You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!

[clarkai]

Makes me want to do a poll: Which is weirder: Not eating any meat, milk, eggs, fish, honey, etc, or eatting squirrel?

Honestly, I don't really care if people accept it, I just find it strange that since I'm a vegan, all my food becomes *vegan* food. I mean, the hummus was vegan before I was.

I love it when people say they can't eat vegan food, because the mental image of them basically saying they can't eat any vegetables, fruits, grains, legumes, mushrooms, etc is just too ridiculous.

[brewer12345]

Wait, what is the alleged problem with honey?

[clarkai]

Depends on who you ask. Definitionally, it's not vegan, because it's an animal product. (This is the part where most people start looking at you weird, if they haven't already).

I personally don't eat it because I don't do well with concentrated forms of sugar. You can also look at the apicultural practices combined with over all agricultural practice and the whole problem of colony collapse disorder, which there is still a lot of disagreement over. A lot of vegans have a problem with it because beekeepers take the honey, pollen, and queen jelly from the hives (replacing them with cheaper and less nutritionally valuable products such as refined sugar), requeen hives, and ship bee hives all over the country, aiding the spread of disease. Other vegans don't see it as that big of a deal.

[clarkai]

I'm overjoyed this topic gets discussed. Today I read a positive article about veganism in a right wing magazine. Written by Matthew Scully who wrote a marvelous book called "Dominion".

Do you happen to have a link to that article? I'm very interested.

[grantmeaname]

Maybe this one?

[Russ]

As time has gone by though I find I'm getting even more strict with my diet, especially with salt. I think a high salt diet increases blood pressure which eventually enlarges the heart which leads to heart disease. Therefore, I eat out much less than I used to.

ok

make sure you get enough

cooking at home all the time and never adding salt is just as unhealthy

[RetiredAt63]

This has turned into a great food discussion, thanks to everyone!

Foods labeled vegan - how funny/odd.  Just because they are totally plant-based doesn't mean they are only for vegans.  Lots of people who eat meat also enjoy lots of plant-based foods - very few of us are actually carnivores, we are omnivores, plants and animals!  Its all in the labeling, just like saying a plant product is cholesterol-free is true but irrelevant, only animal products contain cholesterol, plants don't make it.  Marketers will say anything to make their products look more attractive.

Salt - I find that the less I eat processed foods, the more free salt I eat - it is not abundant in my diet anymore.

Honey - I had never thought about it in vegan terms - yes it is made by animals (bees) but it is a plant product (concentrated nectar).  I suppose I look at it like wool and other animal fibres, no animals are harmed in the harvesting. Interesting factoid, the US is the world's largest producer of mohair.

As with animal products (how the animals are raised matters) how the honey is harvested matters.  Top bar beekeepers tend to harvest in spring, so there is no danger of the bees running out over the winter, some beekeepers are careful with fall harvest so they don't have to supplement in spring.  One thing no-one will do is supplement with honey from other hives in the spring, because of the possibility of disease transmission.  CCD is not something beekeepers have a lot of control over, since no-one is totally sure about its cause, although nicotinoid insecticides are now suspect.  Beekeepers have no control over what farmers spray, unfortunately, so it is up to depts. of agriculture, and agricultural legislation to intervene here.  The EU has banned these pesticides, so it will be interesting to see if that helps.  Top bar beekeepers wonder if the pre-formed brood foundation affects colony health since the bees have no choice about brood cell size.

Of course anyone avoiding excessive sugar needs to avoid honey, maple syrup, etc. since they are all massively concentrated sugars, and the small amounts of minerals and enzymes they might contain don't offset that.

[RetiredAt63]

Since fish don't talk, it is hard to ask them if they are in pain.  All we can do is look at behaviour and brain activity.  As I said, the CCAC categorizes all animals with well-developed nervous systems as feeling some degree of pain.  That eliminates most invertebrates, who seem to be showing nociception only.

The take-home message for me is that we need to treat animals with respect.  For game animals, including fish,  that means a "good death" - I don't hunt, but I hang out with people who do, and they make sure they kill cleanly and fast, no wounded animal running off into the forest to die a long and painful death.  Not acceptable.  Same for fishing.

