Author Topic: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?  (Read 5074 times)

max9505672

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Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« on: November 03, 2017, 11:03:25 AM »
Hey!

So in a couple weeks, I'll have my 2017 evaluation with my manager + next year goal agreements followed by the yearly salary raise at the beginning of 2018. I work as a junior mechanical engineer for a big multinational company which most likely has pretty standard salary raise brackets, but I don't know for sure.

I also don't have a lot of experience as I began working there in September 2016. I got a pretty basic raise in January 2017 (2.5%) and since I was a new employee (3 months experience) and this is my first job out of college, I didn't negotiate at all and accepted the offer right off the bat.

Obviously, this time, having a whole additional year of experience, I am expecting a higher percentage. The offer they are going to make will also most likely be based on my evaluation which I don't know the result yet. I do know that my manager and colleagues appreciate my work though, I just haven't seen official numbers proving it yet.

So I am wondering, typically, are people negotiating their yearly increase and more precisely, how? Let's say my evaluation is good, without being incredible, and they offer 4%, what tools do I have for negotiation?

I know for a fact that the average raise for similar jobs and similar experience where I live was 3.9% in 2016 and 3.5% for 2017 (an engineering association runs a survey every year). Let's say they offer more than these numbers, what can I ask for?

Additional information 1: The company has changed the insurance policy starting January 2018 and this will have an negative impact (loss of net money) of 0.6% on my net salary.

Additional information 2: I will have 15 months experience in this role when I get the 2018 raise, but also have an additional 16 months experience as an intern for this company prior to getting hired full time. Maybe I should have negotiated when I first got the job (or at my last raise), but can I try something with that?

Finally, I anticipate that most of you will suggest to always negotiate and try to get the most you can. For sure, I agree. But I'm still aware of my value for the company; I'm new and I don't have a lot of experience. On the other end, they seem to like me and invest in me (many paid formations for example). So I'd appreciate realistic suggestions/opinions as I respect my manager and will not ask for something ridiculous. I want good arguments for realistic expectations.

Thanks to you all!

EDIT : I've researched a similar topic, but only found threads about negotiating on a new job offer. Please feel free to link a thread if it has already been discussed

Lady SA

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:39 AM »
I don't have many ideas, I'm just posting to show solidarity. I'm with a great company and a great team and doing really great work above my level that my manager appreciates. In our annual review meeting I'd like to push for a more significant raise (because I'm not eligible for a promotion for another year, despite currently performing at that next level, which is a whole 'nother story), but since I don't have the leverage of negotiating a new job offer I'm not sure how to do this. I have no desire to leave my current position because I'm in a really great spot, but I'd be curious what strategies people have for negotiating internal raises.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 11:17:46 AM »
I have worked six years for a multinational engineering company. At my employer, annual increases after reviews are non-negotiable. But, when I have good cause, I've successfully negotiated mid-year increases. So if you aren't satisfied, take on a couple of stretch goals in the first half of the year, and give them a good case in the summer.

(If you're truly underpaid, you may be better off switching employers.)

doneby35

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 11:29:14 AM »
Do you feel like your current pay if fair, or is it below average considering your experience?
Asking for a raise after 15 months I personally think is a little too early, and i would wait another year, unless you are doing an absolutely phenomenal job and your pay is less than the average in the industry.

My company gives annual merit based increases ranging from 3-5% of our salaries. I don't usually negotiate that one because they are not negotiable. But I do negotiate for a salary raise which is different than the annual merit increases and it's typically 15% in my field.

If you do end up asking for a raise, make sure you have bullet points to present to your manager as to how your skills have improved and how you are contributing to the company in order to justify the raise.

ooeei

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 11:33:14 AM »
1 year seems early to me to ask for an above average raise. I know at least for my job I wasn't particularly useful until around 2 years in. I'd focus more on building your accomplishments to give you ammo for next year.

Below is an outline I posted in another thread a few months ago. I got an 8% raise as an engineer at an oil and gas firm that froze raises for the last 3 years. My strategy was to do really well, and make it where it made more sense for them to give me a raise than to have me pissed.

