Author Topic: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).  (Read 53266 times)

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2016, 10:19:39 AM »

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....

its 100% serious dude.  i dont have time to do chores is a cop out.

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2016, 10:27:12 AM »

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....

its 100% serious dude.  i dont have time to do chores is a cop out.

Boarder42! This will be a pleasure. I never said I didn't have time to do them(reading comprehension). I said we gladly hire it out because we don't want to. Time = money, although obviously people value their time differently. Everyone hires things out in their life that they don't want to do though. I don't understand why some people on this site are so argumentative when someone else does something differently than they do.

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2016, 10:32:08 AM »

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....

its 100% serious dude.  i dont have time to do chores is a cop out.

Boarder42! This will be a pleasure. I never said I didn't have time to do them(reading comprehension). I said we gladly hire it out because we don't want to. Time = money, although obviously people value their time differently. Everyone hires things out in their life that they don't want to do though. I don't understand why some people on this site are so argumentative when someone else does something differently than they do.

this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself. unless you just enjoy face punches
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 10:36:03 AM by boarder42 »

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2016, 10:35:08 AM »

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

LOL. How incredibly ridiculous. I'll quote my post from another thread I started on time vs. money:

A common thread through both the articles and posts here is that of the Compound Effect (book here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159315724X?keywords=the%20compound%20effect&qid=1445367773&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1), which basically holds that everyday decisions, when compounded over time, can add up to significant changes.  MMM has wrote about this on a variety of things--cheaper car payment = more can be invested; brew your own coffee = $10/week x 52 weeks x 8% return for 20 years of investments = tons of money; public schools vs. private schools = huge amounts of money for the schooling years of kids.

And I generally agree with that compound principle--but only for the "big ticket" items (car, house, public school, etc.). As for the small stuff?

I think the compound effect of time is significantly more important than the compound effect of money, and I think that gets lost in the way of this community's emphasis on frugality.

For an example, I saw a thread on here once about making your own "minute rice." Basically it went something like this: get a 2 lb. bag of brown rice, a couple bouillon cubes, seasonings, etc.; make the rice, wrap it in saran wrap, let it cool, freeze it, and boom--you have minute rice. And that would save me about $2/pound of rice. And if you eat a lot of rice (which I do), then that's a lot of money over a lifetime.

So I tried this for two weekends and it probably took about 45 minutes each weekend. Honestly, that's not worth $2.00. I would rather be doing so many other things during that time, and maybe even doing some work related to starting my own law firm by next summer (i.e., doing something productive that would lead to a potential increase in income, which is far more likely to lead me to financial independence than saving $2 at the grocery store).

And I think a lot of posters on here could use the reminder that time saved can be more important than money saved.

Our ultimate collective goal, as I see it, is to become financially independent. But when people are willing to spend hours doing something to save a couple dollars, they are a slave to money in the same way that a person in credit card debt is (i.e., it stresses them out/they think too much about it). That's not ideal when trying to become financially independent.

So the point of this post is to just remind people to not only consider the compound effect of money, but also consider the compound effect of time. Some things that cost a fraction more are simply worth the expense so you can do other things that will lead you to (a) spending more time with loved ones and (b) potentially using that time to achieve financial independence sooner.

I still stand by this 1000% percent. Hell, the entire thinking behind FIRE is to accumulate enough money so you can have an indefinite amount of free time. So why are people so against using money NOW to save time NOW? It's quite easily the biggest contradiction on this forum.

Of course I have time to bike to work and do every chore imaginable and fix everything that breaks. But I value my time over saving a couple bucks a month.

-It takes about $2,500 to pay for my car each year (assuming $1,000 in maintenance per year). Compared to biking to and from work, my car saves me nine hours per week just on my work commute alone. So basically I'm paying $5/week to have 9 more hours of time. Give me a break if you don't think that's worth it.

-I just paid a repairman $30 to fix my garage. It would have taken me my entire Saturday morning, driving to go get parts, etc. to figure it out and repair it myself. I instead opted to pay the repairman and then went and volunteered with my community organization to repair a blighted local park.

