Author Topic: Would You Urinate in a Cup?  (Read 55427 times)

Michael792

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #200 on: September 18, 2014, 04:26:18 PM »
Being in the military, this is a fairly regular occurrence. It's pretty sanitary, all things considered, and it helps maintain a professional workforce. Also, with this testing, you are able to ensure that workers are not making themselves less effective through the use of substances that will alter their minds while at work. While it would be nice to trust everyone, we can't always afford to do that. In short, I think it's a necessary evil for many workplaces. If you don't like it, don't work there. At the same time, realize there is no ill intent and that the process is as sanitary as can be expected.

GuitarStv

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #201 on: September 19, 2014, 12:32:33 PM »

The most bizarre thing in this debate is from those who insist on the right to enjoy the effects of THC coursing through their bloodstream don't seem to respect the right of an employer to say "not on my payroll"


Nobody has insisted that.  That's not even how drug tests work.

No employers check for THC coursing through your blood stream.  No employers even check for THC, or any actual drug.  They check for left over inert metabolites only.

I don't touch pot, but I do smoke the metabolites

Good for you.  Metabo-lites are much healthier than the higher calorie regular metabos.

Gerard

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #202 on: September 19, 2014, 05:03:24 PM »
Wow, this is a "Canada and the US are different" thing that I never really thought about. I guess most of it is down to insurance, but maybe drug-o-phobia is involved too.

I've never been tested for drugs for a job; I've never known anyone who has. The only job with drug screening at hiring that I know of is airline pilot, and even then, only for the major airlines. Random employee drug testing is illegal in Canada (well, technically not illegal, but against the Charter of Rights).


sheepstache

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #203 on: September 30, 2014, 11:23:02 PM »
God bless the internet.

Seriously.  The other active thread I'm participating in is about peanut butter.  This forum is the best.
Hmmm... Peanut butter and marijuana?? I think I see a link :-)!

It's called a firecracker.  http://www.thestonerscookbook.com/recipe/firecrackers
Ya learn something new everyday :-)! I was more thinking along the lines of peanut butter MJ brownies but firecrackers seem so much better - not that I do any drugs and no I don't even drink - my body is a temple, yadda yadda yadda... :-)!

Hahaha! I don't do drugs either but the way things are going I'm pretty sure I shouldn't even click on that link.

The question was about employer liability for outside-work acts.  In the case of that penn state coach who was sexually abusing children, I believe PSU was facing some court cases about it.  They were facing those because it seemed they were aware of the activity and looked the other way.  Everyone has the same liability, though, that has nothing to do with being an employer.  And they were liable for ignoring evidence that they were aware of, not for not pre-emptively running psychological tests on the chance the guy might be a pedophile. Nor is the NFL responsible for Ray Rice because they failed to put surveillance equipment in their players' homes to ensure there's no domestic abuse going on.  It's completely different.
The comment was more generic than an employer's strict liability.   Quite a few here are taking the position that what you do off the clock is not your employer's business and that it doesn't cost them anything.   That is categorically untrue for a number of jobs.  Mozilla,  Radium One, Penn State,  NYC public schools, A&E, Discovery Channel, Warner Brothers,  CBS, the US Military and every single bank all care about it.  Each has fired or suspended people for doing things on their own time that the employer doesn't like.  Clearly the NFL can't police the behavior of players, no one can.   But even they recognize that they can't adopt a "not my problem" position and retain any level of respectability.
The most bizarre thing in this debate is from those who insist on the right to enjoy the effects of THC coursing through their bloodstream don't seem to respect the right of an employer to say "not on my payroll"

I totally get what you're saying about its not being about legal liability but more the company's image being tarred. But as you say, that only applies to a number of jobs, not all of them. Specifically, jobs where the employee represents the company in some very public way. It sounds like you agree this wouldn't apply to every job.

Bear in mind this is a matter of culture and it changes over time. If fans cared that Ty Cobb was a wife-beating psychotic racist, they didn't think the national baseball commission had any responsibility for that. I suppose one of my issues is the feedback cycle going on. The public lays more responsibility than is reasonable on companies to keep their employees in line; companies respond by demanding more right to police the employees. As they gain ability to police behavior that further increases their liability.

What I'm trying to point out is the need for a legal basis for these rights. The grocery store is negatively affecting my bottom line by charging me money, but that doesn't give me the right to go in and take the food I want for free. Companies might lose money if their employees catch bad press, but they aren't actually guaranteed profits by the constitution.

It's important that the judicial system protects our rights against cultural trends and mob mentality. The company's rights end where the individual's begin.

