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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: heybro on May 04, 2016, 10:54:45 PM

Title: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: heybro on May 04, 2016, 10:54:45 PM
What are some of the common things you hear for people to do to save money?  Some of them are so overplayed they drive me nuts.  Mostly, I dislike them because they are so not anywhere near FIRE concepts!

1. Cut Starbucks. 

I hear this all the time.  Cutting out 5 bucks a day can save you thousands!  If your biggest selling point is to tell people to stop spending 5 bucks every day, and this is what they are to base their future life on, then it is like telling someone who wants to go to Harvard that they should 'try to stay out of summer school.'  I am all for not wasting 5 bucks a day on coffee, but the people who use this line, generally have nothing else to say.  If it weren't for all the money wasted on coffee, I think they'd have no financial advice to give.  It's not like they are then asking you to consider giving up your car.

2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!

What about you?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Johnez on May 05, 2016, 12:37:46 AM
Ya know, I kind of agree with the Starbucks logic there, but you have to hit the low hanging fruit first. Let's say you work 250 days a year, multiplied by $5. This is actually a lot of money. $1250. Now save that amount of money every year (bumping it up 2% a year for inflation of course) in an index fund returning an average of 7% a year for 30 years. What do you get? $157,000. That's a lot of freaking money. Of course, anyone bringing these numbers to the table has a LOT more to say than "Cut Starbucks," so you're probably right there.

Ok, had to get that out of the way.

How about this: save your money. The compound interest fairies will grow it if you put it all in the magical bank box. Ok, maybe one could actually earn interest from a bank in the old days, but *saving* money doesn't actually make it grow. INVESTING it does. The most profound idea that totally changed my view of money was this-your money can work harder than you. Put those $10 bills to work! They work 24/7/365. Having them sit around COSTS you money. Spending them frivolously costs your future. Investing money isn't spending it-it is purchasing your future, time, freedom.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Primm on May 05, 2016, 12:52:25 AM
In person, from a "financial adviser" employed by my former bank.

Context - I'd just split up from my ex and we'd divided the assets, leaving me with a whopping great $20k to "invest". I was young, stupid, stressed, and had two small children.

He ran me through the various investment vehicles available in the bank, and then came out with this pearler when I even suggested that I might need the money down the track. You know, for retirement or something. Bear in mind he was about 5 years younger than me.

"Don't get too hung up on your retirement. That's what superannuation is for. Anyway, you're still young enough that you'll probably meet somebody else and you won't have to worry about the money side of things".

That was in 2003. 13 years ago and I still remember the look on his face when my jaw dropped and I walked out without saying another word. I knew nothing about money, but I knew that was wrong. So very wrong.

Actually with the benefit of hindsight, do you think that may have been a seriously dodgy attempt at a pickup line? I've never pondered that before...
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ooeei on May 05, 2016, 06:19:42 AM
Renting is just throwing your money away, buy a house!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MandyM on May 05, 2016, 06:41:11 AM
Renting is just throwing your money away, buy a house!

+1. I have been a homeowner since I was 22 and currently have two (one is a rental). I actively talk people out of buying a house all of the time because they have terrible reasons for wanting one. This is usually one of those terrible reasons.

Anyway, you're still young enough that you'll probably meet somebody else and you won't have to worry about the money side of things".

This made me cringe. I'm so glad you just got up and walked out, that was the perfect response. And I don't think he was hitting on you, he was just being shitty without even realizing it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 05, 2016, 07:01:45 AM
people who drink starbucks daily have a lot of other bad financial decisions in their life typically. so cutting a daily outsourcing of coffee is a very good first step towards saving more for retirement even if it is only 1250 a year plus the amount of time you spend waiting on your coffee.  small steps towards greater independence. 

in terms of WORST financial advice - stop buying coffee from an over priced store daily is very very far from it.

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Dezrah on May 05, 2016, 07:06:49 AM
Anyway, you're still young enough that you'll probably meet somebody else and you won't have to worry about the money side of things".

That was in 2003. 13 years ago and I still remember the look on his face when my jaw dropped and I walked out without saying another word. I knew nothing about money, but I knew that was wrong. So very wrong.


Why would you leave?  He was just implying you were a fine piece-of-ass who could easily get a sugar daddy if you needed to.  Who would want to worry their pretty head about money when gold digging is so easy?

Seriously though, you're response was absolutely perfect.  What was that look on his face?  Was he ashamed?  Indignant?  Confused?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: nereo on May 05, 2016, 07:12:19 AM
The worst financial advice I've heard (repeated through many different sources) is that you shouldn't try to save in your teens and twenties.  The more rational of the arguments for this is that your best earning years are in front of you and whatever you could save will be a fraction of what you can save in your 40s and 50s. The more dubious arguments focus on the whole "YOLO" concept.  My two best counters are that compounding works wonders when given time and overspending now leads to a lifelong pattern of overspending.


1. Cut Starbucks. 

2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

I'll take issue with both of these.  I'm certainly sick of hearing about the 'latte factor' in the mainstream media, but I'd hardly consider this to be "the worst financial advice."  It does address a key component that so many Americans overlook; small routine purchases (or weekly/monthly subscriptions) add up to a crap-ton of money over just a few years.

Regarding the mortgages: I've known several people (including my parents) who have chosen to refinance and extend their mortgages, in part because of the mortgage write off (combined with the absurdly low interest rates). I will do the same thing if rates are <4% when I come close to paying off my mortgage.
If you are buying a house just FOR the interest write off - well yes, that's a bit silly.  It should, however, be a factor in your home-purchasing decision.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: AmandaS1989 on May 05, 2016, 07:16:19 AM
Worst I've heard is 'You're always going to have debt so why worry about paying it off?' Oh my God I just want to scream and gnash my teeth in anger when I hear that.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Orvell on May 05, 2016, 07:30:49 AM
"If you buy a house it should be a 'stretch' because your salary will probably rise over the years. Worst thing you could do is end up with a house that's too small when could have bought more than just a starter house."
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: JZinCO on May 05, 2016, 07:31:09 AM
I'm pretty sure I weekly get coworkers, bosses, etc telling me to buy a house.

"Buy a house. It's a best thing to do to grow your wealth."
"Better get in now before houses get too unaffordable."
"Just buy it, wait a few years, sell it and buy a better house. You can't lose."
"My house value keeps beating stocks. You need to take money out of your crappy 401K and buy a house."
"You're almost 30 and you don't own a house?! It's time to be an adult."
"My advisor has a phd in economics and told me to sell everything and buy a house. You think YOU'RE smarter than an economist?!"
"2008 is over. Policies have been fixed and housing is a safe return again."

I also work in a university.. in the hard sciences...sigh. I try to say that I have no reason to expect anything other mean returns on real estate or stocks but they also resort to something along the lines of why our local RE market is special. I can usually defuse the situation by saying "I prefer cash flow" because I know that, since all their money is going to PITI, they can understand. They still pity me as uneducated though which is the worst.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Frankies Girl on May 05, 2016, 07:39:35 AM
UBS guy when I told him I was taking over my accounts and self-managing from then on: "I would never advise a layman to manage their own accounts; that's like someone that is not a doctor trying to perform surgery on themselves" and then going on to imply that I was just a silly woman and incapable of learning the complex and challenging mysteries of investing.

And he also repeatedly tried to get me to invest more money with him. The hard sell started ramping up within a few weeks of taking over accounts left to me by my father. So he was pressuring me (very hard sell about how he was a genius and would make me way more money than any of the other investment houses out there) to make huge money decisions right after a major life change/death in the family.

Total asshat. I reported him to the company about his hard sell tactics when I closed out and moved my account.



And I have never been able to write off a dime of mortgage interest, but then my house is a very small and not expensive one.

But I do agree that people that do the coffee thing are usually the same ones that have tons of bad money habits that they need to become aware of; that's the point of saying "cut out the Starbucks" it's a reframing/reminder of all the "little" stuff those spendy folks blow through every week without even thinking. Like car washes, lunch runs, mani/pedi, blowouts... stuff they forget about because it's so commonplace to them and they think of them as needs instead of wants.

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 05, 2016, 07:48:39 AM
I'm pretty sure I weekly get coworkers, bosses, etc telling me to buy a house.

"Buy a house. It's a best thing to do to grow your wealth."

The sad part is this is somewhat true for a lot of Americans. It typically doesn't apply to people who go on financial/investing msg boards, but a lot of people are TERRIBLE at investing. Like got scared and sold in 2009 because the market tanked and didn't buy again until things looks rosy years later. One thing a house does force you to do is buy & hold(unless you're foreclosed on which admittedly does happen). I think the key is buying well within means, and only buying when you're staying put for awhile. For a lot of people just doing that is a better wealth building tool than trying to invest in the stock market or mutual funds.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Platypuses on May 05, 2016, 07:49:24 AM
"I financed this 65" TV so I could rebuild my credit score"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Miskatonic on May 05, 2016, 07:50:13 AM
"If you align your chakras, money will start flowing in. The universe provides."

Read that on a blog I stumbled onto the other day. All you have to do is stop stressing about money, meditate to align your chakras, and your money problems will disappear. Face, meet palm.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: matchewed on May 05, 2016, 07:57:15 AM
"If you align your chakras, money will start flowing in. The universe provides."

Read that on a blog I stumbled onto the other day. All you have to do is stop stressing about money, meditate to align your chakras, and your money problems will disappear. Face, meet palm.

Pretty much similar to this but wrapped up in a little different packaging.

*cough The Secret cough*
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Fishindude on May 05, 2016, 08:02:37 AM
A friend told me .... "I figure you're always going to have a car loan, if you want to have a decent vehicle".
He's 55+ years old and still thinks that way.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: JZinCO on May 05, 2016, 08:06:41 AM
I'm pretty sure I weekly get coworkers, bosses, etc telling me to buy a house.

"Buy a house. It's a best thing to do to grow your wealth."

The sad part is this is somewhat true for a lot of Americans. It typically doesn't apply to people who go on financial/investing msg boards, but a lot of people are TERRIBLE at investing. Like got scared and sold in 2009 because the market tanked and didn't buy again until things looks rosy years later. One thing a house does force you to do is buy & hold(unless you're foreclosed on which admittedly does happen). I think the key is buying well within means, and only buying when you're staying put for awhile. For a lot of people just doing that is a better wealth building tool than trying to invest in the stock market or mutual funds.
The frustrating part is the sincerity with which I am told it is the BEST way.
As in, sell everything and buy a house because there is no more optimal way to grow wealth than home ownership.
Essentially I have been told numerous times that it was a good idea to speculate on rising home prices. I know real estate is not the most efficient marketplace, but to a degree, wouldn't future home price growth be somewhat priced into current home prices already anyway? According to zillow, sellers are favored to buyers by a spread of 32 to 1.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: sonjak on May 05, 2016, 08:21:14 AM
"If you align your chakras, money will start flowing in. The universe provides."

Read that on a blog I stumbled onto the other day. All you have to do is stop stressing about money, meditate to align your chakras, and your money problems will disappear. Face, meet palm.
This is how my sister is.  She has said "we don't make enough to have a budget" and really she believes that if she makes and sticks to a budget, she's focusing on lack of abundance which will just shut her off from all the abundance the universe has to give her.  So they are living on the edge, spending way too much on crystals and energy work "to remove blocks that are preventing the money from flowing" instead of getting a job or spending less on non-essentials.

It's frustrating but also sad for me because she is a genuinely good person and it feels like watching someone you love bang their head on the wall and complain about the pain but not listening when you tell them to just take a couple steps back so they can't reach the wall.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ketchup on May 05, 2016, 08:34:48 AM
The brand of "financial advice" that focuses on "deals" can drive me insane.  No, you're not "saving" money.  That's not how the Force works!

A manager where I work still thinks his 2014 Dodge Challenger Fancypants Big Penis Edition is going to be worth what he paid for it (new) when it's 10 years old.

Various flavors of "Buy a house no matter what." are indeed quite alarming.  My parents got divorced three years ago; they sold their house, and afterwards my mom bought a small house and my dad is renting a place.  My coworker said "He's renting!?  That's not very frugal!"   ....He's in his late 50s, self-employed part-time doing work he loves, isn't sure if he's going to remain in the area after his daughter finishes high school, could retire today, has a seven-figure net worth, and essentially doesn't spend any money.  But no, renting means he's not being frugal.

"Pregnant? Better buy an SUV soon!"  I wish I was making that up.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: forummm on May 05, 2016, 08:44:48 AM
If you give to XYZ ministry, God will bless you and return the gift many fold.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Warlord1986 on May 05, 2016, 08:46:49 AM
"You bought the car? You should have leased it."

Spoken to me by a friend's husband. They are in debt up to their eyeballs.

"God wants you to give me money."

Television Evangelist. Otherwise known as modern money lenders in the temple.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: trashmanz on May 05, 2016, 08:51:36 AM
"I financed this 65" TV so I could rebuild my credit score"

At 0% interest then that is ok
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: little_brown_dog on May 05, 2016, 09:17:11 AM
"I like leasing cars because then you get to pick a new one every couple years..."

"You don't need to worry about paying off student loans, everyone has them"

(When discussing finances and the basic must do tasks like keeping an efund, eliminating debt, and saving for retirement) -
"That's unrealistic for most people except the really wealthy, no one can follow that advice"

All spoken by upper middle class people with college educations, good incomes, and plenty of money to spend on vacations, expensive food, and other luxuries...
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: AmandaS1989 on May 05, 2016, 09:18:25 AM
I hear the student loan one all the time. I just want to punch people when they say it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Zikoris on May 05, 2016, 09:30:31 AM
Many years ago I had a coworker telling me I should switch from using credit cards to a bank line of credit. His reasoning: It's "easier" because you can just keep using your debit card, and when your checking account hits $0 (!!!) it just automatically switches to your LOC. So you don't get your card declined, or have to monitor your account balance (!!!). Also, lower interest rates.

I wasn't even Mustachian at the time, but I was in awe at the insanity. I think I mumbled something about not paying interest to begin with, and stopping spending if you have no money in your account. But wow.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: JZinCO on May 05, 2016, 09:41:30 AM
Many years ago I had a coworker telling me I should switch from using credit cards to a bank line of credit. His reasoning: It's "easier" because you can just keep using your debit card, and when your checking account hits $0 (!!!) it just automatically switches to your LOC. So you don't get your card declined, or have to monitor your account balance (!!!). Also, lower interest rates.

I wasn't even Mustachian at the time, but I was in awe at the insanity. I think I mumbled something about not paying interest to begin with, and stopping spending if you have no money in your account. But wow.
Sounds like CW should have listened to this financial advice from SNL 'Don't spend money you don't have.':http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/dont-buy-stuff/n12020 (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/dont-buy-stuff/n12020)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: jorjor on May 05, 2016, 09:46:23 AM
"If You Have Savings In Your 20s, You're Doing Something Wrong"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: RonMcCord on May 05, 2016, 10:34:43 AM
I was complaining I couldn't afford to rent my own apartment and someone told me I should take out a loan from the bank to pay for the rent. 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: opnfld on May 05, 2016, 10:44:41 AM
"You can always make more money."  - as justification for spending.

and

"Stop making credit card payments" - in anticipation of economic collapse at the depth of the financial crisis.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Silrossi46 on May 05, 2016, 11:14:00 AM
" I don't have the money to buy my daughter a brand new car so i'm borrowing it from my annuity at work"   "My HR department told me this was the best way to go"

Justification=   I bought my son a new car and it wouldn't be fair if i didn't buy her one as well.   It's my money in the annuity anyways.   

Spoken by a 60 year old with a 294,000 dollar mortgage with 28 years remaining on a 310,000 home that was refinanced 12 times to finance other silly purchases.    0 money saved and retirement not even in the realm of possibilities any time soon.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Daisyedwards800 on May 05, 2016, 11:18:19 AM
1. Cut Starbucks. 

As far as the Starbucks advice, "The Latte Factor", this advice actually sort of helped me get started.  I read a book by David Bach called The Automatic Millionaire and his chart of the compound interest from age 22 on changed my perspective.  And he coined the latte factor right?

Secondly, interestingly, sometimes you get very good advice coupled with very bad advice.  For example, the ideas in Rich Dad, Poor Dad about not depending only on your wage income for wealth are really quite genius.  His methods are bad (leveraging yourself with too much risk, real estate etc.), but overall the idea of generating passive income made a huge impression on me.  It is nice to be able to distinguish the bad advice from the good.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 05, 2016, 11:30:22 AM
You've had a kid now!  You need a minivan/SUV/aircraft carrier/death star because the ridiculously sized stroller/huge amount of children's stuff/kid's car seat will never fit in your Corolla.

For vacations my Dad, Mom, sister, dog and I all managed to do 13 hr drives in a Ford Tempo when I was a kid.  My wife and I have somehow managed with our (more spacious than a Tempo) '05 Corolla, single child, and dog.  :P
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cycling Stache on May 05, 2016, 11:31:17 AM
YOLO. 

