You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!

[Mr.Macinstache]

I'm not the OP, but the documentaries that have changed my eating are:

Forks over knives
Fat, sick, and nearly dead
Food, Inc

Forks over knives convinced us to eat plant based whole foods diet. We don't prohibit meat and dairy,but we have cut it way down. Meat and dairy is now a flavoring, not a food group. It's often easy to skip it all together.

Great movies, all. Although I was a little less impressed with Forks and the China Study than you. Vegan can be a very healthy diet, but I don't see veggies curing cancer, and the data from the study showed people who eat less meat and more vegetables and fruits were healthier. It did not find a vegetable only diet was healthier than one with little meat.

All the same, I enjoyed it a lot. You might want to try FRESH, which I think is streaming on Netflix right now. Joel Salatin, the guy at the beginning of the movie, raises his chickens same as we do. Or rather, we raise ours same as he does, since we copied his system. :)

I love Joel Salatin. It's not that beef, pork, etc is bad for you. It the industrialition of it that is. Raw milk is amazing and I drink it everyday. Going off of store bought milk and drinking raw has gotten rid of my spring and fall allergies. More $$$$ saved on treating those symptoms!

[AJ]

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Wait, what? What "essential fats" only come from animals? The only essential fatty acids I am aware of are omega 3 and 6 - both of which are highly available from plants. A google search of "essential fats" didn't yield anything of value. Source?

Agreed that processed foods such as margarine are unhealthy, but that seems like a red herring. Both omnivores and vegetarians can choose to eat processed or whole foods.

[Mr.Macinstache]

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Wait, what? What "essential fats" only come from animals? The only essential fatty acids I am aware of are omega 3 and 6 - both of which are highly available from plants. A google search of "essential fats" didn't yield anything of value. Source?

Agreed that processed foods such as margarine are unhealthy, but that seems like a red herring. Both omnivores and vegetarians can choose to eat processed or whole foods.

There is little saturated fat and no cholesterol though. Despite the propaganda that cholesterol is bad for us, its not. Our bodies make it and we need to eat it. Organic eggs is good if you choose not to eat beef though.

[AJ]

There is little saturated fat and no cholesterol though. Despite the propaganda that cholesterol is bad for us, its not. Our bodies make it and we need to eat it. Organic eggs is good if you choose not to eat beef though.

I'm never said dietary cholesterol was unhealthy, nor saturated fat. What I am saying is that I am unable to find any reputable source that says either of these are essential. The closest I can find is this study from 2004 that states that no lower intake limit has been established (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/3/550.full). Do you have a more recent source for your postulation than that?

Edit to add: by "essential", we mean that your body is unable to make it on its own from other sources.

[Peanut Butter]

My issues have more to do with the abominable treatment of animals in the meat industry than health considerations.  Conversely, I am a fairly avid fisherman and hunter.  In the summer I eat fish I have caught as often as possible and in the fall and winter I eat a fair amount of game (mostly squirrel and rabbit, hopefully adding game birds and venison this year).  I know what I catch/kill, where I get it, and the critters/fish live a free life until I take them.  Nothing beats organic, free-range "limb chicken" (squirrel) properly prepared, IMO.

This is what I do, hunt and fish. I also only buy meat (and goat milk and eggs) from local farms so I know that the animals were truly free-range and lived a healthy life before ending up on my plate. When I go out (rarely) I get grilled with lots of questions because people think I'm a vegetarian because I don't order meat dishes if I don't know where they got it from. (I'm not as bad as the people in the Portlandia sketch, I swear!) Fortunately here in Eugene there's lots of great vegetarian/vegan/ethically sourced options. But the ethical animal products are still way more expensive, so I don't eat as much as most people.

For everyone wondering about documentaries: "Food, Inc." is a good start on what big agribusiness does with land animals, and "End of the Line" is a great documentary done by an enthusiastic fisherman about the state of the world's fisheries.

[Peanut Butter]

Going off of store bought milk and drinking raw has gotten rid of my spring and fall allergies. More $$$$ saved on treating those symptoms!

