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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Sebastian on August 02, 2013, 07:51:59 AM

Title: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Sebastian on August 02, 2013, 07:51:59 AM
Hey All,

After reading and watching a bunch of documentaries on eating a plant based diet and all the health benefits you can get from that. My gf and I decided to go vegan. Not only do I feel a million times better, but it helps slash the grocery bill by a ton! Considering I was eating 1-2lbs of chicken a day for lifting purposes.

The first thing people always think is.. what a weirdo why do you care about the animals so much? Honestly I'm not doing it for the animals. That would be   like me not using a piece of paper to save the trees. The tree are already cut down and dead people. I care about it for health purposes specifically, but when you bring that up. Then you get bombarded by a million other questions. Where do you get your protein, calcium, etc. etc.

We just had a breakfast at work today and all I ate were the potatoes and I got so many stares and "why don't you eat meat anymore??". Has anyone ever gone vegan and experienced this? If so how do you respond to it.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Silvie on August 02, 2013, 07:57:08 AM
Not vegan but vegetarian. Though it's becoming more and more common (at least in the Netherlands), I ALWAYS get ask WHY i'm a vegetarian. I appreciate that people are interested but I've been a vegetarian for 15 years and kind of tired of explaining.

The other day, I was at a barbecue and they had no veggie stuff for me at all. Even the salads had bacon or fish in it :( In general, I find that restaurants in North America have much better options for vegetarians than here in Europe. But having adopted the Mustachian lifestyle, I don't eat out that much (never did anyway).

Still, eating meat is the standard and anything different from the standard is considered "weird".
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Silvie on August 02, 2013, 08:01:15 AM
By the way, are not eating any dairy products anymore or "just" no meat? That would make you vegetarian.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Sebastian on August 02, 2013, 08:02:08 AM
Not vegan but vegetarian. Though it's becoming more and more common (at least in the Netherlands), I ALWAYS get ask WHY i'm a vegetarian. I appreciate that people are interested but I've been a vegetarian for 15 years and kind of tired of explaining.

The other day, I was at a barbecue and they had no veggie stuff for me at all. Even the salads had bacon or fish in it :( In general, I find that restaurants in North America have much better options for vegetarians than here in Europe. But having adopted the Mustachian lifestyle, I don't eat out that much (never did anyway).

Still, eating meat is the standard and anything different from the standard is considered "weird".

exactly. i haven't gone that long, but i will eventually. i'm just already sick of explaining it. i wish people would mind their own business!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Spork on August 02, 2013, 08:32:17 AM

Is it at all possible that folks are just trying to make polite conversation?  "Tell me something different about you."

...or even remotely possible they're looking to solve some problem they've had and wondering if your diet might be at least a partial clue?

Just a thought.  (Not a vegan.  Not a vegetarian.  Not giving up bacon for anything.  BUT: I certainly don't care if you live that way!  And that also doesn't mean I don't like vegetarian cuisine.  I like pretty much all food.)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Kazimieras on August 02, 2013, 08:34:20 AM
exactly. i haven't gone that long, but i will eventually. i'm just already sick of explaining it. i wish people would mind their own business!

The simple way is to not make a big deal of it, when you stop shouting it from the rooftops people will tend not to care how/what you eat.  If you are not doing it for ethical reasons (that is a whole other topic) how about this approach: If you're at a friend's house and they offer you a salmon filet with veggies, rice, etc. Take it and eat it. Now your lifestyle choice isn't even an issue. I would strongly recommend reading Michael Pollan's In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto. The core aspect of the book is "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants". I can easily understand why you are feeling better. If I ate over 1-2lbs of chicken a day, I too would be sick. It is startling what happens when you actually start paying attention to what you eat.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: PolarBeer on August 02, 2013, 08:41:40 AM
I would be curious. But I wouldn't be impolite when asking. But as with many other choices, why a person chooses something is often more interesting than the actual result of the choice. You don't go into detail about your choice, so if I was stuck there with you at a dinner/lunch table, I'd probably pry a bit to understand why.

Also the fact that you mention watching "documentaries" and "health benefits" would make a skeptical person like me wonder about your choices. What kind of documentaries? The unsourced, conspiracy type ones? Or well documented ones weighing pros and cons? Health benefits of cutting out meat also depends a lot on what kinds of meat you used to eat and what you replace it with. With a varied healthy diet, just cutting out meat would probably leave you with a less healthier diet unless you made great efforts to replace the specific nutrients from the meat. If you had an "average" fast food diet with tons of unhealthy meat related products in it, going cold vegan would probably be better for you. So, all of this would naturally make me question you. But that would be about your reasons and your facts, not clueless prejudiced stuff.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: kms on August 02, 2013, 08:43:14 AM
How do you spot a vegan? Don't worry, (s)he'll tell you :)

Kidding aside I think it's the same social expectations category as "You don't have a car? What's wrong with you?" or "You still haven't replaced your two year old 40" flat screen TV with this new shiny 47" one? What's wrong with you?" I'm with Kazimieras on this one: stop talking about it and people will stop bugging you. If they do so purely based on observation explain them you're doing it for health reasons.

Oh, and btw: one of my ex girlfriends was a vegetarian and she was everything but healthy. When a fly coughed in the same room she got sick instantly.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Hunny156 on August 02, 2013, 08:52:44 AM
Hi,

I've been a vegetarian for almost 3 years, fish-eating vegan for about 9 months now.  I often use the term "vegan" to easily describe my eating habits, mostly b/c it's easier than saying that I eat a whole foods, plant based diet.

People ask all the time, mostly its curiosity and lack of knowledge.  The meat and dairy industry have done a great job of convincing people that you can only get protein and calcium from these sources.  I also get a lot of questions about what I actually eat, as so much of the American diet is centered around meat.

I don't give long involved answers when people ask.  You'll generally get those who are genuinely interested, questions like "why did you change your diet?", and you'll get the ones who think it's a big joke "Wow, you picked the wrong state to not eat meat!"  Answer accordingly. 

Most of my friends are really cool about my preferences, and gone far to accommodate me at get togethers.  I've specifically told them not to worry, b/c there's always a salad or crudite dish and I'm not terribly picky, but I really appreciate them trying to accommodate my diet.  I believe that this trend will continue and become easier in the near future, as more people become aware of the food supply in this country and pursue ways of eating better.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Silvie on August 02, 2013, 08:54:34 AM
I never tell people I am vegetarian, unless I'm having dinner with them. I spend 1 minute explaining why I am vegetarian so the topic won't come up again anymore. My friends know I'm vegetarian so it's normal to them now.

Sometimes it's a little bit of a hassle though. I went out for dinner with some people from work. We went to a steakhouse! My only option was a corncob lol.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Bill76 on August 02, 2013, 08:56:18 AM
We went vegan about two years ago, and we got the same kind of reaction from people.  Most of them were just interested in how we adjusted from the Standard American Diet (SAD) to eating nothing but real food.  Others, like my mom, were freaked out that the kids wouldn't get enough protein/calcium/fat/whatever in their diets.  She also claims that everything we eat is "boring and flavorless" without ever trying any of it.

With most people, I just don't talk about it unless they ask.  However, I did spend hours and hours arguing with my mom about nutrition before giving up after she tried to make points about the nutrition content of Hot Pockets and Mountain Dew (yes, she really did that).  When others bring it up, I explain that I lost 15 pounds without really trying and that my blood pressure dropped 10 points in just a few weeks.  That usually satisfies them, but if not, I go into some of the science until they just want me to shut up. :)

Since our original transition, we've reintroduced eggs from our own chickens/ducks and some occasional seafood, but most meals are still basically vegan.  This year, we've cut back significantly on our gluten consumption as well.

I like the Michael Pollan approach that was mentioned earlier.  Eat food.  Not too much.  Mostly plants.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Samsam on August 02, 2013, 09:31:57 AM
How do you spot a vegan? Don't worry, (s)he'll tell you :)

Kidding aside I think it's the same social expectations category as "You don't have a car? What's wrong with you?" or "You still haven't replaced your two year old 40" flat screen TV with this new shiny 47" one? What's wrong with you?" I'm with Kazimieras on this one: stop talking about it and people will stop bugging you. If they do so purely based on observation explain them you're doing it for health reasons.

Oh, and btw: one of my ex girlfriends was a vegetarian and she was everything but healthy. When a fly coughed in the same room she got sick instantly.

Haha, I like the joke. 

Honestly this does work both ways too.  I've lost track of how many times I've gotten yelled at by vegetarians / vegans because I do eat meat.  I have an ex that is vegetarian too and she wasn't healthy either...all she ate was pizza...the fast food kind.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: hoodedfalcon on August 02, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
Oh my. I've been vegan for 14 years. I have dealt with people being genuinely curious to downright rude. The only time it really comes up is when I am eating with someone new for the first time. If someone asks me why I am vegan, they usually accept the reason I give them (ecology, efficiency, health, habit, etc). I bring my lunch to work and for the most people folks are really interested in what I am eating. I make vegan cookies for the office and people gobble them up. It's just not a big deal. Meat is not food to me, just like carpet is not food. It's not even on my radar anymore.

When people ask about protein, I simply say I eat a well balanced diet and protein isn't an issue. A large portion of my friends are also vegan, so it isn't weird at all, and that is a wonderful thing.
 
exactly. i haven't gone that long, but i will eventually. i'm just already sick of explaining it. i wish people would mind their own business!

The simple way is to not make a big deal of it, when you stop shouting it from the rooftops people will tend not to care how/what you eat.  If you are not doing it for ethical reasons (that is a whole other topic) how about this approach: If you're at a friend's house and they offer you a salmon filet with veggies, rice, etc. Take it and eat it. Now your lifestyle choice isn't even an issue. I would strongly recommend reading Michael Pollan's In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto. The core aspect of the book is "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants". I can easily understand why you are feeling better. If I ate over 1-2lbs of chicken a day, I too would be sick. It is startling what happens when you actually start paying attention to what you eat.

This is exactly the sort of reaction that I find so frustrating. Not eating meat does not equal shouting from the rooftops. Just eating the salmon to appease the meat eater is a fairly ridiculous thing to suggest. "Just a little bit" of dairy/meat/eggs will make me very sick, but since I like to keep my intestinal issues private, it's easiest when I simply decline the proffered food. I don't impose my dietary restrictions on anyone, and I appreciate when I am treated with the same level of respect. It's really not that big of a deal. Militant vegans are not as common as folks would like to believe. I've meet many more militant meat eaters than militant vegans.

My favorite vegan joke:
"How many vegans does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"None. Vegans can't change anything"
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 02, 2013, 09:39:07 AM
So how many grams of protein are you getting a day? You mentioned that you lift.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Sebastian on August 02, 2013, 10:06:54 AM
By the way, are not eating any dairy products anymore or "just" no meat? That would make you vegetarian.

nope, no dairy or animal based products. i'm going vegan.. i'm actually going to start a blog because i am a weight lifter trying to pack on some more muscle. i think it will be an interesting journey, and hopefully one that inspires others to go the vegan route :)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Sebastian on August 02, 2013, 10:09:15 AM
exactly. i haven't gone that long, but i will eventually. i'm just already sick of explaining it. i wish people would mind their own business!

The simple way is to not make a big deal of it, when you stop shouting it from the rooftops people will tend not to care how/what you eat.  If you are not doing it for ethical reasons (that is a whole other topic) how about this approach: If you're at a friend's house and they offer you a salmon filet with veggies, rice, etc. Take it and eat it. Now your lifestyle choice isn't even an issue. I would strongly recommend reading Michael Pollan's In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto. The core aspect of the book is "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants". I can easily understand why you are feeling better. If I ate over 1-2lbs of chicken a day, I too would be sick. It is startling what happens when you actually start paying attention to what you eat.

That was actually one of the first books I read in eating healthier :) The China Study is the book that got me into going vegan. It's interesting because I almost thing the dairy products are more damaging than straight up meat.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Honest Abe on August 02, 2013, 10:13:59 AM
I eat fish and some dairy...I never have a problem except one time a friend (not a very good one) brought it up while at dinner and got very aggressive about it. I think it will be hard for my wife and I when we have children, but we'll deal with it.

I wish I could go vegan, maybe someday when I break this ice cream/cheese addiction.:)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: JR on August 02, 2013, 10:16:44 AM
I have been vegan for years and I have never been one to tell people that I am vegan. When people do find out because someone else tells them I do usually get the comments that what I eat is not healthy and I am not enjoying life. My only recommendations are to eat real food and the only supplement I can recommend is methylcobalamin. Inadequate B12 levels are not exclusive to vegans (there is no physical ailment exclusive to veganism) but vegans are more likely to be lacking. I do not take iron supplements and have not had any problems running 35-40 miles per week and riding my bicycle in the mountains. The only issues I have had is when my dietary fat intake drops too low. I usually eat a lot of coconut (milk, oil, and flesh), avacados, olives (oil and flesh), and flax but for a few weeks last month I did not eat nearly enough and it really hurt my running performance. I usually do not track my nutrient intake but the few times I did I was well over 100% RDA for all micro nutrients.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Sebastian on August 02, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Ok, just one thing to clear up after reading the rest of the posts. I do not shout this from the roof tops. In fact, I only bring it up when I am asked. Which unfortunately is often :( See in my office people live to eat. Everyday I'll have 3-4 people asking me what I'm eating and why.

The reason why I posted this today is because during that breakfast I made mention of. All I grabbed were some potatoes, and that's when everyone started asking what was wrong with me, and "how was your awesome breakfast". It's just kind of frustrating, but people look at me like I'm retarded when I say I made the switch just do to health reasons because I am and look fairly healthy already.

Honestly at this point I don't know how much protein I am getting a day. I have been eating a ton of lentils and other legumes. So I'd imagine I'm in the 60-70g+ per day. But again, that is why I'm going to be making my blog. That way it will force me to track my food and my macros and it will show the results on if I can really build some decent muscle with this type of diet :)

Either way thanks for all the responses I enjoyed reading every ones thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: mikefixac on August 02, 2013, 10:26:23 AM
If you want to read and view something that will knock your socks off http://www.gardendish.com/news/2013/8/1/the-thought-leaders-that-you-absolutely-must-meet.html (http://www.gardendish.com/news/2013/8/1/the-thought-leaders-that-you-absolutely-must-meet.html). Nathan Pritiken, Dr Burkitt and Dr Swank being interviewed by Dr McDougall around 30 years ago. Fantastic stuff. Enjoy for those of you who watch.

Perhaps I shouldn't post this below because I don't want to take away from my link above.

Quote
How do you spot a vegan? Don't worry, (s)he'll tell you :)

Actually, I've been vegan so long I don't even think about it when ordering. And it's others who make the comments, not me. When people mention how I eat, it's like STFU and mind your own business. No offense meant to the poster about his vegan sick girlfriend, the fact is, being vegan doesn't mean shit. But put on one side people who eat a plant based diet to those who eat the typical american diet and let's look at their collective health in 20-30 years.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Kazimieras on August 02, 2013, 12:10:59 PM
Ok, just one thing to clear up after reading the rest of the posts. I do not shout this from the roof tops. In fact, I only bring it up when I am asked. Which unfortunately is often :( See in my office people live to eat. Everyday I'll have 3-4 people asking me what I'm eating and why.

The reason why I posted this today is because during that breakfast I made mention of. All I grabbed were some potatoes, and that's when everyone started asking what was wrong with me, and "how was your awesome breakfast". It's just kind of frustrating, but people look at me like I'm retarded when I say I made the switch just do to health reasons because I am and look fairly healthy already.

Honestly at this point I don't know how much protein I am getting a day. I have been eating a ton of lentils and other legumes. So I'd imagine I'm in the 60-70g+ per day. But again, that is why I'm going to be making my blog. That way it will force me to track my food and my macros and it will show the results on if I can really build some decent muscle with this type of diet :)

Either way thanks for all the responses I enjoyed reading every ones thoughts on the matter.

In my experience there are a lot of loud vegans out there. There are many quiet ones too, but oddly you never hear from them as they are quiet. My wife and I love food and happen to not eat a lot of meat. She brings in weird and delicious veggie dishes all the time to work and they don't ask if she's a vegetarian, they are more interested in her food. If you brand yourself something, such as a vegan, expect people to be a) curious b) confused c) annoyed d) other. That happens anytime you associate a label with someone e.g. oh look he's gifted. Now look at something like brownies. If you can say these are brownies or these are vegan brownies - which will garner a larger number of questions? In either case the brownies will be tasty, and may be different, however no more so than if two people used two different recipes. Those people with food sensitivities can ask the cook for specifics.

If people ask why am I eating it, answer. I enjoy it and it is tasty. Oddly people will never have much to say after that. And as soon as you start to tout health benefits that is where problems come in. Most people don't know healthy food if their life depended on it (they are surprized when they find out a potato is not a vegetable). I had a coworker start eating only"raw food". My boss, a biochemist, asked her what is she using as a protein source (mostly since she is always looking for alternates for her diet), my coworker answered lettuce.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Abe on August 02, 2013, 07:57:44 PM
I have found it interesting when people are surprised that someone can survive without eating meat.  Most of my relatives are vegetarian, as are a billion other people in or from India.  There are a lot of health problems in India, but they are due to sanitation, not due to being vegetarian.  My home state is sparsely populated so has good sanitation, and the median life expectancy there is the same as in the US. If you eat a bunch of different types of beans and vegetables, you will be fine from a nutrition standpoint. I wouldn't get too caught up in the details. Only if you ate one type of food would you develop a problem in the long run.   
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: minimalist on August 03, 2013, 10:56:42 AM
Why were you even eating breakfast at work? Do you also each lunch at work? You can't be sure the food you're eating is vegan or healthy unless you make it yourself. Many "non-meat" foods are prepared with meat/fish product (stock, flavor, fat, etc.), dairy, gelatin, etc. plus other unhealthy ingredients.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on August 03, 2013, 11:44:52 AM
I would be curious. But I wouldn't be impolite when asking. But as with many other choices, why a person chooses something is often more interesting than the actual result of the choice. You don't go into detail about your choice, so if I was stuck there with you at a dinner/lunch table, I'd probably pry a bit to understand why.

Also the fact that you mention watching "documentaries" and "health benefits" would make a skeptical person like me wonder about your choices. What kind of documentaries? The unsourced, conspiracy type ones? Or well documented ones weighing pros and cons? Health benefits of cutting out meat also depends a lot on what kinds of meat you used to eat and what you replace it with. With a varied healthy diet, just cutting out meat would probably leave you with a less healthier diet unless you made great efforts to replace the specific nutrients from the meat. If you had an "average" fast food diet with tons of unhealthy meat related products in it, going cold vegan would probably be better for you. So, all of this would naturally make me question you. But that would be about your reasons and your facts, not clueless prejudiced stuff.

I'm not the OP, but the documentaries that have changed my eating are:

Forks over knives
Fat, sick, and nearly dead
Food, Inc

Forks over knives convinced us to eat plant based whole foods diet. We don't prohibit meat and dairy,but we have cut it way down. Meat and dairy is now a flavoring, not a food group. It's often easy to skip it all together. I haven't noticed incredible results, because we weren't eating bad before. But we are also juicing, and I notice huge differences with that.  My husbands shoulder and elbow tendinitis abruptly disappeared after two green juices a day for two days. We had tried steroids, ice, Advil and rest for three months before that. He had to sleep in a certain position and it often woke him up in the night. He did a juice cleanse and the pain literally disappeared in his elbow and he only slightly felt it in his shoulder. Post hoc, but it was compelling to us since we were about to do more medical tests and possibly surgery.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: urover on August 04, 2013, 12:10:45 AM
Hey All,
Not only do I feel a million times better, but it helps slash the grocery bill by a ton! Considering I was eating 1-2lbs of chicken a day for lifting purposes....
Then you get bombarded by a million other questions. Where do you get your protein, calcium, etc. etc.....
With a varied healthy diet, just cutting out meat would probably leave you with a less healthier diet unless you made great efforts to replace the specific nutrients from the meat.

