 1975.  A majority in the lower house does not imply a mandate that the upper house has to follow.  Thank Fraser and Kerr for that one.

deborah

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #213 on: May 21, 2019, 08:41:49 PM »
I was at a sewing group meeting this morning. I think everyone there was a woman of a certain age. Retired. I think all but one (who was quiet) would be on the pension. Wouldn't vote for Labor - they were going to tax me.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #214 on: May 21, 2019, 09:02:26 PM »
There's much about the Coalition I would change if I could, but wow I am happy that the ALP was defeated.  As usual, lefties in denial and still flogging their now rejected policies.  Climate change over-reach, stolen franking credits, -ve gearing, CGT - the Australian people didn't want them and saw through the garbage rhetoric that the ALP was using to sell them.  There's still people on this forum calling franking credit refunds a handout, for heaven's sake.

Funny how the mood can shift.  Plenty of newspaper comments now of people cheering Dutton for his ministerial performance and his role in getting rid of Turnbull.

As I am on record in this forum for voting for Dutton before the election, it's good to be vindicated.

Franking credit refunds to people who haven't paid tax are a handout.  Just welfare for the wealthy.  I am happy to be "people on this forum" who see the reality of a $6 billion handout being welfare.  Maybe it could be better targeted.  Maybe those who get it would need other government assistance instead.  It is still a poorly targeted handout.

As for voting for Dutton.  I think that explains it all.

I don't know that a tax refund can ever be called a handout. Maybe in the case of franking credits because the tax was never truly paid by the individual - perhaps that's an exception. But I have always felt it disingenuous to refer to other tax offsets/refunds (e.g. negative gearing, CGT discount) as handouts. There's a vast semantic gulf between giving someone back more of his or her earnings, versus giving someone welfare which represents a redistribution payment that is not linked to any remunerative work or investment. One is earned. The other is given. They are not equivalent.

I also believe that policy should be aimed at giving people the most of their own money back while still having a functioning society and safety net - rather than leaving people less money in their own pocket, while redistributing the rest to achieve more equality of outcomes. I don't believe in equality of outcomes, and I'd rather have tax revenue be spent just ensuring a reasonable distribution of opportunity. Once you've had that opportunity to compete, then you're on your own, subject to a basic safety net.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 09:04:38 PM by Bloop Bloop »

Fresh Bread

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #215 on: May 21, 2019, 10:06:24 PM »
I was at a sewing group meeting this morning. I think everyone there was a woman of a certain age. Retired. I think all but one (who was quiet) would be on the pension. Wouldn't vote for Labor - they were going to tax me.

Waaah! That's so sad. Hopefully they are not on the pension, they are quietly multi millionaires with vast swathes of IPs!

deborah

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #216 on: May 21, 2019, 11:43:18 PM »
I was at a sewing group meeting this morning. I think everyone there was a woman of a certain age. Retired. I think all but one (who was quiet) would be on the pension. Wouldn't vote for Labor - they were going to tax me.

Waaah! That's so sad. Hopefully they are not on the pension, they are quietly multi millionaires with vast swathes of IPs!

I am quite confident that most of them are on the pension.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #217 on: May 22, 2019, 05:01:36 AM »
The problem Labor has is that everyone knows taxes will always be higher under Labor - at least, overall taxes on personal income will be.

Even though only the top 20% benefit from the Liberals' personal income tax policies, you probably have another 30-40% of the population who aspire to one day be in the top 20%, and would rather have that gamble, than settle for a mediocre income, at which level Labor's taxes will be lower.

This explains why Labor's politics of envy didn't work.

marty998

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #218 on: May 22, 2019, 06:38:13 AM »
"Scott Morrison says his promised tax cuts will still be delivered for the 2019-20 financial year even if parliament does not sit before July 1, with the Australian Taxation ≠Office confirming it can enact the changes retrospectively"

Must be a new record.... 2 days in and the first election promise has already been broken.

ScoMo admits it's unlikely parliament can be recalled in time to pass the legislation to amend the tax tables for 2019, meaning the additional Low and Middle Income Tax Offsets proposed in the budget cannot be handed out this years tax returns.