Re mercury contamination, it depends on where and what they are eating.  For example, there used to be massive industrial mercury contamination in the St. Lawrence off Cornwall, but now there is very little - the sediments have sequestered it.  Eels (bottom feeders) from there contain very little mercury. Fisheries and Oceans Canada tests lobsters (marine bottom feeders), and mercury content is very location specific.

This is interesting to me, as an amateur biologist, because in my own research and in most of the research I've read, they made the distinction between nociception (reaction to noxious stimulus, unconscious as in our own reflex arc {you withdraw your hand from something hot before you've consciously felt the pain}) which would cover bacteria, and pain (reaction to noxious stimulus which is processed by the brain (and thus a conscious feeling) and has an emotional component). I probably spent too much time reading research articles, but it's interesting to me. I do admit that I skipped right on down to bivalves, specifically mussels and oysters, because they clearly do not have brains,  have only rudimentary ganglia, and lack endogenous opiates or opiate receptors to inhibit pain. This to me (and a boat load of others) shows that what they have are rudimentary reflex arcs, rather than a true ability to feel pain.

Of course, they are my only exception for a number of other reasons to, relating to their effect on the environment, content of B12 and Omega 3s, and surprisingly to me when I looked it up, have one of the lowest mercury contamination of seafood.

[CommonCents]

I love it when people say they can't eat vegan food, because the mental image of them basically saying they can't eat any vegetables, fruits, grains, legumes, mushrooms, etc is just too ridiculous.

What's hard to understand about what they are saying?  I think it's being deliberately obtuse to interpret it as a refusal to eat vegetables, fruits, etc., but rather that they can't/won't eat solely a vegan diet and give up eating dairy, eggs etc.

[brewer12345]

I have thought a fair bit about where I fall on animal ethics.  I hunt and fish, one daughter is a vegetarian, DW does not eat red meat, etc.  I am very comfy being an omnivore.  I think that is how humans evolved and it is what it is.  However, I don't hold with unnecessary or institutionalized animal suffering and I don't in general trust the food industry.  So I fish in waters I know to be clean and try to catch or buy fish that are on the sustainable end of things.  I hunt generously populated critters and try hard to ensure a clean kill and ethical hunting (I have missed out on a lot of meat because I insist on closing the distance to the point where it is real hard to miss).  I try real hard to avoid factory farmed meat, and I won't touch pork at all due to the state of that industry (feral hog would be just fine, though).  We try to eat local and we usually eat pretty far down the food chain (I am on a heirloom bean company's list for "ship me the goodies every couple of months, you choose which"), and we pay attention to what we buy in general.  I am taking delivery of a package of bees on Saturday for a backyard hive.  Honey harvesting is a secondary or tertiary reason for beekeeping, so while I will rob the bees if there is a surplus I will be very conservative about what I take (and if I take it in marginal years).  I have not decided on requeening, but if it does not harm the colony to pass on it I will probably skip it.  If my hive swarms, I will either attempt to catch the swarm and set up a second hive, or let them go and try their luck as a wild colony.

[clarkai]

I used to be one of those people who thought vegans and vegetarians were a bit silly/overly sensitive/whatever. I grew up on a small family farm where we raised much of our own food, including beef, lamb, chicken, eggs, and milk. I ate animal products all through college, and even went paleo for about two years.

What lead to the shift to veganism for me was working on an organic, small family run chicken farm that offered supposedly pasture-raised chickens. From their website and photos, you would have thought that this was a great example of humane and healthy farming. What I saw (and breathed) while I worked was enough to put me off chicken-  mostly from disgust, but there was some glimmer of ethics there too. This farm happened to be well known at the time, occasionally touted by local restaurants as their sustainable and humane meat source. I admit that it's an extrapolation, but I figure, if they they could charge $6/lb for whole chickens and the chickens in the grocery store are $.99/lb... well, I'm going to assume that even accounting for economies of scale, that $.99 chicken came from worse conditions.

The next step was eating vegan for 30 days, which I did primarily to challenge my prejudices against vegans and vegetarians. Whlep, we all how that turned out! My asthma, which had always been mild but nevertheless a rather annoying limitation, went away, my kitchen was so much easier to clean, and the grocery bill went down a significant amount as well. After those thirty days, I didn't want to go back to eating animals. A few more months of eating vegan passed, and I realized that while I'd always espoused the opinion that if you're going to eat meat, you should be willing to kill it yourself, the only time that I'd actually been able to kill anything was to put it out of misery. A few more months went by, and I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

[brewer12345]

I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

I think that it is worth the contemplation needed to decide this.  The world of all meat coming prepackaged in serving-size portions has taken something away from both us and the animals.