A certain large religious sect of Hindus in India have been vegetarians (Lacto-vegetarians) for several centuries (probably even thousands of years) and have survived just fine :D. I happen to belong to that religious group and have got by just fine so far. I found it hard to find vegetarian food outside the house in the US but Subways and (authentic) Mexican food were a blessing. But being a vegetarian in India is very easy and a lot of food options exist outside the house. India is after all the vegetarian capital of the world!

When I was in the US, it was easy to answer people's questions, I'd just say "religious reasons", although I couldn't care less about (any) religion. Nobody really continues the conversation after that. My personal reason is that I never ever touched meat and don't feel like doing so, ever. Simple. In the modern world, most people have no idea where their meat comes from or how the animals are treated and killed. Heck, some may even say meat comes from the supermarkets.

Btw, I've been trying to cut diary consumption, and that can be hard in my country because most people consider milk a part of their vegetarian diet (plus govt. propaganda) and the thought of it being cut from their diet seems weird to them. Not unlike Americans' reaction to cutting out meat. I already have my tea and coffee black and my breakfast is standard oats porridge (without milk) every day. I need to find a way to avoid milk cheeses and milk-based Indian sweets.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: KMMK on August 04, 2013, 07:03:53 AM
I do think being vegan is a lot harder for a man than a woman. There's the stereotype that real men need to eat meat. I think men get hassled more.

Outside of my immediate family I only know 1 man who is vegan. But I've know several women. Actually, every year, more of my co-workers are vegetarian. I used to be the only one; now it's quite common.

It's relatively easy for me to fend off questions about health and "do I miss it?" when I tell them I'm second generation vegetarian and have never eaten meat (poultry a couple times when I was very young). They tend to shut right up, as it must be healthy enough since I'm still alive and look fine.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MustacheMatt on August 04, 2013, 07:19:26 AM
Hey All,

The first thing people always think is.. what a weirdo why do you care about the animals so much? Honestly I'm not doing it for the animals. That would be   like me not using a piece of paper to save the trees. The tree are already cut down and dead people. I care about it for health purposes specifically, but when you bring that up. Then you get bombarded by a million other questions. Where do you get your protein, calcium, etc. etc.

We just had a breakfast at work today and all I ate were the potatoes and I got so many stares and "why don't you eat meat anymore??". Has anyone ever gone vegan and experienced this? If so how do you respond to it.

You're in the right place!  I gave up wheat, grains and almost all sugar completely!  I feel fantastic and have lost a considerable amount of weight!  I hope your dietary change leads to the results you're looking for too!

I have experienced what you're talking about myself.  Anyone who deviates gets the incredulity and questions.  Wait.... you're not a megaconsumer anymore?  What you want to retire early?  What you're not going to eat what the federal government tells you?  NO MORE PIZZA?!?!

This is less about vegans and more about going in a different direction in general.

When out at restaurants, I refuse to explain the difference between "gluten free" and "grain free" any more.  It's a hopeless battle against the media and advertising.  So instead, I pick menu items that need little if any alterations - and even apologize in advance if it's more than 2 changes.  In rare instances of stupidity I just tell people i'm celiac, that usually fixes their wagon and stops the questions.

At work, i've inspired a few others to change and they've had some great results too.  Overall these people you have to see every day so it requires a different tack.  It's easier to answer questions without silliness to one or two people - groups aren't for serious discussions like this.  You can always just get to work instead of sitting around explaining yourself.  Hopefully, your results will speak for themselves!  If someone starts ballbusting (all in fun), I return fire with looking down at someone's gut and saying, "I lost 35 lbs without any exercise, what's it like going to the gym all those years for nothing?"

Friends and family:  This is the worst part.  The people closest to you will try to derail you at every chance they get.  "Oh so and so made your 'favorite' you have to just eat a little."  Finding polite ways around those incidents are the most challenging.  Holidays, parties, bbq's, really all events where there are people and food.  My mother-in-law just yesterday told me to stop losing weight.  I'm 190 lbs at 6'1" (have been steady at this weight for 8 months).  That's perfect for me imo, but to the rest of the world, being fit and having a flat stomach causes you to be a giant target for opinions.  TOO BAD IM NOT CHANGING, WHY WOULD I GO BACK TO BEING FAT, UNHAPPY, AND HAVE ENDLESS DOCTOR VISITS????

Just like MMM gets his share of complainy and whinypants comments - you too will be a beacon for success and that hurts other people's feelings.  (provided you don't talk a bunch of shit and then fail or give up, at that point you just need some humility and a sense of humor)

This is the same with money, ability, talent, or anything else other people can be envious of or mock to make themselves feel better because you're different.  If you've got a group of haters, you're either a giant douche or a huge success that they think they can't achieve (hopefully the latter!).

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: slowth on August 04, 2013, 12:25:39 PM
This is anecdotal, but food for thought. I've had hypertension my entire life. I almost didn't get a medical clearance to play sports in middle school because of it. Before I started meds, I decided to experiment with a vegan diet to see if that would help at all. Over the past few months I've watched my blood pressure steadily drop to normal. Throughout my entire life my blood pressure has been around 145/95. It is now hovering around 120/80, which is perfectly fine. It might not remain low, I just don't know, but for now I'm very pleased indeed.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: englyn on August 04, 2013, 06:09:59 PM
Slightly off topic, but I thought I may as well ask: any veggie recipe sites / blog recommendations? I would like to eat meat meals less often but find that vegetarian cookbooks are full of soups and salads (I know how to make vegetarian soups and salads!) and risottos and the like (I want to be eating vegetables, not grains, as the focus of the meal).
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MoneyCat on August 04, 2013, 07:09:35 PM
No offense to all you vegetarians, but I like the fact that I eat meat.  Our ancestors won at evolution, because they were predators and they were good at killing things.  Killing things and eating them makes us who we are.  Of course, that doesn't mean that somebody should eat excessive amounts of meat, because that would be wasteful (and excessively expensive)  but our bodies were designed to take in a certain amount of meat.  It's healthy and it tastes good.  If I didn't live in such an urban area, I would probably be out killing something right now to eat it.  It's only natural.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: KMMK on August 04, 2013, 08:15:00 PM
... but our bodies were designed to take in a certain amount of meat.  It's healthy and it tastes good.

Well, actually our bodies are designed to be able to take in a certain amount of meat. Humans are true omnivores - we are able to live on a diet that is primarily meat and also one that is completely vegetable based. We are able to survive in a huge variety of situations. We certainly don't have to "take in" any meat whatsoever. Healthiness depends on so many factors. I highly doubt I have the proper gut bacteria to digest meat, since I've never had any. And meat doesn't taste good to everyone.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: slowth on August 04, 2013, 09:21:21 PM
Slightly off topic, but I thought I may as well ask: any veggie recipe sites / blog recommendations? I would like to eat meat meals less often but find that vegetarian cookbooks are full of soups and salads (I know how to make vegetarian soups and salads!) and risottos and the like (I want to be eating vegetables, not grains, as the focus of the meal).

Check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/Veganomicon-The-Ultimate-Vegan-Cookbook/dp/156924264X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375672718&sr=8-1&keywords=veganomicon
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Silvie on August 05, 2013, 05:23:00 AM
The reason why I posted this today is because during that breakfast I made mention of. All I grabbed were some potatoes.

Potatoes for breakfast? Is that normal in the States? In Holland we just eat bread or cereal for breakfast. But I guess you can't eat that as a vegan?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Peter on August 05, 2013, 06:14:05 AM
Are there any vegans on here willing to share the findings of their research which concludes that a nutritionally complete diet is received by skipping out on meat/eggs/fish?

I've been getting into paleo reading/eating for the past year now which (I believe) pretty strongly debunks the idea that eating a lot of beans, lentils, and breads is a healthy replacement for meat. Most of the things I've come across (which is admittedly not much) fixate on the fact that being vegan is better than the "typical" American diet, which of course is a non-argument, and doesn't help me in any way come to a proper, informed conclusion.

I am truly interested in reading a cogent, rational, and scientifically sound article which concludes that eating a healthy organic diet without meat is more well received by the body than a healthy organic diet with meat. Does such an article/paper exist?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: kt on August 05, 2013, 06:31:18 AM
i love meat but have been cutting down a) for costs reasons and b) because it forces me to be more adventurous in my cooking.

Slightly off topic, but I thought I may as well ask: any veggie recipe sites / blog recommendations? I would like to eat meat meals less often but find that vegetarian cookbooks are full of soups and salads (I know how to make vegetarian soups and salads!) and risottos and the like (I want to be eating vegetables, not grains, as the focus of the meal).

not a vegetarian website but a recipe i've made twice and enjoyed very much:
beetroot, red onion and goats' cheese tart
http://www.sainsburys-live-well-for-less.co.uk/recipes-inspiration/recipes/beetroot,-red-onion-and-goats%27-cheese-tart/ (http://www.sainsburys-live-well-for-less.co.uk/recipes-inspiration/recipes/beetroot,-red-onion-and-goats%27-cheese-tart/)

this is a vegetarian site, some of the recipes look a little fancy with too many weird/unusual (for me) ingredients but i have a few bookmarked. i've made and really enjoyed this one:
Leek, squash and stilton pithivier
http://www.vegetarianliving.co.uk/recipes.php?do=view&recipe=517 (http://www.vegetarianliving.co.uk/recipes.php?do=view&recipe=517)

unfortunately neither of these freeze and reheat well as is, if you want to do this you might try freezing the filling before you cook a smaller pie for today/tomorrow.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: hoodedfalcon on August 05, 2013, 06:42:52 AM
Slightly off topic, but I thought I may as well ask: any veggie recipe sites / blog recommendations? I would like to eat meat meals less often but find that vegetarian cookbooks are full of soups and salads (I know how to make vegetarian soups and salads!) and risottos and the like (I want to be eating vegetables, not grains, as the focus of the meal).

Vegan Dad has a ton of great vegan (and some gluten free) recipes on his blog. He stopped posting earlier this year, but all the recipes are still there.

http://vegandad.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 05, 2013, 07:56:49 AM
Hey, this is a serious question, I'm not trying to troll:

As a vegan weightlifter, how many grams of protein do you get per day?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on August 05, 2013, 10:52:23 AM
Are there any vegans on here willing to share the findings of their research which concludes that a nutritionally complete diet is received by skipping out on meat/eggs/fish?

I've been getting into paleo reading/eating for the past year now which (I believe) pretty strongly debunks the idea that eating a lot of beans, lentils, and breads is a healthy replacement for meat. Most of the things I've come across (which is admittedly not much) fixate on the fact that being vegan is better than the "typical" American diet, which of course is a non-argument, and doesn't help me in any way come to a proper, informed conclusion.

I am truly interested in reading a cogent, rational, and scientifically sound article which concludes that eating a healthy organic diet without meat is more well received by the body than a healthy organic diet with meat. Does such an article/paper exist?

I suspect that there is research out there showing just about anything you'd like.  That said, there is plenty of research that suggests that execssive consumption of meat is bad (*duh*).

I don't do pork, lamb, veal, and I rarely will do beef (like once a year).  My issues have more to do with the abominable treatment of animals in the meat industry than health considerations.  Conversely, I am a fairly avid fisherman and hunter.  In the summer I eat fish I have caught as often as possible and in the fall and winter I eat a fair amount of game (mostly squirrel and rabbit, hopefully adding game birds and venison this year).  I know what I catch/kill, where I get it, and the critters/fish live a free life until I take them.  Nothing beats organic, free-range "limb chicken" (squirrel) properly prepared, IMO.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Roses on August 05, 2013, 11:21:49 AM
Slightly off topic, but I thought I may as well ask: any veggie recipe sites / blog recommendations? I would like to eat meat meals less often but find that vegetarian cookbooks are full of soups and salads (I know how to make vegetarian soups and salads!) and risottos and the like (I want to be eating vegetables, not grains, as the focus of the meal).

Two of my favorites are this blog: http://101cookbooks.com/ and the book Plenty by Yotam Ottolenghi.  Both have amazing flavors. 

I was a vegetarian 12 years and always avoided the diet question whenever I could.  At parties or events I tried to hide my plate a bit (put a big roll on top of everything or position my glass or napkin in front) and if anyone asked if I was going to have the turkey at Christmas I just pretended I'd already eaten all of mine.  I now still eat vegetarian much of the time, and often vegan, but I also enjoy the occasional steak or roast chicken, so I no longer define myself as anything in particular.  But I am experimenting with no sugar & no flour.  So at birthday parties I pretend to share a big piece of cake with my husband and rave about how great it is.  I know it's childish and silly but good god those questions get annoying!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: DirtBoy on August 05, 2013, 12:31:01 PM
To the OP...

My wife, 2 kids, and I have been vegan for the last 10 years.  My wife was vegan for both pregnancies too.

I do get sick of getting flack from people that can't grok not eating animal products.  I don't evangelize or anything, but there is something about it that really bothers folks.  It will affect many of your relationships, especially family.  We have so many things that revolve around food.  When you are bringing your own dish or not eating what everyone else does that seems to bother people.  In my case it took a few years of adjustment for my family to get that this is what we do.

I like to think about it as a way to toughen me up and further test my discipline to remain patient with someone that cracks a vegan or "boy how I love meat" joke for the 10,000th time once they discover my dietary choice.  So, I don't really have any profound advice people will be people.  I have found that you will earn respect over time.  Good luck to you.

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: onehappypanda on August 05, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
Food habits and our attitudes toward them are weird, in general. No matter what you eat, someone always think it's their business to comment on it, or pressure you to cheat "just this once," or bug you to explain/quote research supporting your way of eating, as if what you put in your mouth needs to be publicly defended.

I don't think this is limited to vegetarians. I've gotten comments on my food ("your lunch is so healthy/huge/small/lacking protein/low-carb/whatever) regardless of how I eat. I have found that a few personal rules help:
1) I don't defend my food to anyone. If I'm following a particular diet at the time, I'll explain why to anyone who seems genuinely curious. But if someone seems to go on attack, I'll shut the conversation down completely. My food habits aren't up for debate.
2) I really enjoy my food and eat whatever makes me feel healthy and happy at the time. Usually, when people can tell that you're totally happy with how you eat, they won't bother as much with the snarky comments. And if they comment anyway, their comments have no power.
3) I try not to take it too seriously. I don't really believe there's a single correct way of eating anyway, so there's no sense in getting bent out of shape about all the crazy food debates going on. Once people realize that I don't really care if they think this-or-that diet is better or worse, it usually shuts the argument down.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 05, 2013, 03:55:45 PM
My personal story is that I tried going Paleo and accidentally lost 20lbs, my acne, indigestion, chronic ear infections and dry skin.

I eat a dozen eggs a week, sausage and drink raw milk and eat plenty of butter from grass fed cows. Raw milk/butter is the only dairy I eat. I eat plenty of meat/seafood and fruits/veggies and nuts/legumes. I pretty much cut out all grains including wheat (read Wheat Belly). I stopped drinking soda and cut out most sugar treats. I lost over 20lbs and am near 40yrs old and in the best shape of my life.

I was allergic to store bought milk and it was giving me 3-4 ear infections a year. Those are gone! Meat is not the issue (unless it conflics with some personal belief) The real issue is industrialized food like wheat and dairy. The stuff is toxic. Organic is the best, and is money well spent considering healthcare from eating bad food cost a lot more.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: earlybird on August 05, 2013, 05:11:57 PM
To the OP, I totally understand what you mean about coworkers questioning your meals! I work 10-12 hour days and bring my breakfast, lunch and snacks. I've been vegan (really whole foods plant based no oil) since 2009, for health reasons. No meat, dairy, eggs, or oil. I lost 35 lbs in 3 months without exercising at all. I feel great too. For breakfast I often eat potatoes, brown rice, or just fruit. My lunch could be a huge salad, rice and beans, rice and veggies, baked potato and veggies, whatever. I get a lot of different comments, from "wow, your food looks and smells delicious" to "I don't understand why you won't eat meat." I usually just tell them I like what I eat and I do it to be healthy. A major issue at work for me is that everyone is constantly bringing in food or treats to share, or getting a birthday cake for everyone. Everyone except me that is. I get excluded a lot but I try very hard not to let it bother me. I find myself really not wanting to socialize outside of work with them though. I'd rather go home and enjoy a great meal with my also WFPBNO husband.

To whomever asked about websites, I love http://www.drmcdougall.com/ and especially Happy Herbivore. Check out this series about vegan fitness: http://happyherbivore.com/2013/07/marathon-training-nutrition-plant-based-vegan/

At the end of the day you have to do what makes you happy and healthy!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MrsStubble on August 05, 2013, 07:27:37 PM
. But we are also juicing, and I notice huge differences with that. 

I also went mostly plant-based (meat/cheese for flavor, not as a dish) and started juicing.  This was purely for health reasons and I was a total skeptic when I started but now i find that i not only feel 100x better healthwise, but that i crave the salad, lentils, veggies, fruit/veggie smoothies in the morning.   I can't believe how different you feel when switching cold turkey to a healthy diet!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MrsPete on August 05, 2013, 07:35:26 PM
No offense to all you vegetarians, but I like the fact that I eat meat.  Our ancestors won at evolution, because they were predators and they were good at killing things.  Killing things and eating them makes us who we are.  Of course, that doesn't mean that somebody should eat excessive amounts of meat, because that would be wasteful (and excessively expensive)  but our bodies were designed to take in a certain amount of meat.  It's healthy and it tastes good.  If I didn't live in such an urban area, I would probably be out killing something right now to eat it.  It's only natural.
Furthermore, God gave Noah permission to eat animals in the book of Genesis, so i figure we're on solid ground eating a burger or steak. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MrsPete on August 05, 2013, 07:40:48 PM
Hey All,

After reading and watching a bunch of documentaries on eating a plant based diet and all the health benefits you can get from that. My gf and I decided to go vegan. Not only do I feel a million times better, but it helps slash the grocery bill by a ton! Considering I was eating 1-2lbs of chicken a day for lifting purposes.

The first thing people always think is.. what a weirdo why do you care about the animals so much? Honestly I'm not doing it for the animals. That would be   like me not using a piece of paper to save the trees. The tree are already cut down and dead people. I care about it for health purposes specifically, but when you bring that up. Then you get bombarded by a million other questions. Where do you get your protein, calcium, etc. etc.

We just had a breakfast at work today and all I ate were the potatoes and I got so many stares and "why don't you eat meat anymore??". Has anyone ever gone vegan and experienced this? If so how do you respond to it.
When my teenaged daughter expressed an interest in going vegetarian, I told her that if she wanted my support, I had two conditions:  First,  she had to read a couple books and websites about nutrition; I know too many "vegetarian girls" at the high school who eat nothing but candy and potato chips, and I wanted my girl to make this choice in a healthy way.  She ended up taking a class in nutrition in college, and she is now a walking wealth of information.  Second, I told her that she could not go around being a jerk to other people.  She immediately promised she wouldn't become preachy and arrogant -- and she hasn't. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: shusherstache on August 05, 2013, 08:25:42 PM
A major issue at work for me is that everyone is constantly bringing in food or treats to share, or getting a birthday cake for everyone. Everyone except me that is. I get excluded a lot but I try very hard not to let it bother me. I find myself really not wanting to socialize outside of work with them though.

