Author Topic: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!  (Read 64875 times)

unitsinc

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2013, 04:32:54 PM »
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Funny, I don't seem to be getting high after a meal of whole wheat whatever.  Perhaps if I smoked it in a bong...

I know it's not concrete proof, but it's something:

http://www.med.wisc.edu/news-events/wisconsin-study-links-carbohydrate-overeating-and-reaction-to-opiates/30723
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_addiction
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:43:29 PM by unitsinc »

unitsinc

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2013, 04:35:12 PM »
Actually, Mrs. Obama's plate (which replaced the pyramid) suggests just one-fourth of the diet being grains. I can't imagine a healthy variety of grains (barley, oats, brown rice, quinoa, millet, buckwheat, etc., in addition to whole wheat) being bad for your health.


Healthy grains ARE good for you, though most Americans don't eat much barley, quinoa, millet or buckwheat.  However, no matter how healthy the grain, it has to be kept in balance.  Diabetes is positively an epidemic in America today, and it's only growing worse.  The  main thing a Diabetic must watch out for is his carbohydrate intake, and these healthy grains are all super high in carbs.

Then why are you calling them healthy?

You don't understand what modern wheat is comprised of. It is not healthy at all. It contains Gliadin, a protein that bonds to our opiate receptors. Industry has created an addictive product that's completely unhealthy. No matter how much propaganda the industry puts out about "whole grains", it's crap. Look at the science of wheat and the results of a wheat based diet.

Are the five others grains MrsPete listed that aren't wheat equally as "bad for you"? (sarcasm-quotes because I believe the human body is too complex for anyone to claim a specific food is ZOMG-bad-for-you, especially when people have eaten it without trouble for quite a while now)

I agree with you that not many edibles are "zomg-bad-for-you" but certainly some things are better than others. And even if something is able to sustain you, that doesn't make it optimal.

Roses

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2013, 06:35:16 PM »
On the farting issue, I was really having some trouble with that. What put an end to it for me was soaking the legumes over night with a bit of kombu, and cooking with cumin. Cut the farts right out.

I personally eat a low-glycemic index diet, based around legumes, not grains, with small additions of clams and fish once in a while.

In our culture we've forgotten how to properly prepare legumes and grains.  Both categories are supposed to be soaked before consumption (even lentils which most people think don't need soaking).  And many of these benefit from being soaked with something like whey, or lemon juice / vinegar for a vegan option.  This not only makes them more digestible, but breaks down the antinutrients (like phytic acid) that are naturally present in many legumes and grains, thus making them healthier.  For more details check out Sally Fallon's book Nourishing Traditions (not vegan) or the Weston Price foundation: http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/be-kind-to-your-grains
I do like legumes and grains and take care to prepare them in this traditional manner whenever I can - my beans, lentils, brown rice, oats, etc.  Even some nuts.  But I still think it's best not to overdo it with grains, especially refined ones.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 06:36:50 PM by Roses »

bonjourliz

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2013, 08:51:58 PM »
My husband follows a very low-fat, mostly vegan diet b/c of health issues (2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29).  The Ornish diet plus fish, basically.  He is healthier than ever, and his cardiologist is thrilled with his current test results. 

He does get lots of questions, mostly from acquaintances who are genuinely curious as to why or how he eats this way.  He's also served as a resource for friends who want to adopt healthier diets for themselves.  Whatever hassle it is, it's been 100% worth it to him.

He had 2 heart attacks and a triple bypass by age 29 and people question why he eats that way?!

LOL. People are pretty accepting, esp after they hear the story. Except about chicken - "you can't even have a grilled chicken breast?  Really?"

tuyop

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2013, 11:16:17 PM »
re: bean farts. I think there's something in particular wrong with me. I tried very hard to make the bean thing work, and I was the only one out of three of us who had gas that badly (or at all, most of the time). Sometimes I even react badly to peanuts and string beans or fresh peas mess me right up, so I think it's a legume thing.

dweebyhawkeyes

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2013, 12:10:02 AM »
Oh my goodness when I stopped eating animal products I got yelled at and beat up and was told about relatives of relatives who lost all their hair etc hahaha. I really don't get it, because I am still the same person, only healthier and softer-hearted.

The militant meat-eater attitude does get really tiring. Back in high school, when my friends found out (after a year of me not telling them because I'm not a freak who brings it up every conversation) they had noticed I had brought a tofu scramble for lunch. After several long minutes of interrogation I finally admit that I'm vegan and all hell breaks loose. They tell me how much they hate the vegan "holier-than-thou" attitude and blah blah blah. Seriously, this situation has repeated itself with so many people. I literally cannot let people know I don't eat animal products within a month of us meeting or they'll declare me a bitch and not want to talk to me. It's ridiculous.

In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

bUU

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2013, 04:51:00 AM »
I know some folks who regularly volunteer to help the poor, Habitat for Humanity projects, serving at soup kitchens, etc. They're doing something good for someone else, but don't do anything to project that they are "holier than thou". Yet I suspect that some folks will perceive them as such. I think such perceptions say more about the person doing the perceiving than about the person they're perceiving.

Samsam

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2013, 09:57:18 AM »
In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

Sorry all that happened to you, bullying of any kind is unacceptable.  But to answer has anyone known an asshole who happened to be vegan...YES. 

When I moved out to LA from the midwest everyone just assumed the only thing I ate was steak and potatoes...Whenever I ate a vegetable or a salad everyone would be like OMG but its not meat!  I met a lot of militant vegan / vegetarian types that would want to get in an ethical battle everytime I ate a piece of bacon. 

