The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Bumfluff on April 08, 2014, 07:34:23 PM
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A very general question at this stage as we are still waiting to hear about some of the finer details but DH has a job offer on a role in Qatar. Great tax-free pay, great amount of leave, relocation package. Upsides are paying off our debt in record time and hopefully saving enough for a deposit on a house (should we wish to buy) or having a chunk to invest plus the adventure of living somewhere new (not such a novelty for us though as we have lived abroad before). Downsides include the system in Qatar which includes having to request permission from your employer to leave the country - there have been instances of people being refused emergency leave to attend the funeral of a family member for example. Also driving in Qatar is said to be terrifying which makes me anxious as we have two small children and I'd be extremely worried for their safety when we were on the road. Additionally the ex-pat lifestyle does not particularly appeal.
Just initial thoughts of course and we'd have to do A LOT more research before making the decision but the debt-reducer/new 'tache grower in me says go for it while the rest of me says no. What would you do?
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Personally, no. I won't put myself or my child in a place I feel is unsafe and I would feel unsafe there.
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Yeah, you're employer basically controls you in those countries. That in itself goes against everything MMM stands for
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I would not move to any other country personally until researching the culture and values very carefully. I don't really know anything about Qatar specifically, but as a woman, I would think once, twice, three times, and even more about moving anywhere in the Middle East. Heck, there are states here at home I wouldn't live in due to the lack of protections under the law. You wouldn't want to put your eggs in one basket and later find out "oops!, we don't do paid family leave/protection from sexual or racial discrimination/religious freedom/whatever else is important to you".
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Yeah, you're employer basically controls you in those countries. That in itself goes against everything MMM stands for
No, they control your exit visas which are basically what you need to know that you can get back in under their sponsorship. That's pretty far from controlling you. If you want to leave and quit your job, do.
I probably wouldn't do it unless it was enough to make me FI in a year or two or I was FI already and looking for something to try out. I know a guy who works in Qatar and loves it. The one fairly anti-MMM thing that some people love about Qatar is that you can get a nanny or maid incredibly cheaply that you couldn't afford in the states or Canada.
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Everyone else has pretty much given reason why not to do it from the social perspectives, so here's the car safety perspective.
It's awful (http://qataraccidents.org/). Don't do it. Are there countries where it's safer to drive than the US? Yes! Is Qatar one of them? Noooooo.
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Yeah, you're employer basically controls you in those countries. That in itself goes against everything MMM stands for
No, they control your exit visas which are basically what you need to know that you can get back in under their sponsorship. That's pretty far from controlling you. If you want to leave and quit your job, do.
Exit visas are also what you need to leave the country at all. So your employer can prevent you from leaving the country.
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I've lived/worked in the ME and know several people currently living/working in Qatar. Yes, the driving is crazy, accidents do happen fairly often because a lot of people there drive like assholes. There are a lot of social/cultural nuances to also be aware of and have to deal with. Ethnicity and nationality does play a noticeable role in the society, the Qatari's will look down on you, there is a social heirarchy to be aware of. Depending on the work and living location, it could be fine. My time over there did significantly help my financial situation, but I also don't have kids to be concerned about. Qatar isn't all that bad, lot of stuff happening in preparation for the 2022 world cup, though I'd prefer UAE.
Visas can be a pain there, depends on the sponsor and employer. If the employer and sponsor don't have a good relationship then it can be bad for the employees as they'll drag their feet in processing any visas.
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At my last job (with Big Oil), I was >||< this close to being offered an assignment (1.5-3 years) in Qatar. I also had several coworkers who had taken assignments there. I also have some really good friends (who work for my former employer) who are on assignment there right now.
Were I in your shoes, I'd be there like a SHOT. I don't know what the compensation structure is for your employer, but here's what mine offered:
1) 35% uplift, tax-assisted (!). For us, that would have *doubled* our take-home pay and quadrupled our contributions toward retirement.
2) a generous COLA, based on a very generous standard of living. Which made it very attractive for our mustachian family.
3) company-paid trips back to the states for R&R (and you could pocket that if you want)
4) company-funded relocation
My friends say that the driving is crazy there, but that they've gotten used to it. Other than that, it's not particularly unsafe, but like any country, there are cultural differences you'll need to get used to.
Had we been offered such an assignment, I would probably be looking at retirement easily by age 40.
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A friend of mine spent 2 years in Saudi and then came home and paid cash for a house. She was single and it worked really well for her. I don't know that I'd do it with kids though.
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My (female) cousin travels there for work (marine biologist). Based on what she's said regarding social issues for women, I'd never do it.
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My (female) cousin travels there for work (marine biologist). Based on what she's said regarding social issues for women, I'd never do it.
Would you mind elaborating?
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For a short (one/two-year contract) we would definitely do it -- we see life as a series of experiments. It would bump finances through the roof for a frugal family, if done strategically. Even if we had kids, we would do it. There are loads of cultural opportunities in the region, and with a fixed end-date, the challenging times are temporary.
Moving there as part of a western family unit would be a world away, experience-wise, from a single woman/woman traveling alone. Socially, etc it would be quite different, there should be some expats wives networks to join. Just stay away from negative attitudes, ie perpetual whingeing about 'the locals'.
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Here's a good article on Qatar driving:
"http://www.keithlane.com/page26.htm (http://www.keithlane.com/page26.htm)"
Drive with extra caution or take the bus and you'll probably be fine.
Advice about being female in a Middle Eastern country is good advice. Don't assume you or your husband can act there the way you do here. Learn the local customs and respect them in public. Period.
That's good advice for any foreign country you go to, by the way.
As long as you can pack up and leave the country when you damn well feel like it, I think it could be a great adventure.
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Thanks for all your responses, you have highlighted some of my own concerns. We very much believe in a "when in Rome" philosophy and have lived in three different countries so understand cultural nuances. I have to say though that the racial/cultural hierarchy in the ME makes me very uncomfortable. During a recent visit to Dubai I was served before an Indian customer (who was in line in front of me) and my protestations were of course ignored.
The flip side is that our finances would improve out of sight and with 37 days annual leave per year we could enjoy some travel and down time. We need to find out re healthcare, superannuation and flights home. I also want to research nursery schools.
There is a lot to think about and of course I will do some serious research but I appreciate your input.
A fixed end-date may convince me to do it - I think I could manage a year or two but no more.
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During a recent visit to Dubai I was served before an Indian customer (who was in line in front of me) and my protestations were of course ignored.
Wow. I would never in a million years live in a country where this kind of behaviour/attitude is rampant, not for any amount of money. I wouldn't even visit! If it blocks out certain parts of the world for me, so be it! But that's just me.
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I think racism is still pretty rampant in some parts of the US isn't it?!
And in Australia (where I live) racism against Indigenous Australians, immigrants and so-called "boat people" or "illegal immigrants" is shocking. In fact the government is at this very moment proposing changes to the Racial Discrimination Act which will basically sanctions bigotry and hate speech. Just because racism is less obvious, doesn't mean it's any less prevalent or any less vile.
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I confess I don't know much about Qatar specifically, but in the ME I would also definitely be concerned about gender issues. I would probably accompany DH to Bahrain. Saudi Arabia? Not a snowball's chance.
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I would totally do it. Living in other cultures expands the mind like nothing else, and being paid a premium to live in another culture? What's not to like? It's easy to focus on the down side, but there's also no doubt an up side. Maybe driving is a little more hazardous, but I imagine the murder rate is considerably lower than the U.S. Maybe there's some racism — maybe it's salutary not to live in a place where the only racism is directed at people who are different from us. And who knows what foods, sights, experiences, and ideas will be amazing? I know a family who lived for two years in a country very much like Qatar, and the kids are still talking about their years there with appreciation ten years later. I would absolutely go for it.
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I think racism is still pretty rampant in some parts of the US isn't it?!
And in Australia (where I live) racism against Indigenous Australians, immigrants and so-called "boat people" or "illegal immigrants" is shocking. In fact the government is at this very moment proposing changes to the Racial Discrimination Act which will basically sanctions bigotry and hate speech. Just because racism is less obvious, doesn't mean it's any less prevalent or any less vile.
I lived in the US for uni, and certainly never experienced any racism while I was there (I'm of Asian ethnicity). I haven't experienced anything in Australia, either. I'm sure it exists in both countries (if not ALL countries), but I would definitely not say it's "rampant" in either. I'm surprised a country like Australia would even be compared to a Middle Eastern country in terms of racism/other discrimination, to be honest. They're in different leagues as far as I'm concerned!
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Go- people have done a lot harder things for a lot less than living a posh expat life on the fast lane to FI. My FIRE will take place 5to 6 years faster since due to the expat path for extreme savings. I just did my IRS form 2555 yesterday - up to 97600USD per year with no US taxes.. awesome! My old man and uncles were all born in Saudi back in the 60s- it worked out fine for them. My kids are/will be born "overseas" and their old man will be retired before they turn 10.
Good luck
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It's great that you personally haven't experienced racism, that's not a universal experience in either the US or Australia unfortunately. In my experience, Australia is the most racist country I have lived in. While my encounter in Dubai was awful (and in turn I was discriminated against when an Emirate person walked into a shop), it may not be indicative of the entire culture. I really wasn't there long enough to be able to say whether it's worse there than in Australia, my opinion was formed quickly and without any further research. As you said, you haven't been to the Middle East so I guess you can't fairly compare either.
I need to be sure that any opinions I form are based on fact and solid research otherwise I'm in danger of being (at worst) racist myself and guilty of stereotyping those in the Middle East at best.
Bookworm I wouldn't consider Saudi either, that's just a bit too hard as a woman I feel.
Thanks for your response Argyle, it could be a real adventure.
Wow pka222 that's an incredible achievement!
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I would take with a grain of salt all the advice you see here from people who have not actually lived there, particularly typical Americans who don't even hold a passport. Then I would do my own research.
Here's my advice, not having lived there (!). On a scale of places to live, I reckon Qatar is somewhere in the middle. I might hesitate to move a family to, say, Iraq or Bangladesh, based on what I know second-hand, but not Qatar. Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Dubai are all relatively stable, progressive states with large expat communities, good schools. I have certainly heard people rave about visiting and living in all those places. I have also met small-minded Americans who couldn't withstand an afternoon across the border in Mexico or a few days in Europe because they couldn't adjust. If you are not extremely flexible and open-minded, stay home and read your USA Today.