I work at a large company near a rather crunchy town and while coworkers sometimes bring in baked goods, I always make sure to bring a vegan/gf side or fruit to potlucks and to larger events and they're always gone quickly.  Ratitouille, quinoa salad, a big pile of fresh-cut fruit all go over swimmingly, especially with my coworkers who are usually prone to the latest food fads/diets.  Or, I stock my cube with a small amount of candy (for my boss - a good reason for her to stop by!), but also clementines/apples/gum when the season and price are right for other healthy-eating coworkers.  Perhaps you don't like your coworkers anyway but regardless you can socialize in a group without eating the food they're eating.  Or! Even better! Bringing your own water/tea in a bottle so that you can consume something communally without having to eat their thing.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Storypage on August 06, 2013, 09:41:25 AM
No offense to all you vegetarians, but I like the fact that I eat meat.  Our ancestors won at evolution, because they were predators and they were good at killing things.  Killing things and eating them makes us who we are. 

If I raised and killed it myself, or know well the person who did, I'll eat it. If I didn't, I won't, and prefer to go vegan. I consider industrial animal agriculture to be inhumane and choose not to partake of its products if I can help.

If I didn't raise it myself, I'd be 100% vegan. I respect those who are, and who do so for either ethical or health reasons. I'm often amused at how defensive some of us meat eaters get about it, when most of us have no clue what it takes to get that meat to the table.

As to the protein argument, romaine lettuce has more grams of protein per calorie than steak, and broccoli has twice as much. Kale is probably the most nutrient dense of all foods. Vegans and vegetarians who are unhealthy likely got that way by eating processed foods and a diet heavy on starches.



 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 06, 2013, 10:56:03 AM
No offense to all you vegetarians, but I like the fact that I eat meat.  Our ancestors won at evolution, because they were predators and they were good at killing things.  Killing things and eating them makes us who we are. 

If I raised and killed it myself, or know well the person who did, I'll eat it. If I didn't, I won't, and prefer to go vegan. I consider industrial animal agriculture to be inhumane and choose not to partake of its products if I can help.

If I didn't raise it myself, I'd be 100% vegan. I respect those who are, and who do so for either ethical or health reasons. I'm often amused at how defensive some of us meat eaters get about it, when most of us have no clue what it takes to get that meat to the table.

As to the protein argument, romaine lettuce has more grams of protein per calorie than steak, and broccoli has twice as much. Kale is probably the most nutrient dense of all foods. Vegans and vegetarians who are unhealthy likely got that way by eating processed foods and a diet heavy on starches.

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Like you I like to eat clean for that reason I buy local meat from organ livestock raised here in town. No antibiotics, hormones etc.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Storypage on August 06, 2013, 10:58:18 AM
I'm not the OP, but the documentaries that have changed my eating are:

Forks over knives
Fat, sick, and nearly dead
Food, Inc

Forks over knives convinced us to eat plant based whole foods diet. We don't prohibit meat and dairy,but we have cut it way down. Meat and dairy is now a flavoring, not a food group. It's often easy to skip it all together.

Great movies, all. Although I was a little less impressed with Forks and the China Study than you. Vegan can be a very healthy diet, but I don't see veggies curing cancer, and the data from the study showed people who eat less meat and more vegetables and fruits were healthier. It did not find a vegetable only diet was healthier than one with little meat.

All the same, I enjoyed it a lot. You might want to try FRESH (http://www.freshthemovie.com/), which I think is streaming on Netflix right now. Joel Salatin, the guy at the beginning of the movie, raises his chickens same as we do. Or rather, we raise ours same as he does, since we copied his system. :)

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 06, 2013, 11:03:13 AM
I'm not the OP, but the documentaries that have changed my eating are:

Forks over knives
Fat, sick, and nearly dead
Food, Inc

Forks over knives convinced us to eat plant based whole foods diet. We don't prohibit meat and dairy,but we have cut it way down. Meat and dairy is now a flavoring, not a food group. It's often easy to skip it all together.

Great movies, all. Although I was a little less impressed with Forks and the China Study than you. Vegan can be a very healthy diet, but I don't see veggies curing cancer, and the data from the study showed people who eat less meat and more vegetables and fruits were healthier. It did not find a vegetable only diet was healthier than one with little meat.

All the same, I enjoyed it a lot. You might want to try FRESH (http://www.freshthemovie.com/), which I think is streaming on Netflix right now. Joel Salatin, the guy at the beginning of the movie, raises his chickens same as we do. Or rather, we raise ours same as he does, since we copied his system. :)

I love Joel Salatin. It's not that beef, pork, etc is bad for you. It the industrialition of it that is. Raw milk is amazing and I drink it everyday. Going off of store bought milk and drinking raw has gotten rid of my spring and fall allergies. More $$$$ saved on treating those symptoms!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: AJ on August 06, 2013, 11:28:01 AM
But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Wait, what? What "essential fats" only come from animals? The only essential fatty acids I am aware of are omega 3 and 6 - both of which are highly available from plants. A google search of "essential fats" didn't yield anything of value. Source?

Agreed that processed foods such as margarine are unhealthy, but that seems like a red herring. Both omnivores and vegetarians can choose to eat processed or whole foods.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 06, 2013, 11:35:37 AM
But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Wait, what? What "essential fats" only come from animals? The only essential fatty acids I am aware of are omega 3 and 6 - both of which are highly available from plants. A google search of "essential fats" didn't yield anything of value. Source?

Agreed that processed foods such as margarine are unhealthy, but that seems like a red herring. Both omnivores and vegetarians can choose to eat processed or whole foods.

There is little saturated fat and no cholesterol though. Despite the propaganda that cholesterol is bad for us, its not. Our bodies make it and we need to eat it. Organic eggs is good if you choose not to eat beef though.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: AJ on August 06, 2013, 11:45:20 AM
There is little saturated fat and no cholesterol though. Despite the propaganda that cholesterol is bad for us, its not. Our bodies make it and we need to eat it. Organic eggs is good if you choose not to eat beef though.

I'm never said dietary cholesterol was unhealthy, nor saturated fat. What I am saying is that I am unable to find any reputable source that says either of these are essential. The closest I can find is this study from 2004 that states that no lower intake limit has been established (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/3/550.full). Do you have a more recent source for your postulation than that?

Edit to add: by "essential", we mean that your body is unable to make it on its own from other sources.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Peanut Butter on August 06, 2013, 11:50:05 AM
My issues have more to do with the abominable treatment of animals in the meat industry than health considerations.  Conversely, I am a fairly avid fisherman and hunter.  In the summer I eat fish I have caught as often as possible and in the fall and winter I eat a fair amount of game (mostly squirrel and rabbit, hopefully adding game birds and venison this year).  I know what I catch/kill, where I get it, and the critters/fish live a free life until I take them.  Nothing beats organic, free-range "limb chicken" (squirrel) properly prepared, IMO.

This is what I do, hunt and fish. I also only buy meat (and goat milk and eggs) from local farms so I know that the animals were truly free-range and lived a healthy life before ending up on my plate. When I go out (rarely) I get grilled with lots of questions because people think I'm a vegetarian because I don't order meat dishes if I don't know where they got it from. (I'm not as bad as the people in the Portlandia sketch, I swear!) Fortunately here in Eugene there's lots of great vegetarian/vegan/ethically sourced options. But the ethical animal products are still way more expensive, so I don't eat as much as most people.

For everyone wondering about documentaries: "Food, Inc." is a good start on what big agribusiness does with land animals, and "End of the Line" is a great documentary done by an enthusiastic fisherman about the state of the world's fisheries.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Peanut Butter on August 06, 2013, 11:53:10 AM
Going off of store bought milk and drinking raw has gotten rid of my spring and fall allergies. More $$$$ saved on treating those symptoms!

When I was in college I worked as a goat-milker at a dairy. One of the perks was being allowed to take home as much raw goat milk as you could carry. :)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on August 06, 2013, 12:12:05 PM
My issues have more to do with the abominable treatment of animals in the meat industry than health considerations.  Conversely, I am a fairly avid fisherman and hunter.  In the summer I eat fish I have caught as often as possible and in the fall and winter I eat a fair amount of game (mostly squirrel and rabbit, hopefully adding game birds and venison this year).  I know what I catch/kill, where I get it, and the critters/fish live a free life until I take them.  Nothing beats organic, free-range "limb chicken" (squirrel) properly prepared, IMO.

This is what I do, hunt and fish. I also only buy meat (and goat milk and eggs) from local farms so I know that the animals were truly free-range and lived a healthy life before ending up on my plate. When I go out (rarely) I get grilled with lots of questions because people think I'm a vegetarian because I don't order meat dishes if I don't know where they got it from. (I'm not as bad as the people in the Portlandia sketch, I swear!) Fortunately here in Eugene there's lots of great vegetarian/vegan/ethically sourced options. But the ethical animal products are still way more expensive, so I don't eat as much as most people.

For everyone wondering about documentaries: "Food, Inc." is a good start on what big agribusiness does with land animals, and "End of the Line" is a great documentary done by an enthusiastic fisherman about the state of the world's fisheries.

The fisheries issue is huge, IMO, and most people are blind to it.  I get funny looks when I will have nothing to do with fish that are widely eaten, but horribly overfished (cod, tuna, orange roughy, etc.).  I carry a little pocket guide to help jog my memory on which fish are OK to buy when I find the rare fish store that meets my high standards.  These days in Colorado, I am generally fishing waters that have been stocked by the state.  Last week on vacation we took the kids to see the largest fish hatchery in the state and it was pretty neat to see where the fish come from.

As for hunting, its as much something I do for enjoyment as anything else.  Being a bottom-fisher and accumulator of unconsidered trifles by nature, I have gotten a lot of enjoyment (and meat) pursuing small game in a place where everyone is absolutely obsessed with big game.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 06, 2013, 12:24:58 PM
There is little saturated fat and no cholesterol though. Despite the propaganda that cholesterol is bad for us, its not. Our bodies make it and we need to eat it. Organic eggs is good if you choose not to eat beef though.

I'm never said dietary cholesterol was unhealthy, nor saturated fat. What I am saying is that I am unable to find any reputable source that says either of these are essential. The closest I can find is this study from 2004 that states that no lower intake limit has been established (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/3/550.full). Do you have a more recent source for your postulation than that?

Edit to add: by "essential", we mean that your body is unable to make it on its own from other sources.

Your body does make cholesterol, not saturated fat, AFAIK. Both are good for you. No sources on my postulation, just from material I've read over the years. And the fact I've lost 20lb while eating a doz eggs a week says something to me.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: ace1224 on August 06, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
i am amazed that people care that much about what other people eat to try and shame people about how they eat.  i have no clue who is a vegetarian and who isn't in my life. 
seriously who are these people the lunch police?  do they just stare at what everyone eats all day and make comments?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 06, 2013, 12:28:31 PM
i am amazed that people care that much about what other people eat to try and shame people about how they eat.  i have no clue who is a vegetarian and who isn't in my life. 
seriously who are these people the lunch police?  do they just stare at what everyone eats all day and make comments?

It's human nature.. people are all up in everyone elses business, not just about what they eat, but with everything. Its why facebook is such a hit. Everyone loves to be an opinionated busybody.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Peanut Butter on August 06, 2013, 12:49:03 PM
The fisheries issue is huge, IMO, and most people are blind to it.  I get funny looks when I will have nothing to do with fish that are widely eaten, but horribly overfished (cod, tuna, orange roughy, etc.).  I carry a little pocket guide to help jog my memory on which fish are OK to buy when I find the rare fish store that meets my high standards.  These days in Colorado, I am generally fishing waters that have been stocked by the state.  Last week on vacation we took the kids to see the largest fish hatchery in the state and it was pretty neat to see where the fish come from.

As for hunting, its as much something I do for enjoyment as anything else.  Being a bottom-fisher and accumulator of unconsidered trifles by nature, I have gotten a lot of enjoyment (and meat) pursuing small game in a place where everyone is absolutely obsessed with big game.

I haven't been hunting a few years, but I do have family and friends who will usually give me a portion of their elk in exchange for making mincemeat pie. :D Also a friend of my stepfather gave me one of his turkeys, which was only fair since that particular flock had fattened up on my vegetable garden.

Until last year I lived on the coast, and could get tuna that had been caught by locals right offshore, but since I moved back inland, no tuna for me. I'm normally not paranoid or fearful, but I am very...*concerned* about what will happen if we as humans continue on our current course and the productivity of the oceans plummets.

ETA: If you're ever in my neck of the woods (Oregon) check out Bonneville Dam and Fish Hatchery near Portland. Say hello to Herman the Sturgeon!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 06, 2013, 01:02:29 PM
So, nobody knows how many grams of protein they get per day on their vegan diet?

I'm very sympathetic, I've tried it myself. I also know that the best I could do on a budget and without beans (can't digest them properly) was about 65g of protein/day. It caused me to stagnate in the gym and I was pretty much constantly injured. I added fish and meat (from farms that I go visit because I can't stand the industrial food system) and dairy back in and can easily hit 180-220g of protein per day for the same amount of money.

You can argue it all day, but I've gotten results with my current protein intake and I've gotten injury when doing it myself. You may very well be able to eat fourteen heads of cauliflower a day (about 140g of protein worth!), but I couldn't afford that and the farts would be terrible.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: GuitarStv on August 06, 2013, 01:31:05 PM
So, nobody knows how many grams of protein they get per day on their vegan diet?

I'm very sympathetic, I've tried it myself. I also know that the best I could do on a budget and without beans (can't digest them properly) was about 65g of protein/day. It caused me to stagnate in the gym and I was pretty much constantly injured. I added fish and meat (from farms that I go visit because I can't stand the industrial food system) and dairy back in and can easily hit 180-220g of protein per day for the same amount of money.

You can argue it all day, but I've gotten results with my current protein intake and I've gotten injury when doing it myself. You may very well be able to eat fourteen heads of cauliflower a day (about 140g of protein worth!), but I couldn't afford that and the farts would be terrible.

I had similar results when I tried going this way (although, I was eating lots of beans/lentils).  I steadily seem to lose strength and weight on a vegan diet, and suspect that it either has to do with the low protein amounts (because it's difficult to force yourself to eat the amount of fiber you need to eat to get your protein), or the quality of the vegetable protein.  (Actually, looking back at it I wonder if the lack of creatine in a vegan diet also plays a part in the loss of strength.)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: vern on August 06, 2013, 10:18:20 PM
I'm not the OP, but the documentaries that have changed my eating are:

Forks over knives
Fat, sick, and nearly dead
Food, Inc

Forks over knives convinced us to eat plant based whole foods diet. We don't prohibit meat and dairy,but we have cut it way down. Meat and dairy is now a flavoring, not a food group. It's often easy to skip it all together.

Great movies, all. Although I was a little less impressed with Forks and the China Study than you. Vegan can be a very healthy diet, but I don't see veggies curing cancer, and the data from the study showed people who eat less meat and more vegetables and fruits were healthier. It did not find a vegetable only diet was healthier than one with little meat.

All the same, I enjoyed it a lot. You might want to try FRESH (http://www.freshthemovie.com/), which I think is streaming on Netflix right now. Joel Salatin, the guy at the beginning of the movie, raises his chickens same as we do. Or rather, we raise ours same as he does, since we copied his system. :)

I love Joel Salatin. It's not that beef, pork, etc is bad for you. It the industrialition of it that is. Raw milk is amazing and I drink it everyday. Going off of store bought milk and drinking raw has gotten rid of my spring and fall allergies. More $$$$ saved on treating those symptoms!

I really enjoyed Fat Sick/Nearly Dead and Food Inc.

Y'all should check out Tom Naughton's Fat Head too.  A great documentary on nutrition.

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Zikoris on August 07, 2013, 12:07:57 AM
Here's a website dedicated to vegan athletes, including bodybuilders and everything else, for anyone who actually chooses to believe it can't be done. http://famousveganathletes.com/ (http://famousveganathletes.com/) That would be football players, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, marathoners, and everything in between.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 07, 2013, 06:18:23 AM
Here's a website dedicated to vegan athletes, including bodybuilders and everything else, for anyone who actually chooses to believe it can't be done. http://famousveganathletes.com/ (http://famousveganathletes.com/) That would be football players, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, marathoners, and everything in between.

Yeah sure it can be done, but where do they get their 200g+/day of protein that's not beans?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: hoodedfalcon on August 07, 2013, 06:46:11 AM
So, we are totally at the "so how do vegans get enough protein" part of the conversation, which is funny, seeing as the whole point of this post was about non-vegans bugging vegans about what the decide to eat (or not to eat). There must have been some huge lobbying effort by the meat industry to give everyone this idea that it is incredibly difficult to get enough protein eating a vegan diet.

And I am not a body builder, nor do I play one on TV. But I would guess that vegan bodybuilders drink protein drinks and supplements just like non-vegan bodybuilders do. They just aren't made with whey.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: GuitarStv on August 07, 2013, 07:45:59 AM
Here's a website dedicated to vegan athletes, including bodybuilders and everything else, for anyone who actually chooses to believe it can't be done. http://famousveganathletes.com/ (http://famousveganathletes.com/) That would be football players, MMA fighters, bodybuilders, marathoners, and everything in between.

I've read that there are a few athletes out there who follow a vegan meal plan . . . but they have dieticians who provide them detailed plans regarding nutrition and food intake.  I'd really love to be able to see the meal plans that they follow, and the amount of supplementation that these athletes require while following a vegan diet.  That information never seems to be provided.  A vegan diet can be a lot cheaper, so I'd love to switch over to one if possible.  It just didn't work when I tried it.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Russ on August 07, 2013, 08:02:26 AM
So, we are totally at the "so how do vegans get enough protein" part of the conversation, which is funny, seeing as the whole point of this post was about non-vegans bugging vegans about what the decide to eat (or not to eat).

I see it more as curiosity than interrogation. I don't think anyone is worrying about vegans in general, the question is specific to athletes who actually train (not just exercise), especially with a focus on muscle and strength. So while it appears to be the same old question, it is a little more insightful than just that IMO.

FWIW I was vegan for a little over a month a while ago because a buddy got the idea to try it out and I like doing interesting things. I got lots of the "why are you doing that?", but for some reason nobody was satisfied with my answer of "just for the hell of it". Feltgoodman, but I sure did miss my cheese.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: JR on August 07, 2013, 09:09:56 AM

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat.

I get plenty of saturated fat from delicious coconut, olive, and avocado products.

So, nobody knows how many grams of protein they get per day on their vegan diet?


I typically average 50-60 grams per day and run 35-40 miles per week as well as ride my bike (mostly in the mountains). I only do body weight exercises because I am not concerned with building mass so I am not sure if my protein intake limits that. If I was concerned with building mass I would just drink several protein shakes per day like non-vegan body builders.


I had similar results when I tried going this way (although, I was eating lots of beans/lentils).  I steadily seem to lose strength and weight on a vegan diet, and suspect that it either has to do with the low protein amounts (because it's difficult to force yourself to eat the amount of fiber you need to eat to get your protein), or the quality of the vegetable protein.  (Actually, looking back at it I wonder if the lack of creatine in a vegan diet also plays a part in the loss of strength.)