When I was in college I worked as a goat-milker at a dairy. One of the perks was being allowed to take home as much raw goat milk as you could carry. :)

[brewer12345]

My issues have more to do with the abominable treatment of animals in the meat industry than health considerations.  Conversely, I am a fairly avid fisherman and hunter.  In the summer I eat fish I have caught as often as possible and in the fall and winter I eat a fair amount of game (mostly squirrel and rabbit, hopefully adding game birds and venison this year).  I know what I catch/kill, where I get it, and the critters/fish live a free life until I take them.  Nothing beats organic, free-range "limb chicken" (squirrel) properly prepared, IMO.

This is what I do, hunt and fish. I also only buy meat (and goat milk and eggs) from local farms so I know that the animals were truly free-range and lived a healthy life before ending up on my plate. When I go out (rarely) I get grilled with lots of questions because people think I'm a vegetarian because I don't order meat dishes if I don't know where they got it from. (I'm not as bad as the people in the Portlandia sketch, I swear!) Fortunately here in Eugene there's lots of great vegetarian/vegan/ethically sourced options. But the ethical animal products are still way more expensive, so I don't eat as much as most people.

For everyone wondering about documentaries: "Food, Inc." is a good start on what big agribusiness does with land animals, and "End of the Line" is a great documentary done by an enthusiastic fisherman about the state of the world's fisheries.

The fisheries issue is huge, IMO, and most people are blind to it.  I get funny looks when I will have nothing to do with fish that are widely eaten, but horribly overfished (cod, tuna, orange roughy, etc.).  I carry a little pocket guide to help jog my memory on which fish are OK to buy when I find the rare fish store that meets my high standards.  These days in Colorado, I am generally fishing waters that have been stocked by the state.  Last week on vacation we took the kids to see the largest fish hatchery in the state and it was pretty neat to see where the fish come from.

As for hunting, its as much something I do for enjoyment as anything else.  Being a bottom-fisher and accumulator of unconsidered trifles by nature, I have gotten a lot of enjoyment (and meat) pursuing small game in a place where everyone is absolutely obsessed with big game.

[Mr.Macinstache]

There is little saturated fat and no cholesterol though. Despite the propaganda that cholesterol is bad for us, its not. Our bodies make it and we need to eat it. Organic eggs is good if you choose not to eat beef though.

I'm never said dietary cholesterol was unhealthy, nor saturated fat. What I am saying is that I am unable to find any reputable source that says either of these are essential. The closest I can find is this study from 2004 that states that no lower intake limit has been established (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/3/550.full). Do you have a more recent source for your postulation than that?

Edit to add: by "essential", we mean that your body is unable to make it on its own from other sources.

Your body does make cholesterol, not saturated fat, AFAIK. Both are good for you. No sources on my postulation, just from material I've read over the years. And the fact I've lost 20lb while eating a doz eggs a week says something to me.

[ace1224]

i am amazed that people care that much about what other people eat to try and shame people about how they eat.  i have no clue who is a vegetarian and who isn't in my life. 
seriously who are these people the lunch police?  do they just stare at what everyone eats all day and make comments?

[Mr.Macinstache]

i am amazed that people care that much about what other people eat to try and shame people about how they eat.  i have no clue who is a vegetarian and who isn't in my life. 
seriously who are these people the lunch police?  do they just stare at what everyone eats all day and make comments?

It's human nature.. people are all up in everyone elses business, not just about what they eat, but with everything. Its why facebook is such a hit. Everyone loves to be an opinionated busybody.

[Peanut Butter]

The fisheries issue is huge, IMO, and most people are blind to it.  I get funny looks when I will have nothing to do with fish that are widely eaten, but horribly overfished (cod, tuna, orange roughy, etc.).  I carry a little pocket guide to help jog my memory on which fish are OK to buy when I find the rare fish store that meets my high standards.  These days in Colorado, I am generally fishing waters that have been stocked by the state.  Last week on vacation we took the kids to see the largest fish hatchery in the state and it was pretty neat to see where the fish come from.

