Author Topic: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense  (Read 13281 times)

Guitarist

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Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« on: August 14, 2015, 08:51:11 AM »
Hello all, I'm in a pickle.

I'm currently in the Kansas City area and have found an opportunity in Casper, Wyoming that would provide a 15% pay increase.
Actually, when you include the tax savings in the state (Kansas/Missouri state tax and the KC, MO 1% "earnings" tax) it's more like a 20% pay increase.
And if you factor in property tax savings (from what I gather, it would be 50% of what I'm paying now for a similar sized home) and sales tax (Wyoming has no sales tax on groceries), the savings add up even further.

I've tried explaining this to DW. Didn't really change anything.

I've tried explaining that, unless you want to spend money, there's not a lot to do around here. I mean, we can go for a walk or ride a bike but we're going through suburbs, on a basically flat surface. Nothing much interesting to see, IMO. Nothing.

I've explained that the job is paying relocation expenses. Nothing.

I've explained that Wyoming offers a great scholarship program for its kids who do well in school. Nothing.

While stopping there for dinner on our way back from her dads (Montana) this summer, she remarked about how much she liked the town and how everyone she came across was polite and friendly. I mentioned that she had said this a few weeks ago. Nothing.
To be fair, I believe it was just to placate me. I've mentioned before that I would like to move to Montana or Colorado before and had actually showed her a similar position for me open in Missoula but she wasn't interested. I'm guessing she thought it was close to impossible to find a decent paying job for me in Casper so that lead to the comment.

She has also said in the past that she would like to live in a smaller town. Now, being an engineer that isn't the easiest thing to manage. About the only other towns in the state I can get a job in we wouldn't want to move to anyway. Casper is about as small as I could get.

She happens to be a teacher and I know she would have to get a teaching license for Wyoming. That being said, she mentioned she would not want to move in the middle of a school year. I haven't told her but I wouldn't mind that actually as she could be applying for her Wyoming teacher license and for positions while she finished out her current year here. In fact, I researched the school district and they have a SPED junior high position open that she would qualify for if she had a license. Their pay looks slightly lower on average but most of that would be made up in the lack of state income tax. I've also researched schools (actually because she said she thought she heard Kansas has one of the best teaching and teacher retirement programs in the country, it doesn't on either front) and found that Wyoming is actually pretty impressive in most categories (pay is when you adjust for COL).

So I asked her why she was against it, what was wrong with the scenario I presented.
Two things:

1) She just absolutely loves Kansas
                     That's just something I won't understand. Don't get me wrong, the people are alright. All that "Kansas is bigoted" stuff you may hear is mostly just hot air. However, the state is being run into the ground by it's politicians. I've tried pointing out that they treat teachers like crap and it's only getting worse. Instead of trying to attract talented teachers, they are testing a pilot program to allow non-licensed individuals to apply for teaching positions. She believes the line that it's for positions like shop or tech classes so an actual professional can teach a course. I believe that it's a path toward having teachers compete with non-teachers so they can drive down their salaries.
I've also tried to understand what it is about the state itself she loves. Apparently it's because it's in the center of the country and we could go anywhere. I ask her why she would want to live in a place with nothing to do for 50 weeks just to have the opportunity to spend a week or two where there's something to do. Why not live in a place like that where you can walk out your door and take a hike or go mountain biking or go fish by a river or try rock climbing, etc. Beyond that, it's the 21st century. Getting places is pretty easy, it's not like we need to prep the covered wagon.
I also pointed out that when we have people over all they want to do is visit wineries and/or breweries (she's not a teetotaler but she's not a fan of alcohol). When there's not much to do, people start heading toward booze.
I've also asked her to consider the state/local taxes we pay and if that money gets put to enough use that she considers it worth the cost. About the only loss I can see from services would be road clearing in the winter.

2) We're trying to have kids. She wants her mom around while she's pregnant and having her kids.
                       Her mom is 2.5 hours away. I can understand this reasoning to a point. Not trying to sound bitter but her mom has been pretty wrapped up in herself for the last few years (personally, I don't like the way she or her sister was treated during this time but that's really up to the three of them to work through). She's become better but I still won't hold my breath for her to be around that much to help her through everything. Beyond that, she's mentioned that she wouldn't mind moving further away either.
That being said, we're currently 2 days from her dad and 3 from her Grandma. Moving to Casper would put us within 1 day of her dad, 1 day of her mom/sister, 1 day of my parents/sister, and 2 days of her Grandma.

This is probably way more information than I needed to provide but part of this is venting and part of it is explaining everything I've tried explaining already. I just cannot understand the lack of desire to fulfill so many of her check boxes on the type of place she'd like to live in. Plus, it would lead to more money in our pockets (ahem, accounts) to help us get to FI that much quicker.

Has anyone been through this from either side? I've been told to drop the logic aspect of the discussion and get to the feelings side, which lead to the wanting mom around discussion. Again, I get her point there but history tells me she won't be getting what she wants.

Does anyone have any other advice for how they were able to talk a loved one into a step like this?

Is Casper just a shit hole and I should just let the job go?

tj

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2015, 08:58:03 AM »
I've never been to Wyoming, but it sounds like she is stubborn about this. I am also someone who is very stubborn. So it someone was trying to convince me, I'd say come up with a better reason. There's got to be something that she would like better about Wyoming, maybe you just haven't thought of it yet?

h2ogal

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2015, 09:18:49 AM »
Hello!

About your Wife and the move to Wyoming.  Whats in it for HER?  So you will get a 20% net income boost.  But she may lose her kansas teachers pension (if there is one, I assume there is something), her salary and job security/seniority, her friends, her routine and her mom will be further away.

I dont think you will be able to sell her the idea unless you can frame the benefits in a way that are aligned with her personal desires.

Also, an idea is to plan a totally FUN and exciting/romantic weekend to Wyoming and show her how much fun the place can be.

Either way you will have to put some effort into the sale!

abiteveryday

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2015, 09:51:08 AM »
I'm pretty much stuck in Seattle for the same reason.     I like Seattle, I have friends here and it has a lot to offer.    But DAMN is it expensive.    We could relocate to basically anywhere in the country but SF, NYC, or Honolulu and come out ahead.    But she's been here her whole life, and just can't imagine leaving.    Even in abstract, she says she would want to keep our house here as a rental "so we still have it when we moved back".      Meanwhile I look at jobs and real estate in Kalispell, and resign myself to not retiring for an extra ten years because it will never happen.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 09:53:36 AM »
I appreciate the responses, all great points and questions.

tj,
I'm trying to find those reasons. I'm about to make a list of pros and cons and ask her to help me put it together. I actually wonder if I can get her to admit to some pros and if that might open the door a little.

DMY,

From what I gather, Wyoming makes up the difference with its natural resources. It's population is so small that an income tax wouldn't amount to much anyway. It looks like it just does with less (hospitals and highways, for example). At first I figured they make up for it with property tax and sales tax but as I mentioned, that's not the case right now.

Negatives:
- Long, cold winters. She likes snow but even I will admit that Wyoming can be pretty brisk. But again, she loves snow.
- Road maintenance is abysmal from what I hear. Interstates are usually closed instead of cleared. I have heard that it is better within town though.
- We would be 1 day from my parents and her mom instead of 2-2.5 hours. But I balance that with being closer to her dad.
- I've heard Casper is not necessarily a jewel of the mountain states. Not to say it's bad, from what I've heard, but I'm sure a town like Whitefish or Missoula is probably more desirable.
- Thanks to the natural resource boom, housing/renting prices have gone up. I've looked around though and they are close to where I'm at now.
- I've heard many homes are considered dated. Not really sure I mind, I'm not looking for a 5 head shower anyway.