From my personal experience it is likely that your dietary fat intake was too low not your protein intake. The only time I have personally had athletic performance issues is when my dietary intake of fat drops.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MrsPete on August 07, 2013, 09:24:42 AM
To be fair,the increase of processed foods came about the same time as a large-scale switch from hard manual labor (ie, farm work) to less active workdays.  It's hard to say that one was more important than the other. 
No offense to all you vegetarians, but I like the fact that I eat meat.  Our ancestors won at evolution, because they were predators and they were good at killing things.  Killing things and eating them makes us who we are. 

If I raised and killed it myself, or know well the person who did, I'll eat it. If I didn't, I won't, and prefer to go vegan. I consider industrial animal agriculture to be inhumane and choose not to partake of its products if I can help.

If I didn't raise it myself, I'd be 100% vegan. I respect those who are, and who do so for either ethical or health reasons. I'm often amused at how defensive some of us meat eaters get about it, when most of us have no clue what it takes to get that meat to the table.

As to the protein argument, romaine lettuce has more grams of protein per calorie than steak, and broccoli has twice as much. Kale is probably the most nutrient dense of all foods. Vegans and vegetarians who are unhealthy likely got that way by eating processed foods and a diet heavy on starches.

But you're still missing the essential saturated fats from animal meat. Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

Like you I like to eat clean for that reason I buy local meat from organ livestock raised here in town. No antibiotics, hormones etc.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: DirtBoy on August 07, 2013, 10:50:46 AM
Yeah sure it can be done, but where do they get their 200g+/day of protein that's not beans?

Hmm...try this:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vegan+athlete+meal+plan

It's that easy.

From the no meat athlete page.  Here are staple foods:

All kinds of vegetables, cooked and raw
Vegetable sprouts
All kinds of fruits, usually raw
Beans and other legumes: lentils, chickpeas, black beans, pinto beans, adzuki beans
Starchy vegetables like potatoes and sweet potatoes
Brown rice
Pasta
Whole-wheat bread, pitas, and bagels
Other grains and seeds: bulgur wheat, buckwheat, farro, millet, quinoa, flaxseed, hempseed, chia seeds
Hummus
Nuts, nut milks, nut butters: almonds, cashews, walnuts, almond milk, hazelnut milk, peanut butter, almond butter, sunflower seed butter
Oils: grapeseed, olive, canola, coconut, flaxseed (unheated), hemp (unheated)
Agave nectar (as workout fuel, not an all-purpose sweetener)
Protein powder (I like this hemp, rice, pea, and chia blend)
Soy products (limited): tofu, tempeh
Tea and coffee (limited)

Here's one I didn't see in their list, quinoa.

The vegan athletes I know personally like the Monkey Bar Gym program:

http://monkeybargym.com/nutrition/

If my buddy, a vegan athlete, can support a family of 5 on $25k/yr and be a vegan triathlete I suspect others can do it to without having a scientist figure out their diet.

If you can't find this information in this day and age you don't want to know.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 07, 2013, 02:52:37 PM
Yeah sure it can be done, but where do they get their 200g+/day of protein that's not beans?

Hmm...try this:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vegan+athlete+meal+plan

It's that easy.

If my buddy, a vegan athlete, can support a family of 5 on $25k/yr and be a vegan triathlete I suspect others can do it to without having a scientist figure out their diet.

If you can't find this information in this day and age you don't want to know.

Turns up a bunch of websites and meal plans for skinny endurance athletes. Not really what I was wondering about. It's not a problem for me to eat 400g of carbs from bread, bananas and mangos. To get nearly 200 grams of protein per day on ~$200 per month, while eating around 2000-2500 calories per day is challenging when you take away beans.

Keep in mind that I actually did this, for about four months last year. During that time I spent about 25-30 hours a week running, swimming, cycling and powerlifting. I think veganism is fucking awesome and love it, but it doesn't seem to fit in with my experience as an athletic person or my particular goals. Here's my response to each food group, as it happened for me:

All kinds of vegetables, cooked and raw: Sure, lots of fiber for anything over 15g of protein.
Vegetable sprouts: Yeah, see above.
All kinds of fruits, usually raw: Dubious protein content, lots of calories.
Beans and other legumes: lentils, chickpeas, black beans, pinto beans, adzuki beans Prepare to have flatulence that destroys furniture.
Starchy vegetables like potatoes and sweet potatoes: Lots of calories for not much protein.
Brown rice: Lol
Pasta: Lol
Whole-wheat bread, pitas, and bagels: Yeah, eat 200 calories of bread, get 5g of protein. Great.
Other grains and seeds: bulgur wheat, buckwheat, farro, millet, quinoa, flaxseed, hempseed, chia seeds: Tons of calories, small amounts of protein.
Hummus: Love hummus, but it's still only like 6g/100 calories.
Nuts, nut milks, nut butters: almonds, cashews, walnuts, almond milk, hazelnut milk, peanut butter, almond butter, sunflower seed butter: Yeah you get like 200 calories in a tiny handful and <10g of protein.
Oils: grapeseed, olive, canola, coconut, flaxseed (unheated), hemp (unheated): fat
Agave nectar (as workout fuel, not an all-purpose sweetener): Carbs, I can eat fruit for that.
Protein powder (I like this hemp, rice, pea, and chia blend): How much do you pay for that? I buy my whey concentrate in 25lb crates and it averages about $7/lb.
Soy products (limited): tofu, tempeh: See legumes.
Tea and coffee (limited)

No need to get defensive about this, I think veganism is excellent, the OP just said he lifts, I was wondering how he was getting a lifter's amount of protein while being vegan. If the answer is legumes and gold-plated protein powders, well, cool I guess!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: DirtBoy on August 07, 2013, 03:20:11 PM
I'm not being defensive you are being absurd.

Here's another meal plan, but it of course contains legumes.

http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/how-build-muscle-mass-plant-based-diet

You'll almost have to use some kind of legumes.  They are nitrogen fixers, which is how they get so much protein in them.  If you eschew an entire family of plants that contain the highest values of protein and are looking for 200g of plant based protein and furthermore do not want to use protein powders you have painted yourself into a corner. 

If farts are your main concern with legumes try cooking them with a small amount of carrot.  That's what my mom always did as an anti-flatulence measure.

Those that wish to build their body with a vegan diet can and will do it.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Storypage on August 08, 2013, 11:10:06 AM
Flatulence comes from your body adjusting to the diet. Once your system is acclimated to high fiber vegetable, fruits, and beans, it goes away. If you never got to that point, you either didn't do it long enough, or you didn't eat enough of it.

But if you don't want to go vegan, don't go vegan. Just that nobody can tell me you can't get as much protein from a plant based diet that you can with one that includes meat, because you can.

And I say that as a meat eater.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Storypage on August 08, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
Y'all should check out Tom Naughton's Fat Head too.  A great documentary on nutrition.

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/

I found him amusing, but not just because he is a funny guy (although that was part of it). He sets out to prove Morgan Spurlock wrong in Super Size, but basically makes his point for him... don't eat at fast food, and if you do, avoid most of the stuff on the menu.

I downloaded his food log. He never ate fries or drank sugared sodas, ate only half a burger, and ate salad many times. He also spends a lot time mocking and criticizing the lipid hypothesis, but then goes on to hype the carbohydrate hypothesis, which is just as suspect. He also exercised 2+ hours per day, which is great, but hardly typical of your average fast food junky.

Super Size Me made the point if you eat a lot of fast food, including burgers, dairy, fries, and consume copious amounts of sugared sodas, and don't get enough exercise, you are going to get fat. Fat Head makes exactly the same point, only in a round about way.

As an aside, the NYT article he spoofs with humorous headlines was originally about a burger place that serves some of the best burgers I have ever tasted, made from grass fed and finished longhorns. It's in Meers, OK, a mere hop skip and jump from my current home town. The picture of the guy hugging the longhorn is the owner. He gets so much screen time, he should be in the credits.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Spork on August 08, 2013, 01:16:52 PM
Super Size Me made the point if you eat a lot of fast food, including burgers, dairy, fries, and consume copious amounts of sugared sodas, and don't get enough exercise, you are going to get fat. Fat Head makes exactly the same point, only in a round about way.

Naughton understands that... and (in his goofy way) does seriously push for real science -- no matter what the result is.  He does have a bias towards low-carb and will admit to that.  He's a spin off of Taubes, who very emphatically says there needs to be actual science involved.   In fact, Taubes has started an organization with proponents of pretty much every hypothesis to try to skeptically, scientifically examine nutritional science.  linky (http://nusi.org/)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bonjourliz on August 08, 2013, 01:24:50 PM
My husband follows a very low-fat, mostly vegan diet b/c of health issues (2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29).  The Ornish diet plus fish, basically.  He is healthier than ever, and his cardiologist is thrilled with his current test results. 

He does get lots of questions, mostly from acquaintances who are genuinely curious as to why or how he eats this way.  He's also served as a resource for friends who want to adopt healthier diets for themselves.  Whatever hassle it is, it's been 100% worth it to him.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: minimalist on August 08, 2013, 01:41:23 PM
My husband follows a very low-fat, mostly vegan diet b/c of health issues (2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29).  The Ornish diet plus fish, basically.  He is healthier than ever, and his cardiologist is thrilled with his current test results. 

He does get lots of questions, mostly from acquaintances who are genuinely curious as to why or how he eats this way.  He's also served as a resource for friends who want to adopt healthier diets for themselves.  Whatever hassle it is, it's been 100% worth it to him.

He had 2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29 and people question why he eats that way?!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: JR on August 08, 2013, 02:09:14 PM
Y'all should check out Tom Naughton's Fat Head too.  A great documentary on nutrition.

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/

I found him amusing, but not just because he is a funny guy (although that was part of it). He sets out to prove Morgan Spurlock wrong in Super Size, but basically makes his point for him... don't eat at fast food, and if you do, avoid most of the stuff on the menu.

I downloaded his food log. He never ate fries or drank sugared sodas, ate only half a burger, and ate salad many times. He also spends a lot time mocking and criticizing the lipid hypothesis, but then goes on to hype the carbohydrate hypothesis, which is just as suspect. He also exercised 2+ hours per day, which is great, but hardly typical of your average fast food junky.

Super Size Me made the point if you eat a lot of fast food, including burgers, dairy, fries, and consume copious amounts of sugared sodas, and don't get enough exercise, you are going to get fat. Fat Head makes exactly the same point, only in a round about way.

As an aside, the NYT article he spoofs with humorous headlines was originally about a burger place that serves some of the best burgers I have ever tasted, made from grass fed and finished longhorns. It's in Meers, OK, a mere hop skip and jump from my current home town. The picture of the guy hugging the longhorn is the owner. He gets so much screen time, he should be in the credits.

I find the arguments between the low fat proponents and low carb proponents to be ridiculous personally. I was obese throughout my childhood and adolescence and lost about 80-90 lbs in my 20s. I didn't do it by eating low carb or low fat, I lost the weight by burning more calories than I consumed.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 08, 2013, 02:56:36 PM
First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: AJ on August 08, 2013, 03:53:24 PM
Your body does make cholesterol, not saturated fat, AFAIK. Both are good for you. No sources on my postulation, just from material I've read over the years. And the fact I've lost 20lb while eating a doz eggs a week says something to me.

It could be argued that they are good for you (tho you'd need references to do so), but not essential. The plural of anecdote is not data, so while I applaud your weight loss, it hardly proves that a vegan diet is in any way unhealthy. Personally, I lost weight when I went vegan (tho I no longer am). That one looses weight with a diet change does not prove that the change was healthy.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Vanguards and Lentils on August 08, 2013, 03:54:08 PM
First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 08, 2013, 04:12:12 PM
First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.

Except that 1/4 grain serving is just a suggestion. The reality is that most of it is ALL processed wheat and it takes up 1/2 the plate. Especially low income families that need their health the most.

Also, the logic that eating less of something that is bad for us (wheat), is healthier, is a failed one.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: PolarBeer on August 08, 2013, 04:53:33 PM
I find the arguments between the low fat proponents and low carb proponents to be ridiculous personally. I was obese throughout my childhood and adolescence and lost about 80-90 lbs in my 20s. I didn't do it by eating low carb or low fat, I lost the weight by burning more calories than I consumed.

Yep, the philosophy discussions tend to get out of hand and people are very prone to advertise what worked for them. Which is of course still anecdotal. Whether its low carb, low fat, vegan, high-everything but a crazy workout routine, Atkins, gluten-free, dairy-free or whatever. Some of these are typically attached to specific political or social views as well and tend to be reinforced that way. Since most people here don't link to peer-reviewed meta studies, but to youtube, documentaries, various web sites etc we don't really have much facts to debate either, just each other's anecdotes.

The human body is very adaptable, and you can be healthy with several types of diets or even life styles as long as there is a bit of variety and moderation. Now, I don't have sources to cite for that, but I'm gonna be cheeky and challenge anyone to prove their specific diets superiority scientifically over other diets that are also considered reasonably healthy. And no, you can't cheat and say its been "proven" to be better than an average fast food diet. That misses the whole point.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MustacheMatt on August 08, 2013, 07:17:13 PM
First we have to look at our food pyramid. It say get your calories from grains. And its no wonder why people are fat and heart disease is the number one killer!

Once you learn the truth about modern wheat, which a genetically engineered plant for the industry profits, you really wake up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23kkp7rVDUc

Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.

Except that 1/4 grain serving is just a suggestion. The reality is that most of it is ALL processed wheat and it takes up 1/2 the plate. Especially low income families that need their health the most.

Also, the logic that eating less of something that is bad for us (wheat), is healthier, is a failed one.

"I can't imagine something healthy like" is the assumption.  Your response is dead on, smoking a light version of a cigarette still isn't healthy.

Every major food and nutrition source will tell you high blood sugar causes you to be fat not to mention the host of illnesses that go with it.  They will not steer you away from foods hgh on the glycemic index however.

Maybe we've been fed a load of crap.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on August 08, 2013, 08:07:08 PM
On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: MrsPete on August 09, 2013, 07:26:11 AM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Spork on August 09, 2013, 07:37:28 AM
I find the arguments between the low fat proponents and low carb proponents to be ridiculous personally. I was obese throughout my childhood and adolescence and lost about 80-90 lbs in my 20s. I didn't do it by eating low carb or low fat, I lost the weight by burning more calories than I consumed.

Yep, the philosophy discussions tend to get out of hand and people are very prone to advertise what worked for them. Which is of course still anecdotal. Whether its low carb, low fat, vegan, high-everything but a crazy workout routine, Atkins, gluten-free, dairy-free or whatever. Some of these are typically attached to specific political or social views as well and tend to be reinforced that way. Since most people here don't link to peer-reviewed meta studies, but to youtube, documentaries, various web sites etc we don't really have much facts to debate either, just each other's anecdotes.


I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: GuitarStv on August 09, 2013, 07:39:16 AM
On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

I can confirm that soaking the beans does something that makes them much easier on the ole digestive tract.  Without overnight soaking it will be a significantly gassier time.  :P
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Spork on August 09, 2013, 07:44:41 AM
On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

I can confirm that soaking the beans does something that makes them much easier on the ole digestive tract.  Without overnight soaking it will be a significantly gassier time.  :P

You can also try Beano (digestive enzyme) taken with the beans or simethicone (over the counter drug) taken at onset of farts.  Both of these can help.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: ASquared on August 09, 2013, 09:25:44 AM
On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

I can confirm that soaking the beans does something that makes them much easier on the ole digestive tract.  Without overnight soaking it will be a significantly gassier time.  :P

Try epazote, an herb you can cook your black beans with - flavors and makes them easier on your stomach.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 09, 2013, 09:32:41 AM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: PolarBeer on August 09, 2013, 09:37:19 AM

I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

I agree. I was just too lazy to write out all the caveats. A meta study is only as good as the studies included and (especially in this field) you should do some thorough filtering before a study is included. There are also organizations and lobby groups dedicated to muddy the waters when it comes to pseudoscience and quackery who will publish their own "studies".

But since my main point was that its hard to prove the superiority of one particular diet, one might as well try to find something that works for you on a practical level but still has variety and moderation. Why worry or argue so much about the differences between several seemingly decent food philosophies that good science still hasn't been able to declare a winner from?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on August 09, 2013, 10:00:45 AM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Funny, I don't seem to be getting high after a meal of whole wheat whatever.  Perhaps if I smoked it in a bong...
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Storypage on August 09, 2013, 12:37:07 PM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Funny, I don't seem to be getting high after a meal of whole wheat whatever.  Perhaps if I smoked it in a bong...

What this site needs is a "Like" button.

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: GuitarStv on August 09, 2013, 12:58:39 PM
I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

Unless you are able to completely camouflage the appearance, texture, taste, colour and smell of the food being studied even a single blind test is impossible.  Good luck getting some test subjects to agree to a multi-month study where they can only eat unidentifiable, tasteless masses each day.  :P
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Spork on August 09, 2013, 01:39:48 PM
I'd say the real problem here is that peer reviewed meta studies on nutrition are generally just very non-scientific.  If you want to remove bias, you need a double blind study.  Most, if not damn near all, nutritional studies are either meta studies or are observational studies based on notoriously inaccurate food logs.  Neither of these is really scientific -- i.e. they're not particularly the scientific method.  They are generally not based on repeatable experimental data.

And yes: this is pretty much a problem with any nutritional theory.

Unless you are able to completely camouflage the appearance, texture, taste, colour and smell of the food being studied even a single blind test is impossible.  Good luck getting some test subjects to agree to a multi-month study where they can only eat unidentifiable, tasteless masses each day.  :P

Yep.  That's a huge part of the problem.  Even getting subjects to agree to a highly controlled multi month study where they eat really tasty food (that's been analyzed for composition) is damn near impossible.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: GuitarStv on August 09, 2013, 01:51:21 PM
See, this is where some creativity is needed.  They should head to one of those areas in Africa where everybody's starving and nobody would complain about food to run this experiment.  The people get food, the experiment gets run . . . win-win!  It's harder to cheat when there's no other food available.  Of course, there's probably some ethical problem with this concept . . .
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Russ on August 09, 2013, 04:16:18 PM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Are the five others grains MrsPete listed that aren't wheat equally as "bad for you"? (sarcasm-quotes because I believe the human body is too complex for anyone to claim a specific food is ZOMG-bad-for-you, especially when people have eaten it without trouble for quite a while now)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: unitsinc on August 09, 2013, 04:32:54 PM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Funny, I don't seem to be getting high after a meal of whole wheat whatever.  Perhaps if I smoked it in a bong...

I know it's not concrete proof, but it's something:

http://www.med.wisc.edu/news-events/wisconsin-study-links-carbohydrate-overeating-and-reaction-to-opiates/30723
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_addiction
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: unitsinc on August 09, 2013, 04:35:12 PM
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Are the five others grains MrsPete listed that aren't wheat equally as "bad for you"? (sarcasm-quotes because I believe the human body is too complex for anyone to claim a specific food is ZOMG-bad-for-you, especially when people have eaten it without trouble for quite a while now)

I agree with you that not many edibles are "zomg-bad-for-you" but certainly some things are better than others. And even if something is able to sustain you, that doesn't make it optimal.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Roses on August 09, 2013, 06:35:16 PM
On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

In our culture we've forgotten how to properly prepare legumes and grains.  Both categories are supposed to be soaked before consumption (even lentils which most people think don't need soaking).  And many of these benefit from being soaked with something like whey, or lemon juice / vinegar for a vegan option.  This not only makes them more digestible, but breaks down the antinutrients (like phytic acid) that are naturally present in many legumes and grains, thus making them healthier.  For more details check out Sally Fallon's book Nourishing Traditions (not vegan) or the Weston Price foundation: http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/be-kind-to-your-grains
I do like legumes and grains and take care to prepare them in this traditional manner whenever I can - my beans, lentils, brown rice, oats, etc.  Even some nuts.  But I still think it's best not to overdo it with grains, especially refined ones.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bonjourliz on August 09, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
My husband follows a very low-fat, mostly vegan diet b/c of health issues (2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29).  The Ornish diet plus fish, basically.  He is healthier than ever, and his cardiologist is thrilled with his current test results. 