As for hunting, its as much something I do for enjoyment as anything else.  Being a bottom-fisher and accumulator of unconsidered trifles by nature, I have gotten a lot of enjoyment (and meat) pursuing small game in a place where everyone is absolutely obsessed with big game.

I haven't been hunting a few years, but I do have family and friends who will usually give me a portion of their elk in exchange for making mincemeat pie. :D Also a friend of my stepfather gave me one of his turkeys, which was only fair since that particular flock had fattened up on my vegetable garden.

Until last year I lived on the coast, and could get tuna that had been caught by locals right offshore, but since I moved back inland, no tuna for me. I'm normally not paranoid or fearful, but I am very...*concerned* about what will happen if we as humans continue on our current course and the productivity of the oceans plummets.

ETA: If you're ever in my neck of the woods (Oregon) check out Bonneville Dam and Fish Hatchery near Portland. Say hello to Herman the Sturgeon!

[tuyop]

So, nobody knows how many grams of protein they get per day on their vegan diet?

I'm very sympathetic, I've tried it myself. I also know that the best I could do on a budget and without beans (can't digest them properly) was about 65g of protein/day. It caused me to stagnate in the gym and I was pretty much constantly injured. I added fish and meat (from farms that I go visit because I can't stand the industrial food system) and dairy back in and can easily hit 180-220g of protein per day for the same amount of money.

You can argue it all day, but I've gotten results with my current protein intake and I've gotten injury when doing it myself. You may very well be able to eat fourteen heads of cauliflower a day (about 140g of protein worth!), but I couldn't afford that and the farts would be terrible.

[GuitarStv]

So, nobody knows how many grams of protein they get per day on their vegan diet?

I'm very sympathetic, I've tried it myself. I also know that the best I could do on a budget and without beans (can't digest them properly) was about 65g of protein/day. It caused me to stagnate in the gym and I was pretty much constantly injured. I added fish and meat (from farms that I go visit because I can't stand the industrial food system) and dairy back in and can easily hit 180-220g of protein per day for the same amount of money.

You can argue it all day, but I've gotten results with my current protein intake and I've gotten injury when doing it myself. You may very well be able to eat fourteen heads of cauliflower a day (about 140g of protein worth!), but I couldn't afford that and the farts would be terrible.

I had similar results when I tried going this way (although, I was eating lots of beans/lentils).  I steadily seem to lose strength and weight on a vegan diet, and suspect that it either has to do with the low protein amounts (because it's difficult to force yourself to eat the amount of fiber you need to eat to get your protein), or the quality of the vegetable protein.  (Actually, looking back at it I wonder if the lack of creatine in a vegan diet also plays a part in the loss of strength.)

[vern]

I'm not the OP, but the documentaries that have changed my eating are:

Forks over knives
Fat, sick, and nearly dead
Food, Inc

Forks over knives convinced us to eat plant based whole foods diet. We don't prohibit meat and dairy,but we have cut it way down. Meat and dairy is now a flavoring, not a food group. It's often easy to skip it all together.

Great movies, all. Although I was a little less impressed with Forks and the China Study than you. Vegan can be a very healthy diet, but I don't see veggies curing cancer, and the data from the study showed people who eat less meat and more vegetables and fruits were healthier. It did not find a vegetable only diet was healthier than one with little meat.

All the same, I enjoyed it a lot. You might want to try FRESH, which I think is streaming on Netflix right now. Joel Salatin, the guy at the beginning of the movie, raises his chickens same as we do. Or rather, we raise ours same as he does, since we copied his system. :)

I love Joel Salatin. It's not that beef, pork, etc is bad for you. It the industrialition of it that is. Raw milk is amazing and I drink it everyday. Going off of store bought milk and drinking raw has gotten rid of my spring and fall allergies. More $$$$ saved on treating those symptoms!

I really enjoyed Fat Sick/Nearly Dead and Food Inc.

Y'all should check out Tom Naughton's Fat Head too.  A great documentary on nutrition.