As to your library example, I would understand that. However, the public library system in the US is rather robust. Looks like 1 or 2 public libraries and also another at the community college.

From what I see, the average SPED teacher in my area is listed around $50k, the average in Wyoming is $48k. The position I looked at doesn't actually list the salary. So some of that difference she makes up for with tax savings, my increase would make up the rest. Still a net gain hovering at 20% or higher.

And I can see your last point clearly. She mentioned us moving after we have kids. I already know what would happen if I brought it up then: "why uproot our kids from their friends and neighbors?" I grew up an army brat, moving never bothered me.

h2ogal,

I would have to dig deeper but there are ways to get credit for teaching in a different state when one moves, I've looked into it but it wasn't 100% clear. This is only her third year so seniority is not that important yet. Our best friends actually moved back to Whitefish hence my attempt at finding something in Missoula. We probably have 1 set of good friends in the area excluding work acquaintances. And as I mentioned, she usually complains about the choice of activity when our other friends comes to visit.
I've been trying to frame this toward her desires, but I just can't see what I've missed.
She already likes the area, she likes Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, but as a visit. I think doing that weekend would just reinforce that it's a place to visit. I'm trying to understand why one would spend the majority of their life in a rather dull place and have to travel a day or more to visit some place more entertaining.




I just find it funny she is bringing up her mom being around during a pregnancy when she told me a year ago or so that she won't want them around too much. I figured being a day away would afford that freedom. Close enough to have an extended weekend or a week long visit but far enough that there can't be unannounced visits or extended stays.

mm1970

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 09:56:57 AM »
Well, maybe you get her to try it out?

One of my bosses was living here.  He's of Korean descent, and his wife was actually born and raised in Korea.  She likes big cities.

He got her to agree to give it 4 years.

4 years were up, she said "I'm done", and they moved to Dallas.

Can you get her to try it out for a few years?  Maybe write down all the +'s and -'s and get her to think about it.

On the teacher thing, interesting point.  I just met our new elementary principal last night.  He's about my age (45).  His first teaching job was in NYC and was just like that program you are talking about - he had a degree in criminal justice but they hired him to teach without a credential.  Well, that was 20 years ago now.  I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 10:03:09 AM »
Hello there,
I live in Wyoming and lived in Casper for a few years when I was a child. I have family there so we go quite often. Casper is actually one of the bigger cities in Wyoming with more shopping and restaurant options than most towns here. I like Casper, except for that it can get pretty windy there but that is most of Wyoming in general. Teachers' pay in Wyoming is higher than most states, have your wife take a look at those numbers. They also have a great retirement and benefits program for teachers in the state.  Scholarship programs here are awesome due to the Hathaway Scholarship. If a Wyoming resident goes to college in state and had decent grades through high school and a decent ACT score it is basically free to very low cost.  I did all of my education at a community college here and the University of Wyoming and paid very little, mostly just living expenses. I also earned my master's degree for free because there are so many great graduate assistantships available at the University of Wyoming.
You mentioned that there is no tax on grocery items. There is also no state income tax in the state of Wyoming so you only have to worry about Federal income taxes.
If you have any direct questions feel free to ask here or message me. 

Cyanne

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 10:04:56 AM »
Your wife may get credit for her teaching experience on the salary scale but I don't know of any pensions that transfer from one state to another. If you hear otherwise, please let me know. It is the main reason I don't move away from Minnesota's cold winters!

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 10:06:53 AM »
I'm pretty much stuck in Seattle for the same reason.     I like Seattle, I have friends here and it has a lot to offer.    But DAMN is it expensive.    We could relocate to basically anywhere in the country but SF, NYC, or Honolulu and come out ahead.    But she's been here her whole life, and just can't imagine leaving.    Even in abstract, she says she would want to keep our house here as a rental "so we still have it when we moved back".      Meanwhile I look at jobs and real estate in Kalispell, and resign myself to not retiring for an extra ten years because it will never happen.

Sounds just like me. When we made our first visit to her dads (my first trip to Montana) I fell in love... with the state, not her dad.
I would point out properties for sale while we there. Tell her it would be nice to live in a place with so much nature, space, public lands, national parks, etc. Though I figured jobs would be tough to come by.
So I've been looking at jobs there, Colorado, now Wyoming. I only really bring up the serious ones that are either in a great city (plenty of jobs in Billings but no thank you) or offer a substantial pay increase or both.

I thought the Missoula opportunity was pretty awesome but I let it go. I just can't see the issues with this one. I almost feel like taking the plunge and applying for it. Thinking back, she hated being in the KC metro area when she first moved here.
And no, before you think that she's been moving with me the whole time, we both were in college in Kansas, I graduated first and got a job in KC, she finished school then moved in with me. She wants to live in a rural area, on a farm. I told her then if that's what she really wants then she needed to find a farmer.
So now to hear her clamoring to stay here is kind of surprising.

I don't want to pull the rug from under her but she seems resistant to change. I don't want her resenting me but if she can't defend her position that well, giving up on opportunities like this can lead to the reverse.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 10:09:57 AM »
Your wife may get credit for her teaching experience on the salary scale but I don't know of any pensions that transfer from one state to another. If you hear otherwise, please let me know. It is the main reason I don't move away from Minnesota's cold winters!

You may be right...
I think what I found is that they are letting teachers "buy" back credit but this only seems worthwhile if one is vested. But it changes from state to state and I would have to do a little homework to see exactly what needs to happen.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 10:13:09 AM »
Well, maybe you get her to try it out?

One of my bosses was living here.  He's of Korean descent, and his wife was actually born and raised in Korea.  She likes big cities.

He got her to agree to give it 4 years.

4 years were up, she said "I'm done", and they moved to Dallas.

Can you get her to try it out for a few years?  Maybe write down all the +'s and -'s and get her to think about it.

On the teacher thing, interesting point.  I just met our new elementary principal last night.  He's about my age (45).  His first teaching job was in NYC and was just like that program you are talking about - he had a degree in criminal justice but they hired him to teach without a credential.  Well, that was 20 years ago now.  I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

I thought of that. She threw in that she would then want to wait to have kids then. Well, she already resents that I waited six years before we were married (I wasn't going to take that decision lightly) and she's freaking out about having the first kid around 30. Well, four years or so puts us both past 30.
I may try it again though, just to see if there is a chance.

I don't see the program as a bad thing either, if it's being done for the reasons stated. I, however, see many issues with the Kansas budget right now and that there is a potential to abuse that program to save the state some money.

jorjor

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 10:20:02 AM »
This is probably way more information than I needed to provide but part of this is venting and part of it is explaining everything I've tried explaining already. I just cannot understand the lack of desire to fulfill so many of her check boxes on the type of place she'd like to live in. Plus, it would lead to more money in our pockets (ahem, accounts) to help us get to FI that much quicker.

Has she lived there her whole life? Change is really hard and really scary. Even really strong people have difficulty moving away from what they've known forever.

My parents live in a 400 person town that they both grew up in. My grandma lives in that town, but siblings have spread out. I went to school 5 miles away. They both work in the closest "city" about 20-25 miles east. My brother is now in high school and they have open enrolled him in a school that is in the same town they work in. They were both driving to-from work because of different schedules, and often a third round trip each way for my brother's things. It took me forever to convince them to move and they are finally looking at houses. There were several excuses for why it didn't make sense, each one of them I shot down and tried to logic with them (mostly my mother). I'm not convinced she was actually worried about any of those things. I think she was just scared to move from what she's known. And it was 20 miles, to a town that she already visits everyday.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 10:33:00 AM »
Does your wife find exploring the great outdoors as appealing as you do? Because if my husband was trying to sell me on relocating and one of his big points was that we'd have great hiking and biking and fishing opportunities, this would make zero impact. I hate that stuff. And I don't go for spendy entertainment; I'd just much rather stay home with a book.