As applied to money, it's often a disastrously bad idea and encourages every kind of splurge purchase.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: frugaliknowit on May 05, 2016, 11:59:28 AM
1.  Late 2014:  Buy oil stocks.  They are cheap and will recover smartly.

2.  Leasing a vehicle frees up capital to invest more (LOL!).

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: mozar on May 05, 2016, 12:27:57 PM
I've heard a lot of bad financial advice over my lifetime and its kind of depressing to think about. But a couple of gems stick out:
2007: You need to buy a house mozar! Prices will always go up (I was in grad school with 100k in student loans at this time)
2013: You are crazy for buying a house mozar! Prices will never recover! Yeah, my house has appreciated almost 20% in 2.5 years. Still laughing all the way to the bank on that one.

Regarding saving vs investing, I think that's really hard for people to grasp. If you ask someone what's more likely, that you always have a job, or that companies will keep innovating? Most people think its the former, where it's really the latter.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: cchrissyy on May 05, 2016, 12:30:28 PM
I was once test-driving a car with an obnoxious salesman.  He wanted to talk about their financing offer, nothing special, maybe it was 5%?  anyway, I tried to shut him up about that by saying even if I did decide to buy, I would pay cash.   

Then he told me it was smarter to keep my cash because getting the loan would guarantee I'd make 5%.  Wait what?!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: lightmyfire on May 05, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
"Mortgages and student loans are GOOD debt."
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BBub on May 05, 2016, 12:47:19 PM
'Outsource all tasks that cost less than your hourly wages'
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: AZDude on May 05, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
Not really advice, but stories of how people justified terrible decisions:

"I got an ARM because it was the only way to afford the payments on his house"

"I got a good, not great interest rate on this(refers to new SUV), its only 12%"

"I took out a 401(k) loan to put a down payment on a new house across the street from where I live now. Its much bigger, so we will have more room. I can't sell the old house because it is underwater, so I'm going to rent it out..."


Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: whiskeystache89 on May 05, 2016, 01:01:49 PM
Someone to our new hire: "I put my retirement in different sectors. Some in oil and gas some in biotech"

We have access to Vanguard Institutional index funds...fortunately emailed her Jcollins stock series and it helped her out.

From friend: "don't invest because we are in the final crisis of capitalism because ROBOTS"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 05, 2016, 01:03:01 PM
My Brother: "It doesn't matter how much we put on credit cards because we're going to make a ton of money after college!"

Couple I Know: "There's no point in trying to save up enough to retire early because you never know when some kind of disaster will just eat up all your money."

Several People: "I invested before a big crash and lost a ton of money (multiple times!). Now I won't touch investments!"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 05, 2016, 01:04:14 PM
"Mortgages and student loans are GOOD debt."

now its a good quote.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: cats on May 05, 2016, 01:12:36 PM
"Don't worry about saving money now because you'll be earning a high salary later"

some version of this popped up routinely when I was in grad school.  It was true to a degree, but was often the thinking behind some stupid decisions (e.g. taking out loans and eating out regularly or renting an excessively nice apartment).  I thought it was kind of silly b/c grad school is one time in your life when you can get away with being really cheap and it's not considered particularly weird.  Also, most of us were likely to head off into post-docs that didn't pay all *that* much more than our stipend.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Frugal D on May 05, 2016, 01:19:57 PM
"Mortgages and student loans are GOOD debt."

Haha. +1

Also, "you can worry about saving for retirement when you get older."
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Ramblin' Ma'am on May 05, 2016, 01:26:13 PM
"Credit card debt is good because it helps your credit score."
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 05, 2016, 01:37:22 PM
"Mortgages and student loans are GOOD debt."

Haha. +1

Also, "you can worry about saving for retirement when you get older."

mortgages are good debt.

if you're going to own a house and you have both choices of paying in cash or taking out a mortgage and investing the cash at today's interest rates in the US you both
1. speed up your time to FIRE
AND
2. increase your success rate in retirement
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: rvg on May 05, 2016, 01:59:56 PM
I was once test-driving a car with an obnoxious salesman.  He wanted to talk about their financing offer, nothing special, maybe it was 5%?  anyway, I tried to shut him up about that by saying even if I did decide to buy, I would pay cash.   

Then he told me it was smarter to keep my cash because getting the loan would guarantee I'd make 5%.  Wait what?!

My mother went on a couple test drives and was told "Invest your down payment and lease the car instead, you'll earn 7% on your down payment!" by a sales manager.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: galliver on May 05, 2016, 02:09:47 PM
Never actually had this directed at me, but I know too many HS/college students hear "never, ever, EVER get a credit card!" instead of "never, ever, EVER carry a balance on a credit card." I respectfully disagree with Dave Ramsey in that the credit score game is here to stay, so you might as well learn (and teach your children) to win it.

Also not directed at me but I see/hear it: "You should move out of your parents' house because you're [age]." With the optional addendum "I've been on my own since [age] and it made me who I am today!" Plenty of families around the world make multi-generational homes work in a respectful way. Do what's right for your situation--financially and emotionally.

This one I think I did hear but disregarded: "Go to the best/most prestigious school you can get into." While I think it can totally make sense to bend over backward to attend a truly elite institution (e.g. Ivy, MIT), particularly when the price premium isn't extremely large (say, $5k/year, maybe $10k, but not $50k), I do believe below that point the rankings break down in utility and the education and name recognition you'd get from a given institution is mostly the same as the next one on the list. Once you get below that super-prestige level, it's time to consider value. On the flip side of this, some of the best advice I got was to not evaluate the cost of attending a particular school until after fin aid offers came back. The state school was NOT the cheapest for me (I got a merit scholarship elsewhere) so it saddens me when parents seem to be discouraging their kids from even *applying* elsewhere; maybe it's not common but you could be missing out on a good deal.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: zephyr911 on May 05, 2016, 02:10:20 PM
What are some of the common things you hear for people to do to save money?  Some of them are so overplayed they drive me nuts.  Mostly, I dislike them because they are so not anywhere near FIRE concepts!

1. Cut Starbucks. 

I hear this all the time.  Cutting out 5 bucks a day can save you thousands!  If your biggest selling point is to tell people to stop spending 5 bucks every day, and this is what they are to base their future life on, then it is like telling someone who wants to go to Harvard that they should 'try to stay out of summer school.'  I am all for not wasting 5 bucks a day on coffee, but the people who use this line, generally have nothing else to say.  If it weren't for all the money wasted on coffee, I think they'd have no financial advice to give.  It's not like they are then asking you to consider giving up your car.
I beg to differ. The point of this exercise is to show that small changes add up to big differences over time. Of course, big changes add up even faster, but for someone who has a whole slew of entrenched bad habits, it can be easier to pick just one small one at first. Cascading results can produce positive feedback to encourage greater change down the line.

Quote
2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!

What about you?
Yeah, I have a friend who lives just 2 blocks away in a huge, beautiful house for that very reason. I wish I'd known him when he was buying.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 05, 2016, 02:24:48 PM

2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!

What about you?

thats just bad math.  if we assume 20k in interest and probably 5k in property tax or more,  you're looking at 25k in deductions.  or 6250 a year in tax savings.  even if we take out the standard deduction of 12600 its still 3100 bucks off of the 20k in interest. 

i'd remortgage my house if i owned it outright at todays rates. to get the interest right off and the added inflation security.  you're coming out way way ahead numbers wise not owning a home right now.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: sheepstache on May 05, 2016, 02:47:45 PM
"Pay off the smallest debts first so you can snowball them into the other payments once they're paid off. That's mathematically better than paying off the highest-interest loans first."
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 05, 2016, 02:54:43 PM
"Pay off the smallest debts first so you can snowball them into the other payments once they're paid off. That's mathematically better than paying off the highest-interest loans first."

Ha! I was ready to argue until you threw "mathematically" in there. It can be an effectively emotionally better way than paying off the highest-interest loans :)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: galliver on May 05, 2016, 02:56:22 PM
"Pay off the smallest debts first so you can snowball them into the other payments once they're paid off. That's mathematically better than paying off the highest-interest loans first."

Do people actually say that's mathematically better? Because I've mostly heard it's psychologically beneficial (therefore perhaps more likely to work overall).
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: nereo on May 05, 2016, 03:02:48 PM
"Pay off the smallest debts first so you can snowball them into the other payments once they're paid off. That's mathematically better than paying off the highest-interest loans first."

Do people actually say that's mathematically better? Because I've mostly heard it's psychologically beneficial (therefore perhaps more likely to work overall).

I've heard the mathematical (with a side of behavioral) several times.  Their reasoning seems to be that no one who is in debt will actually stick to a payoff schedule if they don't see immediate progress (behavioral) so it's mathematically better (when factoring in defaults) to use the snowball method.

My best counter to this quasi-argument is that people who quickly pay off small debts suddenly have an increased cashflow, which they (behaviorally) use to bump up their lifestyle a bit, making it even more mathematically dubious.  If it takes you 6+ months to kill a large, high-interest debt that behavior is more likely to have become a habit.  Meh.... I won't fault people for choosing the debt payoff method that works best for them.  Either is certainly better than "YOLO!!!!!!!!"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: sheepstache on May 05, 2016, 03:05:47 PM
Exactly, it was presented as a mathematical argument :) I'm down with the psychological argument for snowballing.  But it was actually a fairly intelligent, analytical person I was talking to who was convinced it was the mathematically better option. I think her accountant told her to do it that way and she made the assumption it was because it was the quickest without running the numbers herself.  When I brought it up she was like, "but then as you pay off the smaller debts you roll those payments into the larger ones." Right, but still...
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: thd7t on May 05, 2016, 03:05:57 PM
Never actually had this directed at me, but I know too many HS/college students hear "never, ever, EVER get a credit card!" instead of "never, ever, EVER carry a balance on a credit card." I respectfully disagree with Dave Ramsey in that the credit score game is here to stay, so you might as well learn (and teach your children) to win it.
Credit cards have a pretty small impact on your credit rating. I didn't get one until my mid-30's, but had a credit rating of over 800 with all 3 agencies. Credit cards are a tool, but not as important as you imply.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: galliver on May 05, 2016, 03:29:45 PM
Never actually had this directed at me, but I know too many HS/college students hear "never, ever, EVER get a credit card!" instead of "never, ever, EVER carry a balance on a credit card." I respectfully disagree with Dave Ramsey in that the credit score game is here to stay, so you might as well learn (and teach your children) to win it.
Credit cards have a pretty small impact on your credit rating. I didn't get one until my mid-30's, but had a credit rating of over 800 with all 3 agencies. Credit cards are a tool, but not as important as you imply.

Hmm. To the best of my knowledge, the thing the credit report is most attuned to showing is regular, on-time payments over time; it doesn't matter TOO much what types of accounts they're on (yes, there is some benefit to more accounts and possibly diversification). I can't really advocate other types of common credit: student loan, car loan, mortgage for your average student building credit--taking out student loans, or buying a car (and taking out a loan), or god forbid buying a house when you don't need one would be stupid. But everyone needs to pay for stuff in day-to-day life--groceries, textbooks, plane tickets home, TP, etc. why not build the length of your credit history while you're at it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: RL12 on May 05, 2016, 03:39:50 PM
My wife and I had our first child two months ago. As I'm pulling up in our four door sedan to load up wife and baby, the nurse pushing my wife's wheelchair looks at the car in astonishment and says "That's your car?? You better get a SUV fast." I loaded everything up and replied back that it looks like everything fits.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Zikoris on May 05, 2016, 04:11:59 PM
"Pay off the smallest debts first so you can snowball them into the other payments once they're paid off. That's mathematically better than paying off the highest-interest loans first."

I think paying off little debts first MIGHT make sense mathematically if the person has unstable/fluctuating income, because of how much it helps with cash flow - by wiping out a bunch of payments, they might be able to avoid late fees and such in a lower income month.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: sheepstache on May 05, 2016, 05:15:01 PM
"Pay off the smallest debts first so you can snowball them into the other payments once they're paid off. That's mathematically better than paying off the highest-interest loans first."

I think paying off little debts first MIGHT make sense mathematically if the person has unstable/fluctuating income, because of how much it helps with cash flow - by wiping out a bunch of payments, they might be able to avoid late fees and such in a lower income month.

That's true! The bare minimum you have to pay each month goes down the fewer payments you have altogether and there's an advantage to lower fixed costs. By "better," though, this person meant faster assuming they paid the same amount (which covered minimum payments) every month.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 05, 2016, 05:40:33 PM
1. Cut Starbucks. 

I hear this all the time.  Cutting out 5 bucks a day can save you thousands!  If your biggest selling point is to tell people to stop spending 5 bucks every day, and this is what they are to base their future life on, then it is like telling someone who wants to go to Harvard that they should 'try to stay out of summer school.'  I am all for not wasting 5 bucks a day on coffee, but the people who use this line, generally have nothing else to say.  If it weren't for all the money wasted on coffee, I think they'd have no financial advice to give.  It's not like they are then asking you to consider giving up your car.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Kaybee on May 09, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
2014 Dodge Challenger Fancypants Big Penis Edition

I choked and spit water all over my computer when I read this (the computer's still okay). :D
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MrsPete on May 09, 2016, 03:19:52 PM
Have extra money deducted from your paycheck every month so you'll get a big tax refund. 

Put this on your credit card so you can get rewards points.  (No mention of paying off the balance every month.) 

Any college degree is worthwhile!  (Sociology or Theater vs. Nursing or Accounting ... um, no.)

College debt is good debt!  (Oxymoron)

You should finance ___ to build your credit rating.  (Screw financial stability!  Borrow so you can raise a number.)

You're always going to have a car payment, so you might as well drive what you want.  Or, the more general:  If you're going to make payments on it anyway, you might as well get what you want. 

Trade in your car for a newer model.  As long as your payment is in the same price range, it didn't really cost you anything.  (Hmmm, can you show me those numbers on paper?) 

Leasing a car makes sense because you don't pay for the taxes and ...  (Okay, I'm pretty sure something else is included, but I don't actually know what.)

Bigger cars cost more, but they're safer. 

Go ahead and get ___ accessory.  It's only another $25 per month.

When are you going to have 5K to pay for marble counter tops?  Go ahead and get them now -- and the upgraded appliances and backyard fence too; that way they'll be rolled into your mortgage.   (And you'll pay for them how many times over?) 

Granite counter tops are outdated -- you need to replace them!  (Should you really throw away things for which you're still paying?)

Putting change in a jar is a good way to save.  Or, the related:  Save all your $1 bills.  (And when you have no small change, you go straight to the ATM?) 

Your kids are only young once, so go ahead and buy them ____.  (Isn't that a good reason to start saving for their educations NOW?) 

Encourage your kids in sports.  Spend on equipment, traveling teams, private coaches, and they'll win athletic scholarships. 

Your kids'll get a complex/lack self-confidence if you only buy them used stuff. 

Your kids feet won't grow right if you put them in used shoes. 

Everyone's in debt.  (Seriously, at a college fair a college financial aid "professional" determined to engage me in a conversation about loans told me that EVERYONE borrows for college.  I looked around the crowded gymnasium and said, "Really?  Everyone?  You're telling me that not a single person in this gym -- and we're talking thousands -- not a single person was smart enough to put away money for his kid's education?  27,000 people attend this university, and not a single one is able to pay?   Really?  Really?  'Cause I can write a check for my kid's education, and I seriously doubt I'm the only one." Maybe I should've dressed better for this college fair; maybe I looked destitute -- the guy clearly thought I was lying.) 

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: redbird on May 09, 2016, 04:06:02 PM
I lived in Hawaii for 3 years for a job and co-workers of mine kept trying to tell me that I needed to buy a house. You're really looking at close to $1M for decent houses on Oahu. I knew I was only going to live there for 3 years. I didn't see how it was really worth the time and effort and cost to buy a house. But they insisted that I was losing money by not building equity for those 3 years.

Yet pretty much all of them who did buy had a higher mortgage than my monthly rent was and I didn't have to deal with maintenance (mold is a big problem in Hawaii) and I could move immediately with nothing left behind when I got a job off-island...
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: aspiringnomad on May 09, 2016, 06:41:29 PM
You should aim to spend your 20s accumulating debt, your 30s paying down that debt, and your 40s starting to accumulate wealth.

Some unmustachian advice from an older co-worker to 24-year old me. I remember thinking, wow that seems like a low bar, but what do I know?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: DebtFreeBy25 on May 09, 2016, 09:08:00 PM
Two huge lies were sold to my generation (80s babies):

1. "Going to college is a great investment." This claim is usually backed by some statistic stating how much more college graduates make than non-graduates. Nearly everyone was encouraged to go to a four year college regardless of interests, talent or ability to pay. No one really thought twice about student loan debt before the 2008 recession.