That being said, I am not one of those meat eaters that rags on non meat eaters.  Even dated a vegetarian and it taught me to make a lot healthier side dishes.  I think this subject is just like anything else, there are people that don't care what others do and others that always want to be up in your business, whether you are eating bacon or tofu. 

Kriegsspiel

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2013, 01:33:57 PM »

In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

Visit your local PETA coven :)

brewer12345

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2013, 02:11:33 PM »
In all honesty, has someone actually known an asshole who happened to be vegan? I'd like to spit on her shoe and tell her not to be such a creep. She's giving us all a bad reputation.

Sorry all that happened to you, bullying of any kind is unacceptable.  But to answer has anyone known an asshole who happened to be vegan...YES. 

When I moved out to LA from the midwest everyone just assumed the only thing I ate was steak and potatoes...Whenever I ate a vegetable or a salad everyone would be like OMG but its not meat!  I met a lot of militant vegan / vegetarian types that would want to get in an ethical battle everytime I ate a piece of bacon. 

That being said, I am not one of those meat eaters that rags on non meat eaters.  Even dated a vegetarian and it taught me to make a lot healthier side dishes.  I think this subject is just like anything else, there are people that don't care what others do and others that always want to be up in your business, whether you are eating bacon or tofu.

Haven't you heard the old joke?  Vegan is Latin for pain in the ass.

cats

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2013, 09:04:24 PM »
I went vegetarian in high school and at the time my mother was worried about protein, iron, etc.  I read a bunch of vegetarian/vegan nutrition books and it was SUPER helpful.  It is totally possible to get enough protein, iron, calcium on a vegetarian or even vegan diet.  However, in my experience, it is not *quite* as easy as much of the veg literature would have you believe.  I got careless about things when I was in university (crazy schedule, no kitchen, too much reliance on cafeteria food) and have had to do some work since then to get my iron levels back up.  I've also recently realized that, oh, hey, I'm slacking on the protein front again, so I've been paying more attention to that again.  I stopped eating soy a couple of years ago b/c it was causing me to have very heavy periods, and when you cut that out protein does get to be harder.

For vegan sources of protein that are a little more "concentrated" than legumes (i.e., not so starchy), I like hemp protein powder and also nutritional yeast.  If I am eating properly (i.e., not eating ice cream in lieu of a meal...), getting 50-60 g of protein/day is totally doable, and getting into the 60-70 range is also pretty manageable.

Honestly, for the person asking about 200g of protein/day, how many calories overall are you talking about someone taking in?  Obviously getting that many grams on a "standard" diet of 2000-2500 calories/day is going to be hard, but if you are an elite athlete you are probably working out enough to need a LOT more calories, so 200g is not that hard.  I mean, I get 50-60g on about 2000 calories/day, so if I were suddenly Michael Phelps and eating 10k calories/day, my protein intake would automatically go up to 250g if I just scaled everything up.

tuyop

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2013, 10:09:36 PM »
Honestly, for the person asking about 200g of protein/day, how many calories overall are you talking about someone taking in?  Obviously getting that many grams on a "standard" diet of 2000-2500 calories/day is going to be hard, but if you are an elite athlete you are probably working out enough to need a LOT more calories, so 200g is not that hard.  I mean, I get 50-60g on about 2000 calories/day, so if I were suddenly Michael Phelps and eating 10k calories/day, my protein intake would automatically go up to 250g if I just scaled everything up.

I eat 2200 calories on my off or easy days (2/week or so) and about 2600 on my hard days. Regardless I get at least 180g of protein. I'm a 175lb 6' male. Not an elite athlete, just a guy who likes being active and cares about performance. I've gotten pretty sweet results at the same caloric intake and >220g of protein but it's obviously not sustainable and those are like hamburger+tuna+5 egg days.

cats

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2013, 11:44:26 PM »
Honestly, for the person asking about 200g of protein/day, how many calories overall are you talking about someone taking in?  Obviously getting that many grams on a "standard" diet of 2000-2500 calories/day is going to be hard, but if you are an elite athlete you are probably working out enough to need a LOT more calories, so 200g is not that hard.  I mean, I get 50-60g on about 2000 calories/day, so if I were suddenly Michael Phelps and eating 10k calories/day, my protein intake would automatically go up to 250g if I just scaled everything up.

I eat 2200 calories on my off or easy days (2/week or so) and about 2600 on my hard days. Regardless I get at least 180g of protein. I'm a 175lb 6' male. Not an elite athlete, just a guy who likes being active and cares about performance. I've gotten pretty sweet results at the same caloric intake and >220g of protein but it's obviously not sustainable and those are like hamburger+tuna+5 egg days.

If it's working for you, great, but 180g sounds like a lot to me.  That's over 30% of your calories from protein--I suspect most omnivores aren't even getting that much and would find that it takes some careful attention to diet to do so.  Most recommendations I have seen are in the 0.8-1 g protein per kg bodyweight range.  I don't want to be rude but if someone is really finding that they need to eat a diet that high in protein to get the performance they need/want, I do wonder what they have been eating in lieu of high protein foods when they aren't getting an acceptable level of performance.  If one tends to replace high protein foods with things like bread, that's quite a bit different than replacing it with, say, a bowl full of kale sauteed in coconut oil.

tuyop

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2013, 09:56:41 AM »
If it's working for you, great, but 180g sounds like a lot to me.  That's over 30% of your calories from protein--I suspect most omnivores aren't even getting that much and would find that it takes some careful attention to diet to do so.  Most recommendations I have seen are in the 0.8-1 g protein per kg bodyweight range.  I don't want to be rude but if someone is really finding that they need to eat a diet that high in protein to get the performance they need/want, I do wonder what they have been eating in lieu of high protein foods when they aren't getting an acceptable level of performance.  If one tends to replace high protein foods with things like bread, that's quite a bit different than replacing it with, say, a bowl full of kale sauteed in coconut oil.