She likes camping, she brought up getting bikes, she likes fishing, she isn't a gun enthusiast per se but she likes shooting them (safely, of course). Trust me, I wouldn't make that case if she hated it. She says she doesn't go for spendy entertainment but it always leads to it. And she hates sitting around the house. I could be fine with it if need be, I love reading.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2015, 10:37:27 AM »
This is probably way more information than I needed to provide but part of this is venting and part of it is explaining everything I've tried explaining already. I just cannot understand the lack of desire to fulfill so many of her check boxes on the type of place she'd like to live in. Plus, it would lead to more money in our pockets (ahem, accounts) to help us get to FI that much quicker.

Has she lived there her whole life? Change is really hard and really scary. Even really strong people have difficulty moving away from what they've known forever.

My parents live in a 400 person town that they both grew up in. My grandma lives in that town, but siblings have spread out. I went to school 5 miles away. They both work in the closest "city" about 20-25 miles east. My brother is now in high school and they have open enrolled him in a school that is in the same town they work in. They were both driving to-from work because of different schedules, and often a third round trip each way for my brother's things. It took me forever to convince them to move and they are finally looking at houses. There were several excuses for why it didn't make sense, each one of them I shot down and tried to logic with them (mostly my mother). I'm not convinced she was actually worried about any of those things. I think she was just scared to move from what she's known. And it was 20 miles, to a town that she already visits everyday.

I think this might be the issue.
She grew up in North Dakota but probably lived in Kansas since she was 6 or so.
I guess I am just not that attached to a place like she is. I was born overseas, I've lived in three states on the east coast. After living in five places, I can safely say that Kansas is the least interesting of them.

I may go the let's try it for a few years route. Though, I'm with those who worry about her pension. It would be nice if they could be more mobile.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2015, 10:40:37 AM »
Hello there,
I live in Wyoming and lived in Casper for a few years when I was a child. I have family there so we go quite often. Casper is actually one of the bigger cities in Wyoming with more shopping and restaurant options than most towns here. I like Casper, except for that it can get pretty windy there but that is most of Wyoming in general. Teachers' pay in Wyoming is higher than most states, have your wife take a look at those numbers. They also have a great retirement and benefits program for teachers in the state.  Scholarship programs here are awesome due to the Hathaway Scholarship. If a Wyoming resident goes to college in state and had decent grades through high school and a decent ACT score it is basically free to very low cost.  I did all of my education at a community college here and the University of Wyoming and paid very little, mostly just living expenses. I also earned my master's degree for free because there are so many great graduate assistantships available at the University of Wyoming.
You mentioned that there is no tax on grocery items. There is also no state income tax in the state of Wyoming so you only have to worry about Federal income taxes.
If you have any direct questions feel free to ask here or message me.

I will look closer at the teaching benefits.
Like I said, she made that comment about Kansas being a great state for teachers but when I looked it up, it was actually middle of the pack to low end while Wyoming (surprisingly to me) was near the top.

I appreciate all the info, it's similar to what I've been finding out in my research. Glad to hear from someone who's actually lived there and enjoyed it. I may end up taking you up on that offer if I need to find out some of the good neighborhoods in the city.

Thanks!

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2015, 11:02:53 AM »
This is probably way more information than I needed to provide but part of this is venting and part of it is explaining everything I've tried explaining already. I just cannot understand the lack of desire to fulfill so many of her check boxes on the type of place she'd like to live in. Plus, it would lead to more money in our pockets (ahem, accounts) to help us get to FI that much quicker.

Has she lived there her whole life? Change is really hard and really scary. Even really strong people have difficulty moving away from what they've known forever.

My parents live in a 400 person town that they both grew up in. My grandma lives in that town, but siblings have spread out. I went to school 5 miles away. They both work in the closest "city" about 20-25 miles east. My brother is now in high school and they have open enrolled him in a school that is in the same town they work in. They were both driving to-from work because of different schedules, and often a third round trip each way for my brother's things. It took me forever to convince them to move and they are finally looking at houses. There were several excuses for why it didn't make sense, each one of them I shot down and tried to logic with them (mostly my mother). I'm not convinced she was actually worried about any of those things. I think she was just scared to move from what she's known. And it was 20 miles, to a town that she already visits everyday.

I think this might be the issue.
She grew up in North Dakota but probably lived in Kansas since she was 6 or so.
I guess I am just not that attached to a place like she is. I was born overseas, I've lived in three states on the east coast. After living in five places, I can safely say that Kansas is the least interesting of them.

I may go the let's try it for a few years route. Though, I'm with those who worry about her pension. It would be nice if they could be more mobile.

I lived in the same small town from when I was 5 until I married and the minute my husband's career makes it viable, we will look at moving back. I have deep roots there; I know everyone; I look around and my soul relaxes and no twenty percent pay increase would get me to move. As it is, I have found living in a different part of the same metro area very, very hard. Not everyone is meant to move around a lot. My mother had a childhood like yours, and found it so traumatic she made my father promise he wouldn't do that to us.

I understand, trust me.
However, she spent her early years in North Dakota and KC was new to both of us. She doesn't know everyone. The city is comparatively large.
Besides, she has no real desire to live in the town she spent her elementary through high school years (where her mom currently lives).

And I don't want to move around a lot. I am trying to find a place that improves quality of life and I understand that term can be subjective.
But I've already ruled out living near a beach due to her not liking sand.

Fuzz

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2015, 11:04:08 AM »
I live in a small town in Wyoming -- not Casper, but I visit.

Check out Wyofile and their series on young people that have moved away from Wyoming and what it would take to get them back. Check out http://oilcitywyo.com/2015/08/13/what-casper-is-not/

I'd visit for 3-4 days and see what you think. Casper has some drawbacks--not a lot of nightlife or great restaurants. You can smoke in bars. The downtown feels like the heyday was in the 50s or 60s. It's kinda rough. I'd go to the Wonderbar when you visit.

If I were looking for Rocky Mountain lifestyle towns, I'd pick Bozeman, Lander, Missoula, Whitefish and some of the small towns in Colorado over Casper. The outdoor access in Casper is good but not great. It's more western (fishing, hunting and horses) and less REI (backpacking, mountain biking, climbing).

Wyoming state employees have bullet proof pensions. With coal prices and stocks in the toilet, it's likely that Wyoming will have to change it's tax structure at some point. So this may change. But you're right, the state government has a ton of money in the permanent trust fund from mineral royalties and doesn't spend a whole lot of money either. The republicans in charge of Wyoming are more business friendly than ideologues like in Kansas.


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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2015, 11:09:21 AM »
I think the other posters have put their fingers on it. This is not about how good or bad Wyoming objectively is...it's about the fact that she doesn't want to move. I have moved around my whole life and hate it every time (just the misery of getting all the stuff from one place to another, and dealing with all the paperwork etc) and there's no fear component for me, so I can see how it could be a huge barrier for someone who has less experience.

My suggestion would be to drop Wyoming for now and explore the bigger question of whether she would ever be willing to move (and the fact that you are not entirely happy where you are). Where might a compromise fall?