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/

[Zikoris]

Here's a website dedicated to vegan athletes, including bodybuilders and everything else, for anyone who actually chooses to believe it can't be done. http://famousveganathletes.com/ That would be football players, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, marathoners, and everything in between.

[tuyop]

Here's a website dedicated to vegan athletes, including bodybuilders and everything else, for anyone who actually chooses to believe it can't be done. http://famousveganathletes.com/ That would be football players, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, marathoners, and everything in between.

Yeah sure it can be done, but where do they get their 200g+/day of protein that's not beans?

[hoodedfalcon]

So, we are totally at the "so how do vegans get enough protein" part of the conversation, which is funny, seeing as the whole point of this post was about non-vegans bugging vegans about what the decide to eat (or not to eat). There must have been some huge lobbying effort by the meat industry to give everyone this idea that it is incredibly difficult to get enough protein eating a vegan diet.

And I am not a body builder, nor do I play one on TV. But I would guess that vegan bodybuilders drink protein drinks and supplements just like non-vegan bodybuilders do. They just aren't made with whey.

[GuitarStv]

Here's a website dedicated to vegan athletes, including bodybuilders and everything else, for anyone who actually chooses to believe it can't be done. http://famousveganathletes.com/ That would be football players, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, marathoners, and everything in between.

I've read that there are a few athletes out there who follow a vegan meal plan . . . but they have dieticians who provide them detailed plans regarding nutrition and food intake.  I'd really love to be able to see the meal plans that they follow, and the amount of supplementation that these athletes require while following a vegan diet.  That information never seems to be provided.  A vegan diet can be a lot cheaper, so I'd love to switch over to one if possible.  It just didn't work when I tried it.

[Russ]

So, we are totally at the "so how do vegans get enough protein" part of the conversation, which is funny, seeing as the whole point of this post was about non-vegans bugging vegans about what the decide to eat (or not to eat).

I see it more as curiosity than interrogation. I don't think anyone is worrying about vegans in general, the question is specific to athletes who actually train (not just exercise), especially with a focus on muscle and strength. So while it appears to be the same old question, it is a little more insightful than just that IMO.

FWIW I was vegan for a little over a month a while ago because a buddy got the idea to try it out and I like doing interesting things. I got lots of the "why are you doing that?", but for some reason nobody was satisfied with my answer of "just for the hell of it". Feltgoodman, but I sure did miss my cheese.

[JR]

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat.

I get plenty of saturated fat from delicious coconut, olive, and avocado products.

So, nobody knows how many grams of protein they get per day on their vegan diet?

I typically average 50-60 grams per day and run 35-40 miles per week as well as ride my bike (mostly in the mountains). I only do body weight exercises because I am not concerned with building mass so I am not sure if my protein intake limits that. If I was concerned with building mass I would just drink several protein shakes per day like non-vegan body builders.

I had similar results when I tried going this way (although, I was eating lots of beans/lentils).  I steadily seem to lose strength and weight on a vegan diet, and suspect that it either has to do with the low protein amounts (because it's difficult to force yourself to eat the amount of fiber you need to eat to get your protein), or the quality of the vegetable protein.  (Actually, looking back at it I wonder if the lack of creatine in a vegan diet also plays a part in the loss of strength.)

From my personal experience it is likely that your dietary fat intake was too low not your protein intake. The only time I have personally had athletic performance issues is when my dietary intake of fat drops.

[MrsPete]

To be fair,the increase of processed foods came about the same time as a large-scale switch from hard manual labor (ie, farm work) to less active workdays.  It's hard to say that one was more important than the other. 

No offense to all you vegetarians, but I like the fact that I eat meat.  Our ancestors won at evolution, because they were predators and they were good at killing things.  Killing things and eating them makes us who we are. 

If I raised and killed it myself, or know well the person who did, I'll eat it. If I didn't, I won't, and prefer to go vegan. I consider industrial animal agriculture to be inhumane and choose not to partake of its products if I can help.

If I didn't raise it myself, I'd be 100% vegan. I respect those who are, and who do so for either ethical or health reasons. I'm often amused at how defensive some of us meat eaters get about it, when most of us have no clue what it takes to get that meat to the table.