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I have friends in Dubai who are happy there and have their kids in good schools etc. and from my (so far cursory) research Qatar seems similar. If we do go it would be a short-term, end date in sight type affair, it isn't a life I would like long-term.
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Is this a temporary thing? Would you be willing/able to have DH go there alone, and you and the kids stay home? If he's making enough, perhaps he could take frequent visits back.
I wouldn't move there, but I'm also an outspoken, liberal, single woman so I don't think it would be a good fit for me personally. I WOULD consider sending my (hypothetical) husband if it would have a significant impact on our FI date and it was for a set and limited amount of time.
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Hell yes I would. The wife and I have considered moving to Duabi to teach at some point. I want to experience the world and other cultures. Good and bad. I can't understand those who are dismissing the whole country without experiencing it. Are some of the practices unfortunate? Absolutely. Is there nothing redeemable? Hell no.
I'd worry somewhat about a single woman going there (she should definitely research into the local laws and customs), but there is much less to fear - anywhere in the world - than most people make it seem.
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Personally, no. I won't put myself or my child in a place I feel is unsafe and I would feel unsafe there.
Being a woman, no way--especially once you factor in the traffic dangers and the bizarre ability of employers to control your ability to leave the country.
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It would depend on the terms, but I would absolutely consider it. If I had to commit to more than 18 months, or *maybe* 24, it would probably not be an options, but if the compensation was generous, I'd be more than game.
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Hell yes I would. The wife and I have considered moving to Duabi to teach at some point. I want to experience the world and other cultures. Good and bad. I can't understand those who are dismissing the whole country without experiencing it. Are some of the practices unfortunate? Absolutely. Is there nothing redeemable? Hell no.
I'd worry somewhat about a single woman going there (she should definitely research into the local laws and customs), but there is much less to fear - anywhere in the world - than most people make it seem.
Why would you worry somewhat about a single woman but not a married one?
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I wouldn't go, but that has a lot to do with me not being Qatari, Arab or white.
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Hell yes I would. The wife and I have considered moving to Duabi to teach at some point. I want to experience the world and other cultures. Good and bad. I can't understand those who are dismissing the whole country without experiencing it. Are some of the practices unfortunate? Absolutely. Is there nothing redeemable? Hell no.
I'd worry somewhat about a single woman going there (she should definitely research into the local laws and customs), but there is much less to fear - anywhere in the world - than most people make it seem.
Why would you worry somewhat about a single woman but not a married one?
I believe the perceptions others will have of a single woman versus a married one will lead to different treatment that might negatively affect her.
I could be wrong, and would be open to that.
And, even if that were the case, like I said, I'd just worry a bit and hope she educated herself on the issues. I wouldn't tell her not to go.
Fear is not a reason to not do something.
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For myself, nowhere in the Middle East holds any appeal though I'm sure others feel different. Like MissStache, I'd consider a temporary situation where DH went and I stayed home.
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I'm surprised at how many people would be willing to be separated from your SO.
I wouldn't take a job in a different country from my wife even if I was paid $500,000 for the year. But I guess that just falls under the "I wouldn't take a job I didn't like" category, and I wouldn't like being away from my wife.
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I absolutely would do this as a single with no kids, and am actively guiding my career in that direction. If things go well you can be working in the oil industry on a 6 weeks on 3 weeks off schedule and saving (after tax and expenses) 400k/year by your early 30s.
Even in my current high paying field, I will only be able to save 100k/year by my mid 30s.
Clearly my lifestyle would be better on a regular basis by staying at home, but with these kind of temporary (1-10 year) jobs you can only fairly compare by looking at dollars saved per year. I.E. Is working for 4 years and saving 400k better or worse than working for 1 year in the middle east, saving 400k, and taking 3 years of vacation?
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I've been in Kuwait numerous times for work and have several friends who were residents there for long periods. You've already gotten a fair summary of good and bad points. I think Dubai might be better than Kuwait as well, when you're not locked in by Iraq and Saudi Arabia, neither of which are high up on my visit list. :-)
Earlier in my career I would have gone there, for a couple of years with a defined end date. Now, I doubt it. I would pack up and go to Europe, maybe Asia, but the middle eastern deserts offer significant challenges to cycling, which is how I spend a lot of time. Doing anything in 140 degree heat other than lying down is problematic. Wave enough money in front of my face though.. and maybe.
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No way. I wouldn't go anywhere where my employer could control my ability to leave the country. I've lived in Ireland and The Netherlands, and might possibly do another stint in Europe with my kids. But I would never move to the Middle East. I like hiking and being in the woods. I would have a hard time being forced indoors because of the heat.
I have a friend who taught in Qatar. She had a rough time. At one point in her first month, a Qatari citizen had to take her kids across the border for a "visa run." She couldn't do it; it had to be a citizen. So she hired this guy she didn't really know to do it. He was somewhat related to the school where she taught, but not an actual employee. She was *panicking* for the two hours they were gone, not sure if they were really coming back. No, thanks.
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I don't know about the border run deal and what was going on there, but she did get her kids back, right?
Don't some of these worries and excuses strike you as complainypants? On another thread, people are praising a guy living in his car to pay off student loans. We think living in your car is badass, but trying out a high-paying foreign culture while living in luxury is too scary for us? Isn't that just a mite timid?
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No way. I wouldn't go anywhere where my employer could control my ability to leave the country. I've lived in Ireland and The Netherlands, and might possibly do another stint in Europe with my kids. But I would never move to the Middle East. I like hiking and being in the woods. I would have a hard time being forced indoors because of the heat.
I have a friend who taught in Qatar. She had a rough time. At one point in her first month, a Qatari citizen had to take her kids across the border for a "visa run." She couldn't do it; it had to be a citizen. So she hired this guy she didn't really know to do it. He was somewhat related to the school where she taught, but not an actual employee. She was *panicking* for the two hours they were gone, not sure if they were really coming back. No, thanks.
Someone doing something poorly isn't a reason not to do that thing. That's just spreading FUD.
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It sounds like the OP has her head on straight.
* She's lived in 'foreign' cultures before.
* She's looking at different sides of issues which may crop up
* She didn't rule it out just because it's a 'Muslim country' or the Middle East
* She'll be fine, no matter what
Btw OP, I lived in Sydney part-time for 3 years. Really enjoyed the place in many ways, but the anti-Lebanese and anti-Indian racism, amongst others, gave me pause (anti-east Asian racism was discreet in comparison). To say nothing of how the Indigenous people are treated -- however I'm from the USA, so we obviously have our terrible points on this too. I was surprised at how ok it seemed to bash aboriginal people, to just ignore them as full human beings....never seen anything quite like it, but I expect in the American south it can be like that too.
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I don't know about the border run deal and what was going on there, but she did get her kids back, right?
Don't some of these worries and excuses strike you as complainypants? On another thread, people are praising a guy living in his car to pay off student loans. We think living in your car is badass, but trying out a high-paying foreign culture while living in luxury is too scary for us? Isn't that just a mite timid?
No, it's not timid. I want to live where I *want* to live. It has nothing to do with being afraid or complaining. I make a boatload of money here. I don't need to go make $400K somewhere, because I'm doing fine right now. I don't want to live in 140 degree heat. That's not complaining, because I don't currently live in 140 degree heat. I like hiking and swimming in lakes. It's just shit I feel like doing. I'm only here for 80-odd years, so why wouldn't I indulge myself in these ways if I can do it? I'm close to my family. I spent years living in other countries, and at this point in my life, I want to live near them. We have a good time together. My kids are close to their cousins. That's not complainypants. It's making a choice that makes me very happy in life. I want to teach in NY. I dig the city. I like being near it. It's what I have chosen for myself. How can you call that complainypants?
Sometimes I think the super zealous mustachians are a very isolated bunch.
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If I was single and the money was 2-3x or more, sure I'd do it. Married, even without kids, we'd have to have a few long conversations about it. And no way I'd want to be separated. A week's business trip is bad enough.
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But the world cup is going to be there! just saying!
No way I would move my family there!
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Wow, lots of negative responses here. To the OP, I spent my formative years (ages 11-14) living in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. I am so grateful to my parents for giving me that experience. In fact, my DH and I have had discussions about returning to the ME as I'd love for my children to have the same experience.
I gained a better understanding of different cultures, got to travel the world (30+ countries), and grew to be a strong, independent woman. Do I contribute that in part to living in the ME? Absolutely.
There's a lot of fearmongering going on in this thread. We traveled regularly and extensively and, to my knowledge, NEVER had issues with being allowed to leave the country. And Qatar is less strict than Saudi, as I understand it. The Saudis drive like maniacs, too. Since women can't drive in Saudi, part of my dad's package was a driver who took my mom, my brother and I wherever we needed to go when my dad was at work.
Speaking of my dad being at work -- the beneficial comp package and tax structure allowed my parents to save a shit ton of money. Enough such that my parents gifted me a fully paid for college education (except for books and half of my sorority expenses, which I had to pay for) and a wedding. Before the Saudi relocation, my parents were living on a modest income and not able to save significantly. Saudi kickstarted their ability to save.
I'd move back there in a heart beat. Was it scary at first? Sure. Stepping off an airplane and seeing dudes with machine guns everywhere was a tad intimidating. But you get used to it. I never felt afraid for my safety.
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To help with finances, maybe.
For the experience, yep. It'd be fun as hell as long as you understand the culture minimally and do the normal stay safe advice while being overseas.
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Wow, I can't believe all the negative comments! My advice to you: YES, GO, ABSOLUTELY! I have lived in Doha and Dubai and loved both places. I don't think the crazy driving is such a big concern really, I think this is blown way out of proportion. There is no need to be afraid for your safety, just use common sense and drive a tad more carefully and you will be fine. The money you can make there just does not compare to whatever you could make in the US or Europe. If your kids are school age, make sure your employer maybe covers their education as well. They would go to an int'l school and would love it I am sure as there will be kids from all over the world. Also on the visa thing, this is a bit exaggerated here too, of course you can find some stories on the internet about people who weren't allowed to leave or whatever, but sorry, I know so many people there, have tons of friends there and travel to that region of the world a lot and 99.999% of people never face such issues at all, so please don't let some random internet story discourage you....every country has scary immigration/deportation stories...uhmm...the US too if I may say so! Yes, of course these countries have their own culture (as every country does) but as long as you don't do anything strangely outrageous (and why would you?) you will be perfectly fine and enjoy yourself greatly.