There is another thread going right now about a poster whose husband did a bit of a bait-and-switch on having children, which she is now trying to figure out. A number of posters have pointed out that if she talks him into it against his better judgment, every time something goes wrong, or the children are difficult, etc, he will be blaming her for making him do it. I would be concerned the same would happen here. Moving is incredibly stressful and hard even if you don't mind the overall idea--if your wife goes into it with a bad attitude you're sunk.

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2015, 11:28:25 AM »
I live in a small town in Wyoming -- not Casper, but I visit.

Check out Wyofile and their series on young people that have moved away from Wyoming and what it would take to get them back. Check out http://oilcitywyo.com/2015/08/13/what-casper-is-not/

I'd visit for 3-4 days and see what you think. Casper has some drawbacks--not a lot of nightlife or great restaurants. You can smoke in bars. The downtown feels like the heyday was in the 50s or 60s. It's kinda rough. I'd go to the Wonderbar when you visit.

If I were looking for Rocky Mountain lifestyle towns, I'd pick Bozeman, Lander, Missoula, Whitefish and some of the small towns in Colorado over Casper. The outdoor access in Casper is good but not great. It's more western (fishing, hunting and horses) and less REI (backpacking, mountain biking, climbing).

Wyoming state employees have bullet proof pensions. With coal prices and stocks in the toilet, it's likely that Wyoming will have to change it's tax structure at some point. So this may change. But you're right, the state government has a ton of money in the permanent trust fund from mineral royalties and doesn't spend a whole lot of money either. The republicans in charge of Wyoming are more business friendly than ideologues like in Kansas.

Neither of us smoke but we're not bar hounds anyway. Night life isn't really our thing. The restaurants thing annoy her more than me, I am fine with never eating out (and yes, I do at least half the cooking). It's funny, our friends who moved back to the Kalispell area say the thing they miss most about KC is the restaurants. Think about that for a second. It may say something about our friends but it may also say something about KC.

I looked into the site you provided and checked out the profiles on wyofile. It seems that the big thing is job opportunity. Between the two of us, I'm the one who limits the choices available if I were to stay in my field. Hence why I was keen on this opportunity. Some of the people complain about the social politics though I've found that most places are overblown when it comes to that, I like in Kansas for goodness sake. Unless you live in a one horse town, nobody will bother you if you don't bother them.

I would have loved Missoula, I've been there and love the city. Her dad actually lives on Flathead but there are no jobs worth going for. Honestly, I figured Casper was a compromise. I'm an all around type when it comes to outdoor activities, but trust me, it's probably all an improvement over what I've got at the moment. But I figured driving 2-3 hours to find a decent hiking trail every once in a while beats having to drive a day just to get there.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2015, 11:35:38 AM »
I think the other posters have put their fingers on it. This is not about how good or bad Wyoming objectively is...it's about the fact that she doesn't want to move. I have moved around my whole life and hate it every time (just the misery of getting all the stuff from one place to another, and dealing with all the paperwork etc) and there's no fear component for me, so I can see how it could be a huge barrier for someone who has less experience.

My suggestion would be to drop Wyoming for now and explore the bigger question of whether she would ever be willing to move (and the fact that you are not entirely happy where you are). Where might a compromise fall?

There is another thread going right now about a poster whose husband did a bit of a bait-and-switch on having children, which she is now trying to figure out. A number of posters have pointed out that if she talks him into it against his better judgment, every time something goes wrong, or the children are difficult, etc, he will be blaming her for making him do it. I would be concerned the same would happen here. Moving is incredibly stressful and hard even if you don't mind the overall idea--if your wife goes into it with a bad attitude you're sunk.

And that's exactly what I want to have with our discussion.
I've pointed out to her what I see as the pros and cons of both places. When it comes to her points I want to have the dialogue and talk through them. Moving sucks, on that I agree. It would be even worse with kids.

I figured Casper was the compromise. She had pointed it out to me last month.

I warn her about the path I see this state taking when it comes to public employees and I will have a very hard time not holding it against her if things happen as I think they will. I would rather stay ahead of negative changes to our lives especially within the realm of what we can control. I would rather not be trying to find a new place to move after she loses her job or when it becomes so unbearable that we settle on a place/position for me just to get her out of there.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2015, 12:25:00 PM »
You mentioned you are trying to get pregnant. Right now it seems like she is worried about her job and her mom which are valid concerns. However, she is trying to get pregnant and her thinking may transition a lot as she becomes a new mom. It may be that in time, these concerns will no longer be a priority and she may become more focused on issues like deciding to be a SAHM, giving her child siblings, and saving for college. What are her long term plans and goals for her future family? Do those plans work better in Wyoming or in Kansas?

Things to consider:

If she decides she wants to be a SAHM, does one location make this switch easier?
Is it a priority for you to have your kids see many of their extended family members throughout the year, or is it more important for them to see grandma more often?
What kind of lifestyle do you envision for your family (city, suburban, rural, farm, outdoorsy)?
If you want to pay for college, does one location increase the likelihood of achieving this goal?



Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2015, 01:20:10 PM »
You mentioned you are trying to get pregnant. Right now it seems like she is worried about her job and her mom which are valid concerns. However, she is trying to get pregnant and her thinking may transition a lot as she becomes a new mom. It may be that in time, these concerns will no longer be a priority and she may become more focused on issues like deciding to be a SAHM, giving her child siblings, and saving for college. What are her long term plans and goals for her future family? Do those plans work better in Wyoming or in Kansas?

Things to consider:

If she decides she wants to be a SAHM, does one location make this switch easier?
Is it a priority for you to have your kids see many of their extended family members throughout the year, or is it more important for them to see grandma more often?
What kind of lifestyle do you envision for your family (city, suburban, rural, farm, outdoorsy)?
If you want to pay for college, does one location increase the likelihood of achieving this goal?

All good points. And I think you are right. I understand the importance of having our mothers (and fathers) around for the first kid especially. However, I also understand not wanting to be smothered by them. My best mans wife and kid spend EVERY Sunday at her parents house. I could not deal with that and luckily, neither could my wife.

We've discussed her being a SAHM and right now it probably couldn't work comfortably. It could work better in Wyoming though. I want her to pay off her school debt (I have none) before we go the SAHM route or at least quite a bit of it. That being said, I don't want to make it a condition of moving, I don't want her to think I only let stay at home by being a prisoner of the place I would like to be.
To me, having grandparents within a day (and her mom and my parents are only 2 hours from each other so a visit to one would be a visit to both) is adequate. My moms parents lived across the ocean, my dads mom was 3 hours, 8 hours, or 20 hours away depending on where I was at the time. But we visited dads side of the family once a year until we moved to Kansas and I got to visit moms side four times so far. Not to mention all the times the grandparents visited us, roughly once per year.

We plan to save some for college (and not let them know about it until after their freshman year of college) but I am under no illusion that it will be enough to get a bachelors. However, with good grades it does seem like Wyoming offers a full ride. Maybe I need to put it that way since she has so much debt, wouldn't she like to leave our kids better off after college?

Looks like two points I could bring up to her and let her ponder on it for a few days.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2015, 02:23:44 PM »
Not that I necessarily recommend this but....

My parents married in 1964 and 9 days later my dad shipped out with the Navy.  His active duty years (Vietnam) lasted for the next decade and took them all over the US.  There are 3 of us kids:  1967, Ohio; 1968, Georgia; 1970, California. 

In 1975 as my dad's decision whether to stay in the Navy was pending and after about 5 years of San Diego's dry, brown climate my mother basically said "I've had it.  I miss Virginia.  I miss seeing four seasons.  The kids and I are moving and I hope you come too."