I was experiencing a lot of injury and stalls when eating <80g of protein per day on a paleo diet. So my meals would be things like big-ass salads, chicken with sweet potato, a white fish stirfry on quinoa, a bit of fruit, lots of almonds and various seeds, three or four meals of meat and half a dozen eggs a week. Same caloric intake, never any dairy, grains or legumes. The quality of foods was not the problem. Veggie content is equal now, I eat peanuts, but I just get a lot more dairy and significantly more meat.

If it matters, I'm just following in the footsteps of fantastic strength athletes for the past like 2000 years:

Quote
"Milon of Croton used to eat 20 pounds of meat and as many of bread, and he drank three pitchers of wine. And at Olympia he put a four-year-old bull on his shoulders and carried it around the stadium; after which, he cut it up and ate it all alone in a single day."

:D

grantmeaname

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #114 on: August 12, 2013, 09:35:36 AM »
Threads like this make me like Michael Pollan more and more. It's not about opioid receptors, gliodin, or omega threes. It's about food!

Eat food, not too much, mostly plants FTW.

Regarding vegan-questioning: no matter what spirit it's meant in, you'll certainly come out of the conversation happier if you choose to interpret it in the spirit of polite small-talk and well-intentioned curiosity rather than crucifixion. So do.

Lastly, for anyone reading this thread and falling into analysis paralysis: there are several steps you can take that nobody in this thread would disagree with. If you're going to eat meat, lean meats are at least as good as fatty ones. If you're going to eat grains, eating whole grains is better, and eating many different whole grains (barley, oats, quinoa, brown rice...) is better still. When you eat vegetables, it's better to eat a greater variety of them, and to eat the darker green ones over the lighter ones (brussels sprouts>iceberg). When you cook with fats, olive oil and butter are preferable to yellow food coloring and hydrogenated soybean oil. Tackle all of those changes first and you'll be pretty well off, even if talking heads on the innertubes disagree about the ratio of your food groups.

grantmeaname

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2014, 01:37:33 PM »
Not to necro a dead thread, but I finally got around to watching Forks over Knives today while shining my shoes. I'm about halfway done and I'm really enjoying it so far.

grantmeaname

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2014, 02:54:13 PM »
I spoke too soon, I think. The first part is nice but the end is very much "one cancer patient ate plants and then her cancer disappeared" and "correlation=causation" and "this trend is clear among the eight countries we cherry-picked for our bar graph".

ketchup

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2014, 03:21:33 PM »
I spoke too soon, I think. The first part is nice but the end is very much "one cancer patient ate plants and then her cancer disappeared" and "correlation=causation" and "this trend is clear among the eight countries we cherry-picked for our bar graph".
Yeah, I found it disappointing as well.  We didn't realize it was so pro-vegan before we watched it on Netflix.  And I'll admit I started laughing when I realized it was leading up to a big "revelation" about The China Study, which is as flawed as Ancel Keys' Seven Countries Study.  The most interesting part about it to me though from that standpoint was that none of the people that "went vegan" ever talked about the meat they used to eat before.  Most of it was "I used to eat candy bars all the time".  It wasn't the lack of meat that made those people healthier; it was the lack of junk food.  The documentary kept grouping animal-based food and processed food together healthwise, which really doesn't make any sense.  Roast beef is not pop tarts.  Scrambled eggs are not Oreos.  Broiled wild Alaskan salmon with lemon-garlic-butter sauce is not donuts.

catccc

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2014, 05:12:42 PM »
I get this after being vegetarian for 18 years.  I just say it works for me.  They really can't say anything to that.  "It isn't the best choice for everyone, but it works for me."

ToughMother

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2014, 05:25:29 PM »
re: bean farts. I think there's something in particular wrong with me. I tried very hard to make the bean thing work, and I was the only one out of three of us who had gas that badly (or at all, most of the time). Sometimes I even react badly to peanuts and string beans or fresh peas mess me right up, so I think it's a legume thing.

Sounds more like an allergy w GI symptoms than mere dietary adjustment as others have suggested.  I can't eat peanuts, soy beans, and peas without a massive allergic reaction (epi-pen level) and have gotten so scared off, that I've given up on legumes completely (not really fun to try out new beans with that sort of reaction). 

All this limits the hell out of what you can eat and I therefore do need to get my protein from non-legume/non-dairy (yea, more bloody allergies) sources.  I don't eat much meat at all, but just enough now, after being vegetarian for years.  My doc, also a vegetarian, suggested it after my measurable blood protein levels were too low.  I feel much better now and since it doesn't take much meat to get sufficient protein, I spend the money to make sure it is clean, organic meat (95% poultry).

Anyway, there are indeed situations where you can't get by without meat, but I know that isn't the norm.

Silverwood

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #120 on: April 05, 2014, 05:53:16 PM »
My parents freaked out when my brother and I talked about not eating meat. Now my dad is on a diet/ life style change and has actually been losing weight. He eats almost no meat, just a little fish. It took his Dr to get him to do it but the change is significant.  Both physically and mentally.  They were actually interested when they found out I was juicing.