Personally, I would move there in a heartbeat, with kids as well. Actually, especially with kids, you can get maids too if you like and live a really grand life for very little money. There are a lot of stereotypes about the Middle East in the media. Don't believe them. I have lived there and I have had a great time and would live there any day again. If you have never been, then get over there (on the amazing Qatar Airlines...welcome to awesome flying) and check it out for a week or so. Walk around, see how people treat you and you will get what I am saying. I can't emphasize enough how wrong the stereotypes that you hear in the media really are. Especially in the US I have to say, way too much over exaggeration. You could save a lot of money there and then come back. It's not like you are moving there for the rest of your live. But if you just go for 2 years, you could save a ton. People usually don't regret the things they did, only the things they didn't do.
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I don't know about the border run deal and what was going on there, but she did get her kids back, right?
Don't some of these worries and excuses strike you as complainypants? On another thread, people are praising a guy living in his car to pay off student loans. We think living in your car is badass, but trying out a high-paying foreign culture while living in luxury is too scary for us? Isn't that just a mite timid?
No, it's not timid. I want to live where I *want* to live. It has nothing to do with being afraid or complaining. I make a boatload of money here. I don't need to go make $400K somewhere, because I'm doing fine right now. I don't want to live in 140 degree heat. That's not complaining, because I don't currently live in 140 degree heat. I like hiking and swimming in lakes. It's just shit I feel like doing. I'm only here for 80-odd years, so why wouldn't I indulge myself in these ways if I can do it? I'm close to my family. I spent years living in other countries, and at this point in my life, I want to live near them. We have a good time together. My kids are close to their cousins. That's not complainypants. It's making a choice that makes me very happy in life. I want to teach in NY. I dig the city. I like being near it. It's what I have chosen for myself. How can you call that complainypants?
Sometimes I think the super zealous mustachians are a very isolated bunch.
Yes, living where you want to live is the way to do it. What most of the stuff in this thread and your friend's experience is FUD and complainypants. Basing where you want to live off of fear stemming from ignorance is different than being empowered and informed and choosing where to live.
Thanks to those who have posted some rational things in this thread in the last few posts. The Xenophobia was getting stifling.
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I'd consider it if they pay you a lot, albeit as far as I know Emirates or Oman are nicer places for westerners and with more things to do in your free time. I was in Oman on vacation recently with a female friend and we both had a good time and were treated very well. In fact local Omanis were nicer and more helpful than Indians so prevalent in the service sector.
Saudi Arabia would be one step too far for me, though. It's so restrictive and so hot that the only thing one could do is spend time in the mall or in front of TV… I have a Lebanese friend who is a Muslim too, but left a high paying job in Saudi Arabia after a year because he and his wife couldn't stand the super conservative culture there anymore.
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It's not xenophobia to point out that in Qatar "If a worker leaves his or her employer, even if fleeing abuse, the employer can report the worker as “absconding,” leading to detention"
http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/qatar
Or that "Under the provisions of Qatar’s sponsorship law, sponsors have the unilateral power to cancel workers’ residency permits, deny workers’ ability to change employers, report a worker as “absconded” to police authorities, and deny permission to leave the country."
http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2011/164233.htm
Are these reasons to never go? Of course not. But they are legitimate issues to consider
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I currently know of two women living and working in Qatar, one is married and the other is over there as a singleton. I think a huge consideration is how adaptable you and your spouse are to a new situations (children by default are usually very adaptable.) If you're both easily able to make new friends, enjoy exotic foods, tackle potential political issues and don't consider it a huge compromise to your quality of life then go for it. But if, for instance, your wife stays home with the kids and doesn't feel comfortable making new friends/taking the kids out etc, then it will be a massive emotional burden that may not be worth the additional money you could make.
I see a lot of people talking about bureaucratic issues, which are a reality when working anywhere abroad (to varying degrees of course). I lived and worked for 1.5 years in Denmark and was at the Immigration Office EVERY MONTH dealing with some stupid issue or another.
Of course all of our opinions will be skewed by personal experience and our own sense of adventure (or lack thereof) but from what my lady friends have conveyed, the Middle East can be pretty neat!
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All that is true, but in reality it's more relevant for service sector employees from developing countries. Highly paid professionals from the West tend to be treated well.
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DO IT!!!
Great for the kids, and make a ton of money to boot. If you are worried about driving, don't drive. You can pay someone very cheaply to either drive you or run your errands for you.
You can live in a great expat neighbor, meet other worldly people and have a great time. What ever they offer, ask for at least $75k more.
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I'd consider it if they pay you a lot, albeit as far as I know Emirates or Oman are nicer places for westerners and with more things to do in your free time. I was in Oman on vacation recently with a female friend and we both had a good time and were treated very well. In fact local Omanis were nicer and more helpful than Indians so prevalent in the service sector.
Saudi Arabia would be one step too far for me, though. It's so restrictive and so hot that the only thing one could do is spend time in the mall or in front of TV… I have a Lebanese friend who is a Muslim too, but left a high paying job in Saudi Arabia after a year because he and his wife couldn't stand the super conservative culture there anymore.
Emphasis added by me. This is patently false. Yes, it's hot. But there is much more to do than sit in front of the TV (which, when I was there, was only on for 6 hours a day from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m.). My mom was very busy and my parents had a very active social life with other expats. My mom was part of the International Women's Group (I have no idea what they do, but my mom was President for a term) and my parents entertained, hosted and attended dinner parties several times each month. We lived on a compound that had several pools, a tennis court, parks and a recreation center.
My family is still very good friends with people we met there. I met my BFF there (she lives in PA now). You develop very strong relationships with people there. There's tons of activities on the compounds. Family nights, ping pong and tennis tournaments, etc. For the kids there are Halloween parties, etc.
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The thing about "mall and TV only" didn't have to be taken literally, but honestly I've spoken with several people who have lived there and none of them really liked the place. Plus your description kind of fits too - it's all about other expats and activities within closed spaces accessible only to people living there.
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For the most part, living anywhere is what YOU make of it. There are people who live in Hawaii who spend most of their free time sitting in front of a TV, ditto to my hometown of Victoria B.C. with its virtually limitless supply of hikes/mountain biking/oceans etc. there are still people who choose not to go outside.
If you're the type of person who doesn't enjoy adapting to new scenarios or the challenge of some discomfort then of course you will have difficultly adjusting to life in a new culture. It is very much dependant on your personality (and that of your spouse.)
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I'm Brazilian and I am used to listen about Brazilian soccer players that go to ME countries. Thay say its good to live in Qatar and Emirates. Saudi not too much, but it's possible as well.
As a SAHM, you and your kids can live in expat neighborhoods, with people from different places of the world. Of course, not all of them enjoy it. But they can hold it because of their 6 figures paychecks.
It's good for you if you're used to stay at home, make expat friends, (not so mustachian but...) visit wonderful restaurants and malls.
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The thing about "mall and TV only" didn't have to be taken literally, but honestly I've spoken with several people who have lived there and none of them really liked the place. Plus your description kind of fits too - it's all about other expats and activities within closed spaces accessible only to people living there.
Still not buying it. I went to other compounds to visit friends all the time and had friends visit our compound. All. The. Time. You aren't stuck in your little compound 24/7. Plus, we took scuba diving classes not on the compound, played in softball leagues (kids and adult) not on the compound, etc.
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Sounds like a cool adventure to me, but my perspective is of course different as a 21 year old getting ready to graduate. I love to travel though and the money would be useful for paying off student loans.
Originally I read this and thought "Qatar?" That sounds scary. The more I read about it though, the more I found that it seems pretty safe overall. At this point I might take Qatar over Detroit.
I assume your husband would be working for a reputable employer right? If so, I'd do it.
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Fear is not a reason to not do something.
I have to disagree somewhat with this one. I think it depends A LOT on the reason behind your fear. It's there for a reason, after all. If it's just a fear of doing something new, sure, by all means try and get over it because new experiences can be awesome. Three times in my life I've dropped everything to live in another country where my first language isn't spoken, and each time it was scary, but SO worth it. I'm working on the fourth time right now!
But there's a difference between a fear because something's new and a fear for your life and safety. I am naturally risk averse, and appreciate that others aren't, but I tend not to take as many chances on things that make me genuinely afraid for my life. I have no doubt that this stops me from having some amazing experiences-- such as skydiving, or moving to the Middle East. I am absolutely comfortable with that, and accept this loss as a cost of my safety.
Good luck to anyone who thinks otherwise - it's certainly something you have to decide for yourself. I'll stay here, gladly read your adventures, and even cheer you on!
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Fear is not a reason to not do something.
I have to disagree somewhat with this one.
Give me any counter example then.
If its a rational fear, then the reasons behind it will be why you shouldn't do it, not the fear. The fear doesn't matter, and you shouldn't do that thing (because of the rationale) whether there's fear or not.
If it's irrational, then the fear isn't a reason not to do it.
I used the absolute for a reason: Fear is never a reason to not do something.
Or provide me with a counter example where you should do something but because you are afraid you should no longer do it. It may be difficult to do that thing, but you should still do it, regardless of the fear.
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Yes, I lived in Turkey for 5 years and Saudi Arabia, and had a low cost of living, high income and no taxes. That is the main reason I am FI today. You will find an expat community and have experiences with them. Something like living in Disney World and only tangentially really knowing what Florida is like. If you don't like it, you will be back in a year. If you do like it, you will stay a few years, probably have really close friends, and return to the US probably several hundred thousand dollars ahead of where you are today.
If nothing else, I suggest you listen to people who have done it, and listen to the reasons they say yes or no, and decide which reasons apply to you. Don't listen to people who haven't done it. I was really scared before I went to Turkey the first time, and had heard a lot of nonsense from people who had never been there.