I originally asked for more vacation time during my review since I knew raises were frozen, and they replied that they could only give it to me unofficially. I politely let my boss know I was pissed, although I understood it wasn't his call. I said something along the lines of "I know it's not your call, but I do want to let you know I'm not really happy about this, and don't think I'm being valued properly based on my accomplishments over the last year." I wasn't rude, but I wasn't super accommodating either. It was sort of awkward, but it got the message across. If I'd immediately caved and told him it was fine I understand, I don't know if he would've pushed it further. As is I got a phone call from him later that day saying the guy two levels up from him wanted to meet with me the next week. In the meeting he said there was no way they could do more official vacation, but would a raise be satisfactory? I said yes and got it a month or two later.

Things that helped me:

Having a huge list of every single thing I did that year, along with a list of things I did in the year before that I could refer to. So many people go into yearly reviews and just say the bare minimum or try to be modest. This is your chance to market yourself, talk it up! I keep track of everything I do during the year and copy/paste it into my yearly review as a list. You'd be surprised what things you forget about over a year. Quantify it as well. If you wrote 20 test reports, list out all 20 rather than just saying "wrote test reports." If your boss has to convince his boss to give you a raise over someone in another department, he'll be much more likely to succeed if he has a whole page of accomplishments to refer to, especially if the other guy lists 3 projects and some busy work.

Volunteering for extra things. I volunteered to travel overseas for a project nobody else wanted to do. I volunteered to give a safety presentation in front of a large group, I was the only volunteer in my department.

Damn, some of the results in here are crazy!  I just got 8% last week and thought I was doing well.  Granted, this is an oil/gas company that's had a lot of layoffs, so it was still better than the 0% I got last year.  It's separate from the standard increase that hopefully happens this year, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a bit of icing on the cake.  Now I'm just waiting for our 401k match to come back.

The raise actually came about because I asked for more vacation time, and they said they absolutely can't do that (although I am getting that unofficially as well), but could maybe do a raise.

Asking for something is always a good call . . . you never know where it will lead. Be sure to thank your boss so he or she will know you appreciate the effort.

Yeah I was pretty firm on the vacation, they came back saying they could only do it unofficially, and I basically said that wasn't good enough (although in a slightly more strategic way).   I also asked right around the end of a big project we did very well on, and have great bosses who are willing to go to bat for me.  I did thank them, and they assured me there was more coming in the future once the company relaxes a bit.  Right now the oil market is still bleak, so the higher ups really push back on benefits/raises.

Really it comes down to me doing well at my job, and volunteering for things other people don't want to do.  Becoming a "go-to" resource at work means they'll try harder to keep you around.  At most places I've worked, the bar isn't set very high, so just actually working 6 hours a day instead of the regular person's 3-4 will get you ahead.  Heck, I'm one of the only people I've ever heard at work telling their boss they're out of things to do, what else can you give me?  That alone sets a really good precedent that you aren't wasting time.  I've actually had my boss tell me to just figure out something to do because he ran out of stuff to give me.

Another big factor was having enough FU money to feel comfortable with the risk.  I'm nowhere near RE levels, but I've got enough that I could (although wouldn't want to) sustain myself for a few years if I really had to.  Chances are I could find a good job within 6 months, and I have that much easily accessible.  Another example of having money allowing you to make more money!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:35:52 AM by ooeei »

max9505672

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 11:35:48 AM »
Do you feel like your current pay if fair, or is it below average considering your experience?
Asking for a raise after 15 months I personally think is a little too early, and i would wait another year, unless you are doing an absolutely phenomenal job and your pay is less than the average in the industry.

My company gives annual merit based increases ranging from 3-5% of our salaries. I don't usually negotiate that one because they are not negotiable. But I do negotiate for a salary raise which is different than the annual merit increases and it's typically 15% in my field.

If you do end up asking for a raise, make sure you have bullet points to present to your manager as to how your skills have improved and how you are contributing to the company in order to justify the raise.
I don't feel underpaid. Actually, according to statistics, I am in the upper range of the bracket for similar jobs and experience.

What I am asking for is what you refer as ''annual merit based increases''. They might be negotiable, or not, I don't know. I'll try to speak with colleagues to know if they ever tried to negotiate.

In this company, bigger salary raise come with new positions, and generally, more responsibilities.

swinginbeef

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 11:50:00 AM »
If you want a larger raise at annual review/raise time, you more than likely missed your window. This should have been brought up at the previous quarterly or mid-year review. The offered raise is likely already determined and budgeted by the time you have the review. Your best bet is to use some time in this review to set a course for a larger than standard raise next year.