I have to eat in the cafeteria at work and there is usually around 200 people there.  I totally get how annoying it can be to explain what/ why your eating. I think most people are curious.  I also had no idea what I'd be eating when I first took out gluten/dairy/ etc. 

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #121 on: April 05, 2014, 07:57:46 PM »
Re: Loud Vegans.

There an awful lot of "loud" meat eaters out there. My office caters meals fairly frequently, so I asked the organizer if she could include a vegetarian option for me. I guess she sent out some kind of memo because everyone in the office instantly knew I was a vegetarian and came to tell me about how much they love meat.

I have seriously never initiated the "vegetarian conversation" with anyone, but have somehow had it with almost everyone. It usually entails people asking what kind of meat I miss the most. It always ends with a final statement professing love of meat.

For every vegan friend I have on Facebook who posts memes deploring the treatment of animals, I have two carnivorous friends who post photos of meat. A good portion of them seem to fetishize bacon.

Back when I ate meat and liked bacon, I had one friend post an entire photo shoot of herself wearing a self-crafted bra made out of raw bacon. Is that really better than a vegan telling me that eating dairy is wrong? The answer is no. The bacon bra put me off bacon. I still eat dairy.

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2014, 08:26:04 PM »
We eat very little meat but cheese is my home boy.

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #123 on: April 05, 2014, 09:16:42 PM »
As a biologist, I am going a bit crazy over the misuse of terms in this thread. To clarify: a herbivore eats plants (well actually, most herbivores mostly eat bacteria, but that is another topic).  An omnivore eats plants and meat. A carnivore eats meat.  Meat includes all animals, so yes if you eat fish, frogs, snakes, birds or mammals, or lobster, shrimp, scallops, and insects, you are eating meat.  You cannot be a vegetarian and eat any of those.  Really, technically, you can't eat eggs either, and you are pushing it with dairy.

Re humans - we are omnivores - look at our teeth and gut.  This means we have flexibility, just like raccoons (two very adaptable and successful species).  So we can eat a range from all plants to all animals, depending on what is available and what we like or are used to eating.  Most of us are somewhere in the middle. 

We need cholesterol, it is a major component of all our cell membranes, very important for brain function (especially growing brains) and is the precursor for many hormones (especially testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone).  It is very hard for our liver to make all we need.  We also need essential fatty acids, the fact that they are called essential indicates we can't make them, we have to eat them, just like vitamins.

When we choose to shift to more plant consumption, we have to plan our diet based on the fact that we are still in a predator/prey relationship - in fact my favourite Ecology textbook has two chapters on predator/prey relationships, the first chapter is plants and animals, the second is animals and animals.  We have to remember that plants that are tasty and harmless do not do well, evolutionarily speaking, they get eaten.  So they have lots of defenses.  I can't say plants invented chemical warfare, because bacteria did, but they are very good at it.  And what is a plant going to invest the most defense in? Its seeds, so there will be a next generation.  This is why we have all sorts of traditional cooking methods that deal with toxins in grains and legumes.  And of course modern domesticated plants have had most of their defenses bred out.

General reading - first, the China Study, as already mentioned, is garbage - he cherry picked his data.  Read Denise Minger's blog or new book on that.  Fat Head is worth watching, and the web site gives lots of other good nutrition blogs. Wheat Belly is worth reading.

And really required reading is The Vegetarian Myth.  Its author is Lierre Keith, and she has taken a lot of abuse.  She comes at the vegetarian/vegan diet from pretty well all approaches.

OK, off my soapbox.  Sorry this was so long.  Can you tell that I used to teach Biology?

Where am I in all this?  I am low-carb - I was pre-pre diabetic, and now I am fine, plus a lot of other health issues are gone.  I am particularly careful with grains (don't eat them at all), because I react very badly to them. Same with mature legumes, I am okay with green beans and snap peas.  I eat lots of fat and a moderate amount of various meats, and some dairy (not milk).  I eat lots of plants - lots of vegetables and a moderate amount of fruit.  All those lovely plant anti-oxidants are fat-soluble - so I make sure I have fat in the same meal so I get their benefit.

clarkai

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #124 on: April 05, 2014, 09:27:34 PM »


We need cholesterol, it is a major component of all our cell membranes, very important for brain function (especially growing brains) and is the precursor for many hormones (especially testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone).  It is very hard for our liver to make all we need.  We also need essential fatty acids, the fact that they are called essential indicates we can't make them, we have to eat them, just like vitamins.


Curious about the cholesterol thing; I've never ran across anything saying the cholesterol was not made in sufficient quantities within our bodies. Do you have references for this?

I myself came to a vegan diet as an experiment after being on a paleo-ish diet for 2 years. It's made me feel great, but I'm probably unusual for a vegan in that I still don't eat processed grains and sugars, sprout all of my legumes, and eat a pretty fat rich diet. I'm still young, but physically I feel the best at any point in my life thus far.

NinetyFour

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #125 on: April 05, 2014, 09:29:56 PM »
Clarkai, would you mind giving some more info about how you sprout all of your legumes?

And what are your source of fat?

I have been vegetarian for many years, and eat very little dairy.

Thanks!

clarkai

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #126 on: April 05, 2014, 09:52:17 PM »
Clarkai, would you mind giving some more info about how you sprout all of your legumes?

And what are your source of fat?

I have been vegetarian for many years, and eat very little dairy.

Thanks!