2. "Everyone has debt." The belief that it's possible to live debt-free is almost unheard of in the mainstream culture. Being debt-free including a home before the age of 40 strikes most people as impossible or elitist. The past few generations have been raised to accept debt as a way of life. True frugality went out of favor after the Depression. Meanwhile, it's shockingly common for a family to blow $100k every year and complain about how broke and overtaxed they are.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: JAYSLOL on May 09, 2016, 09:39:27 PM
I don't know if it's the worst advice i've heard, but I have a colleague that keeps telling me I should buy a brand new car because with the 0% financing "it's free money".  No.  It.  Ain't.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Ann on May 09, 2016, 11:02:18 PM
"You should buy a new car soon because the trade-in value of your current one will keep going down"

 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jappe on May 10, 2016, 06:53:54 AM
Probably not the worst one but still something that comes up almost every time when discussing savings:

"Why would you save money. If you have an accident at age 45 and die, the money won't help you. Use it now and start living"

-Okay but what if I DON'T die early and I live till I'm 85, then I'll never have any money?
- Also, why do people always assume I'm not living right now, actually I'm less worried than most people my age, having the time of my life, going on wonderful vacation trips, experiencing life and still saving up.
- Furthermore, I would have a very hard time deciding what to spend all my money on and feeling more happiness than I do now.
- And lastly, okay even if I die the money will go to those I love. No it won't bring me back but I'm pretty sure it will help them to realize some life-goals which they will link to me one way or another.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: 11ducks on May 10, 2016, 07:03:34 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3xf6BFEIo

Treat yourself. The whole concept of 'you deserve nice things!' Or 'treat yourself' or 'princess for a day', it's almost always associated with money and decadence and buying crap you can't afford.
I treat myself with a long shower, a bushwalk, cooking a fave meal. I don't need a $900 bag
I can't afford. At work I constantly hear about the splurges, people in debt, who struggle to pay bills but feel justified in splurging to treat themselves, which in reality only makes their financial problems much worse overall.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 10, 2016, 07:19:55 AM
Probably not the worst one but still something that comes up almost every time when discussing savings:

"Why would you save money. If you have an accident at age 45 and die, the money won't help you. Use it now and start living"

-Okay but what if I DON'T die early and I live till I'm 85, then I'll never have any money?
- Also, why do people always assume I'm not living right now, actually I'm less worried than most people my age, having the time of my life, going on wonderful vacation trips, experiencing life and still saving up.
- Furthermore, I would have a very hard time deciding what to spend all my money on and feeling more happiness than I do now.
- And lastly, okay even if I die the money will go to those I love. No it won't bring me back but I'm pretty sure it will help them to realize some life-goals which they will link to me one way or another.

forgot about this one.  its one of the most annoying things i ever hear.  I'm pretty vocal about finances and where i'm at and what my goals are with everyone i meet.  And it never fails for someone to bring that up. 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: iris lily on May 10, 2016, 10:34:25 AM
....

2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!...



Uh, yes they do.

Our friends bought a house with a mortgage of $100,000 in the late 1980's.

Now, they owe $152,000 on their mortgage and are 65 years old, still punching a time clock.

But hey, that mortgage deduction iis such a good deal.

(Op,
I agree with you vut just want you to know that there is a lot of stupid out in the world.)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: infogoon on May 10, 2016, 10:38:52 AM
"You should buy a more expensive house so you can write off the mortgage interest!"

I paid an effective federal income  tax rate of 1.5% last year. I'm not interested in giving a bunch of money to the bank for no good reason.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ysette9 on May 10, 2016, 01:06:56 PM
Quote
2014 Dodge Challenger Fancypants Big Penis Edition

Sorry, but I need to correct your typo there. It should read: 2014 Dodge Challenger Fancypants Little Penis Edition

An old high school friend always called the big, jacked-up trucks "little penis trucks". I think the name is still appropriate.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 10, 2016, 01:21:53 PM
"You should buy a new car soon because the trade-in value of your current one will keep going down"

Good one. Carmax did tell me something interesting when I sold my car to them though. I sold it to them in January and actually got more than I expected. I guess I made a comment to that effect and he said they typically offer more $ for cars in January, because they're beefing up their inventory for tax refund season when car sales go way up.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BlueHouse on May 10, 2016, 01:50:01 PM
Anything with the words:
1.  "Good debt" or "bad debt"
2.  "Disposable" income. 
3.  "Starter" as in house, car, or marriage.  Hate it!
4.  "This is an investment!"  (referring to clothing, car, purses, jewelry, a haircut or anything that does not bring money directly back to the spender)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: zephyr911 on May 10, 2016, 02:03:37 PM
....

2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!...



Uh, yes they do.

Our friends bought a house with a mortgage of $100,000 in the late 1980's.

Now, they owe $152,000 on their mortgage and are 65 years old, still punching a time clock.

But hey, that mortgage deduction iis such a good deal.

(Op,
I agree with you vut just want you to know that there is a lot of stupid out in the world.)
You sure they didn't just cash out equity to spend it on dumb shit? I can't imagine it was their primary reason... maybe an excuse to rationalize it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ketchup on May 10, 2016, 02:35:47 PM
4.  "This is an investment!"  (referring to clothing, car, purses, jewelry, a haircut or anything that does not bring money directly back to the spender)
Ugh, yes!  That one drives me nuts.  I have a specific friend that uses "This is an investment." as code for "This is a reasonable purchase of something that will last a long time and be legitimately useful."  She's usually spot-on by that definition (she's not talking about pissing away money on stupid shit), but it still makes me crazy.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: iris lily on May 10, 2016, 02:45:32 PM
....

2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!...



Uh, yes they do.

Our friends bought a house with a mortgage of $100,000 in the late 1980's.

Now, they owe $152,000 on their mortgage and are 65 years old, still punching a time clock.

But hey, that mortgage deduction iis such a good deal.

(Op,
I agree with you vut just want you to know that there is a lot of stupid out in the world.)
You sure they didn't just cash out equity to spend it on dumb shit? I can't imagine it was their primary reason... maybe an excuse to rationalize it.
Well yea, you are right, they used their house as a credit card to buy stupid shit. The talked about the mortgage deduction.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Random Hangers on May 10, 2016, 02:47:04 PM
Perhaps not the worst, but it keeps popping up during our house hunt:

Person: What are you looking for in a house?
Me: Names general area, # of bedrooms, etc.
Person: What about a pool?
Me: Nah, we'd never use it [I'm a lap swimmer; I never know what to do with myself in a non-lap pool].
Person: That's ok. It's soooo good for resale value.
Me: But it's expensive to maintain. And even if my husband does the monthly stuff, there's still upkeep, plus I think your insurance goes up?
Person: You just hire a guy to do it. It's like, $100, $125 extra per month, that's it!
Me: But we'd *never* use it. We'd *literally* just be paying the guy to clean something we don't use.
Person: That's ok! Think of the resale!

I've now had this conversation with two or three unrelated people. We don't want a pool, all right? We're hoping to live in our next lace for 15+ years, so how much is it really going to help with a future sale? Even if we *only* had to pay the pool person and none of the other stuff, that's $18k! ($100/month x 12 months x 15 years minimum) Good grief, people.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: clarkfan1979 on May 10, 2016, 04:54:44 PM
My wife and I waited 2 years to save up enough money to pay for our wedding in cash, which was about $12,000 for 96 guests. Many people were amazed that we were willing to wait that long. One person said that we could get married a year sooner if we just charged the $6,000 to our credit card.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ysette9 on May 10, 2016, 04:56:29 PM
That is funny because I was literally having the pool conversation a couple of days back with some coworkers. One specifically said it was an important selling point and she wouldn't buy a house without a pool because they use it so much. The rest of us fell somewhere in the spectrum of "eh, I can take it or leave it" to (me) "if a house has a pool then they need to discount the price because I will have to pay to have it removed". I imagine this changes depending on where in the country you live.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: JAYSLOL on May 10, 2016, 07:15:47 PM
Anytime i hear an ad that says something along the lines of...

"Take out a personal loan of up to $10,000 today and start re-building your credit!"

"Bad credit? No credit? No problem! Get the vehicle you want TODAY with $0 down!"

I just fill with rage every time i hear shit like this.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ender on May 10, 2016, 07:27:06 PM
Any of the investment crap that is on the radio is pretty bad.

Gold has some ridiculously misleading ones. But there are many others, such as guaranteeing 12% returns and blatant fear mongering about the is the stock market going up? or down?! you better invest with us!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Goldielocks on May 10, 2016, 08:32:03 PM
"You should buy a more expensive house so you can write off the mortgage interest!"

I paid an effective federal income  tax rate of 1.5% last year. I'm not interested in giving a bunch of money to the bank for no good reason.

Ugh.

In the US, those bigger, fancier more expensive houses come with much higher property taxes and maintenance / Utilities too.      The deductions sometimes barely pays for the increased property tax....  (California and other prop tax states)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: cheapbarb on May 10, 2016, 09:52:27 PM
The worst advice I've ever heard was "debt is just part of life. Everyone has it.".  This comes from someone who is financially *bleeped* but doesn't want to face it.

Second worst was from a financial advisor who told me to just ignore the 6 percent load on the mutual fund he wanted to sell me.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Goldielocks on May 10, 2016, 10:09:01 PM
As 20-somethings, who had just bought a home a year before...our first (otherwise best) financial planner gave us this book to read...

Garth Turner -- The Strategy (early 1998 version) 
(Borrowing against your property to invest)
http://www.abebooks.com/Garth-Turner-Strategy-Homeowners-Guide-Wealth/17664566574/bd (http://www.abebooks.com/Garth-Turner-Strategy-Homeowners-Guide-Wealth/17664566574/bd)


Yikes....   Even though today, I do keep my "Mortgage prepayments" invested, for improved returns versus our teeny tiny mortgage interest, I could not condone giving this advice to a young couple with barely 22% equity and 6.5% mortgage interest rates borrowing against their property to invest in the stock market...
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: JustTrying on May 10, 2016, 11:30:15 PM
Realtor: "It's only $50 more per month!" Um, with a 30 year mortgage with interest, that $50 is pretty significant.

Car Dealer (trying to sell me a car that costs more than the $10,000 cash I had to offer): "You'll put $2,000 down and then you can keep the rest of the money in your pocket!" Huh???

My husband: "The best investment is gold." I actually think he still believes this, but he's decided to just follow my recommendations rather than go for this wonderful investment idea that he has!

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: csprof on May 10, 2016, 11:34:02 PM
This one I think I did hear but disregarded: "Go to the best/most prestigious school you can get into." While I think it can totally make sense to bend over backward to attend a truly elite institution (e.g. Ivy, MIT), particularly when the price premium isn't extremely large (say, $5k/year, maybe $10k, but not $50k), I do believe below that point the rankings break down in utility and the education and name recognition you'd get from a given institution is mostly the same as the next one on the list. Once you get below that super-prestige level, it's time to consider value. On the flip side of this, some of the best advice I got was to not evaluate the cost of attending a particular school until after fin aid offers came back. The state school was NOT the cheapest for me (I got a merit scholarship elsewhere) so it saddens me when parents seem to be discouraging their kids from even *applying* elsewhere; maybe it's not common but you could be missing out on a good deal.

There was a recent economist article on this subject - methodology was questionable, but there's probably a grain of truth among it:

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21646220-it-depends-what-you-study-not-where

"Engineers and computer scientists do best, earning an impressive 20-year annualised return of 12% on their college fees (the S&P 500 yielded just 7.8%). Engineering graduates from run-of-the-mill colleges do only slightly worse than those from highly selective ones."

But what's interesting is that couched that way, going to a better school could be viewed as letting you invest more at a high rate of return.  If you've got the $200k to toss around, going to <name-brand-school-here> (I won't be crass enough to pimp my own department, as tempting as it is) could be a solid choice, because it lets you put $200k in at 12%, vs going to local-state-school and only "getting" to invest 60k at 12%.

That said, I'm personally with you.  I think it's far more important to find a field where you come closer to hitting the holy trinity of employment (something people want to pay for, something you enjoy, something that adds value to the world) than to go to the most expensive machine in the hospital -- er, sorry, the most expensive college around.

For the grad school-bound, there's also the reality that where you do your Ph.D. makes a much bigger difference than where you did your undergrad, and in the engineering fields, at least, the Ph.D. is a "paid" position, as long as you disregard all the money you're not making by going to work immediately. :)  Going to a top school is useful for getting into a Ph.D. program, but a star student from a state school is very likely to do well.

(I won't disagree about the super-prestige level, either, at least in STEM.  It opens a lot of doors - and the fin aid packages are often pretty decent.)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 11, 2016, 06:50:00 AM
Perhaps not the worst, but it keeps popping up during our house hunt:

Person: What are you looking for in a house?
Me: Names general area, # of bedrooms, etc.
Person: What about a pool?
Me: Nah, we'd never use it [I'm a lap swimmer; I never know what to do with myself in a non-lap pool].
Person: That's ok. It's soooo good for resale value.
Me: But it's expensive to maintain. And even if my husband does the monthly stuff, there's still upkeep, plus I think your insurance goes up?
Person: You just hire a guy to do it. It's like, $100, $125 extra per month, that's it!
Me: But we'd *never* use it. We'd *literally* just be paying the guy to clean something we don't use.
Person: That's ok! Think of the resale!

I've now had this conversation with two or three unrelated people. We don't want a pool, all right? We're hoping to live in our next lace for 15+ years, so how much is it really going to help with a future sale? Even if we *only* had to pay the pool person and none of the other stuff, that's $18k! ($100/month x 12 months x 15 years minimum) Good grief, people.

Huh.  Must be your location.

Here in Toronto having a pool is considered a negative when selling your house.  You can only use it for 2-3 months a year at best, it's a big PITA to maintain, and you have to pay astonishing amounts of money to remove them.  :P
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: dz1087 on May 11, 2016, 07:03:44 AM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 11, 2016, 07:06:59 AM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 11, 2016, 07:30:34 AM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

Agree with this. A lot of mustachians lose sight of the big picture and forget the value of time, which to me, is more valuable than money.

*ETA: I disagree with the word "investment" to describe a service like a housekeeper. But there are things that are worth the money.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ketchup on May 11, 2016, 07:53:40 AM
Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cphs-0zKWAM/UF2VXSRRqdI/AAAAAAAADH4/qyzt_eldC8o/s320/ed-nortan-punching.gif)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 11, 2016, 08:16:25 AM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

Couldn't you just do a few more chores and some cleaning around the house so that your wife is less stressed and snappy?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 11, 2016, 09:13:08 AM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

Couldn't you just do a few more chores and some cleaning around the house so that your wife is less stressed and snappy?

Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Inaya on May 11, 2016, 09:32:35 AM
Two huge lies were sold to my generation (80s babies):

1. "Going to college is a great investment." This claim is usually backed by some statistic stating how much more college graduates make than non-graduates. Nearly everyone was encouraged to go to a four year college regardless of interests, talent or ability to pay. No one really thought twice about student loan debt before the 2008 recession.

"Go to college if you don't want to work in fast food your entire life."

Then, once you have your degree and can't get a job in your field, "What, you think you're too good to work in fast food now that you have a degree?"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: mozar on May 11, 2016, 09:43:27 AM

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 11, 2016, 09:51:36 AM

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 11, 2016, 10:19:39 AM

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....

its 100% serious dude.  i dont have time to do chores is a cop out.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 11, 2016, 10:27:12 AM

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....

its 100% serious dude.  i dont have time to do chores is a cop out.

Boarder42! This will be a pleasure. I never said I didn't have time to do them(reading comprehension). I said we gladly hire it out because we don't want to. Time = money, although obviously people value their time differently. Everyone hires things out in their life that they don't want to do though. I don't understand why some people on this site are so argumentative when someone else does something differently than they do.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 11, 2016, 10:32:08 AM

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

Not sure if serious....

its 100% serious dude.  i dont have time to do chores is a cop out.

Boarder42! This will be a pleasure. I never said I didn't have time to do them(reading comprehension). I said we gladly hire it out because we don't want to. Time = money, although obviously people value their time differently. Everyone hires things out in their life that they don't want to do though. I don't understand why some people on this site are so argumentative when someone else does something differently than they do.

this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself. unless you just enjoy face punches
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 11, 2016, 10:35:08 AM

Quote
Sure I could. But between my job and the kids, and the few moments I get to actually do something for myself it's money well spent as far as I'm concerned. Like the previous guy said, time = money. Everyone just has to decide how much their time is worth and what things in their life they want to hire out.
Because this is the mustachian forum, I see this as a complainy pants excuse. I bet you can take time to do more chores. You can also do chores with kids or teach them how to do chores on their own (unless they're under 2). Right now you are teaching them that a household runs by magic, and its better to throw money at a problem than make small sacrifices for the good of the family.

LOL. How incredibly ridiculous. I'll quote my post from another thread I started on time vs. money:

A common thread through both the articles and posts here is that of the Compound Effect (book here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159315724X?keywords=the%20compound%20effect&qid=1445367773&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1), which basically holds that everyday decisions, when compounded over time, can add up to significant changes.  MMM has wrote about this on a variety of things--cheaper car payment = more can be invested; brew your own coffee = $10/week x 52 weeks x 8% return for 20 years of investments = tons of money; public schools vs. private schools = huge amounts of money for the schooling years of kids.