Maybe you'd like to retract the "broken promises" line, Marty "

Iíll believe it when I see it. The crossbench has already indicated they wonít vote for it because itís tied to other parts of the budget that are unattractive to them.

marty998

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #219 on: May 22, 2019, 06:45:55 AM »
The problem Labor has is that everyone knows taxes will always be higher under Labor - at least, overall taxes on personal income will be.

Even though only the top 20% benefit from the Liberals' personal income tax policies, you probably have another 30-40% of the population who aspire to one day be in the top 20%, and would rather have that gamble, than settle for a mediocre income, at which level Labor's taxes will be lower.

This explains why Labor's politics of envy didn't work.

You are correct that the politics of envy didnít work and that was Laborís downfall. Itís also true that taxes would be stupidly high under Shorten.

However, taxes as a share of GDP were (substantially)  lower under Rudd and Gillard, than under Howard or Abbot and Turnbull. So I donít think it is right to say taxes are always higher under Labor.

Unfortunately they were shit at cutting spending after the GFC, so the budget in turn was also shit.

They just keep baking in unsustainably high future spending.

Dropbear

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #220 on: May 22, 2019, 07:58:08 AM »
I heard on the radio the first use of the word 'mandate' in that the coalition have been given a strong mandate to bring in their policies. But they had a swing against them in the primary vote... I'm all for the party that won just getting on with things but this is a bit of a porky pie, no?

The Liberals just had their weakest primary vote since 1998.  Yep, pork pies is what you make from your pork barrels.

If Labor had won, they would most likely have had a very hard time in getting their flawed negative gearing policy passed through both houses.  I would expect nothing less tortuous for the Liberals and their proposal for tax cuts for the highest brackets, in the name of the 58.7% of Australian voters who didn't vote for the Coalition.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #221 on: May 22, 2019, 04:33:42 PM »
The problem Labor has is that everyone knows taxes will always be higher under Labor - at least, overall taxes on personal income will be.

Even though only the top 20% benefit from the Liberals' personal income tax policies, you probably have another 30-40% of the population who aspire to one day be in the top 20%, and would rather have that gamble, than settle for a mediocre income, at which level Labor's taxes will be lower.

This explains why Labor's politics of envy didn't work.

You are correct that the politics of envy didnít work and that was Laborís downfall. Itís also true that taxes would be stupidly high under Shorten.

However, taxes as a share of GDP were (substantially)  lower under Rudd and Gillard, than under Howard or Abbot and Turnbull. So I donít think it is right to say taxes are always higher under Labor.

Unfortunately they were shit at cutting spending after the GFC, so the budget in turn was also shit.

They just keep baking in unsustainably high future spending.

Just highlighting this section.

The "taxes are always higher under Labor" line is somehow believed by many, even though it can be demonstrably proven to be wrong quite easily.  I guess if you don't accept the science of global warming, then you don't accept basic tax-to-gdp ratios either.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #222 on: May 22, 2019, 04:55:19 PM »
The problem Labor has is that everyone knows taxes will always be higher under Labor - at least, overall taxes on personal income will be.

Even though only the top 20% benefit from the Liberals' personal income tax policies, you probably have another 30-40% of the population who aspire to one day be in the top 20%, and would rather have that gamble, than settle for a mediocre income, at which level Labor's taxes will be lower.

This explains why Labor's politics of envy didn't work.

You are correct that the politics of envy didnít work and that was Laborís downfall. Itís also true that taxes would be stupidly high under Shorten.

However, taxes as a share of GDP were (substantially)  lower under Rudd and Gillard, than under Howard or Abbot and Turnbull. So I donít think it is right to say taxes are always higher under Labor.

Unfortunately they were shit at cutting spending after the GFC, so the budget in turn was also shit.

They just keep baking in unsustainably high future spending.

Just highlighting this section.

The "taxes are always higher under Labor" line is somehow believed by many, even though it can be demonstrably proven to be wrong quite easily.  I guess if you don't accept the science of global warming, then you don't accept basic tax-to-gdp ratios either.

Maybe if you had read my post properly, you would have seen that I never mentioned tax-to-GDP. I mentioned personal income tax levels. And personal income tax levels are always higher under Labor.