Heh, well I cook a lot and am a bit of a health nut, so this might seem like more work for other people. But, I start by soaking the legume for at least 24 hours, and then I have a handy-dandy steamer that when not plugged in serves as a great sprouting chamber. Basically, after they've soaked for a day, I rinse them, and then put them in a container where they won't be sitting in water but will be in a moist environment. When they've obviously sprouted (I usually wait until the root is about half as long as the legume (more often I forget and it's as long- once they get going they're fast!)), I cook them in just enough water to cover (they've absorbed a lot already, so they don't tend to absorb any more) and let them sit a bit once done, or steam them (I've only steamed lentils so far). It takes a lot less time to cook sprouted legumes; my de puy lentils which used to cook for 25 minutes are now done in under 15. You can also freeze 'em after cooking which allows batch cooking.

Meat eaters will say that that sounds like a lot of work, but I find it less work than cleaning off the cutting board after preparing meat. Oh, and soaking makes my farts less frequent and less odoriferous.

As to fats, well, I eat a lot of olive oil, coconut oil and milk, flax seeds, and avocados. I also eat almonds, sunflower seeds and pumpkin seeds and so forth, but less often as they seem more expensive and I like them less. I'm not afraid of coconut oil like some because the studies I read indicated it was either neutral or slightly beneficial in some cases. 


apoclater

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #127 on: April 05, 2014, 10:01:35 PM »
I didn't read through this thread, but my guess is there is some discussion (heated or not) about the China Study, Mark Sisson, and some food documentaries on Netflix.  My experience in discussing nutrition with people is it's just as dogmatic as religion.  There's always another new source or study that someone claims is biased, and people will dig up sources that support whatever they want to believe.

I do miss my grocery bill when I was vegan, but I don't miss anything else about it.  I got sick, I had eczema and acne, and I had absolutely no energy.  I switched to paleo/primal last year, and I'll never go back.  Not only is my acne gone and I'm on a 1.5ish year long streak of not getting sick, but I feel awesome and I'm happy.  It works for me and I'm sticking to it.  That being said, I think it's just as likely someone has the exact opposite experience, and hopefully they stick to their diet plan if they like it.

The one thing I'll say is that while you get asked why you don't eat meat, people ask me how I eat this much meat.  I can't tell you how many people have said "You eat beef daily?  You know you're going to get a heart attack, right?"  You can't win telling people about your diet.  I just keep my mouth shut, and let my appearance and health speak for me.  It's not worth the attention and arguments that come of it.

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #128 on: April 06, 2014, 04:33:53 AM »
I have been veg for 21 years and vegan for 8 of those years, I have felt fine without meat, fish, eggs and dairy.

RetiredAt63

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #129 on: April 06, 2014, 06:41:23 AM »
We are all unique, so we will all find we do best on different diets.  A lot of the vegetarians/vegans posting here are eating consciously (i.e. appropriate food prep) so they are also eating better than the SAD.  If I were still eating wheat, I would be trying to find pre-Green Revolution strains for my cooking.

Global warming - people who eat a lot of legumes without the appropriate prep are adding a lot of methane to the atmosphere - a major greenhouse gas - not to mention socially unfortunate.  Basically  this is because they do not digest some soluble carbohydrates, but their gut bacteria do in anaerobic fermentation and methane is one by-product.

Cholesterol synthesis - I will try to find the reference, and again it is individual, some will be fine, others not.  How healthy is the liver?  How much is that person's body using?  And not only are there species differences (i.e. cats need more taurine than dogs do, which is why dogs love commercial cat food and cats should not eat commercial dog food, not that they would demean themselves to do that) but there are differences within a species (arctic breeds of dogs need more zinc, I have no idea why, but they do).  So general guidelines don't always work well for people either.

And our genetic background matters - mine is western European (British Isles) so I have no problems with dairy, I can digest lactose.  But many genetic backgrounds make lactose indigestible, no lactase in adulthood, so what I can eat is not what they can eat.

Nutrition research has all the obvious problems doing good double blind studies, people make poor experimental animals for long-term studies.  And we are not rodents, the domestic animal whose digestive system is most like ours is the pig.  But physiology studies can be very helpful.  And look at other species - when you look at herbivores with high-cellulose diets, you find fore or hind gut fermenters, they have bacteria and protozoans doing their digestion for them.  Animals without that are much pickier about their food, they eat tender nutritious leaves, fruit, other digestible plant parts, and tend to have long intestines. 

Cpa Cat

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #130 on: April 06, 2014, 10:43:32 AM »
As a biologist, I am going a bit crazy over the misuse of terms in this thread. To clarify: a herbivore eats plants (well actually, most herbivores mostly eat bacteria, but that is another topic).  An omnivore eats plants and meat. A carnivore eats meat.  Meat includes all animals, so yes if you eat fish, frogs, snakes, birds or mammals, or lobster, shrimp, scallops, and insects, you are eating meat.  You cannot be a vegetarian and eat any of those.  Really, technically, you can't eat eggs either, and you are pushing it with dairy.

Sure. I could "clarify" and say I'm a Lacto-Ovo Pescatarian. But if I ever do that in common conversation, I deserve to be slapped in the face with a slab of bacon.

RetiredAt63

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #131 on: April 06, 2014, 02:28:59 PM »
Ooh, bacon - that would be worth the slap in the face.  But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 
And yes, I do understand that generally speaking, vegetarians will eat dairy and sometimes eggs (future meat, if they are fertile, which most are not).  And vegans eat only plant materials.  But fish?  Animals have to live on land to count as meat? 