YoungInvestor

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 11:55:09 AM »
If you're in the upper range already, I would just take what they give unless you have a really solid relationship with your manager.

But then I've always had very fair managers who had a good assessment of my performance and gave me fair increases: I keep up with or exceed my job-hopping friends.

bognish

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 12:35:46 PM »
If your evaluation is good but not incredible is that how you honestly see your work? If you think you did incredible then say so. Here is where the list of accomplishments mentioned above is very important. If your manager still says this is good work deserving a good raise now is the time to ask what is needed to do incredible work and get an incredible raise next year. If they cannot answer that then set up follow up meeting to get that spelled out in writing. If you truely feel you did incredible work or assumed duties beyond your normal scope but got a lower raise than expected push back. Expect it to be awkward and don't rock the boat too hard unless you are seriously ready to start looking for a new job.

Most companies give most employees an average raise and don't expect anyone to push back. I do payroll so I know this for a fact. I have always gotten above average raises because I let my managers know during the year I am doing above average work and can provide lists of what got done. Twice I have been presented average raises and pushed back for more.  My manager had just told me I did great work, then 'here's your average raise'. I suggested they give me great raise for great work, expect average work next year since an average raise is the maximum I can expect, or we agree that I should look elsewhere for compensation I find fair. We agreed on the first option. It was awkward. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I also had a lot of FU money I was prepared to use.

soupcxan

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 12:44:26 PM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 12:46:25 PM by soupcxan »

bognish

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 01:21:48 PM »
If you told me all year I was doing great work and then gave me an average raise I would be pissed. You will either get average work next year or I will leave. If you won't go back to HR and management to ask for more money then I know you won't go to bat for me as an employee.

A hard negotiation from a new employee might be a hard sell, but if they exceeded expectations so should the company. An extra 1% on a new graduate is not that much $$$. Companies I have worked for have been willing to give a few hundred dollars at a new high achiever to keep them happy.

Guesl982374

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 01:24:12 PM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

+1

Your best bets are as follows:

-Pick up side work/side businesses
-Start interviewing after you've been there for 1.5-2 years <-- Depends on the market (location, industry, skills) but it wouldn't surprise me to see a 20%-30% jump

mm1970

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 01:47:15 PM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

My first raise in one of my jobs was 12%.  Because obviously I was performing.

When I worked for a large-ish engineering company (that job), I managed a couple of people.  We had a few engineers that we'd hired right out of school (sometimes they interned first).  And yes, 3-5% raise was pretty standard.

Why was it standard?  Well, this is why - each department gets a "pool" of raise money.  It's predetermined by corporate for everyone.  So, say it's 4%, which is typical. Within our 6 person group, you'd have to rob Peter to pay Paul - so to speak.  Well, that worked great when we had a low performer in the group - after the 12% raise (essentially a promotion), I regularly got 5%+.

But then he left.

So, here I am with a junior engineer working for me.  He started at a low-ish salary.  Then, his first review, he'd only been with us 9 months, so he got 3%.  The next review, 1 year later.

So, yes, he's got less than 2 years experience.  But he's head and shoulders over where he started in experience.  AND I happen to know that market rate in our industry, for 2-5 years experience was at least 20% more than he was making.

And that's a problem with many companies - they start you off low - but industry salary ranges jump pretty fast from the 2-5 year mark.  When my boss (who held the purse strings), told me "4%" for my guy, I fought it.  I said "well, you know that the going rate at 2 years is about $XX.  At 4% a year, it will take at least 4 years to get to that point.  How do we get him there faster?"

He said "good point, I don't really know".  Now, this boss was, and still is, a cheap-ass.  Like it's his goal in life to get people for the least amount of $$ possible. In the end I could do nothing.  He didn't push up the chain.

2 months later he got a job somewhere else.  Finally I get the guy trained to be nearly independent in his work, and poof.  He got a 35% raise to make the switch.


In any event, when I've counseled other young engineers on how to negotiate better pay at review time, it's been like this:
Discuss the work you are doing and your title.
Discuss the work that is needed to get the promotion to the next level.  In our case, we had Engineer 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. 
Ask your boss "What other things do I need to do to get that promotion?"
Come to the meeting with salary ranges and charts, if necessary.

Sometimes it works. It got my spouse a bigger first raise.  It got another coworker a big promotion and raise.
Sometimes it doesn't work.  Sometimes there's no money.  Sometimes, you aren't that good.  I mean, you are always being compared to other people.  I've worked with young engineers who have done all that and taken on more responsibility but...there was always somebody better.  The better person gets the $$ when there's a limited pot.