He does get lots of questions, mostly from acquaintances who are genuinely curious as to why or how he eats this way.  He's also served as a resource for friends who want to adopt healthier diets for themselves.  Whatever hassle it is, it's been 100% worth it to him.

He had 2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29 and people question why he eats that way?!

LOL. People are pretty accepting, esp after they hear the story. Except about chicken - "you can't even have a grilled chicken breast?  Really?"
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 09, 2013, 11:16:17 PM
re: bean farts. I think there's something in particular wrong with me. I tried very hard to make the bean thing work, and I was the only one out of three of us who had gas that badly (or at all, most of the time). Sometimes I even react badly to peanuts and string beans or fresh peas mess me right up, so I think it's a legume thing.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: dweebyhawkeyes on August 10, 2013, 12:10:02 AM
Oh my goodness when I stopped eating animal products I got yelled at and beat up and was told about relatives of relatives who lost all their hair etc hahaha. I really don't get it, because I am still the same person, only healthier and softer-hearted.

The militant meat-eater attitude does get really tiring. Back in high school, when my friends found out (after a year of me not telling them because I'm not a freak who brings it up every conversation) they had noticed I had brought a tofu scramble for lunch. After several long minutes of interrogation I finally admit that I'm vegan and all hell breaks loose. They tell me how much they hate the vegan "holier-than-thou" attitude and blah blah blah. Seriously, this situation has repeated itself with so many people. I literally cannot let people know I don't eat animal products within a month of us meeting or they'll declare me a bitch and not want to talk to me. It's ridiculous.

In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bUU on August 10, 2013, 04:51:00 AM
I know some folks who regularly volunteer to help the poor, Habitat for Humanity projects, serving at soup kitchens, etc. They're doing something good for someone else, but don't do anything to project that they are "holier than thou". Yet I suspect that some folks will perceive them as such. I think such perceptions say more about the person doing the perceiving than about the person they're perceiving.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Samsam on August 10, 2013, 09:57:18 AM
In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

Sorry all that happened to you, bullying of any kind is unacceptable.  But to answer has anyone known an asshole who happened to be vegan...YES. 

When I moved out to LA from the midwest everyone just assumed the only thing I ate was steak and potatoes...Whenever I ate a vegetable or a salad everyone would be like OMG but its not meat!  I met a lot of militant vegan / vegetarian types that would want to get in an ethical battle everytime I ate a piece of bacon. 

That being said, I am not one of those meat eaters that rags on non meat eaters.  Even dated a vegetarian and it taught me to make a lot healthier side dishes.  I think this subject is just like anything else, there are people that don't care what others do and others that always want to be up in your business, whether you are eating bacon or tofu. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Kriegsspiel on August 10, 2013, 01:33:57 PM

In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

Visit your local PETA coven :)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on August 10, 2013, 02:11:33 PM
In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

Sorry all that happened to you, bullying of any kind is unacceptable.  But to answer has anyone known an asshole who happened to be vegan...YES. 

When I moved out to LA from the midwest everyone just assumed the only thing I ate was steak and potatoes...Whenever I ate a vegetable or a salad everyone would be like OMG but its not meat!  I met a lot of militant vegan / vegetarian types that would want to get in an ethical battle everytime I ate a piece of bacon. 

That being said, I am not one of those meat eaters that rags on non meat eaters.  Even dated a vegetarian and it taught me to make a lot healthier side dishes.  I think this subject is just like anything else, there are people that don't care what others do and others that always want to be up in your business, whether you are eating bacon or tofu.

Haven't you heard the old joke?  Vegan is Latin for pain in the ass.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: cats on August 10, 2013, 09:04:24 PM
I went vegetarian in high school and at the time my mother was worried about protein, iron, etc.  I read a bunch of vegetarian/vegan nutrition books and it was SUPER helpful.  It is totally possible to get enough protein, iron, calcium on a vegetarian or even vegan diet.  However, in my experience, it is not *quite* as easy as much of the veg literature would have you believe.  I got careless about things when I was in university (crazy schedule, no kitchen, too much reliance on cafeteria food) and have had to do some work since then to get my iron levels back up.  I've also recently realized that, oh, hey, I'm slacking on the protein front again, so I've been paying more attention to that again.  I stopped eating soy a couple of years ago b/c it was causing me to have very heavy periods, and when you cut that out protein does get to be harder.

For vegan sources of protein that are a little more "concentrated" than legumes (i.e., not so starchy), I like hemp protein powder and also nutritional yeast.  If I am eating properly (i.e., not eating ice cream in lieu of a meal...), getting 50-60 g of protein/day is totally doable, and getting into the 60-70 range is also pretty manageable.

Honestly, for the person asking about 200g of protein/day, how many calories overall are you talking about someone taking in?  Obviously getting that many grams on a "standard" diet of 2000-2500 calories/day is going to be hard, but if you are an elite athlete you are probably working out enough to need a LOT more calories, so 200g is not that hard.  I mean, I get 50-60g on about 2000 calories/day, so if I were suddenly Michael Phelps and eating 10k calories/day, my protein intake would automatically go up to 250g if I just scaled everything up.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 10, 2013, 10:09:36 PM
Honestly, for the person asking about 200g of protein/day, how many calories overall are you talking about someone taking in?  Obviously getting that many grams on a "standard" diet of 2000-2500 calories/day is going to be hard, but if you are an elite athlete you are probably working out enough to need a LOT more calories, so 200g is not that hard.  I mean, I get 50-60g on about 2000 calories/day, so if I were suddenly Michael Phelps and eating 10k calories/day, my protein intake would automatically go up to 250g if I just scaled everything up.

I eat 2200 calories on my off or easy days (2/week or so) and about 2600 on my hard days. Regardless I get at least 180g of protein. I'm a 175lb 6' male. Not an elite athlete, just a guy who likes being active and cares about performance. I've gotten pretty sweet results at the same caloric intake and >220g of protein but it's obviously not sustainable and those are like hamburger+tuna+5 egg days.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: cats on August 10, 2013, 11:44:26 PM
Honestly, for the person asking about 200g of protein/day, how many calories overall are you talking about someone taking in?  Obviously getting that many grams on a "standard" diet of 2000-2500 calories/day is going to be hard, but if you are an elite athlete you are probably working out enough to need a LOT more calories, so 200g is not that hard.  I mean, I get 50-60g on about 2000 calories/day, so if I were suddenly Michael Phelps and eating 10k calories/day, my protein intake would automatically go up to 250g if I just scaled everything up.

I eat 2200 calories on my off or easy days (2/week or so) and about 2600 on my hard days. Regardless I get at least 180g of protein. I'm a 175lb 6' male. Not an elite athlete, just a guy who likes being active and cares about performance. I've gotten pretty sweet results at the same caloric intake and >220g of protein but it's obviously not sustainable and those are like hamburger+tuna+5 egg days.

If it's working for you, great, but 180g sounds like a lot to me.  That's over 30% of your calories from protein--I suspect most omnivores aren't even getting that much and would find that it takes some careful attention to diet to do so.  Most recommendations I have seen are in the 0.8-1 g protein per kg bodyweight range.  I don't want to be rude but if someone is really finding that they need to eat a diet that high in protein to get the performance they need/want, I do wonder what they have been eating in lieu of high protein foods when they aren't getting an acceptable level of performance.  If one tends to replace high protein foods with things like bread, that's quite a bit different than replacing it with, say, a bowl full of kale sauteed in coconut oil.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: tuyop on August 11, 2013, 09:56:41 AM
If it's working for you, great, but 180g sounds like a lot to me.  That's over 30% of your calories from protein--I suspect most omnivores aren't even getting that much and would find that it takes some careful attention to diet to do so.  Most recommendations I have seen are in the 0.8-1 g protein per kg bodyweight range.  I don't want to be rude but if someone is really finding that they need to eat a diet that high in protein to get the performance they need/want, I do wonder what they have been eating in lieu of high protein foods when they aren't getting an acceptable level of performance.  If one tends to replace high protein foods with things like bread, that's quite a bit different than replacing it with, say, a bowl full of kale sauteed in coconut oil.

I was experiencing a lot of injury and stalls when eating <80g of protein per day on a paleo diet. So my meals would be things like big-ass salads, chicken with sweet potato, a white fish stirfry on quinoa, a bit of fruit, lots of almonds and various seeds, three or four meals of meat and half a dozen eggs a week. Same caloric intake, never any dairy, grains or legumes. The quality of foods was not the problem. Veggie content is equal now, I eat peanuts, but I just get a lot more dairy and significantly more meat.

If it matters, I'm just following in the footsteps of fantastic strength athletes for the past like 2000 years: (http://www.topendsports.com/nutrition/olympic-ancient.htm)

Quote
"Milon of Croton used to eat 20 pounds of meat and as many of bread, and he drank three pitchers of wine. And at Olympia he put a four-year-old bull on his shoulders and carried it around the stadium; after which, he cut it up and ate it all alone in a single day."

:D
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on August 12, 2013, 09:35:36 AM
Threads like this make me like Michael Pollan more and more. It's not about opioid receptors, gliodin, or omega threes. It's about food!

Eat food, not too much, mostly plants FTW.

Regarding vegan-questioning: no matter what spirit it's meant in, you'll certainly come out of the conversation happier if you choose to interpret it in the spirit of polite small-talk and well-intentioned curiosity rather than crucifixion. So do.

Lastly, for anyone reading this thread and falling into analysis paralysis: there are several steps you can take that nobody in this thread would disagree with. If you're going to eat meat, lean meats are at least as good as fatty ones. If you're going to eat grains, eating whole grains is better, and eating many different whole grains (barley, oats, quinoa, brown rice...) is better still. When you eat vegetables, it's better to eat a greater variety of them, and to eat the darker green ones over the lighter ones (brussels sprouts>iceberg). When you cook with fats, olive oil and butter are preferable to yellow food coloring and hydrogenated soybean oil. Tackle all of those changes first and you'll be pretty well off, even if talking heads on the innertubes disagree about the ratio of your food groups.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on April 05, 2014, 01:37:33 PM
Not to necro a dead thread, but I finally got around to watching Forks over Knives today while shining my shoes. I'm about halfway done and I'm really enjoying it so far.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on April 05, 2014, 02:54:13 PM
I spoke too soon, I think. The first part is nice but the end is very much "one cancer patient ate plants and then her cancer disappeared" and "correlation=causation" and "this trend is clear among the eight countries we cherry-picked for our bar graph".
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: ketchup on April 05, 2014, 03:21:33 PM
I spoke too soon, I think. The first part is nice but the end is very much "one cancer patient ate plants and then her cancer disappeared" and "correlation=causation" and "this trend is clear among the eight countries we cherry-picked for our bar graph".
Yeah, I found it disappointing as well.  We didn't realize it was so pro-vegan before we watched it on Netflix.  And I'll admit I started laughing when I realized it was leading up to a big "revelation" about The China Study, which is as flawed as Ancel Keys' Seven Countries Study.  The most interesting part about it to me though from that standpoint was that none of the people that "went vegan" ever talked about the meat they used to eat before.  Most of it was "I used to eat candy bars all the time".  It wasn't the lack of meat that made those people healthier; it was the lack of junk food.  The documentary kept grouping animal-based food and processed food together healthwise, which really doesn't make any sense.  Roast beef is not pop tarts.  Scrambled eggs are not Oreos.  Broiled wild Alaskan salmon with lemon-garlic-butter sauce is not donuts.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: catccc on April 05, 2014, 05:12:42 PM
I get this after being vegetarian for 18 years.  I just say it works for me.  They really can't say anything to that.  "It isn't the best choice for everyone, but it works for me."
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: ToughMother on April 05, 2014, 05:25:29 PM
re: bean farts. I think there's something in particular wrong with me. I tried very hard to make the bean thing work, and I was the only one out of three of us who had gas that badly (or at all, most of the time). Sometimes I even react badly to peanuts and string beans or fresh peas mess me right up, so I think it's a legume thing.

Sounds more like an allergy w GI symptoms than mere dietary adjustment as others have suggested.  I can't eat peanuts, soy beans, and peas without a massive allergic reaction (epi-pen level) and have gotten so scared off, that I've given up on legumes completely (not really fun to try out new beans with that sort of reaction). 

All this limits the hell out of what you can eat and I therefore do need to get my protein from non-legume/non-dairy (yea, more bloody allergies) sources.  I don't eat much meat at all, but just enough now, after being vegetarian for years.  My doc, also a vegetarian, suggested it after my measurable blood protein levels were too low.  I feel much better now and since it doesn't take much meat to get sufficient protein, I spend the money to make sure it is clean, organic meat (95% poultry).

Anyway, there are indeed situations where you can't get by without meat, but I know that isn't the norm.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Silverwood on April 05, 2014, 05:53:16 PM
My parents freaked out when my brother and I talked about not eating meat. Now my dad is on a diet/ life style change and has actually been losing weight. He eats almost no meat, just a little fish. It took his Dr to get him to do it but the change is significant.  Both physically and mentally.  They were actually interested when they found out I was juicing.

I have to eat in the cafeteria at work and there is usually around 200 people there.  I totally get how annoying it can be to explain what/ why your eating. I think most people are curious.  I also had no idea what I'd be eating when I first took out gluten/dairy/ etc. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 05, 2014, 07:57:46 PM
Re: Loud Vegans.

There an awful lot of "loud" meat eaters out there. My office caters meals fairly frequently, so I asked the organizer if she could include a vegetarian option for me. I guess she sent out some kind of memo because everyone in the office instantly knew I was a vegetarian and came to tell me about how much they love meat.

I have seriously never initiated the "vegetarian conversation" with anyone, but have somehow had it with almost everyone. It usually entails people asking what kind of meat I miss the most. It always ends with a final statement professing love of meat.

For every vegan friend I have on Facebook who posts memes deploring the treatment of animals, I have two carnivorous friends who post photos of meat. A good portion of them seem to fetishize bacon.

Back when I ate meat and liked bacon, I had one friend post an entire photo shoot of herself wearing a self-crafted bra made out of raw bacon. Is that really better than a vegan telling me that eating dairy is wrong? The answer is no. The bacon bra put me off bacon. I still eat dairy.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Thegoblinchief on April 05, 2014, 08:26:04 PM
We eat very little meat but cheese is my home boy.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 05, 2014, 09:16:42 PM
As a biologist, I am going a bit crazy over the misuse of terms in this thread. To clarify: a herbivore eats plants (well actually, most herbivores mostly eat bacteria, but that is another topic).  An omnivore eats plants and meat. A carnivore eats meat.  Meat includes all animals, so yes if you eat fish, frogs, snakes, birds or mammals, or lobster, shrimp, scallops, and insects, you are eating meat.  You cannot be a vegetarian and eat any of those.  Really, technically, you can't eat eggs either, and you are pushing it with dairy.

Re humans - we are omnivores - look at our teeth and gut.  This means we have flexibility, just like raccoons (two very adaptable and successful species).  So we can eat a range from all plants to all animals, depending on what is available and what we like or are used to eating.  Most of us are somewhere in the middle. 

We need cholesterol, it is a major component of all our cell membranes, very important for brain function (especially growing brains) and is the precursor for many hormones (especially testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone).  It is very hard for our liver to make all we need.  We also need essential fatty acids, the fact that they are called essential indicates we can't make them, we have to eat them, just like vitamins.

When we choose to shift to more plant consumption, we have to plan our diet based on the fact that we are still in a predator/prey relationship - in fact my favourite Ecology textbook has two chapters on predator/prey relationships, the first chapter is plants and animals, the second is animals and animals.  We have to remember that plants that are tasty and harmless do not do well, evolutionarily speaking, they get eaten.  So they have lots of defenses.  I can't say plants invented chemical warfare, because bacteria did, but they are very good at it.  And what is a plant going to invest the most defense in? Its seeds, so there will be a next generation.  This is why we have all sorts of traditional cooking methods that deal with toxins in grains and legumes.  And of course modern domesticated plants have had most of their defenses bred out.

General reading - first, the China Study, as already mentioned, is garbage - he cherry picked his data.  Read Denise Minger's blog or new book on that.  Fat Head is worth watching, and the web site gives lots of other good nutrition blogs. Wheat Belly is worth reading.

And really required reading is The Vegetarian Myth.  Its author is Lierre Keith, and she has taken a lot of abuse.  She comes at the vegetarian/vegan diet from pretty well all approaches.

OK, off my soapbox.  Sorry this was so long.  Can you tell that I used to teach Biology?

Where am I in all this?  I am low-carb - I was pre-pre diabetic, and now I am fine, plus a lot of other health issues are gone.  I am particularly careful with grains (don't eat them at all), because I react very badly to them. Same with mature legumes, I am okay with green beans and snap peas.  I eat lots of fat and a moderate amount of various meats, and some dairy (not milk).  I eat lots of plants - lots of vegetables and a moderate amount of fruit.  All those lovely plant anti-oxidants are fat-soluble - so I make sure I have fat in the same meal so I get their benefit.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 05, 2014, 09:27:34 PM


We need cholesterol, it is a major component of all our cell membranes, very important for brain function (especially growing brains) and is the precursor for many hormones (especially testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone).  It is very hard for our liver to make all we need.  We also need essential fatty acids, the fact that they are called essential indicates we can't make them, we have to eat them, just like vitamins.


Curious about the cholesterol thing; I've never ran across anything saying the cholesterol was not made in sufficient quantities within our bodies. Do you have references for this?

I myself came to a vegan diet as an experiment after being on a paleo-ish diet for 2 years. It's made me feel great, but I'm probably unusual for a vegan in that I still don't eat processed grains and sugars, sprout all of my legumes, and eat a pretty fat rich diet. I'm still young, but physically I feel the best at any point in my life thus far.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: NinetyFour on April 05, 2014, 09:29:56 PM
Clarkai, would you mind giving some more info about how you sprout all of your legumes?

And what are your source of fat?

I have been vegetarian for many years, and eat very little dairy.

Thanks!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 05, 2014, 09:52:17 PM
Clarkai, would you mind giving some more info about how you sprout all of your legumes?

And what are your source of fat?

I have been vegetarian for many years, and eat very little dairy.

Thanks!

Heh, well I cook a lot and am a bit of a health nut, so this might seem like more work for other people. But, I start by soaking the legume for at least 24 hours, and then I have a handy-dandy steamer that when not plugged in serves as a great sprouting chamber. Basically, after they've soaked for a day, I rinse them, and then put them in a container where they won't be sitting in water but will be in a moist environment. When they've obviously sprouted (I usually wait until the root is about half as long as the legume (more often I forget and it's as long- once they get going they're fast!)), I cook them in just enough water to cover (they've absorbed a lot already, so they don't tend to absorb any more) and let them sit a bit once done, or steam them (I've only steamed lentils so far). It takes a lot less time to cook sprouted legumes; my de puy lentils which used to cook for 25 minutes are now done in under 15. You can also freeze 'em after cooking which allows batch cooking.

Meat eaters will say that that sounds like a lot of work, but I find it less work than cleaning off the cutting board after preparing meat. Oh, and soaking makes my farts less frequent and less odoriferous.