I could go on, and this isn't to say I don't try to save money. Of course I do. But it's better to get the big things right than get your bojangles tangled in a wad over saving X amount of money rather than enjoying Y amount of time.

Put another way, you are a slave to money and your bottom line if your theoretical net worth in 30 years is more important than your free time now.

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2016, 10:38:43 AM »
this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself.

Or I'll just continue to post here because I know my blatant consumerism drives you absolutely crazy. I don't expect you to understand why I gave in and spent the money on a maid for my wife, since you compared your wife's replaceability to a pair of shoes in another thread.

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2016, 10:39:06 AM »
the purpose of the forum isnt to show off and brag about how you waste your money. its to learn how to spend less money but go ahead and wax your ego's

neo von retorch

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2016, 10:39:35 AM »
So the latest bad advice is "never pay for anything no matter how much time it saves, even if you could make more money doing something else with that time"?

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2016, 10:39:52 AM »
this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself.

Or I'll just continue to post here because I know my blatant consumerism drives you absolutely crazy. I don't expect you to understand why I gave in and spent the money on a maid for my wife, since you compared your wife's replaceability to a pair of shoes in another thread.

incorrect. but i wouldnt expect you to understand.

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2016, 10:42:49 AM »
So the latest bad advice is "never pay for anything no matter how much time it saves, even if you could make more money doing something else with that time"?

99% incorrect 

i would say the bad advice is post crap you spend money on that is mostly needless to enjoy a happy life on a forum about cutting back consumerism.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2016, 10:43:40 AM »
this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself.

I could probably pay off my law school debt if I got a dollar for every time you said "I own a boat and don't broadcast it on here!" as a justification to condescend others' spending habits that you find personally objectionable.

Again op post is what's the mustachian thing to do. And outsourcing insurance on your life is unmustacian. So is owning a boat. I own a boat I don't come on here and try to tell you all why I own it and that it's a necessary.

It was a choice you made to have kids before you could financially support them if you were to die and now you're paying extra to insure them incase you do die.

Just like it's my choice to own a boat and insure it. But it's NOT mustachian.

why even make this post then?  Did you want confirmation from a FIRE forum that buying a new car made sense.  Its not gonna happen here.

I own a boat pretty unMustachian.  But i dont post on here expecting people to support my decision.  I do everything as frugally as i can with the boat but its still a boat. 

If you think getting the assurance of internet strangers will help you make a care purchase then you knew the answer before you posted this.  and why 2016 did they change the body in 2016.  if so in 4 years get a 2016 - still newer than i would buy but you have to mold this lifestyle into your own.

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

However i will say IF you feel the need to justify somehting you do to internet strangers then you're probably trying to justify it to yourself.  I own a boat but i dont come on here looking for approval from mustachians b/c thats never going to happen.

also if your wife is a SAHM.  this should be her job to cut this bill down to nothing.  WTF can you possibly do all day.  she should be able to find extreme deals and manage your household budget full time to the gnats ass detail... i can do this working 60+ hours a week sometime.  start making the changes and make it a habit. 

i mean all you did was counter every point made to lower your bill.  this would be like me posting about my boat costing me too much money and people telling me to sell it and me giving them 20 reasons why i wont.

why post
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 10:53:13 AM by ReadySetMillionaire »

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2016, 10:49:51 AM »
Hahaha that's impressive ^

MoneyCat

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2016, 10:53:07 AM »
"Follow your passion and the money will come. Live for today because life is short and you only live once." This is pretty much why my life was a fucking disaster in my 20s.

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2016, 11:02:52 AM »
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.

GuitarStv

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2016, 11:10:20 AM »
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.

This is actually the main motivation that I have to not outsource things that would save me time.  I spend an awful lot of time every single day fucking around.  Having more time to fuck around isn't significantly more productive, or worth more dollars to me than having a bit less time to fuck around and doing the tasks myself.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2016, 11:14:54 AM »
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.
Predictably, attack the person, not the substance.

But it took about 5 minutes and was well worth (a) a break from work and (b) my amusement.

Cheers man. Now go enjoy your boat.

infogoon

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2016, 11:20:53 AM »
Cheers man. Now go enjoy your boat.