[clarkai]

I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

I think that it is worth the contemplation needed to decide this.  The world of all meat coming prepackaged in serving-size portions has taken something away from both us and the animals.

Right! Back before I went vegan, more than one person told me I should "just get my meat from the store" like a normal person, because it was less cruel. I'm not sure how they figured that equation.

[Squirrel away]

The next step was eating vegan for 30 days, which I did primarily to challenge my prejudices against vegans and vegetarians. Whlep, we all how that turned out! My asthma, which had always been mild but nevertheless a rather annoying limitation, went away, my kitchen was so much easier to clean, and the grocery bill went down a significant amount as well. After those thirty days, I didn't want to go back to eating animals. A few more months of eating vegan passed, and I realized that while I'd always espoused the opinion that if you're going to eat meat, you should be willing to kill it yourself, the only time that I'd actually been able to kill anything was to put it out of misery. A few more months went by, and I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

That is fabulous.:) I'm glad it gave you health benefits too. I used to get regular sinus infections which disappeared when I switched from vegetarian to vegan.

[2527]

I eat only a very small amount of animal products, and I eat a lot of vegetables, nuts, berries, and beans.  Among non-vegans, I am probably in the bottom 5% in terms of animal consumption.  My problems are with chocolate, sugar, and refined carbohydrates.

If anybody has not heard of it, I recommend a glance at Dr. Joel Fuhrman's Eat to Live. 

[genesismachine]

I just wanted to say, I wasn't going to post originally. Then, I saw comments about preachy vegans. I'll just say, I work out at a gym with ~10-20 vegans, and nobody there is 'preachy.' I don't think I've ever met one. My guess is there are a lot of vegans out there you see everyday, but don't know about.

I play this game at work where I play 'who can find out I'm vegan last'. ~1/2 my  coworkers for ~2 years don't know I'm vegan. I find it hilarious.

[Balance]

My personal story is that I tried going Paleo and accidentally lost 20lbs, my acne, indigestion, chronic ear infections and dry skin.

I eat a dozen eggs a week, sausage and drink raw milk and eat plenty of butter from grass fed cows. Raw milk/butter is the only dairy I eat. I eat plenty of meat/seafood and fruits/veggies and nuts/legumes. I pretty much cut out all grains including wheat (read Wheat Belly). I stopped drinking soda and cut out most sugar treats. I lost over 20lbs and am near 40yrs old and in the best shape of my life.

I was allergic to store bought milk and it was giving me 3-4 ear infections a year. Those are gone! Meat is not the issue (unless it conflics with some personal belief) The real issue is industrialized food like wheat and dairy. The stuff is toxic. Organic is the best, and is money well spent considering healthcare from eating bad food cost a lot more.

I am in a similar boat. I went Paleo over 6 years ago due to having bad allergies, ear infections, IBS and reflux.  All of those things were gone quickly after I dropped the gluten and dairy. My diet consists mostly of local vegetables, fruits, pastured eggs, wild caught fish and grass fed beef.  I feel absolutely great. I haven't been sick even a single day agree that industrialized foods are the problem which include foods containing rancid PUFA's. Pre-paleo my diet consisted mostly of oatmeal every morning, whole wheat since starting this diet.  My wife has been a vegetarian ever since she was a little girl.  It is funny because I eat way more veggies and fruits than she does on my paleo diet. I sandwiches and pastas, and skinless chicken breasts. I tried vegetarianism for about a year which made me feel horribly.  Everyone responds differently but I believe giving up the processed crap is 90% of the battle.   

I would look into Denise Minger's blog http://rawfoodsos.com/.  She is a raw foodie who was vegan for many years.  She eats mostly raw fruits and vegetables but also now includes some raw lightly cooked fish and oysters. She had some great analysis on The China Study as well as many other nutrition related publications.