He heard that!  He immediately started job hunting in the Mid-Atlantic region.  We just celebrated their 50th anniversary, in Big Bear, California where we'd gone for Christmas in 1975.

YMMV.  ;))

MrMoneyMaxwell

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2015, 03:45:58 PM »
Guitarist,

I'm not sure if this will help your situation, but moving from Ohio to Colorado was the best life decision I've ever made. I've lived in your neck of the woods (I was stationed near KC for 2 years) and it's fucking miserable. The only bright spot was the bbq and that certainly wasn't worth suffering through that crap every single day.

My SO and I moved out to Colorado about 4 months ago. We both lucked out in the job hunt and had employment lined up in the same week. I've wanted to live in this area of the US for my entire life (I grew up in Chicago, moved to Ohio, lived overseas, suffered through MO and moved back to Ohio). We are up in the mountains or out in the woods EVERY WEEKEND. And.... IT'S ONLY 30 MINUTES AWAY most of the time. We can just drive west and we'll be in the back country. It's spectacular.

How old are her parents? Do they take care of their own home? If they are old enough, there's probably a place nearby your new home in Wyoming that they could settle. OR, just get a bigger house in Wyoming (so anti-MMM). The property/land taxes are very low there.

Additionally, and I know this is not what new parents want to hear. But the GI Bill pays for the highest tuition state school in every state. If you look at the list of top engineering schools, or top computer science, etc., it's mostly state schools. Additionally, there is a veterans preference. I was able to claim residency in my school's state, get the in-state tuition rate and had the whole thing paid for after being in the USAF for 4 years of non-dangerous/non-combative work. So that is honestly, a viable option.

bwall

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2015, 10:44:52 PM »
It sounds like you are trying to use logic to defeat an emotion-based argument. Destined to fail every time.

You have to find out what is driving the emotions and then address the emotions.

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2015, 07:33:04 AM »
Haven't read the thread as time to go to work now, but Wyoming is a stunningly beautiful place. Hello: Yellowstone? Can you book a few days at the Lodge in Yellowstone and show her the hot pools and the wildlife and the sheer magnitude of it?

They have planes to go see her mom. At which time she can renew her love of Kansas.

But agree that her position is emotion-based and logic won't cut it. Sorry!

If it weren't for the music (I can't stand "oh my darlin' Clementine" tunes blaring out at the gas station or supermarket) I would live there myself.

ender

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2015, 09:40:27 AM »
When I read your reasons, I think you guys are miscommunicating.

I don't think your wife is giving you the reasons why she feels the way she does. I suspect her comments are based on more deep rooted issues she has with moving.

For example, you say moving satisfies checkboxes. Ok, great. But what if her main emotional objections to moving are not checkboxes?

Brainstorming wildly, without knowing either of you, some possible things which would be very discouraging reasons to move:

  • Changing established social circles. Does she have a lot of friendships in the area? Starting over is a lot of work, especially if you've been living there a while
  • Maybe fear of moving. She loves Kansas, is this because she's lived there her entire life? Or a lot of the recent past years? Maybe there is fear of moving present (which often will manifest itself in "silly" reasons as we try to justify things). Familiarity is often nostalgic and endearing.
  • People generally dislike change. If she is content where you guys are, why should she want to move? Nearly all the reasons you list for moving are more "this state might be going to pieces! head for the hills!" which is almost like you are afraid of what could happen in KS if you don't flee.
  • Is the grass really greener? Perhaps she doesn't see any reason why the risks/uncertainties are worth the added benefit.
  • Stronger family ties. perhaps her relationship with her mother matters a lot more than you are giving it credit for, out of principle.

Also it's not super surprising that as you guys are trying to have a baby (which is probably one of the more stressful times of someone's life) that she'd want some stability. Uprooting all her life and then adding a baby into it? I can understand her reluctance to move purely for a nominal amount of income (and your fears about what might happen in KS).

ender

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2015, 09:52:44 AM »

I want her to pay off her school debt (I have none) before we go the SAHM route or at least quite a bit of it. That being said, I don't want to make it a condition of moving, I don't want her to think I only let stay at home by being a prisoner of the place I would like to be.
....
Maybe I need to put it that way since she has so much debt, wouldn't she like to leave our kids better off after college?

Looks like two points I could bring up to her and let her ponder on it for a few days.


Also, this is just hopefully very poorly worded, but I want to point out that if your approach to this move is like this, you are framing it wrong. Saying "I want her to" vs "how can we as a couple?" is a way to make people defensive.

As a couple, you want to frame things in how they accomplish your best interests as a couple - not me vs you.

"I want her to pay off her school debt" is a pretty immature perspective if you really mean that. If you really feel this way, and communicate it to her, not from an "our debt" perspective but a "you need to pay off your debt to becoming a SAHM" then don't complain about her not wanting to move.  It seems clear you are not interested in approaching major marital issues as a couple, why should she feel any need to justify why she doesn't want to move?

It pretty much reads like you don't care too much about her interests at all and are more interested in her proving herself by paying off her debt.

And seriously, if you tell her what you are just articulated - "you have a lot of debt [that I won't help pay off, it's your responsibility], don't you care about our children? You already hurt them with debt [that I won't help pay off] and not moving to Casper makes our children suffer even more because of you!" she should rightly tell you to go to hell.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2015, 10:06:05 AM »
Following because everyone is bringing up great points. I don't have much to add except- don't make this adversarial. Make it a choice you're making together. You're not trying to convince her, because if you move and she is miserable, that will be miserable for you too. Maybe she is being a good self-advocate. Try to work with her to see if this is really right for you. From this perspective, you will also avoid pride clouding either of your judgements. Remember, you're on the same team. So sit down, say, "I don't have any idea if this is right for us but I would like your help seeing if it is" and see if she would be interested on going on a FUN Wyoming trip. Not looking at houses (unless that's your jam), but going exploring and meeting people and seeing awesome things- I love the Bridger-Teton area, and of course Yellowstone.

Keep the pride out of it for both of you and see how you guys feel. Where you live isn't all about check boxes- it's also about that feeling deep in your gut.

tj

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2015, 03:14:45 PM »

I want her to pay off her school debt (I have none) before we go the SAHM route or at least quite a bit of it. That being said, I don't want to make it a condition of moving, I don't want her to think I only let stay at home by being a prisoner of the place I would like to be.
....
Maybe I need to put it that way since she has so much debt, wouldn't she like to leave our kids better off after college?

Looks like two points I could bring up to her and let her ponder on it for a few days.


Also, this is just hopefully very poorly worded, but I want to point out that if your approach to this move is like this, you are framing it wrong. Saying "I want her to" vs "how can we as a couple?" is a way to make people defensive.

As a couple, you want to frame things in how they accomplish your best interests as a couple - not me vs you.

"I want her to pay off her school debt" is a pretty immature perspective if you really mean that. If you really feel this way, and communicate it to her, not from an "our debt" perspective but a "you need to pay off your debt to becoming a SAHM" then don't complain about her not wanting to move.  It seems clear you are not interested in approaching major marital issues as a couple, why should she feel any need to justify why she doesn't want to move?

It pretty much reads like you don't care too much about her interests at all and are more interested in her proving herself by paying off her debt.

And seriously, if you tell her what you are just articulated - "you have a lot of debt [that I won't help pay off, it's your responsibility], don't you care about our children? You already hurt them with debt [that I won't help pay off] and not moving to Casper makes our children suffer even more because of you!" she should rightly tell you to go to hell.

Indeed, you accepted the debt when you merged, so you shouldn't really complain about it now.