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My brother and his wife/kids worked in Saudi for 7 years- I think in the early 1980's. He made good $ and they liked it. They left when their kids got older because back then once kids reached a certain age they had to go to boarding school in another country. Saudi did not want them around their teenagers. I have no idea if that is still true or not. My hubby wanted us all to go & I told him to go & send home the $. It totally did not appeal to me at all. I would talk to people who have done it and then make the best decision you can.
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My brother and his wife/kids worked in Saudi for 7 years- I think in the early 1980's. He made good $ and they liked it. They left when their kids got older because back then once kids reached a certain age they had to go to boarding school in another country. Saudi did not want them around their teenagers. I have no idea if that is still true or not. My hubby wanted us all to go & I told him to go & send home the $. It totally did not appeal to me at all. I would talk to people who have done it and then make the best decision you can.
Back then the schools went through 9th grade. Now they go through the end of high school. At least this is true of Dhahran.
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Give me any counter example then.
If its a rational fear, then the reasons behind it will be why you shouldn't do it, not the fear. The fear doesn't matter, and you shouldn't do that thing (because of the rationale) whether there's fear or not.
If it's irrational, then the fear isn't a reason not to do it.
I used the absolute for a reason: Fear is never a reason to not do something.
Or provide me with a counter example where you should do something but because you are afraid you should no longer do it. It may be difficult to do that thing, but you should still do it, regardless of the fear.
My point is that how every person feels - the amount of fear he feels, what he fears, and why he fears is - should sometimes affect what he should do.
The thought of skydiving scares me. Is it rational? You could argue either way. It doesn't really matter. But the point is, I'm terrified of it, of something going wrong and of me dying. Sure, I could force myself to do it (or have someone force me). If I land safely and all goes well, do you really think I would suddenly change my mind and want to do it again? Maybe another person would-- but I know myself, and I know I'd likely be throwing up and wetting myself and being terrified the whole way down. Even on land I'm pretty sure I'd swear I'd NEVER do that again. And for what? A few minutes of increased adrenaline? In that case, I believe the strength of my fear would absolutely prevent me enjoying it, rendering it worthless - even though for someone else it might be wonderful.
However, if you search yourself and find the fear isn't as deep-rooted, or believe you have the personality or the motivation to get over it, then by all means go for it! Either way, I believe fear is there for a reason, and should make us stop and reevaluate things, if only for a second. I don't think all fears necessarily SHOULD be conquered just for the sake of conquering them.
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I didn't say all fears should be conquered. Or even any of them.
I'm saying fear should never be a reason to stop you from doing anything. I didn't say the converse, that fear is a reason to do something.
If there were rational reasons to skydive (gunman threatens you and family unless you skydive, no other way out of it), you should do it, regardless of the fear. If there aren't any rational reasons, fine, don't do it. But if there are rational reasons, the fear shouldn't stop you.
Fear should never stop you. (That doesn't mean it should start you, which is what you are inferring.)
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I didn't say all fears should be conquered. Or even any of them.
Except in the following case:
If there were rational reasons to skydive (gunman threatens you and family unless you skydive, no other way out of it), you should do it, regardless of the fear.
So if there are rational reasons, you should conquer your fear and do it. I would agree with that.
If there aren't any rational reasons, fine, don't do it.
This is exactly what I'm saying-- that in some cases, I let fear stop me and I don't skydive. So I agree with this too. You could argue that in this case it's the lack of a rational reason that stops me, but in fact the mere absence of a rational reason just reduces the inclination TO do it. It's really the fear that screams out at me and tells me actively not to do it.
I think it's just semantics we're discussing, because we both agree there are cases when something should be done despite the fear, and there are cases when it's not worth doing something you're afraid of. In this case, I personally wouldn't move to the Middle East even if it hastened my journey to FI, but I accept that other people's sense of adventure or risk tolerance would make it a great opportunity for them.
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I gained a better understanding of different cultures, got to travel the world (30+ countries), and grew to be a strong, independent woman. Do I contribute that in part to living in the ME? Absolutely.
I got an understanding of different cultures, visited two dozen-plus countries (and lived for years in three), without ever setting foot in the Middle East. With only one exception, the vast majority of people nixing the idea on this thread are not nixing the idea of working abroad--they're nixing the idea of living in the Middle East, especially in a country where your employer gets to decide whether you can leave or not.
There's a lot of fearmongering going on in this thread. We traveled regularly and extensively and, to my knowledge, NEVER had issues with being allowed to leave the country. And Qatar is less strict than Saudi, as I understand it.
I don't know how old you are, but the Middle East has changed A LOT in the past 30 years or so. And the fact that your parents never had issues with being allowed to leave Saudi Arabia two or three or four decades ago has nothing to do with whether people can easily leave a completely different country now.
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It sounds like the OP has her head on straight.
* She's lived in 'foreign' cultures before.
* She's looking at different sides of issues which may crop up
* She didn't rule it out just because it's a 'Muslim country' or the Middle East
* She'll be fine, no matter what
Btw OP, I lived in Sydney part-time for 3 years. Really enjoyed the place in many ways, but the anti-Lebanese and anti-Indian racism, amongst others, gave me pause (anti-east Asian racism was discreet in comparison). To say nothing of how the Indigenous people are treated -- however I'm from the USA, so we obviously have our terrible points on this too. I was surprised at how ok it seemed to bash aboriginal people, to just ignore them as full human beings....never seen anything quite like it, but I expect in the American south it can be like that too.
Thank you for the compliment. Hopefully I am getting more sensible in my old age! Your experience of racism in Australia echoes my own. Such a wonderful country in so many ways but the casual racism is shocking.
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and experiences, it really is useful. I have friends in Dubai but don't know anyone who has lived in Doha so being able to read a little of life there has been great. I should probably just conquer my fear of driving there by taking a defensive driving course.
We are both very open to new cultures and experiences and willing absolutely to respect another society's rules and habits. We make friends easily and our children are very young so I think they would settle quickly. The job is open-ended at this stage but we'd be looking at two years max I think. Who knows though, we may love it.
We definitely wouldn't go down the husband in Doha, us here route as we want to be together (even if it adds 20 years to our FI goal!) Another move (to the UK) is also possible so we have a couple of options at the moment. The UK move is about family and culture and access to Europe rather than savings but just as important in my humble opinion. Lots to think about!
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I'm saying fear should never be a reason to stop you from doing anything. ... Fear should never stop you.
Fear stopped me from hitchhiking by myself when I was a cute 20-year-old woman. Are you saying I should have hitchhiked alone anyway? I will tell that to my friend who was raped while hitchhiking alone. I'm sure it will make her feel better that you think she was right not to let a perfectly reasonable fear of being raped stop her. For the record, I've been to more states and countries than she has, and I've gotten to some of them by hitchhiking--but never hitchhiking ALONE; always with a boyfriend.
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I think it's just semantics we're discussing, because we both agree there are cases when something should be done despite the fear, and there are cases when it's not worth doing something you're afraid of.
Yes.
But not because of the fear. It may not be worth doing, but the fear shouldn't be the thing stopping you.
I'm not cartwheeling to work daily, and it's not because I fear doing so - it's because I have no rational reason for doing so. If I had a rational reason to do so, I should do it. In spite of the fear. Which is the former case you say. I'm saying there are no cases of the latter - when it's not worth doing something you're afraid if there are more rational reasons to do something than not.
In this case, I personally wouldn't move to the Middle East even if it hastened my journey to FI, but I accept that other people's sense of adventure or risk tolerance would make it a great opportunity for them.
And it's fine to not move there due to not wanting to be there, liking where you are, whatever. But if you have rational reasons to move there (speed up your FI), and you had no rational reasons for not moving there (you didn't care where you lived, it wasn't actually dangerous, etc.) 'but were just afraid, then you should do it.
Fear should never stop someone from doing something.
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Here in Newfoundland, we have a lot of people who work highly-paid jobs in oil/gas or English teaching in the Middle East for a few years, and then come back to retire early. Most of them aren't what you'd call mustachian; they just earn so damn much money that they can't help saving a bunch.
Qatar seems to get better reviews than Dubai. People here who aren't sure whether they can handle a highly materialistic, competitive, ethnically stratified, car-centric, extreme-climate place sometimes ease into it gradually by first going to northern Alberta or Texas for a couple of years.
At a more personal life-style level (after I apologize to Albertans and Texans for the cheap shot), a lot of the negative feedback I hear comes from people who can't imagine restrictions on their consumption of alcohol. Again, maybe this is somewhere that mustachian types can benefit from enduring a "hardship" that's not really all that hard?
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Here in Newfoundland, we have a lot of people who work highly-paid jobs in oil/gas or English teaching in the Middle East for a few years, and then come back to retire early. Most of them aren't what you'd call mustachian; they just earn so damn much money that they can't help saving a bunch.
Is the cost of living in Newfoundland super cheap? Because teaching in the Middle East doesn't pay that much.
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Fear should never stop someone from doing something.
This is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. So if someone wants to pay me $20 to lick a flagpole in -20 degree weather, I shouldn't let fear stop me? Arebelspy, have you ever actually lived in another country? It sounds like you haven't.
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So if someone wants to pay me $20 to lick a flagpole in -20 degree weather, I shouldn't let fear stop me?
Absolutely you shouldn't let fear stop you. You should let the rational reason of your tongue getting stuck make you say no, or ask for higher compensation.
Why should it be the fear stopping you, and not the rational reasons?
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Here in Newfoundland, we have a lot of people who work highly-paid jobs in oil/gas or English teaching in the Middle East for a few years, and then come back to retire early. Most of them aren't what you'd call mustachian; they just earn so damn much money that they can't help saving a bunch.
Is the cost of living in Newfoundland super cheap? Because teaching in the Middle East doesn't pay that much.
Not in Newfoundland, but Nova Scotia (by the ferry going to NFLD). Yes, housing in this part of Canada can be super cheap, but other things such as gas, oil (mostly for home heating) and food can be expensive. But, I do think that for the most part many on the east coast live a more modest lifestyle. When people on MMM talk about their cheap car being a Honda, around here that would be one of the nicer ones. You will rarely if ever see a high end car, the highest maybe a Lincoln.
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I'm saying fear should never be a reason to stop you from doing anything. ... Fear should never stop you.