The last significant adjustments we've had to personal income tax were under Howard from 2002-2006. In 2007 Rudd partly matched the Liberals' further proposed cuts. Then the Liberals instituted a short-lived deficit repair levy, and killed it off. Now under Labor that would be renewed. Labor is also not supporting parts 2 and 3 of the tax reform plan. So it is simply correct to say that personal income taxes will always be higher under Labor.

Gremlin

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #223 on: May 22, 2019, 05:02:43 PM »
"Scott Morrison says his promised tax cuts will still be delivered for the 2019-20 financial year even if parliament does not sit before July 1, with the Australian Taxation ≠Office confirming it can enact the changes retrospectively"

Must be a new record.... 2 days in and the first election promise has already been broken.

ScoMo admits it's unlikely parliament can be recalled in time to pass the legislation to amend the tax tables for 2019, meaning the additional Low and Middle Income Tax Offsets proposed in the budget cannot be handed out this years tax returns.

Maybe you'd like to retract the "broken promises" line, Marty "

Huh??  These were announced in the budget for 18/19, ie THIS Financial Year.  Bit disingenuous to say that "your tax cuts will come next year not this year" whilst claiming that's delivering on the promise of tax cuts this year.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #224 on: May 22, 2019, 05:19:59 PM »
The problem Labor has is that everyone knows taxes will always be higher under Labor - at least, overall taxes on personal income will be.

Even though only the top 20% benefit from the Liberals' personal income tax policies, you probably have another 30-40% of the population who aspire to one day be in the top 20%, and would rather have that gamble, than settle for a mediocre income, at which level Labor's taxes will be lower.

This explains why Labor's politics of envy didn't work.

You are correct that the politics of envy didnít work and that was Laborís downfall. Itís also true that taxes would be stupidly high under Shorten.

However, taxes as a share of GDP were (substantially)  lower under Rudd and Gillard, than under Howard or Abbot and Turnbull. So I donít think it is right to say taxes are always higher under Labor.

Unfortunately they were shit at cutting spending after the GFC, so the budget in turn was also shit.

They just keep baking in unsustainably high future spending.

Just highlighting this section.

The "taxes are always higher under Labor" line is somehow believed by many, even though it can be demonstrably proven to be wrong quite easily.  I guess if you don't accept the science of global warming, then you don't accept basic tax-to-gdp ratios either.

Maybe if you had read my post properly, you would have seen that I never mentioned tax-to-GDP. I mentioned personal income tax levels. And personal income tax levels are always higher under Labor.

The last significant adjustments we've had to personal income tax were under Howard from 2002-2006. In 2007 Rudd partly matched the Liberals' further proposed cuts. Then the Liberals instituted a short-lived deficit repair levy, and killed it off. Now under Labor that would be renewed. Labor is also not supporting parts 2 and 3 of the tax reform plan. So it is simply correct to say that personal income taxes will always be higher under Labor.

You said this: 
Quote
The problem Labor has is that everyone knows taxes will always be higher under Labor
and then qualified it.

But - if I use your logic and cut and chop when I want to, personal income tax rates for a significant portion on the population are the same under Labor or Liberal.   

So taxes are always the same under Liberal or Labor - except if you earn a lot more than the average wage.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #225 on: May 22, 2019, 09:06:02 PM »
Personal income tax for a significant portion of the population are actually lower under Labor. They look after their constituents.

Shame that they make the top quartile pay so much more.

And the bifurcation - the point at which Labor stops helping you and starts to be materially different from the tax rates under the Liberals - starts at about $90,000 - $120,000 - i.e. a multiple of 1.0 to 1.3x average full-time wage, or 1.2 to 1.4x median full-time wage. Wouldn't call that "a lot more than" the average wage.

Even at $150,000, which is 1.6x full-time average wage or 2.0x median full-time wage, at the point where earners are about $6k a year different in tax (Labor vs Liberal proposals), I wouldn't call that a lot more than the average wage.

So the problem Labor faces is that a lot of people aspire to these sorts of figures, and their attack on the "top end of town" thus falls short.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #226 on: May 22, 2019, 10:48:03 PM »
Personal income tax for a significant portion of the population are actually lower under Labor. They look after their constituents.

Shame that they make the top quartile pay so much more.