As to fats, well, I eat a lot of olive oil, coconut oil and milk, flax seeds, and avocados. I also eat almonds, sunflower seeds and pumpkin seeds and so forth, but less often as they seem more expensive and I like them less. I'm not afraid of coconut oil like some because the studies I read indicated it was either neutral or slightly beneficial in some cases. 

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: apoclater on April 05, 2014, 10:01:35 PM
I didn't read through this thread, but my guess is there is some discussion (heated or not) about the China Study, Mark Sisson, and some food documentaries on Netflix.  My experience in discussing nutrition with people is it's just as dogmatic as religion.  There's always another new source or study that someone claims is biased, and people will dig up sources that support whatever they want to believe.

I do miss my grocery bill when I was vegan, but I don't miss anything else about it.  I got sick, I had eczema and acne, and I had absolutely no energy.  I switched to paleo/primal last year, and I'll never go back.  Not only is my acne gone and I'm on a 1.5ish year long streak of not getting sick, but I feel awesome and I'm happy.  It works for me and I'm sticking to it.  That being said, I think it's just as likely someone has the exact opposite experience, and hopefully they stick to their diet plan if they like it.

The one thing I'll say is that while you get asked why you don't eat meat, people ask me how I eat this much meat.  I can't tell you how many people have said "You eat beef daily?  You know you're going to get a heart attack, right?"  You can't win telling people about your diet.  I just keep my mouth shut, and let my appearance and health speak for me.  It's not worth the attention and arguments that come of it.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on April 06, 2014, 04:33:53 AM
I have been veg for 21 years and vegan for 8 of those years, I have felt fine without meat, fish, eggs and dairy.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 06, 2014, 06:41:23 AM
We are all unique, so we will all find we do best on different diets.  A lot of the vegetarians/vegans posting here are eating consciously (i.e. appropriate food prep) so they are also eating better than the SAD.  If I were still eating wheat, I would be trying to find pre-Green Revolution strains for my cooking.

Global warming - people who eat a lot of legumes without the appropriate prep are adding a lot of methane to the atmosphere - a major greenhouse gas - not to mention socially unfortunate.  Basically  this is because they do not digest some soluble carbohydrates, but their gut bacteria do in anaerobic fermentation and methane is one by-product.

Cholesterol synthesis - I will try to find the reference, and again it is individual, some will be fine, others not.  How healthy is the liver?  How much is that person's body using?  And not only are there species differences (i.e. cats need more taurine than dogs do, which is why dogs love commercial cat food and cats should not eat commercial dog food, not that they would demean themselves to do that) but there are differences within a species (arctic breeds of dogs need more zinc, I have no idea why, but they do).  So general guidelines don't always work well for people either.

And our genetic background matters - mine is western European (British Isles) so I have no problems with dairy, I can digest lactose.  But many genetic backgrounds make lactose indigestible, no lactase in adulthood, so what I can eat is not what they can eat.

Nutrition research has all the obvious problems doing good double blind studies, people make poor experimental animals for long-term studies.  And we are not rodents, the domestic animal whose digestive system is most like ours is the pig.  But physiology studies can be very helpful.  And look at other species - when you look at herbivores with high-cellulose diets, you find fore or hind gut fermenters, they have bacteria and protozoans doing their digestion for them.  Animals without that are much pickier about their food, they eat tender nutritious leaves, fruit, other digestible plant parts, and tend to have long intestines. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 06, 2014, 10:43:32 AM
As a biologist, I am going a bit crazy over the misuse of terms in this thread. To clarify: a herbivore eats plants (well actually, most herbivores mostly eat bacteria, but that is another topic).  An omnivore eats plants and meat. A carnivore eats meat.  Meat includes all animals, so yes if you eat fish, frogs, snakes, birds or mammals, or lobster, shrimp, scallops, and insects, you are eating meat.  You cannot be a vegetarian and eat any of those.  Really, technically, you can't eat eggs either, and you are pushing it with dairy.

Sure. I could "clarify" and say I'm a Lacto-Ovo Pescatarian. But if I ever do that in common conversation, I deserve to be slapped in the face with a slab of bacon.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 06, 2014, 02:28:59 PM
Ooh, bacon - that would be worth the slap in the face.  But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 
And yes, I do understand that generally speaking, vegetarians will eat dairy and sometimes eggs (future meat, if they are fertile, which most are not).  And vegans eat only plant materials.  But fish?  Animals have to live on land to count as meat? 

As a biologist, I am going a bit crazy over the misuse of terms in this thread. To clarify: a herbivore eats plants (well actually, most herbivores mostly eat bacteria, but that is another topic).  An omnivore eats plants and meat. A carnivore eats meat.  Meat includes all animals, so yes if you eat fish, frogs, snakes, birds or mammals, or lobster, shrimp, scallops, and insects, you are eating meat.  You cannot be a vegetarian and eat any of those.  Really, technically, you can't eat eggs either, and you are pushing it with dairy.

Sure. I could "clarify" and say I'm a Lacto-Ovo Pescatarian. But if I ever do that in common conversation, I deserve to be slapped in the face with a slab of bacon.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bacchi on April 06, 2014, 03:35:23 PM
Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

That's old data. Ancient man had heart disease and cancer as well.

'"Atherosclerosis is ubiquitous among modern day humans and, despite differences in ancient and modern lifestyles, we found that it was rather common in ancient Egyptians of high socioeconomic status living as much as three millennia ago," says UC Irvine clinical professor of cardiology Dr. Gregory Thomas, a co-principal investigator on the study. "The findings suggest that we may have to look beyond modern risk factors to fully understand the disease."'


Edit:
Here's the Lancet article on heart disease in mummies: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2960598-X/abstract

Note that some Aleutians (Alaskan natives) were in the study. Aleutians, of course, eat mostly meat and some berries. No grains are in their diet. Other ancient diets around the world also produced heart disease.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bacchi on April 06, 2014, 03:55:45 PM
  Read Denise Minger's blog or new book on that. 

Yeah, yeah, then read the criticism of Denise Minger's blog criticizing The China Study. As it turns out, she (Minger) cherry-picked her data and has correlation/causation problems.

As someone (spork?) above noted, nutritional (and diet/exercise) studies are almost inherently flawable. The African study idea might work or maybe a soylent experiment would work.

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 06, 2014, 05:15:20 PM
But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 

Well, unfertilized eggs aren't living and they aren't flesh, so I don't know why they qualify as meat. I certainly wouldn't disclaim anyone's vegetarian "creds" over eggs.

As for fish - indeed, that makes me a Pescatarian. But why on Earth would I invite further inquiry AND make myself sound pretentious about  my dietary habits, when for most people and in most contexts, the word Vegetarian is simple, understandable and covers it?

I can never understand why people quibble over the label. Are you so concerned about my dietary habits that the word matters? It offends your linguistic sensibilities?

It's my line to draw. Why do you care where I draw it and what I call it?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 06, 2014, 05:41:23 PM
An unfertilized egg is alive, it is one big cell, just never going to be a chicken. 

I don't care what you eat, and if you are happy with your health, great.  What I suppose I am having trouble with generally, not you specifically, is that people say they don't eat meat when they do - they eat fish.  So technically they are piscivores, just like animals who eat insects are insectivores, but except in class I don't bother with the technical terms (and there are lots once you get into Ecology as a discipline).  But really they are omnivores, they are eating plants and animals. 

And thinking globally, not you specifically, since you are a piscivore maybe you can explain some of the thinking behind this - do you not count fish as meat? And if not, why not?  So I guess I do have a problem with the terminology, it seems to make fish the equivalent of plants instead of the amazing animals they are.  And if they are discounted then people potentially are not going to have the same concerns over their welfare.   And if you do think of fish as meat, then why do you self-identify as a vegetarian?  Why don't you just say to people that the only meat you eat, when you do feel like eating meat, is fish?  That avoids all sorts of further social issues - you just said what you like to eat in simple English, and just don't happen to be eating it at the moment.  I know what I am, I'm an omnivore.  There is lots of leeway in that term.

And socially, I know from personal experience that any eating outside the North American norm gets inquiries, and since most people have no problem eating grains, those of us who don't tend to get "pushers" - "have a little bit of this dessert, its a treat, it won't hurt you" when it will hurt me, in a way that is not fun to discuss with acquaintances.  My point here is that we all have to sometimes dance around with verbal explanations of what we are or are not eating.  These days it's a lot easier to say "I basically eat vegetarian, except for a bit of fish now and then" than it is to say "I don't eat any grains".

Sorry, this is getting long, let's let other people get a word in edgewise  ;-)

But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 

Well, unfertilized eggs aren't living and they aren't flesh, so I don't know why they qualify as meat. I certainly wouldn't disclaim anyone's vegetarian "creds" over eggs.

As for fish - indeed, that makes me a Pescatarian. But why on Earth would I invite further inquiry AND make myself sound pretentious about  my dietary habits, when for most people and in most contexts, the word Vegetarian is simple, understandable and covers it?

I can never understand why people quibble over the label. Are you so concerned about my dietary habits that the word matters? It offends your linguistic sensibilities?

It's my line to draw. Why do you care where I draw it and what I call it?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 06, 2014, 05:44:14 PM
But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 

Well, unfertilized eggs aren't living and they aren't flesh, so I don't know why they qualify as meat. I certainly wouldn't disclaim anyone's vegetarian "creds" over eggs.

As for fish - indeed, that makes me a Pescatarian. But why on Earth would I invite further inquiry AND make myself sound pretentious about  my dietary habits, when for most people and in most contexts, the word Vegetarian is simple, understandable and covers it?

I can never understand why people quibble over the label. Are you so concerned about my dietary habits that the word matters? It offends your linguistic sensibilities?

It's my line to draw. Why do you care where I draw it and what I call it?

It's interesting, because usually I hear this argument from the other side. I.e., ovo-lactos complaining about pescatarian because then people assume that all vegetarians eat fish- which is a very common assumption where I live. Personally, I get it. I'm mostly vegan, but will make exceptions for oysters and mussels for very particular reasons that would bore most people. So I just tell 'em I'm vegan because that serves the situation best.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 06, 2014, 05:54:30 PM
I suppose it is regional - if someone tells me they are vegetarian I guess that they may (or may not) eat some eggs and/or dairy. Maybe, but probably not, fish.  If they say vegan I assume nothing animal - no eggs, no dairy, no fish, no sea-food, no nothing - i.e. really truly vegetarian.

Food choices are really so personal anyway, I will eat scallops, mussels and oysters when they cooked, but not raw.  Others love them in the shell.  I was once served a chowder that had tiny baby octopi in it, and I couldn't eat them, it was purely emotional/visceral, but I just couldn't.  Ate everything else, so it was truly irrational.

[

It's interesting, because usually I hear this argument from the other side. I.e., ovo-lactos complaining about pescatarian because then people assume that all vegetarians eat fish- which is a very common assumption where I live. Personally, I get it. I'm mostly vegan, but will make exceptions for oysters and mussels for very particular reasons that would bore most people. So I just tell 'em I'm vegan because that serves the situation best.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 06, 2014, 07:33:29 PM
An unfertilized egg is alive, it is one big cell, just never going to be a chicken. 

...since you are a piscivore maybe you can explain some of the thinking behind this - do you not count fish as meat? And if not, why not? 

I see your point about it being alive on a cellular level. But I don't worry too much about all of the bacteria I kill when I clean my toilet, either. They may be living in a biological sense, but I don't really consider them living in a... spiritual sense? I'm not sure if that's the right word. There's no elevated life form there. I didn't think that I killed something when I accidentally cut off the tip of my finger, either, and it was probably more alive than eggs!

I say I'm a "vegetarian" because it's easy. When I say, "Can you include a vegetarian option for lunch," it's easy to understand. Whatever they pick will fit the bill for me. I don't need to give them a list of things that are exceptions to the rule. I primarily don't give details because I wasn't always a vegetarian - I don't know if I will always eat fish. And from experience, I know that the decision can come along very quickly, with no particular trigger. One day I may decide that eating fish is something that I can no longer ethically tolerate, and I don't want to have to explain my sudden change the next time the office orders lunch. So to answer your question in a round about way - I do count fish as animals and I do consider it meat.

I think that keeping and killing animals for meat causes suffering, pain, sorrow and fear to other creatures. I believe this to be true. How can we justify this when we don't need meat for health or survival? For myself, I reasoned that if I sourced humanely-raised meat, then it was ok - but my husband didn't feel that way and I understood his feelings, so we became vegetarians.

At first, I didn't want to give up fish because I wanted to ensure a well-rounded, healthy diet. Whatever the ethics were, our health should come first. Furthermore, I could not find convincing evidence that fish feel pain and I do not believe they have emotions. I don't know if we're being cruel to fish by eating them. That said, I also haven't found convincing evidence that fish are necessary to a healthy diet, so when and if my husband decides he wants to give it up, I will too.

I personally have a bigger ethical issue with eggs and milk than I do with fish - but for health reasons, I do not want to become vegan. So instead, I try to make conscientious purchasing choices.

Sorry to turn this into an essay. But you asked. :)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Argyle on April 06, 2014, 08:39:28 PM
I believe it's now generally agreed that fish feel pain.  And why would they not?  It's nature's signal to avoid something.  I am reminded of the quote:

"They told me that the fish were cold-blooded and felt no pain.  But they were not fish who told me." Heywood Broun
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on April 07, 2014, 06:17:34 AM
Labels bother me because I want to know that when I order a vegan meal in a restaurant that it will be vegan and not contain animal products. Luckily over here in the UK labels are usually very good and food is labelled correctly.:)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 07, 2014, 06:38:42 AM
I believe it's now generally agreed that fish feel pain.  And why would they not?  It's nature's signal to avoid something.  I am reminded of the quote:

"They told me that the fish were cold-blooded and felt no pain.  But they were not fish who told me." Heywood Broun

Well, I researched it fairly recently, and I found that there is very little agreement on the subject.

The studies that have made conclusions on one side or the other come under fire fairly equally for biases and methodology problems. The debate seems to come down to: Fish avoid things that physically harm them - is this the same thing as pain? The argument against is that they do not have pain receptors as we know and understand them and that their brains don't contain the necessary components.

The argument for fish feeling pain is that fish react to negative stimuli, so whether or not they feel pain as we understand "pain," they must feel some version of pain. Just because we don't understand what exactly fish feel - if anything - does that make it ok to hurt them?

And does pain matter if fish feel no emotions associated with pain?

I don't have all the answers. I'm not a philosopher and I'm not a scientist. I just try to make the right choices for my personal well-being. In real life, I avoid these kinds of debates with anyone other than my husband. Using the word "vegetarian" works for me. No one really needs to know the nitty-gritty details of that that word means to me.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 07, 2014, 06:43:56 AM
@CpaCAt

Thank you for the explanation - I see now why you use the terms you do.

And yes, fish feel pain.  They have pain receptors - they are vertebrates, with a well-developed nervous system.  In Canada the Canadian Council on Animal Care has strict pain management guidelines for all vertebrates, plus squid and octopi because they also have well-developed nervous systems.

Even one-celled organisms appear to feel discomfort as they will move away from things that are bad for them.  Can we call it pain? But we do know they respond.

I have had many discussions with veterinarians about means of death - the general feeling is that how an animal (or person) dies is more important than the death itself, that the death should be painless or as close to painless as possible.

@Londoner

This is why I think I get fussy about terms as well - if we don't agree on what we mean by a word, then we can't depend on the word.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: highwayskies on April 07, 2014, 07:09:57 AM
When asked why you're making a food choice (or doing anything differently), you're inevitably pointing a finger back at the person, no matter your answer, and saying "but you're not."  Keep this in mind when answering, and rethink how answers like "I'm trying to eat more healthy" sound.  (Maybe this also applies to your stock answer to "You don't have a TV?" or "Why wouldn't you want a bigger house?")  It can definitely spark feelings of defensiveness of their own choice (whether they verbally push back, or not). 

To all of these questions, "This just feels like the right thing for me right now" is a pretty safe answer.  Something in this ballpark is still my answer about my diet choice after 15 years.

Isa Chandra Moskowitz has amazing vegan cooking/baking recipes, if you'd like to check some of the very best out.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 07, 2014, 08:31:41 AM


And yes, fish feel pain.  They have pain receptors - they are vertebrates, with a well-developed nervous system.  In Canada the Canadian Council on Animal Care has strict pain management guidelines for all vertebrates, plus squid and octopi because they also have well-developed nervous systems.

Even one-celled organisms appear to feel discomfort as they will move away from things that are bad for them.  Can we call it pain? But we do know they respond.


This is interesting to me, as an amateur biologist, because in my own research and in most of the research I've read, they made the distinction between nociception (reaction to noxious stimulus, unconscious as in our own reflex arc {you withdraw your hand from something hot before you've consciously felt the pain}) which would cover bacteria, and pain (reaction to noxious stimulus which is processed by the brain (and thus a conscious feeling) and has an emotional component). I probably spent too much time reading research articles, but it's interesting to me. I do admit that I skipped right on down to bivalves, specifically mussels and oysters, because they clearly do not have brains,  have only rudimentary ganglia, and lack endogenous opiates or opiate receptors to inhibit pain. This to me (and a boat load of others) shows that what they have are rudimentary reflex arcs, rather than a true ability to feel pain.

Of course, they are my only exception for a number of other reasons to, relating to their effect on the environment, content of B12 and Omega 3s, and surprisingly to me when I looked it up, have one of the lowest mercury contamination of seafood.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Spork on April 07, 2014, 10:13:37 AM
  Read Denise Minger's blog or new book on that. 

Yeah, yeah, then read the criticism of Denise Minger's blog criticizing The China Study. As it turns out, she (Minger) cherry-picked her data and has correlation/causation problems.


You don't have to read further than Minger to find those.  She says it out right in her China Study criticisms.  Her point was not to prove "meat = good" but to criticize the China Study.  She suggests (with long and great caveats) wheat may be the issue but goes to great lengths to say she has no proof whatsoever and further study would be required.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cromacster on April 07, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/9a/9aefbf010edcae7ef383b1ff1ae02a6b45b6a708d827af0d94d2fac17928c6aa.jpg)

Side note:  No offense intended with this post, just what comes to mind when veganism comes up.  Simpsons have covered it all.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 22, 2014, 04:27:22 PM
Whoo, good job killing the thread :p

Anyway, anybody else just have Easter with non-vegans? I brought a pile of legume based salads to our get-together. First time we'd been asked by this side of the family why we went vegan, and told them simply enough that I had worked on a chicken farm for 6 months. My SO mentioned Mad Cow, so that was fun.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: mikefixac on April 22, 2014, 09:46:29 PM
I'm overjoyed this topic gets discussed. Today I read a positive article about veganism in a right wing magazine. Written by Matthew Scully who wrote a marvelous book called "Dominion".

As far as having to defend or being asked why I eat the way I do, it rarely happens. I've been doing it for so long I guess I just don't pay too much attention to it.

As time has gone by though I find I'm getting even more strict with my diet, especially with salt. I think a high salt diet increases blood pressure which eventually enlarges the heart which leads to heart disease. Therefore, I eat out much less than I used to.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on April 22, 2014, 10:38:20 PM
Heh, you think you have problems getting people to accept that you are vegan?  Try explaining to people that you relish hunting and eating squirrels.  I think when my youngest gets married I will take the opportunity to embarrass her by mentioning that her second grade teacher uncomfortably asked DW, "Does your family eat squirrel?" after a school assignment that involved naming one's favorite foods.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 22, 2014, 10:53:10 PM
Makes me want to do a poll: Which is weirder: Not eating any meat, milk, eggs, fish, honey, etc, or eatting squirrel?