Fear stopped me from hitchhiking by myself when I was a cute 20-year-old woman. Are you saying I should have hitchhiked alone anyway? I will tell that to my friend who was raped while hitchhiking alone. I'm sure it will make her feel better that you think she was right not to let a perfectly reasonable fear of being raped stop her. For the record, I've been to more states and countries than she has, and I've gotten to some of them by hitchhiking--but never hitchhiking ALONE; always with a boyfriend.
Two different things.
I don't want to hitchhike because there is a risk I may get raped. I don't want to hitchhike because I fear being raped.
One is a possibly reasonable approach to analyze something. Weighing risks and determining for yourself which ones you are willing to accept or not.
The other is your monkey brain screaming at you. That may come off as disparaging towards monkey brains but I'm rather thankful for mine because it can do so many more useful things other than screaming at me.
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I'm saying fear should never be a reason to stop you from doing anything. ... Fear should never stop you.
Fear stopped me from hitchhiking by myself when I was a cute 20-year-old woman. Are you saying I should have hitchhiked alone anyway? I will tell that to my friend who was raped while hitchhiking alone. I'm sure it will make her feel better that you think she was right not to let a perfectly reasonable fear of being raped stop her. For the record, I've been to more states and countries than she has, and I've gotten to some of them by hitchhiking--but never hitchhiking ALONE; always with a boyfriend.
Two different things.
I don't want to hitchhike because there is a risk I may get raped. I don't want to hitchhike because I fear being raped.
One is a possibly reasonable approach to analyze something. Weighing risks and determining for yourself which ones you are willing to accept or not.
The other is your monkey brain screaming at you. That may come off as disparaging towards monkey brains but I'm rather thankful for mine because it can do so many more useful things other than screaming at me.
I missed that post, thanks for catching it match.
Yes, perhaps there are valid reasons you should not hitchhike alone. I don't disagree. Fear is not one of those reasons.
Note that you said of your friend:
I'm sure it will make her feel better that you think she was right not to let a perfectly reasonable fear of being raped stop her.
(Emphasis added.)
It is the reasons behind that "reasonable" that make it why she might not want to do so. The fear is not the reason why.
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I'd pass. I like living near my family too much.
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So if someone wants to pay me $20 to lick a flagpole in -20 degree weather, I shouldn't let fear stop me?
Absolutely you shouldn't let fear stop you. You should let the rational reason of your tongue getting stuck make you say no, or ask for higher compensation.
Why should it be the fear stopping you, and not the rational reasons?
That's just a semantic argument. You seem to be assuming that fear is never rational or never makes sense. I disagree; sometimes fear is perfectly rational. A reasonable fear is to me a valid reason not to do something. I think we agree on that basic point, so let's not split hairs over your personal definition of "fear."
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So if someone wants to pay me $20 to lick a flagpole in -20 degree weather, I shouldn't let fear stop me?
Absolutely you shouldn't let fear stop you. You should let the rational reason of your tongue getting stuck make you say no, or ask for higher compensation.
Why should it be the fear stopping you, and not the rational reasons?
That's just a semantic argument. You seem to be assuming that fear is never rational or never makes sense. I disagree; sometimes fear is perfectly rational. A reasonable fear is to me a valid reason not to do something. I think we agree on that basic point, so let's not split hairs over your personal definition of "fear."
If the fear is rational, the reasons should stop you. The fear is irrelevant. You should not do that thing whether you are afraid or not.
If the fear is irrational, you shouldn't let it stop you. Again, the fear is irrelevant.
Fear should never stop you.
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I would do it in a heartbeat. I would never be able to convince my husband.
In your situation, have you researched what it might take to hire a driver? Maybe you could negotiate it into your spouse's compensation package.
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I lived in Honduras for 2.5 years as a military contractor. It is considered very dangerious, and I don't speak Spanish and lived off-post. It worked out. I do tend to stay to myself anyway. This kind of worked against me, as the culture there has very few women out alone. So, not only did I stand out as North American because of the way I acted, I stood out as being alone. I spent the first 18 months learning what I felt comfortable doing. I lived in a hotel (it was nice) and took taxis. I then moved to a small town the other direction and got an apartment and rented a car and started driving. The people in Honduras have ... lets say, independent... ideas on driving customs. I found that is was a lot easier to drive than it looked like it would be from riding along as a passenger. There is a flow you get used to.
The large prison fire that made the international news and was so horrible. It happened about a mile from where I was living. I didn't know about it until I got to work. Not a lot of sirens in the small town. It was truly horrible. I'm sure some of the prisoners escaped into the town. It didn't impact my life at all, other than listening to the stories of the soldiers who helped with the cleanup.
I took my time to learn the culture. I didn't flash jewelry or act arrogant (I don't think) or give anyone any reason to hassle me. I had no bad situations, and I also was very lucky. I didn't tempt fate, and it didn't mess with me. I had a good life down there. I was ready to head back to the US. Living in a country isn't the same as the CNN/Fox news stories of the area.
If I were to make any suggestions, it would be to go for awhile and see how it is. I think in the contractor world it is not that unusual for workers to get somewhere and decide for whatever reason the place isn't for them and they leave.
Oh, I'm a late 50's female, if that makes any difference to my story.
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My brother had to sign a year contract. Of course his family could have left at anytime on their own dime. I see all this discussion around "fear" and the book "The Gift of Fear" is excellent. It discusses how sometimes your fear is your intuition/gut telling you something is not right. There were a lot of good stories about after people were raped/kidnapped/etc they knew immediately before it happened that it was a bad situation but the person played on their desire to be a good person etc and talked them into something they did not want to do. Hard to explain-but one instance was a man convinced a woman to let him carry her groceries up to her apartment-she did not want to but did-he raped and tried to kill her.
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I'd have no problem doing this at your stage of life. I lived overseas for a total of five years and it was great. I thought about going to the ME but decided against it because I went back to school instead.
I say anything that offers a pretty good quality of life, the chance for interesting travel, and significantly jump starts your financial situation at an early point would have been worth it to me.
As for the driving and exit visa issues, I don't know about that but worth some more research to mitigate the risks.
I personally couldn't care less about being treated differently because of being a foreigner and/or a woman. I've experienced this in many countries to my benefit and detriment - so what. It exists and it is up to you to manage what you cannot control. Or, if it bothers you to a great degree don't expose yourself to it and stay home. My best guess based on my experience is that it will not impact you to a great life-changing degree or on a daily basis if you live in an expat community.
People talk down about hanging out with other foreigners and not locals when you live overseas but some of my best friends were made overseas with those experiencing similar cultural adjustments and lifestyles. I would love to be put in this situation again (except I don't want to travel much anymore... darn) because it is a lifelong gift. I count my blessings that our family will be off to Hawaii next year to visit a dear friend made while we were both living overseas.
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I'd have no problem doing this at your stage of life. I lived overseas for a total of five years and it was great. I thought about going to the ME but decided against it because I went back to school instead.
I say anything that offers a pretty good quality of life, the chance for interesting travel, and significantly jump starts your financial situation at an early point would have been worth it to me.
As for the driving and exit visa issues, I don't know about that but worth some more research to mitigate the risks.
I personally couldn't care less about being treated differently because of being a foreigner and/or a woman. I've experienced this in many countries to my benefit and detriment - so what. It exists and it is up to you to manage what you cannot control. Or, if it bothers you to a great degree don't expose yourself to it and stay home. My best guess based on my experience is that it will not impact you to a great life-changing degree or on a daily basis if you live in an expat community.
People talk down about hanging out with other foreigners and not locals when you live overseas but some of my best friends were made overseas with those experiencing similar cultural adjustments and lifestyles. I would love to be put in this situation again (except I don't want to travel much anymore... darn) because it is a lifelong gift. I count my blessings that our family will be off to Hawaii next year to visit a dear friend made while we were both living overseas.
This. I had Japanese people bend over backwards to help out an outsider. I also entered places and been told "no Americans" and worse. It wasn't pleasant or comfortable, but it was an interesting life experience and I think I'm better for it.
Obviously if the "different treatment" includes significantly increased risk being a crime victim, or something of that nature, it's a different story. But just having someone be mean to you or deny a service based on your race or nationality? I think it can actually be an enlightening experience and an opportunity for some healthy perspective.
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Thanks all. It's so interesting to read of your experiences of living and working abroad. It does, for the most part, seem to be what you make it. Shadowmoss you are a good example of that!
Hiring a driver is a possibility, I'll look into that.
Just to clarify, I don't mind being looked down upon by the locals should that be their wont, it's my race being privileged over say an Indian person's that makes me uncomfortable. I should say though that that experience was in Dubai, I don't know how it is in Doha.
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There is definitely a hierarchy based on your ethnicity in Doha too. Generally speaking, Bengalis, Sri Lankans, Nepalis, etc are at the bottom, then the Indians, then the Filipinos, then other Arabs (depending on which country it varies where in the hierarcy), then westerners, then other GCC Arabs. If you're a white westerner, then you will be treated preferably over others below you in the heirarchy.
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I saw a beheading in Riyadh.
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Nope. Wouldn't even consider it. Actually, I wouldn't consider anything north of the Mason Dixon line.
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I saw a beheading in Riyadh.
That must have been some culture shock!
Nope. Wouldn't even consider it. Actually, I wouldn't consider anything north of the Mason Dixon line.
So you're good to go then. Most of the Middle East is south of the Mason-Dixon line (at 39.7 degrees N)! You could go to Baghdad, Iraq (at 33.3 degrees N), for example. ;)
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OP, it sounds like you are taking a reasonable and measured approach to examining the issues here.
I wouldn't necessarily do it to help my finances . . . I will do it some day, probably in about a decade, as part of my "see the world adventure." At that point any financial aspect will just be a bonus.
Meanwhile, I am working on controlling when I exercise my big mouth, because over time I have realized that my progressive, rabble-rousing, treat-people-fairly persona is not always appreciated by those in power. This just means subversion is sometimes the way to go . . .
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Extremely racist place for a person of color.I was born and raised in the middle east, specifically UAE. Most of my extended family lived there for decades. I would never go back there if given a choice!