Sarah Saverdink

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 01:49:29 PM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

RidetheRain

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 04:17:01 PM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

Echoing here, if discussions have already finished then you are late. It's not an 'offer'; it's what you have. The only time I "negotiated" was midyear once. I was promoted with a 1.5% raise during the previous review. I let my manager know at that point that I was not happy to be doing more work for essentially the same pay. He agreed but was constrained by the budget which happens. He worked on it and midyear came around and I got a better pay increase to go with the promote. If you want something specific then you need to let them know early and accept that after they give you a number the negotiations are over. I wouldn't say anything in your situation. You have basically no leg to stand on.

max9505672

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 08:43:41 PM »
Most of your replies pretty much confirm what I tought.

I don't do exceptional work, and don't necessarily want to either for personal reasons. I do my job and do it well while taking experience. One day, when I'm ready, I'll look for new a role and responsabilities with higher salary. I really feel that the negotiable salary bumps come a new job/role (except some particular situations).

I started this thread because, being new, I really didn't know if those yearly raises should be negotiated or not. I felt like most people didn't bother putting a little work, gathering a little information prior to negotiating a raise and that it could be possible. I was, in most cases, probably wrong.

Some situations might be different though. If you happen to make yourself essential to the company or really outperform everybody else,  then yes, maybe you have something to work with.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 07:09:47 AM by max9505672 »

Proud Foot

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 01:53:27 PM »

I also don't have a lot of experience as I began working there in September 2016. I got a pretty basic raise in January 2017 (2.5%) and since I was a new employee (3 months experience) and this is my first job out of college, I didn't negotiate at all and accepted the offer right off the bat.

Pretty nice right there!  I have never been at a job that gave a raise unless you had been there at least 6 months at time of evaluations.

Quote
Additional information 1: The company has changed the insurance policy starting January 2018 and this will have an negative impact (loss of net money) of 0.6% on my net salary.

I am assuming this is before your raise?

I don't do exceptional work, and don't necessarily want to either for personal reasons. I do my job and do it well while taking experience. One day, when I'm ready, I'll look for new a role and responsabilities with higher salary. I really feel that the negotiable salary bumps come a new job/role (except some particular situations).
Sounds like you would have a hard time supporting your request for a higher than normal raise.

edit to fix quotes.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 07:43:26 AM by Proud Foot »

Acastus

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 02:13:21 PM »
Figure out what activities get you points in your company's review process. Concentrate on finishing these, and if you can do more, ask for more of them. Write down your accomplishments as you do them. If  you cannot remember what you did, for sure your boss will not remember either. Quickly finish the stupid stuff that the company considers critical, but only takes a little bit of time. Think safety training. Go to Salary.com and Glassdoor to figure out what you should be getting paid. Don't slam your peers during your review. Concentrate on what you did right.

max9505672

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 10:46:38 AM »
Additional information 1: The company has changed the insurance policy starting January 2018 and this will have an negative impact (loss of net money) of 0.6% on my net salary.

I am assuming this is before your raise?
Yes, 0.6% of my current salary. So let's say I have a 4% raise, it'll be equivalent to a 3.4% net one.

I don't do exceptional work, and don't necessarily want to either for personal reasons. I do my job and do it well while taking experience. One day, when I'm ready, I'll look for new a role and responsibilities with higher salary. I really feel that the negotiable salary bumps come a new job/role (except some particular situations).
Sounds like you would have a hard time supporting your request for a higher than normal raise.

edit to fix quotes.
I had my evaluation since then.

This is how my company evaluates the employees:
  • not fully meet the expectations:  < 115%
  • fully meeting the expectations:  115% to 125%
  • surpassed expectations:  >125%

I would guess those % values have a big impact on salary raise numbers.

I had a 122.5% evaluation. So, no, I don't do exceptional work but I fully meet the requirements, as I thought. I am not interested on working 60 hours/week to ''surpass expections'' either. But that's another story.

So I've decided I won't be negotiating if I get 4% or more. This is based on last year's raise of comparable colleagues (4.1%). If they propose less, I'll try to negotiate with the 0.6% insurance plan loss.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 11:13:45 AM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

I understand the points above but wonder how my position will play out. My company got me pretty cheap and gave me a little bump when I was promoted to a position that I should have been hired at to begin with. Our team has had 2 key positions open for over a year and we can't fill them (as in we can't even find qualified candidates to bring in).