As to the protein argument, romaine lettuce has more grams of protein per calorie than steak, and broccoli has twice as much. Kale is probably the most nutrient dense of all foods. Vegans and vegetarians who are unhealthy likely got that way by eating processed foods and a diet heavy on starches.

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Like you I like to eat clean for that reason I buy local meat from organ livestock raised here in town. No antibiotics, hormones etc.

[DirtBoy]

Yeah sure it can be done, but where do they get their 200g+/day of protein that's not beans?

Hmm...try this:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vegan+athlete+meal+plan

It's that easy.

From the no meat athlete page.  Here are staple foods:

All kinds of vegetables, cooked and raw
Vegetable sprouts
All kinds of fruits, usually raw
Beans and other legumes: lentils, chickpeas, black beans, pinto beans, adzuki beans
Starchy vegetables like potatoes and sweet potatoes
Brown rice
Pasta
Whole-wheat bread, pitas, and bagels
Other grains and seeds: bulgur wheat, buckwheat, farro, millet, quinoa, flaxseed, hempseed, chia seeds
Hummus
Nuts, nut milks, nut butters: almonds, cashews, walnuts, almond milk, hazelnut milk, peanut butter, almond butter, sunflower seed butter
Oils: grapeseed, olive, canola, coconut, flaxseed (unheated), hemp (unheated)
Agave nectar (as workout fuel, not an all-purpose sweetener)
Protein powder (I like this hemp, rice, pea, and chia blend)
Soy products (limited): tofu, tempeh
Tea and coffee (limited)

Here's one I didn't see in their list, quinoa.

The vegan athletes I know personally like the Monkey Bar Gym program:

http://monkeybargym.com/nutrition/

If my buddy, a vegan athlete, can support a family of 5 on $25k/yr and be a vegan triathlete I suspect others can do it to without having a scientist figure out their diet.

If you can't find this information in this day and age you don't want to know.

[tuyop]

Yeah sure it can be done, but where do they get their 200g+/day of protein that's not beans?

Hmm...try this:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vegan+athlete+meal+plan

It's that easy.

If my buddy, a vegan athlete, can support a family of 5 on $25k/yr and be a vegan triathlete I suspect others can do it to without having a scientist figure out their diet.

If you can't find this information in this day and age you don't want to know.

Turns up a bunch of websites and meal plans for skinny endurance athletes. Not really what I was wondering about. It's not a problem for me to eat 400g of carbs from bread, bananas and mangos. To get nearly 200 grams of protein per day on ~$200 per month, while eating around 2000-2500 calories per day is challenging when you take away beans.

Keep in mind that I actually did this, for about four months last year. During that time I spent about 25-30 hours a week running, swimming, cycling and powerlifting. I think veganism is fucking awesome and love it, but it doesn't seem to fit in with my experience as an athletic person or my particular goals. Here's my response to each food group, as it happened for me:

All kinds of vegetables, cooked and raw: Sure, lots of fiber for anything over 15g of protein.
Vegetable sprouts: Yeah, see above.
All kinds of fruits, usually raw: Dubious protein content, lots of calories.
Beans and other legumes: lentils, chickpeas, black beans, pinto beans, adzuki beans Prepare to have flatulence that destroys furniture.
Starchy vegetables like potatoes and sweet potatoes: Lots of calories for not much protein.
Brown rice: Lol
Pasta: Lol
Whole-wheat bread, pitas, and bagels: Yeah, eat 200 calories of bread, get 5g of protein. Great.
Other grains and seeds: bulgur wheat, buckwheat, farro, millet, quinoa, flaxseed, hempseed, chia seeds: Tons of calories, small amounts of protein.
Hummus: Love hummus, but it's still only like 6g/100 calories.
Nuts, nut milks, nut butters: almonds, cashews, walnuts, almond milk, hazelnut milk, peanut butter, almond butter, sunflower seed butter: Yeah you get like 200 calories in a tiny handful and <10g of protein.
Oils: grapeseed, olive, canola, coconut, flaxseed (unheated), hemp (unheated): fat
Agave nectar (as workout fuel, not an all-purpose sweetener): Carbs, I can eat fruit for that.
Protein powder (I like this hemp, rice, pea, and chia blend): How much do you pay for that? I buy my whey concentrate in 25lb crates and it averages about $7/lb.
Soy products (limited): tofu, tempeh: See legumes.
Tea and coffee (limited)

No need to get defensive about this, I think veganism is excellent, the OP just said he lifts, I was wondering how he was getting a lifter's amount of protein while being vegan. If the answer is legumes and gold-plated protein powders, well, cool I guess!