Fuman

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2015, 03:41:19 PM »
I've been through Wyoming many times.  I have to agree with your wife - I wouldn't want to live there either.  There just ain't much "there" there.  Probably the only place lower on the list of places I'd ever live is...Kansas.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2015, 11:02:05 AM »

I want her to pay off her school debt (I have none) before we go the SAHM route or at least quite a bit of it. That being said, I don't want to make it a condition of moving, I don't want her to think I only let stay at home by being a prisoner of the place I would like to be.
....
Maybe I need to put it that way since she has so much debt, wouldn't she like to leave our kids better off after college?

Looks like two points I could bring up to her and let her ponder on it for a few days.


Also, this is just hopefully very poorly worded, but I want to point out that if your approach to this move is like this, you are framing it wrong. Saying "I want her to" vs "how can we as a couple?" is a way to make people defensive.

As a couple, you want to frame things in how they accomplish your best interests as a couple - not me vs you.

"I want her to pay off her school debt" is a pretty immature perspective if you really mean that. If you really feel this way, and communicate it to her, not from an "our debt" perspective but a "you need to pay off your debt to becoming a SAHM" then don't complain about her not wanting to move.  It seems clear you are not interested in approaching major marital issues as a couple, why should she feel any need to justify why she doesn't want to move?

It pretty much reads like you don't care too much about her interests at all and are more interested in her proving herself by paying off her debt.

And seriously, if you tell her what you are just articulated - "you have a lot of debt [that I won't help pay off, it's your responsibility], don't you care about our children? You already hurt them with debt [that I won't help pay off] and not moving to Casper makes our children suffer even more because of you!" she should rightly tell you to go to hell.

Perhaps I didn't bring out the entirety of my thought process behind the whole loan situation.
The majority of her loans came before we met, and the amount owed is sizable. For a person getting an education degree from a state university in Kansas, it's pretty crazy. Nothing that will keep us from reaching a comfortable retirement or anything but definitely more than I thought reasonable. Her parents aren't exactly the best role models when it comes to saving/money so it's taken some time for her to come around to the idea of investing and limiting debt, she still doesn't like the idea of investing knowing that she could lose money on any given day. But we've discussed it and she's realizing the need, importance, and how to not worry about the day-to-day side of investing.
Now, she has made it clear that she has no desire to become a principal or get into administration, her place in life is as a teacher and that is what makes her happy. I am behind that decision 100% and I would never ask her to sacrifice it just to make more money. However, that fun she had before she met me cost money and the check is coming due. I am more than willing to help, she is my wife and we will face these things together. But just as I will help her with it, if she has a desire to become a stay at home mom then I would not be comfortable until I am making more money. There's the give and take.

Now, when it comes to the whole kids college thing, that's just an idea that she can relate to. She hates being in debt and has figured out her mom did some less than moral things that ended up screwing her out of some help through college. My only point on that is wouldn't she rather be able to offer our kids the ability to go to a juco or university for next to nothing especially with the way post-secondary costs have gone up over the last couple decades. It's not a guilt thing, I am not going to live in squalor to prove a point, but the fact of the matter is money affects decisions and that right there is a clear cut one.

So I'm not sure in what way I made it seem I would be threatening our children's future over her decision but I didn't. I guess it was poorly worded.

Any who, to wrap this up, for the moment we'll see what happens after the kids come. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.
Probably number one is, logic can't face emotion (and isn't a bitch that logic never wins?).

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2015, 11:22:11 AM »
I've been through Wyoming many times.  I have to agree with your wife - I wouldn't want to live there either.  There just ain't much "there" there.  Probably the only place lower on the list of places I'd ever live is...Kansas.

LOL.

Now you understand my predicament. She's only lived in Kansas and North Dakota.
I've lived in 4 states and another country.
Montana would be my #1 place but between it being 1 day from all our parents and she said she liked it when we went through, I thought Wyoming was a decent compromise.

And trust me, Wyoming has quite a bit more natural beauty to offer. Head over to google maps, you may find one or two other states with less green (national/state parks) showing than Kansas. I see Iowa and possibly Nebraska.
We can do desolate. Casper isn't desolate. Plus, she's the one pining for a small town in western Kansas. Seeing as how engineering jobs are few and far between out there, I figured a small town in a similar setting, just closer to the mountains, would be pleasing.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2015, 11:46:13 AM »
When I read your reasons, I think you guys are miscommunicating.

I don't think your wife is giving you the reasons why she feels the way she does. I suspect her comments are based on more deep rooted issues she has with moving.

For example, you say moving satisfies checkboxes. Ok, great. But what if her main emotional objections to moving are not checkboxes?

Brainstorming wildly, without knowing either of you, some possible things which would be very discouraging reasons to move:

  • Changing established social circles. Does she have a lot of friendships in the area? Starting over is a lot of work, especially if you've been living there a while
  • Maybe fear of moving. She loves Kansas, is this because she's lived there her entire life? Or a lot of the recent past years? Maybe there is fear of moving present (which often will manifest itself in "silly" reasons as we try to justify things). Familiarity is often nostalgic and endearing.
  • People generally dislike change. If she is content where you guys are, why should she want to move? Nearly all the reasons you list for moving are more "this state might be going to pieces! head for the hills!" which is almost like you are afraid of what could happen in KS if you don't flee.
  • Is the grass really greener? Perhaps she doesn't see any reason why the risks/uncertainties are worth the added benefit.
  • Stronger family ties. perhaps her relationship with her mother matters a lot more than you are giving it credit for, out of principle.

Also it's not super surprising that as you guys are trying to have a baby (which is probably one of the more stressful times of someone's life) that she'd want some stability. Uprooting all her life and then adding a baby into it? I can understand her reluctance to move purely for a nominal amount of income (and your fears about what might happen in KS).

To follow up on Ender's point. I would back way out to the 10,000 foot view. There is a bigger life philosophical question here. What kind of life do you want to live together as a couple?

Here are some questions that should be answered:
- Would your wife ever consider moving from Kansas in her lifetime? Clearly the answer for you, is yes. You've shown plenty of willingness to move around.
- If she would move, what would make it worthwhile to her? Your criteria seems well-established: better pay and more outdoor activities. Sounds good to me. Does it sound good to her?

I would approach the conversation from an abstract standpoint. Leave the concrete move to WY on the sidelines. The specificity may be causing resistance. When you say you are getting "no response" this probably is a sign she has defensive walls up. Back way off of this topic.

Instead, talk about big life plans. Dream a little together. Maybe take a road trip and go places you both want to see (now is a great time before a baby). Ask thought-provoking, non-confrontational questions and then just listen. Get her to ramble about life. This should give you some clues.

AZDude

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2015, 11:54:11 AM »
I can tell you from my own experience that some people it doesn't matter if somewhere else is better, they just hate change and want to enjoy the familiar surroundings, no matter how dreadful they might be. They want life to be easy, not to be challenging. Good luck in convincing her.


abiteveryday

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2015, 04:24:21 PM »
Interesting to come back to this thread.   Since my first post in it, I've applied for a job...  in Wyoming.    Not in Casper, I'm not taking your job.   If it gets to the point of an offer I don't really know how that will go, but until there is an offer I'm sure enjoying looking at the outdoor opportunities there.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 07:12:28 PM »
Interesting to come back to this thread.   Since my first post in it, I've applied for a job...  in Wyoming.    Not in Casper, I'm not taking your job.   If it gets to the point of an offer I don't really know how that will go, but until there is an offer I'm sure enjoying looking at the outdoor opportunities there.