As a biologist, I am going a bit crazy over the misuse of terms in this thread. To clarify: a herbivore eats plants (well actually, most herbivores mostly eat bacteria, but that is another topic).  An omnivore eats plants and meat. A carnivore eats meat.  Meat includes all animals, so yes if you eat fish, frogs, snakes, birds or mammals, or lobster, shrimp, scallops, and insects, you are eating meat.  You cannot be a vegetarian and eat any of those.  Really, technically, you can't eat eggs either, and you are pushing it with dairy.

Sure. I could "clarify" and say I'm a Lacto-Ovo Pescatarian. But if I ever do that in common conversation, I deserve to be slapped in the face with a slab of bacon.

bacchi

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #132 on: April 06, 2014, 03:35:23 PM »
Weston Price studied this years ago on why our ancestors were so much healthier and had virtually no heart disease and cancer. It's only from the invention of margarine and industrialized food industry did heart disease and poor health become an epidemic.

That's old data. Ancient man had heart disease and cancer as well.

'"Atherosclerosis is ubiquitous among modern day humans and, despite differences in ancient and modern lifestyles, we found that it was rather common in ancient Egyptians of high socioeconomic status living as much as three millennia ago," says UC Irvine clinical professor of cardiology Dr. Gregory Thomas, a co-principal investigator on the study. "The findings suggest that we may have to look beyond modern risk factors to fully understand the disease."'


Edit:
Here's the Lancet article on heart disease in mummies: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2960598-X/abstract

Note that some Aleutians (Alaskan natives) were in the study. Aleutians, of course, eat mostly meat and some berries. No grains are in their diet. Other ancient diets around the world also produced heart disease.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 04:07:58 PM by bacchi »

bacchi

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #133 on: April 06, 2014, 03:55:45 PM »
  Read Denise Minger's blog or new book on that. 

Yeah, yeah, then read the criticism of Denise Minger's blog criticizing The China Study. As it turns out, she (Minger) cherry-picked her data and has correlation/causation problems.

As someone (spork?) above noted, nutritional (and diet/exercise) studies are almost inherently flawable. The African study idea might work or maybe a soylent experiment would work.


Cpa Cat

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #134 on: April 06, 2014, 05:15:20 PM »
But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 

Well, unfertilized eggs aren't living and they aren't flesh, so I don't know why they qualify as meat. I certainly wouldn't disclaim anyone's vegetarian "creds" over eggs.

As for fish - indeed, that makes me a Pescatarian. But why on Earth would I invite further inquiry AND make myself sound pretentious about  my dietary habits, when for most people and in most contexts, the word Vegetarian is simple, understandable and covers it?

I can never understand why people quibble over the label. Are you so concerned about my dietary habits that the word matters? It offends your linguistic sensibilities?

It's my line to draw. Why do you care where I draw it and what I call it?

RetiredAt63

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #135 on: April 06, 2014, 05:41:23 PM »
An unfertilized egg is alive, it is one big cell, just never going to be a chicken. 

I don't care what you eat, and if you are happy with your health, great.  What I suppose I am having trouble with generally, not you specifically, is that people say they don't eat meat when they do - they eat fish.  So technically they are piscivores, just like animals who eat insects are insectivores, but except in class I don't bother with the technical terms (and there are lots once you get into Ecology as a discipline).  But really they are omnivores, they are eating plants and animals. 

And thinking globally, not you specifically, since you are a piscivore maybe you can explain some of the thinking behind this - do you not count fish as meat? And if not, why not?  So I guess I do have a problem with the terminology, it seems to make fish the equivalent of plants instead of the amazing animals they are.  And if they are discounted then people potentially are not going to have the same concerns over their welfare.   And if you do think of fish as meat, then why do you self-identify as a vegetarian?  Why don't you just say to people that the only meat you eat, when you do feel like eating meat, is fish?  That avoids all sorts of further social issues - you just said what you like to eat in simple English, and just don't happen to be eating it at the moment.  I know what I am, I'm an omnivore.  There is lots of leeway in that term.

And socially, I know from personal experience that any eating outside the North American norm gets inquiries, and since most people have no problem eating grains, those of us who don't tend to get "pushers" - "have a little bit of this dessert, its a treat, it won't hurt you" when it will hurt me, in a way that is not fun to discuss with acquaintances.  My point here is that we all have to sometimes dance around with verbal explanations of what we are or are not eating.  These days it's a lot easier to say "I basically eat vegetarian, except for a bit of fish now and then" than it is to say "I don't eat any grains".

Sorry, this is getting long, let's let other people get a word in edgewise  ;-)

But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 

Well, unfertilized eggs aren't living and they aren't flesh, so I don't know why they qualify as meat. I certainly wouldn't disclaim anyone's vegetarian "creds" over eggs.

As for fish - indeed, that makes me a Pescatarian. But why on Earth would I invite further inquiry AND make myself sound pretentious about  my dietary habits, when for most people and in most contexts, the word Vegetarian is simple, understandable and covers it?

I can never understand why people quibble over the label. Are you so concerned about my dietary habits that the word matters? It offends your linguistic sensibilities?

It's my line to draw. Why do you care where I draw it and what I call it?

clarkai

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #136 on: April 06, 2014, 05:44:14 PM »
But seriously, I have never understood why people think they are vegetarians when they eat fish and eggs.  Those are meat.  So they are not vegetarians. 

Well, unfertilized eggs aren't living and they aren't flesh, so I don't know why they qualify as meat. I certainly wouldn't disclaim anyone's vegetarian "creds" over eggs.