[DirtBoy]

I'm not being defensive you are being absurd.

Here's another meal plan, but it of course contains legumes.

http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/how-build-muscle-mass-plant-based-diet

You'll almost have to use some kind of legumes.  They are nitrogen fixers, which is how they get so much protein in them.  If you eschew an entire family of plants that contain the highest values of protein and are looking for 200g of plant based protein and furthermore do not want to use protein powders you have painted yourself into a corner. 

If farts are your main concern with legumes try cooking them with a small amount of carrot.  That's what my mom always did as an anti-flatulence measure.

Those that wish to build their body with a vegan diet can and will do it.

[Storypage]

Flatulence comes from your body adjusting to the diet. Once your system is acclimated to high fiber vegetable, fruits, and beans, it goes away. If you never got to that point, you either didn't do it long enough, or you didn't eat enough of it.

But if you don't want to go vegan, don't go vegan. Just that nobody can tell me you can't get as much protein from a plant based diet that you can with one that includes meat, because you can.

And I say that as a meat eater.

[Storypage]

Y'all should check out Tom Naughton's Fat Head too.  A great documentary on nutrition.

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/

I found him amusing, but not just because he is a funny guy (although that was part of it). He sets out to prove Morgan Spurlock wrong in Super Size, but basically makes his point for him... don't eat at fast food, and if you do, avoid most of the stuff on the menu.

I downloaded his food log. He never ate fries or drank sugared sodas, ate only half a burger, and ate salad many times. He also spends a lot time mocking and criticizing the lipid hypothesis, but then goes on to hype the carbohydrate hypothesis, which is just as suspect. He also exercised 2+ hours per day, which is great, but hardly typical of your average fast food junky.

Super Size Me made the point if you eat a lot of fast food, including burgers, dairy, fries, and consume copious amounts of sugared sodas, and don't get enough exercise, you are going to get fat. Fat Head makes exactly the same point, only in a round about way.

As an aside, the NYT article he spoofs with humorous headlines was originally about a burger place that serves some of the best burgers I have ever tasted, made from grass fed and finished longhorns. It's in Meers, OK, a mere hop skip and jump from my current home town. The picture of the guy hugging the longhorn is the owner. He gets so much screen time, he should be in the credits.

[Spork]

Super Size Me made the point if you eat a lot of fast food, including burgers, dairy, fries, and consume copious amounts of sugared sodas, and don't get enough exercise, you are going to get fat. Fat Head makes exactly the same point, only in a round about way.

Naughton understands that... and (in his goofy way) does seriously push for real science -- no matter what the result is.  He does have a bias towards low-carb and will admit to that.  He's a spin off of Taubes, who very emphatically says there needs to be actual science involved.   In fact, Taubes has started an organization with proponents of pretty much every hypothesis to try to skeptically, scientifically examine nutritional science.  linky

[bonjourliz]

My husband follows a very low-fat, mostly vegan diet b/c of health issues (2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29).  The Ornish diet plus fish, basically.  He is healthier than ever, and his cardiologist is thrilled with his current test results. 

He does get lots of questions, mostly from acquaintances who are genuinely curious as to why or how he eats this way.  He's also served as a resource for friends who want to adopt healthier diets for themselves.  Whatever hassle it is, it's been 100% worth it to him.

[minimalist]

My husband follows a very low-fat, mostly vegan diet b/c of health issues (2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29).  The Ornish diet plus fish, basically.  He is healthier than ever, and his cardiologist is thrilled with his current test results. 