He has a boat?

Cpa Cat

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2016, 11:28:17 AM »
1. Cut Starbucks. 

I am all for not wasting 5 bucks a day on coffee, but the people who use this line, generally have nothing else to say.  If it weren't for all the money wasted on coffee, I think they'd have no financial advice to give.  It's not like they are then asking you to consider giving up your car.

I disagree that it's bad advice. Sometimes, I think Mustachians lose sight of the fact that most people really suck at saving and are used to spending all of their money. If you start off with those people by saying, "Give up your car," they will just shut down. They will do nothing. It seems too hard. But give up Starbucks? They can wrap their head around that. It's a sacrifice - but a small sacrifice. It gets them started.

Then, after Starbucks, they start thinking: "What else can I cut?" Maybe eating out? Maybe the lawn service? There are a lot of steps between cutting Starbucks and cutting the vehicle or downsizing your house.



2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!

I hate this one, too. I hear it all the time: "The realtor told me I'd save 30% of the interest on my taxes!!" I am convinced that most realtors don't understand the difference between the standard deduction and itemizing. In my region (LCOL), the MFJ standard deduction of $12,600 is an enormous hurdle to cross, and people with mortgages and real estate taxes on average houses often don't end up itemizing.

"Oh, it turns out that having a mortgage saves you exactly NOTHING on your taxes. Maybe you should have consulted your CPA instead of your realtor for tax advice."

Have extra money deducted from your paycheck every month so you'll get a big tax refund. 

I encourage people to increase their withholding all of the time. Getting a big refund makes them happy. Owing taxes makes them sad. Most people seem fundamentally incapable of planning for a tax bill. They are shocked and horrified if they don't get a refund. Owing money at tax time is like needing to pay for an emergency ER visit. It totally derails them financially. I discuss increasing withholding while they're still getting a small refund. Most clients tell me that they would feel happier and more secure if their refund was bigger and would be very unhappy if they had to pay in. So even though I know their withholding is just about bang-on perfect, I fill out their W-4s for them to take to work to increase it.


I also sometimes advise my sole-proprietor clients to create S-Corps - not for the tax savings, but because I can get them to put themselves on payroll and automatically withhold taxes. It helps break the cycle of constant IRS installment agreements because they can't seem to find the money for estimated taxes, but they can find it for withholding.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 11:30:21 AM by Cpa Cat »

Cromacster

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2016, 12:06:04 PM »
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.
Predictably, attack the person, not the substance.

But it took about 5 minutes and was well worth (a) a break from work and (b) my amusement.

Cheers man. Now go enjoy your boat.

I don't think it was a personal attack.  He was merely pointed out that those 5 minutes could have been used to scrub the toilet or clean a few dishes.

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.

FI by 2035

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2016, 12:36:49 PM »
Advice I hear a lot from family and friends: "If you wait till you can afford it you'll never have kids."

Terrible advice. I know I can afford it now, we are just waiting till were free of student loans so we'll be in a better situation to provide for our kids and continue to work towards our financial goals. Some people just don't get it.

MudDuck

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2016, 12:41:33 PM »
It's getting a little ::ahem:: catty in here.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2016, 12:44:03 PM »
I don't think it was a personal attack.  He was merely pointed out that those 5 minutes could have been used to scrub the toilet or clean a few dishes.

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.

I agree I wouldn't have a cleaning person. But I also don't knock people for paying money to save time because it's impossible to know what's going on with their life.  Someone posting on MMM is presumably intelligent and very personal finance literate, they've presumably done the  cost benefit analysis. To knock them because your cost benefit analysis is different doesn't make sense to me.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 01:08:39 PM by ReadySetMillionaire »

Inaya

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2016, 01:03:02 PM »
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2016, 01:09:05 PM »
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

Well said.

Filliteracy

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2016, 01:32:24 PM »
1.  Late 2014:  Buy oil stocks.  They are cheap and will recover smartly.