Honestly, I don't really care if people accept it, I just find it strange that since I'm a vegan, all my food becomes *vegan* food. I mean, the hummus was vegan before I was.

I love it when people say they can't eat vegan food, because the mental image of them basically saying they can't eat any vegetables, fruits, grains, legumes, mushrooms, etc is just too ridiculous.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on April 22, 2014, 10:55:17 PM
Wait, what is the alleged problem with honey?
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 22, 2014, 11:14:14 PM
Depends on who you ask. Definitionally, it's not vegan, because it's an animal product. (This is the part where most people start looking at you weird, if they haven't already).

I personally don't eat it because I don't do well with concentrated forms of sugar. You can also look at the apicultural practices combined with over all agricultural practice and the whole problem of colony collapse disorder, which there is still a lot of disagreement over. A lot of vegans have a problem with it because beekeepers take the honey, pollen, and queen jelly from the hives (replacing them with cheaper and less nutritionally valuable products such as refined sugar), requeen hives, and ship bee hives all over the country, aiding the spread of disease. Other vegans don't see it as that big of a deal.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 22, 2014, 11:52:18 PM
I'm overjoyed this topic gets discussed. Today I read a positive article about veganism in a right wing magazine. Written by Matthew Scully who wrote a marvelous book called "Dominion".


Do you happen to have a link to that article? I'm very interested.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on April 23, 2014, 06:17:35 AM
Maybe this one? (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/359761/pro-life-pro-animal-matthew-scully)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Russ on April 23, 2014, 06:29:34 AM
As time has gone by though I find I'm getting even more strict with my diet, especially with salt. I think a high salt diet increases blood pressure which eventually enlarges the heart which leads to heart disease. Therefore, I eat out much less than I used to.

ok

make sure you get enough

cooking at home all the time and never adding salt is just as unhealthy
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 23, 2014, 10:18:48 AM
This has turned into a great food discussion, thanks to everyone!

Foods labeled vegan - how funny/odd.  Just because they are totally plant-based doesn't mean they are only for vegans.  Lots of people who eat meat also enjoy lots of plant-based foods - very few of us are actually carnivores, we are omnivores, plants and animals!  Its all in the labeling, just like saying a plant product is cholesterol-free is true but irrelevant, only animal products contain cholesterol, plants don't make it.  Marketers will say anything to make their products look more attractive.

Salt - I find that the less I eat processed foods, the more free salt I eat - it is not abundant in my diet anymore.

Honey - I had never thought about it in vegan terms - yes it is made by animals (bees) but it is a plant product (concentrated nectar).  I suppose I look at it like wool and other animal fibres, no animals are harmed in the harvesting. Interesting factoid, the US is the world's largest producer of mohair.

As with animal products (how the animals are raised matters) how the honey is harvested matters.  Top bar beekeepers tend to harvest in spring, so there is no danger of the bees running out over the winter, some beekeepers are careful with fall harvest so they don't have to supplement in spring.  One thing no-one will do is supplement with honey from other hives in the spring, because of the possibility of disease transmission.  CCD is not something beekeepers have a lot of control over, since no-one is totally sure about its cause, although nicotinoid insecticides are now suspect.  Beekeepers have no control over what farmers spray, unfortunately, so it is up to depts. of agriculture, and agricultural legislation to intervene here.  The EU has banned these pesticides, so it will be interesting to see if that helps.  Top bar beekeepers wonder if the pre-formed brood foundation affects colony health since the bees have no choice about brood cell size.

Of course anyone avoiding excessive sugar needs to avoid honey, maple syrup, etc. since they are all massively concentrated sugars, and the small amounts of minerals and enzymes they might contain don't offset that.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 23, 2014, 10:30:27 AM
Since fish don't talk, it is hard to ask them if they are in pain.  All we can do is look at behaviour and brain activity.  As I said, the CCAC categorizes all animals with well-developed nervous systems as feeling some degree of pain.  That eliminates most invertebrates, who seem to be showing nociception only.

The take-home message for me is that we need to treat animals with respect.  For game animals, including fish,  that means a "good death" - I don't hunt, but I hang out with people who do, and they make sure they kill cleanly and fast, no wounded animal running off into the forest to die a long and painful death.  Not acceptable.  Same for fishing.

Re mercury contamination, it depends on where and what they are eating.  For example, there used to be massive industrial mercury contamination in the St. Lawrence off Cornwall, but now there is very little - the sediments have sequestered it.  Eels (bottom feeders) from there contain very little mercury. Fisheries and Oceans Canada tests lobsters (marine bottom feeders), and mercury content is very location specific.

This is interesting to me, as an amateur biologist, because in my own research and in most of the research I've read, they made the distinction between nociception (reaction to noxious stimulus, unconscious as in our own reflex arc {you withdraw your hand from something hot before you've consciously felt the pain}) which would cover bacteria, and pain (reaction to noxious stimulus which is processed by the brain (and thus a conscious feeling) and has an emotional component). I probably spent too much time reading research articles, but it's interesting to me. I do admit that I skipped right on down to bivalves, specifically mussels and oysters, because they clearly do not have brains,  have only rudimentary ganglia, and lack endogenous opiates or opiate receptors to inhibit pain. This to me (and a boat load of others) shows that what they have are rudimentary reflex arcs, rather than a true ability to feel pain.

Of course, they are my only exception for a number of other reasons to, relating to their effect on the environment, content of B12 and Omega 3s, and surprisingly to me when I looked it up, have one of the lowest mercury contamination of seafood.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: CommonCents on April 23, 2014, 10:41:55 AM
I love it when people say they can't eat vegan food, because the mental image of them basically saying they can't eat any vegetables, fruits, grains, legumes, mushrooms, etc is just too ridiculous.

What's hard to understand about what they are saying?  I think it's being deliberately obtuse to interpret it as a refusal to eat vegetables, fruits, etc., but rather that they can't/won't eat solely a vegan diet and give up eating dairy, eggs etc.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on April 23, 2014, 12:18:59 PM
I have thought a fair bit about where I fall on animal ethics.  I hunt and fish, one daughter is a vegetarian, DW does not eat red meat, etc.  I am very comfy being an omnivore.  I think that is how humans evolved and it is what it is.  However, I don't hold with unnecessary or institutionalized animal suffering and I don't in general trust the food industry.  So I fish in waters I know to be clean and try to catch or buy fish that are on the sustainable end of things.  I hunt generously populated critters and try hard to ensure a clean kill and ethical hunting (I have missed out on a lot of meat because I insist on closing the distance to the point where it is real hard to miss).  I try real hard to avoid factory farmed meat, and I won't touch pork at all due to the state of that industry (feral hog would be just fine, though).  We try to eat local and we usually eat pretty far down the food chain (I am on a heirloom bean company's list for "ship me the goodies every couple of months, you choose which"), and we pay attention to what we buy in general.  I am taking delivery of a package of bees on Saturday for a backyard hive.  Honey harvesting is a secondary or tertiary reason for beekeeping, so while I will rob the bees if there is a surplus I will be very conservative about what I take (and if I take it in marginal years).  I have not decided on requeening, but if it does not harm the colony to pass on it I will probably skip it.  If my hive swarms, I will either attempt to catch the swarm and set up a second hive, or let them go and try their luck as a wild colony.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 24, 2014, 06:45:32 PM
I used to be one of those people who thought vegans and vegetarians were a bit silly/overly sensitive/whatever. I grew up on a small family farm where we raised much of our own food, including beef, lamb, chicken, eggs, and milk. I ate animal products all through college, and even went paleo for about two years.

What lead to the shift to veganism for me was working on an organic, small family run chicken farm that offered supposedly pasture-raised chickens. From their website and photos, you would have thought that this was a great example of humane and healthy farming. What I saw (and breathed) while I worked was enough to put me off chicken-  mostly from disgust, but there was some glimmer of ethics there too. This farm happened to be well known at the time, occasionally touted by local restaurants as their sustainable and humane meat source. I admit that it's an extrapolation, but I figure, if they they could charge $6/lb for whole chickens and the chickens in the grocery store are $.99/lb... well, I'm going to assume that even accounting for economies of scale, that $.99 chicken came from worse conditions.

The next step was eating vegan for 30 days, which I did primarily to challenge my prejudices against vegans and vegetarians. Whlep, we all how that turned out! My asthma, which had always been mild but nevertheless a rather annoying limitation, went away, my kitchen was so much easier to clean, and the grocery bill went down a significant amount as well. After those thirty days, I didn't want to go back to eating animals. A few more months of eating vegan passed, and I realized that while I'd always espoused the opinion that if you're going to eat meat, you should be willing to kill it yourself, the only time that I'd actually been able to kill anything was to put it out of misery. A few more months went by, and I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on April 24, 2014, 06:55:20 PM
I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

I think that it is worth the contemplation needed to decide this.  The world of all meat coming prepackaged in serving-size portions has taken something away from both us and the animals.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 24, 2014, 08:49:00 PM
I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

I think that it is worth the contemplation needed to decide this.  The world of all meat coming prepackaged in serving-size portions has taken something away from both us and the animals.

Right! Back before I went vegan, more than one person told me I should "just get my meat from the store" like a normal person, because it was less cruel. I'm not sure how they figured that equation.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on April 25, 2014, 01:20:10 AM

The next step was eating vegan for 30 days, which I did primarily to challenge my prejudices against vegans and vegetarians. Whlep, we all how that turned out! My asthma, which had always been mild but nevertheless a rather annoying limitation, went away, my kitchen was so much easier to clean, and the grocery bill went down a significant amount as well. After those thirty days, I didn't want to go back to eating animals. A few more months of eating vegan passed, and I realized that while I'd always espoused the opinion that if you're going to eat meat, you should be willing to kill it yourself, the only time that I'd actually been able to kill anything was to put it out of misery. A few more months went by, and I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

That is fabulous.:) I'm glad it gave you health benefits too. I used to get regular sinus infections which disappeared when I switched from vegetarian to vegan.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: 2527 on April 25, 2014, 06:33:30 AM
I eat only a very small amount of animal products, and I eat a lot of vegetables, nuts, berries, and beans.  Among non-vegans, I am probably in the bottom 5% in terms of animal consumption.  My problems are with chocolate, sugar, and refined carbohydrates.

If anybody has not heard of it, I recommend a glance at Dr. Joel Fuhrman's Eat to Live. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: genesismachine on April 25, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
I just wanted to say, I wasn't going to post originally. Then, I saw comments about preachy vegans. I'll just say, I work out at a gym with ~10-20 vegans, and nobody there is 'preachy.' I don't think I've ever met one. My guess is there are a lot of vegans out there you see everyday, but don't know about.

I play this game at work where I play 'who can find out I'm vegan last'. ~1/2 my  coworkers for ~2 years don't know I'm vegan. I find it hilarious.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Balance on April 25, 2014, 10:41:55 PM
My personal story is that I tried going Paleo and accidentally lost 20lbs, my acne, indigestion, chronic ear infections and dry skin.

I eat a dozen eggs a week, sausage and drink raw milk and eat plenty of butter from grass fed cows. Raw milk/butter is the only dairy I eat. I eat plenty of meat/seafood and fruits/veggies and nuts/legumes. I pretty much cut out all grains including wheat (read Wheat Belly). I stopped drinking soda and cut out most sugar treats. I lost over 20lbs and am near 40yrs old and in the best shape of my life.

I was allergic to store bought milk and it was giving me 3-4 ear infections a year. Those are gone! Meat is not the issue (unless it conflics with some personal belief) The real issue is industrialized food like wheat and dairy. The stuff is toxic. Organic is the best, and is money well spent considering healthcare from eating bad food cost a lot more.

I am in a similar boat. I went Paleo over 6 years ago due to having bad allergies, ear infections, IBS and reflux.  All of those things were gone quickly after I dropped the gluten and dairy. My diet consists mostly of local vegetables, fruits, pastured eggs, wild caught fish and grass fed beef.  I feel absolutely great. I haven't been sick even a single day agree that industrialized foods are the problem which include foods containing rancid PUFA's. Pre-paleo my diet consisted mostly of oatmeal every morning, whole wheat since starting this diet.  My wife has been a vegetarian ever since she was a little girl.  It is funny because I eat way more veggies and fruits than she does on my paleo diet. I sandwiches and pastas, and skinless chicken breasts. I tried vegetarianism for about a year which made me feel horribly.  Everyone responds differently but I believe giving up the processed crap is 90% of the battle.   

I would look into Denise Minger's blog http://rawfoodsos.com/.  She is a raw foodie who was vegan for many years.  She eats mostly raw fruits and vegetables but also now includes some raw lightly cooked fish and oysters. She had some great analysis on The China Study as well as many other nutrition related publications.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Vilgan on April 26, 2014, 04:27:51 PM
As I've tried and seen friends/family try various eating styles, I think there are a few things that I believe pretty solidly now:

Some people do NOT need meat. I did great on a vegan diet as did both of my siblings.
Some people NEED meat. My fiance gets super low energy without it no matter what we do and bounces off walls with incredible energy when she does eat meat.
The more you work out and the more energy you need, the harder it is to do it without meat. When my brother started running marathons and 70+ miles a week and had a busy work schedule he had trouble staying vegan and now eats chicken and other meat occasionally.
Eat FOOD, mostly vegetables is a good general approach for pretty much everyone imo. We've all ended up essentially Paleo and have flourished. My fiance and I both feel 23894082342 times healthier than we did back in the "eat tons of carbs and processed foods and baked goods" days. Her allergies have mostly disappeared, my energy level and hers are 2-3x what they used to be, I've lost weight and added some muscle while not thinking about exercise/calories at all.
Other details vary by person. Dairy messes me up pretty bad, while she suffers no ill effects from dairy other than milk. Bread is sorta bad for me (especially from a weight gain perspective) but totally messes her up.

I feel like the details of what works best for each individual are figured out over a life time. For many, vegan is a great solution and is certainly a lot better than the standard american diet. For others, adding some meat to the mix is essential. But as long as what you are eating is FOOD and not a food like substance, you'll be better off.

I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on April 27, 2014, 08:31:41 AM
I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!
That's the worst. Tofu and tempeh I'm down with. Chikkin, less so.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: ShortInSeattle on April 27, 2014, 11:28:34 AM
I was vegetarian (and at times vegan) for 12 years. I started eating meat about 1 year ago, for health reasons and am doing much better on a Paleo-ish diet.

Eating meat has been difficult for me emotionally. But I can't deny the health benefits in my particular case. We buy organic/local/humane as much as possible. Factory farming is a great evil.

To the OP I'd say to avoid getting drama associated with your diet, it's best to be private about your choice. When someone questions your food just smile and give a brief response that doesn't invite further discussion.

"You're a Vegetarian?"
"Yup."

"But WHY??"
"Several reasons. Mostly for my health.... (Immediate subject change)"

Most people who quiz a vegetarian aren't really looking for your point of view. Many will get defensive or twitchy. Just smile, answer briefly, and move on to something more interesting.


Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bUU on April 27, 2014, 11:30:36 AM
I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!
That's the worst. Tofu and tempeh I'm down with. Chikkin, less so.
I think it depends. Tofu and tempeh are both processed foods, which makes them no better than the worst of the various fake chicken products. However at least one brand of fake chicken product (my favorite brand, Quorn) is mycoprotein - essentially, mushroom-like stuff. That may not make it "natural" but it makes it a cut-above other fake chicken products, and again, no more a processed food than tofu or tempeh. In recipes the mycoprotein can work just like "perfect every time" chicken cutlets, and unless poorly cooked, without any of the rubbery side-effects you get from other fake chicken products.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 27, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
I think the only time vegans have ever really annoyed me is when "veggie fest" was heavily advertised in Seattle and I went and then it was a bunch of fake meat and no actual vegetables. Blech!
That's the worst. Tofu and tempeh I'm down with. Chikkin, less so.
I think it depends. Tofu and tempeh are both processed foods, which makes them no better than the worst of the various fake chicken products. However at least one brand of fake chicken product (my favorite brand, Quorn) is mycoprotein - essentially, mushroom-like stuff. That may not make it "natural" but it makes it a cut-above other fake chicken products, and again, no more a processed food than tofu or tempeh. In recipes the mycoprotein can work just like "perfect every time" chicken cutlets, and unless poorly cooked, without any of the rubbery side-effects you get from other fake chicken products.

I'm curious why you consider tempeh to be a processed food? It's just fermented soy beans, which seems just as "unprocessed" as cheese, sourdough, cheeses, keifer, wine, beer, etc, etc.

Tofu I can kinda get, but really, it's a fairly old food (been around for about 2000 years according to wikipedia). It's just soy milk that's been coagulated, again very similar to fresh cheeses such as queso fresco and ricotta.

Both of these are foods I could very easily make in my own kitchen, which is my personal cut off for processed vs unprocessed foods.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: bUU on April 27, 2014, 12:29:37 PM
Tempeh is less processed than tofu, but it isn't like broccoli, eh? Also, I cannot make honey in my kitchen yet it is not a processed food. And I don't consider how long we've been eating something to be significant.

However, the point was to draw the distinction between mycoprotein and other fake chicken products. Please don't lose sight of that.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on April 27, 2014, 12:44:27 PM
Eating meat has been difficult for me emotionally. But I can't deny the health benefits in my particular case. We buy organic/local/humane as much as possible. Factory farming is a great evil.

If you really want t know for sure how your meat was raised/killed/butchered, DIY.  Otherwise it is all just marketing.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 27, 2014, 12:50:08 PM
Tempeh is less processed than tofu, but it isn't like broccoli, eh? Also, I cannot make honey in my kitchen yet it is not a processed food. And I don't consider how long we've been eating something to be significant.

However, the point was to draw the distinction between mycoprotein and other fake chicken products. Please don't lose sight of that.

I think it's an interesting discussion and am genuinely curious, so I hope I haven't offended.

I don't eat fake meats myself. I do eat tempeh and tofu occasionally, and I recently became curious about mycoprotein, but have not tried it yet.

I was just curious because it is an interesting view point to say that tempeh is as bad as the worst of the fake meats, as opposed to mycoprotein, which in the end is just a fungus grown on a sugar syrup and then washed, instead of fungus grown on cooked soy beans.

As to honey, well, it's something that is collected from nature. To me, processed foods have to be made by humans. I think there is a spectrum between processed and natural foods, with raw foods on one end and stuff like cola and twinkles on the other. As soon as we begin cooking, blending, or fermenting, we begin to process our foods, and everyone draws their own line, often for very different and interesting reasons. I personally choose to eat foods (for the most part) that I could collect/grow/raise myself and and then processed into it's desired state in a manner that I could and would do in my kitchen.


Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: hoodedfalcon on April 27, 2014, 02:32:01 PM
I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of diet, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his diet. Many of us judge the vegan diet quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Vegans like the OP who say they could care less about animal welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a vegan diet. I believe you should be free to eat as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your diet (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

Why? You say you see it as "unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical" but I feel listing such conclusions doesn't really explain anything.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 27, 2014, 02:38:11 PM
I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of diet, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his diet. Many of us judge the vegan diet quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Vegans like the OP who say they could care less about animal welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a vegan diet. I believe you should be free to eat as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your diet (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

I'd say the feeling is mutual, but honestly, it's not. I don't have any issue with anyone else's diet, and I certainly don't judge people because of it.

Maybe it is because I used to see vegans as silly, unnatural, etc, but I've come to my current diet after doing a lot of research into health, nutrition, and longevity. I've seen both sides, though admittedly I've never been in the middle (that is, I've never been vegetarian). I do think it's interesting to observe how judgemental/defensive people are about a personal choice that is not affecting anybody else.