And I generally agree with that compound principle--but only for the "big ticket" items (car, house, public school, etc.). As for the small stuff?

I think the compound effect of time is significantly more important than the compound effect of money, and I think that gets lost in the way of this community's emphasis on frugality.

For an example, I saw a thread on here once about making your own "minute rice." Basically it went something like this: get a 2 lb. bag of brown rice, a couple bouillon cubes, seasonings, etc.; make the rice, wrap it in saran wrap, let it cool, freeze it, and boom--you have minute rice. And that would save me about $2/pound of rice. And if you eat a lot of rice (which I do), then that's a lot of money over a lifetime.

So I tried this for two weekends and it probably took about 45 minutes each weekend. Honestly, that's not worth $2.00. I would rather be doing so many other things during that time, and maybe even doing some work related to starting my own law firm by next summer (i.e., doing something productive that would lead to a potential increase in income, which is far more likely to lead me to financial independence than saving $2 at the grocery store).

And I think a lot of posters on here could use the reminder that time saved can be more important than money saved.

Our ultimate collective goal, as I see it, is to become financially independent. But when people are willing to spend hours doing something to save a couple dollars, they are a slave to money in the same way that a person in credit card debt is (i.e., it stresses them out/they think too much about it). That's not ideal when trying to become financially independent.

So the point of this post is to just remind people to not only consider the compound effect of money, but also consider the compound effect of time. Some things that cost a fraction more are simply worth the expense so you can do other things that will lead you to (a) spending more time with loved ones and (b) potentially using that time to achieve financial independence sooner.

I still stand by this 1000% percent. Hell, the entire thinking behind FIRE is to accumulate enough money so you can have an indefinite amount of free time. So why are people so against using money NOW to save time NOW? It's quite easily the biggest contradiction on this forum.

Of course I have time to bike to work and do every chore imaginable and fix everything that breaks. But I value my time over saving a couple bucks a month.

-It takes about $2,500 to pay for my car each year (assuming $1,000 in maintenance per year). Compared to biking to and from work, my car saves me nine hours per week just on my work commute alone. So basically I'm paying $5/week to have 9 more hours of time. Give me a break if you don't think that's worth it.

-I just paid a repairman $30 to fix my garage. It would have taken me my entire Saturday morning, driving to go get parts, etc. to figure it out and repair it myself. I instead opted to pay the repairman and then went and volunteered with my community organization to repair a blighted local park.

I could go on, and this isn't to say I don't try to save money. Of course I do. But it's better to get the big things right than get your bojangles tangled in a wad over saving X amount of money rather than enjoying Y amount of time.

Put another way, you are a slave to money and your bottom line if your theoretical net worth in 30 years is more important than your free time now.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 11, 2016, 10:38:43 AM
this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself.

Or I'll just continue to post here because I know my blatant consumerism drives you absolutely crazy. I don't expect you to understand why I gave in and spent the money on a maid for my wife, since you compared your wife's replaceability to a pair of shoes in another thread.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 11, 2016, 10:39:06 AM
the purpose of the forum isnt to show off and brag about how you waste your money. its to learn how to spend less money but go ahead and wax your ego's
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 11, 2016, 10:39:35 AM
So the latest bad advice is "never pay for anything no matter how much time it saves, even if you could make more money doing something else with that time"?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 11, 2016, 10:39:52 AM
this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself.

Or I'll just continue to post here because I know my blatant consumerism drives you absolutely crazy. I don't expect you to understand why I gave in and spent the money on a maid for my wife, since you compared your wife's replaceability to a pair of shoes in another thread.

incorrect. but i wouldnt expect you to understand.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 11, 2016, 10:42:49 AM
So the latest bad advice is "never pay for anything no matter how much time it saves, even if you could make more money doing something else with that time"?

99% incorrect 

i would say the bad advice is post crap you spend money on that is mostly needless to enjoy a happy life on a forum about cutting back consumerism.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 11, 2016, 10:43:40 AM
this isnt a forum to come feel good about spending money on things you can do yourself that you have the skills to do.  i own a boat i dont broadcast it on here as one of the BEST things i ever did like you're doing.  keep your garbage excuses for a house cleaner to yourself.

I could probably pay off my law school debt if I got a dollar for every time you said "I own a boat and don't broadcast it on here!" as a justification to condescend others' spending habits that you find personally objectionable.

Again op post is what's the mustachian thing to do. And outsourcing insurance on your life is unmustacian. So is owning a boat. I own a boat I don't come on here and try to tell you all why I own it and that it's a necessary.

It was a choice you made to have kids before you could financially support them if you were to die and now you're paying extra to insure them incase you do die.

Just like it's my choice to own a boat and insure it. But it's NOT mustachian.

why even make this post then?  Did you want confirmation from a FIRE forum that buying a new car made sense.  Its not gonna happen here.

I own a boat pretty unMustachian.  But i dont post on here expecting people to support my decision.  I do everything as frugally as i can with the boat but its still a boat. 

If you think getting the assurance of internet strangers will help you make a care purchase then you knew the answer before you posted this.  and why 2016 did they change the body in 2016.  if so in 4 years get a 2016 - still newer than i would buy but you have to mold this lifestyle into your own.

I just find it hilarious some of you have a reason to make a thread and try to prove your truck ownership on a thread. Are you trying to convince us or yourself. There is one guy on this thread using his truck correctly and its basically how I said. As a camper.

I own a boat. I run a charity event around boats. I haven't made a thread to defend my boat.  It's something I do. It's not fit for this forum. If you have need to defend your life choices on a forum bent around making the smart financial ones(even though you justified it to yourself someway). You may have other problems in your life you should look into.

Wah wah I wanna a truck and no one around here likes em.

However i will say IF you feel the need to justify somehting you do to internet strangers then you're probably trying to justify it to yourself.  I own a boat but i dont come on here looking for approval from mustachians b/c thats never going to happen.

also if your wife is a SAHM.  this should be her job to cut this bill down to nothing.  WTF can you possibly do all day.  she should be able to find extreme deals and manage your household budget full time to the gnats ass detail... i can do this working 60+ hours a week sometime.  start making the changes and make it a habit. 

i mean all you did was counter every point made to lower your bill.  this would be like me posting about my boat costing me too much money and people telling me to sell it and me giving them 20 reasons why i wont.

why post
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 11, 2016, 10:49:51 AM
Hahaha that's impressive ^
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MoneyCat on May 11, 2016, 10:53:07 AM
"Follow your passion and the money will come. Live for today because life is short and you only live once." This is pretty much why my life was a fucking disaster in my 20s.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 11, 2016, 11:02:52 AM
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 11, 2016, 11:10:20 AM
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.

This is actually the main motivation that I have to not outsource things that would save me time.  I spend an awful lot of time every single day fucking around.  Having more time to fuck around isn't significantly more productive, or worth more dollars to me than having a bit less time to fuck around and doing the tasks myself.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 11, 2016, 11:14:54 AM
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.
Predictably, attack the person, not the substance.

But it took about 5 minutes and was well worth (a) a break from work and (b) my amusement.

Cheers man. Now go enjoy your boat.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: infogoon on May 11, 2016, 11:20:53 AM
Cheers man. Now go enjoy your boat.

He has a boat?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cpa Cat on May 11, 2016, 11:28:17 AM
1. Cut Starbucks. 

I am all for not wasting 5 bucks a day on coffee, but the people who use this line, generally have nothing else to say.  If it weren't for all the money wasted on coffee, I think they'd have no financial advice to give.  It's not like they are then asking you to consider giving up your car.

I disagree that it's bad advice. Sometimes, I think Mustachians lose sight of the fact that most people really suck at saving and are used to spending all of their money. If you start off with those people by saying, "Give up your car," they will just shut down. They will do nothing. It seems too hard. But give up Starbucks? They can wrap their head around that. It's a sacrifice - but a small sacrifice. It gets them started.

Then, after Starbucks, they start thinking: "What else can I cut?" Maybe eating out? Maybe the lawn service? There are a lot of steps between cutting Starbucks and cutting the vehicle or downsizing your house.



2. Mortgages are good for the interest write off! 

No one who ever owned a home went and mortgaged it so they could get the interest write off.  Why pay the bank 20 grand a year in interest just so you can save $750 from Uncle Sam!

I hate this one, too. I hear it all the time: "The realtor told me I'd save 30% of the interest on my taxes!!" I am convinced that most realtors don't understand the difference between the standard deduction and itemizing. In my region (LCOL), the MFJ standard deduction of $12,600 is an enormous hurdle to cross, and people with mortgages and real estate taxes on average houses often don't end up itemizing.

"Oh, it turns out that having a mortgage saves you exactly NOTHING on your taxes. Maybe you should have consulted your CPA instead of your realtor for tax advice."

Have extra money deducted from your paycheck every month so you'll get a big tax refund. 

I encourage people to increase their withholding all of the time. Getting a big refund makes them happy. Owing taxes makes them sad. Most people seem fundamentally incapable of planning for a tax bill. They are shocked and horrified if they don't get a refund. Owing money at tax time is like needing to pay for an emergency ER visit. It totally derails them financially. I discuss increasing withholding while they're still getting a small refund. Most clients tell me that they would feel happier and more secure if their refund was bigger and would be very unhappy if they had to pay in. So even though I know their withholding is just about bang-on perfect, I fill out their W-4s for them to take to work to increase it.


I also sometimes advise my sole-proprietor clients to create S-Corps - not for the tax savings, but because I can get them to put themselves on payroll and automatically withhold taxes. It helps break the cycle of constant IRS installment agreements because they can't seem to find the money for estimated taxes, but they can find it for withholding.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cromacster on May 11, 2016, 12:06:04 PM
The amount of time it took you to compile that you could've cleaned your house for your wife.  Congratulations.
Predictably, attack the person, not the substance.

But it took about 5 minutes and was well worth (a) a break from work and (b) my amusement.

Cheers man. Now go enjoy your boat.

I don't think it was a personal attack.  He was merely pointed out that those 5 minutes could have been used to scrub the toilet or clean a few dishes.

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: FI by 2035 on May 11, 2016, 12:36:49 PM
Advice I hear a lot from family and friends: "If you wait till you can afford it you'll never have kids."

Terrible advice. I know I can afford it now, we are just waiting till were free of student loans so we'll be in a better situation to provide for our kids and continue to work towards our financial goals. Some people just don't get it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MudDuck on May 11, 2016, 12:41:33 PM
It's getting a little ::ahem:: catty in here.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 11, 2016, 12:44:03 PM
I don't think it was a personal attack.  He was merely pointed out that those 5 minutes could have been used to scrub the toilet or clean a few dishes.

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.

I agree I wouldn't have a cleaning person. But I also don't knock people for paying money to save time because it's impossible to know what's going on with their life.  Someone posting on MMM is presumably intelligent and very personal finance literate, they've presumably done the  cost benefit analysis. To knock them because your cost benefit analysis is different doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Inaya on May 11, 2016, 01:03:02 PM
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 11, 2016, 01:09:05 PM
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

Well said.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Filliteracy on May 11, 2016, 01:32:24 PM
1.  Late 2014:  Buy oil stocks.  They are cheap and will recover smartly.

2.  Leasing a vehicle frees up capital to invest more (LOL!).

Whats wrong with #1? What horizon did you expect them to recover, it's not even been 1.5 years? Meanwhile enjoy the 5-6% dividends from "risky" 100B+ capitalization until it recovers possibly in 5, 10, or who cares, 20 years, then cash in for the capital gains. If you are putting money in the stock market trying to make money short term (5 years or less IMHO), you're not investing, you're speculating.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Zikoris on May 11, 2016, 01:44:54 PM
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

Counterpoint: Mustachianism is also about developing self-reliance skills, reducing your environmental impact, and generally not being a lazy consumer sucker.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: sheepstache on May 11, 2016, 02:14:31 PM
So the latest bad advice is "never pay for anything no matter how much time it saves, even if you could make more money doing something else with that time"?

Well coming straight from the MMM's mouth are the attitudes on insourcing. I think it's treated as an absolute good kinda regardless of money saved.

To me, this is because consumerism has taught people that any kind of chore or work you could outsource is bad and unenjoyable and even shameful. But in fact doing things for yourself can provide a great deal of satisfaction from fitness maintained, skills gained, general happiness from self-reliance.

I mean, consumerist culture would have ReadySetMillionaire believing that paying someone else to maintain his yard while he goes and volunteers to maintain a rundown park is good. There's some weird undertone in our culture that volunteering is fun while doing the same work for yourself is degrading misery. Also you get external rewards for volunteering; you're a Good Person, whereas no one pats you on the back for taking care of your own things. And Choice! Don't forget that as consumers We Deserve Choice. If you pay someone so you can go do something else, you know you're choosing that activity, whereas home maintenance is based on boring old reality where you have to accommodate yourself to whatever problem presents itself. How do you know Your Real Authentic Self wants to work on that problem? You never know whether you truly enjoy something unless you're paying for it.

Of course, RSM didn't exchange identical tasks; he might well know he's wretched at figuring out mechanical problems.  This is where I disagree with some more hardcore folks. While I would add the caveat that a guaranteed way to stay bad at mechanical problems is to always outsource them, I do respect individual aptitude and preferences. My mother is afraid of lawn mowers due to some traumatic experience, so even though she could mow her own lawn out of sheer willpower, it's just always going to be a hateful task to her. (Some might say she shouldn't have a lawn then, but she does all her own landscaping and gardening and needs a grassy area for her dogs.)

And I've seen some really harsh comments here about how everybody can clean, but I personally am one of those people who is terrible at cleaning. My mind just doesn't get it. My partner can go wipe down the surfaces in the kitchen and it's sparking. I can go do the same thing and it looks the exact same, minus a few crumbs. I do not understand what wizardry is involved with making things look clean. In our case I'm able to make up for it by jumping on tasks like washing dishes or doing laundry where the procedure is more straightforward. But if those weren't options I'd just have to outsource to keep the peace. 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: galliver on May 11, 2016, 03:28:45 PM
There was a recent economist article on this subject - methodology was questionable, but there's probably a grain of truth among it:

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21646220-it-depends-what-you-study-not-where

"Engineers and computer scientists do best, earning an impressive 20-year annualised return of 12% on their college fees (the S&P 500 yielded just 7.8%). Engineering graduates from run-of-the-mill colleges do only slightly worse than those from highly selective ones."

But what's interesting is that couched that way, going to a better school could be viewed as letting you invest more at a high rate of return.  If you've got the $200k to toss around, going to <name-brand-school-here> (I won't be crass enough to pimp my own department, as tempting as it is) could be a solid choice, because it lets you put $200k in at 12%, vs going to local-state-school and only "getting" to invest 60k at 12%.

That said, I'm personally with you.  I think it's far more important to find a field where you come closer to hitting the holy trinity of employment (something people want to pay for, something you enjoy, something that adds value to the world) than to go to the most expensive machine in the hospital -- er, sorry, the most expensive college around.

For the grad school-bound, there's also the reality that where you do your Ph.D. makes a much bigger difference than where you did your undergrad, and in the engineering fields, at least, the Ph.D. is a "paid" position, as long as you disregard all the money you're not making by going to work immediately. :)  Going to a top school is useful for getting into a Ph.D. program, but a star student from a state school is very likely to do well.

(I won't disagree about the super-prestige level, either, at least in STEM.  It opens a lot of doors - and the fin aid packages are often pretty decent.)

Thanks, that was interesting! Although I was saddened to see that the ROI on a science degree is more on par with humanities than engineering. Though, perhaps that's because most science jobs actually require a masters or higher at this point? Interesting idea that more expensive education could be seen as investing more at the same ROI. I'd never thought to consider it that way!

But while I myself am in engineering and think STEM majors are great choices, I do think we undervalue certain jobs/majors (teachers and social workers come to mind), as well as the power of humanities and arts as a whole. Technology can solve a lot of problems, but without input from the humanities it won't help us understand or fix mental illness, inequality, racism, intolerance, etc. Even communication: I bet we all think that Google Translate and voice recognition are awesome technologies...but underlying all that is the work of language experts and linguists figuring out how language is structured. People like my friend doing a PhD in French, who is studying how vowels are expressed in different francophone countries (with very scientific methods including voice recording and statistical analysis, mind you). I think there might be issues with how the education in these subjects is delivered, right now, but the subjects are sound and important. It would be ignorant to say we don't need people studying this (to be very clear: not saying you are! Just that some people do.).