2.  Leasing a vehicle frees up capital to invest more (LOL!).

Whats wrong with #1? What horizon did you expect them to recover, it's not even been 1.5 years? Meanwhile enjoy the 5-6% dividends from "risky" 100B+ capitalization until it recovers possibly in 5, 10, or who cares, 20 years, then cash in for the capital gains. If you are putting money in the stock market trying to make money short term (5 years or less IMHO), you're not investing, you're speculating.

Zikoris

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2016, 01:44:54 PM »
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

Counterpoint: Mustachianism is also about developing self-reliance skills, reducing your environmental impact, and generally not being a lazy consumer sucker.

sheepstache

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2016, 02:14:31 PM »
So the latest bad advice is "never pay for anything no matter how much time it saves, even if you could make more money doing something else with that time"?

Well coming straight from the MMM's mouth are the attitudes on insourcing. I think it's treated as an absolute good kinda regardless of money saved.

To me, this is because consumerism has taught people that any kind of chore or work you could outsource is bad and unenjoyable and even shameful. But in fact doing things for yourself can provide a great deal of satisfaction from fitness maintained, skills gained, general happiness from self-reliance.

I mean, consumerist culture would have ReadySetMillionaire believing that paying someone else to maintain his yard while he goes and volunteers to maintain a rundown park is good. There's some weird undertone in our culture that volunteering is fun while doing the same work for yourself is degrading misery. Also you get external rewards for volunteering; you're a Good Person, whereas no one pats you on the back for taking care of your own things. And Choice! Don't forget that as consumers We Deserve Choice. If you pay someone so you can go do something else, you know you're choosing that activity, whereas home maintenance is based on boring old reality where you have to accommodate yourself to whatever problem presents itself. How do you know Your Real Authentic Self wants to work on that problem? You never know whether you truly enjoy something unless you're paying for it.

Of course, RSM didn't exchange identical tasks; he might well know he's wretched at figuring out mechanical problems.  This is where I disagree with some more hardcore folks. While I would add the caveat that a guaranteed way to stay bad at mechanical problems is to always outsource them, I do respect individual aptitude and preferences. My mother is afraid of lawn mowers due to some traumatic experience, so even though she could mow her own lawn out of sheer willpower, it's just always going to be a hateful task to her. (Some might say she shouldn't have a lawn then, but she does all her own landscaping and gardening and needs a grassy area for her dogs.)

And I've seen some really harsh comments here about how everybody can clean, but I personally am one of those people who is terrible at cleaning. My mind just doesn't get it. My partner can go wipe down the surfaces in the kitchen and it's sparking. I can go do the same thing and it looks the exact same, minus a few crumbs. I do not understand what wizardry is involved with making things look clean. In our case I'm able to make up for it by jumping on tasks like washing dishes or doing laundry where the procedure is more straightforward. But if those weren't options I'd just have to outsource to keep the peace. 

galliver

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2016, 03:28:45 PM »
There was a recent economist article on this subject - methodology was questionable, but there's probably a grain of truth among it:

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21646220-it-depends-what-you-study-not-where

"Engineers and computer scientists do best, earning an impressive 20-year annualised return of 12% on their college fees (the S&P 500 yielded just 7.8%). Engineering graduates from run-of-the-mill colleges do only slightly worse than those from highly selective ones."

But what's interesting is that couched that way, going to a better school could be viewed as letting you invest more at a high rate of return.  If you've got the $200k to toss around, going to <name-brand-school-here> (I won't be crass enough to pimp my own department, as tempting as it is) could be a solid choice, because it lets you put $200k in at 12%, vs going to local-state-school and only "getting" to invest 60k at 12%.

That said, I'm personally with you.  I think it's far more important to find a field where you come closer to hitting the holy trinity of employment (something people want to pay for, something you enjoy, something that adds value to the world) than to go to the most expensive machine in the hospital -- er, sorry, the most expensive college around.

For the grad school-bound, there's also the reality that where you do your Ph.D. makes a much bigger difference than where you did your undergrad, and in the engineering fields, at least, the Ph.D. is a "paid" position, as long as you disregard all the money you're not making by going to work immediately. :)  Going to a top school is useful for getting into a Ph.D. program, but a star student from a state school is very likely to do well.