If it helps, I will go ahead and say, yes, you absolutely should not be on drugs while you're at work :) I notice from other threads that you and Spartana have employers that are... a bit more involved than normal. Not being allowed to take side-gigs, background checks for security clearances, etc. That may influence your views. To be clear, I have no problem that some jobs like that exist. You had a choice whether to take them and I assume you decided the compensation was a fair trade.

My concern is that there has to be a framework that prevents us from turning into a country of company towns where the employer enforces church attendance. We can't go to the other extreme either, which some parts of the populace are clamoring for, which says that a job is a right, and other various views that, if enacted in legislature, would completely hobble businesses. I think it's an appropriate use of government to come up with nuanced compromises that will ultimately reflect our ethics.

oldfierm

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #204 on: October 03, 2014, 08:45:25 AM »
Wow, all I can say to the people on this thread is DON'T JOIN THE MILITARY!  I pee in a cup, with the bathroom stall door open, in front of a person who watches me, every two to three weeks, like clockwork.  It never even occurred to me that there would be so many people who would have some kind of moral problem with this. 

Oh and for the record, I'm a lawyer, so I've toured the drug labs.  I'm assuming the civilian labs are similar, but it's not like they are splashing around in your urine or testing for whatever floats their boat that day.  The Navy tests for the same specific drugs each time.  Little pipette (sp?) of urine, GC/MS machine, they do it again if it comes up positive for one of the preset substances. 

Maybe after all these years I'm just numb to having my "rights" taken away, but I do not see this as a big deal. 

Sofa King

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #205 on: October 03, 2014, 02:48:02 PM »
These test are SOOOOOOO easy to beat. I smoke weed ALL THE TIME and have passed these tests numerous times no problem and have ALWAYS gotten the job!!!  Just find someone who can give you their clean pee (not hard for me to do as my wife does not smoke). Put the urine in a unlubricated condom and the tie it off. Place condom under scrotum to maintain proper temp (very important) I just wear some Tighty Whities pulled up a little extra to keep it in place! Then off to the pee test!!! Even if I have to wait in waiting room, putting it under my scrotum will keep it the rite temp indefinitely! Then when called in for the test they ask you to empty your pockets and then you close the bathroom door (I forgot to mention you need a safety pin) and you take out of your sock a hidden safety pin to pierce the condom that is holding the clean piss and then pour into cup! Pour any unused urine in the toilet (i also like to pee in the toilet as well, a nurse/worker is out there listing to hear this to make sure you are really going). Then put pin back into sock and empty condom back in underpants and with 100% CONFIDENCE hand over "your" urine sample and WHALA YOU ARE NOW A 100% A DRUG FREE WORKER READY FOR YOUR FIRST DAY ON THE JOB!!!   I GUARANTEE YOU this will work every time.  The key is to practice at home a few hours before you go to the test. If you do a "dress rehearsal" a few times then you will be much calmer when you are actually doing this. Especially the first time. For women to do this it's actually even easier because they already have a warm place to hide the urine filled condom!  Good luck and enjoy life!!!  :  )

KBecks2

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #206 on: October 05, 2014, 07:11:09 AM »
I don't think it is a big deal.

chasesfish

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #207 on: October 05, 2014, 07:16:26 AM »
I'm in finance and had no problem with a drug test.  I have access to money and drug issues can lead otherwise honest people to do very destructive things when it comes to money.

That being said, I don't know if the tests are done as much now since some drugs are legal in many states.

87tweetybirds

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #208 on: October 05, 2014, 05:12:59 PM »
As a nurse I understand why it is mandatory. Someone who has a narcotic habit is a huge liability to the facility. Someone who already has an addiction would be much more likely to divert medications, as well as knowing how important good judgement and a clear head are in critical situations were I to be a patient I would want my care providers to be as clear headed as possible. On another note, we count the controlled substance drawer twice a day, and if there is ever an unexplainable discrepancy everyone who accessed that cabinet in the previous 24 hours could be suspended until after completion of urinary testing. (If you come back negative they'll pay for hours lost), so it's a big deal, and I can understand why the company would want to limit risks where possible.

sol

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #209 on: October 05, 2014, 05:23:08 PM »
we count the controlled substance drawer twice a day, and if there is ever an unexplainable discrepancy everyone who accessed that cabinet in the previous 24 hours could be suspended until after completion of urinary testing. (If you come back negative they'll pay for hours lost),

I figured most people who would steal from a controlled substances drawer were peddlers, not users.  Why risk losing access to your source by using the product yourself?