One other thing I would like to mention is that if you happen to be on wrong side of the law( pretty easy there for law abiding citizens as well), it is very difficult to navigate through their legal system. There will be no communication with the accused for weeks or even months and the trial could take years with absolutely no transparency. I have seen many families shattered due to false accusations of theft or getting into the bad books of any 'Sheikh'. But people who haven't got into that quagmire will never know of it and will continue to lead normal lives!
Most of the Middle Eastern countries made money very quickly(due to oil) and as a result even though their tastes for expensive things(unmustachian) and the infrastructure has developed, the people are very primitive/close-minded in their opinions.
One last thing I would say, is that if you love the outdoors, ME is not the place for you! Every time I would make a visit back to my home country from UAE, I would be mesmerized by nature's beauty!
Pretty obvious difference between USA/western world and the Middle east--> Democracy v/s autocracy!
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I would go in a heartbeat. A great opportunity to max out your savings and broaden your worldview. Most of the responses in this thread show how narrow-minded many Americans are. I spent some time in Qatar on work and there are many aspects of that culture and political environment that I much prefer over the USA.
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We worked for 6 months in Ireland and it was awesome. Obviously Ireland is not the Middle East but the change in environment and experiencing a different culture was awesome. It helped that the company paid for the flight, apartment and a food stipend.
I would try the Middle East if a similar deal was offered.
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I'd do it for sure, assuming A) the increase in pay is worth it - I'd want at least double what I get here, and B) its temporary (2-3 yrs max). Heck in 2-3 years alone I'd nearly have enough to retire!
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Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober. You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.
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Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober. You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.
(http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/133058/file-410653906-jpg/facepalm-1.jpg)
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Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober. You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.
Yes, there are places where you can drink alcohol, pretty much at authorized hotels. If you know the right people, embassies. And then there's always the black market and what not.
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Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober. You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.
(http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/133058/file-410653906-jpg/facepalm-1.jpg)
You know that was slightly sarcastic, still... I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east. There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.
I'll be the first to say that America is far from perfect. But when it comes to rights, there's no place like home.
PS, I still don't trust a culture that doesn't drink, allow pornography, or thinks that seeing a woman's bare head will turn men into savage rapists. Misogyny isn't just a little cultural difference.
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Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober. You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.
(http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/133058/file-410653906-jpg/facepalm-1.jpg)
You know that was slightly sarcastic, still... I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east. There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.
I'll be the first to say that America is far from perfect. But when it comes to rights, there's no place like home.
PS, I still don't trust a culture that doesn't drink, allow pornography, or thinks that seeing a woman's bare head will turn men into savage rapists. Misogyny isn't just a little cultural difference.
But calling them "Muhammad's" is still worth a facepalm or two.
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We will be moving to the Middle East this summer (Bahrain). We are military, so we didn't have much say in the matter. We did have the option of DH doing 1 year unaccompanied or 2 years accompanied. We chose the latter and will be moving with our 3 kids. My advise - read as much as you can. Look on FB for any pages or groups associated with Qatar. They should provide you with good info. Personally I am looking forward to the opportunity to experience a different culture and to traveling to places we probably would never be able to travel with 3 kids. Of course the military provides perks in this area (Space A flights to Spain, Sicily, and Crete, etc are easily accessible). And being Mustachian, we are looking forward to banking some extra pay to put towards our retirement in a few years.
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Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober. You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.
(http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/133058/file-410653906-jpg/facepalm-1.jpg)
You know that was slightly sarcastic, still... I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east. There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.
I'll be the first to say that America is far from perfect. But when it comes to rights, there's no place like home.
PS, I still don't trust a culture that doesn't drink, allow pornography, or thinks that seeing a woman's bare head will turn men into savage rapists. Misogyny isn't just a little cultural difference.
But calling them "Muhammad's" is still worth a facepalm or two.
That was the common term for someone who followed Islam only a few decades ago, I first encountered it in the original I Am Legend book. I think it's is a more appropriate term as Islam differs mainly from Judaism and Christianity only in their chosen messiah. Otherwise, they're all Abrahamic religions (and Jewish).
I occasionally refer to Mormons as Smithians or the magic underwear crowd. I believe making fun of aspects of religions was acceptable because everyone chooses to follow their particular religion. It's not something thrust upon them at birth like color, gender or sexual orientation. Sort of like giggling about someones choice to wear a 3 foot mohawk or have a sleeve or really bad tattoos.
Mostly though, I have a problem with someone not allowing adults to practice their vice of choice based on a loose collection of sacred texts that they really can't even source. Or in the Christian tradition, edited by people far removed from the original source material. The Gospels of Judas and Mary Magdalen were considered heretical several hundred years after their appearance, removed, and the reigning text was used as a basis to routinely kill Jews throughout the next thousand plus years.
I'm agnostic, feel free to call me a Darwinian, Hitchian, heretic etc.
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Meh.
Judging others and making fun of them/labelling based on your agnostic belief in nothing in particular seems odd. It is exactly the same as doing it because you believe in something in particular. All of it seems to be coming from a place of implied superiority over another group. Weird how that works.
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Meh.
Judging others and making fun of them/labelling based on your agnostic belief in nothing in particular seems odd. It is exactly the same as doing it because you believe in something in particular. All of it seems to be coming from a place of implied superiority over another group. Weird how that works.
Not really, I don't feel superior, I feel angry that many Muslim countries don't allow women to have an equal place in society, imprison gay people, and execute people with amazing frequency and restrict an adult's consumption of drugs. Don't you think there's a connection with a culture's absurd amount of violence and their puritanical belief's about sexuality and sin (yes, I'm including the US in that)?
I didn't say I was superior, I said feel free to make fun of my belief system as it's a choice. Not something thrust upon me at birth like race, gender or sexual orientation. And if my belief system was restricting others right to liberty I'd hope you'd do more than just make fun of it. Really though, if you keep your ideas in your group and away from government I don't care how crazy they are. I don't like that the muslims and mormons put restrictions on one of my favorite activities, drinking. I really don't like that they do things like pour millions of dollars into a bill that stops gay people from getting married. That's might draw more of my ire, though getting between me and an IPA is still a worse idea.
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That was the common term for someone who followed Islam only a few decades ago
We've had lots of "common terms" for Blacks, Polish people, Jews, etc.
That doesn't mean they're acceptable to use.
I also am not appreciative of some of their cultural viewpoints, but that doesn't mean I'd degrade or insult them. How does that make anything better?
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That was the common term for someone who followed Islam only a few decades ago
We've had lots of "common terms" for Blacks, Polish people, Jews, etc.
That doesn't mean they're acceptable to use.
I also am not appreciative of some of their cultural viewpoints, but that doesn't mean I'd degrade or insult them. How does that make anything better?
It's an archaic term, not particularly an offensive one. Fortnight is archaic, not offensive. I could have pulled out a dozen obviously offensive terms if I wanted to go down that path. I just wanted to make the point stand out. The actions on individuals that aren't associated with those religions, in the name of those religions, is as archaic as that term.
I think anyone that does something specifically to restrict someone's liberty deserves singling out. I'm a big fat liberal on most things, but I don't dig on cultural relevance. There's a core set of rights that we're all endowed with by birth, and an old book and a few megalomaniacs shouldn't have the right to take that away.
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It's an archaic term, not particularly an offensive one.
I disagree.
Fortnight is archaic, not offensive.
Fortnight doesn't dismiss a whole group of people based on their common characteristics (ethnicity, for example).
A term can be both archaic and offensive, and you used one that is both. Polack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polack) is another example of a word that is both archaic and offensive.
I absolutely agree with lots of stuff you're saying, like this:
I think anyone that does something specifically to restrict someone's liberty deserves singling out. I'm a big fat liberal on most things, but I don't dig on cultural relevance. There's a core set of rights that we're all endowed with by birth, and an old book and a few megalomaniacs shouldn't have the right to take that away.
I just don't feel that slurs prove your point or help it at all, they only detract from what you're saying and make someone who disagrees with you dismiss your arguments right away before you can even say anything else, and make someone who agrees with you question why they are agreeing with someone who says offensive slurs.
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Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth. I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays. I do tend to use terms some people find offensive when it comes to groups with voluntary membership, and what I find to be offensive actions. Be that religion, or people that listen to loud EDM in the park across the street from me.
This isn't the first time I've had this argument, and I do realize that my belief system is beyond fringe. So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?
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Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth. I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.
But people born in and living in the Middle East all act a certain way? (That, to me, is something thrust upon them at birth.)
Your statement was about all the people living there (and, more specifically, their government). Not just those who believe a certain religion.
You specifically noted:
I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east. There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.
While I agree with that, I don't see it as a reason to use a slur against everyone in the country.
So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?
Fair enough.
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Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth. I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays. I do tend to use terms some people find offensive when it comes to groups with voluntary membership, and what I find to be offensive actions. Be that religion, or people that listen to loud EDM in the park across the street from me.
This isn't the first time I've had this argument, and I do realize that my belief system is beyond fringe. So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?
But you did use a slur, and just because you think it is not offensive does not make it not a slur. And frankly, being someone not of Abrahamic, your insult makes the rest of us look bad. I don't want to my culture to be associated with bigots as much as I don't want it associated with mysoginistic jerks. So, yes, I will call someone on either and maybe if you keep having this come up, maybe you are the one that needs to reconsider doing it instead of asking us to pretend what you are doing is ok.
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I guess the question to ask yourself is whether your reality testing holds up. Are your beliefs grounded in a liberal viewpoint or is your viewpoint really limiting how you view others unfairly?
The internet is not great a presenting a full picture but my perception from your posts is not of a "left-leaning liberal" but rather of a judgemental individual that feels free to put others down based on their religious beliefs which, in many countries, are a cultural norm that individuals are born into. Your indoctrination by a system based on "liberal" values also seems to blind you to the fact that good people exist everywhere and religious beliefs tend to increase personal happiness.
I don't agree with behaviours and opinions that demean or diminish others based on their religious beliefs. This is true whether it is an Islamic belief that justifies the unequal treatment of women or an agnostic belief used to cover underlying Islamophobia.