Incidentally, I was going to posit that elite institutions are more important for liberal arts majors than STEM, but I guess that doesn't hold up...interestingly, it looks like the worst possible investments are some universities with 40-60% admissions rates, where the ROI dips deeply negative...perhaps because tuition is expensive and return is minimal, vs schools with near 100% acceptance, presumably state schools with lower tuition, therefore a small boost in earnings over a lifetime results in at least a modest return overall?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: mozar on May 11, 2016, 05:32:40 PM
Quote
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

I wasn't trying to knock anyone. It's just something to consider. A challenge if you will. People on here challenge me to take it to the next level all the time. Maybe because I live in a HCOL, but a house cleaner would cost me 200-300 a month. I can understand spending $30 to free up a morning every once in awhile. But I wouldn't spend even $30 every time for regular basic maintenance. For non-traumatized able-bodied people, routine tasks are worth trying.

On another note, I wish that there were time case studies.  People can give advice, face punches, on how people can spend time to reach their goals better.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BlueHouse on May 11, 2016, 06:24:02 PM

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
This is not a great argument, IMO. Yep, you're an adult, so maybe you should work until you're 65 like most adults do. Oh, you have different priorities?  I see.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cromacster on May 12, 2016, 06:43:31 AM
I don'

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
This is not a great argument, IMO. Yep, you're an adult, so maybe you should work until you're 65 like most adults do. Oh, you have different priorities?  I see.

I guess I don't think those have anything to do with each other, but it might be a bad argument.

I still think it's crazy to have a cleaning person.  To me it means the individual has poorly allocated their resources in too much house and  too many possessions.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 12, 2016, 07:02:23 AM
I don'

Overall I feel having a cleaning person is crazy.  Would it be nice if I came home to a clean house, or a mowed lawn?  Sure, but I am an adult.  I chose to use the dishes.  I chose to wear the clothes.  I chose to own a house with a lawn.  I am an adult so I take care of it.  If I ever got to the point where I felt so stressed out and short one time that these normal functions needed to be outsourced I would seriously need to reconsider my priorities in life.
This is not a great argument, IMO. Yep, you're an adult, so maybe you should work until you're 65 like most adults do. Oh, you have different priorities?  I see.

I guess I don't think those have anything to do with each other, but it might be a bad argument.

I still think it's crazy to have a cleaning person.  To me it means the individual has poorly allocated their resources in too much house and  too many possessions.

I think it's personal preference. Some people don't care if their house is extremely clean. They just declutter a bit and wipe a few things down and call it good. My wife loves the days the 2 person cleaning crew comes and spends 2 hours cleaning the house. We live in a 3 level townhouse by the way, not some overly extravagant mansion. It makes her very happy and to me is $100 well spent. How long would it take a one person crew(me) to clean it as well as them? Half the day? I like the ROI on my time of spending the money there.

I recently had my furnace and A/C unit looked at and the guy recommended a couple old components being replaced. For the 3 parts he quoted me about $1,500. I purchased the parts for $200 and plan to install myself(I've already done one which took 10 minutes). The remainder will probably take me an hour or two tops. I like that ROI on my time of doing it myself. I could take a condescending stance against people who pay large $$$ to HVAC techs for fairly simple things they could fix and call it very Unmustachian, but I don't.

Money is nice, but you can't take it with you. Everyone has to decide along the way what is worth spending money on for their own happiness. It's worth it for most people to spend some money, although I'm sure there are some people that are happiest cutting literally every non-essential expense and just watching the bank account grow. That's cool too. The answer is different for different people though. I don't think the point of this website is to facepunch anyone that posts about spending money on the non-essentials of life, but then again if that makes people happy who am I to argue.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ariapluscat on May 12, 2016, 08:25:55 AM
It's getting a little ::ahem:: catty in here.
thank you!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 12, 2016, 08:58:51 PM
I'm going to quote MMM, note, iPads are like maids.
Quote
Let’s suppose you want the latest iPad. You want it because it is convenient to be able to look at pictures and websites and books and play music around the house. Sure, you already have other computers that do those things, but the iPad is special because it lets you do them while holding it in one hand, sitting on the couch.

Wow, that couch is pretty convenient too, isn’t it? It is comfortable, enjoyable, convenient, and joyful to sit and lie on your couch. In fact, wouldn’t it be best to just lie on that couch all day? Forever? Yeah! Maybe you could even hook it up with a catheter and a bedpan, and a friend or robot could bring you all your food on the couch too. With each release, the latest iPad could be delivered to you, and you’d have the most convenient and comfortable and effort-free life ever.

Heres an MMM article, assume a maid is a robot with a motor, and instead you should use your own muscles instead of that robot
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Goldielocks on May 12, 2016, 09:31:52 PM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

GAW,

I bet that she would be just as delighted if you spent 3 hours every Saturday morning cleaning, while she keeps up with the everyday work during the week... 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Goldielocks on May 12, 2016, 09:41:40 PM
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.

Well said.

It's the way he (I assume this is a man) phrased it...   That he chose to retain a cleaning service to make his wife happy....

NOT because he values his personal time more than cleaning, has cleaning allergies, is in a wheelchair, or works 80hr weeks.... but because it makes his wife happy....   

.....Dude,  she might even be happier, if you became the cleaning service, and you used the funds to go out for dinner together....   
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: a-scho on May 12, 2016, 11:33:50 PM
"If you align your chakras, money will start flowing in. The universe provides."

Read that on a blog I stumbled onto the other day. All you have to do is stop stressing about money, meditate to align your chakras, and your money problems will disappear. Face, meet palm.

Pretty much similar to this but wrapped up in a little different packaging.

*cough The Secret cough*

I'll sometimes find The Secret at a library book sale for .25. I'll turn around and sell it on Ebay for 5.00
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 13, 2016, 04:28:03 AM

Co-worker: "Hiring a house cleaner is a great investment!"

I agree with this 100%.

My wife cleans houses and people paying her to do what she likes is definitely a great investment!

I actually think it is a great investment...in your marriage. Since I finally gave in and allowed us to get a maid service my wife is much less stressed and snappy. The expression goes happy wife, happy..something or other

GAW,

I bet that she would be just as delighted if you spent 3 hours every Saturday morning cleaning, while she keeps up with the everyday work during the week...

Some of you guys on this site are hilarious. So you purport to know what would make my wife happy better than I? Ok then..

Also what makes you think I want to spend 3 hours on a Saturday morning cleaning??? That would make me unhappy. Is the point of being Mustacian to maximize your bank account without any regard to your happiness?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BlueHouse on May 13, 2016, 05:05:25 AM
I can't believe we're rehashing the same old cleaning service arguments yet again in yet another thread.
Guys, if any mustachian would like to take on cleaning my house every two weeks, I will gladly pay you what I pay my cleaning service. I get 4 people for 1 hour to clean a four level row house. $100. Anybody looking for a side gig?  I live in Wash DC. Any takers? 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Dicey on May 13, 2016, 08:30:28 AM
I resisted until now, b-b-b-b-but I can't stand it any more!

 I have an every-other-week housecleaning service. I also have Gold "status" at Starbucks.  I can't believe I'm that person now. What happened to me????

Oh, I'm FIRE and I can afford it. I still save plenty, so why not, now that the goal has been reached? I absolutely love the the whole house is spotless at the same time. It gives me an unexpected thrill every single time they finish.

Not mustachian you say? Well, I was frugal long before Pete coined the term. Discovering this site just made the last stages of my FIRE journey more fun. Now that I'm there, surprise! Selective splurging is not going to ruin me financially.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cpa Cat on May 13, 2016, 08:39:50 AM
I resisted until now, b-b-b-b-but I can't stand it any more!

 I have an every-other-week housecleaning service. I also have Gold "status" at Starbucks.  I can't believe I'm that person now. What happened to me????

Oh, I'm FIRE and I can afford it. I still save plenty, so why not, now that the goal has been reached? I absolutely love the the whole house is spotless at the same time. It gives me an unexpected thrill every single time they finish.

Not mustachian you say? Well, I was frugal long before Pete coined the term. Discovering this site just made the last stages of my FIRE journey more fun. Now that I'm there, surprise! Selective splurging is not going to ruin me financially.

Me too. I didn't FIRE so I could spend all my time cleaning my house.

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 08:42:05 AM
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians. We will just give you some basic math.

Lets say you spend $300/month on maids, if you were to do this work yourself, you'd be able to save an extra $3,600 per year, and need $90,000 less in your retirement accounts to sustain yourself when you retire. Lets also assume you currently have $500,000 in retirement accounts, make $100,000/year, are currently only saving $40,000/year. This would mean you need $1,500,000 to retire. You make the one simple change of doing your cleaning yourself, and you then reduce the amount of years you have to work from 25 more years to 20.8 years, reducing your working career by over 4 years.

You'll also be taking on more risk by being lazy and not doing things yourself, as the more people/things you are dependent on, the more risk you are taking on. It's like ERE says, if you are a master of all things, can do everything yourself, then you're almost guaranteed never to be broke. You could lose your job, make a bad investment and lose all your money, the stock market could crash, etc. You would still be fine because you can do it all.

Lets not forget the fact that if you have a maid, your children are more likely to be useless and spoiled pieces of s*** that everyone hates.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: pbkmaine on May 13, 2016, 09:00:27 AM
I clean my own house because it's very good exercise, at least the way I do it, and I dislike most forms of exercise. So I get stuff done, save money, get fit. Win win win.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 13, 2016, 09:11:48 AM
whoa people who are FIREd have maids holy cow and i noticed 1 was 58 so you likely dont have kids at home anymore. questions galore

1. how big is your house
2. wtf are you doing all day everday you dont have time to pick up and clean once a week
3. i can understand the excuses for those who are not FIREd (kinda - not really but they are better)
4. i guess if you have the money who cares but i mean to each his own. 
5. we all FIRE so we can do whatever we want and watching a maid clean while i drink starbucks isnt my plan but i guess if those things make you happy.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Inaya on May 13, 2016, 09:22:44 AM
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians.

It's not a cult, and MMM isn't our messiah. Everything (mostly) is open to interpretation, even what is considered "wasting money." He has a car and believes it to be worthwhile--that doesn't make non-car-ownership unmustachian just because it's not the way HE does it. He travels a lot via airborne germ incubation tubes--that doesn't automatically make travel expenditures mustachian just because MMM does it. Likewise, just because MMM doesn't hire maids, doesn't mean its inherently wasteful for everyone. And choosing to live a life with $30,000 annual expenses is not unmustachian just because MMM spends less every year.

I think there are really only a few "mustachian" ideals that aren't open to interpretation: 1) not being in debt or actively trying to get out of debt by trimming down all nonessentials; 2) saving as much as you deem necessary for the life/comfort/security you want, now and in the future; 3) being MINDFUL about all of your spending and prioritize spending according to your values so that you can make cuts if needed (e.g., debt scenario); 4) find ways to optimize your money and your life; 5) try to make the world a better place, even just a little.

And even these "tenets" or whatever you'd call them are pretty flexible. For instance, debt could be considered a non-emergency if the interest is lower than the interest you could make via investments.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 09:53:51 AM
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians.

It's not a cult, and MMM isn't our messiah. Everything (mostly) is open to interpretation, even what is considered "wasting money." He has a car and believes it to be worthwhile--that doesn't make non-car-ownership unmustachian just because it's not the way HE does it. He travels a lot via airborne germ incubation tubes--that doesn't automatically make travel expenditures mustachian just because MMM does it. Likewise, just because MMM doesn't hire maids, doesn't mean its inherently wasteful for everyone. And choosing to live a life with $30,000 annual expenses is not unmustachian just because MMM spends less every year.

I think there are really only a few "mustachian" ideals that aren't open to interpretation: 1) not being in debt or actively trying to get out of debt by trimming down all nonessentials; 2) saving as much as you deem necessary for the life/comfort/security you want, now and in the future; 3) being MINDFUL about all of your spending and prioritize spending according to your values so that you can make cuts if needed (e.g., debt scenario); 4) find ways to optimize your money and your life; 5) try to make the world a better place, even just a little.

And even these "tenets" or whatever you'd call them are pretty flexible. For instance, debt could be considered a non-emergency if the interest is lower than the interest you could make via investments.
I never said it was a cult, I said most people on this forum agree with him. People can disagree with any mustachian ideal, but I recommend not bringing up your disagreement of them on this forum unless you want to debate about it.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

might as well get a bed pan and a catheter too, your maids can change them and also bring you food, you can live on your couch forever and have free time.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Warlord1986 on May 13, 2016, 10:06:55 AM
Anybody who has read any of Triple M's articles would know that cleaning maids are unmustachian. If you want to have the service, have the service. We can't stop you, it's really none of our business what you spend money on, and most of us aren't hardcore mustachians anyway (God knows I'm not). But don't pretend it's at all mustachian. At least be honest with yourself.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: iris lily on May 13, 2016, 10:38:12 AM
 I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 13, 2016, 10:59:48 AM
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians. We will just give you some basic math.

Lets say you spend $300/month on maids, if you were to do this work yourself, you'd be able to save an extra $3,600 per year, and need $90,000 less in your retirement accounts to sustain yourself when you retire. Lets also assume you currently have $500,000 in retirement accounts, make $100,000/year, are currently only saving $40,000/year. This would mean you need $1,500,000 to retire. You make the one simple change of doing your cleaning yourself, and you then reduce the amount of years you have to work from 25 more years to 20.8 years, reducing your working career by over 4 years.

You'll also be taking on more risk by being lazy and not doing things yourself, as the more people/things you are dependent on, the more risk you are taking on. It's like ERE says, if you are a master of all things, can do everything yourself, then you're almost guaranteed never to be broke. You could lose your job, make a bad investment and lose all your money, the stock market could crash, etc. You would still be fine because you can do it all.

Lets not forget the fact that if you have a maid, your children are more likely to be useless and spoiled pieces of s*** that everyone hates.

LOL. MMM is not God and his articles aren't religious commandments. You're missing the point if you think someone can't spend money on things that bring them value.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 11:10:40 AM
I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ketchup on May 13, 2016, 11:22:06 AM
I don't understand how we can be on a forum dedicated to Mr. Money Mustache and people don't understand why forum members don't condone maids. Mr. Money Mustache doesn't condone maids, and his articles are what have brought us together, so of course most of us will agree with him. Use your money however you'd like, but don't argue against wasting money on a forum full of mustachians. We will just give you some basic math.

Lets say you spend $300/month on maids, if you were to do this work yourself, you'd be able to save an extra $3,600 per year, and need $90,000 less in your retirement accounts to sustain yourself when you retire. Lets also assume you currently have $500,000 in retirement accounts, make $100,000/year, are currently only saving $40,000/year. This would mean you need $1,500,000 to retire. You make the one simple change of doing your cleaning yourself, and you then reduce the amount of years you have to work from 25 more years to 20.8 years, reducing your working career by over 4 years.

You'll also be taking on more risk by being lazy and not doing things yourself, as the more people/things you are dependent on, the more risk you are taking on. It's like ERE says, if you are a master of all things, can do everything yourself, then you're almost guaranteed never to be broke. You could lose your job, make a bad investment and lose all your money, the stock market could crash, etc. You would still be fine because you can do it all.

Lets not forget the fact that if you have a maid, your children are more likely to be useless and spoiled pieces of s*** that everyone hates.

LOL. MMM is not God and his articles aren't religious commandments. You're missing the point if you think someone can't spend money on things that bring them value.
He's just a carpenter with some good ideas to share.  Hey wait a minute...

/makes the sign of the mustache in Christian sign-of-the-cross style
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: tomatops on May 13, 2016, 11:29:57 AM
"Not paying off your full credit card balance each month actually gets you better credit because companies will more willingly led to you because they know they can make money off of you."

Ummmmm... No. Just no.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Inkedup on May 13, 2016, 11:35:26 AM
I once worked for someone who had a messiah complex and made constant attempts to meddle in his employees' personal lives. He tried to get everyone to sign up for sessions with Landmark Education, which, if you've never heard of it, is a lot like EST. I tried to put him off politely by telling him that I couldn't afford the fee, which was $300 at the time. His response: "Easy. Finance it."

I didn't stay at that place too long.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 13, 2016, 11:36:29 AM
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Spend time on build furniture, repairing cars, programming your computer, playing a musical instrument? These are skills you can develop and enjoy. That's not to say you can't enjoy learning how to clean your toilet, and get better at it. But it simply does not compare. It's repetitive work, and you'll just have to do it again next week, and the next, forever, until you die.

Do you hand grind your coffee beans?
Do you build a fire every time you want hot water?
Do you ride a bike 300 miles to visit family?
Do you pave your own roads?
Do you grow all your own food?

Just because you can draw for yourself an arbitrary line of what has value worth trading money for does not mean in even the slightest that you have the ultimate and universal wisdom for all other human beings. Now that doesn't mean we, who choose to make informed, practical, beneficial decisions with our money shall go down the slopes of slipperiness into consumer suckerism for all eternity. It just means you don't get to decide for other people, and unless they are struggling with their finances and asking for your advice, there's really no point in you giving it. Your values are not wrong. Neither are other people's values. They are just different. (What's wrong is trying to force your values on other people.)