Another team member was brought in late May at 80k, which is 18% more than my salary. Same position but she had a little bit more experience. I believe I have performed better and management likes me more since I am willing to travel/work longer hours/no get pissed off when called at home. We are still trying to fill another senior position and my guess is we would offer 80-85k. I'm sure they budgeted the normal 3-5% increase for me and its hard to give employees non-standard raises (especially since I work hard but not a superstar by any means).

I would guess they would raise me up to the very low 70s, which I wouldn't feel insulted because it always cost more to bring in outside talent and they have their predetermined budget, but I'm trying to figure out how to hint to my managers they better up my pay without sounding demanding. I don't want to leave and like my company, but hopefully I only have 20 years in the workplace and I need to jump at a chance to boost my salary by 20%.

RidetheRain

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2017, 11:24:19 AM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

I understand the points above but wonder how my position will play out. My company got me pretty cheap and gave me a little bump when I was promoted to a position that I should have been hired at to begin with. Our team has had 2 key positions open for over a year and we can't fill them (as in we can't even find qualified candidates to bring in).

Another team member was brought in late May at 80k, which is 18% more than my salary. Same position but she had a little bit more experience. I believe I have performed better and management likes me more since I am willing to travel/work longer hours/no get pissed off when called at home. We are still trying to fill another senior position and my guess is we would offer 80-85k. I'm sure they budgeted the normal 3-5% increase for me and its hard to give employees non-standard raises (especially since I work hard but not a superstar by any means).

I would guess they would raise me up to the very low 70s, which I wouldn't feel insulted because it always cost more to bring in outside talent and they have their predetermined budget, but I'm trying to figure out how to hint to my managers they better up my pay without sounding demanding. I don't want to leave and like my company, but hopefully I only have 20 years in the workplace and I need to jump at a chance to boost my salary by 20%.

If you are comparing to a position open in the company then just ask if they are willing to hire from within. Apply for the job yourself. You don't need to "hint" to your boss anything. It's your job and your life that they are purchasing. If you feel you aren't being paid properly then go find someone who will pay you correctly. There is no place for hiding desires in the workplace. Your boss isn't sitting around wondering what you want. Either you tell him and he knows or you don't and he never finds out.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 11:35:07 AM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

I understand the points above but wonder how my position will play out. My company got me pretty cheap and gave me a little bump when I was promoted to a position that I should have been hired at to begin with. Our team has had 2 key positions open for over a year and we can't fill them (as in we can't even find qualified candidates to bring in).

Another team member was brought in late May at 80k, which is 18% more than my salary. Same position but she had a little bit more experience. I believe I have performed better and management likes me more since I am willing to travel/work longer hours/no get pissed off when called at home. We are still trying to fill another senior position and my guess is we would offer 80-85k. I'm sure they budgeted the normal 3-5% increase for me and its hard to give employees non-standard raises (especially since I work hard but not a superstar by any means).

I would guess they would raise me up to the very low 70s, which I wouldn't feel insulted because it always cost more to bring in outside talent and they have their predetermined budget, but I'm trying to figure out how to hint to my managers they better up my pay without sounding demanding. I don't want to leave and like my company, but hopefully I only have 20 years in the workplace and I need to jump at a chance to boost my salary by 20%.

If you are comparing to a position open in the company then just ask if they are willing to hire from within. Apply for the job yourself. You don't need to "hint" to your boss anything. It's your job and your life that they are purchasing. If you feel you aren't being paid properly then go find someone who will pay you correctly. There is no place for hiding desires in the workplace. Your boss isn't sitting around wondering what you want. Either you tell him and he knows or you don't and he never finds out.
Point taken. It's a busy part of the year, so I'm focusing on work now and will be more direct once we are through the storm. Just for clarification, I know you meant it more as a philosophical point but the position is the exact same position as mine in the same department. The person doing the same job as me will be coming in making 20% more. I know that. They know I know that (we have access to salaries due to our roles). It's more against the company norm to give raises based on market and the willingness of a new manager and a vp to use political capital to get me a big raise.

But overall i agree with you on being more direct and honest. I don't think anyone could blame me for saying I would leave for a 20% increase.