As for fish - indeed, that makes me a Pescatarian. But why on Earth would I invite further inquiry AND make myself sound pretentious about  my dietary habits, when for most people and in most contexts, the word Vegetarian is simple, understandable and covers it?

I can never understand why people quibble over the label. Are you so concerned about my dietary habits that the word matters? It offends your linguistic sensibilities?

It's my line to draw. Why do you care where I draw it and what I call it?

It's interesting, because usually I hear this argument from the other side. I.e., ovo-lactos complaining about pescatarian because then people assume that all vegetarians eat fish- which is a very common assumption where I live. Personally, I get it. I'm mostly vegan, but will make exceptions for oysters and mussels for very particular reasons that would bore most people. So I just tell 'em I'm vegan because that serves the situation best.

RetiredAt63

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #137 on: April 06, 2014, 05:54:30 PM »
I suppose it is regional - if someone tells me they are vegetarian I guess that they may (or may not) eat some eggs and/or dairy. Maybe, but probably not, fish.  If they say vegan I assume nothing animal - no eggs, no dairy, no fish, no sea-food, no nothing - i.e. really truly vegetarian.

Food choices are really so personal anyway, I will eat scallops, mussels and oysters when they cooked, but not raw.  Others love them in the shell.  I was once served a chowder that had tiny baby octopi in it, and I couldn't eat them, it was purely emotional/visceral, but I just couldn't.  Ate everything else, so it was truly irrational.

[

It's interesting, because usually I hear this argument from the other side. I.e., ovo-lactos complaining about pescatarian because then people assume that all vegetarians eat fish- which is a very common assumption where I live. Personally, I get it. I'm mostly vegan, but will make exceptions for oysters and mussels for very particular reasons that would bore most people. So I just tell 'em I'm vegan because that serves the situation best.

Cpa Cat

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #138 on: April 06, 2014, 07:33:29 PM »
An unfertilized egg is alive, it is one big cell, just never going to be a chicken. 

...since you are a piscivore maybe you can explain some of the thinking behind this - do you not count fish as meat? And if not, why not? 

I see your point about it being alive on a cellular level. But I don't worry too much about all of the bacteria I kill when I clean my toilet, either. They may be living in a biological sense, but I don't really consider them living in a... spiritual sense? I'm not sure if that's the right word. There's no elevated life form there. I didn't think that I killed something when I accidentally cut off the tip of my finger, either, and it was probably more alive than eggs!

I say I'm a "vegetarian" because it's easy. When I say, "Can you include a vegetarian option for lunch," it's easy to understand. Whatever they pick will fit the bill for me. I don't need to give them a list of things that are exceptions to the rule. I primarily don't give details because I wasn't always a vegetarian - I don't know if I will always eat fish. And from experience, I know that the decision can come along very quickly, with no particular trigger. One day I may decide that eating fish is something that I can no longer ethically tolerate, and I don't want to have to explain my sudden change the next time the office orders lunch. So to answer your question in a round about way - I do count fish as animals and I do consider it meat.

I think that keeping and killing animals for meat causes suffering, pain, sorrow and fear to other creatures. I believe this to be true. How can we justify this when we don't need meat for health or survival? For myself, I reasoned that if I sourced humanely-raised meat, then it was ok - but my husband didn't feel that way and I understood his feelings, so we became vegetarians.

At first, I didn't want to give up fish because I wanted to ensure a well-rounded, healthy diet. Whatever the ethics were, our health should come first. Furthermore, I could not find convincing evidence that fish feel pain and I do not believe they have emotions. I don't know if we're being cruel to fish by eating them. That said, I also haven't found convincing evidence that fish are necessary to a healthy diet, so when and if my husband decides he wants to give it up, I will too.

I personally have a bigger ethical issue with eggs and milk than I do with fish - but for health reasons, I do not want to become vegan. So instead, I try to make conscientious purchasing choices.

Sorry to turn this into an essay. But you asked. :)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 07:42:31 PM by Cpa Cat »

Argyle

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #139 on: April 06, 2014, 08:39:28 PM »
I believe it's now generally agreed that fish feel pain.  And why would they not?  It's nature's signal to avoid something.  I am reminded of the quote:

"They told me that the fish were cold-blooded and felt no pain.  But they were not fish who told me." Heywood Broun

Squirrel away

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #140 on: April 07, 2014, 06:17:34 AM »
Labels bother me because I want to know that when I order a vegan meal in a restaurant that it will be vegan and not contain animal products. Luckily over here in the UK labels are usually very good and food is labelled correctly.:)

Cpa Cat

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #141 on: April 07, 2014, 06:38:42 AM »
I believe it's now generally agreed that fish feel pain.  And why would they not?  It's nature's signal to avoid something.  I am reminded of the quote:

"They told me that the fish were cold-blooded and felt no pain.  But they were not fish who told me." Heywood Broun

Well, I researched it fairly recently, and I found that there is very little agreement on the subject.

The studies that have made conclusions on one side or the other come under fire fairly equally for biases and methodology problems. The debate seems to come down to: Fish avoid things that physically harm them - is this the same thing as pain? The argument against is that they do not have pain receptors as we know and understand them and that their brains don't contain the necessary components.

The argument for fish feeling pain is that fish react to negative stimuli, so whether or not they feel pain as we understand "pain," they must feel some version of pain. Just because we don't understand what exactly fish feel - if anything - does that make it ok to hurt them?

And does pain matter if fish feel no emotions associated with pain?