These test are SOOOOOOO easy to beat... urine in a unlubricated condom.. under scrotum... safety pin... pour into cup... practice at home... enjoy life

You can learn the most interesting things reading the internet.  This isn't exactly what I anticipated learning today when I signed on here.

sheepstache

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #210 on: October 05, 2014, 05:49:52 PM »
Maybe after all these years I'm just numb to having my "rights" taken away, but I do not see this as a big deal.

That is how it often happens, it seems.

Rural

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #211 on: October 05, 2014, 06:57:04 PM »
Maybe after all these years I'm just numb to having my "rights" taken away, but I do not see this as a big deal.

That is how it often happens, it seems.


Martin Niemöller said something to that effect, I believe.

h2ogal

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #212 on: October 05, 2014, 08:40:08 PM »
I would never force employees to take a drug test.  Its against my principles.  However, certain industries require it.  Industrial or commercial driving jobs that require a commercial drivers license.  The employer may not want to test employees but may be required to by a regulating state agency. 

dhream

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #213 on: October 06, 2014, 11:04:49 AM »
I understand Old Toyota was more concerned with their dignity, privacy, and 'Eeew' factor, and by extension, the moral rectitude of said employers.

I've worn many hats in this life. I started out busting users, then became one (a 'social' user and only after I resigned from the cops) contrary to the propaganda, drugs were a lot of fun, and way more fun than getting hammered on alcohol! But I've outgrown most of them. Now it's just prudent to abstain for a variety of reasons, frugality being one!

I also in recent years, worked in an industry that required the 'pee test' on sign-up, and they also have a neat little clause that stipulates that, in the event of an accident or incident, every employee on that shift from management down, is tested as a matter of policy, whether they were involved or not.

So I have seen it from all perspectives. I think it is a necessary procedeure in some industries, but I also think the broader 'war on drugs' is and has been, an insanely costly misstep, and global thinking needs to pivot toward preventive health, regulation, and decriminalisation, without getting into a drug debate here (pointless).

Bottom line is I am now free to make my own decisions, including living in countries where I can enjoy certain substances without harassment, but if I needed to, I would 'pee in the cup' again. Also, having not had time to read this huge thread in full, I wonder if Old Toyata went ahead with it? And are they now employed at the 'cup' place?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 11:07:24 AM by dhream »

frugalnacho

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #214 on: October 10, 2014, 08:02:41 AM »
we count the controlled substance drawer twice a day, and if there is ever an unexplainable discrepancy everyone who accessed that cabinet in the previous 24 hours could be suspended until after completion of urinary testing. (If you come back negative they'll pay for hours lost),

I figured most people who would steal from a controlled substances drawer were peddlers, not users.  Why risk losing access to your source by using the product yourself?

To get high.  Have you ever known a drug addict?

bo_knows

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #215 on: October 10, 2014, 08:05:55 AM »
I work for a government contractor. I've always had to take a drug test for a new job (along with a polygraph every 5 years).  It does make me slightly sad that I never tried things like weed in college. lol

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #216 on: October 10, 2014, 10:46:16 PM »
On average it seems like hair drug test would seem to place a rather unequal burden on women, especially considering the number of guys guys going around with shaved heads these days. If hair grows at a rate of about half an inch a month (looked it up on wikipedia no idea if it's true) passing a hair-based drug test for many women could easily require two years of clean living. Now there are certainly men with long hair and women who shave their heads, but I wonder if a case could still be made...

Actually I had a family member that worked at a company that did hair follicle testing.  You pay by the millimeter and accuracy goes down as you get to older, more damaged sections of hair.  Generally they pluck hair so they have it from below the surface of the skin.  That area may still give 3-7 days or so, depending on how deep the strands were below the surface, which prevents tampering from things like dye & bleach, as someone suggested earlier in the thread.  Plus, it's worth pointing out apparently it's very easy to tell if the hair has been chemically trashed.

Anyway, you pay by the millimeter, so they only test a section something like 25mm long, starting at the root at the employer my friend worked at.  That was enough to easily cover the last month or two and real junkies can't stay clean that long.  Recreational users aren't your problem (for the most part) so if they've been clean the last two months, that was good enough for this particular employer.

As for the baldies or shaved heads, they can use any hair.  Even if you shave your arms, legs, and *ahem* private areas, they will pluck nasal hairs if that's what's needed.  Apparently this particular employer has never had anyone show up for testing and be unable to provide a sample.  If somebody is genuinely on drugs and doesn't want anyone to know, they will just suddenly pull out of the application process when they find out it's hair follicle testing and not a pee test.

Fuzz

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Re: Would You Urinate in a Cup?
« Reply #217 on: October 11, 2014, 10:21:07 AM »
Piss in the cup. Take their money. Look for other jobs.