(I won't disagree about the super-prestige level, either, at least in STEM.  It opens a lot of doors - and the fin aid packages are often pretty decent.)

Thanks, that was interesting! Although I was saddened to see that the ROI on a science degree is more on par with humanities than engineering. Though, perhaps that's because most science jobs actually require a masters or higher at this point? Interesting idea that more expensive education could be seen as investing more at the same ROI. I'd never thought to consider it that way!

But while I myself am in engineering and think STEM majors are great choices, I do think we undervalue certain jobs/majors (teachers and social workers come to mind), as well as the power of humanities and arts as a whole. Technology can solve a lot of problems, but without input from the humanities it won't help us understand or fix mental illness, inequality, racism, intolerance, etc. Even communication: I bet we all think that Google Translate and voice recognition are awesome technologies...but underlying all that is the work of language experts and linguists figuring out how language is structured. People like my friend doing a PhD in French, who is studying how vowels are expressed in different francophone countries (with very scientific methods including voice recording and statistical analysis, mind you). I think there might be issues with how the education in these subjects is delivered, right now, but the subjects are sound and important. It would be ignorant to say we don't need people studying this (to be very clear: not saying you are! Just that some people do.).

Incidentally, I was going to posit that elite institutions are more important for liberal arts majors than STEM, but I guess that doesn't hold up...interestingly, it looks like the worst possible investments are some universities with 40-60% admissions rates, where the ROI dips deeply negative...perhaps because tuition is expensive and return is minimal, vs schools with near 100% acceptance, presumably state schools with lower tuition, therefore a small boost in earnings over a lifetime results in at least a modest return overall?

mozar

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2016, 05:32:40 PM »
Quote
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

I wasn't trying to knock anyone. It's just something to consider. A challenge if you will. People on here challenge me to take it to the next level all the time. Maybe because I live in a HCOL, but a house cleaner would cost me 200-300 a month. I can understand spending $30 to free up a morning every once in awhile. But I wouldn't spend even $30 every time for regular basic maintenance. For non-traumatized able-bodied people, routine tasks are worth trying.

On another note, I wish that there were time case studies.  People can give advice, face punches, on how people can spend time to reach their goals better.

BlueHouse

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2016, 06:24:02 PM »

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
This is not a great argument, IMO. Yep, you're an adult, so maybe you should work until you're 65 like most adults do. Oh, you have different priorities?  I see.

Cromacster

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #129 on: May 12, 2016, 06:43:31 AM »
I don'

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
This is not a great argument, IMO. Yep, you're an adult, so maybe you should work until you're 65 like most adults do. Oh, you have different priorities?  I see.

I guess I don't think those have anything to do with each other, but it might be a bad argument.

I still think it's crazy to have a cleaning person.  To me it means the individual has poorly allocated their resources in too much house and  too many possessions.

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #130 on: May 12, 2016, 07:02:23 AM »
I don'

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
This is not a great argument, IMO. Yep, you're an adult, so maybe you should work until you're 65 like most adults do. Oh, you have different priorities?  I see.

I guess I don't think those have anything to do with each other, but it might be a bad argument.

I still think it's crazy to have a cleaning person.  To me it means the individual has poorly allocated their resources in too much house and  too many possessions.

I think it's personal preference. Some people don't care if their house is extremely clean. They just declutter a bit and wipe a few things down and call it good. My wife loves the days the 2 person cleaning crew comes and spends 2 hours cleaning the house. We live in a 3 level townhouse by the way, not some overly extravagant mansion. It makes her very happy and to me is $100 well spent. How long would it take a one person crew(me) to clean it as well as them? Half the day? I like the ROI on my time of spending the money there.

I recently had my furnace and A/C unit looked at and the guy recommended a couple old components being replaced. For the 3 parts he quoted me about $1,500. I purchased the parts for $200 and plan to install myself(I've already done one which took 10 minutes). The remainder will probably take me an hour or two tops. I like that ROI on my time of doing it myself. I could take a condescending stance against people who pay large $$$ to HVAC techs for fairly simple things they could fix and call it very Unmustachian, but I don't.