And the bifurcation - the point at which Labor stops helping you and starts to be materially different from the tax rates under the Liberals - starts at about $90,000 - $120,000 - i.e. a multiple of 1.0 to 1.3x average full-time wage, or 1.2 to 1.4x median full-time wage. Wouldn't call that "a lot more than" the average wage.

Even at $150,000, which is 1.6x full-time average wage or 2.0x median full-time wage, at the point where earners are about $6k a year different in tax (Labor vs Liberal proposals), I wouldn't call that a lot more than the average wage.

So the problem Labor faces is that a lot of people aspire to these sorts of figures, and their attack on the "top end of town" thus falls short.

But the point still stands.  Taxes are not always lower under Liberal.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #227 on: May 22, 2019, 11:44:51 PM »
Again, you're dancing around the fact that I qualified it accurately. Whereas you're trying to draw me onto points I never argued. You're shifting the goalposts.


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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #228 on: May 23, 2019, 12:01:40 AM »
I'm not sure how I feel about the post-election discussion. Apparently low SES areas favoured the Libs and high SES areas favoured Labour.

It seems like too convenient an explanation - I think there must be nuances somewhere. However, it does anecdotally ring true. Almost all of my inner city crowd voted - or said they would vote - for Labor or Greens. It's only a few of those like me who grew up in a working class background, have working class values (e.g. financial insecurity - something that those who grew up rich would never understand) and still class ourselves as working class/battlers that voted Libs.

marty998

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #229 on: May 23, 2019, 12:11:46 AM »
I'm not sure how I feel about the post-election discussion. Apparently low SES areas favoured the Libs and high SES areas favoured Labour.

It seems like too convenient an explanation - I think there must be nuances somewhere. However, it does anecdotally ring true. Almost all of my inner city crowd voted - or said they would vote - for Labor or Greens. It's only a few of those like me who grew up in a working class background, have working class values (e.g. financial insecurity - something that those who grew up rich would never understand) and still class ourselves as working class/battlers that voted Libs.

Bloop stop it, you are neither a battler nor working class. You have multiple properties, having just bought a car for $100k are looking to buy a McLaren for double that just for fun in a few years, and between you and your partner have the ability to spend $20,000 a year just on food.

Need I go on?

No, you most definitely are not a battler, and you're trolling everyone by describing yourself as one.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #230 on: May 23, 2019, 12:17:22 AM »
I'm a battler - my wog parents came here with nothing, we went to public schools and had to work our way up. I'm not a struggling battler, but I'm a battler like all the other self-employed people who aren't Anglos, got called out on our funny accents and Mediterranean complexions, and didn't enjoy much privilege growing up. We may now have high incomes, but the old conservative values still hold sway.

I think if I came from a white, rich family, I might have different values. But it's in the blood.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #231 on: May 23, 2019, 12:21:32 AM »
Nope. Your parents might have been battlers, but if you're privileged enough to be paying $50k a year in income tax and $20k a year in GST you are not a battler.

You may have been a battler at some point, but you are well into the very top strata of society now.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #232 on: May 23, 2019, 04:56:13 AM »
One of my favourite songs is by Frankie Chavez, "Fight", which begins: everyone around me's got a story to tell, one way or another it's a livin' hell.

And I'm never sure if he's being sympathetic or sarcastic.

Being middle class is such a struggle. Sniff.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #233 on: May 23, 2019, 07:14:10 AM »
Electorates that swung to the Coalition were generally:
- Poorer
- Less well educated
- Less well employed
- Had fewer younger people aged 18-34 or older people aged over 80
- Had fewer recent migrants or people born overseas

The converse applied for electorates that swung to Labor.

In Sydney, the seats that swung to the Coalition in Sydney were in the more disadvantaged areas west of the "Red Rooster Line", while the well to do eastern seats swung to Labor.

The full analysis is here:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/may/22/the-eight-charts-that-help-explain-why-the-coalition-won-the-2019-australian-election

So it was amazing electioneering by the Coalition - that they could prompt the poor to vote for tax cuts for the rich.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #234 on: May 23, 2019, 01:37:56 PM »
Religion / faith may also play a part. Western Sydney also has more actively religious people who may be more socially conservative.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #235 on: May 23, 2019, 10:36:19 PM »

So it was amazing electioneering by the Coalition - that they could prompt the poor to vote for tax cuts for the rich.
It's tax cuts for lower-income people, too. At around $1,000 for those on incomes of minimum wage or so, it's not huge - but it will make a difference.