[Vilgan]

As I've tried and seen friends/family try various eating styles, I think there are a few things that I believe pretty solidly now:

Some people do NOT need meat. I did great on a vegan diet as did both of my siblings.
Some people NEED meat. My fiance gets super low energy without it no matter what we do and bounces off walls with incredible energy when she does eat meat.
The more you work out and the more energy you need, the harder it is to do it without meat. When my brother started running marathons and 70+ miles a week and had a busy work schedule he had trouble staying vegan and now eats chicken and other meat occasionally.
Eat FOOD, mostly vegetables is a good general approach for pretty much everyone imo. We've all ended up essentially Paleo and have flourished. My fiance and I both feel 23894082342 times healthier than we did back in the "eat tons of carbs and processed foods and baked goods" days. Her allergies have mostly disappeared, my energy level and hers are 2-3x what they used to be, I've lost weight and added some muscle while not thinking about exercise/calories at all.
Other details vary by person. Dairy messes me up pretty bad, while she suffers no ill effects from dairy other than milk. Bread is sorta bad for me (especially from a weight gain perspective) but totally messes her up.

I feel like the details of what works best for each individual are figured out over a life time. For many, vegan is a great solution and is certainly a lot better than the standard american diet. For others, adding some meat to the mix is essential. But as long as what you are eating is FOOD and not a food like substance, you'll be better off.

I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!

[grantmeaname]

I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!

That's the worst. Tofu and tempeh I'm down with. Chikkin, less so.

[ShortInSeattle]

I was vegetarian (and at times vegan) for 12 years. I started eating meat about 1 year ago, for health reasons and am doing much better on a Paleo-ish diet.

Eating meat has been difficult for me emotionally. But I can't deny the health benefits in my particular case. We buy organic/local/humane as much as possible. Factory farming is a great evil.

To the OP I'd say to avoid getting drama associated with your diet, it's best to be private about your choice. When someone questions your food just smile and give a brief response that doesn't invite further discussion.

"You're a Vegetarian?"
"Yup."

"But WHY??"
"Several reasons. Mostly for my health.... (Immediate subject change)"

Most people who quiz a vegetarian aren't really looking for your point of view. Many will get defensive or twitchy. Just smile, answer briefly, and move on to something more interesting.

[bUU]

I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!

That's the worst. Tofu and tempeh I'm down with. Chikkin, less so.

I think it depends. Tofu and tempeh are both processed foods, which makes them no better than the worst of the various fake chicken products. However at least one brand of fake chicken product (my favorite brand, Quorn) is mycoprotein - essentially, mushroom-like stuff. That may not make it "natural" but it makes it a cut-above other fake chicken products, and again, no more a processed food than tofu or tempeh. In recipes the mycoprotein can work just like "perfect every time" chicken cutlets, and unless poorly cooked, without any of the rubbery side-effects you get from other fake chicken products.

[clarkai]

I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!

That's the worst. Tofu and tempeh I'm down with. Chikkin, less so.

I think it depends. Tofu and tempeh are both processed foods, which makes them no better than the worst of the various fake chicken products. However at least one brand of fake chicken product (my favorite brand, Quorn) is mycoprotein - essentially, mushroom-like stuff. That may not make it "natural" but it makes it a cut-above other fake chicken products, and again, no more a processed food than tofu or tempeh. In recipes the mycoprotein can work just like "perfect every time" chicken cutlets, and unless poorly cooked, without any of the rubbery side-effects you get from other fake chicken products.

I'm curious why you consider tempeh to be a processed food? It's just fermented soy beans, which seems just as "unprocessed" as cheese, sourdough, cheeses, keifer, wine, beer, etc, etc.

Tofu I can kinda get, but really, it's a fairly old food (been around for about 2000 years according to wikipedia). It's just soy milk that's been coagulated, again very similar to fresh cheeses such as queso fresco and ricotta.

Both of these are foods I could very easily make in my own kitchen, which is my personal cut off for processed vs unprocessed foods.

[bUU]

Tempeh is less processed than tofu, but it isn't like broccoli, eh? Also, I cannot make honey in my kitchen yet it is not a processed food. And I don't consider how long we've been eating something to be significant.

However, the point was to draw the distinction between mycoprotein and other fake chicken products. Please don't lose sight of that.

[brewer12345]

Eating meat has been difficult for me emotionally. But I can't deny the health benefits in my particular case. We buy organic/local/humane as much as possible. Factory farming is a great evil.

If you really want t know for sure how your meat was raised/killed/butchered, DIY.  Otherwise it is all just marketing.