Money is nice, but you can't take it with you. Everyone has to decide along the way what is worth spending money on for their own happiness. It's worth it for most people to spend some money, although I'm sure there are some people that are happiest cutting literally every non-essential expense and just watching the bank account grow. That's cool too. The answer is different for different people though. I don't think the point of this website is to facepunch anyone that posts about spending money on the non-essentials of life, but then again if that makes people happy who am I to argue.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 07:12:26 AM by anorman79 »

ariapluscat

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2016, 08:25:55 AM »
It's getting a little ::ahem:: catty in here.
thank you!

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2016, 08:58:51 PM »
I'm going to quote MMM, note, iPads are like maids.
Quote
Let’s suppose you want the latest iPad. You want it because it is convenient to be able to look at pictures and websites and books and play music around the house. Sure, you already have other computers that do those things, but the iPad is special because it lets you do them while holding it in one hand, sitting on the couch.

Wow, that couch is pretty convenient too, isn’t it? It is comfortable, enjoyable, convenient, and joyful to sit and lie on your couch. In fact, wouldn’t it be best to just lie on that couch all day? Forever? Yeah! Maybe you could even hook it up with a catheter and a bedpan, and a friend or robot could bring you all your food on the couch too. With each release, the latest iPad could be delivered to you, and you’d have the most convenient and comfortable and effort-free life ever.

Heres an MMM article, assume a maid is a robot with a motor, and instead you should use your own muscles instead of that robot
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

Goldielocks

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2016, 09:31:52 PM »

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

GAW,

I bet that she would be just as delighted if you spent 3 hours every Saturday morning cleaning, while she keeps up with the everyday work during the week... 

Goldielocks

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2016, 09:41:40 PM »
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

Well said.

It's the way he (I assume this is a man) phrased it...   That he chose to retain a cleaning service to make his wife happy....

NOT because he values his personal time more than cleaning, has cleaning allergies, is in a wheelchair, or works 80hr weeks.... but because it makes his wife happy....   

.....Dude,  she might even be happier, if you became the cleaning service, and you used the funds to go out for dinner together....   

a-scho

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2016, 11:33:50 PM »
"If you align your chakras, money will start flowing in. The universe provides."

Read that on a blog I stumbled onto the other day. All you have to do is stop stressing about money, meditate to align your chakras, and your money problems will disappear. Face, meet palm.

Pretty much similar to this but wrapped up in a little different packaging.

*cough The Secret cough*

I'll sometimes find The Secret at a library book sale for .25. I'll turn around and sell it on Ebay for 5.00

VaCPA

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2016, 04:28:03 AM »

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

GAW,

I bet that she would be just as delighted if you spent 3 hours every Saturday morning cleaning, while she keeps up with the everyday work during the week...

Some of you guys on this site are hilarious. So you purport to know what would make my wife happy better than I? Ok then..

Also what makes you think I want to spend 3 hours on a Saturday morning cleaning??? That would make me unhappy. Is the point of being Mustacian to maximize your bank account without any regard to your happiness?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 04:32:36 AM by anorman79 »

BlueHouse

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #137 on: May 13, 2016, 05:05:25 AM »
I can't believe we're rehashing the same old cleaning service arguments yet again in yet another thread.
Guys, if any mustachian would like to take on cleaning my house every two weeks, I will gladly pay you what I pay my cleaning service. I get 4 people for 1 hour to clean a four level row house. $100. Anybody looking for a side gig?  I live in Wash DC. Any takers? 

Dicey

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #138 on: May 13, 2016, 08:30:28 AM »
I resisted until now, b-b-b-b-but I can't stand it any more!

 I have an every-other-week housecleaning service. I also have Gold "status" at Starbucks.  I can't believe I'm that person now. What happened to me????

Oh, I'm FIRE and I can afford it. I still save plenty, so why not, now that the goal has been reached? I absolutely love the the whole house is spotless at the same time. It gives me an unexpected thrill every single time they finish.

Not mustachian you say? Well, I was frugal long before Pete coined the term. Discovering this site just made the last stages of my FIRE journey more fun. Now that I'm there, surprise! Selective splurging is not going to ruin me financially.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #139 on: May 13, 2016, 08:39:50 AM »
I resisted until now, b-b-b-b-but I can't stand it any more!