Labor has unfortunately forgotten it used to be the party of the working class. If it had some policies to create working class jobs then the working and unemployed classes might have a reason to vote for them.

But again, people here are focusing on Lib vs Lab, and forgetting that the primary vote declined for both of them. Nationally, people were saying "fuck you both" and going for Greens, UAP and PHON. Over 25% of the electorate feel that the major parties do not represent their views. The second and later preferences of the people who dislike the major parties are determining elections. ALP would have a lot fewer seats without Greens help, and Lib would have a lot fewer seats without UAP/PHON help.

A 1 or 2 seat majority does not exactly indicate a sweeping mandate for any party, but increasingly this is what we are seeing in federal and state parliaments both. Consider that if we had a parliamentary system where seats were allocated by share of party vote (as parliaments like Israel's do, or half of NZ's parliament), neither party would be anywhere near a majority.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2019, 12:17:20 AM »
re: battlers

Someone once wrote,


"I was oppressed and down as I didn't have the bare necessities to survive. All I had was clean water to drink, electricity at the flick of a switch, free education, accessible and mostly free health care, a working government, public transport, clean air, social security and shops full of a massive range of food and no gunfire on the streets.

"But I pulled myself out of the shit and made something of myself. Now I wear shoes and clothes made by 12 year old vietnamese children, I have a phone made from rare metals mined by 10 year olds in the Congo and drive a car built by a company that made weapons for the Nazis. So I guess I'm a survivor."

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2019, 01:16:22 AM »
re: battlers

Someone once wrote,


"I was oppressed and down as I didn't have the bare necessities to survive. All I had was clean water to drink, electricity at the flick of a switch, free education, accessible and mostly free health care, a working government, public transport, clean air, social security and shops full of a massive range of food and no gunfire on the streets.

"But I pulled myself out of the shit and made something of myself. Now I wear shoes and clothes made by 12 year old vietnamese children, I have a phone made from rare metals mined by 10 year olds in the Congo and drive a car built by a company that made weapons for the Nazis. So I guess I'm a survivor."

Hehe. Very funny.


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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #238 on: May 26, 2019, 06:11:13 AM »
Bit sad to see so much invective being poured upon the "working class" who voted Coalition "against their interests" - I think you will find that people can tell when inner city elites think they are superior, and will vote against that smugness!

If the economic left really wanted to reach out to working class Australia, they'd offer an olive branch, not derision! It's bad faith and bad politics.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #239 on: May 27, 2019, 04:03:54 PM »
This is an example of the thinking (or lack thereof) I'm talking about:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-28/victoria-has-problems-other-states-would-love-to-have/11154536

If you're getting into debt during a time of economic boom, what are you going to do at a time of economic bust? It's like the contractor who gets a $100k 6 month contract and parties it up even knowing that they may not work at all in the following 6 months. Nobody questions this. That is, there is no party which is economically conservative. There's a whole half of the political spectrum (social conservative vs liberal and economic conservative vs liberal) which is ignored.

With a growing population, obviously money must be spent on infrastructure. But I question whether it is prudent to get into debt if we don't actually need to. Again: if we're spending more than we earn when we're rich, what do we do when we're poor? And this does happen in economies.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #240 on: May 28, 2019, 01:21:09 AM »
Budget bottom lines are not really all that good at separating capital expenditure from recurrent operating expenditure.

I don't mind seeing borrowing for infrastructure, but there needs to be better transparency around isolating specific borrowing to specific infrastructure projects. Some of these roads will still be there in a hundred years and 10 recessions hence, so it absolutely makes sense to borrow for them now.

What we have at the moment though is haphazard borrowing for every purpose when the "consolidated revenue fund" doesn't meet next weeks wages bill.

I am curious if state governments expected the stamp duty rivers of gold to continue upwards at boom levels indefinitely.... now THAT would be something to hang them on.

I will fess up here in my belief the Sydney North West Metro would be a dud. Well done to the State Government for delivering it, and the sooner it is rolled out across the rest of the network the better.