[clarkai]

Tempeh is less processed than tofu, but it isn't like broccoli, eh? Also, I cannot make honey in my kitchen yet it is not a processed food. And I don't consider how long we've been eating something to be significant.

However, the point was to draw the distinction between mycoprotein and other fake chicken products. Please don't lose sight of that.

I think it's an interesting discussion and am genuinely curious, so I hope I haven't offended.

I don't eat fake meats myself. I do eat tempeh and tofu occasionally, and I recently became curious about mycoprotein, but have not tried it yet.

I was just curious because it is an interesting view point to say that tempeh is as bad as the worst of the fake meats, as opposed to mycoprotein, which in the end is just a fungus grown on a sugar syrup and then washed, instead of fungus grown on cooked soy beans.

As to honey, well, it's something that is collected from nature. To me, processed foods have to be made by humans. I think there is a spectrum between processed and natural foods, with raw foods on one end and stuff like cola and twinkles on the other. As soon as we begin cooking, blending, or fermenting, we begin to process our foods, and everyone draws their own line, often for very different and interesting reasons. I personally choose to eat foods (for the most part) that I could collect/grow/raise myself and and then processed into it's desired state in a manner that I could and would do in my kitchen.

[hoodedfalcon]

I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of diet, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his diet. Many of us judge the vegan diet quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Vegans like the OP who say they could care less about animal welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a vegan diet. I believe you should be free to eat as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your diet (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

Why? You say you see it as "unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical" but I feel listing such conclusions doesn't really explain anything.

[clarkai]

I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of diet, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his diet. Many of us judge the vegan diet quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Vegans like the OP who say they could care less about animal welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a vegan diet. I believe you should be free to eat as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your diet (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

I'd say the feeling is mutual, but honestly, it's not. I don't have any issue with anyone else's diet, and I certainly don't judge people because of it.

Maybe it is because I used to see vegans as silly, unnatural, etc, but I've come to my current diet after doing a lot of research into health, nutrition, and longevity. I've seen both sides, though admittedly I've never been in the middle (that is, I've never been vegetarian). I do think it's interesting to observe how judgemental/defensive people are about a personal choice that is not affecting anybody else.

I understand that what works for me does not necessarily work for anybody else, and everyone makes the choices they do based on their own experiences and ethics.

[Roland of Gilead]

I could only be a vegan if bacon were a vegetable.

[dweebyhawkeyes]

Why? You say you see it as "unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical" but I feel listing such conclusions doesn't really explain anything.

I think veganism is misaligned with our humanness. We all know that we are omnivores biologically, but veganism also undermines cultural and historical aspects of humanity. It rejects where we came from and what helps tie us together. I see the disparity as large, arrogant, and offensive.

First off, thanks for sharing your prejudice. That was brave of you!

So I personally feel some of the most awesome attributes of mankind are adaptability and tolerance. I'm not quite understanding why you feel it's okay to decide someone is "less human" because of his or her choices; I believe we are more than our biology. As for "where we came from": my favorite subject is history, my friend, and after a lifetime of leisurely study I can guarantee you it doesn't take long to find practices worth rejecting.

I dare you to actively love those who you previously thought less of, especially for such a trivial thing as diet. Try not to be offended by something that doesn't affect you. If someone has made you feel small for your choices in the past, I'm sorry. But not everyone is like that whatsoever. Open your mind, soften your heart. People (most of the time) are awesome. I promise.

[Davids]

If everyone was a vegan then this world would be overrun by cows in the streets, chickens clucking around and pigs getting sloppy everywhere. I imagine hitting a cow when you drive would cause more damage than hitting a deer.

[Squirrel away]

Some of these comments are surprising to me (and unintentionally hilarious) at times. I would have expected there to be more vegetarians and vegans on this forum as it is a less mainstream, often more frugal way of life that I thought would appeal to the type of people on here.

[grantmeaname]

More than what? Clearly there are tons of them.

[NinetyFour]

I am unnatural and arrogant a vegetarian and consume very little dairy.

[RetiredAt63]

I am fine with adults who think about their food choices and follow them, for whatever reason.  That includes Paleo, low carb, mainstream, vegetarian and vegan, plus any other combination.

I am not happy with children being denied essential fatty acids and other fats essential for brain growth.  There has been a huge surge in behavioural problems since I was a kid, and I can't help but wonder if dropping so many animal fats from children's diets is part of the cause.  Example - skim or 1% milk for children.  I don't blame the parents, they have been told that a low-fat diet is good, but I do blame the nutritionists for this nonsense.