(I do, from time to time, grind my beans. I find it most entertaining and useful when I'm camping, and I build a fire when I want hot water, and then I walk many miles just to end up back where I started. Maybe even make my own trails and cook some freshly acquired food over a campfire. That's not my point!)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MrMoogle on May 13, 2016, 11:41:33 AM
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

That said, in general, using a maid might be unmastachian, but there are usually exceptions to the rule :)
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 13, 2016, 11:47:27 AM
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

You said that he spends less time with his family, and he clearly has less spare time to pursue his interests.  Unless he loves his job I don't think you could argue that that is mustachian . . . it's just a higher rate of pay.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BlueHouse on May 13, 2016, 11:58:11 AM
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

You said that he spends less time with his family, and he clearly has less spare time to pursue his interests.  Unless he loves his job I don't think you could argue that that is mustachian . . . it's just a higher rate of pay.
I think Moogle is saying that the extra 15 hours/week at work offset by the amount of time he previously would have spent mowing the lawn and cleaning the house.  So now he has "nearly the same amount of time", and he will achieve FI so much faster because of the choice. 
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 12:16:05 PM
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Spend time on build furniture, repairing cars, programming your computer, playing a musical instrument? These are skills you can develop and enjoy. That's not to say you can't enjoy learning how to clean your toilet, and get better at it. But it simply does not compare. It's repetitive work, and you'll just have to do it again next week, and the next, forever, until you die.

Do you hand grind your coffee beans?
Do you build a fire every time you want hot water?
Do you ride a bike 300 miles to visit family?
Do you pave your own roads?
Do you grow all your own food?

Just because you can draw for yourself an arbitrary line of what has value worth trading money for does not mean in even the slightest that you have the ultimate and universal wisdom for all other human beings. Now that doesn't mean we, who choose to make informed, practical, beneficial decisions with our money shall go down the slopes of slipperiness into consumer suckerism for all eternity. It just means you don't get to decide for other people, and unless they are struggling with their finances and asking for your advice, there's really no point in you giving it. Your values are not wrong. Neither are other people's values. They are just different. (What's wrong is trying to force your values on other people.)

(I do, from time to time, grind my beans. I find it most entertaining and useful when I'm camping, and I build a fire when I want hot water, and then I walk many miles just to end up back where I started. Maybe even make my own trails and cook some freshly acquired food over a campfire. That's not my point!)
I'm actually quite fine drawing a line in that, mustachians should clean up after themselves, at least to an acceptable level.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: iris lily on May 13, 2016, 12:26:43 PM
I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Dude, today for lunch I had bean soup.we grew the beans, dried beans in several kinds, as well as the onions in it.  My father in law grew the piggy that provided the bits of pork. We do for ourselves quite a lot and this soup was a family produced affair.

I dare you to tell me that youve grown and shelled the beans you ate this year.

Thet are so much better than beans  from another continent that have beem lying around for years in some warehouse. Why dont you value have me grown beans? Do you just fo to a store and vuy them? Surely you dont, gasp, buy them i a can??!!!

 I had house cleaners when I was working, especially during summertime when
I was had many gardens fo keep up. house cleaning was not worth my life energy. Many hands-on work IS worth my energy.

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 12:47:55 PM
I have learned over the years that some people are very much into labels. The MMM brand, or label, is something that many adherents are invested in defining.

 I let them.Defining the label, and labelling, are just not that important  to me.

If it is true that MMM never not ever allows for hOuse cleaners, so be it., I wont argue the point. To me that is a narrow definition but OK whatever.

Personally, I think the bigger and richer message of MMM is to spend money on that which you truly value.The mustachioed dude in Colorado cannot define for me what I value and neither can his followers.
MMM is not all about spending money, also about doing things for yourself to feel accomplished. He talks a lot about working all day even when retired, because it gives him a sense of accomplishment and makes him feel happier. Scientists have done studies that give the results that this is a trait of humans, feeling accomplished and happier from accomplishing things, go figure right?

Edison once said
Quote
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Later on he said
Quote
I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Dude, today for lunch I had bean soup.we grew the beans, dried beans in several kinds, as well as the onions in it.  My father in law grew the piggy that provided the bits of pork. We do for ourselves quite a lot and this soup was a family produced affair.

I dare you to tell me that youve grown and shelled the beans you ate this year.

Thet are so much better than beans  from another continent that have beem lying around for years in some warehouse. Why dont you value have me grown beans? Do you just fo to a store and vuy them? Surely you dont, gasp, buy them i a can??!!!

 I had house cleaners when I was working, especially during summertime when
I was had many gardens fo keep up. house cleaning was not worth my life energy. Many hands-on work IS worth my energy.
I buy my beans in bulk from Winco, they've probably sat in a warehouse. I grow a lot of my own vegetables, am also building my 2nd house, spend an hour a day riding my electric bike(my only vehicle) to work everyday, etc. I don't see how any of this is relevant to cleaning up after yourself to an acceptable level.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MrMoogle on May 13, 2016, 01:02:28 PM
I have a friend who had this weird work policy.  It mean working 40hours/week nets $75k/year, but working 55 hours/week nets $150k/year.  I think he added a maid and a lawn service, say $500/month, or $6k post-tax every year, and ended up spending nearly the same amount of time with his family as he had before.  So in that case, maid + lawn service = mustachian. 

You said that he spends less time with his family, and he clearly has less spare time to pursue his interests.  Unless he loves his job I don't think you could argue that that is mustachian . . . it's just a higher rate of pay.
I think Moogle is saying that the extra 15 hours/week at work offset by the amount of time he previously would have spent mowing the lawn and cleaning the house.  So now he has "nearly the same amount of time", and he will achieve FI so much faster because of the choice.
Yeah, this is what I meant.  He's not quite mustachian, but that job helped optimize his life.  Instead of the hour eating out for lunch every day, to save time packed his lunch instead.  I would consider optimizing your income per hour to fall in line with other mustachian principles, and one way was to outsource cleaning and lawn to a net positive.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 13, 2016, 01:08:33 PM
I'm actually quite fine drawing a line in that, mustachians should clean up after themselves, at least to an acceptable level.

You are absolutely entitled to draw your own lines for yourself. You don't get to define what it means to be "mustachian" (or more importantly, "How Other Humans Decide To Spend Their Life Energy/Time/Money.") You certainly aren't in charge of defining "acceptable levels of cleanliness" for other humans. We didn't vote for you. (And I don't mean the "voting" that takes place in national elections, either. I mean, like real, we decided you could make those decisions for us.)

The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task. No one is saying you should change your mind about whether cleaning is something that's acceptable to outsource. It is not for you and that shall not change, ever, regardless of your own personal circumstances between now and the end of all time. But why do you think it's acceptable for you to draw these lines for other people, to define what they value? I suppose, really, any of us arguing with you should feel ashamed we value what you say or think or feel at all! We're going to continue making our own informed decisions about what constitutes a good use of our time and money, and what does not, and it's not going to be affected by your soap box broadcast.

I don't hire a cleaner. I do have an electric coffee bean grinder and electric kettle. I do let someone (something?) in a factory make the filters for my coffee rather than trying to mush wood into fiber (and I spend a good penny for each of those filters!) I have decades of experience with computer hardware, software, networks and security, but I still pay $19.99/month to host my freelance clients' web sites safely elsewhere. My mower has a motor powered by gasoline rather than muscle.

Do I hang my head low, as I lurk among the Mustachian elite, hiding my face in shame?

Why is it so important that other people clean their toilets with their own hands? Would you like a surgeon to clean his toilet shortly before operating on your heart? Lazy bastard seems to leave that to a janitor. Sissy!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 13, 2016, 01:11:36 PM
Quote
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.

Which is which is entirely a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 13, 2016, 01:18:45 PM
Quote
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.

Which is which is entirely a matter of perspective.

Absolutely, my point exactly :)

"changing oil"
"replacing brakes"
"rebuilding engine"

"mowing yard"
"cutting down trees"
"making boards and building barns"

"washing dishes"
"cleaning toilets"
"making ceramic bowls and glass-blowing"

"cooking dinner"
"growing beans"
"raising livestock and butchering it"

Everything has levels; everything can be approached from your own perspective and values.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 01:37:16 PM
I'm actually quite fine drawing a line in that, mustachians should clean up after themselves, at least to an acceptable level.

You are absolutely entitled to draw your own lines for yourself. You don't get to define what it means to be "mustachian" (or more importantly, "How Other Humans Decide To Spend Their Life Energy/Time/Money.") You certainly aren't in charge of defining "acceptable levels of cleanliness" for other humans. We didn't vote for you. (And I don't mean the "voting" that takes place in national elections, either. I mean, like real, we decided you could make those decisions for us.)

The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task. No one is saying you should change your mind about whether cleaning is something that's acceptable to outsource. It is not for you and that shall not change, ever, regardless of your own personal circumstances between now and the end of all time. But why do you think it's acceptable for you to draw these lines for other people, to define what they value? I suppose, really, any of us arguing with you should feel ashamed we value what you say or think or feel at all! We're going to continue making our own informed decisions about what constitutes a good use of our time and money, and what does not, and it's not going to be affected by your soap box broadcast.

I don't hire a cleaner. I do have an electric coffee bean grinder and electric kettle. I do let someone (something?) in a factory make the filters for my coffee rather than trying to mush wood into fiber (and I spend a good penny for each of those filters!) I have decades of experience with computer hardware, software, networks and security, but I still pay $19.99/month to host my freelance clients' web sites safely elsewhere. My mower has a motor powered by gasoline rather than muscle.

Do I hang my head low, as I lurk among the Mustachian elite, hiding my face in shame?

Why is it so important that other people clean their toilets with their own hands? Would you like a surgeon to clean his toilet shortly before operating on your heart? Lazy bastard seems to leave that to a janitor. Sissy!
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jack on May 13, 2016, 01:43:57 PM
"I financed this 65" TV so I could rebuild my credit score"

At 0% interest then that is ok

Unless you're charging admission, a 65" TV isn't OK no matter how you paid for it!

From friend: "don't invest because we are in the final crisis of capitalism because ROBOTS"

That doesn't even make sense even if you do believe it. In that case, you should invest in the robots.

Granite counter tops are outdated -- you need to replace them!  (Should you really throw away things for which you're still paying?)

That offends me even more ecologically than it does financially.

"Go to college if you don't want to work in fast food your entire life."

Then, once you have your degree and can't get a job in your field, "What, you think you're too good to work in fast food now that you have a degree?"

I wasn't sure what the worst advice I've heard was, but that's it! Holy shit I can't stand the hypocritical assholes who say that!
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 13, 2016, 01:46:36 PM
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 02:17:44 PM
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.
What you don't seem to understand, is that I'm not talking about every individual, I'm talking about mustachians. People are idiots and will do whatever they want regardless of what anyone says, but if someone incorrectly claims to be mustachian on this forum, expect to get debated.

Here are 4 articles I quickly pulled up that all have references that hiring a maid is unmustachian. You can pretty much find stuff in every other article about it.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/04/01/mmm-spending-2015/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 13, 2016, 02:36:40 PM
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: NoraLenderbee on May 13, 2016, 02:38:30 PM
Do Mustachians also take their trash to the dump themselves (by bicycle, of course), or is it OK to pay the city to pick it up once a week? Do Mustachians generate their own electricity (by bicycle?), or pay the utility company to generate it and transport it to their dwelling? Do Mustachians in cold climates keep a hothouse for growing their own orange trees, or do they pay for other people to grow oranges, pick them, squeeze them, package the juice, and drive it to the grocery store?

I think it's funny that it's OK to quit working because you want to CHOOSE how you use your time, but it's not OK to quit cleaning your toilet for the same reason.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 13, 2016, 02:38:37 PM
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.

All this. Like I said in a previous post, I recently invested 2 hours into replacing 3 components on my HVAC system which saved me like $1,300 based on what I was quoted by HVAC tech. And you guys are moaning because I won't spend 3 hours on a Saturday morning cleaning to save $100(while you probably contract out all your hvac work).
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: a-scho on May 13, 2016, 03:05:15 PM
I'm not telling people what to do with their own money, but don't claim it's mustachian. Also don't talk about it on the forums if you don't want to debate about it. You can say that Mustachianism is about spending money on what you value, but Pete has also written articles against doing things like hiring maids, which makes it fair to say that it's unmustachian.

Please reference claims of it being Mustachian.
Also please explain why we would care if it's labeled as Mustachian.

What we are claiming is that it's Mustachian to think critically about how you spend money and time, and whether it's worth it to you, personally, if it aligns with your own values. If you're doing that, you're living your life in the driver's seat. Just because you're driving differently than someone else with different values doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. What you don't (seem to) understand is it is your opinion that housecleaning falls into some non-negotiable list of things that must be performed by every individual without any regard to what they value, prefer, consider or if they might actually be living better lives by not doing it.
What you don't seem to understand, is that I'm not talking about every individual, I'm talking about mustachians. People are idiots and will do whatever they want regardless of what anyone says, but if someone incorrectly claims to be mustachian on this forum, expect to get debated.

Here are 4 articles I quickly pulled up that all have references that hiring a maid is unmustachian. You can pretty much find stuff in every other article about it.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/04/01/mmm-spending-2015/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

This reminds me of Catholicism...........We can't call ourselves Mustachian because of X, Y, Z.....Then maybe we need to create a protestant offshoot that is very similar to Mustachian but with a few tweeks. These are the things I would nail on the door.

1. You are allowed to spend money on things you could do yourself but choose not to because you don't like doing it. As long as you accept the financial consequences of that choice.
2. You choose where you spend your free time....and how much it costs.

I have always been frugal and became FIRE before I read my first MMM post. I don't like cleaning and I live with somebody who won't let strangers into our house to clean it. He also doesn't like cleaning. What ends up happening is we rarely clean and the house looks it. I read a previous post where apparently I'm not Mustachian if I don't keep it clean to a certain level. So, I guess I'm not Mustachian.....I'm an Aschoist.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: dandarc on May 13, 2016, 03:07:48 PM
"Buy my commercial property for $25K(half of fair market value) and rent-to-own it back to me for $1K / month for 3 years.  I'm considering filing bankruptcy, but don't worry about that."
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BrickByBrick on May 13, 2016, 04:08:06 PM
There are a lot of judgments being passed around in this thread.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 04:13:39 PM
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jack on May 13, 2016, 04:15:20 PM
"Buy my commercial property for $25K(half of fair market value) and rent-to-own it back to me for $1K / month for 3 years.  I'm considering filing bankruptcy, but don't worry about that."

Wouldn't the value of that particular bit of advice strongly depend on what the fair market rent is once you've evicted his insolvent ass?
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
"Buy my commercial property for $25K(half of fair market value) and rent-to-own it back to me for $1K / month for 3 years.  I'm considering filing bankruptcy, but don't worry about that."

Wouldn't the value of that particular bit of advice strongly depend on what the fair market rent is once you've evicted his insolvent ass?
that is actually the title of a recent thread on this forum.... You can find more details if you look for it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cpa Cat on May 13, 2016, 05:44:16 PM
whoa people who are FIREd have maids holy cow and i noticed 1 was 58 so you likely dont have kids at home anymore. questions galore

1. how big is your house
2. wtf are you doing all day everday you dont have time to pick up and clean once a week
3. i can understand the excuses for those who are not FIREd (kinda - not really but they are better)
4. i guess if you have the money who cares but i mean to each his own. 
5. we all FIRE so we can do whatever we want and watching a maid clean while i drink starbucks isnt my plan but i guess if those things make you happy.

1. Large. But that's not the problem.

2. I'm sure I could make time to clean my house. I do tidy it. I don't live in a slovenly mess, leaving food and dirty kleenex everywhere I go, waiting for my maids to come pick that up for me. They do the vacuuming, washing the floors, cleaning bathrooms, etc.

Things I would rather do than clean: 1) garden, 2) mow the lawn, 3) read on my porch, 4) go for a walk, 5) watch a documentary, 6) volunteer for a worthy organization, 7) have a conversation with my spouse, 8) play video games, 9) do tax work.

The last one is important. Despite being FIRE'd, I accidentally-on-purpose became self-employed as a tax-practitioner. I can choose to do work that I enjoy more than cleaning and people will pay me more per hour than what I pay to have my house cleaned. Why would I ever choose to spend time inefficiently cleaning my house (they do a 3x better job than me, 3x faster than me), and hating it the entire time? And when I have free time, why would I choose to do something I loathe, instead of something fun that I'd actually like to do?

If I wanted to trade my time doing labor that I hate for $30/hr, then I didn't really need to quit my job, did I? I can't understand the concept of trading my job for other labor that I don't want to do.

3. Why? Before I was FIRE'd, it was far more important to save money so that I could be financial independent. I was a lot more willing to give up my time in exchange for dollars earned OR saved. Being financial independent means I don't have to do that anymore.