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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #242 on: May 29, 2019, 02:01:46 AM »
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/i-am-the-bludger-the-politicians-warn-you-about

That's brutal, that poor girl's circumstances.

She makes a number of good points but the one group she doesn't criticise is her parents. Obviously there are some generational issues there that are too late to be solved for the older ones, but I can't help feel that a parent should be saying to their child "no, don't help me, go live your best life". Her parents have ruined the chances of this girl escaping poverty, not just "the system".

Newstart needs to be raised to help people like her. The budget can afford it.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #243 on: May 29, 2019, 06:21:14 PM »
I agree that Newstart needs to be raised. But I am less sure about she and her parents walking away from each-other. When faced with a society which has let you down, family and ethnic ties become more important. The clerk at Centrelink may turn you away uncaringly because you didn't tick the right box or were 5 minutes late to an appointment they'd start 40 minutes late, the police may harass you, the social worker may come for a while and then stop for no reason - but family will always be there, every day.

The well-off are not required to abandon their family to have a decent life, why should the poor be required to do so? If the state or Commonwealth cannot support people unless people abandon family, then we should not have a state or Commonwealth at all.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #244 on: May 29, 2019, 08:12:35 PM »
Min wage raised by 3%. Probably a fair outcome in the end, maybe slightly on the high side given that it is more than both inflation and average wage growth.


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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #245 on: May 30, 2019, 02:00:10 AM »
Min wage raised by 3%. Probably a fair outcome in the end, maybe slightly on the high side given that it is more than both inflation and average wage growth.

Maybe it is what is needed to get wages growing and inflation off the floor.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #246 on: May 30, 2019, 02:21:30 AM »
I agree that Newstart needs to be raised. But I am less sure about she and her parents walking away from each-other. When faced with a society which has let you down, family and ethnic ties become more important. The clerk at Centrelink may turn you away uncaringly because you didn't tick the right box or were 5 minutes late to an appointment they'd start 40 minutes late, the police may harass you, the social worker may come for a while and then stop for no reason - but family will always be there, every day.

The well-off are not required to abandon their family to have a decent life, why should the poor be required to do so? If the state or Commonwealth cannot support people unless people abandon family, then we should not have a state or Commonwealth at all.

The difference is the poor girl here was let down by those same family members. To what extent "society" failed her when her relatives allowed her to become homeless at 14 depends on your flavour of politic. I don't know what the answer is there, other than a safety net should be available to every homeless child. Should that child then many years later grow up, get their life together, and then go back to an environment that restarts the cycle again, just for the sake of family? Again, I don't know except to say it's very individual circumstantial.

I understand what you are saying though.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #247 on: May 30, 2019, 02:42:55 AM »
"There is no point gilding the lily," he said. "That is the truth. I want to appeal to people who are successful as well as lift people up. Labor will be seen as pro-business as well as pro-worker."

Albanese is making the right kind of noises - this is good.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #248 on: May 30, 2019, 04:49:47 PM »
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/i-am-the-bludger-the-politicians-warn-you-about

Interesting little clip Kyle, thanks for posting. There is so much one could unpack in there. What I learnt most from personal experience as a single parent and from working in centrelink offices in the worst parts of Sydney for a year or 2, and then from working in one of the lower SES and rougher hospitals in Sydney, is that most folk are one or 2 big hits of bad luck away from destitution. (mustachians with a stash might be the exception). Working your ass off and having the right attitude is only a partial protection and can fail if you are a victim of sufficiently unfortunate circumstances. For those already mired in chronic deprivation its even more complicated..family are all you can count on, and yet family will also drag your further down and prevent you from escaping.

Newstart is very low, but is not intended to be a permanent benefit. Yet that's what it becomes for some. I don't know what the solution is.

I try to practice gratitude for my circumstances and skip judgement.

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Re: #Auspol - Australia Votes 2019!
« Reply #249 on: May 31, 2019, 03:57:22 AM »
Newstart is very low, but is not intended to be a permanent benefit. Yet that's what it becomes for some. I don't know what the solution is.
Substantial relocation assistance to job opportunities anywhere in the country. Life's a bitch, and then you move out of Sydney/Melbourne.