 I have an every-other-week housecleaning service. I also have Gold "status" at Starbucks.  I can't believe I'm that person now. What happened to me????

Oh, I'm FIRE and I can afford it. I still save plenty, so why not, now that the goal has been reached? I absolutely love the the whole house is spotless at the same time. It gives me an unexpected thrill every single time they finish.

Not mustachian you say? Well, I was frugal long before Pete coined the term. Discovering this site just made the last stages of my FIRE journey more fun. Now that I'm there, surprise! Selective splurging is not going to ruin me financially.

Me too. I didn't FIRE so I could spend all my time cleaning my house.


Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2016, 08:42:05 AM »
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians. We will just give you some basic math.

Lets say you spend $300/month on maids, if you were to do this work yourself, you'd be able to save an extra $3,600 per year, and need $90,000 less in your retirement accounts to sustain yourself when you retire. Lets also assume you currently have $500,000 in retirement accounts, make $100,000/year, are currently only saving $40,000/year. This would mean you need $1,500,000 to retire. You make the one simple change of doing your cleaning yourself, and you then reduce the amount of years you have to work from 25 more years to 20.8 years, reducing your working career by over 4 years.

You'll also be taking on more risk by being lazy and not doing things yourself, as the more people/things you are dependent on, the more risk you are taking on. It's like ERE says, if you are a master of all things, can do everything yourself, then you're almost guaranteed never to be broke. You could lose your job, make a bad investment and lose all your money, the stock market could crash, etc. You would still be fine because you can do it all.

Lets not forget the fact that if you have a maid, your children are more likely to be useless and spoiled pieces of s*** that everyone hates.

pbkmaine

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #141 on: May 13, 2016, 09:00:27 AM »
I clean my own house because it's very good exercise, at least the way I do it, and I dislike most forms of exercise. So I get stuff done, save money, get fit. Win win win.

boarder42

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #142 on: May 13, 2016, 09:11:48 AM »
whoa people who are FIREd have maids holy cow and i noticed 1 was 58 so you likely dont have kids at home anymore. questions galore

1. how big is your house
2. wtf are you doing all day everday you dont have time to pick up and clean once a week
3. i can understand the excuses for those who are not FIREd (kinda - not really but they are better)
4. i guess if you have the money who cares but i mean to each his own. 
5. we all FIRE so we can do whatever we want and watching a maid clean while i drink starbucks isnt my plan but i guess if those things make you happy.

Inaya

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #143 on: May 13, 2016, 09:22:44 AM »
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians.

It's not a cult, and MMM isn't our messiah. Everything (mostly) is open to interpretation, even what is considered "wasting money." He has a car and believes it to be worthwhile--that doesn't make non-car-ownership unmustachian just because it's not the way HE does it. He travels a lot via airborne germ incubation tubes--that doesn't automatically make travel expenditures mustachian just because MMM does it. Likewise, just because MMM doesn't hire maids, doesn't mean its inherently wasteful for everyone. And choosing to live a life with $30,000 annual expenses is not unmustachian just because MMM spends less every year.

I think there are really only a few "mustachian" ideals that aren't open to interpretation: 1) not being in debt or actively trying to get out of debt by trimming down all nonessentials; 2) saving as much as you deem necessary for the life/comfort/security you want, now and in the future; 3) being MINDFUL about all of your spending and prioritize spending according to your values so that you can make cuts if needed (e.g., debt scenario); 4) find ways to optimize your money and your life; 5) try to make the world a better place, even just a little.

And even these "tenets" or whatever you'd call them are pretty flexible. For instance, debt could be considered a non-emergency if the interest is lower than the interest you could make via investments.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #144 on: May 13, 2016, 09:53:51 AM »
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians.