Rub it in ya jerk.

Just kidding, good luck!
And make sure let me know of your experience if the offer comes in and you accept!

Jakejake

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2015, 08:53:59 PM »
I read through this, and one thing I didn't see much mention of is how she feels about the school where she is teaching. I'm a teacher, and I love my school and wouldn't consider transferring to a different one. The school culture is unique, and I've heard soooooo many horror stories about working at other schools. It's possible she doesn't want to leave her job for reasons other than vesting and retirement benefits. Job satisfaction is a HUGE factor, and I don't think it's easy to find that as a teacher.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2015, 06:05:08 AM »
For the most part she loves the school.
The principal is nice but sometimes doesn't back her teachers and is known to play favorites. Last year she had an extremely horrible parent. Bad enough that the district stepped in because this woman was threatening lawsuits for no good reason and I could see my wife having a case for a harassment suit, especially if she actually tried to sue the school/district /teachers. She also has one other coworker who undermines everyone and happens (happened) to be one of the favorites but I believe a sort of intervention was had at the end of last year and it got better.

She loves the kids though and to be honest, other than the crazy mom, she's probably dealing with about as bad of stuff as most professional working people.

When I first mentioned it she said she wouldn't move until the school year was over. I would be fine with that, it would give us time to sell the house, she could be earning the new teaching license, then look for positions, while I would live cheaply figuring out where we should settle. But that was the idea before I found out it went deeper than that.

ender

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2015, 06:08:30 AM »
Perhaps I didn't bring out the entirety of my thought process behind the whole loan situation.
The majority of her loans came before we met, and the amount owed is sizable. For a person getting an education degree from a state university in Kansas, it's pretty crazy. Nothing that will keep us from reaching a comfortable retirement or anything but definitely more than I thought reasonable. Her parents aren't exactly the best role models when it comes to saving/money so it's taken some time for her to come around to the idea of investing and limiting debt, she still doesn't like the idea of investing knowing that she could lose money on any given day. But we've discussed it and she's realizing the need, importance, and how to not worry about the day-to-day side of investing.
Now, she has made it clear that she has no desire to become a principal or get into administration, her place in life is as a teacher and that is what makes her happy. I am behind that decision 100% and I would never ask her to sacrifice it just to make more money. However, that fun she had before she met me cost money and the check is coming due. I am more than willing to help, she is my wife and we will face these things together. But just as I will help her with it, if she has a desire to become a stay at home mom then I would not be comfortable until I am making more money. There's the give and take.

Now, when it comes to the whole kids college thing, that's just an idea that she can relate to. She hates being in debt and has figured out her mom did some less than moral things that ended up screwing her out of some help through college. My only point on that is wouldn't she rather be able to offer our kids the ability to go to a juco or university for next to nothing especially with the way post-secondary costs have gone up over the last couple decades. It's not a guilt thing, I am not going to live in squalor to prove a point, but the fact of the matter is money affects decisions and that right there is a clear cut one.

So I'm not sure in what way I made it seem I would be threatening our children's future over her decision but I didn't. I guess it was poorly worded.

Any who, to wrap this up, for the moment we'll see what happens after the kids come. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.
Probably number one is, logic can't face emotion (and isn't a bitch that logic never wins?).

This still feels like a "me vs her" and not a "how can we find the best solution to our problems?" attitude, c'est la vie.

jwright

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2015, 08:08:14 AM »
Perhaps I didn't bring out the entirety of my thought process behind the whole loan situation.
The majority of her loans came before we met, and the amount owed is sizable. For a person getting an education degree from a state university in Kansas, it's pretty crazy. Nothing that will keep us from reaching a comfortable retirement or anything but definitely more than I thought reasonable. Her parents aren't exactly the best role models when it comes to saving/money so it's taken some time for her to come around to the idea of investing and limiting debt, she still doesn't like the idea of investing knowing that she could lose money on any given day. But we've discussed it and she's realizing the need, importance, and how to not worry about the day-to-day side of investing.
Now, she has made it clear that she has no desire to become a principal or get into administration, her place in life is as a teacher and that is what makes her happy. I am behind that decision 100% and I would never ask her to sacrifice it just to make more money. However, that fun she had before she met me cost money and the check is coming due. I am more than willing to help, she is my wife and we will face these things together. But just as I will help her with it, if she has a desire to become a stay at home mom then I would not be comfortable until I am making more money. There's the give and take.

Now, when it comes to the whole kids college thing, that's just an idea that she can relate to. She hates being in debt and has figured out her mom did some less than moral things that ended up screwing her out of some help through college. My only point on that is wouldn't she rather be able to offer our kids the ability to go to a juco or university for next to nothing especially with the way post-secondary costs have gone up over the last couple decades. It's not a guilt thing, I am not going to live in squalor to prove a point, but the fact of the matter is money affects decisions and that right there is a clear cut one.

So I'm not sure in what way I made it seem I would be threatening our children's future over her decision but I didn't. I guess it was poorly worded.

Any who, to wrap this up, for the moment we'll see what happens after the kids come. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.
Probably number one is, logic can't face emotion (and isn't a bitch that logic never wins?).

This still feels like a "me vs her" and not a "how can we find the best solution to our problems?" attitude, c'est la vie.

Seconded. This is weirdly adversarial. If you're married, you're a team.

Third.  I know you can't read tone on the internet, but it comes off like you are angry that you can't control your wife's feelings.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2015, 10:03:46 AM »
How does it come across that way?

I bring up a better paying job in a place she mentioned she liked (as opposed to the location I would choose were it 100% up to me), researched what it took for her to settle in professionally, compared pay for her there to where we are now, mention that it will help get our debt (does it somehow help if I refuse to acknowledge that she accrued most of it before we met?) down faster, mention that it will offer our kids more opportunities (this wasn't an either/or in terms of the kids being happy or well off, just stating a fact), and all I want is a discussion about where exactly the hold up is.
I'm not pressuring her into anything, I still haven't, whether it be this or other decisions in life.

I see that I had an idea, explained how it would help our situation and she disagreed or at least didn't think it was worth the potential negatives of the move. So where is the me v her attitude?

Pigeon

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2015, 10:25:01 AM »
It sure sounds like you are trying to pressure her into it.

I have moved someplace I didn't want to move for a much bigger jump in income than 20%.  It took five extremely long and miserable years to get out, and I would never make that mistake again.

Frugal D

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2015, 10:26:09 AM »
I'm pretty much stuck in Seattle for the same reason.     I like Seattle, I have friends here and it has a lot to offer.    But DAMN is it expensive.    We could relocate to basically anywhere in the country but SF, NYC, or Honolulu and come out ahead.    But she's been here her whole life, and just can't imagine leaving.    Even in abstract, she says she would want to keep our house here as a rental "so we still have it when we moved back".      Meanwhile I look at jobs and real estate in Kalispell, and resign myself to not retiring for an extra ten years because it will never happen.

Good luck ever getting a Seattleite to move. :)

ColoradoEng

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2015, 10:30:39 AM »
I think I could give some good insight because I'm originally from Wyoming and moved to KC where I met my wife and convinced her to move to Denver with me for a job opportunity in engineering.

Wyoming is a big change from KC.  It's freezing cold and windy in the winter (for example it snowed there last night), and although I have never lived in Casper the people I know from there don't speak too highly about it.  I know a lot of jobs are there and the pay is good but the lifestyle isn't the best in my opinion.  You will have to drive a little bit further for the outdoors you would want.  I will say the scholarship opportunities for the University of Wyoming are awesome, you get a full ride with decent grades and ACT scores.  I graduated from there in engineering without debt.