Crease

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2017, 11:43:25 AM »
I recently lateraled to a new firm for what I believe is slightly below market but still double what I previously made. A major major improvement so I didn't negotiate the starting salary -- I didn't think it was worth potentially rocking the boat under the circumstances. I'm hoping to renegotiate in a year or two based on market but we'll see. In any event, it's possible I'm pretty much right at their max for the position -- salary guides for my industry aren't that granular.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 11:49:36 AM by Crease »

Zola.

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 02:31:01 PM »
I feel for you, but you are young and have it all ahead of you. I would focus on working hard and doing your best, but if you dont ask, you dont get. I wouldn't go it too often because you can get a reputation for it..... The previous post from soupxcan is pretty much spot on, review meetings have their raises all predetermined with HR and the finance people.

I have been in a similar position to you along the years. I love the company I work for now, and my colleagues are mostly all great people, but to be honest I got the best raise when I was considering another job offer. You can only play that card once though, so choose your timing wisely.

Its just business, they will pay you as little as you will tolerate without quitting.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:38:07 PM by Zola. »

Villanelle

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2017, 11:16:29 PM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

I understand the points above but wonder how my position will play out. My company got me pretty cheap and gave me a little bump when I was promoted to a position that I should have been hired at to begin with. Our team has had 2 key positions open for over a year and we can't fill them (as in we can't even find qualified candidates to bring in).

Another team member was brought in late May at 80k, which is 18% more than my salary. Same position but she had a little bit more experience. I believe I have performed better and management likes me more since I am willing to travel/work longer hours/no get pissed off when called at home. We are still trying to fill another senior position and my guess is we would offer 80-85k. I'm sure they budgeted the normal 3-5% increase for me and its hard to give employees non-standard raises (especially since I work hard but not a superstar by any means).

I would guess they would raise me up to the very low 70s, which I wouldn't feel insulted because it always cost more to bring in outside talent and they have their predetermined budget, but I'm trying to figure out how to hint to my managers they better up my pay without sounding demanding. I don't want to leave and like my company, but hopefully I only have 20 years in the workplace and I need to jump at a chance to boost my salary by 20%.

If you are comparing to a position open in the company then just ask if they are willing to hire from within. Apply for the job yourself. You don't need to "hint" to your boss anything. It's your job and your life that they are purchasing. If you feel you aren't being paid properly then go find someone who will pay you correctly. There is no place for hiding desires in the workplace. Your boss isn't sitting around wondering what you want. Either you tell him and he knows or you don't and he never finds out.
Point taken. It's a busy part of the year, so I'm focusing on work now and will be more direct once we are through the storm. Just for clarification, I know you meant it more as a philosophical point but the position is the exact same position as mine in the same department. The person doing the same job as me will be coming in making 20% more. I know that. They know I know that (we have access to salaries due to our roles). It's more against the company norm to give raises based on market and the willingness of a new manager and a vp to use political capital to get me a big raise.

But overall i agree with you on being more direct and honest. I don't think anyone could blame me for saying I would leave for a 20% increase.

You said the new unfilled position is a "senior" position, then you said it's the exact same as your job.  So you are a "senior" after a year and a half of working there?  Is it truly exactly the same?

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2017, 08:26:43 AM »
As a manager, I would find the idea that an employee was coming in to "negotiate" their annual raise quite humorous. It's not a negotiation, it's a monologue: this is what you're getting because this is what was approved by HR and budgeted by management. The die is already cast.

Are you changing positions in the company and taking on more responsibility? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

Are you a superstar and you're considering external offers? Then maybe we have something to negotiate.

But I would appreciate the laugh from someone with <2 years experience trying to talk me up from 3% to 4%.

This. Exactly.

I'm also an engineering manager. We are given a budget for the department. We allocate raises accordingly when we do performance reviews, it takes a month or two for final budget approval and then we inform employees what they are receiving. There is no "negotiation". If you want a higher than average raise, be a higher than average employee. Those with high performance and who are taking on stretch assignments, receive higher than average raises.

I understand the points above but wonder how my position will play out. My company got me pretty cheap and gave me a little bump when I was promoted to a position that I should have been hired at to begin with. Our team has had 2 key positions open for over a year and we can't fill them (as in we can't even find qualified candidates to bring in).