4. I do.

5. I do not watch the maids clean or drink Starbucks. It's not really that having a maid service brings me joy (although they are very nice ladies). It's that other things bring me a lot more joy than cleaning. I prefer to do things that bring me actual happiness, as opposed to things that suck. I still do some things that suck. There's plenty enough chores to go around in life.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: woopwoop on May 13, 2016, 05:59:00 PM
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.
This for me, is the exact reason that I would never hire a maid as long as I am able-bodied. Cleaning your own toilet is a necessary and unpleasant task. Cleaning somebody else's toilet is much more unpleasant. And if I'm going to pay money to people to do things for me, I don't want them to be demeaning, unpleasant tasks that I can easily accomplish on my own. Perhaps it's because I used to help my mom work as a housekeeper, but personal cleanliness is one of the most basic things that I think is pretty bad to outsource. To me it doesn't pass the sniff test of: "would I be willing to stand there watching while the person did the job I paid them for?" Would you be willing to stand there in the doorway just watching while someone wiped up your pubic hairs and scrubbed your shit stains? People keep saying that if you have the money, then whatever goes, but to me there's an aspect of morality to it that isn't there with growing and grinding coffee beans, for example.

Apart from that, the worst houseguests I've ever had were, without exception, people who hired out maids and who never thought about cleaning up after themselves. I just think it's training yourself in the worst way.

And for a better contribution to the thread: the worst financial advice I've ever received came from a broke friend who couldn't buy enough insurance. I don't know if it was a family thing, but she always was recommending that I get life insurance or accident insurance or travel insurance. As a math person, I always shy away from insurance that isn't mandatory because, well, it's almost always a bad deal. But she was adamant: "Did you get a warranty for your cell phone?" Uh, no. The warranty would cost half as much as my phone again. "But what if you drop it in water?!"
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 13, 2016, 07:56:40 PM
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 13, 2016, 11:52:03 PM
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.
You don't have to agree with all aspects of mustachianism, but don't claim maids are mustachian, as they clearly are not
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 14, 2016, 05:16:47 AM
Quote
...there really is a pattern that shows up as people transition from desperate consumer to seasoned retiree.

That pattern could be summed up like this: “Getting rich is more mental than it is tactical“.

Quote
If you are following Muscle over Motor, your leisure time is packed with active high-effort outdoor activities which you love.

Quote
Instead, it is a work in progress where we learn as much as possible about the entire planet and the various lifeforms therein, and do whatever we feel is most worthwhile given our limited time aboard this fine ship. Nothing is off-limits based on cost, because making money is fairly easy at this point.We do whatever we want, go wherever we want, and buy anything and everything we feel is worthwhile.

Oh I understand you're not talking about "every individual." Really, it's those with no Mustachian education that are most likely to spend money on things they should be doing themselves without giving it a first thought, let alone a second. Here, we have some education, we know that we've got to make conscious, active decisions about how we spend our time and money, and we've got a few examples here where people are choosing to spend a small percentage of their money to save time. Mustachian individuals make lots of big and little decisions that save their money, and eventually, they get to a point where they've got more money, and it bought them more time because their money is working harder than they are (or can)... and so money has become worth less than time to them, and to give up money to remove a use of your time that you find particularly distasteful is perfectly reasonable.

What if, instead of buying freedom (financial independence), someone told you that when you've earned your target nest egg, you don't get to decide how to use that money, or how to use your time? How would you live your life differently now? See - this is critically important. Humanity is about being able to make your own decisions. And Mustachians make very informed decisions, and no matter how much opinion is thrown around, if someone has reached a point in their life where they have enough money to reduce time spent on unpleasant things, there is no justification for taking that decision away from that Mustachian individual.
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.

There are facts and math behind these not something written and compiled years ago for political reasons.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ender on May 14, 2016, 06:12:38 AM
Do whatever you want, but in this article, MMM gives the "blog’s Official Position on Outsourcing" Which to me, clearly makes a maid not mustachian.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

The funny thing is it wasn't very many years later that he wrote an article lauding the benefits of outsourcing his taxes.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/02/10/should-you-do-your-own-taxes/

You know why? Because it made sense to do that.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 14, 2016, 08:57:34 AM
Quote
The point of "growing beans" vs "cleaning toilets" is that one of them is a fulfilling life skill, and one of them is a necessary, unpleasant task.

Which is which is entirely a matter of perspective.

Absolutely, my point exactly :)

"changing oil"
"replacing brakes"
"rebuilding engine"

"mowing yard"
"cutting down trees"
"making boards and building barns"

"washing dishes"
"cleaning toilets"
"making ceramic bowls and glass-blowing"

"cooking dinner"
"growing beans"
"raising livestock and butchering it"

Everything has levels; everything can be approached from your own perspective and values.

Hiring out a task because of differing values is one thing.  It's when you start hiring out a task because it's 'unpleasant' though is where you make a mistake.  If daily things that need to be done are unpleasant, that's indicative of a poor mindset.  Fix your mindset rather than hire out your task.  There's an awful lot of stuff that I've learned to enjoy and find joy in doing that I once found unpleasant.  Including cleaning a toilet.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cpa Cat on May 14, 2016, 10:26:06 AM
Hiring out a task because of differing values is one thing.  It's when you start hiring out a task because it's 'unpleasant' though is where you make a mistake.  If daily things that need to be done are unpleasant, that's indicative of a poor mindset.  Fix your mindset rather than hire out your task.  There's an awful lot of stuff that I've learned to enjoy and find joy in doing that I once found unpleasant.  Including cleaning a toilet.

Many people hire me to do their taxes because they find doing taxes to be unpleasant and time consuming. I don't accuse them of having a poor mindset. People don't have to enjoy everything. And there is efficiency to hiring a specialist to complete some tasks.

And if I'm going to pay money to people to do things for me, I don't want them to be demeaning, unpleasant tasks that I can easily accomplish on my own. Perhaps it's because I used to help my mom work as a housekeeper, but personal cleanliness is one of the most basic things that I think is pretty bad to outsource. To me it doesn't pass the sniff test of: "would I be willing to stand there watching while the person did the job I paid them for?" Would you be willing to stand there in the doorway just watching while someone wiped up your pubic hairs and scrubbed your shit stains? People keep saying that if you have the money, then whatever goes, but to me there's an aspect of morality to it that isn't there with growing and grinding coffee beans, for example.

Apart from that, the worst houseguests I've ever had were, without exception, people who hired out maids and who never thought about cleaning up after themselves. I just think it's training yourself in the worst way.

I wouldn't watch my cleaning ladies clean my house, because they are professional women who do not require my supervision or input. I try not to get in their way or waste their time, because their time is valuable. I don't presume that being a maid is degrading - it's simply their job. They seem to have a good time chatting and working as a team, but I would not insult their intelligence or decision-making skills by asking them if their smiles are hiding their unhappiness and degradation.

I also don't understand the assumption that my house is filthy and covered in shit stains after two weeks or that just because I have a maid service twice a month, I refuse to pick up after myself. My house would be rather horrific to live in if I never picked anything up and left shit smears to rot in my bathroom. An every-two-week cleaning wouldn't do much to improve that situation.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 14, 2016, 10:56:58 AM
I doubt maids resent people for hiring them to do "demeaning" work. On the contrary they're probably happy to be hired and given the opportunity to work in the profession they chose. Is it morally wrong to go to a fast food restaurant because you deem flipping burgers demeaning too? What about using a trash pickup service? Surely if cleaning a house is demeaning than picking up someone's garbage from the curb is too.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: woopwoop on May 14, 2016, 04:43:52 PM
I'm not going to get into a lengthy discussion about "choosing" to do housework as a profession. It's hard on your body and ill-paying, and most women who do it are not doing it as their first choice of occupation, but rather because it's an easy entry job, especially for immigrants and unskilled workers. Have you spent lots of time cleaning other people's bathrooms and linens? It sucks. You can argue against it with any sort of equivocation you want, but saying that they should be happy for the work because they're getting paid is a real slippery slope that I don't agree with. To me there's a spectrum of morality when it comes to outsourcing labor, and ignoring that aspect of it completely is antithetical to mindful living. Obviously I've drawn the line at a different point than you, but to pretend there's no line at all is wrong.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 14, 2016, 05:57:39 PM
I'm not going to get into a lengthy discussion about "choosing" to do housework as a profession. It's hard on your body and ill-paying, and most women who do it are not doing it as their first choice of occupation, but rather because it's an easy entry job, especially for immigrants and unskilled workers. Have you spent lots of time cleaning other people's bathrooms and linens? It sucks. You can argue against it with any sort of equivocation you want, but saying that they should be happy for the work because they're getting paid is a real slippery slope that I don't agree with. To me there's a spectrum of morality when it comes to outsourcing labor, and ignoring that aspect of it completely is antithetical to mindful living. Obviously I've drawn the line at a different point than you, but to pretend there's no line at all is wrong.

Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Cressida on May 14, 2016, 06:07:52 PM
I'm not going to get into a lengthy discussion about "choosing" to do housework as a profession. It's hard on your body and ill-paying, and most women who do it are not doing it as their first choice of occupation, but rather because it's an easy entry job, especially for immigrants and unskilled workers. Have you spent lots of time cleaning other people's bathrooms and linens? It sucks. You can argue against it with any sort of equivocation you want, but saying that they should be happy for the work because they're getting paid is a real slippery slope that I don't agree with. To me there's a spectrum of morality when it comes to outsourcing labor, and ignoring that aspect of it completely is antithetical to mindful living. Obviously I've drawn the line at a different point than you, but to pretend there's no line at all is wrong.

Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.

Without getting too far into this discussion, I will just point out that trash pickup pays a lot better than cleaning houses.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: woopwoop on May 14, 2016, 08:33:24 PM
Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.
Of course I use trash pickup. The environmental impact of everyone driving their trash individually to the dump would be stupid, not to mention most cities have automated truck pickup nowadays. I don't hire someone to come personally to my house, take my trash out of my kitchen, put it in the bin, and replace the liner. Do you? Would you view that as okay if you had the money and didn't want to touch the bag of trash yourself because you find it too unpleasant and tedious? Or is there absolutely no line at all to be drawn when it comes to outsourcing unpleasant work?

I mean, this is frankly ridiculous. There's a guy comparing getting paid $300/hr to do taxes in an office and getting paid $15/hr to scrub bathrooms as both "unpleasant" work. Come the fuck on.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: iris lily on May 14, 2016, 08:49:38 PM
Answer this question truthfully. Do you have a trash pickup service or do you personally take all your trash to the dump yourself? Because that job is hard on the body too, and by your standards certainly demeaning.
Of course I use trash pickup. The environmental impact of everyone driving their trash individually to the dump would be stupid, not to mention most cities have automated truck pickup nowadays. I don't hire someone to come personally to my house, take my trash out of my kitchen, put it in the bin, and replace the liner. Do you? Would you view that as okay if you had the money and didn't want to touch the bag of trash yourself because you find it too unpleasant and tedious? Or is there absolutely no line at all to be drawn when it comes to outsourcing unpleasant work?

I mean, this is frankly ridiculous. There's a guy comparing getting paid $300/hr to do taxes in an office and getting paid $15/hr to scrub bathrooms as both "unpleasant" work. Come the fuck on.

Still trying to understand where you draw the line. Lets take the outdoor equivilant of housecleaning: gardening..

I think of them as being similar, only I dont like house cleaning as much as gardening. . Cleaning toilets take up about .8 of that time, just like picking up dog poo in our yard is a tiny percentage of the time  I spend making our yard and garden neat and tidy and pretty.

So, maintennce gardeners seem similar in pay and status to house cleaners. If I outsource my house cleaning but insist on doing my own gardening including dog poop duty, am I only partially corrupt?

Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: VaCPA on May 15, 2016, 05:01:32 AM
I mean, this is frankly ridiculous.

This is ridiculous. Comparing being a maid to basically slave labor or something and implying it's immoral to hire them. I doubt you've ever even talked to a maid and asked them how they feel about their job. They'd probably be offended if they knew how lowly you thought of what they do.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Kaybee on May 15, 2016, 09:51:20 AM
First off...can we just stop debating the maid service and the definition of Mustachian?  Nobody's mind is going to be changed and the thread has been completely hijacked from its original, amusing purpose. :)

The worst financial advice I was ever given involved my first vehicle.  I was fresh-faced out of school and *needed* a car to get me to my first job (there was no public transportation where I lived and the job was sandwiched between a HCOL area and an actually dangerous area about an hour's drive away).  My super-non-Mustachian parents offered to loan me a $1-2k deposit so I could lease a vehicle.  So I go to dealerships specifically looking for a lease (happened to find out students didn't require deposits at the time so ended up not needing Mom and Dad's money).  During the paperwork session, they ask if I wanted the extended warranty.  I'm not sure so I call non-Mustachian father who thinks its a good idea for only an extra $150 a month.  A few years in, I become more frugal and realize how much money I've lost to this lease.  I did buy it out though, walked in with a bank draft that was based on the cash I had saved.  A few years of no car payments later, the parentals recommended I replace it with a newer vehicle so I wouldn't have to deal with the cost of repairs. *shakes head*. I drove that car for 11 years, at which point the driver of a *giant* pick up in my rural area failed to see me (he was texting) and T-boned me hard enough to write the vehicle off. 

Unfortunately, post-accident (while fearful of driving), I was advised to acquire a larger vehicle (looking back I'm not sure why since the size of my car had nothing to do with the accident)...I did so and then kinda got hooked so I'm still a failure in the Mustachian vehicle department.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: jeromedawg on May 15, 2016, 10:14:44 AM
Renting is just throwing your money away, buy a house!

Or, "Buying a new home (to live in) is the best investment you could ever make!" - oh, I'm sure they just meant "investment" in the context of making memories with your perfect family of 5. LOL.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: jeromedawg on May 15, 2016, 10:18:43 AM
"Not paying off your full credit card balance each month actually gets you better credit because companies will more willingly led to you because they know they can make money off of you."

Ummmmm... No. Just no.

This is (or was, rather) my in-laws! They think that floating their credit card debt is the way to go because the more they spend the better it looks. To the extent that they were incurring late-fees galore. So now my wife accesses their accounts to make sure they're paying their bills on time. It's a bit ridiculous - they run a restaurant business yet they don't know how to check their bills online and rely on the mail (they're very old school Chinese people). It feels a bit like taking care of children on the financial side with them at times.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: jeromedawg on May 15, 2016, 10:23:52 AM
Everyone (for the most part) has that one thing (or multiple) they're willing to spend money on. For me, it's nice restaurants. For some, it's travel. For others, a boat or nice car. And for yet others, it's not having to do chores.

Mustachianism isn't about not spending money at all ever. It's about using (and saving) your money efficiently to ensure your long-term quality of life. As long as your hair isn't on fire and you've cut out everything you consider non-essential, spending money isn't in itself Un-Mustachian.


Agreed. I enjoy fly fishing... does Mustachianism mean I should suppress my desires because fly fishing is known to be an expensive hobby? Where there's a will to find stuff on the cheap, there's a way. And even finding stuff on the cheap is a relative term. What it ultimately comes down to is having a sound enough mind to know that you're not throwing your life savings away on that hobby... unless of course thats what you want to retire doing :D
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: boarder42 on May 15, 2016, 10:44:13 AM
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 15, 2016, 12:17:47 PM
Hiring out a task because of differing values is one thing.  It's when you start hiring out a task because it's 'unpleasant' though is where you make a mistake.  If daily things that need to be done are unpleasant, that's indicative of a poor mindset.  Fix your mindset rather than hire out your task.  There's an awful lot of stuff that I've learned to enjoy and find joy in doing that I once found unpleasant.  Including cleaning a toilet.

Many people hire me to do their taxes because they find doing taxes to be unpleasant and time consuming. I don't accuse them of having a poor mindset. People don't have to enjoy everything. And there is efficiency to hiring a specialist to complete some tasks.

People don't have to enjoy everything . . . but you should make significant effort to learn to enjoy any everyday, common task.  Even if you can afford to pay someone else to do it.

There's a clear difference in mindset between choosing to do one task over another for convenience sake or differing values rather than deciding that something is unpleasant out of hand and paying others to avoid it.  In the former you're choosing the most pleasurable of two enjoyable activities.  In the future if you can't afford to have someone else do the task for you then it's not so bad because it's an enjoyable task - so you'll be happy doing it.  In the latter, you are stuck into a very inflexible way of looking at things.  If in the future you can't afford to have someone else do the task for you, then you are forced to do something that you've decreed is unpleasant - which guarantees unhappiness.

By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: thd7t on May 15, 2016, 12:35:15 PM
I mean, this is frankly ridiculous.

This is ridiculous. Comparing being a maid to basically slave labor or something and implying it's immoral to hire them. I doubt you've ever even talked to a maid and asked them how they feel about their job. They'd probably be offended if they knew how lowly you thought of what they do.
Well, many housecleaning services are fairly exploitative. There are pretty good studies of it. For a really good read on the subject, I strongly recommend "Nickeled and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich.
A lot of people in this thread (on both sides of the outsourcing issue) are making claims that people on this forum are more intelligent than average and that they do analysis of their use of time and money.