I don't have all the answers. I'm not a philosopher and I'm not a scientist. I just try to make the right choices for my personal well-being. In real life, I avoid these kinds of debates with anyone other than my husband. Using the word "vegetarian" works for me. No one really needs to know the nitty-gritty details of that that word means to me.

RetiredAt63

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #142 on: April 07, 2014, 06:43:56 AM »
@CpaCAt

Thank you for the explanation - I see now why you use the terms you do.

And yes, fish feel pain.  They have pain receptors - they are vertebrates, with a well-developed nervous system.  In Canada the Canadian Council on Animal Care has strict pain management guidelines for all vertebrates, plus squid and octopi because they also have well-developed nervous systems.

Even one-celled organisms appear to feel discomfort as they will move away from things that are bad for them.  Can we call it pain? But we do know they respond.

I have had many discussions with veterinarians about means of death - the general feeling is that how an animal (or person) dies is more important than the death itself, that the death should be painless or as close to painless as possible.

@Londoner

This is why I think I get fussy about terms as well - if we don't agree on what we mean by a word, then we can't depend on the word.

highwayskies

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #143 on: April 07, 2014, 07:09:57 AM »
When asked why you're making a food choice (or doing anything differently), you're inevitably pointing a finger back at the person, no matter your answer, and saying "but you're not."  Keep this in mind when answering, and rethink how answers like "I'm trying to eat more healthy" sound.  (Maybe this also applies to your stock answer to "You don't have a TV?" or "Why wouldn't you want a bigger house?")  It can definitely spark feelings of defensiveness of their own choice (whether they verbally push back, or not). 

To all of these questions, "This just feels like the right thing for me right now" is a pretty safe answer.  Something in this ballpark is still my answer about my diet choice after 15 years.

Isa Chandra Moskowitz has amazing vegan cooking/baking recipes, if you'd like to check some of the very best out.

clarkai

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #144 on: April 07, 2014, 08:31:41 AM »


And yes, fish feel pain.  They have pain receptors - they are vertebrates, with a well-developed nervous system.  In Canada the Canadian Council on Animal Care has strict pain management guidelines for all vertebrates, plus squid and octopi because they also have well-developed nervous systems.

Even one-celled organisms appear to feel discomfort as they will move away from things that are bad for them.  Can we call it pain? But we do know they respond.


This is interesting to me, as an amateur biologist, because in my own research and in most of the research I've read, they made the distinction between nociception (reaction to noxious stimulus, unconscious as in our own reflex arc {you withdraw your hand from something hot before you've consciously felt the pain}) which would cover bacteria, and pain (reaction to noxious stimulus which is processed by the brain (and thus a conscious feeling) and has an emotional component). I probably spent too much time reading research articles, but it's interesting to me. I do admit that I skipped right on down to bivalves, specifically mussels and oysters, because they clearly do not have brains,  have only rudimentary ganglia, and lack endogenous opiates or opiate receptors to inhibit pain. This to me (and a boat load of others) shows that what they have are rudimentary reflex arcs, rather than a true ability to feel pain.

Of course, they are my only exception for a number of other reasons to, relating to their effect on the environment, content of B12 and Omega 3s, and surprisingly to me when I looked it up, have one of the lowest mercury contamination of seafood.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 08:35:22 AM by clarkai »

Spork

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #145 on: April 07, 2014, 10:13:37 AM »
  Read Denise Minger's blog or new book on that. 

Yeah, yeah, then read the criticism of Denise Minger's blog criticizing The China Study. As it turns out, she (Minger) cherry-picked her data and has correlation/causation problems.


You don't have to read further than Minger to find those.  She says it out right in her China Study criticisms.  Her point was not to prove "meat = good" but to criticize the China Study.  She suggests (with long and great caveats) wheat may be the issue but goes to great lengths to say she has no proof whatsoever and further study would be required.

Cromacster

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #146 on: April 07, 2014, 10:43:21 AM »


Side note:  No offense intended with this post, just what comes to mind when veganism comes up.  Simpsons have covered it all.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 12:05:25 PM by Cromacster »

clarkai

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #147 on: April 22, 2014, 04:27:22 PM »
Whoo, good job killing the thread :p

Anyway, anybody else just have Easter with non-vegans? I brought a pile of legume based salads to our get-together. First time we'd been asked by this side of the family why we went vegan, and told them simply enough that I had worked on a chicken farm for 6 months. My SO mentioned Mad Cow, so that was fun.

mikefixac

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #148 on: April 22, 2014, 09:46:29 PM »
I'm overjoyed this topic gets discussed. Today I read a positive article about veganism in a right wing magazine. Written by Matthew Scully who wrote a marvelous book called "Dominion".

As far as having to defend or being asked why I eat the way I do, it rarely happens. I've been doing it for so long I guess I just don't pay too much attention to it.

As time has gone by though I find I'm getting even more strict with my diet, especially with salt. I think a high salt diet increases blood pressure which eventually enlarges the heart which leads to heart disease. Therefore, I eat out much less than I used to.

brewer12345

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Re: You don't eat meat anymore? What's wrong with you??!
« Reply #149 on: April 22, 2014, 10:38:20 PM »
Heh, you think you have problems getting people to accept that you are vegan?  Try explaining to people that you relish hunting and eating squirrels.  I think when my youngest gets married I will take the opportunity to embarrass her by mentioning that her second grade teacher uncomfortably asked DW, "Does your family eat squirrel?" after a school assignment that involved naming one's favorite foods.