Another team member was brought in late May at 80k, which is 18% more than my salary. Same position but she had a little bit more experience. I believe I have performed better and management likes me more since I am willing to travel/work longer hours/no get pissed off when called at home. We are still trying to fill another senior position and my guess is we would offer 80-85k. I'm sure they budgeted the normal 3-5% increase for me and its hard to give employees non-standard raises (especially since I work hard but not a superstar by any means).

I would guess they would raise me up to the very low 70s, which I wouldn't feel insulted because it always cost more to bring in outside talent and they have their predetermined budget, but I'm trying to figure out how to hint to my managers they better up my pay without sounding demanding. I don't want to leave and like my company, but hopefully I only have 20 years in the workplace and I need to jump at a chance to boost my salary by 20%.

If you are comparing to a position open in the company then just ask if they are willing to hire from within. Apply for the job yourself. You don't need to "hint" to your boss anything. It's your job and your life that they are purchasing. If you feel you aren't being paid properly then go find someone who will pay you correctly. There is no place for hiding desires in the workplace. Your boss isn't sitting around wondering what you want. Either you tell him and he knows or you don't and he never finds out.
Point taken. It's a busy part of the year, so I'm focusing on work now and will be more direct once we are through the storm. Just for clarification, I know you meant it more as a philosophical point but the position is the exact same position as mine in the same department. The person doing the same job as me will be coming in making 20% more. I know that. They know I know that (we have access to salaries due to our roles). It's more against the company norm to give raises based on market and the willingness of a new manager and a vp to use political capital to get me a big raise.

But overall i agree with you on being more direct and honest. I don't think anyone could blame me for saying I would leave for a 20% increase.

You said the new unfilled position is a "senior" position, then you said it's the exact same as your job.  So you are a "senior" after a year and a half of working there?  Is it truly exactly the same?
I meant "senior" as in the position we are hiring. We are all senior auditors that were hired with previous experience. I was hired as a "staff" though if I held out I probably would've had the senior title since I previously had that title at my other job. In my role you are usually a senior for 3 years so I'm more of an "experienced senior" at this point. (If you take my 6 months here as a senior and a year at the other job) we are trying to fill a spot on my team with the equivalent or slightly more experience. However, we will be working on the same projects and given the same responsibilities.

If I left, they would have to replace me at 20% my salary and lose someone that has a year of experience with a pretty diverse and complicated business structure. It would be hard to plug and play someone in my role.

YoungInvestor

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2017, 09:00:44 AM »
I'd like to know what your other options are like.

In any case, try to frame it as "I see that the market rate is more like x for my position, is there any way we can work towards that?"

Gage the response, but it's possible that you will need to move on if you do want an increase. If you have no leverage whatsoever, I wouldn't ask that question at all.

obstinate

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2017, 01:25:22 PM »
Without a BATNA, asking for a salary increase is rarely going to be effective unless you are clearly and dramatically underpaid.

formerlydivorcedmom

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2017, 02:54:08 PM »
The first company I worked for was regularly hiring people with the exact same amount of experience as me at 20-25% higher salaries.  When those of us who had been at the company for years complained, management shrugged.  Some of us left for other companies, but many didn't, out of fear of change or inertia or ???  I think management was counting on that.

If your boss doesn't do a mid-year review, ask for one.  Bring your list of accomplishments, in detail.  Bring proof of market rate.  Get endorsements from your internal clients/peers, if possible (I advocated very strongly with my boss and his boss for a junior developer on my team to be promoted- he deserved it). Ask what you need to do to be brought up to market rate during the next raise period.

This time next year, when you have 2 years' experience, you'll be able to decide whether to stay or go, depending on what you are given.

max9505672

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2017, 06:39:04 PM »
Thanks everobody for your inputs!

I got to tell, I am whatís called a junior engineer from where I am from, which is what every engineer has to go through for the first  two years after college. For those 2 years, we have reduced responsabilities (canít sign any documents / drawings as a normal engineer would - basically a more experienced person has to review everything I do).

After those 2 years, the responsabilities come. This is when I expect to get a noticeable salary raise, especially because the nature of my job is producing (and eventually signing) drawings/documents.

For now, I expect sonething around 4% and am OK with it.

max9505672

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2018, 12:52:20 PM »
For those interested, I got a 4.1% raise, which I am happy with.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Yearly salary raise - How to negotiate?
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2018, 04:07:36 AM »
Not bad. If take on a few higher-level responsibilities soon you can ask for more this spring.