He does get lots of questions, mostly from acquaintances who are genuinely curious as to why or how he eats this way.  He's also served as a resource for friends who want to adopt healthier diets for themselves.  Whatever hassle it is, it's been 100% worth it to him.

He had 2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29 and people question why he eats that way?!

[JR]

Y'all should check out Tom Naughton's Fat Head too.  A great documentary on nutrition.

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/

I found him amusing, but not just because he is a funny guy (although that was part of it). He sets out to prove Morgan Spurlock wrong in Super Size, but basically makes his point for him... don't eat at fast food, and if you do, avoid most of the stuff on the menu.

I downloaded his food log. He never ate fries or drank sugared sodas, ate only half a burger, and ate salad many times. He also spends a lot time mocking and criticizing the lipid hypothesis, but then goes on to hype the carbohydrate hypothesis, which is just as suspect. He also exercised 2+ hours per day, which is great, but hardly typical of your average fast food junky.

Super Size Me made the point if you eat a lot of fast food, including burgers, dairy, fries, and consume copious amounts of sugared sodas, and don't get enough exercise, you are going to get fat. Fat Head makes exactly the same point, only in a round about way.

As an aside, the NYT article he spoofs with humorous headlines was originally about a burger place that serves some of the best burgers I have ever tasted, made from grass fed and finished longhorns. It's in Meers, OK, a mere hop skip and jump from my current home town. The picture of the guy hugging the longhorn is the owner. He gets so much screen time, he should be in the credits.

I find the arguments between the low fat proponents and low carb proponents to be ridiculous personally. I was obese throughout my childhood and adolescence and lost about 80-90 lbs in my 20s. I didn't do it by eating low carb or low fat, I lost the weight by burning more calories than I consumed.

[Mr.Macinstache]

First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

[AJ]

Your body does make cholesterol, not saturated fat, AFAIK. Both are good for you. No sources on my postulation, just from material I've read over the years. And the fact I've lost 20lb while eating a doz eggs a week says something to me.

It could be argued that they are good for you (tho you'd need references to do so), but not essential. The plural of anecdote is not data, so while I applaud your weight loss, it hardly proves that a vegan diet is in any way unhealthy. Personally, I lost weight when I went vegan (tho I no longer am). That one looses weight with a diet change does not prove that the change was healthy.

[Vanguards and Lentils]

First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.

[Mr.Macinstache]

First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.

Except that 1/4 grain serving is just a suggestion. The reality is that most of it is ALL processed wheat and it takes up 1/2 the plate. Especially low income families that need their health the most.

Also, the logic that eating less of something that is bad for us (wheat), is healthier, is a failed one.

[PolarBeer]

I find the arguments between the low fat proponents and low carb proponents to be ridiculous personally. I was obese throughout my childhood and adolescence and lost about 80-90 lbs in my 20s. I didn't do it by eating low carb or low fat, I lost the weight by burning more calories than I consumed.

Yep, the philosophy discussions tend to get out of hand and people are very prone to advertise what worked for them. Which is of course still anecdotal. Whether its low carb, low fat, vegan, high-everything but a crazy workout routine, Atkins, gluten-free, dairy-free or whatever. Some of these are typically attached to specific political or social views as well and tend to be reinforced that way. Since most people here don't link to peer-reviewed meta studies, but to youtube, documentaries, various web sites etc we don't really have much facts to debate either, just each other's anecdotes.

The human body is very adaptable, and you can be healthy with several types of diets or even life styles as long as there is a bit of variety and moderation. Now, I don't have sources to cite for that, but I'm gonna be cheeky and challenge anyone to prove their specific diets superiority scientifically over other diets that are also considered reasonably healthy. And no, you can't cheat and say its been "proven" to be better than an average fast food diet. That misses the whole point.

[MustacheMatt]

First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.

Except that 1/4 grain serving is just a suggestion. The reality is that most of it is ALL processed wheat and it takes up 1/2 the plate. Especially low income families that need their health the most.

Also, the logic that eating less of something that is bad for us (wheat), is healthier, is a failed one.