Where I have a problem is when people impose some "moral" view on their pets.  I have met vegetarians (not sure where they were on the vegetarian to vegan spectrum) who wanted to feed pets a vegetarian diet.  This is absurd.  Dogs are omnivores, in that they will eat the occasional fruit or vegetable (my dog loves peas, my parent's dog loved carrots) but they are basically carnivores, and definitely not grain eaters.  Cats are obligate carnivores. 

I met a young woman once at a home and garden show, who was making an Environment Canada rep very upset (he was there to talk about invasive species, not pet diets, poor man).  She was going on about how good/moral it was for her cat to eat a vegetarian diet, and he was trying to explain why this was not good for the cat, in a nice scientific, anatomy/physiology way.  I gave him a break and told her the same things in different words, and then gave up and left her to him.  She was so in love with the moral issues of vegetarianism that she could not see things from the cat's viewpoint, and she seemed to genuinely love her cat.  But she was so fixated on the "bad to eat meat" viewpoint that she would not listen.  It made me wonder why she had a carnivore as a pet.  Why not a nice cute herbivorous guinea pig?

Do I act on this? Yes, my dog is fed a grain free commercial diet - this does not have to be expensive, I use store brands (Costco and IGA).  My dog is healthy and her bowel movements are small, which shows she is digesting this diet well.

Sorry for being so long, this is a sore spot for me.

TL:DR - We need saturated fat, carnivorous pets need meat and no grains.

[grantmeaname]

That's about how I feel about vegetarian chicken feed.

[clarkai]

Some of these comments are surprising to me (and unintentionally hilarious) at times. I would have expected there to be more vegetarians and vegans on this forum as it is a less mainstream, often more frugal way of life that I thought would appeal to the type of people on here.

Right! I mean the savings in getting your protein from legumes instead of meat is huge! That, and cleaning up after cooking is so much easier. Not to mention you don't have to deal with cross contamination and food born illness nearly so much.

[Roland of Gilead]

Right! I mean the savings in getting your protein from legumes instead of meat is huge! That, and cleaning up after cooking is so much easier. Not to mention you don't have to deal with cross contamination and food born illness nearly so much.

Well, it isn't always safe if you are vegetarian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Germany_E._coli_O104:H4_outbreak

I always cook meat to a high enough temperature to kill bacteria but a lot of people eat raw vegetables and some are very hard to wash correctly.

[dweebyhawkeyes]

I dare you to actively love those who you previously thought less of, especially for such a trivial thing as diet. Try not to be offended by something that doesn't affect you. If someone has made you feel small for your choices in the past, I'm sorry. But not everyone is like that whatsoever. Open your mind, soften your heart. People (most of the time) are awesome. I promise.

More arrogance and, to me, prejudice. I'm not sure what you are basing these judgements off of. I don't love vegans any less than I would another person.

Oh! I was basing that judgement off this:

It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

Maybe there's a different connotation where you live, but around here "thinking little of someone" is a complete rejection of that person and their actions; it's no small statement, and particularly one you would never say about someone you love. Bummer that came across differently to me than you perhaps wanted it.

I guess you are evoking my curiosity more and more: what is it that gives you the power to call me intellectually lazy and arrogant? You are hurling insults without giving me any advice or alternatives. I simply thought I was expressing what I feel humanity to be; I was presenting my own opinion that happens to be in contrast to yours. Meat-eating, to me, isn't that special. Thousands of species do it. That's why I resent having you tell me that my choices are somehow less human than yours. I disagree entirely with your premise, but at least it's refreshing compared to the usual complaints, hence why I'm seeking to understand you. However, you are making these statements based on "evidence" you haven't produced, and claiming my statements arrogant without reason why. And then telling me you don't want to argue. Them's fightin' words!

Prejudice means assumptions you make about a person based on attributes of that person, yes? You learn someone is vegan, then seek for confirmation bias about why that person is arrogant. How am I arrogant? Inquiring minds want to know. I don't want to be arrogant; I want to be kind and loving and understanding, but you've got to help me out here. Give me your best advice. But no, I'm not going to start eating meat. :]

[Squirrel away]

More than what? Clearly there are tons of them.