It's not a cult, and MMM isn't our messiah. Everything (mostly) is open to interpretation, even what is considered "wasting money." He has a car and believes it to be worthwhile--that doesn't make non-car-ownership unmustachian just because it's not the way HE does it. He travels a lot via airborne germ incubation tubes--that doesn't automatically make travel expenditures mustachian just because MMM does it. Likewise, just because MMM doesn't hire maids, doesn't mean its inherently wasteful for everyone. And choosing to live a life with $30,000 annual expenses is not unmustachian just because MMM spends less every year.

I think there are really only a few "mustachian" ideals that aren't open to interpretation: 1) not being in debt or actively trying to get out of debt by trimming down all nonessentials; 2) saving as much as you deem necessary for the life/comfort/security you want, now and in the future; 3) being MINDFUL about all of your spending and prioritize spending according to your values so that you can make cuts if needed (e.g., debt scenario); 4) find ways to optimize your money and your life; 5) try to make the world a better place, even just a little.

And even these "tenets" or whatever you'd call them are pretty flexible. For instance, debt could be considered a non-emergency if the interest is lower than the interest you could make via investments.
I never said it was a cult, I said most people on this forum agree with him. People can disagree with any mustachian ideal, but I recommend not bringing up your disagreement of them on this forum unless you want to debate about it.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

might as well get a bed pan and a catheter too, your maids can change them and also bring you food, you can live on your couch forever and have free time.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 09:55:57 AM by Jeremy E. »

Warlord1986

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2016, 10:06:55 AM »
Anybody who has read any of Triple M's articles would know that cleaning maids are unmustachian. If you want to have the service, have the service. We can't stop you, it's really none of our business what you spend money on, and most of us aren't hardcore mustachians anyway (God knows I'm not). But don't pretend it's at all mustachian. At least be honest with yourself.

iris lily

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2016, 10:38:12 AM »
 I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2016, 10:59:48 AM »
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians. We will just give you some basic math.

Lets say you spend $300/month on maids, if you were to do this work yourself, you'd be able to save an extra $3,600 per year, and need $90,000 less in your retirement accounts to sustain yourself when you retire. Lets also assume you currently have $500,000 in retirement accounts, make $100,000/year, are currently only saving $40,000/year. This would mean you need $1,500,000 to retire. You make the one simple change of doing your cleaning yourself, and you then reduce the amount of years you have to work from 25 more years to 20.8 years, reducing your working career by over 4 years.

You'll also be taking on more risk by being lazy and not doing things yourself, as the more people/things you are dependent on, the more risk you are taking on. It's like ERE says, if you are a master of all things, can do everything yourself, then you're almost guaranteed never to be broke. You could lose your job, make a bad investment and lose all your money, the stock market could crash, etc. You would still be fine because you can do it all.

Lets not forget the fact that if you have a maid, your children are more likely to be useless and spoiled pieces of s*** that everyone hates.

LOL. MMM is not God and his articles aren't religious commandments. You're missing the point if you think someone can't spend money on things that bring them value.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2016, 11:10:40 AM »
I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

ketchup

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Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2016, 11:22:06 AM »
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians. We will just give you some basic math.

Lets say you spend $300/month on maids, if you were to do this work yourself, you'd be able to save an extra $3,600 per year, and need $90,000 less in your retirement accounts to sustain yourself when you retire. Lets also assume you currently have $500,000 in retirement accounts, make $100,000/year, are currently only saving $40,000/year. This would mean you need $1,500,000 to retire. You make the one simple change of doing your cleaning yourself, and you then reduce the amount of years you have to work from 25 more years to 20.8 years, reducing your working career by over 4 years.

You'll also be taking on more risk by being lazy and not doing things yourself, as the more people/things you are dependent on, the more risk you are taking on. It's like ERE says, if you are a master of all things, can do everything yourself, then you're almost guaranteed never to be broke. You could lose your job, make a bad investment and lose all your money, the stock market could crash, etc. You would still be fine because you can do it all.

Lets not forget the fact that if you have a maid, your children are more likely to be useless and spoiled pieces of s*** that everyone hates.

LOL. MMM is not God and his articles aren't religious commandments. You're missing the point if you think someone can't spend money on things that bring them value.
He's just a carpenter with some good ideas to share.  Hey wait a minute...

/makes the sign of the mustache in Christian sign-of-the-cross style