Depending on your financial circumstances I also have some concerns about the fact that one of the major reasons you have given for not going to the ME is that would not be willing to limit alcohol and drugs for a year - presumably even if it meant tripling your net income and setting yourself up for future FI. I'd personally be more concerned about any adverse consequences of addiction than I would be about living a year as an expat in the ME.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-reisenwitz/whos-afraid-of-ayaan-hirs_b_5148397.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21665/ask-a-muslim-10-weird-questions-i-m-often-asked-but-am-happy-to-answer
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Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth. I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays. I do tend to use terms some people find offensive when it comes to groups with voluntary membership, and what I find to be offensive actions. Be that religion, or people that listen to loud EDM in the park across the street from me.
This isn't the first time I've had this argument, and I do realize that my belief system is beyond fringe. So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?
But you did use a slur, and just because you think it is not offensive does not make it not a slur. And frankly, being someone not of Abrahamic, your insult makes the rest of us look bad. I don't want to my culture to be associated with bigots as much as I don't want it associated with mysoginistic jerks. So, yes, I will call someone on either and maybe if you keep having this come up, maybe you are the one that needs to reconsider doing it instead of asking us to pretend what you are doing is ok.
Definition of MUHAMMADAN
: of or relating to Muhammad or Islam
source (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muhammadan)
Again, archaic, not a slur. Perhaps you could argue that it's pejorative, but that's different than a slur also. Would you also be upset if I used the word "niggardly?"
Here's the deal. I was indoctrinated into an Abrahamic religion shortly after birth without having a choice in the matter. Catholicism told me I was a sinner, touching my penis was evil, and that god was watching everything I did and I'd have to answer to anything I did past the age of 7. Personally, I consider subjecting children to that sort of bullshit to be a form of child abuse. I left at 14. Much like people that escape repressive governments, I feel I have the right to insult what I find oppressive or hypocritical about Abrahamic religions.
Again, we're not talking about characteristics that people cannot change like skin color or gender. We're talking about voluntary membership in an organization that promotes what I consider to be abuses of human and civil rights through a network of intertwined religious and governmental actions, commonly referred to as a theocracy. I don't think you would suggest I refer to a ranking member of the Klu Klux Klan by his proper title, would you?
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Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?
Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
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I guess the question to ask yourself is whether your reality testing holds up. Are your beliefs grounded in a liberal viewpoint or is your viewpoint really limiting how you view others unfairly?
The internet is not great a presenting a full picture but my perception from your posts is not of a "left-leaning liberal" but rather of a judgemental individual that feels free to put others down based on their religious beliefs which, in many countries, are a cultural norm that individuals are born into. Your indoctrination by a system based on "liberal" values also seems to blind you to the fact that good people exist everywhere and religious beliefs tend to increase personal happiness.
I don't agree with behaviours and opinions that demean or diminish others based on their religious beliefs. This is true whether it is an Islamic belief that justifies the unequal treatment of women or an agnostic belief used to cover underlying Islamophobia.
Depending on your financial circumstances I also have some concerns about the fact that one of the major reasons you have given for not going to the ME is that would not be willing to limit alcohol and drugs for a year - presumably even if it meant tripling your net income and setting yourself up for future FI. I'd personally be more concerned about any adverse consequences of addiction than I would be about living a year as an expat in the ME.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-reisenwitz/whos-afraid-of-ayaan-hirs_b_5148397.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21665/ask-a-muslim-10-weird-questions-i-m-often-asked-but-am-happy-to-answer
I view organizations, and people that choose to be members of organizations, on the tenets of their actions and beliefs. Again, this is about Islam, not someone of Arabic, Persian or perhaps Malaysian descent. Christians and Muslims follow an organizational belief system that states "I am the way and the truth and the light, there is no god but me" and "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his profit." These two statements have been used as a justification for countless wars and the mass slaughter of people that didn't agree with these concepts over more than a thousand years. It continues today in place like Afghanistan and Iraq, that I would argue we entered to fulfill George W Bush's myopic, fundamentalists view of Christian doctrine. That alone should draw our ire and a questioning view of an organization.
The fact that these organizations have infiltrated governmental bodies and thrust their doctrine upon the masses, even if the masses didn't follow their viewpoint, should make you upset. Individual liberties are not given by a democratic consensus, they're given by our very existence. I will question and insult any organization that tries to restrict an individuals choices and right to live their life in the manner they see fit. That isn't islamaphobia, that's making ideas and actions stand on their own two feet.
Questioning my relationship with substances? Ad hominem arguments are a great way to sidestep the issue. I'm an adult, and as an adult I enjoy a few adult pleasures. I like a finely created craft brew (brewed by me for $.32 a glass thank you very much), I like to have sex with my wife. Before I was married, I liked to have sex with people I wasn't married to. If I was gay or bi, I'd enjoy having sex with people of the same gender. Those are actions that should be protected by any society. We're talking about liberty, so wonderfully described by Matt Damon as "A soul's right to breathe."
No, I'm not going to give up my nightly indulgence to make a few sheckles more. I'm not going to tell my wife she has to cover her head so we can make more dough. What if we move there, and one of my kids decides they're gay and want to have a relationship with someone of the same gender? Normally I'd applaud their decision to live the life they were handed. If we lived in the middle east I'd fear for their safety and potential imprisonment. That's not worth more money.
I was an airline pilot on the fast track to making 100k + a year. (My dad's a captain at a major airline and makes $300k+ and has 1.8 million in stock options). I left my job to be a stay at home dad 9 months after my son was born. I gave up the idea of fast money at the expense of my family's and my own well being at that point. So no, I'm not going to follow a bunch of money, especially if it means I put myself or my family at risk.
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Also, if we're going to continue this discussion we should probably split it off into a new thread. My original statement was glib, but it conformed to the op's original question. We're starting to get into philisophical territory here and it doesn't really conform to the title.
I feel that I've stated my position rather clearly, and backed it up with appropriate facts. If you'd like to question any of those planks, feel free to start a new thread.
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Maybe we can add it to the off topic judgement thread so we can keep all the racism in one place.
Or how about we just drop it, and get back on topic?
On second thought, yes, please no one respond to greaper here. If you'd like to, go cut and paste his comment(s) over there and feel free to respond.
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I guess the question to ask yourself is whether your reality testing holds up. Are your beliefs grounded in a liberal viewpoint or is your viewpoint really limiting how you view others unfairly?
The internet is not great a presenting a full picture but my perception from your posts is not of a "left-leaning liberal" but rather of a judgemental individual that feels free to put others down based on their religious beliefs which, in many countries, are a cultural norm that individuals are born into. Your indoctrination by a system based on "liberal" values also seems to blind you to the fact that good people exist everywhere and religious beliefs tend to increase personal happiness.
I don't agree with behaviours and opinions that demean or diminish others based on their religious beliefs. This is true whether it is an Islamic belief that justifies the unequal treatment of women or an agnostic belief used to cover underlying Islamophobia.
Depending on your financial circumstances I also have some concerns about the fact that one of the major reasons you have given for not going to the ME is that would not be willing to limit alcohol and drugs for a year - presumably even if it meant tripling your net income and setting yourself up for future FI. I'd personally be more concerned about any adverse consequences of addiction than I would be about living a year as an expat in the ME.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-reisenwitz/whos-afraid-of-ayaan-hirs_b_5148397.html
http://www.policymic.com/articles/21665/ask-a-muslim-10-weird-questions-i-m-often-asked-but-am-happy-to-answer
I view organizations, and people that choose to be members of organizations, on the tenets of their actions and beliefs. Again, this is about Islam, not someone of Arabic, Persian or perhaps Malaysian descent. Christians and Muslims follow an organizational belief system that states "I am the way and the truth and the light, there is no god but me" and "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his profit." These two statements have been used as a justification for countless wars and the mass slaughter of people that didn't agree with these concepts over more than a thousand years. It continues today in place like Afghanistan and Iraq, that I would argue we entered to fulfill George W Bush's myopic, fundamentalists view of Christian doctrine. That alone should draw our ire and a questioning view of an organization.
The fact that these organizations have infiltrated governmental bodies and thrust their doctrine upon the masses, even if the masses didn't follow their viewpoint, should make you upset. Individual liberties are not given by a democratic consensus, they're given by our very existence. I will question and insult any organization that tries to restrict an individuals choices and right to live their life in the manner they see fit. That isn't islamaphobia, that's making ideas and actions stand on their own two feet.
Questioning my relationship with substances? Ad hominem arguments are a great way to sidestep the issue. I'm an adult, and as an adult I enjoy a few adult pleasures. I like a finely created craft brew (brewed by me for $.32 a glass thank you very much), I like to have sex with my wife. Before I was married, I liked to have sex with people I wasn't married to. If I was gay or bi, I'd enjoy having sex with people of the same gender. Those are actions that should be protected by any society. We're talking about liberty, so wonderfully described by Matt Damon as "A soul's right to breathe."
No, I'm not going to give up my nightly indulgence to make a few sheckles more. I'm not going to tell my wife she has to cover her head so we can make more dough. What if we move there, and one of my kids decides they're gay and want to have a relationship with someone of the same gender? Normally I'd applaud their decision to live the life they were handed. If we lived in the middle east I'd fear for their safety and potential imprisonment. That's not worth more money.
I was an airline pilot on the fast track to making 100k + a year. (My dad's a captain at a major airline and makes $300k+ and has 1.8 million in stock options). I left my job to be a stay at home dad 9 months after my son was born. I gave up the idea of fast money at the expense of my family's and my own well being at that point. So no, I'm not going to follow a bunch of money, especially if it means I put myself or my family at risk.
The fact those of that religion should not infringe on others does not make your behavior any more morally right. I have fought against those who would infringe on others (women and homosexuals, mostly), because of their religion and frankly I more horrified to find you within that group because I don't like bigots within groups I am in. And side note, your definition was not of the word you used.
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Well, those reasons for not going are new and have not been presented before. Sounds like a good choice for you.
As far as the religious issues, I agree that horrible things have happened that have been justified by religion. Of course, horrible things have happened that have been justified by freedom and democracy. I would point out that the Russians went into Afghanistan in the late 80s to "free women and give educational opportunities to all" and not for religious reasons at all. The same reasons that Canada went for, at least the public reason, in more recent times.
This is an interesting article about the indoctrination of war in Afghanistan written about a good friend of mine: http://robwipond.com/archives/32 I think it is a great example of how a culture uses propaganda, whether religious or democratic, to justify war and oppression and get buy-in. I would argue that underlying the buy-in is the assertion of dominance and control for strategic or political reasons.