I just saw this.:) I haven't been on this forum that long but I haven't noticed that many vegans on here. I first saw MMM referenced on a veg forum so I would have thought that the ethos marries quite well with veganism as the people on here seem to be quite well educated and intelligent people and the vegans I have encountered fall into that category.

[NinetyFour]

the people on here seem to be quite well educated and intelligent people and the vegans I have encountered fall into that category.

Give it some time, though.  You'll soon find out that we vegans are unnatural, arrogant, and offensive.

[Peter]

How am I arrogant?
.
.
.
Give me your best advice. But no, I'm not going to start eating meat.

...

[alibean]

I was going to answer the OP but it looks like this thread has made a lot of twists and turns. 

Anyway, I find it interesting that there are people that eat McDonalds every day, but mention you're vegan eating real food and people are suddenly worried about your health.   I am a moral vegan though so my response is probably different from yours.  I tell people that initially, I became a vegan for moral reasons.  I don't agree at all with factory farming and I don't want to support that.  I also think it's very strange to drink another species milk.  Since I stopped consuming dairy, my asthma, allergies and GI issues have almost completely resolved.  I usually find that people are just curious because it's a different life choice.   Most people actually then talk about how they are trying to eat less meat or only eat fish or poultry, don't eat red meat or processed food, etc.  I think people just like to talk about food. 

I'm not really (ever) interested in discussing whether it's right or wrong.  It works for our family.  Our health seems to be better for it and it's a way of eating that we all feel good about.  We're omnivores so we can survive for the most part eating just about anything.  We eat in a way that we feel helps us to thrive. 

[Adventine]

I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

I think that it is worth the contemplation needed to decide this.  The world of all meat coming prepackaged in serving-size portions has taken something away from both us and the animals.

I recently switched to a mostly vegetarian diet (for financial/convenience reasons, not ethical ones), but I've always had an unexplained aversion to the raw packaged meat one sees in supermarkets. These ideas are striking. I need to think more about them.

[Longstride]

I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of diet, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his diet. Many of us judge the vegan diet quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Vegans like the OP who say they could care less about animal welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a vegan diet. I believe you should be free to eat as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your diet (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of religion, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his religion. Many of us judge the Christian religion quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Christians like the OP who say they could care less about Christ's welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a Christian religion. I believe you should be free to worship as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your religion (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are Christian. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

(I mean no offense to the Christian faith or any other - I only seek to point out how outlooks such as garth's have, you know, caused wars and stuff, no big deal)

[Peter]

I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of religion, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his religion. Many of us judge the Christian religion quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Christians like the OP who say they could care less about Christ's welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a Christian religion. I believe you should be free to worship as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your religion (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are Christian. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

(I mean no offense to the Christian faith or any other - I only seek to point out how outlooks such as garth's have, you know, caused wars and stuff, no big deal)

And your point? Both paragraphs are written with a criticism of only the actions/intent of the person in question, and show restraint not to stray off topic or to disrespect the respondent as a human being. Shouldn't we be allowed to openly criticize and admonish the actions others take that we disagree with?

Many a war has been started because someone couldn't take the healthy criticism as portrayed above and respect a difference of opinion.

[S0VERE1GN]

Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

[Zikoris]

Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.

[Emilyngh]

Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.

I totally agree.   I am vegetarian myself, but follow above with regards to being vegan (eat our own chicken eggs at home, but only eat dairy when out on occasion).   

I used to be a strict vegan, but stopped because I found it too hard to follow 100% (I found milk derivatives in soy cheese....) and for some reason, there's pressure to conform to a label or not do it at all.    I've decided that if being vegan is a good thing (and I believe it to be for the health benefits of a whole plant-based diet, the environment, reducing animal suffering, etc), then doing it 90% of the time is better than just saying "fuck it, I can't be perfect."

[Squirrel away]

the people on here seem to be quite well educated and intelligent people and the vegans I have encountered fall into that category.

Give it some time, though.  You'll soon find out that we vegans are unnatural, arrogant, and offensive.

Oh, of course. :)

[S0VERE1GN]

Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.

yep. was vegan for about a year and I loved it. Work environment caused me to change to a more meat and dairy based diet. I don't know if you had a trick to stop this, but when I was Full Vegan I would eat 6-8 times a day AT LEAST.  had to constantly fuel the furnace.