"I can't imagine something healthy like" is the assumption.  Your response is dead on, smoking a light version of a cigarette still isn't healthy.

Every major food and nutrition source will tell you high blood sugar causes you to be fat not to mention the host of illnesses that go with it.  They will not steer you away from foods hgh on the glycemic index however.

Maybe we've been fed a load of crap.

[clarkai]

On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

[MrsPete]

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs. 

[Spork]

I find the arguments between the low fat proponents and low carb proponents to be ridiculous personally. I was obese throughout my childhood and adolescence and lost about 80-90 lbs in my 20s. I didn't do it by eating low carb or low fat, I lost the weight by burning more calories than I consumed.

Yep, the philosophy discussions tend to get out of hand and people are very prone to advertise what worked for them. Which is of course still anecdotal. Whether its low carb, low fat, vegan, high-everything but a crazy workout routine, Atkins, gluten-free, dairy-free or whatever. Some of these are typically attached to specific political or social views as well and tend to be reinforced that way. Since most people here don't link to peer-reviewed meta studies, but to youtube, documentaries, various web sites etc we don't really have much facts to debate either, just each other's anecdotes.

I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

[GuitarStv]

On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

I can confirm that soaking the beans does something that makes them much easier on the ole digestive tract.  Without overnight soaking it will be a significantly gassier time.  :P

[Spork]

On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

I can confirm that soaking the beans does something that makes them much easier on the ole digestive tract.  Without overnight soaking it will be a significantly gassier time.  :P

You can also try Beano (digestive enzyme) taken with the beans or simethicone (over the counter drug) taken at onset of farts.  Both of these can help.

[ASquared]

On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

I can confirm that soaking the beans does something that makes them much easier on the ole digestive tract.  Without overnight soaking it will be a significantly gassier time.  :P

Try epazote, an herb you can cook your black beans with - flavors and makes them easier on your stomach.

[Mr.Macinstache]

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

[PolarBeer]

I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

I agree. I was just too lazy to write out all the caveats. A meta study is only as good as the studies included and (especially in this field) you should do some thorough filtering before a study is included. There are also organizations and lobby groups dedicated to muddy the waters when it comes to pseudoscience and quackery who will publish their own "studies".

But since my main point was that its hard to prove the superiority of one particular diet, one might as well try to find something that works for you on a practical level but still has variety and moderation. Why worry or argue so much about the differences between several seemingly decent food philosophies that good science still hasn't been able to declare a winner from?

[brewer12345]

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Funny, I don't seem to be getting high after a meal of whole wheat whatever.  Perhaps if I smoked it in a bong...

[Storypage]

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Funny, I don't seem to be getting high after a meal of whole wheat whatever.  Perhaps if I smoked it in a bong...

What this site needs is a "Like" button.

[GuitarStv]

I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

Unless you are able to completely camouflage the appearance, texture, taste, colour and smell of the food being studied even a single blind test is impossible.  Good luck getting some test subjects to agree to a multi-month study where they can only eat unidentifiable, tasteless masses each day.  :P

[Spork]

I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

Unless you are able to completely camouflage the appearance, texture, taste, colour and smell of the food being studied even a single blind test is impossible.  Good luck getting some test subjects to agree to a multi-month study where they can only eat unidentifiable, tasteless masses each day.  :P

Yep.  That's a huge part of the problem.  Even getting subjects to agree to a highly controlled multi month study where they eat really tasty food (that's been analyzed for composition) is damn near impossible.

[GuitarStv]

See, this is where some creativity is needed.  They should head to one of those areas in Africa where everybody's starving and nobody would complain about food to run this experiment.  The people get food, the experiment gets run . . . win-win!  It's harder to cheat when there's no other food available.  Of course, there's probably some ethical problem with this concept . . .

[Russ]

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Are the five others grains MrsPete listed that aren't wheat equally as "bad for you"? (sarcasm-quotes because I believe the human body is too complex for anyone to claim a specific food is ZOMG-bad-for-you, especially when people have eaten it without trouble for quite a while now)