I understand that what works for me does not necessarily work for anybody else, and everyone makes the choices they do based on their own experiences and ethics.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on April 27, 2014, 02:47:32 PM
I could only be a vegan if bacon were a vegetable.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: dweebyhawkeyes on April 27, 2014, 05:03:51 PM
Why? You say you see it as "unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical" but I feel listing such conclusions doesn't really explain anything.

I think veganism is misaligned with our humanness. We all know that we are omnivores biologically, but veganism also undermines cultural and historical aspects of humanity. It rejects where we came from and what helps tie us together. I see the disparity as large, arrogant, and offensive.

First off, thanks for sharing your prejudice. That was brave of you!

So I personally feel some of the most awesome attributes of mankind are adaptability and tolerance. I'm not quite understanding why you feel it's okay to decide someone is "less human" because of his or her choices; I believe we are more than our biology. As for "where we came from": my favorite subject is history, my friend, and after a lifetime of leisurely study I can guarantee you it doesn't take long to find practices worth rejecting.

I dare you to actively love those who you previously thought less of, especially for such a trivial thing as diet. Try not to be offended by something that doesn't affect you. If someone has made you feel small for your choices in the past, I'm sorry. But not everyone is like that whatsoever. Open your mind, soften your heart. People (most of the time) are awesome. I promise.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Davids on April 27, 2014, 05:35:01 PM
If everyone was a vegan then this world would be overrun by cows in the streets, chickens clucking around and pigs getting sloppy everywhere. I imagine hitting a cow when you drive would cause more damage than hitting a deer.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on April 28, 2014, 01:27:04 AM
Some of these comments are surprising to me (and unintentionally hilarious) at times. I would have expected there to be more vegetarians and vegans on this forum as it is a less mainstream, often more frugal way of life that I thought would appeal to the type of people on here.


Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on April 28, 2014, 04:47:12 AM
More than what? Clearly there are tons of them.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: NinetyFour on April 28, 2014, 05:11:12 AM
I am unnatural and arrogant a vegetarian and consume very little dairy.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: RetiredAt63 on April 28, 2014, 05:56:38 AM
I am fine with adults who think about their food choices and follow them, for whatever reason.  That includes Paleo, low carb, mainstream, vegetarian and vegan, plus any other combination.

I am not happy with children being denied essential fatty acids and other fats essential for brain growth.  There has been a huge surge in behavioural problems since I was a kid, and I can't help but wonder if dropping so many animal fats from children's diets is part of the cause.  Example - skim or 1% milk for children.  I don't blame the parents, they have been told that a low-fat diet is good, but I do blame the nutritionists for this nonsense.

Where I have a problem is when people impose some "moral" view on their pets.  I have met vegetarians (not sure where they were on the vegetarian to vegan spectrum) who wanted to feed pets a vegetarian diet.  This is absurd.  Dogs are omnivores, in that they will eat the occasional fruit or vegetable (my dog loves peas, my parent's dog loved carrots) but they are basically carnivores, and definitely not grain eaters.  Cats are obligate carnivores. 

I met a young woman once at a home and garden show, who was making an Environment Canada rep very upset (he was there to talk about invasive species, not pet diets, poor man).  She was going on about how good/moral it was for her cat to eat a vegetarian diet, and he was trying to explain why this was not good for the cat, in a nice scientific, anatomy/physiology way.  I gave him a break and told her the same things in different words, and then gave up and left her to him.  She was so in love with the moral issues of vegetarianism that she could not see things from the cat's viewpoint, and she seemed to genuinely love her cat.  But she was so fixated on the "bad to eat meat" viewpoint that she would not listen.  It made me wonder why she had a carnivore as a pet.  Why not a nice cute herbivorous guinea pig?

Do I act on this? Yes, my dog is fed a grain free commercial diet - this does not have to be expensive, I use store brands (Costco and IGA).  My dog is healthy and her bowel movements are small, which shows she is digesting this diet well.

Sorry for being so long, this is a sore spot for me.

TL:DR - We need saturated fat, carnivorous pets need meat and no grains.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: grantmeaname on April 28, 2014, 06:10:13 AM
That's about how I feel about vegetarian chicken feed.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 28, 2014, 11:08:33 AM
Some of these comments are surprising to me (and unintentionally hilarious) at times. I would have expected there to be more vegetarians and vegans on this forum as it is a less mainstream, often more frugal way of life that I thought would appeal to the type of people on here.

Right! I mean the savings in getting your protein from legumes instead of meat is huge! That, and cleaning up after cooking is so much easier. Not to mention you don't have to deal with cross contamination and food born illness nearly so much.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Roland of Gilead on April 28, 2014, 02:48:00 PM
Right! I mean the savings in getting your protein from legumes instead of meat is huge! That, and cleaning up after cooking is so much easier. Not to mention you don't have to deal with cross contamination and food born illness nearly so much.

Well, it isn't always safe if you are vegetarian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Germany_E._coli_O104:H4_outbreak

I always cook meat to a high enough temperature to kill bacteria but a lot of people eat raw vegetables and some are very hard to wash correctly.

Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: dweebyhawkeyes on April 28, 2014, 10:28:46 PM
I dare you to actively love those who you previously thought less of, especially for such a trivial thing as diet. Try not to be offended by something that doesn't affect you. If someone has made you feel small for your choices in the past, I'm sorry. But not everyone is like that whatsoever. Open your mind, soften your heart. People (most of the time) are awesome. I promise.

More arrogance and, to me, prejudice. I'm not sure what you are basing these judgements off of. I don't love vegans any less than I would another person.

Oh! I was basing that judgement off this:

It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

Maybe there's a different connotation where you live, but around here "thinking little of someone" is a complete rejection of that person and their actions; it's no small statement, and particularly one you would never say about someone you love. Bummer that came across differently to me than you perhaps wanted it.

I guess you are evoking my curiosity more and more: what is it that gives you the power to call me intellectually lazy and arrogant? You are hurling insults without giving me any advice or alternatives. I simply thought I was expressing what I feel humanity to be; I was presenting my own opinion that happens to be in contrast to yours. Meat-eating, to me, isn't that special. Thousands of species do it. That's why I resent having you tell me that my choices are somehow less human than yours. I disagree entirely with your premise, but at least it's refreshing compared to the usual complaints, hence why I'm seeking to understand you. However, you are making these statements based on "evidence" you haven't produced, and claiming my statements arrogant without reason why. And then telling me you don't want to argue. Them's fightin' words!

Prejudice means assumptions you make about a person based on attributes of that person, yes? You learn someone is vegan, then seek for confirmation bias about why that person is arrogant. How am I arrogant? Inquiring minds want to know. I don't want to be arrogant; I want to be kind and loving and understanding, but you've got to help me out here. Give me your best advice. But no, I'm not going to start eating meat. :]
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on April 29, 2014, 08:09:57 AM
More than what? Clearly there are tons of them.

I just saw this.:) I haven't been on this forum that long but I haven't noticed that many vegans on here. I first saw MMM referenced on a veg forum so I would have thought that the ethos marries quite well with veganism as the people on here seem to be quite well educated and intelligent people and the vegans I have encountered fall into that category.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: NinetyFour on April 29, 2014, 08:44:29 AM
the people on here seem to be quite well educated and intelligent people and the vegans I have encountered fall into that category.

Give it some time, though.  You'll soon find out that we vegans are unnatural, arrogant, and offensive.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Peter on April 29, 2014, 09:03:58 AM
How am I arrogant?
.
.
.
Give me your best advice. But no, I'm not going to start eating meat.

...
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: alibean on April 29, 2014, 09:05:37 AM
I was going to answer the OP but it looks like this thread has made a lot of twists and turns. 

Anyway, I find it interesting that there are people that eat McDonalds every day, but mention you're vegan eating real food and people are suddenly worried about your health.   I am a moral vegan though so my response is probably different from yours.  I tell people that initially, I became a vegan for moral reasons.  I don't agree at all with factory farming and I don't want to support that.  I also think it's very strange to drink another species milk.  Since I stopped consuming dairy, my asthma, allergies and GI issues have almost completely resolved.  I usually find that people are just curious because it's a different life choice.   Most people actually then talk about how they are trying to eat less meat or only eat fish or poultry, don't eat red meat or processed food, etc.  I think people just like to talk about food. 

I'm not really (ever) interested in discussing whether it's right or wrong.  It works for our family.  Our health seems to be better for it and it's a way of eating that we all feel good about.  We're omnivores so we can survive for the most part eating just about anything.  We eat in a way that we feel helps us to thrive. 
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Adventine on April 29, 2014, 09:06:42 AM
I realized that I don't value meat enough to kill for it.

I think that it is worth the contemplation needed to decide this.  The world of all meat coming prepackaged in serving-size portions has taken something away from both us and the animals.

I recently switched to a mostly vegetarian diet (for financial/convenience reasons, not ethical ones), but I've always had an unexplained aversion to the raw packaged meat one sees in supermarkets. These ideas are striking. I need to think more about them.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Longstride on April 29, 2014, 12:33:02 PM
I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of diet, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his diet. Many of us judge the vegan diet quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Vegans like the OP who say they could care less about animal welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a vegan diet. I believe you should be free to eat as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your diet (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are vegan. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of religion, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his religion. Many of us judge the Christian religion quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Christians like the OP who say they could care less about Christ's welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a Christian religion. I believe you should be free to worship as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your religion (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are Christian. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

(I mean no offense to the Christian faith or any other - I only seek to point out how outlooks such as garth's have, you know, caused wars and stuff, no big deal)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Peter on April 29, 2014, 12:50:53 PM
I don't think I've ever offered unsolicited comments on someone's choice of religion, not being all that interested in inserting myself into other people's affairs. But it surprises me that OP seemed surprised that people felt the need to comment/question his religion. Many of us judge the Christian religion quite negatively. I see it as unnatural, arrogant, and sometimes hypocritical. Christians like the OP who say they could care less about Christ's welfare are especially deplorable, only behind those who restrict their young children to a Christian religion. I believe you should be free to worship as you please, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your religion (whatever it may be). It's harsh and sad, but the truth is that I usually think less of someone after I learn they are Christian. I don't mean to be attacking here, only explaining how I (and maybe others) feel.

(I mean no offense to the Christian faith or any other - I only seek to point out how outlooks such as garth's have, you know, caused wars and stuff, no big deal)

And your point? Both paragraphs are written with a criticism of only the actions/intent of the person in question, and show restraint not to stray off topic or to disrespect the respondent as a human being. Shouldn't we be allowed to openly criticize and admonish the actions others take that we disagree with?

Many a war has been started because someone couldn't take the healthy criticism as portrayed above and respect a difference of opinion.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: S0VERE1GN on April 29, 2014, 01:03:24 PM
Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Zikoris on April 29, 2014, 02:32:50 PM
Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Emilyngh on April 29, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.

I totally agree.   I am vegetarian myself, but follow above with regards to being vegan (eat our own chicken eggs at home, but only eat dairy when out on occasion).   

I used to be a strict vegan, but stopped because I found it too hard to follow 100% (I found milk derivatives in soy cheese....) and for some reason, there's pressure to conform to a label or not do it at all.    I've decided that if being vegan is a good thing (and I believe it to be for the health benefits of a whole plant-based diet, the environment, reducing animal suffering, etc), then doing it 90% of the time is better than just saying "fuck it, I can't be perfect."
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on April 30, 2014, 03:01:01 AM
the people on here seem to be quite well educated and intelligent people and the vegans I have encountered fall into that category.

Give it some time, though.  You'll soon find out that we vegans are unnatural, arrogant, and offensive.

Oh, of course. :)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: S0VERE1GN on April 30, 2014, 07:40:27 AM
Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.

yep. was vegan for about a year and I loved it. Work environment caused me to change to a more meat and dairy based diet. I don't know if you had a trick to stop this, but when I was Full Vegan I would eat 6-8 times a day AT LEAST.  had to constantly fuel the furnace.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: HAULIN3 on April 30, 2014, 02:16:01 PM
I'm Vegan!!

Watched "Forks over Knives" on Netflix and changed my diet the next day!  Proud to say It's been 18 months!!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: brewer12345 on April 30, 2014, 03:00:40 PM
I'm Vegan!!

Watched "Forks over Knives" on Netflix and changed my diet the next day!  Proud to say It's been 18 months!!

And today I sighted in my new to me 38 special carbine for use as a squirrel and rabbit rifle this fall.  Its a funny old world...
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: mikefixac on April 30, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
I'm Vegan!!

Watched "Forks over Knives" on Netflix and changed my diet the next day!  Proud to say It's been 18 months!!

I'm amazed at how many times I've heard this story. I would love to know how many this has happened to. I wish this movie would go mainstream.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: dweebyhawkeyes on April 30, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
I think less (not "little") of vegans because the decision to eat a vegan diet, though it may be well intentioned, can only be arrived at and sustained through intellectual negligence or arrogance (notice, NinetyFour, that I am specifically talking about veganism, not vegetarianism, in my posts). Making an arrogant or negligent decision, to me, is the best evidence that a person may be arrogant or negligent. This is why I reject the "prejudice" label (defined as making a judgement without cause). The point of my last post wasn't to insult you, although I admit I wasn't trying to avoid it (I was annoyed with your response). I wanted to point out that you demonstrated both negligence (misrepresentation of my arguments) and arrogance (condescension; historical ethnocentrism, for lack of a better term), helping to illustrate that there is some validity to my argument (i.e., veganism suggests underlying intellectual laziness or arrogance).

Eating meat is not uniquely human. Raising animals and preserving, preparing, and sharing their products, and the cultural practices that surround these, are fundamentally human. If you cannot agree with this, let's just go our separate ways. I promise that I won't start any wars while you're not looking.

Hey garth, guess what? I've been vegan for over five years because the diet change was the simplest and safest way to end my cystic acne. I'll eat the occasional chicken egg and cows' milk-laced sweet treat in social settings, but for the most part I just remember pain and pustules when I look at animal products! Sure, I watched the slaughterhouse videos; I have a butcher friend who tells me stories... so I can absolutely see where ethical vegans are coming from. My own choice has more to do with my hesitance to take Accutane than "intellectual laziness", but I still don't like that you're looking down your nose at an entire group of people. So no, I still don't agree with you, and I don't give you permission to decide for me what is fundamentally human. I maintain that you should put more effort into understanding others, as people are far too complex to judge character from a single dietary choice. Love you and have a nice evening!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: G-dog on April 30, 2014, 08:25:58 PM
The first thing people always think is.. what a weirdo why do you care about the animals so much? Honestly I'm not doing it for the animals.

You are doing it for the animals, just it's the ones you are FEEDING, vs. the ones being eaten.

I have no good retorts for you, I am still an omnivore.  But good for you!  Miss manners and others often recommend a standard response to intrusive questions, like 'why do you ask?'  Really rude questions may get a tilt of the head, a stare, and 'Really?'

You just need to try to read the intent.  Many you can probably ignore and they'll just keep jabbering away anyway.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: mikefixac on April 30, 2014, 08:26:35 PM
I'm overjoyed this topic gets discussed. Today I read a positive article about veganism in a right wing magazine. Written by Matthew Scully who wrote a marvelous book called "Dominion".


Do you happen to have a link to that article? I'm very interested.

Here it is: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376215/lessons-noah-matthew-scully
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: G-dog on April 30, 2014, 08:35:36 PM
However, I did spend hours and hours arguing with my mom about nutrition before giving up after she tried to make points about the nutrition content of Hot Pockets and Mountain Dew (yes, she really did)

I know this had to have been stressful at the time (or still), but hahahahahaha! Nothing like arguing that Mt Dew and Hot Pockets is a healthy diet!
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: clarkai on April 30, 2014, 09:05:20 PM
Cooking with 90% vegetable products at home and indulging in the odd cheeseburger when on the road or out with friends is one of the finest diets I have ever encountered or utilized. highly recommended.

I'm a vegan myself, but man, if people adopted your philosophy en masse, what a difference it would make to their health, wealth, and the environment.

yep. was vegan for about a year and I loved it. Work environment caused me to change to a more meat and dairy based diet. I don't know if you had a trick to stop this, but when I was Full Vegan I would eat 6-8 times a day AT LEAST.  had to constantly fuel the furnace.

I found loading up on the good fats + protein + fiber helped a lot with long term satiation. I make a simple avocado & tofu curry, which fills me up for a good long while. Also, when I make smoothies, I add coconut milk in, which is great. Bowl of brown rice + kale + lentils + lemon tahini sauce is another good one. 

I think it's pretty common to eat a low fat diet while vegan, but I eat what would probably be seen as a lot of good fats (olive oil, nuts, seeds, avocados, etc).
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Squirrel away on May 01, 2014, 12:39:01 AM
Hmm, I would never think to put avocado in a curry. I might try that. :)
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Adventine on May 02, 2014, 01:38:54 AM
I think less (not "little") of vegans because the decision to eat a vegan diet, though it may be well intentioned, can only be arrived at and sustained through intellectual negligence or arrogance (notice, NinetyFour, that I am specifically talking about veganism, not vegetarianism, in my posts). Making an arrogant or negligent decision, to me, is the best evidence that a person may be arrogant or negligent. This is why I reject the "prejudice" label (defined as making a judgement without cause). The point of my last post wasn't to insult you, although I admit I wasn't trying to avoid it (I was annoyed with your response). I wanted to point out that you demonstrated both negligence (misrepresentation of my arguments) and arrogance (condescension; historical ethnocentrism, for lack of a better term), helping to illustrate that there is some validity to my argument (i.e., veganism suggests underlying intellectual laziness or arrogance).

Eating meat is not uniquely human. Raising animals and preserving, preparing, and sharing their products, and the cultural practices that surround these, are fundamentally human. If you cannot agree with this, let's just go our separate ways. I promise that I won't start any wars while you're not looking.

Hey garth, guess what? I've been vegan for over five years because the diet change was the simplest and safest way to end my cystic acne. I'll eat the occasional chicken egg and cows' milk-laced sweet treat in social settings, but for the most part I just remember pain and pustules when I look at animal products! Sure, I watched the slaughterhouse videos; I have a butcher friend who tells me stories... so I can absolutely see where ethical vegans are coming from. My own choice has more to do with my hesitance to take Accutane than "intellectual laziness", but I still don't like that you're looking down your nose at an entire group of people. So no, I still don't agree with you, and I don't give you permission to decide for me what is fundamentally human. I maintain that you should put more effort into understanding others, as people are far too complex to judge character from a single dietary choice. Love you and have a nice evening!

A civilized response to a condescending post. Makes me smile.
Title: Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
Post by: Cpa Cat on May 17, 2014, 06:44:42 PM
I think veganism is misaligned with our humanness. We all know that we are omnivores biologically, but veganism also undermines cultural and historical aspects of humanity. It rejects where we came from and what helps tie us together. I see the disparity as large, arrogant, and offensive.
So I personally feel some of the most awesome attributes of mankind are adaptability and tolerance. I'm not quite understanding why you feel it's okay to decide someone is "less human" because of his or her choices; I believe we are more than our biology.

I want to second Dweeby here. Humans eat anything. It's part of why we've managed to spread ourselves to all corners of the globe and beyond. If you stuck humans on an island with no animals and no trade, those people would become vegans. They would still be tied together as a people. They would still have food-traditions. Despite never knowing what meat tasted like, they would still be human and they would have a history and a culture that is as rich as any other civilization that has ever existed.

In our current land of plenty, we humans have a lot of choices about what we eat. Choosing is just another part of our culture and humanity.