Reading on here for the last few years, I would say that on average, posters here are of average intelligence and are set in their ways. We're all pretty good at rationalizing our positions, but terrible at really considering anything that challenges decisions we've made.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: csprof on May 15, 2016, 12:47:40 PM
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

I think the underlying issue here is that many of us have a different view of "mustachian" than you do.

My particular view is that it's about being mindful with your money, and and making (as GuitarStv suggested in his post) a good-faith effort to understand the options involved in your financial decisions, be that hiring a housekeeper, buying a 3 vs. 7 year old car (ok, ok, I just can't put "new" in there with a straight face. :), etc.  And then making the decisions based upon a rational understanding of their big-picture effect on the world, the present you, and the future you.

Again, quoting GuitarStv:

Quote
By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

Someone who's never tried doing the housekeeping themselves isn't capable of making this decision in what I'd call a mustachian way.  On the other hand, I suspect that none of the FIREd posters who've already chimed in in this thread are in that boat.

There are some people for whom owning a cell phone at all would not be "mustachian" (for example, someone living in an area without cell reception! :-).  There are others for whom it would be a maximally mustachian decision (it's their business phone and a requirement for their clients to be able to contact them).

It's not crazy to think that a housekeeper falls in the same bin.  My post-tax hourly take-home pay is over $100/hour.  My housekeeper is under $25hour.  I work a lot - and I love it.  I've spent years doing my own housekeeping, and at this point in my life, a housekeeper is a very carefully-considered decision about spending money to be able to allocate my time for things that I enjoy more -- cooking for my family, learning more about fixing my house myself, etc.

So yes - I think there's a mustachian way to arrive at the decision to hire a housekeeper.

For some of us, "mustachian" is a process, not a set of rules to be slavishly adhered to.  For you, it seems different, and that's simply fine.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 15, 2016, 10:55:13 PM
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

I think the underlying issue here is that many of us have a different view of "mustachian" than you do.

My particular view is that it's about being mindful with your money, and and making (as GuitarStv suggested in his post) a good-faith effort to understand the options involved in your financial decisions, be that hiring a housekeeper, buying a 3 vs. 7 year old car (ok, ok, I just can't put "new" in there with a straight face. :), etc.  And then making the decisions based upon a rational understanding of their big-picture effect on the world, the present you, and the future you.

Again, quoting GuitarStv:

Quote
By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

Someone who's never tried doing the housekeeping themselves isn't capable of making this decision in what I'd call a mustachian way.  On the other hand, I suspect that none of the FIREd posters who've already chimed in in this thread are in that boat.

There are some people for whom owning a cell phone at all would not be "mustachian" (for example, someone living in an area without cell reception! :-).  There are others for whom it would be a maximally mustachian decision (it's their business phone and a requirement for their clients to be able to contact them).

It's not crazy to think that a housekeeper falls in the same bin.  My post-tax hourly take-home pay is over $100/hour.  My housekeeper is under $25hour.  I work a lot - and I love it.  I've spent years doing my own housekeeping, and at this point in my life, a housekeeper is a very carefully-considered decision about spending money to be able to allocate my time for things that I enjoy more -- cooking for my family, learning more about fixing my house myself, etc.

So yes - I think there's a mustachian way to arrive at the decision to hire a housekeeper.

For some of us, "mustachian" is a process, not a set of rules to be slavishly adhered to.  For you, it seems different, and that's simply fine.
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ender on May 16, 2016, 05:55:31 AM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

And yet, his position on certain aspects of outsourcing changed only a few years later. When his circumstances changed and it became more efficient for him.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/02/10/should-you-do-your-own-taxes/

Mr. MM has a carefully crafted blog in order to attract visitors and raise his view count. Acting as if he is somehow a demagogue with an actual cohesive and comprehensive viewpoint on everything inspired by the book of MMM? Meh. Basically everything he says boils down to essentially "don't spend money on dumb stuff." But "dumb stuff" is fairly arbitrarily, as you can tell just from his outsourcing post and followup changing his mind on at least one aspect.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 16, 2016, 05:58:09 AM
Again the point everyone was making wasn't don't do what makes you happy. It was that it's not a mustachian thing to do period.  And if you're on here trying to justify something that makes you happy you already know this and you're just trying to get someone else to approve it. Who the hell cares what internet strangers think. Just don't try to call it mustachian.

I think the underlying issue here is that many of us have a different view of "mustachian" than you do.

My particular view is that it's about being mindful with your money, and and making (as GuitarStv suggested in his post) a good-faith effort to understand the options involved in your financial decisions, be that hiring a housekeeper, buying a 3 vs. 7 year old car (ok, ok, I just can't put "new" in there with a straight face. :), etc.  And then making the decisions based upon a rational understanding of their big-picture effect on the world, the present you, and the future you.

Again, quoting GuitarStv:

Quote
By hiring someone to complete common tasks that you've decided are unpleasant is a poor mindset.  Holding this mindset risks your future happiness for no benefit.  So I say again, it's better long term to fix your mindset.  Once you've fixed your mindset and are deciding between preference for pleasurable alternatives, hire away.

Someone who's never tried doing the housekeeping themselves isn't capable of making this decision in what I'd call a mustachian way.  On the other hand, I suspect that none of the FIREd posters who've already chimed in in this thread are in that boat.

There are some people for whom owning a cell phone at all would not be "mustachian" (for example, someone living in an area without cell reception! :-).  There are others for whom it would be a maximally mustachian decision (it's their business phone and a requirement for their clients to be able to contact them).

It's not crazy to think that a housekeeper falls in the same bin.  My post-tax hourly take-home pay is over $100/hour.  My housekeeper is under $25hour.  I work a lot - and I love it.  I've spent years doing my own housekeeping, and at this point in my life, a housekeeper is a very carefully-considered decision about spending money to be able to allocate my time for things that I enjoy more -- cooking for my family, learning more about fixing my house myself, etc.

So yes - I think there's a mustachian way to arrive at the decision to hire a housekeeper.

For some of us, "mustachian" is a process, not a set of rules to be slavishly adhered to.  For you, it seems different, and that's simply fine.
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

The message on hiring stuff out is a bit less clear than you make it out.  MMM also said that he has someone do his taxes for him.  He said that he always hires someone else to do the mudding/sanding of drywall on builds because he thinks that the pros do a better job than he does.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on May 16, 2016, 07:35:52 AM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: infogoon on May 16, 2016, 07:35:58 AM
You're acting as if these articles are equivalent to the Gospel of Matthew.

It's pretty hilarious watching "Mustachianism" go through the same growing pains as any other religion, complete with literalists who insist that any deviation from the Sacred Texts is an act of apostasy.

I always thought that the point of this whole thing was "spend money mindfully on the stuff that matters to you". Then again, I always thought the point of Christianity was "don't be a dick to other people, and help out where you  can", and not the thousands of pages of other guidelines and strictures we've managed to build around it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 10:14:56 AM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Cool Story, FYI: when the general consensus on ERE Forums and MMM Forums is that maids are for consumerist suckas, there is likely a good reason.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MrMoogle on May 16, 2016, 10:57:09 AM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
I'm pretty sure "Mustachian" came from the forum and not the man himself :)
Which is good, since otherwise it's pretty egotistical to refer it that way.  He just uses the word "frugal".

I generally agree with what MMM says, but there have been some posts that I've said to myself, "I understand what he's saying, but I disagree."  I think his views are the closest to mine that I've found, so I stay here.  Most of my views were the way they were before I found this site, but some have been shaped by his posts.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 11:13:56 AM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
I'm pretty sure "Mustachian" came from the forum and not the man himself :)
Which is good, since otherwise it's pretty egotistical to refer it that way.  He just uses the word "frugal".

I generally agree with what MMM says, but there have been some posts that I've said to myself, "I understand what he's saying, but I disagree."  I think his views are the closest to mine that I've found, so I stay here.  Most of my views were the way they were before I found this site, but some have been shaped by his posts.
He uses the word "Mustachian" very often in his articles. I assume he came up with it, but I could be wrong. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with people on things.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: MrMoogle on May 16, 2016, 01:19:17 PM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
I'm pretty sure "Mustachian" came from the forum and not the man himself :)
Which is good, since otherwise it's pretty egotistical to refer it that way.  He just uses the word "frugal".

I generally agree with what MMM says, but there have been some posts that I've said to myself, "I understand what he's saying, but I disagree."  I think his views are the closest to mine that I've found, so I stay here.  Most of my views were the way they were before I found this site, but some have been shaped by his posts.
He uses the word "Mustachian" very often in his articles. I assume he came up with it, but I could be wrong. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with people on things.
Oh, maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: ender on May 16, 2016, 01:43:59 PM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Cool Story, FYI: when the general consensus on ERE Forums and MMM Forums is that maids are for consumerist suckas, there is likely a good reason.

Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 02:00:12 PM
Mustachianism can be defined by 1 person... Mr. Money Mustache. He made this blogs official position on outsourcing, and thus saying maids, gardeners, pool cleaners, etc. are all unmustachian. It's okay to disagree with parts of mustachianism, but don't try to justify it as being mustachian when it very clearly is not.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

FYI: when people on r/personalfinance, r/frugal, r/financialindependence, and other personal finance blogs refer to MMM's readers as being "cult-like," they're referring to people like you.
Cool Story, FYI: when the general consensus on ERE Forums and MMM Forums is that maids are for consumerist suckas, there is likely a good reason.

Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 16, 2016, 02:06:50 PM
Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
So... there is no way in the world that the majority of this forum would ever consider it valuable to outsource maid service? If you made $1 million / hour, up to 24 hours per day, it would still be worth it to stop doing that, and clean your house, rather than paying for it? Even if you owned nothing more than your humble home - no car, no electronics, no consumer products, and you biked an hour to work each way, and spent an hour gardening, and an hour cooking, if you still decided to spend $25 / hour to hire a maid to clean up, and it did not affect your retirement date at all, because you were already beyond financially independent, doing so would instantly make that person a consumerist sucka.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 02:07:57 PM
Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
So... there is no way in the world that the majority of this forum would ever consider it valuable to outsource maid service? If you made $1 million / hour, up to 24 hours per day, it would still be worth it to stop doing that, and clean your house, rather than paying for it? Even if you owned nothing more than your humble home - no car, no electronics, no consumer products, and you biked an hour to work each way, and spent an hour gardening, and an hour cooking, if you still decided to spend $25 / hour to hire a maid to clean up, and it did not affect your retirement date at all, because you were already beyond financially independent, doing so would instantly make that person a consumerist sucka.
Now you're getting it.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 16, 2016, 02:13:07 PM
And now you get why we agree you are being ridiculous. Just because the vast majority of people are unaware of their bad spending habits, and wasting money on maids which affects their retirement date, it simply doesn't apply to all cases no matter what without any reason or logic. The man himself doesn't want you to follow a strict list of rules. He wants you to do things that make sense within the criteria of your specific situation. If the man himself did his own taxes, he'd probably end up paying more in taxes. But when someone who works 9-5 pays someone to do his taxes, he pays the same amount of taxes, but loses $100+ for the unnecessary service. If someone runs a business and can close a deal by working an extra hour, and paying a maid to clean up while he's busy making mad cash helps him free up the time to make his business more successful, it's a GOD DAMN SMART CHOICE! Obviously I'm not saying it makes sense for most people here. There's a good chance that that majority a) makes less $100/hour, b) is not financially independent and c) can make time to clean their house without diminishing their qualify of life. Regardless, it's still not a universal rule of frugality.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 02:16:43 PM
And now you get why we agree you are being ridiculous. Just because the vast majority of people are unaware of their bad spending habits, and wasting money on maids which affects their retirement date, it simply doesn't apply to all cases no matter what without any reason or logic. The man himself doesn't want you to follow a strict list of rules. He wants you to do things that make sense within the criteria of your specific situation. If the man himself did his own taxes, he'd probably end up paying more in taxes. But when someone who works 9-5 pays someone to do his taxes, he pays the same amount of taxes, but loses $100+ for the unnecessary service. If someone runs a business and can close a deal by working an extra hour, and paying a maid to clean up while he's busy making mad cash helps him free up the time to make his business more successful, it's a GOD DAMN SMART CHOICE! Obviously I'm not saying it makes sense for most people here. There's a good chance that that majority a) makes less $100/hour, b) is not financially independent and c) can make time to clean their house without diminishing their qualify of life. Regardless, it's still not a universal rule of frugality.
I don't think I'm being ridiculous, I was agreeing with your statement that hiring maids makes you a consumerist sucka. Something can be a smart choice financially and unmustachian at the same time.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: neo von retorch on May 16, 2016, 02:23:48 PM
OFF TOPIC
We need a new (or revived*) thread about What it means to be Mustachian, as this is thoroughly off topic. Regardless, perhaps the best way to define what it is to go back to the beginning, and define what it is not:

Quote
But many of my friends and former coworkers remained broke, constantly complaining about how hard middle-class life is these days, and how much they would like to be able to afford to lose at least one of their six-figure salaries so someone could stay home with the kids.

These comments were generally made over expensive pints of microbrew at a restaurant, or on Facebook between announcements regarding the purchase of brand new dealer-financed Subarus, snowboarding trips, and road biking equipment.

And indeed, the whole country seemed to be displaying the same odd behavior: living ridiculously expensive lifestyles while thinking they were completely normal, and then being baffled when they had no money left over to buy their own freedom. All while being so busy that they didn’t even have time to understand the science behind why this behavior is trashing the very home that makes our lives even possible.

If you're already really smart with your money, mindfully spending it based on your values, knowing the consequences / tradeoffs of spending that money, knowing it's not normal, and not being mystified about where your money is going, you're already living up to the principles this site was founded on. Simple as that. Any specific behavior you have within those guidelines is irrelevant.

*http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/authoritative-philosophy-of-mustachianism/ http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-makes-you-'officially'-mustachian/
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: BlueHouse on May 16, 2016, 02:32:26 PM
Do you think that the consensus on this forum would be that a maid service at $25/hour is a waste of money if you are able to make $100/hour yourself during that time otherwise?

I'm... not convinced it would be.
I'm fairly certain the consensus of this forum is that hiring a maid is for consumerist suckas.
So... there is no way in the world that the majority of this forum would ever consider it valuable to outsource maid service? If you made $1 million / hour, up to 24 hours per day, it would still be worth it to stop doing that, and clean your house, rather than paying for it? Even if you owned nothing more than your humble home - no car, no electronics, no consumer products, and you biked an hour to work each way, and spent an hour gardening, and an hour cooking, if you still decided to spend $25 / hour to hire a maid to clean up, and it did not affect your retirement date at all, because you were already beyond financially independent, doing so would instantly make that person a consumerist sucka.
Now you're getting it.
This is absolutely silly.  No, you need to weigh the benefits of each situation against the costs and do an analysis.   I don't think MMM would ever advocate turning off the big thinking machine in our heads just so that we could put a label on ourselves.  Take a step back and look at the big picture.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: Jeremy E. on May 16, 2016, 05:22:46 PM
OFF TOPIC
We need a new (or revived*) thread about What it means to be Mustachian, as this is thoroughly off topic. Regardless, perhaps the best way to define what it is to go back to the beginning, and define what it is not:

Quote
But many of my friends and former coworkers remained broke, constantly complaining about how hard middle-class life is these days, and how much they would like to be able to afford to lose at least one of their six-figure salaries so someone could stay home with the kids.

These comments were generally made over expensive pints of microbrew at a restaurant, or on Facebook between announcements regarding the purchase of brand new dealer-financed Subarus, snowboarding trips, and road biking equipment.

And indeed, the whole country seemed to be displaying the same odd behavior: living ridiculously expensive lifestyles while thinking they were completely normal, and then being baffled when they had no money left over to buy their own freedom. All while being so busy that they didn’t even have time to understand the science behind why this behavior is trashing the very home that makes our lives even possible.

If you're already really smart with your money, mindfully spending it based on your values, knowing the consequences / tradeoffs of spending that money, knowing it's not normal, and not being mystified about where your money is going, you're already living up to the principles this site was founded on. Simple as that. Any specific behavior you have within those guidelines is irrelevant.

*http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/authoritative-philosophy-of-mustachianism/ http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-makes-you-'officially'-mustachian/
MMM has said he has 3 main goals for this blog, which are the principles the site was founded on,
1. To make you rich so you can retire early.
2. To make you happy so you can properly enjoy your early retirement.
3. To save the whole Human Race from destroying itself through overconsumption of its over habitat.
For the record.
Title: Re: Worst Financial Advice (You've heard).
Post by: swick on May 16, 2016, 09:27:52 PM
MOD NOTE: Judging by the multiple complaints, this thread has run its course. Why don't yall step away from the screens and go make 100 bucks an hour, clean your house or go play outside.