I don't think insulting religions or comparing them to a hate group is fair. Restrictions on individual freedoms are worthy of informed critique, but not insults. The line between insulting a religion because you don't agree with it and bigotry seems pretty fine to me. There are lots of people who choose religion for the benefits it brings. I find Cat Stevens to be an interesting and somewhat admirable example.
http://www.islamcan.com/convert-stories/yusuf-islam-formerly-cat-stevens-how-he-became-a-muslim.shtml#.U06lX2xrZMs
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The fact those of that religion should not infringe on others does not make your behavior any more morally right. I have fought against those who would infringe on others (women and homosexuals, mostly), because of their religion and frankly I more horrified to find you within that group because I don't like bigots within groups I am in. And side note, your definition was not of the word you used.
On a side note, upon further inspection, you're right. Typing on an iphone with small children in the room doesn't always work. Blame Steve Jobs for that one. My intended original term was Mohammedan. Thanks for pointing that out.
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MOD NOTE: POST MOVED.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/ot-judging-others/
Please refrain from any further discussion of the off topic use of the word "Muhammads" in this thread.
/END MOD NOTE
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(Reposting my question from this morning. Thanks!)
Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?
Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
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(Reposting my question from this morning. Thanks!)
Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if you're current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?
Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
Thanks for getting us back on track!
What sort of job/industry are you looking for? "Professional job" is a bit vague.
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What sort of job/industry are you looking for? "Professional job" is a bit vague.
Well my education and bulk of my 8 years of work experience is in manufacturing engineering. Cost/benefit analysis, project management, purchasing and installing capital equipment, training operators on how to use said capital equipment, a little bit of robotics and CNC coding. I've done a bit of Excel scripting, but nothing more involved than a few reports and userforms.
I do enjoy teaching. I could take an Oxford seminar (http://www.oxfordseminars.com/ (http://www.oxfordseminars.com/)) and teach English ... but I would prefer an engineering job. My current industry is large machinery (CAT, CNH, JD, Hitachi, etc...) but I'm guessing most engineering opportunities would be within the Oil & Gas domain (Saudi Aramco, Exxon Mobil, etc...). Not sure how my skills would directly transfer to their industry.
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My current industry is large machinery (CAT, CNH, JD, Hitachi, etc...) but I'm guessing most engineering opportunities would be within the Oil & Gas domain (Saudi Aramco, Exxon Mobil, etc...). Not sure how my skills would directly transfer to their industry.
There is a lot of other industries besides Oil & Gas in the ME, though it is fairly dominant. There are a bunch of other engineering projects in the ME, Qatar is doing a lot of work for the World Cup. Kuwait is doing large medical/education/air transportation projects. UAE often has port projects. I worked for the USG in a non-engineering field so don't know of any good resources to finding an engineering job aside from working with the USG. I'd say google...
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(Reposting my question from this morning. Thanks!)
Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?
Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
Start with www.gulftalent.com. There are also a lot of ME headhunters on LinkedIn.
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I would investigate what happens if you get into debt for any reason whatsoever. In some
of those countries I heard that you can be put in prison, there is no provision for bankruptcy.
I find the implications frightening.
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Here in Newfoundland, we have a lot of people who work highly-paid jobs in oil/gas or English teaching in the Middle East for a few years, and then come back to retire early.
Is the cost of living in Newfoundland super cheap? Because teaching in the Middle East doesn't pay that much.
Newfoundland is cheap in rural areas, especially housing, but becoming expensive in St. John's (the capital). But it's mostly down to high earnings, in oil and gas. The high earners in English teaching are often at universities, teaching local English teachers. They're often there because Canada has a teacher surplus.
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(Reposting my question from this morning. Thanks!)
Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?
Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
Start with www.gulftalent.com. There are also a lot of ME headhunters on LinkedIn.
Thanks kkbmustang! I took a look at www.gulftalent.com and that is exactly what I was looking for. Let the hunt begin...
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Nothing on this thread makes me think this move would be a good idea.
Not a single thing.
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(Reposting my question from this morning. Thanks!)
Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?
Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
Start with www.gulftalent.com. There are also a lot of ME headhunters on LinkedIn.
Thanks kkbmustang! I took a look at www.gulftalent.com and that is exactly what I was looking for. Let the hunt begin...
No problem!
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It has been said by some, but hereby my view: YES, of course you should go. Life is about learning, trying out new directions, new experiences, and yes, Middle East pays well, so you can work on your FI in the fast lane! I have lived in Dubai, but traveled to all the countries in Middle East, and even though Dubai is not my favorite place, I had a great time and learned a lot. So, yes, the world is (still) open, make use of it!!!
By the way, do not let yourself get constrained by the so-many hurdles that people describe in this thread, yes, there are sometimes limitations in alcohol usage in Middle East, or you might not like all rules in Islamic world, etc... but in this way, you never will see it with your own eyes, and you will never see the good things of this Middle East experience.
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I have lived in many different states & enjoyed the experience but when had chance to go to Saudi did not go. My brother went and was happy with his decision-my hubby wanted to go so I told him go but the kids & I were staying & he decided not to go. Everyone was happy with their decision. Only you can know what is right for you.
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I think racism is still pretty rampant in some parts of the US isn't it?!
And in Australia (where I live) racism against Indigenous Australians, immigrants and so-called "boat people" or "illegal immigrants" is shocking. In fact the government is at this very moment proposing changes to the Racial Discrimination Act which will basically sanctions bigotry and hate speech. Just because racism is less obvious, doesn't mean it's any less prevalent or any less vile.
Racism is everywhere, unfortunately. I wouldn't base your views on racism in America based on what you watch on tv. Television in the US tends to negatively stereotype the south.
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It sounds like the OP has her head on straight.
* She's lived in 'foreign' cultures before.
* She's looking at different sides of issues which may crop up
* She didn't rule it out just because it's a 'Muslim country' or the Middle East
* She'll be fine, no matter what
Btw OP, I lived in Sydney part-time for 3 years. Really enjoyed the place in many ways, but the anti-Lebanese and anti-Indian racism, amongst others, gave me pause (anti-east Asian racism was discreet in comparison). To say nothing of how the Indigenous people are treated -- however I'm from the USA, so we obviously have our terrible points on this too. I was surprised at how ok it seemed to bash aboriginal people, to just ignore them as full human beings....never seen anything quite like it, but I expect in the American south it can be like that too.
Granted I have always lived in cities but I have not experienced anything in my life that makes me think racism is any worse or better in NY versus a southern city. Again you're probably basing things on television or how things were a long time ago. The south has had millions and millions of people move there over the last few decades and things have changed dramatically. Is there still racism? Yes but I think the south gets a bad rep on television and in the media. I am always shocked about the kind of questions I receive. For example, but wouldn't it be awful to be a black person in business in x city? My response: the city leads the nation in African American owned businesses so I don't think so. Or don't black people live in huge housing projects in the south? Yes. On a side note have you ever heard of the Bronx?
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OP, I say go for it. Most of the negative comments are from individuals who have never lived in the ME and are reacting to what they think rather than know.
I've lived in the UAE for almost 8 years now with my wife and three young sons. They absolutely love it here. Are there challenges? Of course there are, it is a foreign country after all. But at the end of the day, I try to respect the culture I'm in and make the most of the time I have with my family.
At the same time, i appreciate the fact that I'm going to be able to ER almost 15 years early because of the time spent working overseas.
Good luck with your decision.
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"waiting to hear about some of the finer details but DH has a job offer on a role in Qatar."
Is this a new job offer or a posting to Qatar by his current company ? If its a posting to Qatar for a fixed duration, no harm in trying it out. DH could go first and get a feel for the area / position / work environment and you and the kids could follow in a month or two.
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I'll add to the thread because I am one who did decide to move to the Middle East to help my finances.
Living is not as bad as you may think- (we live on a compound so YMMV) it feels like we are at a resort, albiet surrounded by 12ft walls. Pools, sports, gym, pretty much just like a resort except it is blistering hot in the summer and you are isolated in a "small" area. If I had to live off camp I would not be here.
Cost of living is insane cheap (most companys take care of majority of costs- excluding meals) and you should be able to save at least 90% of the tax free super high salary that you are making.
Work is horrible over here if you take any pride in what you do. The culture is just.....different. Nothing gets accomplished, very slow, sort of like working for a government beauracracy. I hate every minute that I am at work, no joke.
Normally I would not endure this at all; however, knowing that I will be able to retire in 2.5 years makes it ok. Every month when you see your paycheck it makes it all a little better. You pretty much live for the weekends/vacation though. If you get with a group of expats it can be fun- again you are all here for the same reason- to make as much $$$ as possible and gtfo as soon as possible. Be careful though- when people are making upwards of 300k they like to spend- try to stay away from this mentality. 80% of the people in my camp went out and bought 50k+ brand new cars within the first week....Funny thing is probably half of them will have dents and scratches from accidents within a year.
I was very worried about the safety at first but now it seems like not an issue at all. Just don't put yourself in a dangerous situation and you will be fine. Driving is absurd- almost comical if so many people wern't dying all of the time. Try to stay off the roads. I drive my 3 miles, er....5km ;-) to work now and as long as you are super defensive you should be fine.
Vacations are awesome- you mentioned 38days, we get about the same. Use them and explore the world. Don't skimp on the vacations- sure you could save an extra 20k, but you are making so much and since it sucks so bad here its the only way to stay sane- at least thats how I view it. Italy, Greece, France, Germany, Switzerland, Maldives, Dubai, and back to the US over 2.5 months just this year. Make sure you enjoy the travel if you go.
So yes work is horrible, but you never work over 40hrs and they don't even know what a work cellphone is I'm pretty sure (no work ever goes home with you). What also helps me is that one goal over here was to get into top shape- I said I would not be returning to the states until I got 6 pack abs :-) so that is my driver. That actually wasn't as hard as I thought though and my limiting factor will be the FIRE number not the health goal. So far I am happy I took the risk and just keep looking to the future of early retirement. I would never consider staying longer then 3 years.
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Thank you everyone for your input. DH decided not to take the role after some (positive) work developments here but I do feel better informed should an opportunity present itself again.