In terms of you convincing her to move, your posts make it sound that you are dismissing her feelings on it through a higher paying job, reducing debt, and a better opportunity for kids.  The reducing "her" (it's yours too, you married her) debt is a slap in the face if you bring up that it is all her fault.  You knew about it and still married her, the time to complain about her debt to her is long past.  How would you like it if she kept bringing up your problems from the past to you?  Especially years after the fact. 

As for the kids, how will they get more opportunities? They can get full rides if they have good enough grades.  I wouldn't say the education is great there.  There is also almost no diversity or opportunity for growth outside of standard Wyoming stuff unless you and your children seek it out.  You have to drive several hours to do a lot of things.  I love Wyoming, but I wouldn't say that it would offer your kids more opportunities, just different ones.  Speaking as someone who was raised there.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2015, 10:33:50 AM »
How literally is the student loan post adversarial? By mentioning she got it before we met? By mentioning that making more money will get more of it paid off faster? Again, I'm not threatening our way of life by not taking this position (or hell, even trying for it as getting it is no gimme).

And as for pressuring, it's to a place she mentioned she'd like to move literally a month ago.

And all I wanted from her was the discussion which lead to her reasoning which lead me to mention it here. I have since heard pros and cons from this thread, I understand her concerns though I don't necessarily agree with them completely (and that may have something to do with the environments we were raised in), but I'm willing to drop it for now. It could very well be the kids explanation and it could very well be a fear of moving/change that others have mentioned in which case I will try to get her to open up about it as time goes by.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2015, 10:35:48 AM »
I want to support Guitarist a bit here. It sounds like to me his intentions are honorable and his support of his wife is praiseworthy. I think he came on here to vent and get advice. Therefore the tone is different than the one he would use in a conversation with his wife.

Guitarist, it sounds like your a direct, to-the-point person. I am too. My wife is not. Early in our relationship she perceived my directness as confrontational and argumentative. I had to learn to tone it down and she learned to value that what I say is exactly what I mean, no need to read between the lines. Perhaps this is the dynamic occurring here?

Also, my wife accrued significant student loans whereas I entered our marriage debt free. And like you, the blame can be placed largely on her parents. I actually heard her dad and mom say they would pay for all of school. They paid for half. We were stuck with the rest.

The best gift you can give your wife is to wipe this slate clean. Don't bring up past history. Just slam those payments and move on with a great life. It won't accomplish anything to ever talk about it - except create resentment.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 10:37:20 AM by PowerBroker »

abiteveryday

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2015, 10:49:56 AM »
For what it's worth, I'm not really seeing the adversarial tone.      Frustration at her reluctance to consider it I suppose, but not more.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2015, 10:59:08 AM »
I think I could give some good insight because I'm originally from Wyoming and moved to KC where I met my wife and convinced her to move to Denver with me for a job opportunity in engineering.

Wyoming is a big change from KC.  It's freezing cold and windy in the winter (for example it snowed there last night), and although I have never lived in Casper the people I know from there don't speak too highly about it.  I know a lot of jobs are there and the pay is good but the lifestyle isn't the best in my opinion.  You will have to drive a little bit further for the outdoors you would want.  I will say the scholarship opportunities for the University of Wyoming are awesome, you get a full ride with decent grades and ACT scores.  I graduated from there in engineering without debt.

In terms of you convincing her to move, your posts make it sound that you are dismissing her feelings on it through a higher paying job, reducing debt, and a better opportunity for kids.  The reducing "her" (it's yours too, you married her) debt is a slap in the face if you bring up that it is all her fault.  You knew about it and still married her, the time to complain about her debt to her is long past.  How would you like it if she kept bringing up your problems from the past to you?  Especially years after the fact. 

As for the kids, how will they get more opportunities? They can get full rides if they have good enough grades.  I wouldn't say the education is great there.  There is also almost no diversity or opportunity for growth outside of standard Wyoming stuff unless you and your children seek it out.  You have to drive several hours to do a lot of things.  I love Wyoming, but I wouldn't say that it would offer your kids more opportunities, just different ones.  Speaking as someone who was raised there.

Winter isn't the issue. She would be happy on a farm in North Dakota. She loves snow and getting to Montana around Christmas has been something she wants me to experience.

I've heard some negative things about Casper, but mostly in relation to things I wouldn't care about (ie consumerist things). I'm sure it's got negatives and positives like any place I've been to. I do see that it is further from some of the outdoor experience I would like, it's no Missoula (or similar town), but then again, I'm comparing it to where I am now.
I don't bring up that the debt is all her fault, I literally pointed out that having more money means it gets paid off quicker. I find it funny that we're trying to dance around this issue while we celebrate "punching" ourselves in the face over buying a coffee and have an entire section of this forum dedicated to laughing over consumerists and consumerism.

Opportunities for the kids? Well, I'm comparing where I live now to where I've lived before and using that to make the idea of what I would like for them to have. A day away from all grandparents (as in, an extended weekend visit is doable for any of them), closer to more natural parks/opportunities, a small-to-mid-sized town, affordable education, she's mentioned the kids in the district she teaches in are very entitled, we'd both like to avoid that. Those are the sorts of things that crossed my mind. Seeking things out is what I already deal with and other than some random bike trails that used to be railroad lines or some small reservoirs/lakes, heading to the Ozarks is about my only destination that could make for a decent nature-filled weekend.

Guitarist

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Re: Wyoming - It Just Makes Sense
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2015, 11:09:54 AM »
I want to support Guitarist a bit here. It sounds like to me his intentions are honorable and his support of his wife is praiseworthy. I think he came on here to vent and get advice. Therefore the tone is different than the one he would use in a conversation with his wife.

Guitarist, it sounds like your a direct, to-the-point person. I am too. My wife is not. Early in our relationship she perceived my directness as confrontational and argumentative. I had to learn to tone it down and she learned to value that what I say is exactly what I mean, no need to read between the lines. Perhaps this is the dynamic occurring here?

Also, my wife accrued significant student loans whereas I entered our marriage debt free. And like you, the blame can be placed largely on her parents. I actually heard her dad and mom say they would pay for all of school. They paid for half. We were stuck with the rest.

The best gift you can give your wife is to wipe this slate clean. Don't bring up past history. Just slam those payments and move on with a great life. It won't accomplish anything to ever talk about it - except create resentment.

That dynamic sounds familiar. She says I can be confrontational and I too have learned to calm it down, that I don't need to fix every problem she's bringing up, and that sometimes she just wants to vent. It's taking time to get used to it but it's slowly happening. And the same thing from her, she thinks there's something to be read within what I say when I don't hide anything.

Her mom and dad situation was in some ways better in other ways worse. I don't think her parents ever offered to pay for it all (or any for that matter) so she was never under any delusions or false security about that. Where I have the problem is mostly with her mother who decided to claim her as a dependent for the tax benefits but never turned around to use that money to help her, which is what I think it's for. I wasn't around to advocate for her at the time in that regard and nobody was letting her in on what all this debt actually means. Had I been around I would have been trying to help her figure these things out sooner and you can bet your ass I would have been having a little talk with her mother and her CPA. A woman living on her own in college paying for everything and holding a job to take care of herself is nobody's dependent. If you all want to read the resentment/adversarial tone from me in this thread, there it is.

Anywho, I agree about wiping the slate clean. We still make the payments, but this opportunity rang of things I thought we both wanted and the pay would have just helped speed things along.
I've also just let the whole topic go because I don't want her to resent the idea of moving because of this when it comes up again in the future.